Two other references also imply 2277 as Shady Sands destruction year: According to Vault 31's records, Hank transferred from Vault 31 in 2271. Hank transferred to marry Rose and have kids, so likely Lucy was born within a year. Lucy says she thought the sun in the vault was real until she was 6, because she remembered the real sun in Shady Sands. If she were born in 2271, then she stopped believing the sun was real in 2277. Birdie says she was 11 when Shady Sands was destroyed, which would make her 30 at the time of the show. The actress is 47, but I think she could plausibly pass for being ~30, but not for being 26 or younger to fit a 2281 or later date.
The first thing doesn't disprove much. I don't think anybody is disputing Rose, Lucy, and Norm were in Shady Sands in 2277. The question is whether Hank destroyed it in that same year. As for the second thing, Birdie survived the wasteland with radiation, raider attacks, and not much in the way of skin care. Go look at how people looked at age 26 before modern technology. They looked ooooooold.
@jaysondemers8145 "Go look at how people looked at age 26 before modern technology. They looked ooooooold." that is 100% not true. they looked 26. They have always looked 26. I have no idea where you got that crazy idea from. Maybe you are one of those confused people who does not understand how averages work and so you think nobody lived to be 90 in the past when they did. just facts like infant mortality, and dying to infections and such brought the AVERAGE down to 40-50. The human race has not changed for well over 100,000 years. and the vast majority people are not injecting their faces with chemicals to keep themselves young even today. Honestly, are you confusing mummies with how they looked when they were alive or what? where are you getting this crazy idea from? I've seen the very first pics ever taken and people looked exactly like they do now. are you confusing older styles of clothing with "looking old"?
The script for the "The End" states Maximus's age as 19 at the start of the show, and 6 when the fridge scene happened. That would mean he was born _IN_ 2277, given the date the show is set in is 2296. This means that Shady was in fact blown up six years after the stated date, specifically in 2283, two years after the events of New Vegas which occurred in 2281. Sources: 1. The wiki page for Shady Sands, third paragraph, sixth reference attached to the date 2283. 2. The wiki page for "The End" script in the notes section. 3. "The End" script itself, as provided by the wiki on "The End" scripts page.
Todd Howard says it happened "just after" the events of New Vegas, he specifically says they are cutting the timeline close. 2 years doesn't fit that description. Their ages could have been changed late in production as well. It's clear that at one point the intention was for the bomb to have gone off during the correct period of time in relation to the games. However, they clearly eventually decided to change that date. There was clearly a mistake made that has caused some wild convolution of the time. For no reason mind you. If it ends up being some big brained plot move that somehow works, whatever I'd eat my words. Although I'd still have to ask, why? Why is all of this necessary. Why didn't someone go "you know our set design and script kind of give the wrong implication"?
@@quintingigax5912especially early 2283 could reasonably be referred to as just after New Vegas. How long are the events of the game canonically anyway?
I think the obvious answer is that they intended it to be in 2277 to echo the Great War in 2077 with symmetry in the years. But after the show released they realized that that couldn’t happen so they hastily retconned the show.
Yeah even my comment is just a theory but Occom's Razor says, "the simplest solution is usually the correct one." If that's true Bethesda has really let themselves go in terms of narration. Little wonder Fallout London is making them look back.
I always assumed even when first watching the show that It was referencing a different date as the mushroom cloud is at the end of the arrow making me at least think initially that it was after the fall as the fall of a civilization is different from the destruction of a civilization so it probably had issues prior to the nuke going off which would make sense as they were spread pretty thin and had many issue during new Vegas so I wouldn’t put it out of the realm of possibility but yeah the arrow keeps going after the fall so it is likely separate dates or that’s how it was intended but it wasn’t properly conveyed
Note how many times Danse has to swap his fusion cores. Oh right never. That's just video game resource management logic for OUR "benefit" as the player.
They intentionally made fusion cores last a ridiculously short amount of time in fallout 4 for "Balance". Fusion cores are not something that is intended to be continually replaced, let alone often. As evidenced by the fact that you can run an entire prewar facility on a single fusion core for more than 200 years.
I see something different in the school locker scene: the book is not checked out in Nov 2276, rather it is due in Nov 2276. This implies that the book was already late in terms of return in 2277. Why wasn't it returned? We don't know. However, unless the bombs dropped in Nov 2276, this remains an unknowable problem. Hence, there is no reason to believe that the book wasn't returned in 2277 because of the bombs; the book was already past its due date in Nov 2276.
yeah, oxhorn is acting like a shady sands school just lasted all through the nuclear holocaust like a normal school. Making up reasons why it wasn't checked out for decades. More likely society was not stable enough for a school the entire time. so it probably didnt run every year. No kid is going to school when there is a gang of raiders living in it for example. I dont think taking back a school from criminals is gonna be top priority for the NCR if they are fighting just to survive some years.
I just thought... I could see it being a book either Lucy or Norm got in Shady Sands before Hank got them and they never returned the book, it remained there, in the locker, after they left. I mean, nov 2276 is close to 2277, it could still fit what Lucy says about the plague in 2277 in the Vault. I would bet on Norm, because he's not in Lucy's flashbacks of Shady Sands - maybe at that time he was a kid that enjoyed reading. And since we don't which book is, it could be one for kids.
Honestly they should just change the date on the chalkboard with a digital edit to make it say 2283 or 2281, whatever lines up. Easiest fix rather than they way they are handling it.
That would definitely clear everything up, but that would require them to admit that they made a mistake which is something they really don’t want to do.
@@Joshua-dh3uj agreed sadly. I mean game of thrones got rid of the coffee cup and the mandolorian got rid of jeans guy, it's simple and common but ya, not likely.
Why would Lucy's dad feel the need to nuke Shady Sands if it had already "fallen"? I bet they'll tell us that after the Shady Sands in the TV show was destroyed, the NCR just renamed another city to Shady Sands and made THAT the new capital. Continuity preserved.
That's possible, but wouldn't the creation and naming of a new capital be depicted in that series of historical events that is being taught in that classroom?
@tyler4418 I accept it as a difficult problem either way. It was never meant to be canon, but they decided to make it canon once they got into the project, from my understanding. Probably a small thing that slipped through, but I genuinely agree with you. The BEST solution I can come up with is the fact that in NV, I have an actual option to nuke both Caesar and the NCR, and we don't seem to see either faction around anymore. It loosely, VERY loosely, all works out with mostly only small errors that way.
They can say in season 2 that new capital of NCR was renamed to Shady Sands in honor of the destroyed city. And in New Vegas they were talking about this (new) Shady Sands.
That's ridiculous. Then why they did not show it in the history lesson a.k.a chalkboard drawing? In what year the *new* Shady Sands was found? and don't forget Todd literally said the the nuke was fell AFTER new vegas, then why there's TWO shady sands before the nuke (year 2081)?
@@eegoiiThe people in the vault have been isolated for over a decade at this point if the 2277 date is to be believed. So its reasonable to assume they wouldn't know about the new city.
I agree that it would be ridiculous just like you said, but Todd Howard has already tried to retcon this entire issue to preemptively get ahead of the continuity errors, so I wouldn’t be surprised if something like this would happen again in a similar fashion like the op stated. But then again, we don’t know how much creative control Todd Howard has over the show’s story elements. I want to ask; why does this lore continuity error even exist? Is it because the show’s writers made a little oopsie? Is it because the show writers didn’t take into account the deep lore of New Vegas because it wasn’t created by Bethesda (yet they are still willing to use assets as seen in the final shot of the show)? Is there a different reason entirely to tell a different storyline? That’s what I would like to ponder.
@@ez-bakeoven6797 What's the point assuming Shady Sands was fall and then WROTE "The Fall of Shady Sands" in 2077? If they knew Sands Sands fell in 2077, how did they not knowing about the new Shady Sands? The show is 15 year after the nuke (if we following the game's lore of the great war). And this is still not answering why there's 2 shady sands in 2081, if what Todd said is the canon.
I think the writers meant it to be 2277 and are now retconning after backlash. Which I am okay with. There is enough wiggle room for them to change their minds yet and correct things.
@Oxhorn If Lucy is 20, she was born in 2276. [Norm was going to be the older brother.] Lucy felt the warmth of the sun at 6, so 2282 and she had to be there a while because Lucy has a vivid memory of the warmth and sunlight. [HOW DID SHE GET SO GOOD AT SHOOTING????? NOTHING IN THE VAULT BUT STATIONARY TARGETS"????' played golf since i was 5~, you get good quick at a young age'] Fall of shady sands in 2277 seems correct. Rose got Lucy and Norm to Shady Sands in 2277. The fall NOT the impact. If Rose took Norm and Lucy at such a young age to not remember. Hank probably gave Rose a ghoul enhancer thing to keep her quiet, because he couldnt kill her. Hank had to find a bomb and find waste landers to help. So give him a year or two, to get everything going. The bomb dropped on Shady Sands around 2282-2283 I wanna look at the dates for vault 31 again to come up with more or how long the plague lasted. ALSO ALSO that timid nerd guy always with Betty is sus.
My only problem with this is that Lucy is clearly not a 1 year old baby in 2277. She's shown as a girl approximately 4-8 years old. Otherwise I am in agreement that the search for the children and the destruction by Hank are two separate events spread out by some time because it isn't like Hank had a nuclear weapon just laying around. Use the plague to excuse the search is one thing, but the plague didn't go on for 4 years, so they have to be two different events. The other thing is Lucy's memories as a child are suspect, but if she spends 4 years in Shady Sands from child to young lady her memories would be a lot more vivid and hard to reconcile with vault life. She could not have been in Shady Sands very long.
2277 could also be unrelated to Lucy, Hank and the nuking entirely and be just stating the beginning of the end. 2277 was the date of the First Battle for Hoover Dam.
Warhammer 40k has taught me to not nit-pick "exact" dating, as even the people writing stuff down are only human and prone to getting numbers wrong. Trying to accurately timeline things like historic England is an absolute riot of missing years, legitimate reboots of the whole thing, missing months, missing decades, all because the Earth doesn't perform an exact 365 day orbit, much less an exact 24 hour rotation, and God help your calculations if you are on a different planet, or stuck on a planet that is also stuck in the warp, where time has no meaning. Back on Earth though, these microscopic errors compound literally on the daily and once you expand stuff by 200+ years it becomes a real problem. With this being said, I don't blame historians for being off as much as 10 years when trying to timestamp stuff with a pip boy that may or may not have been turned off for several years, and you only have to miss a few years of no one counting for it to be 2280+ instead of 2277. And this can be a local problem as well for following the paper-trail, in a world that has precious little paper.
@@fullmetalswcc was using it as an example where just adding an extra 0 every here and there can cause massive problems later. One glitchy pip-boy later and some people's 2277 was actually 2279, stuff like that. Most stand alone computers have a wildly differing idea of how to count time, so much so that we "as a planet" choose one of 5 sources to sync up with every now and again, usually several times a day.... For modern GPS to function, this is done hundreds of times a day. 200 years is a particularly annoyingly large gap in such a fragile system of measurement.
@@fullmetalswcc A lot did indeed happen in 2277, its not the first time historians have lumped stuff together under one, perhaps their last, ledger. We never sorted this batch out because oh crap incoming! Half of the joy "of" Fallout is trying to piece together a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense into a narrative you can digest.
I think the Fall of Shady Sands isn't exactly one event but a combination of many events. You have the battles for hoover dam, corruption in the government, Kimball being elected, the creation of The Divide that severely damaged ncr routes. Since vault 4 had many survivors of shady sands I like to think that a lot of the ncr citizens were leaving the corruption of the city thus making Shady Sands fall
I agree. It says on the chalkboard the fall of Shady Sands in 2277. This could have taken some time, years even. But then there is an arrow pointing to a mushroom cloud. To me this indicates that some time has passed after 2277 when Shady Sands was nuked.
@@Salemchevy Everything seems to be gone even the Boneyard is gone... Theres nothing but a Fallout 4 fucking shanty town and a bunch of raiders... They only destroyed the NCR because people liked it more then Fallout 4s factions
@@inzyniertv9305 my dude not being rude but you do know where the hub is located right? Heck even new Reno is no where near the boneyard. While yes shady sands is gone doesn’t mean the ncr is gone. Could be they left the lower part of California because they lost most of their forces. Heck another example we saw of factions coming back was the enclave. They were basically gone on the west coast until this show. Respectfully
Think of “the fall” like how we talk about Rome. There’s many dates you could call the “fall of Rome” but Rome didn’t cease to exist on that exact date.
But if you said the fall of Rome happened like 50 years before it actually fell, that would be odd. I wouldn't assume you meant "the beginning of the decline of rome" If you said it fell
I definitely saw it like this originally. Maybe something massive happened on the dated bit which people called 'the fall' then the final nail in the coffin was the bomb. Someone nonchalantly could have just put the drawing or as a 'well I don't need to explain it any further'
I 100% believe that, when making the show, they intended 2277 to be the year Shady Sands was destroyed. But I also think the writers noticed their mistake shortly after the series started airing, and are now coming up with solutions to fix the lore. Todd has already confirmed that solution won't be decanonizing New Vegas, so I suppose we'll see what they come up with. I think the best explanation so far is the "Fall of Shady Sands" being a more societal fall. The occupation of Vegas taking so much manpower and resources that it started a downward spiral in the core territories. If we add the House ending to New Vegas on top of that, it would explain how a single nuke destroyed the NCR. It wasn't the single cause, more the straw that broke the camel's back. The quarantine excuse still works if Shady Sands is destroyed in 2281, as the Vault staying in lockdown for 4 years is believable enough and would just mean Hank and Betty took a long while to find out where Rose went. TL;DR This is a lore mistake, but Fallout is no stranger to lore mistakes. It'll get patched up soon enough.
This right here, except I think they didn't even notice until the show released. Seems like they just picked that "reclamation day" would fall 200 years after bomb dropped and went with it. If they had caught the mistake anytime before the show's release, they could have digitally edited the date on the blackboard, and nobody would have been the wiser. The fact that they didn't says to me that they didn't catch it. Coupled with how lackluster (imo) Todd's and the writers' attempts to retcon the show's lore based on this little mistake have been, it paints a picture that they had to scramble to make up for not having noticed this little detail even after having written New Vegas directly into the plot. Like you said, it'll get sorted out, but it won't be pretty from a writing perspective (it'll be hard to disguise the retcon) because they didn't catch it in time.
So, why wouldn't the destruction of the actual city be important enough to date? Societal fall - yes; city nuked -no? That sounds even more ludicrous. We say Rome ended in 476 AD; we don't call all the things leading up to it as the year of the "fall of Rome" and ignore 476.
Exactly. They obviously made a mistake in the writing and screwed up the date, then did this whole song-and-dance later to try and cover up their error. That said, I think it's pretty ridiculous to assume that this means they wanted to de-canonize New Vegas because Todd Howard is a big meanie who hates Obsidian and their work. You could certainly argue that it demonstrates a lack of deep familiarity on the part of the show writers with the New Vegas storyline. It's also pretty clear, though, that the whole idea of blowing up Shady Sands to begin with was about "resetting" the timeline back to the classic Fallout setup, i.e. irradiated, bombed-out landscapes and very little in the way of progress or safety in any direction. They chose to set the show in Los Angeles, probably for the standard reasons many shows are set in California--they're often filmed there, after all, so it's cheaper and easier to just set them there too. And with California being the original setting for Fallout, it makes sense if you want to capture that classic Fallout feel. Nobody--especially new fans who aren't that familiar with the games--wants to see a post-apocalyptic nuclear wasteland story set in a California that is no longer a post-apocalyptic nuclear wasteland. How exactly would that work, and how would you make it feel like Fallout? I'm a big fan of New Vegas, and I was initially confused and disappointed by the state of the NCR in the show. But I get why they did it, and I'm very happy that they're still centering New Vegas for season 2. Given what they've done so far to tease Robert House as an important character, I'm fairly confident they're just going to canonize the House ending of New Vegas. After all, the House ending is the only one where he would've survived to be encountered by Hank in season 2, and I know they're going to want to portray that moment. I think they intend to use the NCR's loss in the Mojave war as part of the backstory for why the NCR has either ceased to exist or become irrelevant in southern California. The NCR was a lot more than Shady Sands, and even if their capital was destroyed, they should have more of a presence there than they do in the show. It's unclear if Moldaver's group is really under the direction of the NCR, or if they're just former NCR citizens who have taken up their old banner. The show describes a bunch of refugees from the NCR winding up at Vault 4, and the former NCR people there seem to revere Moldaver specifically as the savior of their lost nation... you'd think they wouldn't do that if the nation still existed somewhere. If the NCR was already weakened by overextension and catastrophic losses in the Mojave, the collapse of their entire project after the loss of Shady Sands starts to make a lot more sense.
I absolutely agree. This feels like so much of a retcon and we actually have strong evidence of their lack of care for canon just in the fact that they place Shady Sands next to the boneyard. We all know that it is actually closer to New Vegas in Nevada. I suspect they are going to rush to fix this by placing a "new" Shady Sands in Nevada. All the GECK's in the world would not stop the nuclear storms coming off the boneyard (as seen in F4 in the commonwealth). We witnessed the nukes hitting LA so we know it was at least as bad as the Commonwealth. The whole point of the real Shady Sands location was the lack of significant radiation due to fallout.
Ox: I like how you give the benefit of the doubt and look at the details rather than just immediately right something off as incompetence. Too many other content creators go straight to toxic negativity to get the subscribers riled up. I appreciate your approach.
My biggest issue with the lore is the date 2277 and Even worst is the setting. The geography is all messed up. Shady sands is about 5 to 10 miles east of Yosemite national park. That’s 419 miles from Santa Monica. Another MAJOR Issue is the Master in 2161! HELLO vault 33, 32, 31 is right there in the L.A boneyard! The master had no problem finding prime Normals stock. The BOS is Poorly written
Yeah I have issues with the locations of 33, 32, and 31, but there were a lot of undiscovered vaults for centuries so... who knows. The BOS is perfectly written, though. I have never had any illusions that the BOS is made up of zealots and jerks with superiority complexes. "Technofetishists" I believe House calls them.
@@jaysondemers8145 as far as I can see, Richard Grey came from a Vault. He knows what a Vault looks like. Not to mention the Massive Vault 33 Doors 🚪 saying “hey right here you horse’s ass come on get me” the BOS tiles are wrong. Squire is a Rank Given to children of the BOS, Maximus Rank should be initiate. Enough time has Passed for him to earn the Rank of Initiate. That’s clearly the Prydwen over the barracks. As far as the characters of main three. They’re written well and I enjoy Maximus as the evil character. This last point I observed this must be a hybrid chapter mixed with the Mojave chapter and Reformed chapter of Maxon
@@r.s_vault8180didn’t the Master send out Super Mutants to find vaults? I feel like they had to stumble across them. They never mention that the Master knew the location of vaults. If the show was bad I wouldn’t like the locations of the vaults in the show either, or that their entrances are on the surface. But, the show was good, so that’s something I can over look. 😂😂
@@eriksand9262 I can’t agree with that, Lore and timelines are very important even so that the show runners makes the show “Canon” to the timeline of the games. The Main Reason the Master wanted to get the Vault Dweller So Bad because he was a Prime Normal. Mind you Necropolis is Bakersfield CA, Cooper Howard brought it up in the Show. Super Mutants are first found in Necropolis, then The Children are at the HUB, The Boneyard, addiytum where the Blades are nested. Wait too long they end up in Junktown and Ultimately Shady Sands. Bet your last bottle cap that they would most definitely Found vault 33,32,31 in they’re own backyard in the Boneyard.
now, ive my own issues with the show, and after i first saw it i had the same issue with how the BOS was portrayed, but i heard something rather simple that explains literally everything, and makes for an interesting set up for later seasons. the names of the BOS members are the give away. every big, old, faction in fallout has distinct naming conventions. BOS are very English, names like roger or owyn... but the chapter we see in the show, all of them have Latin names... Roman names... the elder is named Quintus ffs. only faction named like that is Cesar's Legion. so if, after their defeat Legate Quintus took his troops and signed up with the brotherhood to get access to their tech for the sake of his revival plan.... suddenly everything that chapter does makes way more sense. so at least that might have a good explanation. ive got nothing for the rest though lol. still riddled with bugs in typical bethesda fashion, show or not lol.
Im gonna read it as there was some kind of back and forth in 2077 hence the weight lost (cos hank wasn't used to the outside world), and book not being borrowed. he got lucy and her brother back to the vault and made a quarantine excuse to stop lucy seeing her mom then lied to her about mom dying. maybe mom stayed in shady sands but after a few years of back and forth, hank bombed shady sands due to rising tensions between the places such as more and more people being made away of the vault's location.
Ox's passion on this lore issue is the way I feel when I see people say Solas was a bad guy in Dragon Age. He was only dubbed the Trickster God by the other mage elves because he acted like he was one of them, but was secretly/not secretly stealing their slaves and setting them free. That's like saying Harriet Tubman is a bad person. Also, he sealed away his people cuz the power was going to their heads, but now regrets it because elves are still treated as 2nd class citizens. He just wants elves to be treated well, both by the powerful of his kind, and by other species.
Love you Oxhorn, but 9:35 Lucy only says "people starved, my mother included...", she doesn't say her mom died of starvation in 2277. Your logic makes a lot of sense, but her mom could've survived the 2277 great plague, and maybe after that she found evidence of Hank's involvement in the Vault-Tec conspiracy, therefore she left the vault with her kids and found Shady Sands.
I agree with the others who say that a second location was renamed to Shady Sands after the original was nuked. That was my head cannon the entire time.
Unfortunately the date in the library book is in no way conclusive proof that Shady Sands was destroyed in 2277, it may be a case that the book was taken home after being checked out in 2276, left at home and forgotten about then found by a sibling of the person that checked it out in 2281, and returned to the school and placed in the locker with the intention of returning it to the library at the first opportunity, personally I do think the 2277 date was chosen because the producers 'forgot' about Fallout New Vegas because it wasn't a Bethesda game.
I'm more in line with thinking that 2277's "Fall" has a LOT more to do with Muldaver's quest for Cold Fusion than it does Hank's revenge. Muldaver is clearly in Shady Sands in 2277 but is not any kind of leader there that we understand. However, the survivors in Vault 4 worship her like some kind of prophet or goddess. What the hell was Muldaver actually doing in Shady Sands? What could she possibly have done to draw such a cult like status? What connection did she have already to Rose and / or Vault 33? If, as Oxhorn points out, Rose and Muldaver have a relationship, how the heck did that start when Rose was in Vault 33 for most of her life and Muldaver was in Shady Sands? There is a LOT more to the story of Muldaver than we've been told and based on the terrible things she did in order to get Cold Fusion to work (not even to GET REVENGE ON HANK! She just wanted her lifelong dream to be fulfilled!) leads me to believe she is not a good person by any stretch of the imagination.
I feel like the bigger continuity error for me is the fact that the great war apparently happened in the late morning/early afternoon in CA despite the fact it should have been at 6 something in the morning
I don't recall that they speak the date out loud so they should just edit the scene and change the date. That kind of stuff has already been done in other shows
Did you watch the video? The entire video is about how this was specifically mentioned and corroborated by multiple different parties within the show and it's directly relevant to the core plot of the show.b
Yes, I've seen the video. Check the comment from @LegitTapeSplicer. They can edit the show to fix this, just like the games -- at least for the people that haven't bought it physically
@@afunnymouth6449 Yes but at no point does anybody ever state in the show, not even on the chalkboard, that Shady Sands was for sure nuked in 2277. The Plague story is real but does not directly mention anything about nuclear destruction of Shady Sands and the book is a nothingburger considering how often that thing has been checked out and not returned for YEARS. The chalkboard is the only thing people can point at as a possible date for the nuking of Shady Sands but even that gives enough wiggle room to explain away.
Very convincing. I think at this point the only thing that could explain all this away is if there were some alternate calendars that existed between NCR west and New Vegas. It seems like an error on the producers part but it is still hard to believe its not intentional in some way
There is misinformation, disinformation and stuff that is outright wrong in both our timeline and theirs. I feel like there is being too much made of this and if everything is too perfect it’s unrealistic. I may be the only fallout fan that couldn’t care less about this date.
18:44 You are right. Thet cant be 2 dates for same event. 81 is the Canonical date. 1- show will reveal some info nuclear explosion only hapened after 77 or 2-show 77 is wrong and they will not fix it.
Going by your video, I think the dates in the show are just mistakes and they had to immediately correct it. Also they’re probably rewriting some dates for Season 2 after the online discussions about the timeline. I wish they got it right the first time but still at least they’re trying to fix it. I’ll wait for season 2 to explain more. Plus I’m glad they didn’t pull a Star Wars Acolyte. Those people just stuck with massive lore/timeline errors and insult the fanbase for pointing it out.
@@nickwash3r3 “Mistake” as in they made a wrong decision with the dates during development. That’s my point. Probably didn’t double check the lore for some details, they released the show with some date mistakes, and then only double checked the timeline after the fans talk about NV & Shady Sands . Plus If they really wanted to “remove the NV cannon” then they would have stuck with it but thankfully they didn’t. They immediately confirmed that the explosion happened after NV. That’s why Todds interview about the show struck me as a “whoops but we corrected it” moment. Kind of like how Sam Witwer mentioned that Dave Filoni forgot that Padme met Anakins mother in Ep1. It feels similar to that. But again, I’m just glad that they at least try to fix it and not throw political stuff at the fans.
@@Steel-101 There was some pretty step backlash over just a Date. They back-peddled due to pressure... which I will concur is nice. Only reason I have to hope we see a Mr. House controlled Vegas.
I think this is just one of those mistakes that happens with all adaptations of books or games to shows and movies is some things are overlooked to make more impactful scenes or deeper visuals for the viewer. Don't get me wrong there is definitely something wrong with the date change and it should definitely be addressed at a higher level than it is, but you need to defend your disbelief just a little bit nothing's going to be completely perfect. I am still sad to hear something more impactful in this universe was overlooked but at least it wasn't as bad as like I don't know saying the NCR never existed or the brotherhood of steel are communist.
I'm glad you're still talking about this - not that it's the most important thing in the world but it bugs me, too, especially considering anytime this issue is brought up, you have a lot of apologists and myopic folks (or folks who simply do not care) attempt to bury it with scorn or mockery. Like, why can't we discuss how this is an issue? I love the show, too! We all do! We just want the lore to make sense and to be consistent; I understand that sticking to lore can be limiting creatively, as that is one extreme, as is the other where lore is completely ignored or ridiculed by showrunners and writers who hate the source material, but Fallout (the show) managed to find a really great balance somewhere in the middle. Why, then, did this slip? And more importantly, is there a way to fix it without muddying things further?
I still think fall of shady sands means decline. 2277 is when the first war with the legion happens. This war could have rocked the city. I imagine political infighting, riots as loved ones were drafted and died fighting Caesar. The book could have been left there because the student is leaving with their family to move to the Mojave as an emergency draft. The plague of 2277 could have been the excuse Lucy's mom used to leave the vault initially. 2277 Lucy lives in shady sands. 2281 or 2282 hank finds her and nukes shady sands when her mom doesn't leave. Iirc the show takes place in 2296 this means if she was born in 2277 in the city she is 19 during the show. If she was born in the vault still she could be older.
This makes sense to me. Maybe this is what they'll go with. I just hope they didn't decide to also collapse New Vegas as a city before we see it in the show.
I'd assume that other members of vault 33 who originally came from vault 31 probably covered for Hank during his quest to return with his family. It could have taken awhile to find shady sands then recon the town and find his family then either sabotage the nuclear reactor powering the town or find a nuke transport it to the town to blow it up after his failed attempt to convince Rose to return so he grabbed Lucy and Norm (being kids they'd go with him without many issues) and ran back to the vault 12:39 Moldaver say's Hank "burned that city to the ground" . this is just a theory. so what if he set a fire to distract people so he could grap Lucy and Norm but the fire got out of control and the NCR wanting to save face and not broadcast there embarrassment that there capital city was gone so easily that it was quietly transferred the capital somewhere else and chose not to tell those on the frontlines whom were already demoralised. And the nuke was someone else entirely
11:00 She didn’t talk about her mother’s death but about having to quarantine with others regarding that book in the locker. The student could have left it in the locker to rot out of laziness, or they might have been killed before the bombs fell. In Shady Sands, as we know from F2, weapons were prohibited; they could only be drawn and had to be in a holster, so murders were still relatively common, I assume. It would help a lot if the ages of the characters were mentioned; I’ve seen the series three times and I still don’t know exactly how old they are. 14:10 Vault had more exits since Lee Moldaver entered through Vault 32, and we know there are more entrances; presumably, Vault 31 also has its own entrance. I could explain these things further, but the board from Vault 4 is really a problem to explain. Maybe Todd could clarify that the fall of Shady Sands on the board in 2277 was actually a political or economic collapse caused by the war in the Mojave Desert near New Vegas, where they defeated Caesar’s Legion in the first war and also defeated the Brotherhood of Steel, which lost a huge army. I know the Brotherhood was defeated with massive casualties, which could have caused immense chaos in the economy. At least that’s how I would interpret it, because there’s an arrow shown pointing right toward the atomic mushroom since 2277, but the board is still a problem. They should release a revised version of the part where instead of "The Fall of Shady Sands," it says something like "Economic Crisis" or something similar. So my summary could be that in 2277 there might have been an economic crisis caused by the war against the Legion and the Brotherhood in the Mojave Desert, and the exact date of the bomb's fall is something the survivors don’t really remember.
I Love Oxhorn but he feels like he's adding his own facts, making random assumptions, and putting words in people's mouth in this. I think the problem is he keeps reading it as 2277 is WHEN it was bombed, but thats NOT what it says, it say SS FELL then, not that it was BOMBED then. Those are two different events. They specifically do NOT state a date for the bombing. That is how even timelines work. He's making up his own logic. SS Fell in 2277, thats why the book wasnt returned, the Vault issue could have been when Hank and others went to FIND the nukes. it doesnt mean they were also used at that time. It's a post war Library, there are many reasons a kid may not have returned a book. And the other dates do not even have a 4th number. So, it could have been normal for that book to be out 4-5 years post war. IE, a kid taking it out in 5th grade and not returning it till 10th or 12th Lucy says her mother "starved" not "Starved to death". That could have been when her mother took Lucy from the vault to get food from the surface.
@@fullmetalswcc that’s not how a time line works or the fall of shady sands would’ve been above the nuke it’s not it has a passage of time arrow to the nuke meaning it happened at a later date
As far as what the series shows, there are boxes on the chalkboard with dates connected by lines. Dates of significance leading to a final box labeled “2277 The fall of shady sands” with a line FROM that box leading to a mushroom cloud. Even the diagram shows that the nuclear explosion happened AFTER 2277.
The first time I saw the show I always assumed the fall was just referring to a decline and the nuking was later as the arrow is pointing onward like it was at a later point it wasn’t like the mushroom cloud was directly over the fall of shady sands is was pointing to a later date
There’s a year listed as the fall of shady sands, and pinning the idea that it’s not possible based on new Vegas?? Vegas is in Nevada and Shady Sands is in California, so why is it so hard to take in new information that the place we didn’t experience during the game has its own issues. And the problem you and a lot of people are having is you can’t read correct? The year listed is not beneath the nuke it’s beneath the fall. After the fall they were nuked, the date you’re upset with doesn’t retcon anything! How is it possible? The NCR is a faction capable of moving around and without the courier’s help they kinda suck. And also again when the game takes place it’s not destroyed it’s falling apart piece by piece probably because of the NCR’s terrible terrible government and politics.
@@fullmetalswcc we know that Shady Sands “used” to be the capital. Not because it was nuked, but when the city fell it was no longer the capital of the NCR, it’s listed on the sign as the “First” capital not the current one, and why would they quote on quote let it fall they didn’t. The fall happened due to a political power that is seriously selfish and corrupt at times. Without the Courier’s support they are kinda dicks, and that’s not just counting the legion issue, they have a lot of problems with their leaders too. We know in the show the NCR has fallen, due to stronger factions like the Brotherhood, and the locals don’t seem to care much for the NCR, even locals in new Vegas didn’t care for them! They are not the glorified saviors fallout fans make them out to be, they are just another fallen empire in the wasteland. Lastly, these are all events taking place in singular states, these factions are big and spread out it’s not like these are the only events taking place, there’s more to the story!
@@thenamesej9674. All of what you just said make sense if you ignore all of Fallout: New Vegas. Because, if it true that in 2277 Shady Sands began to fall. The legion would have took the Hover Damn.
@@fullmetalswcc the issue is the date, but the date is listed as the fall. New Vegas can happen while the former capital begins to fall apart. Residents of New Vegas wouldn’t know because of the lack of communication, the legion fight, and the big final takeover for Hoover. The canon ending is looking like house wins, we know the legion won’t survive long, we know the brotherhood ends up growing to be in theory the strongest faction. Why is it so hard to accept that after New Vegas Vault tech nuked Shady sands and during New Vegas the city began falling apart. The idea that the NCR falls apart is pretty clear all throughout Vegas like I said even the people of the strip and freeside are iffy and or want nothing to do with the NCR. Like I’m a fan of the faction but it’s illogical to say it breaks canon especially when there are multiple endings. It’s even a possiblity that season 2 starts and fucking Yes Man is in charge of the Vegas strip. The NCR has fallen in California and are rooted elsewhere.
@@thenamesej9674. No, the Legion was ruthless, and the only reason why they stopped at Vegas was the NCR. If the Capital was failing the NCR could not deal with the Legion.
So the video game guy and the TV show folks don't follow their own canon? I don't know how you can be suprised....they don't follow their own canon when it gets in the way.
What i don't get is why they couldn't have just set the show 5 years later? That makes me think its either a mistake they made twice and refuse to go back on or that they for some reason wanted to intentionally fuck up the new vegas lore. I doubt they would do that even if people at bethesda dislike new vegas.
Let's be honest here if they do screw up the timeline and wipe out Fallout New Vegas a large chunk of the people won't watch the season 2😂 remember this is the error where companies are spending 200 million and losing because of creative Integrity AKA The Joker two😂
@@jaysondemers8145 hope you're right but I honestly think the writer team didn't even try playing the games I actually found out some unique dialogue where you can confront the master and he can communicate with the lieutenant via telepathy now I think there's no possible chance that the master would not have found these three vaults
I still think the biggest problem the show creates is location, how is shady sands now located in the LA boneyard this completely changes canon as now vault 13 is no where near shady sands neither are groups like the great khans, how are they going to explain the location change and why didn’t they just use a settlement like Additum or any other settlement already in LA
Dá sa to ešte zachrániť v roku 2277 mohla byť ekonomická kríza spôsobená vojnov proti légií a Bratstvu v Mohavskej púšti. Viem, že Bratstvo bolo porazené s masívnymi stratami, NCR sa to podarilo iba vďaka masívnej presile a vojakov používali ako potravu pre dela nebrali ohľad na straty čo mohlo spôsobiť obrovský chaos v ekonomike. A presný dátum pádu bomby si pozostalí moc nepamätajú a ekonomicka kríza bola akurát nesprávne označená ako pád Shady Sands od tade ide šipka vpravo na atómový hríb pretože si pozostalý nepamätajú presný dátum tej katastrofy. Vojenské konflikty, akými boli tie medzi NCR a Cezarovou Legiou, určite mohli mať dramatický dopad na ekonomiku a politickú stabilitu regiónu. To že si pozostalí nemuseli presne pamätať na dátum pádu bomby, môže byť tiež zaujímavé. V chaotických podmienkach po vojne by si mnoho ľudí mohlo zamieňať udalosti a stratiť prehľad o čase. A ako sme si všimli pozostalý obyvatelia Shady Sands aj stratili určitú intelektuálnu úroven keďže si vytvorili sektu začali robiť rituáli a považovali Lee Moldaver za boha naznačuje psychologický úpadok obyvateľstva čo by bolo tiež logické pretože väčšina obyvateľov mohli byť v dobe katastrofy deti či teenageri
lol, its kinda funny (and impressive) how ox is saying "they made a mistake and todd was lying in his statement to save face without admitting fault" without actually saying it
Shady Sands was the “First Capital of NCR” hence the fall of the first capital began in 2277 (maybe due to the politics of taking in vault dwellers) and a new, not named capital risened after. The nuclear destruction happened four years later in a broken capital city that probably had uprisings due to those politics. Muldiver prominence arose during that time as before that she was just working on her new relationship with Rose.
House provided the nuke to destroy Shady Sands and that is why Hank knows the way and visits New Vegas at the last episode. He lost weight on his travels to Robert house, maybe he ran into Caesars Legion and was imprisoned???
@@shawnlee3756 Why would House destroy the NCR he literally said : "the NCR are my best client" He want the NCR as an economic partner, the NCR pay for water and electricity and their citizens get to enjoy the Strip. And why would Caesar Legion be between the NCR and Vegas they couldn't go far past the Colorado River unless it's a small raiding group. The showrunner just wanted to nuke the NCR to get a lawless/far-west ambiance for the show which is a shitty way to do it.
@@TheNesstis showrunner? i think you mean you mean bethesda and their wasteland obsession. fallout 2 had them rebuilding, but the second betheda took the reigns in 3 it was back to desolate wastelands. thats just how they like it.
As far as the timeline goes, I have always said exactly what you said at 16:55. Long story short, the board started off as a timeline, but when the person came to the explosion, they pointed to it after the date because they don't know the date of the explosion. The other two points you raised are interesting. The library book could have been left in the locker for that period of time because the person who checked it out forgot about it, unlike the people who checked it out before them who returned it responsibly. The point about the canibilism scene is really interesting and a strong theory that I haven't heard before. At the same time, all of that could have happened after 2277. Also lucy could have had that memory as an older girl as you mentioned. I expect a flashback to this event will turn up in season 2 and I'm looking forward to it.
The wording on the blackboard is "the fall of shady sands" which then has an arrow pointing toward the nuclear detonation, which would indicate to me that shady sands "fell" in 2277 but was actually destroyed later. Otherwise there wouldn't need to be that second arrow. That could signify an end of Shady Sand's importance within the NCR. It could also be the survivor's own view of how things were within the city, for example if they felt disillusioned in some way with the government. We don't know much about the survivors of Shady Sands, their history, or why so many survived at all beyond the magic of the magical refrigerator saving Maximus.
That still doesn't make sense. They dated eveything else why not date the bomb? And the NPCs in fallout New Vegas still speak of shady sands as safe. The NCRs politicians and "top brass" only send recruits into the Mojave. They do this because the Brahman Barons want the veterans soldiers to stay in ncr territory to keep the roads safe. NPC's like Jess the cook outside of querry junction left NCR controlled space because she was bored of all the rules and laws We're told nothing of shady sands falling in fallout new vegas which takes place 4 years after the supposed fall
No. When we're talking about the fall of Constantinople, we're referring to a very specific event that took place in 1453. What we in the show is a timeline, not a flow chart.
A writer wanted to use 2277 because it's an important year in fallout. Nobody caught the error until after the show came out, so Todd retconned it. Overthinking this to the point Ox is isn't gonna result in anything.
Maybe some unexplained tension between them and the Brotherhood started another war in 2277 and some damage caused the NCR to move the seat of government marking the “fall”. Moldaver remains in charge of the city and keeps it running as good as she can and then some time in 2280-81 Rose runs off with the kids and causes Hank and Betty to pursue them and in the process a deal is struck with the Enclave (shown to still exist in Ep 1) to make the Shady Sands nuclear event possible. And while the NCR may not be shown at their full might they’re still shown to exist so obviously they packed and moved to preserve continuity of government. Probably a stretch. Todd just doesn’t want to admit that he and the show producers had no rapport whatsoever.
Except there is nothing in the lore that says that, and the brotherhood didn't start any war in 2277 as that was the battle of helios one, causing massive casualties to the BoS and forcing them underground. And we would have seen lore evedence of the move of the capital in FNV
Lets be real, the writers used the word fall who all educated ppl understand that if used to describe a city or nation, it means that it is in the proces of decline not that it has been destroyed. Thats why Todd had to clear it up since it was missunderstood by the video games educated population who think the fall of rome or greece or spain or germany or any of those was inmediate.
Its perfectly reasonable to assume the fall meant the nuclear detonation in 2277 for the simple fact that there is no date for the bomb. Hell, it still dosent explain why Shady sands is in LA in the first place
Just my personal headcanon, the way I explained this problem was the nuclear explosion happened in 2077, but because of the cold fusion and power being restored to shady sands that shady sands remained the capital of the NCR. Also, maybe the plague of 2077, Lucy was already back in the vault and the destruction of Shady Sands was because Lucy's mother was trying to retrieve her children from Hank. As a last resort from having the Vault's plan ruined, Hank and Betty destroyed Shady Sands. This could make Lucy older than being a child. My only problem with this I think is I'm actually not quite certain the current date within the show. Maybe I've just overlooked it. But if the show takes place before the events of New Vegas then the power being restored to shady sands would mean the seat of government is still in shady sands. Maybe it's too simplistic of an explanation but that's my personal headcanon. Someone please correct me if I'm way off.
This is why I watch you. Every time I say something about the date or the LA boneyard everybody thinks I’m being negative and not just settling for new content. Fallout NV needed a sequel not a show that messed up the lore
Місяць тому+5
I believe that NV is the weakest in the series(not counting 76) mostly gameplay wise but I agree. A sequel with a new engine and the same if not better writing could have been the closest to a perfect fallout experience.
NV is awesome but it doesn’t need a sequel(NV2). Let’s go to a different state. Let’s take a break from the East Coast and the West. Let’s do Texas or Louisiana.
@@andrewshrader6454 I’m in the Texas group. I’m a Texan(born in San Antonio & raised in Alvin/Galveston). Plus NV does mention some NCR forces in Texas. Still it would be cool to have some Apocalypse Gumbo in New Orleans lol 😂
Unless due to the nature and lies from vault tec the chalk board is deliberately misleading, hank and family came from one of the other adjoining vaults, one other thing i was wondering is what happened to all that power from Helios one ? being as the ncr beat the brotherhood and took over the plant, but does that mean the ncr still could not figure out how to use it ?
Yeah, sorry. Oxhorn, I like you, but you're way too stuffed up with your own importance in how you see your intepretation of the date as "right" and the showrunner's as 'an error". There's simply not enough information available to support your postulation that this is a "mistake" and the showrunners screwed up. It's based on certain assumptions that were promoted by fans, but never actually confirmed or supported by the *actual evidence* in the show or games. I think perhaps a little bit of humility regarding your position might be more appropriate.
Yeah, sorry. Logic supports Oxhorn. There are too many things that have to be re-interpreted to make the date on the chalkboard make sense including assuming that the people in the vault are stupid and don't know how calendars work.
You dont think school could have been cancled in 76? You cant imagine any reason why school would be canceled a year before the documented 'fall of shady sands'?
My opinion on the matter is quite simple. Todd the Toad, with his over-inflated ego, could never stand the fact that someone else made a better Fallout game than he did and now he's finally got the chance to remove his hated Fallout New Vegas from the canon and tell his own version. I also fully expect that the second season of Fallout will further ensure that New Vegas is removed from the canon. After that, they can just stand there and say that the game is already so old and no longer fits into the current timeline. That's it. The man is a notorious liar and we saw that again in this interview.
Better explanation: No one caught the continuity error until it was too late and fans started freaking out. Todd did some hasty damage control and tried to retcon things, instead of just admitting they messed up the date. Makes for some interesting theory content, though.
The way I interpreted it is... the year on the chalkboard does not represent... the destruction (bombing) of Shady Sands. Personally, I am in the camp that is saying... the fall of Shady Sands began in the year of 2277. Sometime after that, is when it was destroyed. Again, that is my interpretation, and I am sticking to it. That is, until the powers that be behind the show, say otherwise.
We take in the information we are given in a show as part of the show itself. Its not hard to imagine that they kept track of time since it was created in 2186. So, yeah they did keep track of the years, it would be nonsensible for former shady sands residents to not know when it fell, but 4 years shy of the date would imply some discrepancy, given that real survivors were alive after the fall of shady sands. So, we are stuck with a divergent time-line at best. At worst, they stopped keeping track of time, which would put a whole different impact on the lore. Since it is both based on the game and written as an extension of the games, I find it very difficult to think people did not know before the fall that the year was wrong, considering the scope the NCR had.
So, you believe that Hank was able to walk to Shady Sands, get his children, walk back to the Vault to secure his kids, plan, and then destroy a city in less than a year? Also, food for thought, Hank and Betty could easily leave the vault without the vault residents knowing by lying and saying there was an Overseer's meeting in vault 31, then exited from there.
@SuperCasperman quarantine would have been after he got his kids back to the vault. Lucy clearly remembers the quarantine, suggesting it happened after they returned, not before.
@jaysondemers8145 and yet, I have memories from a super young age, 2 in fact, and my father looked at me and said, you remember that? I'm in my 40s btw. So no, not unreliable at all.
@@jvazacas your dad could have said it wasn't true and talked about something else to cover what really happened, this is what happened with Lucy which makes her memories unreliable when talking about what she remembers from her childhood
I think the show runner really liked the date 2277 for the fall of shady sands built everything around it but neglected to check if that would cause any problems in the time line. unfortunately even most people who really liked fallout don’t know the lore down to the dates. the only commonly mentioned date in FNV is 2277 unless you obviously look at your pip-boy. So they may have mistaken the date for the first battle of hover dam for the second. Hence the building so much around it.
@@jonyoung4793 if shady sands fell in 2277 it would have 100% been mentioned in New Vegas Several characters talk about Shady Sands in the present tense like it currently exists during New Vegas
@HansWurst1569 timelines use markers to indicate when things occur during the flow of events along the timeline. If the end of the timeline is the use of the nuke, then the timeline would not continue on. They could simply have put 2277 Shady Sands falls with no line extending beyond that end point event. But they don't stop there. They continued the line on past the 2277 point to the nuke. Why, if the nuke occurred in 2277? They could have connected the box to the nuke via a separate line or placed the nuke at 2277 with the words inscribed within, above, or below the explosion.
I’m calling it in season 2 The NCR returns more authoritarian and their first cameo is attacking vault 33 (fallout 2 enclave style) as a declaration of war against vault tec also their military is much more advanced and better organized then they were in New Vegas and their new president would have to be someone we know in fnv that is from the ncr faction (personally I would pick Cassandra Moore to be their president) “ Remember Shady Sands “
unlikely, bethesda, you know, the people paying for the show... they like, no they "love" the wasteland. they blew up shady sands because having a functioning civilization does not allow for the lawless old westy wasteland. proof is in their games. fallout 2 civilization was rebuilding. second bethesda took over with 3 it was back to the wasteland, only reason we got any ncr at all was thanks to obsidian (ex-black isle people founded obsidian, same people who made fallout 1 and 2) fallout 4, oh look more wasteland. hmm how do we justify more wasteland? make a prequel and there is 76. they are obsessed with the wasteland. so the ncr had to die.
It might be an error, BUT: “The fall of shady sands” has not yet been defined in the show. It’s likely a separate (but related) event before the explosion. On the board, the blast is clearly shown to happen after ‘the Fall’ - as the arrow continues from the 2077 date to the blast image. It may be days after, or years after. But, if the bomb happened in 2077 then imo they would have put the date in front of that bomb image (since all the other events have the dates in front of them). I agree it’s not helpful to have no date in front of the bomb image - but, perhaps they don’t want to spoil the twist / story so are keeping it vague (TBC!) So, in other words, the “Fall” could have been a separate (but related) precursor event: rebellion, raid, or some other major disruptive event - causing the collapse (“fall”) of normal society at Shady Sands in 2077 (hence the library book stamps stopping then). & This (currently undefined) ‘fall’ could set into motion events that led to a nuke detonation years later. The only potential issue I can see with this is that if there was such a precursor event / rebellion (“fall”) in 2077, it’s odd it’s not referred to in New Vegas. Although, again, it hinges on what the ‘fall’ was & who knows about it.
The problem with the societal fall theory is that it we have to infer that that event is so much more important than the actual city being permanently destroyed. Wouldn't the Capital being destroyed by a nuke be important enough to date too? Can you imagine if we taught that the Japanese Empire fell in 1944 and a couple of nukes happened later or that the Third Reich fell in 1943 and just left out the rest?
@@Turamwdd True, but (if I’m remembering correctly), this history lesson is just from one vault & so it’s possible that vault doesn’t know the exact year the bomb exploded - if they were in their vault for the years around when it happened. For example, they may have been driven underground by “the fall of shady sands” & remained in the safety of their vault until several years after the bomb went off. It will be interesting to see how they explain it next season. A lot hinges on what ‘the fall’ was. Tin foil hat time: It’s also possible that the info on the board was Vault-Tec misinformation / propaganda if it came from an overseer - to control the narrative of what really happened on the surface. 👀 Overall, I still think if the show had intended the chart to mean the bomb exploded in 2077 then they would not have used the word “fall” to describe it - which to me suggests the start of a decline, or a downfall that has happened over time. No-one talks about ‘the fall’ of Hiroshima, or ‘the fall’ of Nagasaki, for example: as those events were instantaneous. But they do talk about ‘the fall of the Roman Empire’ which happened over many years.
We clearly need a scene in S2 where someone walks into the classroom, look at the board and mutters "Wait, that's not right." - erases the date and puts a "correct" one. :D
Given the lack of NCR presence in the region, I'm inclined to think that the First Legion War weakened the local defenses and Shady Sands was sacked by raiders. It wasn't destroyed, but it was devastated. The NCR likely pulled out of the region (akin to Rome pulling out of Britain, perhaps, with plenty of NCR loyalists remaining but official presence being withdrawn) during the following years, which culminated in Hank blowing up the city.
It’s actually an easy fix all they have to say is the downfall started in 2277 and pretty much right after the events of new Vegas shady sands gets nuked.
Betty said she helped her father bury Lucy's mother. So, where is the grave? Do the vaults actually have a grave yard? No, none of them do. All the dead in the vaults are composted. There is another continuity error.
Ultimately, the show can get things wrong just like the games. Both Old World Blues and Dead Money say the bombs were dropped at night, when 3,4, and NV said it was in the morning. Ill take Todd's word over a mistake in the show.
My ONLY explanation for this is that 3 and 4 take place on the East Coast and the bombs drop at like 9 am in the morning, this would be 6 am on the west coast and in October would still be dark at 6 am. The NV issue is they re-used assets from 3 including the clocks, so that's just a massive error with resource use, not necessarily an intentional act.
@@jaysondemers8145Possibly, but I'm more inclined to believe they just made a mistake. I get lore mistakes suck, but I personally don't think this was done maliciously or because they don't care about the lore( Mainly talking about Shady Sands, but DM and OWB too).
They also moved Shady Sand's location slightly. It's supposed to be up in the mountain, where all the water is once nukes destroy all the reservoirs and aqueducts. Wheras here it's seemingly in metro LA.
@@manuelmoralez2257 Is it? From what I recall it's exactly where it was relative to Vault 13 in Fallout 2. Unless there's some other map I'm unaware of.
I still worry that Bethesda holds some resentment towards New Vegas for it being a successful game that was not made by them and I can't help but feel that the destruction of Shady Sands and the weakening of the NCR was done with a little ill will in mind. The again I could be wrong.
Plus, the destruction of New Vegas itself in the end credits also kind of feeds that idea, like, which ending happened then? "Who cares?, it's all gone now anyways"
@@markricheard1870 Clearly he failed at that. He could have pulled those two aside and said " NO, you have any idea the sh*tstorm this will cause for me". ACTIONS speak volumes.
Use logic, time, age of maximus, fall of shady sands means they can't sustain power production, hence why they went to secure the hover dam. Also why was the brotherhood there while it was bombed? Meaning they were loosing the war. Maybe the mojave chapter was not destroyed but actually wiped out the ncr at new vegas.
The TV series is set in 2296, which makes it impossible for Shady Sands to be destroyed by a nuke in 2277. Lucy, while not yet given a canonical age, has been noted in scripts as being in her very early 20s, with the script for "The End" marking her down as 20. For argument's sake, let's put Lucy at 23, making her birth date being in 2273. Considering Lucy was 6 at the time of her residency of Shady Sands, that would not put her there until 2279. However, if she is 20 at the time of the TV show as per the script for "The End", Lucy wouldn't even have been born until 2276, putting Lucy in Shady Sands during 2282. Then how did Lucy remember the plague of 77? She doesn't, Hank and Betty lied to everyone, which we already know. The Vaults dates could be wrong (by design), or there could have been an actual plague in 77, and Hank manipulated everyone around Lucy and Norm into believing that what happened in 82 happened during the plague. While there IS a plot hole right now, it's not Shady Sands being destroyed before the events of New Vegas, it's that Lucy probably thinks it's 2291.
she explicitly states in the very scene referenced in this video that she remembers how thin her dad got.... how the f does she remember that if she was 1. and if it was just a story she was told, who says stuff about "remembering" it would be phrased more like "the history of, or, as i was told" not "i remember" the age thing is a cope, she is older.
I'm annoyed that they invented this whole thing where the NCR (or just Shady Sands) was destroyed by Hank/Vault-Tec, when they already had the option of making Ulysses/The Courier nuking the NCR at the end of Lonesome Road cannon- that solves this new issue that the show has created...
Maybe it's a timeline that turns into a flowchart for digestion purposes. Our history teacher was doing this with historically recent events that hadn't fully settled yet. Frankly, so long as they don't pull the "occasional ding in the old chronometer" line from Codsworth in Fo4, I'd be satisfied.
It’s such a sad state. So many people clearly love the Fallout series yet there’s too many of the wrong people in charge including that little weasel Todd Howard, the sniveling yes man that are ruining this series and all their other IPs so they can squeeze out what they can before tossing them aside! Same as many others in the gaming industry.
Okay after some thought I can make 2077 work with the official timeline. It seems to me the only ones that are traveling from the NCR are you working for the military or government officials. It is possible is that the government is keeping it silent about the destruction of shady sands. Basically the military doesn't know that shady Sands has fallen. Most of the military has been there for decades, and they're already losing ground. The message that shady sans is following would be a Deathstroke to the New Vegas initiative. So no one tells them, and the military in Vegas believed that the NCR still strong. The reason no reinforcements are coming, it's because there's no reinforcements. The soldiers in Vegas maybe the strongest regiment in all of the NCR right now
Two other references also imply 2277 as Shady Sands destruction year:
According to Vault 31's records, Hank transferred from Vault 31 in 2271. Hank transferred to marry Rose and have kids, so likely Lucy was born within a year. Lucy says she thought the sun in the vault was real until she was 6, because she remembered the real sun in Shady Sands. If she were born in 2271, then she stopped believing the sun was real in 2277.
Birdie says she was 11 when Shady Sands was destroyed, which would make her 30 at the time of the show. The actress is 47, but I think she could plausibly pass for being ~30, but not for being 26 or younger to fit a 2281 or later date.
The first thing doesn't disprove much. I don't think anybody is disputing Rose, Lucy, and Norm were in Shady Sands in 2277. The question is whether Hank destroyed it in that same year. As for the second thing, Birdie survived the wasteland with radiation, raider attacks, and not much in the way of skin care. Go look at how people looked at age 26 before modern technology. They looked ooooooold.
There are no ages solidified for the characters of the Fallout show, thus this argument is loosie goosy at best. Okey dokey?
Lucy being born in 2271 also puts her at a year or two younger than Ella Purnell was when the show was filmed in 2022-2023.
@jaysondemers8145 "Go look at how people looked at age 26 before modern technology. They looked ooooooold." that is 100% not true. they looked 26. They have always looked 26.
I have no idea where you got that crazy idea from. Maybe you are one of those confused people who does not understand how averages work and so you think nobody lived to be 90 in the past when they did. just facts like infant mortality, and dying to infections and such brought the AVERAGE down to 40-50.
The human race has not changed for well over 100,000 years. and the vast majority people are not injecting their faces with chemicals to keep themselves young even today.
Honestly, are you confusing mummies with how they looked when they were alive or what? where are you getting this crazy idea from? I've seen the very first pics ever taken and people looked exactly like they do now. are you confusing older styles of clothing with "looking old"?
Non-references with only actors’ real ages as proof. Good grief, the reaching.
The script for the "The End" states Maximus's age as 19 at the start of the show, and 6 when the fridge scene happened. That would mean he was born _IN_ 2277, given the date the show is set in is 2296. This means that Shady was in fact blown up six years after the stated date, specifically in 2283, two years after the events of New Vegas which occurred in 2281.
Sources:
1. The wiki page for Shady Sands, third paragraph, sixth reference attached to the date 2283.
2. The wiki page for "The End" script in the notes section.
3. "The End" script itself, as provided by the wiki on "The End" scripts page.
Todd Howard says it happened "just after" the events of New Vegas, he specifically says they are cutting the timeline close. 2 years doesn't fit that description. Their ages could have been changed late in production as well. It's clear that at one point the intention was for the bomb to have gone off during the correct period of time in relation to the games. However, they clearly eventually decided to change that date. There was clearly a mistake made that has caused some wild convolution of the time. For no reason mind you. If it ends up being some big brained plot move that somehow works, whatever I'd eat my words. Although I'd still have to ask, why? Why is all of this necessary. Why didn't someone go "you know our set design and script kind of give the wrong implication"?
@@quintingigax5912especially early 2283 could reasonably be referred to as just after New Vegas. How long are the events of the game canonically anyway?
@@quintingigax5912 a year and a half would meet that description actually.
It... Just works?
This comment should be pinned . Ox just doesn't want to admit that he is wrong.
I think the obvious answer is that they intended it to be in 2277 to echo the Great War in 2077 with symmetry in the years. But after the show released they realized that that couldn’t happen so they hastily retconned the show.
Yep. Finally an honest summary! 👍
Definitely what happened. They just dont want to admit it was a mistake.
@@sirlloyn9115 classic Bethesda never admit when they’re wrong lol
Yeah even my comment is just a theory but Occom's Razor says, "the simplest solution is usually the correct one." If that's true Bethesda has really let themselves go in terms of narration. Little wonder Fallout London is making them look back.
I always assumed even when first watching the show that It was referencing a different date as the mushroom cloud is at the end of the arrow making me at least think initially that it was after the fall as the fall of a civilization is different from the destruction of a civilization so it probably had issues prior to the nuke going off which would make sense as they were spread pretty thin and had many issue during new Vegas so I wouldn’t put it out of the realm of possibility but yeah the arrow keeps going after the fall so it is likely separate dates or that’s how it was intended but it wasn’t properly conveyed
I still cant belive he got all the way to Vegas on one Fusion core. When i wear a powerarmor in game i have to swap it all the time.
Note how many times Danse has to swap his fusion cores. Oh right never. That's just video game resource management logic for OUR "benefit" as the player.
They intentionally made fusion cores last a ridiculously short amount of time in fallout 4 for "Balance".
Fusion cores are not something that is intended to be continually replaced, let alone often. As evidenced by the fact that you can run an entire prewar facility on a single fusion core for more than 200 years.
@@jaysondemers8145but you can’t compare video game to the show… the show has to be more plot oriented, which is why the show sucked
Hahahaha
Still sad all my loot was stashed in Shady Sands now it gone😢
I see something different in the school locker scene: the book is not checked out in Nov 2276, rather it is due in Nov 2276. This implies that the book was already late in terms of return in 2277. Why wasn't it returned? We don't know. However, unless the bombs dropped in Nov 2276, this remains an unknowable problem. Hence, there is no reason to believe that the book wasn't returned in 2277 because of the bombs; the book was already past its due date in Nov 2276.
Well said
yeah, oxhorn is acting like a shady sands school just lasted all through the nuclear holocaust like a normal school. Making up reasons why it wasn't checked out for decades. More likely society was not stable enough for a school the entire time. so it probably didnt run every year. No kid is going to school when there is a gang of raiders living in it for example. I dont think taking back a school from criminals is gonna be top priority for the NCR if they are fighting just to survive some years.
I just thought... I could see it being a book either Lucy or Norm got in Shady Sands before Hank got them and they never returned the book, it remained there, in the locker, after they left. I mean, nov 2276 is close to 2277, it could still fit what Lucy says about the plague in 2277 in the Vault. I would bet on Norm, because he's not in Lucy's flashbacks of Shady Sands - maybe at that time he was a kid that enjoyed reading. And since we don't which book is, it could be one for kids.
Honestly they should just change the date on the chalkboard with a digital edit to make it say 2283 or 2281, whatever lines up. Easiest fix rather than they way they are handling it.
Yea. except that FNV STARTS IN 2281. so... what, you ok with wiping off the canon regardless?
That would definitely clear everything up, but that would require them to admit that they made a mistake which is something they really don’t want to do.
@@Joshua-dh3uj agreed sadly. I mean game of thrones got rid of the coffee cup and the mandolorian got rid of jeans guy, it's simple and common but ya, not likely.
Why would Lucy's dad feel the need to nuke Shady Sands if it had already "fallen"? I bet they'll tell us that after the Shady Sands in the TV show was destroyed, the NCR just renamed another city to Shady Sands and made THAT the new capital. Continuity preserved.
I subscribe to the idea that it's the result of the couriers choice in lonesome road. You get to choose who to nuke.
That's possible, but wouldn't the creation and naming of a new capital be depicted in that series of historical events that is being taught in that classroom?
@tyler4418 I accept it as a difficult problem either way. It was never meant to be canon, but they decided to make it canon once they got into the project, from my understanding. Probably a small thing that slipped through, but I genuinely agree with you. The BEST solution I can come up with is the fact that in NV, I have an actual option to nuke both Caesar and the NCR, and we don't seem to see either faction around anymore. It loosely, VERY loosely, all works out with mostly only small errors that way.
I hope not, that's such a stupid fix, I'd prefer some over convoluted fix that makes it seem they planned it all along before I'd want that 😭
there also isnt 1 universe. Each video game has choices you can make to alter the universe.
They can say in season 2 that new capital of NCR was renamed to Shady Sands in honor of the destroyed city.
And in New Vegas they were talking about this (new) Shady Sands.
That's ridiculous. Then why they did not show it in the history lesson a.k.a chalkboard drawing? In what year the *new* Shady Sands was found? and don't forget Todd literally said the the nuke was fell AFTER new vegas, then why there's TWO shady sands before the nuke (year 2081)?
@@eegoiiThe people in the vault have been isolated for over a decade at this point if the 2277 date is to be believed. So its reasonable to assume they wouldn't know about the new city.
@@eegoii "...Todd literally said the the nuke was fell AFTER new vegas..." damage control. Because they messed up. They blew it. They goofed.
I agree that it would be ridiculous just like you said, but Todd Howard has already tried to retcon this entire issue to preemptively get ahead of the continuity errors, so I wouldn’t be surprised if something like this would happen again in a similar fashion like the op stated. But then again, we don’t know how much creative control Todd Howard has over the show’s story elements.
I want to ask; why does this lore continuity error even exist? Is it because the show’s writers made a little oopsie? Is it because the show writers didn’t take into account the deep lore of New Vegas because it wasn’t created by Bethesda (yet they are still willing to use assets as seen in the final shot of the show)? Is there a different reason entirely to tell a different storyline? That’s what I would like to ponder.
@@ez-bakeoven6797 What's the point assuming Shady Sands was fall and then WROTE "The Fall of Shady Sands" in 2077? If they knew Sands Sands fell in 2077, how did they not knowing about the new Shady Sands? The show is 15 year after the nuke (if we following the game's lore of the great war). And this is still not answering why there's 2 shady sands in 2081, if what Todd said is the canon.
I think the writers meant it to be 2277 and are now retconning after backlash. Which I am okay with. There is enough wiggle room for them to change their minds yet and correct things.
It should not be EXCUSED AT ALL.
@@MLPDethDealr32 it can and will be. Nothing is sacred in terms of media.
@Oxhorn If Lucy is 20, she was born in 2276. [Norm was going to be the older brother.] Lucy felt the warmth of the sun at 6, so 2282 and she had to be there a while because Lucy has a vivid memory of the warmth and sunlight.
[HOW DID SHE GET SO GOOD AT SHOOTING????? NOTHING IN THE VAULT BUT STATIONARY TARGETS"????' played golf since i was 5~, you get good quick at a young age']
Fall of shady sands in 2277 seems correct. Rose got Lucy and Norm to Shady Sands in 2277. The fall NOT the impact. If Rose took Norm and Lucy at such a young age to not remember. Hank probably gave Rose a ghoul enhancer thing to keep her quiet, because he couldnt kill her. Hank had to find a bomb and find waste landers to help. So give him a year or two, to get everything going. The bomb dropped on Shady Sands around 2282-2283 I wanna look at the dates for vault 31 again to come up with more or how long the plague lasted. ALSO ALSO that timid nerd guy always with Betty is sus.
Hope this comment gets disproven or Oxhorn deletes this video and makes another explaining the time line.
@@McWillis yeah I was thinking about the ages of Lucy and Maximus. How that could connect to the years around Shady Sands. Good catch.
My only problem with this is that Lucy is clearly not a 1 year old baby in 2277. She's shown as a girl approximately 4-8 years old. Otherwise I am in agreement that the search for the children and the destruction by Hank are two separate events spread out by some time because it isn't like Hank had a nuclear weapon just laying around. Use the plague to excuse the search is one thing, but the plague didn't go on for 4 years, so they have to be two different events. The other thing is Lucy's memories as a child are suspect, but if she spends 4 years in Shady Sands from child to young lady her memories would be a lot more vivid and hard to reconcile with vault life. She could not have been in Shady Sands very long.
Where are the ages said?
2277 could also be unrelated to Lucy, Hank and the nuking entirely and be just stating the beginning of the end.
2277 was the date of the First Battle for Hoover Dam.
Todd Howard popping up on the securitron killed me 🤣
Warhammer 40k has taught me to not nit-pick "exact" dating, as even the people writing stuff down are only human and prone to getting numbers wrong. Trying to accurately timeline things like historic England is an absolute riot of missing years, legitimate reboots of the whole thing, missing months, missing decades, all because the Earth doesn't perform an exact 365 day orbit, much less an exact 24 hour rotation, and God help your calculations if you are on a different planet, or stuck on a planet that is also stuck in the warp, where time has no meaning. Back on Earth though, these microscopic errors compound literally on the daily and once you expand stuff by 200+ years it becomes a real problem. With this being said, I don't blame historians for being off as much as 10 years when trying to timestamp stuff with a pip boy that may or may not have been turned off for several years, and you only have to miss a few years of no one counting for it to be 2280+ instead of 2277. And this can be a local problem as well for following the paper-trail, in a world that has precious little paper.
Fallout is not like Warhammer 40k.
@@fullmetalswcc was using it as an example where just adding an extra 0 every here and there can cause massive problems later. One glitchy pip-boy later and some people's 2277 was actually 2279, stuff like that. Most stand alone computers have a wildly differing idea of how to count time, so much so that we "as a planet" choose one of 5 sources to sync up with every now and again, usually several times a day.... For modern GPS to function, this is done hundreds of times a day. 200 years is a particularly annoyingly large gap in such a fragile system of measurement.
@@steelgreyed. The dates in the lore in Fallout are hard dates, and up for misinterpreting.
@@fullmetalswcc A lot did indeed happen in 2277, its not the first time historians have lumped stuff together under one, perhaps their last, ledger. We never sorted this batch out because oh crap incoming! Half of the joy "of" Fallout is trying to piece together a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense into a narrative you can digest.
@@steelgreyed. They are not historians. They are the survivors.
I think the Fall of Shady Sands isn't exactly one event but a combination of many events. You have the battles for hoover dam, corruption in the government, Kimball being elected, the creation of The Divide that severely damaged ncr routes. Since vault 4 had many survivors of shady sands I like to think that a lot of the ncr citizens were leaving the corruption of the city thus making Shady Sands fall
I agree. It says on the chalkboard the fall of Shady Sands in 2277. This could have taken some time, years even. But then there is an arrow pointing to a mushroom cloud. To me this indicates that some time has passed after 2277 when Shady Sands was nuked.
They never should have destroyed the NCR.
I don’t think it is completely
@@Salemchevy Did we even see the same show?
@@inzyniertv9305 because the capital was loss don’t mean the ncr is gone. Weaken is. Remember the hub?
@@Salemchevy Everything seems to be gone even the Boneyard is gone... Theres nothing but a Fallout 4 fucking shanty town and a bunch of raiders... They only destroyed the NCR because people liked it more then Fallout 4s factions
@@inzyniertv9305 my dude not being rude but you do know where the hub is located right? Heck even new Reno is no where near the boneyard. While yes shady sands is gone doesn’t mean the ncr is gone. Could be they left the lower part of California because they lost most of their forces. Heck another example we saw of factions coming back was the enclave. They were basically gone on the west coast until this show. Respectfully
Think of “the fall” like how we talk about Rome. There’s many dates you could call the “fall of Rome” but Rome didn’t cease to exist on that exact date.
But if you said the fall of Rome happened like 50 years before it actually fell, that would be odd. I wouldn't assume you meant "the beginning of the decline of rome" If you said it fell
But if Rome got nuked on an exact date, you would presumably put that date on a chalkboard timeline.
You're just ignoring the whole video
I definitely saw it like this originally. Maybe something massive happened on the dated bit which people called 'the fall' then the final nail in the coffin was the bomb. Someone nonchalantly could have just put the drawing or as a 'well I don't need to explain it any further'
Decline= fall Jesus Christ 🤦♂️@@dillonblair6491
I 100% believe that, when making the show, they intended 2277 to be the year Shady Sands was destroyed. But I also think the writers noticed their mistake shortly after the series started airing, and are now coming up with solutions to fix the lore. Todd has already confirmed that solution won't be decanonizing New Vegas, so I suppose we'll see what they come up with. I think the best explanation so far is the "Fall of Shady Sands" being a more societal fall. The occupation of Vegas taking so much manpower and resources that it started a downward spiral in the core territories. If we add the House ending to New Vegas on top of that, it would explain how a single nuke destroyed the NCR. It wasn't the single cause, more the straw that broke the camel's back. The quarantine excuse still works if Shady Sands is destroyed in 2281, as the Vault staying in lockdown for 4 years is believable enough and would just mean Hank and Betty took a long while to find out where Rose went.
TL;DR This is a lore mistake, but Fallout is no stranger to lore mistakes. It'll get patched up soon enough.
This right here, except I think they didn't even notice until the show released. Seems like they just picked that "reclamation day" would fall 200 years after bomb dropped and went with it. If they had caught the mistake anytime before the show's release, they could have digitally edited the date on the blackboard, and nobody would have been the wiser. The fact that they didn't says to me that they didn't catch it. Coupled with how lackluster (imo) Todd's and the writers' attempts to retcon the show's lore based on this little mistake have been, it paints a picture that they had to scramble to make up for not having noticed this little detail even after having written New Vegas directly into the plot. Like you said, it'll get sorted out, but it won't be pretty from a writing perspective (it'll be hard to disguise the retcon) because they didn't catch it in time.
Nah best solution is it was lying propaganda to protect the kids.
So, why wouldn't the destruction of the actual city be important enough to date? Societal fall - yes; city nuked -no? That sounds even more ludicrous. We say Rome ended in 476 AD; we don't call all the things leading up to it as the year of the "fall of Rome" and ignore 476.
Exactly. They obviously made a mistake in the writing and screwed up the date, then did this whole song-and-dance later to try and cover up their error. That said, I think it's pretty ridiculous to assume that this means they wanted to de-canonize New Vegas because Todd Howard is a big meanie who hates Obsidian and their work. You could certainly argue that it demonstrates a lack of deep familiarity on the part of the show writers with the New Vegas storyline. It's also pretty clear, though, that the whole idea of blowing up Shady Sands to begin with was about "resetting" the timeline back to the classic Fallout setup, i.e. irradiated, bombed-out landscapes and very little in the way of progress or safety in any direction.
They chose to set the show in Los Angeles, probably for the standard reasons many shows are set in California--they're often filmed there, after all, so it's cheaper and easier to just set them there too. And with California being the original setting for Fallout, it makes sense if you want to capture that classic Fallout feel. Nobody--especially new fans who aren't that familiar with the games--wants to see a post-apocalyptic nuclear wasteland story set in a California that is no longer a post-apocalyptic nuclear wasteland. How exactly would that work, and how would you make it feel like Fallout? I'm a big fan of New Vegas, and I was initially confused and disappointed by the state of the NCR in the show. But I get why they did it, and I'm very happy that they're still centering New Vegas for season 2.
Given what they've done so far to tease Robert House as an important character, I'm fairly confident they're just going to canonize the House ending of New Vegas. After all, the House ending is the only one where he would've survived to be encountered by Hank in season 2, and I know they're going to want to portray that moment. I think they intend to use the NCR's loss in the Mojave war as part of the backstory for why the NCR has either ceased to exist or become irrelevant in southern California. The NCR was a lot more than Shady Sands, and even if their capital was destroyed, they should have more of a presence there than they do in the show.
It's unclear if Moldaver's group is really under the direction of the NCR, or if they're just former NCR citizens who have taken up their old banner. The show describes a bunch of refugees from the NCR winding up at Vault 4, and the former NCR people there seem to revere Moldaver specifically as the savior of their lost nation... you'd think they wouldn't do that if the nation still existed somewhere. If the NCR was already weakened by overextension and catastrophic losses in the Mojave, the collapse of their entire project after the loss of Shady Sands starts to make a lot more sense.
I absolutely agree. This feels like so much of a retcon and we actually have strong evidence of their lack of care for canon just in the fact that they place Shady Sands next to the boneyard. We all know that it is actually closer to New Vegas in Nevada. I suspect they are going to rush to fix this by placing a "new" Shady Sands in Nevada. All the GECK's in the world would not stop the nuclear storms coming off the boneyard (as seen in F4 in the commonwealth). We witnessed the nukes hitting LA so we know it was at least as bad as the Commonwealth. The whole point of the real Shady Sands location was the lack of significant radiation due to fallout.
Ox: I like how you give the benefit of the doubt and look at the details rather than just immediately right something off as incompetence. Too many other content creators go straight to toxic negativity to get the subscribers riled up. I appreciate your approach.
My biggest issue with the lore is the date 2277 and Even worst is the setting. The geography is all messed up. Shady sands is about 5 to 10 miles east of Yosemite national park. That’s 419 miles from Santa Monica. Another MAJOR Issue is the Master in 2161! HELLO vault 33, 32, 31 is right there in the L.A boneyard! The master had no problem finding prime Normals stock. The BOS is Poorly written
Yeah I have issues with the locations of 33, 32, and 31, but there were a lot of undiscovered vaults for centuries so... who knows. The BOS is perfectly written, though. I have never had any illusions that the BOS is made up of zealots and jerks with superiority complexes. "Technofetishists" I believe House calls them.
@@jaysondemers8145 as far as I can see, Richard Grey came from a Vault. He knows what a Vault looks like. Not to mention the Massive Vault 33 Doors 🚪 saying “hey right here you horse’s ass come on get me” the BOS tiles are wrong. Squire is a Rank Given to children of the BOS, Maximus Rank should be initiate. Enough time has Passed for him to earn the Rank of Initiate. That’s clearly the Prydwen over the barracks. As far as the characters of main three. They’re written well and I enjoy Maximus as the evil character. This last point I observed this must be a hybrid chapter mixed with the Mojave chapter and Reformed chapter of Maxon
@@r.s_vault8180didn’t the Master send out Super Mutants to find vaults? I feel like they had to stumble across them. They never mention that the Master knew the location of vaults. If the show was bad I wouldn’t like the locations of the vaults in the show either, or that their entrances are on the surface. But, the show was good, so that’s something I can over look. 😂😂
@@eriksand9262 I can’t agree with that, Lore and timelines are very important even so that the show runners makes the show “Canon” to the timeline of the games. The Main Reason the Master wanted to get the Vault Dweller So Bad because he was a Prime Normal. Mind you Necropolis is Bakersfield CA, Cooper Howard brought it up in the Show. Super Mutants are first found in Necropolis, then The Children are at the HUB, The Boneyard, addiytum where the Blades are nested. Wait too long they end up in Junktown and Ultimately Shady Sands. Bet your last bottle cap that they would most definitely Found vault 33,32,31 in they’re own backyard in the Boneyard.
now, ive my own issues with the show, and after i first saw it i had the same issue with how the BOS was portrayed, but i heard something rather simple that explains literally everything, and makes for an interesting set up for later seasons. the names of the BOS members are the give away. every big, old, faction in fallout has distinct naming conventions. BOS are very English, names like roger or owyn... but the chapter we see in the show, all of them have Latin names... Roman names... the elder is named Quintus ffs. only faction named like that is Cesar's Legion. so if, after their defeat Legate Quintus took his troops and signed up with the brotherhood to get access to their tech for the sake of his revival plan.... suddenly everything that chapter does makes way more sense.
so at least that might have a good explanation. ive got nothing for the rest though lol. still riddled with bugs in typical bethesda fashion, show or not lol.
Im gonna read it as there was some kind of back and forth in 2077
hence the weight lost (cos hank wasn't used to the outside world), and book not being borrowed.
he got lucy and her brother back to the vault and made a quarantine excuse to stop lucy seeing her mom
then lied to her about mom dying.
maybe mom stayed in shady sands
but after a few years of back and forth, hank bombed shady sands due to rising tensions between the places such as more and more people being made away of the vault's location.
I wonder if there is a story link to the Lonesome Road DLC from FONV. You can nuke the NCR in LR DLC. Thus, you must use the year 2277.
Perhaps they're canonizing only that ending.
Okay, except LR takes place on or after 2281.
Ulysses is such an insufferable, unlikeable character with no redeeming qualities, I doubt they would even do that
I had thought something similar, then they went the 'Daddy Did It' route....
Ox's passion on this lore issue is the way I feel when I see people say Solas was a bad guy in Dragon Age.
He was only dubbed the Trickster God by the other mage elves because he acted like he was one of them, but was secretly/not secretly stealing their slaves and setting them free. That's like saying Harriet Tubman is a bad person. Also, he sealed away his people cuz the power was going to their heads, but now regrets it because elves are still treated as 2nd class citizens. He just wants elves to be treated well, both by the powerful of his kind, and by other species.
Love you Oxhorn, but 9:35 Lucy only says "people starved, my mother included...", she doesn't say her mom died of starvation in 2277. Your logic makes a lot of sense, but her mom could've survived the 2277 great plague, and maybe after that she found evidence of Hank's involvement in the Vault-Tec conspiracy, therefore she left the vault with her kids and found Shady Sands.
He literally covers that she didnt die of Starvation if you watched the vid further.
I agree with the others who say that a second location was renamed to Shady Sands after the original was nuked. That was my head cannon the entire time.
Unfortunately the date in the library book is in no way conclusive proof that Shady Sands was destroyed in 2277, it may be a case that the book was taken home after being checked out in 2276, left at home and forgotten about then found by a sibling of the person that checked it out in 2281, and returned to the school and placed in the locker with the intention of returning it to the library at the first opportunity, personally I do think the 2277 date was chosen because the producers 'forgot' about Fallout New Vegas because it wasn't a Bethesda game.
They shouldn’t have “forgot” about the most popular game in their franchise set in the exact same area of the country
I'm more in line with thinking that 2277's "Fall" has a LOT more to do with Muldaver's quest for Cold Fusion than it does Hank's revenge. Muldaver is clearly in Shady Sands in 2277 but is not any kind of leader there that we understand. However, the survivors in Vault 4 worship her like some kind of prophet or goddess. What the hell was Muldaver actually doing in Shady Sands? What could she possibly have done to draw such a cult like status? What connection did she have already to Rose and / or Vault 33? If, as Oxhorn points out, Rose and Muldaver have a relationship, how the heck did that start when Rose was in Vault 33 for most of her life and Muldaver was in Shady Sands? There is a LOT more to the story of Muldaver than we've been told and based on the terrible things she did in order to get Cold Fusion to work (not even to GET REVENGE ON HANK! She just wanted her lifelong dream to be fulfilled!) leads me to believe she is not a good person by any stretch of the imagination.
@@americanaccolon1319 I've got to agree that it was probably the most popular game in the franchise , and it wasn't done by Bethesda, lol.
@@americanaccolon1319more like most soy videogame in the franchise lol
@@mrjocktFNV fans have done more than Bethesda ever did to convince me to never play that game lol
I feel like the bigger continuity error for me is the fact that the great war apparently happened in the late morning/early afternoon in CA despite the fact it should have been at 6 something in the morning
I don't recall that they speak the date out loud so they should just edit the scene and change the date. That kind of stuff has already been done in other shows
Did you watch the video? The entire video is about how this was specifically mentioned and corroborated by multiple different parties within the show and it's directly relevant to the core plot of the show.b
Yes, I've seen the video. Check the comment from @LegitTapeSplicer. They can edit the show to fix this, just like the games -- at least for the people that haven't bought it physically
@@afunnymouth6449 Yes but at no point does anybody ever state in the show, not even on the chalkboard, that Shady Sands was for sure nuked in 2277. The Plague story is real but does not directly mention anything about nuclear destruction of Shady Sands and the book is a nothingburger considering how often that thing has been checked out and not returned for YEARS. The chalkboard is the only thing people can point at as a possible date for the nuking of Shady Sands but even that gives enough wiggle room to explain away.
Exactly
@@jaysondemers8145don’t be disingenuous they want us to extrapolate that it was destroyed (or at least abandoned) in 2277.
Very convincing. I think at this point the only thing that could explain all this away is if there were some alternate calendars that existed between NCR west and New Vegas. It seems like an error on the producers part but it is still hard to believe its not intentional in some way
There is misinformation, disinformation and stuff that is outright wrong in both our timeline and theirs. I feel like there is being too much made of this and if everything is too perfect it’s unrealistic. I may be the only fallout fan that couldn’t care less about this date.
Todd doing the Ryan George voice: “Heyshutup”
Forget Shady Sands, The hole faction just doesn't exist in the region.
18:44 You are right. Thet cant be 2 dates for same event. 81 is the Canonical date. 1- show will reveal some info nuclear explosion only hapened after 77 or 2-show 77 is wrong and they will not fix it.
Wining Karma as last cene was EPIC.
Going by your video, I think the dates in the show are just mistakes and they had to immediately correct it. Also they’re probably rewriting some dates for Season 2 after the online discussions about the timeline. I wish they got it right the first time but still at least they’re trying to fix it. I’ll wait for season 2 to explain more. Plus I’m glad they didn’t pull a Star Wars Acolyte. Those people just stuck with massive lore/timeline errors and insult the fanbase for pointing it out.
but in the video he's clearly stating it's not a mistake, it was purposeful
gave three examples to prove it too
@@nickwash3r3 “Mistake” as in they made a wrong decision with the dates during development. That’s my point. Probably didn’t double check the lore for some details, they released the show with some date mistakes, and then only double checked the timeline after the fans talk about NV & Shady Sands . Plus If they really wanted to “remove the NV cannon” then they would have stuck with it but thankfully they didn’t. They immediately confirmed that the explosion happened after NV. That’s why Todds interview about the show struck me as a “whoops but we corrected it” moment. Kind of like how Sam Witwer mentioned that Dave Filoni forgot that Padme met Anakins mother in Ep1. It feels similar to that. But again, I’m just glad that they at least try to fix it and not throw political stuff at the fans.
@@Steel-101 yeah, thats my guess too. some poor intern probably got fired for this lol.
@@Steel-101
There was some pretty step backlash over just a Date.
They back-peddled due to pressure... which I will concur is nice.
Only reason I have to hope we see a Mr. House controlled Vegas.
I think this is just one of those mistakes that happens with all adaptations of books or games to shows and movies is some things are overlooked to make more impactful scenes or deeper visuals for the viewer.
Don't get me wrong there is definitely something wrong with the date change and it should definitely be addressed at a higher level than it is, but you need to defend your disbelief just a little bit nothing's going to be completely perfect.
I am still sad to hear something more impactful in this universe was overlooked but at least it wasn't as bad as like I don't know saying the NCR never existed or the brotherhood of steel are communist.
Im thinking that some poor overworked prop master wrote the wrong number down mistakenly.
Hey ya never know
I'm glad you're still talking about this - not that it's the most important thing in the world but it bugs me, too, especially considering anytime this issue is brought up, you have a lot of apologists and myopic folks (or folks who simply do not care) attempt to bury it with scorn or mockery. Like, why can't we discuss how this is an issue? I love the show, too! We all do! We just want the lore to make sense and to be consistent; I understand that sticking to lore can be limiting creatively, as that is one extreme, as is the other where lore is completely ignored or ridiculed by showrunners and writers who hate the source material, but Fallout (the show) managed to find a really great balance somewhere in the middle. Why, then, did this slip? And more importantly, is there a way to fix it without muddying things further?
Tldr:
Todd was seething that new Vegas is so loved and wanted to make it no longer cannon
Source:
Trust me bro
This wackjob conspiracy that Todd hates new vegas is so dumb
@@DrMonkey1224 Fallout fans gotta find something to get mad over and blame Todd for it
@@stardust9164Todd Howard is a liar though. Stop defending him. He’s not even the creator of fallout.
@@DrMonkey1224how do you know that he doesn’t ha te new Vegas? You know his thoughts? 😂 why is the show disgracing new Vegas lore then?
The simple answer is they didn't care not even remotely.
I still think fall of shady sands means decline.
2277 is when the first war with the legion happens. This war could have rocked the city. I imagine political infighting, riots as loved ones were drafted and died fighting Caesar.
The book could have been left there because the student is leaving with their family to move to the Mojave as an emergency draft.
The plague of 2277 could have been the excuse Lucy's mom used to leave the vault initially. 2277 Lucy lives in shady sands. 2281 or 2282 hank finds her and nukes shady sands when her mom doesn't leave.
Iirc the show takes place in 2296 this means if she was born in 2277 in the city she is 19 during the show. If she was born in the vault still she could be older.
exactly, the fall of the Roman Empire is not just one year but over time.
This makes sense to me. Maybe this is what they'll go with. I just hope they didn't decide to also collapse New Vegas as a city before we see it in the show.
No, because Lucy and Norm left the vault with Rose. Norm is younger.
This is a stretch and you have to do a lot of inferring and guesswork as opposed to what is obviously being implied
I'd assume that other members of vault 33 who originally came from vault 31 probably covered for Hank during his quest to return with his family. It could have taken awhile to find shady sands then recon the town and find his family then either sabotage the nuclear reactor powering the town or find a nuke transport it to the town to blow it up after his failed attempt to convince Rose to return so he grabbed Lucy and Norm (being kids they'd go with him without many issues) and ran back to the vault
12:39 Moldaver say's Hank "burned that city to the ground" . this is just a theory. so what if he set a fire to distract people so he could grap Lucy and Norm but the fire got out of control and the NCR wanting to save face and not broadcast there embarrassment that there capital city was gone so easily that it was quietly transferred the capital somewhere else and chose not to tell those on the frontlines whom were already demoralised. And the nuke was someone else entirely
11:00 She didn’t talk about her mother’s death but about having to quarantine with others regarding that book in the locker. The student could have left it in the locker to rot out of laziness, or they might have been killed before the bombs fell. In Shady Sands, as we know from F2, weapons were prohibited; they could only be drawn and had to be in a holster, so murders were still relatively common, I assume. It would help a lot if the ages of the characters were mentioned; I’ve seen the series three times and I still don’t know exactly how old they are.
14:10 Vault had more exits since Lee Moldaver entered through Vault 32, and we know there are more entrances; presumably, Vault 31 also has its own entrance. I could explain these things further, but the board from Vault 4 is really a problem to explain. Maybe Todd could clarify that the fall of Shady Sands on the board in 2277 was actually a political or economic collapse caused by the war in the Mojave Desert near New Vegas, where they defeated Caesar’s Legion in the first war and also defeated the Brotherhood of Steel, which lost a huge army. I know the Brotherhood was defeated with massive casualties, which could have caused immense chaos in the economy. At least that’s how I would interpret it, because there’s an arrow shown pointing right toward the atomic mushroom since 2277, but the board is still a problem. They should release a revised version of the part where instead of "The Fall of Shady Sands," it says something like "Economic Crisis" or something similar. So my summary could be that in 2277 there might have been an economic crisis caused by the war against the Legion and the Brotherhood in the Mojave Desert, and the exact date of the bomb's fall is something the survivors don’t really remember.
I Love Oxhorn but he feels like he's adding his own facts, making random assumptions, and putting words in people's mouth in this.
I think the problem is he keeps reading it as 2277 is WHEN it was bombed, but thats NOT what it says, it say SS FELL then, not that it was BOMBED then. Those are two different events. They specifically do NOT state a date for the bombing. That is how even timelines work. He's making up his own logic. SS Fell in 2277, thats why the book wasnt returned, the Vault issue could have been when Hank and others went to FIND the nukes. it doesnt mean they were also used at that time.
It's a post war Library, there are many reasons a kid may not have returned a book. And the other dates do not even have a 4th number. So, it could have been normal for that book to be out 4-5 years post war. IE, a kid taking it out in 5th grade and not returning it till 10th or 12th
Lucy says her mother "starved" not "Starved to death". That could have been when her mother took Lucy from the vault to get food from the surface.
No the event on the chalkboard points directly to the bomb. They would put the date the bomb exploded.
@@fullmetalswcc that’s not how a time line works
@@manuelmoralez2257. Yes, it is when you want to point to an important event, and use a drawing.
@@fullmetalswcc that’s not how a time line works or the fall of shady sands would’ve been above the nuke it’s not it has a passage of time arrow to the nuke meaning it happened at a later date
@@manuelmoralez2257. There was not enough room above the date. Just because you want to interject what you believe into it. Does not make it true.
The nuclear cloud in the chalkboard is set aside for dromatic effect.
Pay attention to the line and arrow that continues on to the explosion symbol, for crying out loud Oxhorn! You are supposed to smarter than this!
As far as what the series shows, there are boxes on the chalkboard with dates connected by lines.
Dates of significance leading to a final box labeled “2277 The fall of shady sands” with a line FROM that box leading to a mushroom cloud. Even the diagram shows that the nuclear explosion happened AFTER 2277.
The way yall RACE to tear down this show
The first time I saw the show I always assumed the fall was just referring to a decline and the nuking was later as the arrow is pointing onward like it was at a later point it wasn’t like the mushroom cloud was directly over the fall of shady sands is was pointing to a later date
There’s a year listed as the fall of shady sands, and pinning the idea that it’s not possible based on new Vegas?? Vegas is in Nevada and Shady Sands is in California, so why is it so hard to take in new information that the place we didn’t experience during the game has its own issues.
And the problem you and a lot of people are having is you can’t read correct? The year listed is not beneath the nuke it’s beneath the fall.
After the fall they were nuked, the date you’re upset with doesn’t retcon anything!
How is it possible? The NCR is a faction capable of moving around and without the courier’s help they kinda suck. And also again when the game takes place it’s not destroyed it’s falling apart piece by piece probably because of the NCR’s terrible terrible government and politics.
The more important date would when the bomb exploded, and not when the city collapsed. Why would the NCR let their capital fall?
@@fullmetalswcc we know that Shady Sands “used” to be the capital.
Not because it was nuked, but when the city fell it was no longer the capital of the NCR, it’s listed on the sign as the “First” capital not the current one, and why would they quote on quote let it fall they didn’t. The fall happened due to a political power that is seriously selfish and corrupt at times. Without the Courier’s support they are kinda dicks, and that’s not just counting the legion issue, they have a lot of problems with their leaders too.
We know in the show the NCR has fallen, due to stronger factions like the Brotherhood, and the locals don’t seem to care much for the NCR, even locals in new Vegas didn’t care for them!
They are not the glorified saviors fallout fans make them out to be, they are just another fallen empire in the wasteland.
Lastly, these are all events taking place in singular states, these factions are big and spread out it’s not like these are the only events taking place, there’s more to the story!
@@thenamesej9674. All of what you just said make sense if you ignore all of Fallout: New Vegas. Because, if it true that in 2277 Shady Sands began to fall. The legion would have took the Hover Damn.
@@fullmetalswcc the issue is the date, but the date is listed as the fall.
New Vegas can happen while the former capital begins to fall apart.
Residents of New Vegas wouldn’t know because of the lack of communication, the legion fight, and the big final takeover for Hoover.
The canon ending is looking like house wins, we know the legion won’t survive long, we know the brotherhood ends up growing to be in theory the strongest faction.
Why is it so hard to accept that after New Vegas Vault tech nuked Shady sands and during New Vegas the city began falling apart.
The idea that the NCR falls apart is pretty clear all throughout Vegas like I said even the people of the strip and freeside are iffy and or want nothing to do with the NCR.
Like I’m a fan of the faction but it’s illogical to say it breaks canon especially when there are multiple endings.
It’s even a possiblity that season 2 starts and fucking Yes Man is in charge of the Vegas strip.
The NCR has fallen in California and are rooted elsewhere.
@@thenamesej9674. No, the Legion was ruthless, and the only reason why they stopped at Vegas was the NCR. If the Capital was failing the NCR could not deal with the Legion.
So the video game guy and the TV show folks don't follow their own canon? I don't know how you can be suprised....they don't follow their own canon when it gets in the way.
What i don't get is why they couldn't have just set the show 5 years later? That makes me think its either a mistake they made twice and refuse to go back on or that they for some reason wanted to intentionally fuck up the new vegas lore. I doubt they would do that even if people at bethesda dislike new vegas.
Let's be honest here if they do screw up the timeline and wipe out Fallout New Vegas a large chunk of the people won't watch the season 2😂 remember this is the error where companies are spending 200 million and losing because of creative Integrity AKA The Joker two😂
the SHOW is set in 2296, after the events of every game so far.
@@jaysondemers8145 hope you're right but I honestly think the writer team didn't even try playing the games I actually found out some unique dialogue where you can confront the master and he can communicate with the lieutenant via telepathy now I think there's no possible chance that the master would not have found these three vaults
I still think the biggest problem the show creates is location, how is shady sands now located in the LA boneyard this completely changes canon as now vault 13 is no where near shady sands neither are groups like the great khans, how are they going to explain the location change and why didn’t they just use a settlement like Additum or any other settlement already in LA
I think fans put more thought into lore continuity than the makers of these shows ever do.
Dá sa to ešte zachrániť v roku 2277 mohla byť ekonomická kríza spôsobená vojnov proti légií a Bratstvu v Mohavskej púšti. Viem, že Bratstvo bolo porazené s masívnymi stratami, NCR sa to podarilo iba vďaka masívnej presile a vojakov používali ako potravu pre dela nebrali ohľad na straty čo mohlo spôsobiť obrovský chaos v ekonomike. A presný dátum pádu bomby si pozostalí moc nepamätajú a ekonomicka kríza bola akurát nesprávne označená ako pád Shady Sands od tade ide šipka vpravo na atómový hríb pretože si pozostalý nepamätajú presný dátum tej katastrofy. Vojenské konflikty, akými boli tie medzi NCR a Cezarovou Legiou, určite mohli mať dramatický dopad na ekonomiku a politickú stabilitu regiónu. To že si pozostalí nemuseli presne pamätať na dátum pádu bomby, môže byť tiež zaujímavé. V chaotických podmienkach po vojne by si mnoho ľudí mohlo zamieňať udalosti a stratiť prehľad o čase. A ako sme si všimli pozostalý obyvatelia Shady Sands aj stratili určitú intelektuálnu úroven keďže si vytvorili sektu začali robiť rituáli a považovali Lee Moldaver za boha naznačuje psychologický úpadok obyvateľstva čo by bolo tiež logické pretože väčšina obyvateľov mohli byť v dobe katastrofy deti či teenageri
@@MBurglandThe writers of the show have obviously never played the first two games. And no, I'm not talking about Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas.
Bethesda has always hated that New Vegas did so good and has been trying to get rid of it ever since.
The problem is when showrunners don't know the cannon of a series. Just am hoping season 2 isn't a bad wash like we have seen with Rings of power
lol, its kinda funny (and impressive) how ox is saying "they made a mistake and todd was lying in his statement to save face without admitting fault" without actually saying it
Hey Ox ….. the writers of this show do not care about cannon…. If you realize this you understand why none of the story makes sense
BuT oXhOrN sAiD tHe ShOw Is ReSpEcTfUl To ThE sOuRcE mAtErIaL
Shady Sands was the “First Capital of NCR” hence the fall of the first capital began in 2277 (maybe due to the politics of taking in vault dwellers) and a new, not named capital risened after. The nuclear destruction happened four years later in a broken capital city that probably had uprisings due to those politics. Muldiver prominence arose during that time as before that she was just working on her new relationship with Rose.
House provided the nuke to destroy Shady Sands and that is why Hank knows the way and visits New Vegas at the last episode. He lost weight on his travels to Robert house, maybe he ran into Caesars Legion and was imprisoned???
@@shawnlee3756 Why would House destroy the NCR he literally said : "the NCR are my best client"
He want the NCR as an economic partner, the NCR pay for water and electricity and their citizens get to enjoy the Strip.
And why would Caesar Legion be between the NCR and Vegas they couldn't go far past the Colorado River unless it's a small raiding group.
The showrunner just wanted to nuke the NCR to get a lawless/far-west ambiance for the show which is a shitty way to do it.
@@TheNesstis showrunner? i think you mean you mean bethesda and their wasteland obsession. fallout 2 had them rebuilding, but the second betheda took the reigns in 3 it was back to desolate wastelands. thats just how they like it.
As far as the timeline goes, I have always said exactly what you said at 16:55.
Long story short, the board started off as a timeline, but when the person came to the explosion, they pointed to it after the date because they don't know the date of the explosion. The other two points you raised are interesting.
The library book could have been left in the locker for that period of time because the person who checked it out forgot about it, unlike the people who checked it out before them who returned it responsibly.
The point about the canibilism scene is really interesting and a strong theory that I haven't heard before. At the same time, all of that could have happened after 2277. Also lucy could have had that memory as an older girl as you mentioned. I expect a flashback to this event will turn up in season 2 and I'm looking forward to it.
I really think they are going to explain it later in the show. I hope so
The wording on the blackboard is "the fall of shady sands" which then has an arrow pointing toward the nuclear detonation, which would indicate to me that shady sands "fell" in 2277 but was actually destroyed later. Otherwise there wouldn't need to be that second arrow. That could signify an end of Shady Sand's importance within the NCR. It could also be the survivor's own view of how things were within the city, for example if they felt disillusioned in some way with the government. We don't know much about the survivors of Shady Sands, their history, or why so many survived at all beyond the magic of the magical refrigerator saving Maximus.
That still doesn't make sense. They dated eveything else why not date the bomb?
And the NPCs in fallout New Vegas still speak of shady sands as safe. The NCRs politicians and "top brass" only send recruits into the Mojave. They do this because the Brahman Barons want the veterans soldiers to stay in ncr territory to keep the roads safe.
NPC's like Jess the cook outside of querry junction left NCR controlled space because she was bored of all the rules and laws
We're told nothing of shady sands falling in fallout new vegas which takes place 4 years after the supposed fall
Cope with bad lore
No. When we're talking about the fall of Constantinople, we're referring to a very specific event that took place in 1453. What we in the show is a timeline, not a flow chart.
Being that the games have multiple endings,i believe our canon is different from the shows canon and think about it that way.
Way overthinking it. It was a huge, careless blunder, and they're better off not making this show canon now.
I’m in total agreement
A writer wanted to use 2277 because it's an important year in fallout.
Nobody caught the error until after the show came out, so Todd retconned it.
Overthinking this to the point Ox is isn't gonna result in anything.
Maybe some unexplained tension between them and the Brotherhood started another war in 2277 and some damage caused the NCR to move the seat of government marking the “fall”. Moldaver remains in charge of the city and keeps it running as good as she can and then some time in 2280-81 Rose runs off with the kids and causes Hank and Betty to pursue them and in the process a deal is struck with the Enclave (shown to still exist in Ep 1) to make the Shady Sands nuclear event possible. And while the NCR may not be shown at their full might they’re still shown to exist so obviously they packed and moved to preserve continuity of government.
Probably a stretch. Todd just doesn’t want to admit that he and the show producers had no rapport whatsoever.
Except there is nothing in the lore that says that, and the brotherhood didn't start any war in 2277 as that was the battle of helios one, causing massive casualties to the BoS and forcing them underground. And we would have seen lore evedence of the move of the capital in FNV
It’s just one little error or so. Why is this such a big deal. Can’t get everything perfect. We are just humans
Oxhorn is a fallout purist. He wanted this show to be perfect with everything fallout lore wise.
i’m withholding judgement until i see proof that it’s not an intentional lie
Lets be real, the writers used the word fall who all educated ppl understand that if used to describe a city or nation, it means that it is in the proces of decline not that it has been destroyed. Thats why Todd had to clear it up since it was missunderstood by the video games educated population who think the fall of rome or greece or spain or germany or any of those was inmediate.
Its perfectly reasonable to assume the fall meant the nuclear detonation in 2277 for the simple fact that there is no date for the bomb. Hell, it still dosent explain why Shady sands is in LA in the first place
Just my personal headcanon, the way I explained this problem was the nuclear explosion happened in 2077, but because of the cold fusion and power being restored to shady sands that shady sands remained the capital of the NCR. Also, maybe the plague of 2077, Lucy was already back in the vault and the destruction of Shady Sands was because Lucy's mother was trying to retrieve her children from Hank. As a last resort from having the Vault's plan ruined, Hank and Betty destroyed Shady Sands. This could make Lucy older than being a child. My only problem with this I think is I'm actually not quite certain the current date within the show. Maybe I've just overlooked it. But if the show takes place before the events of New Vegas then the power being restored to shady sands would mean the seat of government is still in shady sands. Maybe it's too simplistic of an explanation but that's my personal headcanon. Someone please correct me if I'm way off.
This is why I watch you. Every time I say something about the date or the LA boneyard everybody thinks I’m being negative and not just settling for new content. Fallout NV needed a sequel not a show that messed up the lore
I believe that NV is the weakest in the series(not counting 76) mostly gameplay wise but I agree. A sequel with a new engine and the same if not better writing could have been the closest to a perfect fallout experience.
NV is awesome but it doesn’t need a sequel(NV2). Let’s go to a different state. Let’s take a break from the East Coast and the West. Let’s do Texas or Louisiana.
@@Steel-101 I’d support this 1000% Louisiana would be awesome
@@andrewshrader6454 I’m in the Texas group. I’m a Texan(born in San Antonio & raised in Alvin/Galveston). Plus NV does mention some NCR forces in Texas. Still it would be cool to have some Apocalypse Gumbo in New Orleans lol 😂
@@andrewshrader6454Like New Orleans?
Unless due to the nature and lies from vault tec the chalk board is deliberately misleading, hank and family came from one of the other adjoining vaults, one other thing i was wondering is what happened to all that power from Helios one ?
being as the ncr beat the brotherhood and took over the plant, but does that mean the ncr still could not figure out how to use it ?
Yeah, sorry.
Oxhorn, I like you, but you're way too stuffed up with your own importance in how you see your intepretation of the date as "right" and the showrunner's as 'an error".
There's simply not enough information available to support your postulation that this is a "mistake" and the showrunners screwed up. It's based on certain assumptions that were promoted by fans, but never actually confirmed or supported by the *actual evidence* in the show or games.
I think perhaps a little bit of humility regarding your position might be more appropriate.
Yeah, sorry. Logic supports Oxhorn. There are too many things that have to be re-interpreted to make the date on the chalkboard make sense including assuming that the people in the vault are stupid and don't know how calendars work.
@@Turamwdd I'll turn that on its head by saying the assumption that Vault Dwellers don't know how flowcharts work is likewise just as stupid.
What, Todd Howard would never ever ever ever lie to us. He has 16 times the trustworthiness of any game developer, and his lore just works.
Maybe its just lines on a chalkboard. And like everything else in a Vault...its just a misdirect .
Spoilers. Lucy's father is a defector of Enclave or B.O.S
@@Yea_I_Got_Nothing where does it say that?
No matter which way you look at it occam's razor gives you a big hint.
Ssssshhhhh... it just works!
You dont think school could have been cancled in 76? You cant imagine any reason why school would be canceled a year before the documented 'fall of shady sands'?
My opinion on the matter is quite simple.
Todd the Toad, with his over-inflated ego, could never stand the fact that someone else made a better Fallout game than he did and now he's finally got the chance to remove his hated Fallout New Vegas from the canon and tell his own version.
I also fully expect that the second season of Fallout will further ensure that New Vegas is removed from the canon. After that, they can just stand there and say that the game is already so old and no longer fits into the current timeline. That's it.
The man is a notorious liar and we saw that again in this interview.
It's this 100 percent, no other reason, BGS have never liked New Vegas, Fallout 4 next gen still has not been fixed on PC either, it's deliberate.
Better explanation: No one caught the continuity error until it was too late and fans started freaking out. Todd did some hasty damage control and tried to retcon things, instead of just admitting they messed up the date.
Makes for some interesting theory content, though.
The way I interpreted it is... the year on the chalkboard does not represent... the destruction (bombing) of Shady Sands.
Personally, I am in the camp that is saying... the fall of Shady Sands began in the year of 2277. Sometime after that, is when it was destroyed.
Again, that is my interpretation, and I am sticking to it. That is, until the powers that be behind the show, say otherwise.
That would be like Nazi Germany not falling to the Russians in 1945.. Oh wait< IT DID.
@MLPDethDealr32 ... so, Germany, abruptly, fell in 1945. Nothing happened before that year, that led to that. Ok...
We take in the information we are given in a show as part of the show itself. Its not hard to imagine that they kept track of time since it was created in 2186. So, yeah they did keep track of the years, it would be nonsensible for former shady sands residents to not know when it fell, but 4 years shy of the date would imply some discrepancy, given that real survivors were alive after the fall of shady sands. So, we are stuck with a divergent time-line at best. At worst, they stopped keeping track of time, which would put a whole different impact on the lore. Since it is both based on the game and written as an extension of the games, I find it very difficult to think people did not know before the fall that the year was wrong, considering the scope the NCR had.
So, you believe that Hank was able to walk to Shady Sands, get his children, walk back to the Vault to secure his kids, plan, and then destroy a city in less than a year? Also, food for thought, Hank and Betty could easily leave the vault without the vault residents knowing by lying and saying there was an Overseer's meeting in vault 31, then exited from there.
@@jvazacas Hank left during the time period everyone was locked in their rooms due to someone "sick mess" oxygen just doesn't pay attention
@SuperCasperman quarantine would have been after he got his kids back to the vault. Lucy clearly remembers the quarantine, suggesting it happened after they returned, not before.
@@jvazacas Lucy was a child and her memories are unreliable.
@jaysondemers8145 and yet, I have memories from a super young age, 2 in fact, and my father looked at me and said, you remember that? I'm in my 40s btw. So no, not unreliable at all.
@@jvazacas your dad could have said it wasn't true and talked about something else to cover what really happened, this is what happened with Lucy which makes her memories unreliable when talking about what she remembers from her childhood
I think the show runner really liked the date 2277 for the fall of shady sands built everything around it but neglected to check if that would cause any problems in the time line.
unfortunately even most people who really liked fallout don’t know the lore down to the dates. the only commonly mentioned date in FNV is 2277 unless you obviously look at your pip-boy. So they may have mistaken the date for the first battle of hover dam for the second. Hence the building so much around it.
I read the timeline as saying Shady Sands falls in 2277, but the timeline continues on for a short stretch before the Nuke drops.
But why wouldn't that have a date?
@@jonyoung4793 if shady sands fell in 2277 it would have 100% been mentioned in New Vegas
Several characters talk about Shady Sands in the present tense like it currently exists during New Vegas
this point makes no sense, simply too weird to have that be the case. that would be fallout 4 quality writing hahaha
@@Weasel6they came out and said directly after fallout NV it fell which makes sense from the fact the NCR was already stretched thin
@HansWurst1569 timelines use markers to indicate when things occur during the flow of events along the timeline. If the end of the timeline is the use of the nuke, then the timeline would not continue on. They could simply have put 2277 Shady Sands falls with no line extending beyond that end point event. But they don't stop there. They continued the line on past the 2277 point to the nuke. Why, if the nuke occurred in 2277? They could have connected the box to the nuke via a separate line or placed the nuke at 2277 with the words inscribed within, above, or below the explosion.
I’m calling it in season 2 The NCR returns more authoritarian and their first cameo is attacking vault 33 (fallout 2 enclave style) as a declaration of war against vault tec also their military is much more advanced and better organized then they were in New Vegas and their new president would have to be someone we know in fnv that is from the ncr faction (personally I would pick Cassandra Moore to be their president)
“ Remember Shady Sands “
unlikely, bethesda, you know, the people paying for the show... they like, no they "love" the wasteland. they blew up shady sands because having a functioning civilization does not allow for the lawless old westy wasteland. proof is in their games. fallout 2 civilization was rebuilding. second bethesda took over with 3 it was back to the wasteland, only reason we got any ncr at all was thanks to obsidian (ex-black isle people founded obsidian, same people who made fallout 1 and 2) fallout 4, oh look more wasteland. hmm how do we justify more wasteland? make a prequel and there is 76. they are obsessed with the wasteland. so the ncr had to die.
It might be an error, BUT: “The fall of shady sands” has not yet been defined in the show. It’s likely a separate (but related) event before the explosion. On the board, the blast is clearly shown to happen after ‘the Fall’ - as the arrow continues from the 2077 date to the blast image. It may be days after, or years after. But, if the bomb happened in 2077 then imo they would have put the date in front of that bomb image (since all the other events have the dates in front of them).
I agree it’s not helpful to have no date in front of the bomb image - but, perhaps they don’t want to spoil the twist / story so are keeping it vague (TBC!)
So, in other words, the “Fall” could have been a separate (but related) precursor event: rebellion, raid, or some other major disruptive event - causing the collapse (“fall”) of normal society at Shady Sands in 2077 (hence the library book stamps stopping then). & This (currently undefined) ‘fall’ could set into motion events that led to a nuke detonation years later.
The only potential issue I can see with this is that if there was such a precursor event / rebellion (“fall”) in 2077, it’s odd it’s not referred to in New Vegas. Although, again, it hinges on what the ‘fall’ was & who knows about it.
The problem with the societal fall theory is that it we have to infer that that event is so much more important than the actual city being permanently destroyed. Wouldn't the Capital being destroyed by a nuke be important enough to date too? Can you imagine if we taught that the Japanese Empire fell in 1944 and a couple of nukes happened later or that the Third Reich fell in 1943 and just left out the rest?
@@Turamwdd True, but (if I’m remembering correctly), this history lesson is just from one vault & so it’s possible that vault doesn’t know the exact year the bomb exploded - if they were in their vault for the years around when it happened. For example, they may have been driven underground by “the fall of shady sands” & remained in the safety of their vault until several years after the bomb went off. It will be interesting to see how they explain it next season. A lot hinges on what ‘the fall’ was.
Tin foil hat time: It’s also possible that the info on the board was Vault-Tec misinformation / propaganda if it came from an overseer - to control the narrative of what really happened on the surface. 👀
Overall, I still think if the show had intended the chart to mean the bomb exploded in 2077 then they would not have used the word “fall” to describe it - which to me suggests the start of a decline, or a downfall that has happened over time. No-one talks about ‘the fall’ of Hiroshima, or ‘the fall’ of Nagasaki, for example: as those events were instantaneous. But they do talk about ‘the fall of the Roman Empire’ which happened over many years.
We clearly need a scene in S2 where someone walks into the classroom, look at the board and mutters "Wait, that's not right." - erases the date and puts a "correct" one. :D
I’m waiting for season 2 since it involves New Vegas.
If it isn’t explained or even brought up, then I will conclude that it’s a continuity error.
Given the lack of NCR presence in the region, I'm inclined to think that the First Legion War weakened the local defenses and Shady Sands was sacked by raiders. It wasn't destroyed, but it was devastated. The NCR likely pulled out of the region (akin to Rome pulling out of Britain, perhaps, with plenty of NCR loyalists remaining but official presence being withdrawn) during the following years, which culminated in Hank blowing up the city.
It’s actually an easy fix all they have to say is the downfall started in 2277 and pretty much right after the events of new Vegas shady sands gets nuked.
Not when it dosent explain why shady sands magically moved their capital
Betty said she helped her father bury Lucy's mother. So, where is the grave? Do the vaults actually have a grave yard? No, none of them do. All the dead in the vaults are composted. There is another continuity error.
Ultimately, the show can get things wrong just like the games. Both Old World Blues and Dead Money say the bombs were dropped at night, when 3,4, and NV said it was in the morning. Ill take Todd's word over a mistake in the show.
My ONLY explanation for this is that 3 and 4 take place on the East Coast and the bombs drop at like 9 am in the morning, this would be 6 am on the west coast and in October would still be dark at 6 am. The NV issue is they re-used assets from 3 including the clocks, so that's just a massive error with resource use, not necessarily an intentional act.
@@jaysondemers8145Possibly, but I'm more inclined to believe they just made a mistake. I get lore mistakes suck, but I personally don't think this was done maliciously or because they don't care about the lore( Mainly talking about Shady Sands, but DM and OWB too).
They also moved Shady Sand's location slightly. It's supposed to be up in the mountain, where all the water is once nukes destroy all the reservoirs and aqueducts. Wheras here it's seemingly in metro LA.
Issue is that’s not the first time it’s moved lol
@@manuelmoralez2257 Is it? From what I recall it's exactly where it was relative to Vault 13 in Fallout 2. Unless there's some other map I'm unaware of.
@@AdrianArmbruster radking does a good job with showing how inconsistent locations are lol he’s got a good vid on it
I still worry that Bethesda holds some resentment towards New Vegas for it being a successful game that was not made by them and I can't help but feel that the destruction of Shady Sands and the weakening of the NCR was done with a little ill will in mind. The again I could be wrong.
Plus, the destruction of New Vegas itself in the end credits also kind of feeds that idea, like, which ending happened then? "Who cares?, it's all gone now anyways"
I think if that was the case, they would have made the show in another area to avoid mentioning NV at all.
I doubt that. The Showrunners said that they came up with the idea of nuking Shady Sands and Todd Howard was apprehensive about approving it.
@@markricheard1870 Clearly he failed at that. He could have pulled those two aside and said " NO, you have any idea the sh*tstorm this will cause for me". ACTIONS speak volumes.
Use logic, time, age of maximus, fall of shady sands means they can't sustain power production, hence why they went to secure the hover dam. Also why was the brotherhood there while it was bombed? Meaning they were loosing the war. Maybe the mojave chapter was not destroyed but actually wiped out the ncr at new vegas.
The TV series is set in 2296, which makes it impossible for Shady Sands to be destroyed by a nuke in 2277. Lucy, while not yet given a canonical age, has been noted in scripts as being in her very early 20s, with the script for "The End" marking her down as 20.
For argument's sake, let's put Lucy at 23, making her birth date being in 2273. Considering Lucy was 6 at the time of her residency of Shady Sands, that would not put her there until 2279. However, if she is 20 at the time of the TV show as per the script for "The End", Lucy wouldn't even have been born until 2276, putting Lucy in Shady Sands during 2282.
Then how did Lucy remember the plague of 77? She doesn't, Hank and Betty lied to everyone, which we already know. The Vaults dates could be wrong (by design), or there could have been an actual plague in 77, and Hank manipulated everyone around Lucy and Norm into believing that what happened in 82 happened during the plague.
While there IS a plot hole right now, it's not Shady Sands being destroyed before the events of New Vegas, it's that Lucy probably thinks it's 2291.
So, in order to make the date correct on the chalkboard, we have to assume every other date given to us in the series is misdirection. Got it.
Scripts aren't canon. For example, the script also says Norm is 2 years older than Lucy, but Lucy is Norm's older sister in the actual show.
she explicitly states in the very scene referenced in this video that she remembers how thin her dad got.... how the f does she remember that if she was 1. and if it was just a story she was told, who says stuff about "remembering" it would be phrased more like "the history of, or, as i was told" not "i remember" the age thing is a cope, she is older.
I'm annoyed that they invented this whole thing where the NCR (or just Shady Sands) was destroyed by Hank/Vault-Tec, when they already had the option of making Ulysses/The Courier nuking the NCR at the end of Lonesome Road cannon- that solves this new issue that the show has created...
Maybe it's a timeline that turns into a flowchart for digestion purposes. Our history teacher was doing this with historically recent events that hadn't fully settled yet. Frankly, so long as they don't pull the "occasional ding in the old chronometer" line from Codsworth in Fo4, I'd be satisfied.
They had an easy out, they could've said "They got the dates wrong down there in the vault"
It’s such a sad state. So many people clearly love the Fallout series yet there’s too many of the wrong people in charge including that little weasel Todd Howard, the sniveling yes man that are ruining this series and all their other IPs so they can squeeze out what they can before tossing them aside! Same as many others in the gaming industry.
Okay after some thought I can make 2077 work with the official timeline. It seems to me the only ones that are traveling from the NCR are you working for the military or government officials. It is possible is that the government is keeping it silent about the destruction of shady sands. Basically the military doesn't know that shady Sands has fallen. Most of the military has been there for decades, and they're already losing ground. The message that shady sans is following would be a Deathstroke to the New Vegas initiative. So no one tells them, and the military in Vegas believed that the NCR still strong. The reason no reinforcements are coming, it's because there's no reinforcements. The soldiers in Vegas maybe the strongest regiment in all of the NCR right now
Unless communication was so bad the inhabitants of New Vegas didn't know and the NCR didn't tell anyone.
I imagine the various traveling traders would have noticed a giant crater where a major city stood fairly quickly.
If Betty left with Hank, is it possible that Maximus is a grandchild of Betty? She would have had to leave a child in Shady Sands though.