Hope everyone's day is going well! As mentioned but not discussed in the video, there are reasons why you may not want a scrub radius of zero. I've explained that in a separate video for those who are curious about it: ua-cam.com/video/SUDMEd1bMZI/v-deo.html Also, if you enjoy scrolling through photos on Instagram, consider following EE! It's not as exciting as Red Bull's page (by an exponential quantity), but ya just might learn something! instagram.com/engineeringexplained/
How is this different (better) in terms of steering from a multilink suspension? i.e. comfy Citroen C5 (2008-) has multilink with all the benefits like TypeR Honda or Focus RS advanced suspension.
As a retired mechanical engineer, ex-hotrod/autocrosser and a gearhead for over 60 years, I appreciate Jason's excellent, cogent descriptions of engineering brought into real-life experiences we can relate to! I'm not too proud to learn from a much younger engineer who researches, learns and teaches like this. Sometimes I watch Jason's videos twice to mentally capture his analyses because engineering is about understanding systems, how the individual pieces comprise a functional whole. Young viewers who also appreciate this content should consider the profession for themselves. What appears to be an insurmountable job to novices becomes easier with experience that begins with knowing that knowledge builds on itself.
Yep! The way my engineering professors taught me was that at first it's like you're fixing the same problem but by adding those experiences and technical knowledge, you're making a mental toolbox of sorts. The more tools you have, the more ways you can approach a problem.
@@Bbronson okay it’s still slow relative to any real performance engine. If you want a fast car why would you waste your money on 4 cylinder car. Even with money in it your still gonna get gapped by a little 5.0 slow and that’s sad
Great explanation of how this car diminishes torque steer. As an owner of a Type R, I experience the same "hold-steer" effect in those high-speed turns/on-ramps, etc. It's amazing engineering and a blast to drive.
Back in the 1970s the Citroẽn GS and GSA (and indeed the Citroẽn 2CV and Dyanes, not that they had much torque to show up the problem) achieved this with inboard front brakes leaving the hub free of all that messy clutter, and leaving room for very large brake discs.
It's interesting to see the side by side view of Type R vs Base Civic. Really shows how different the suspension is. In particular, what stood out to me is the double anti-sway bar links (never seen that before) on the Type R and the much beefier lower control arm, in addition to all the other changes.
Great video. Way back in the day, the marketing campaigns tried to tell everyone that torque steer was the result of inequal length drive axles. I've proved long ago that it is not true because it made no difference going from equal length to unequal length. But in either case, I've driven some pretty fast front drive cars that were built 25 years before the 2017 Civic was even thought about, and it has never been a problem.
I've been waiting on a technical explanation of this since reviews came out. Much appreciated. Now that Honda's figured out the best way to eliminate torque steer, do you picture a FF horsepower arms race? VW limited the Golf GTI with 210hp to reduce torque steer & it still consistently outperformed cars with high power but were hampered by torque steer.
Mark Ferrer yes I can actually see this happening of vw continue to make the golf GTi clubsport coz the normal GTi is nowhere near as serious as track car as a civic type r but yeah it could be possible. However Honda are in a nurburgring war with Renault (European company), and Seat (European as well) because these companies make cars that compete with each other for the fastest front wheel drive car around the nurburgring.
Hirlarious that everyone thinks Honda invented this tech. It’s a blatant copy of Renault’s Perfohub. Renaultsport have been using it to great effect in all their Megane R.S. cars... since 2004! The Mk 2 Ford Focus R.S. copied the Renault’s design and called it Revoknuckle... in 2009!
I don't know about newer models, but pre-PSA (Pre 1980s) Citroëns didn't have torque steer. The half shafts were equal length and they had center-point steering geometry (DS, GS, SM). No torque steer whatsoever, and in case of a front wheel blowout, the car just continued to go in a straight line. And this was like 4-5 decades ago...
Would this have any advantages over double A-arm? Other than packaging of course. Thanks for another excellent video! Props for putting it on the lift and showing us in depth.
Really appreciate the explanation of handling while cornering the car and the phenomenon that feedback from the steering wheel starts to become softer. Thumbs up mate.
Seeing the clip of him even launching the Civic and having no torque steer is really cool as someone who drives a FWD car every day. If you don't then you may not appreciate it as much.
I appreciate the visuals, especially the interior shots showing the steering wheel adjustments. Really helps to drive home the points you're making. Thanks!
That tendency to hold the steering angle under power coming out of a turn, is *not* steering geometry induced torque steer. It's a side effect of the helical gear limited slip (really torque biasing) differential. Anyone who's had a Quaife, Peloquin or other torsen style differential on a high powered front wheel drive car will confirm this. I had one on my supercharged 98 GTI VR6 and it did exactly the same thing in turns. It did not do that before the diff. It also tends to hold the steering steady during hard straight line acceleration so you may be attributing a bit too much to their tricky steering geometry for that test as well.
Just explained this in my comment, glad I'm not the only one ;) + you add the AHA from Honda and you have this kind of sensation in the steering wheel.
Just thought this too. The LSD is what kept the wheel in place during the turn not torque steer. My 08 Si has an aftermarket LSD and holds a turning track when under hard accel in sweeping turns.
I just commented this also, I notice the same thing since installing a helical LSD (mfactory) in my fwd. It did not do it with open diff. Kind of helps you turn, but you can notice it resisting a lot powering through a tight s or slalom situation.
SilenceFiction well to change gear you have to lift off the throttle in a manual car. The DSG is an automated manual, still has clutches etc just has an ecu to control it all. And so to dissengage drive, the ecu cuts ignition for that split second whilst the gears are swapped, cutting ignition instead of fuel means that you get the popping/fart noises because theres still fuel being injected. And so travels down the hot exhaust, It's why DSG diesels dont fart, they dont have an ignition system do they. Does that help? Its my understanding of it anyway
Jack Gedge I think you are for the most part correct. However I do recall a journalist asking a Mercedes AMG engineer about this and part of the reason was that they intentionally left fuel injectors on while simultaneously cutting ignition to give it that sound. I think some has to do with keeping modern turbo engines in boost, however if you compare AMG sounds to, say, a 911 Turbo S, the Turbo doesnt have nearly any "fart" sound since they likely cut both ignition and fuel.
kabob21 on the over run you can use ignition timing as a form of anti lag. Wrc cars are upwards negative 50 degrees timing on overrun and they generate over a bar boost on idle! But they have boost actuators that are opening and closing the wastegate and injecting air, thats not turbo flutter it's these actuators injecting air
The S1000 engine from BMW (S1000RR, S1000R and S1000XR) in motorbikes has this "fart" sound to (but no turbo) if you drive in dynamic mode. They call it "sound acoustics". It is very loud, every time I go of the throttle or shift down this sound will created out of the exhaust. There is no technical background, BMW integrated this only because some people feel cooler with this. For me it is annoying.
I thought I had a pretty good understanding of torque steer since I had my 84 Dodge Daytona turbo, which had a lot of it, but this certainly explained it in much more detail. Thanks as always Jason!😊
+Jason Lee Exactly. I would buy this one for the performance, but I'm pushing 40 and this thing looks like a kid broke into a Lamborghini Dealership and Glued a bunch of Lambo panels to his Honda. I would feel silly driving this thing.
I miss the days of the Type R being a slightly sleeker version of a clean looking car, these things look like an early 2000's concept car made by a 15 year old.
You should check the Citroën DS, SM and GS front wheel geometry! The scrub radius and the spindle lenght are actually non-existent due to the inboard brakes ^^
Parker Oviedo You do that by not messing with the offset and spacers, unless you do both in a way that cancels eachother out (which is inferior to just using wheels with factory offset).
Still in awe on how you can explain some of the most difficult instances I have ever encountered with ease. If I try to explain certain simple things about cars to people in the most basic way possible, it will comes out like I'm some genius master engineer trying to teach somebody who doesn't know a single thing about cars how to build an engine.
dosmastrify My point was that many of us UA-camrs don’t start out with 100% clear intentions of what we’re hoping to achieve. I started out thinking this would be very similar to “how stuff works.” Very quickly that became “how cars work” because they’re quite interesting to me, and things like scuba regulators (which I do have videos on) are not quite as interesting to me. The channel name is not always applicable, because not many of us know from the beginning what we’re doing, or whether or not we’ll have any success at it. Hope your day is going well! 👍
I found this video really interesting, I didn't understood how it works until you shown the lines, then I've seen howchanged is the steering axis. Thank you for your awesome content! Be careful on the road!
Your idea is cool! but..There's too much to say about the difference among these engines that one video wouldn't be enough. Look, if you're going to talk about turbos you'll have to explain why they were used only for high performance cars and now you can see in VW Up! to make it more efficient. Explain this in detail would take a several minutes and then compare old school tubos with newest ones and explore torque curves, the feel (newest trans also play a role in it)already is a subject for one video.
EE, fantastic diagrams and explanation of steering geometry! Honda engineers definitely did their homework on this car. Can you clarify why unequal-length CV shafts cause torque steer on FWD cars?
It also allows them to put a larger wheel/tire in the same size wheel well because the tire just rotates in the same spot, instead of moving around in an arc as you turn. But of course, this video isn't about that.
I kinda wish Honda had stuck with 19" wheels and tires in the Type R. Mine is pretty comfortable but 20" wheels with rubber band tires makes the car a little rougher ride than necessary even with the shocks set in Comfort mode.
1 year ago In automotive classes, I did my portfolio presentation on this technology. The presentation lasted 15 minutes, and I bored the crap out of most of my class. The only thing I couldn't figure out (with weeks of research) is WHY the spindle length affected torque steer. I asked my best friend currently learning to become an engineer (mech) and I didn't really get an answer in terms I understood at the time. Thank you for this video!!
Funny how all the "racing" cars choose drilled rotors when we've learned that it is primarily aesthetic instead of the more functional and stronger slotted rotors. I do wonder about how much weight reduction this brings as a side benefit to the looks though.
Well it wud be rotational mass so 2.2 pds of rotational mass is the equivalent of 33pds of overall weight.i still wouldn’t get drilled only slotted rotors for me.
Great explanation. In short, they did as well as you can trying to “fix” a FWD platform for higher power... but it will always be compromised because of the architecture fundamentals. This is why my 400+HP car is a longitudinal engine with RWD. ;-)
Just saw this video but always amazed how RC cars come up with awesome engineering/suspension tuning ideas about 1 or 2 decades earlier. I saw this in the early 90s in RC cars
So u can start accelerating a little earlier, technically and the torque steer won't be a total drag? Am I understanding the torquesteer Dynamics of this car specifically, correctly?
The torque steer in the scenario described wouldn't be consistent enough to rely on to "aid" in track driving. You want the ability to start accelerating earlier out of a turn, get stickier tires. Although truthfully, the stock Continental SportContact 6 tires are probably one of the best street tires I've ever driven on.
No. It's actually the opposite. The more the wheel is turned while accelerating the more torque steer you will get. Thus when you've just passed the apex the torque steer will be worse on throttle than if you wait till the wheels straighten out a bit before giving it more throttle.
Fozee Black torque steer can't be eliminated no matter how good of a driver you are. It's a mechanical property. No matter what, if it presents itself it will make lap times slower and make for a shitty car. Ask the EG and EK Civic track community.
The original Olds Toronado from 1965 had a negative scrub radius - the steering axis was outside the tire centerline. It accomplished this by a combination of large tires, long A-arm suspension with torsion bars, and reverse-dished wheels. This gave stable handling with no torque steer, and since the Toronado was a 4500 pound car with some 400 HP, that was important. Apparently no one has built a car with negative scrub radius since then, although it worked very well in that case.
+Doc. Volt ......not if you were born in the 1960's like me, steering is way easier to me in a RWD while spinning because you don't lose your steering. a matter of experience, opinion and generation i suppose
Johnny-B Racer Yep it’s just a different feel how the different drive systems rotate when cornering under power. I’d say awd would be the hardest to get used to in how it likes to go straight sideways till you let up some. Fwd similar in that gaining traction again by letting up but still rotates around the inside tire. Blind faith and more power will corner well still. Rwd, there’s a reason the fastest cars use this system. That rear inside rotation just works, a little counter steer and again more power is your friend if you have the 😁😁 to get it done. I’d say the best system being an awd with a one way front differential, just slightly under driven. Best of both worlds, drives like rwd, execelerates like awd and hard cornering under lots of power pulls the front in. I believe the C11 turbo use a system like this? Or my personal experience or racing R/C touring cars 10yrs ago.
They're not fake. They are called air curtains and they help to smooth the airflow on the front of the car ; the air is kept closer to the body this way, which results in a smoother airflow pattern and, as a result, better aerodynamics and theoretically better top speed and fuel economy.
Very true. I think in the CTR's case, it would be more aesthetically pleasing if they didnt obviously make it look like a honey comb grill, instead going with simple black plastic with a few ribs or something (like the foglight surrounds of a Focus ST or something).
Fact ducts are a fake styling design that always comes back. Ford used to put fake shark fins on the front quarter panels of their 77-79 Thunderbirds and Lincoln MK V's.
As far as I know Peugeot was first with the revo knuckle(sorry I don't know Peugeots name for it) on the 407, they still use it on some 508s but it's mostly on the c5, it was a good design and with the double wishbone aswell it gave an excellent contact patch but it gave a lot of trouble with the swivel bearings
+ROADS thank you thank you!! And have a quick search and I think you’ll be pleased. My suspension playlist has videos on geometries, camber, caster, toe, and lots more!
I am fascinated by how some of the Japanese OEM's use this new modular chassis to make various vehicles out of the same basic architecture and how it is different from others use and what they used to do before, could you do a brief video explaining this?
The intermittent torque steer you noticed is probably due to a couple factors. Side loading causes the tire to squirm and shift the center of the tire patch relative to the wheel. Also the effect of suspension compression in the turn might change the geometry factors you mentioned. Street cars have bushings that compress, allowing geometry to change. Weight transfer combined with bumps and dips in the road can lead to some pretty big differences in geometry left to right. They could probably dial out even more of that. But then you get into the area you didn't want to get into in this video, steering feel.
There can also be torque steer from the joints in the drive shaft. Under force they have the tendency to 'straighten' putting pressure on the wheels and steering to return to center.
Then you probably think my 390/385 @ the wheels Speed 3 is pretty funny. I've had lots of "fast cars" thing it was funny too, until I pulled them. I let them catch up to me afterwards, and the dumbfounded look on their faces is priceless. Mind you, I realize 390whp isn't king-of-the-hill (even some Speeds are 800+ @ the wheels), but it's more than enough to hang with many a "fast" car. Besides that, I built it to be amazing in the twisties, and it really handles that goal well (pun intended).
The minimal torque steer that you are feeling sometimes when you turn and accelerate hard is from the limited slip differential that engaging harder because the inner tyres have less traction from the outside, so a torsen differential gives more torque to the outer tyre.
Very interresting. Thanks for a good explanation. And maybe a request: Citroën launched their steering system Diravi with the SM in 1970 and it was used until 1997 in the XM V6. It's a really cool system. Hydraulic drive-by-wire in 1970! It auto-adjusted for speed and used hydraulics for artificial feedback and the self-centering which BTW also worked when stationary. The models with Diravi has of course no tourque steer to start with. It's Citroën. They did not even have that problem in the 1920's when they started only making FWD's. But also, the Diravi models are really crazy cool regarding stability. They go straight ahead even when the road has a severe angle.
Very interesting, and comprehensive. I have a fairly high powered classic Mini with considerable torque steer, i.e. pulls right on hard acceleration, pulls left on sudden deceleration. According to David Vizard's Mini book, one reason not mentioned by anyone else, is that the crown wheel & pinion are helical gears. Thus you get side loading on the bearings to one side on acceleration, and to the other side on deceleration - the friction in the bearings being unequal. Having replaced all bushes, bearings, CV joints, mountings, 4 pin diff, tie rod bushes (firm), moving parts, everything, it still had some torque steer, less than before, but noticeable. IN THE END, I increased the torque on all the side plate flange bolts - carefully, cos the bolts go into aluminium - increasing the pre-load, and that has almost completely eliminated the torque steer, unnoticeable in normal driving. Hope this helps, and thanks for the vid.
I’m pretty sure it also self corrects for torque steer as well. It adjusts your steering for you very slightly if it detects unusual pull which you don’t notice. It also applies breaks to single wheels slightly if it senses torque favoring, even with the LSD.
Haha, what is desirable about a steering wheel not doing what you ask of it? I mean it's a bit of a fight I suppose, which could be intriguing, but from a driving standpoint it seems to be a flaw.
I agree 100% with you on that intriguing / flaw standpoint. It's just the fascination on a, let's say 200hp+ FWD car that you can FEEL the power... not only by going forward but the car wanting to go in another direction as well... Then again... you still have control over it via the steering wheel, so I don't think of it as too much of a problem really (other than the fact that it's a little lost power for acceleration). However i'm a "car guy" (with a '90 Taurus SHO) so i'm kinda used to it...
money. the competitors have more power for slightly more money. if they put awd it would cost the same as others and be heavier, and put less power to the ground. it would lose it's edge.
Make sure you talk louder and louder when you get to more and more complicated topics. Really helps me understand. I'm just kidding, these videos are really good.
you still have a running example of one of those? they shoot up in value like crazy! better restore it, it's gonna cost more than a nice bmw in 10 years!
save yourself 7 minutes he said why in the first 30 seconds, the civic type r doesnt have torque steer because it only happens in high power fwd vehicles.
Honda should throw this engine in a CRV with a bad ass AWD Transmission and make a Special Edition Rally CRV-'R' or something. No? Screw you, CRV's are awesome
Another smaller benefit is that the wheel arch protrudes less into your cabin. The size of the arch can be reduced, since the wheel as a whole doesn't move forwards & backwards.
it wasnt the same system paulwalker.. i know how it looked.. and its different further why should i respect them if they boost about there supspension even tough its from renault /ford and already 13 years old.. go watch 2f2f
hey kiddo. what did the ford rs run the ring in? now how about this honda? know your place. if senna was willing to work with them on developing the nsx then i think they know a thing or two more than you.
Tyres flex is the issue mid corner i imagine, since they are loaded unequally. Moves the pivot axis up and down and on the ground plane from side to side.
In my old Saab the torque steer would send you off the road, if you drove around with a lazy hand on top of the steering wheel. The steering rack moves around when 300NM torque is made by the engine, to fix it you could buy a steering rack clamp kit and it helped a lot.
Hirlarious that everyone thinks Honda invented this tech. It’s a blatant copy of Renault’s Perfohub. Renaultsport have been using it to great effect in all their Megane R.S. cars... since 2004! The Mk 2 Ford Focus R.S. copied the Renault’s design and called it Revoknuckle... in 2009!
Excellent breakdown of the mechanics/physics going on behind the bolts. I appreciate the overlays used in this episode (not that I don't enjoy the whiteboard....)
Ah, this explains why my engine swapped Insight is so easy to corner hard underpower to the right but have to really lean into it on left handers. I'm excited to get my New FL5 Type R delivered to check this out.
very very awesome info, dude.. i remember back about 10-12 years ago, my mom got a brand new Impala SS and it had torque steer so bad, it would all but rip the wheel out of our hand from a dead stop. wild stuff.
These are your best videos. Old technology and basic driving mechanics are fine but anyone who is a driving enthusiast already knows about that stuff. If you can leverage your growing relationships with car manufacturers to bring us the new stuff I'll keep coming back for sure.
+saturnday happy to hear it, thanks for watching! It will likely always be a mix, as I hope for the channel to be a place that non car-enthusiasts can come to as well, simply to be more comfortable with cars and understanding them.
That little hoist is amazing. Looks perfect for small spaces and light to medium cars. Do you have any videos that talk about the hoist or have a link to one?
I wonder why honda went with continetal tires over any michelin pilot super sport tires on the new type R... The MPSS and the continental sportcontact 6 tires look pretty much the same.. I have MPSS them on 2010 honda civic si and what a difference in performance.. one of the best tires I have ever owned.. Awesome video again!
One thing to throw out there as important information is that they put 19in wheels on the Type R to work with the torque steer. If you swap the wheels out for anything but that size you are prone to notice torque steer. It's something i learned in my honda training course. Not a Honda tech anymore but still have access to the tech website.
Hope everyone's day is going well! As mentioned but not discussed in the video, there are reasons why you may not want a scrub radius of zero. I've explained that in a separate video for those who are curious about it: ua-cam.com/video/SUDMEd1bMZI/v-deo.html
Also, if you enjoy scrolling through photos on Instagram, consider following EE! It's not as exciting as Red Bull's page (by an exponential quantity), but ya just might learn something! instagram.com/engineeringexplained/
Engineering Explained: basically Honda adopted the Ford Revoknuckle concept used in Mass Production for the Focus RS MK2
How is this different (better) in terms of steering from a multilink suspension? i.e. comfy Citroen C5 (2008-) has multilink with all the benefits like TypeR Honda or Focus RS advanced suspension.
Why is everyone complaining that Honda copied this technology from people who did it in 2009, when Toyota were doing it back in the early 90s?
Dilly O Not complaining, just pointing out
Thank You.
Funny how a video on torque steer helped me understand scrub radius better.
who
As a retired mechanical engineer, ex-hotrod/autocrosser and a gearhead for over 60 years, I appreciate Jason's excellent, cogent descriptions of engineering brought into real-life experiences we can relate to! I'm not too proud to learn from a much younger engineer who researches, learns and teaches like this. Sometimes I watch Jason's videos twice to mentally capture his analyses because engineering is about understanding systems, how the individual pieces comprise a functional whole. Young viewers who also appreciate this content should consider the profession for themselves. What appears to be an insurmountable job to novices becomes easier with experience that begins with knowing that knowledge builds on itself.
Yep! The way my engineering professors taught me was that at first it's like you're fixing the same problem but by adding those experiences and technical knowledge, you're making a mental toolbox of sorts. The more tools you have, the more ways you can approach a problem.
Launching it with no hands, with zero tq steer!? That's impressive
Shows how little power it has
@@tannercox4537 Yeah, 320HP in front wheel drive is very little...
@@tannercox4537 most powerful turbo i4 vtec engine Honda has ever produced but yeah it’s little power lol
@@Bbronson okay it’s still slow relative to any real performance engine. If you want a fast car why would you waste your money on 4 cylinder car. Even with money in it your still gonna get gapped by a little 5.0 slow and that’s sad
@@tannercox4537 sure but it’s way more efficient and way lighter and way more fun on the track. Plus everything is subjective
im pretty impressed with honda's execution here. they're finally making the best FWD performance car again.
*Renault enters the chat*
@@joseacuna3239 maybe when it's not broken...get the f out
Renot!
I get school girl giggles when I learn something new from Engineering Explained -- which is all the time.
Happy to hear it! Thanks for watching! :)
BPEK Supra Interactive I
Great explanation of how this car diminishes torque steer. As an owner of a Type R, I experience the same "hold-steer" effect in those high-speed turns/on-ramps, etc. It's amazing engineering and a blast to drive.
I got lost but watched the whole thing anyway.
Hey man, your videos are awesome.
sithlordsoup Me too
Renault was first with its perfo hub. Then ford with revoknuckle. Then vauxhall with hiperstrut. Honda basically late to the party.
Feel sorry for whoever Honda sells this car too
Tom New he said they weren't the first, but they executed it the best
Back in the 1970s the Citroẽn GS and GSA (and indeed the Citroẽn 2CV and Dyanes, not that they had much torque to show up the problem) achieved this with inboard front brakes leaving the hub free of all that messy clutter, and leaving room for very large brake discs.
It's interesting to see the side by side view of Type R vs Base Civic. Really shows how different the suspension is. In particular, what stood out to me is the double anti-sway bar links (never seen that before) on the Type R and the much beefier lower control arm, in addition to all the other changes.
Great video.
Way back in the day, the marketing campaigns tried to tell everyone that torque steer was the result of inequal length drive axles. I've proved long ago that it is not true because it made no difference going from equal length to unequal length.
But in either case, I've driven some pretty fast front drive cars that were built 25 years before the 2017 Civic was even thought about, and it has never been a problem.
I've been waiting on a technical explanation of this since reviews came out. Much appreciated. Now that Honda's figured out the best way to eliminate torque steer, do you picture a FF horsepower arms race? VW limited the Golf GTI with 210hp to reduce torque steer & it still consistently outperformed cars with high power but were hampered by torque steer.
Mark Ferrer yes I can actually see this happening of vw continue to make the golf GTi clubsport coz the normal GTi is nowhere near as serious as track car as a civic type r but yeah it could be possible. However Honda are in a nurburgring war with Renault (European company), and Seat (European as well) because these companies make cars that compete with each other for the fastest front wheel drive car around the nurburgring.
Then they'd increase the price buddy so that's a no no
Hirlarious that everyone thinks Honda invented this tech. It’s a blatant copy of Renault’s Perfohub. Renaultsport have been using it to great effect in all their Megane R.S. cars... since 2004!
The Mk 2 Ford Focus R.S. copied the Renault’s design and called it Revoknuckle... in 2009!
And toyota used it one the Celica rally car in 96 :D called Superstrut, its nothing new
I don't know about newer models, but pre-PSA (Pre 1980s) Citroëns didn't have torque steer. The half shafts were equal length and they had center-point steering geometry (DS, GS, SM). No torque steer whatsoever, and in case of a front wheel blowout, the car just continued to go in a straight line. And this was like 4-5 decades ago...
Would this have any advantages over double A-arm? Other than packaging of course. Thanks for another excellent video! Props for putting it on the lift and showing us in depth.
Really appreciate the explanation of handling while cornering the car and the phenomenon that feedback from the steering wheel starts to become softer.
Thumbs up mate.
The torque steer of a "normal" fwd car would have been cool to see in the video.
Seeing the clip of him even launching the Civic and having no torque steer is really cool as someone who drives a FWD car every day. If you don't then you may not appreciate it as much.
I appreciate the visuals, especially the interior shots showing the steering wheel adjustments. Really helps to drive home the points you're making. Thanks!
That tendency to hold the steering angle under power coming out of a turn, is *not* steering geometry induced torque steer.
It's a side effect of the helical gear limited slip (really torque biasing) differential. Anyone who's had a Quaife, Peloquin or other torsen style differential on a high powered front wheel drive car will confirm this. I had one on my supercharged 98 GTI VR6 and it did exactly the same thing in turns. It did not do that before the diff. It also tends to hold the steering steady during hard straight line acceleration so you may be attributing a bit too much to their tricky steering geometry for that test as well.
Just explained this in my comment, glad I'm not the only one ;) + you add the AHA from Honda and you have this kind of sensation in the steering wheel.
Just thought this too. The LSD is what kept the wheel in place during the turn not torque steer. My 08 Si has an aftermarket LSD and holds a turning track when under hard accel in sweeping turns.
Have a sentra spec v (helical torsen diff) can confirm
I just commented this also, I notice the same thing since installing a helical LSD (mfactory) in my fwd. It did not do it with open diff. Kind of helps you turn, but you can notice it resisting a lot powering through a tight s or slalom situation.
I have a 1.8vti that has a torsen LSD and can also confirm
Your best video yet. Awesome how crisp and clear you explain a truly difficult topic. Well done!
+Erik Tempelman appreciate it! I poured so much time into this one, happy to hear the feedback!
Please explain the DSG fart sound!
SilenceFiction well to change gear you have to lift off the throttle in a manual car. The DSG is an automated manual, still has clutches etc just has an ecu to control it all. And so to dissengage drive, the ecu cuts ignition for that split second whilst the gears are swapped, cutting ignition instead of fuel means that you get the popping/fart noises because theres still fuel being injected. And so travels down the hot exhaust, It's why DSG diesels dont fart, they dont have an ignition system do they. Does that help? Its my understanding of it anyway
Jack Gedge I think you are for the most part correct. However I do recall a journalist asking a Mercedes AMG engineer about this and part of the reason was that they intentionally left fuel injectors on while simultaneously cutting ignition to give it that sound. I think some has to do with keeping modern turbo engines in boost, however if you compare AMG sounds to, say, a 911 Turbo S, the Turbo doesnt have nearly any "fart" sound since they likely cut both ignition and fuel.
Alan's correct, manufacturers intentionally delay timing on overrun to make the pop-pop-pop. Just some added theater.
kabob21 on the over run you can use ignition timing as a form of anti lag. Wrc cars are upwards negative 50 degrees timing on overrun and they generate over a bar boost on idle! But they have boost actuators that are opening and closing the wastegate and injecting air, thats not turbo flutter it's these actuators injecting air
The S1000 engine from BMW (S1000RR, S1000R and S1000XR) in motorbikes has this "fart" sound to (but no turbo) if you drive in dynamic mode. They call it "sound acoustics". It is very loud, every time I go of the throttle or shift down this sound will created out of the exhaust. There is no technical background, BMW integrated this only because some people feel cooler with this.
For me it is annoying.
I thought I had a pretty good understanding of torque steer since I had my 84 Dodge Daytona turbo, which had a lot of it, but this certainly explained it in much more detail. Thanks as always Jason!😊
Man I'm telling you. If they made a stealth edition where the styling is subdued, I will buy this car.
+Jason Lee basically the new Honda Accord haha
+Jason Lee Exactly. I would buy this one for the performance, but I'm pushing 40 and this thing looks like a kid broke into a Lamborghini Dealership and Glued a bunch of Lambo panels to his Honda. I would feel silly driving this thing.
Hercules Rockefeller what do you think of the new Audi rs3?
I miss the days of the Type R being a slightly sleeker version of a clean looking car, these things look like an early 2000's concept car made by a 15 year old.
Just buy it and swap the normal civic parts and rebadge it..
You should check the Citroën DS, SM and GS front wheel geometry! The scrub radius and the spindle lenght are actually non-existent due to the inboard brakes ^^
So that means don't mess with the offsets and spacers on this car.
In general yes, but sometimes the benefits of a wider track/contact patch outweigh any detriment to scrub radius and the like.
As long as you have he proper offset you can go wider and still have a similar center point and stick out more on the inside and out
Parker Oviedo You do that by not messing with the offset and spacers, unless you do both in a way that cancels eachother out (which is inferior to just using wheels with factory offset).
Tell that to camber guys
Yep. And getting wider tires must be done on wheels with the exact same offset. Your limit of width, therefore, will likely be inbound-side related.
Still in awe on how you can explain some of the most difficult instances I have ever encountered with ease. If I try to explain certain simple things about cars to people in the most basic way possible, it will comes out like I'm some genius master engineer trying to teach somebody who doesn't know a single thing about cars how to build an engine.
Honda Engineering Explained
;)
dosmastrify My point was that many of us UA-camrs don’t start out with 100% clear intentions of what we’re hoping to achieve. I started out thinking this would be very similar to “how stuff works.” Very quickly that became “how cars work” because they’re quite interesting to me, and things like scuba regulators (which I do have videos on) are not quite as interesting to me. The channel name is not always applicable, because not many of us know from the beginning what we’re doing, or whether or not we’ll have any success at it. Hope your day is going well! 👍
Just to clarify I love the Channel, keep up the good work brother Jason
I found this video really interesting, I didn't understood how it works until you shown the lines, then I've seen howchanged is the steering axis. Thank you for your awesome content! Be careful on the road!
Create a video about naturally aspirated engines vs turbocharged vs supercharged! Torque curve differences, how they feel, etc
Your idea is cool! but..There's too much to say about the difference among these engines that one video wouldn't be enough. Look, if you're going to talk about turbos you'll have to explain why they were used only for high performance cars and now you can see in VW Up! to make it more efficient. Explain this in detail would take a several minutes and then compare old school tubos with newest ones and explore torque curves, the feel (newest trans also play a role in it)already is a subject for one video.
EE, fantastic diagrams and explanation of steering geometry! Honda engineers definitely did their homework on this car. Can you clarify why unequal-length CV shafts cause torque steer on FWD cars?
It also allows them to put a larger wheel/tire in the same size wheel well because the tire just rotates in the same spot, instead of moving around in an arc as you turn. But of course, this video isn't about that.
I kinda wish Honda had stuck with 19" wheels and tires in the Type R. Mine is pretty comfortable but 20" wheels with rubber band tires makes the car a little rougher ride than necessary even with the shocks set in Comfort mode.
1 year ago In automotive classes, I did my portfolio presentation on this technology. The presentation lasted 15 minutes, and I bored the crap out of most of my class. The only thing I couldn't figure out (with weeks of research) is WHY the spindle length affected torque steer. I asked my best friend currently learning to become an engineer (mech) and I didn't really get an answer in terms I understood at the time.
Thank you for this video!!
Funny how all the "racing" cars choose drilled rotors when we've learned that it is primarily aesthetic instead of the more functional and stronger slotted rotors. I do wonder about how much weight reduction this brings as a side benefit to the looks though.
not enough to mater. personally i prefer solid discs
Well it wud be rotational mass so 2.2 pds of rotational mass is the equivalent of 33pds of overall weight.i still wouldn’t get drilled only slotted rotors for me.
I heard that drilled rotors suck but ones with holes cast into them being made don’t
The front suspension setup reminds me of the C-Hub and steering knuckle setup of hobby grade RC cars that people race at tracks.
Great explanation. In short, they did as well as you can trying to “fix” a FWD platform for higher power... but it will always be compromised because of the architecture fundamentals.
This is why my 400+HP car is a longitudinal engine with RWD. ;-)
Just saw this video but always amazed how RC cars come up with awesome engineering/suspension tuning ideas about 1 or 2 decades earlier. I saw this in the early 90s in RC cars
So u can start accelerating a little earlier, technically and the torque steer won't be a total drag? Am I understanding the torquesteer Dynamics of this car specifically, correctly?
The torque steer in the scenario described wouldn't be consistent enough to rely on to "aid" in track driving. You want the ability to start accelerating earlier out of a turn, get stickier tires. Although truthfully, the stock Continental SportContact 6 tires are probably one of the best street tires I've ever driven on.
Torque not lost to torque steer, goes straight to accelerating torque.
No. It's actually the opposite. The more the wheel is turned while accelerating the more torque steer you will get. Thus when you've just passed the apex the torque steer will be worse on throttle than if you wait till the wheels straighten out a bit before giving it more throttle.
That is the best explanation I’ve seen of *why* torque-steer happens. Thanks so much for that!
with power/electronic steering, is it possible to program it to automatically compensate for torque steer
JogBird probably, but its going to likely be reactive and thus limited and it will tend to reduce road feel.
Fozee Black. Learning how to drive doesnt eliminate torque steer.
Fozee Black torque steer can't be eliminated no matter how good of a driver you are. It's a mechanical property. No matter what, if it presents itself it will make lap times slower and make for a shitty car. Ask the EG and EK Civic track community.
JogBird I’m pretty sure the type R does this. Also applies single wheel breaking. He didn’t talk about it.
I love your videos E.E. The best channel for car enthusiasts!
That car lift though
yeah after having a swell time today lifting my car, thats the first thing i notice in the video and im like i want it!!!
Anyone know what it is?
The original Olds Toronado from 1965 had a negative scrub radius - the steering axis was outside the tire centerline. It accomplished this by a combination of large tires, long A-arm suspension with torsion bars, and reverse-dished wheels. This gave stable handling with no torque steer, and since the Toronado was a 4500 pound car with some 400 HP, that was important. Apparently no one has built a car with negative scrub radius since then, although it worked very well in that case.
In FWD cars the torque difference at the wheels can cause steering problems, in RWD it can cause living problems :D (joke)
They both can cause living problems.
mbsnyderc ehhh i drove both. RWD is harder to control
+Doc. Volt ......not if you were born in the 1960's like me, steering is way easier to me in a RWD while spinning because you don't lose your steering. a matter of experience, opinion and generation i suppose
Johnny-B Racer born in 97 but agree with you
Johnny-B Racer
Yep it’s just a different feel how the different drive systems rotate when cornering under power.
I’d say awd would be the hardest to get used to in how it likes to go straight sideways till you let up some.
Fwd similar in that gaining traction again by letting up but still rotates around the inside tire. Blind faith and more power will corner well still.
Rwd, there’s a reason the fastest cars use this system. That rear inside rotation just works, a little counter steer and again more power is your friend if you have the 😁😁 to get it done.
I’d say the best system being an awd with a one way front differential, just slightly under driven. Best of both worlds, drives like rwd, execelerates like awd and hard cornering under lots of power pulls the front in.
I believe the C11 turbo use a system like this?
Or my personal experience or racing R/C touring cars 10yrs ago.
This is VERY impressive engineering. Great explanation. Another one of the reasons why this car is a modern-day LEGEND!
Friend, you are the best teacher! Simple and effective. Congratulations!
Love the car but those fake vents give me the shits. Great video thou.
They're not fake. They are called air curtains and they help to smooth the airflow on the front of the car ; the air is kept closer to the body this way, which results in a smoother airflow pattern and, as a result, better aerodynamics and theoretically better top speed and fuel economy.
I like this type of videos,learning about different aspects of different cars with pros and construction of why it's done is cool
Those faux ducts..... but good video on describing how to eliminate torque steer
Most modern cars have faux ducts. Sure these are very prominent and obvious, but still.
Alan Bowers yeah I know I see it all the time. I hate it. My 1st gen s2k has it but at least it doesn't encompass 80% of the frontal area
Very true. I think in the CTR's case, it would be more aesthetically pleasing if they didnt obviously make it look like a honey comb grill, instead going with simple black plastic with a few ribs or something (like the foglight surrounds of a Focus ST or something).
Fact ducts are a fake styling design that always comes back. Ford used to put fake shark fins on the front quarter panels of their 77-79 Thunderbirds and Lincoln MK V's.
Definitely. I think in the next 5-10 years that particular styling fad will once again fade away for a while (maybe for good with the rise of EVs).
I was just discussing the concept of torque steer a couple days ago. This is a great explanation.
What is devils steering and ackerman
solanki guddu It's that when you turn, the inside tire turns sharper than the outside.
The suspension layout made me think of my old Statics and Dynamics classes in college. Good 'ol free-body diagrams!
Ford RevoKnuckle :)
Yes, Honda's suspension setup here is very similar to RevoKnuckle.
Yup. 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
The original.
Renault was first with its perfo hub. Then ford with revoknuckle. Then vauxhall with hiperstrut. Honda basically late to the party.
As far as I know Peugeot was first with the revo knuckle(sorry I don't know Peugeots name for it) on the 407, they still use it on some 508s but it's mostly on the c5, it was a good design and with the double wishbone aswell it gave an excellent contact patch but it gave a lot of trouble with the swivel bearings
Your best video in a while! More videos on suspension geometry, camber, caster, and toe please!
+ROADS thank you thank you!! And have a quick search and I think you’ll be pleased. My suspension playlist has videos on geometries, camber, caster, toe, and lots more!
What car lift is that
I believe it's a Ranger QuickJack.
I am fascinated by how some of the Japanese OEM's use this new modular chassis to make various vehicles out of the same basic architecture and how it is different from others use and what they used to do before, could you do a brief video explaining this?
Citroen has done it since the 60's in all their Hydroactive suspension cars. too Bad America never had those cars :(
I used to have a Z24. It did it all the time under hard acceleration. You get used to it after awhile and can even anticipate it.
Why doesn't Civics have torque steer?
-They don't have any torque.
lol
I came here and kept scrolling exactly expecting to find this comment.
+Niklas more than the Golf R and STI.
+Engineering Explained ....how was the shifting? you looked pretty smooth in the launch
+Engineering Explained ... if you to get one of these, would you buy the new Type-R over a new STI?
The intermittent torque steer you noticed is probably due to a couple factors. Side loading causes the tire to squirm and shift the center of the tire patch relative to the wheel. Also the effect of suspension compression in the turn might change the geometry factors you mentioned. Street cars have bushings that compress, allowing geometry to change. Weight transfer combined with bumps and dips in the road can lead to some pretty big differences in geometry left to right. They could probably dial out even more of that. But then you get into the area you didn't want to get into in this video, steering feel.
Renault was first with its perfo hub. Then ford with revoknuckle. Then vauxhall with hiperstrut. Honda basically late to the party.
A good copy is better than a bad invention. :)
Peugeot had this on its 407 a good while before Renault
it did even on a basic 407 whereas today only the most powerful 508 are equipped with such a front suspension
As far as I've seen its still used in all models of the Citroen c5
My 1997 passat already had a solution for this long before the 407, use a longitudinal engine lol.
There can also be torque steer from the joints in the drive shaft. Under force they have the tendency to 'straighten' putting pressure on the wheels and steering to return to center.
Hi power front wheel drive just sounds funny.
Acureyt imo more fun going sideways in a rwd car than being quick af
Kasam I like going fast personally. At the limit driving is exhilarating because it's a constant balancing act between grip and no grip.
Then you probably think my 390/385 @ the wheels Speed 3 is pretty funny. I've had lots of "fast cars" thing it was funny too, until I pulled them. I let them catch up to me afterwards, and the dumbfounded look on their faces is priceless.
Mind you, I realize 390whp isn't king-of-the-hill (even some Speeds are 800+ @ the wheels), but it's more than enough to hang with many a "fast" car. Besides that, I built it to be amazing in the twisties, and it really handles that goal well (pun intended).
Acureyt Look up 1000 hp gti lol
Numinous your a savage man. 300 hp. Jesus must suck you right into the seat. Lol
The minimal torque steer that you are feeling sometimes when you turn and accelerate hard is from the limited slip differential that engaging harder because the inner tyres have less traction from the outside, so a torsen differential gives more torque to the outer tyre.
Very interresting. Thanks for a good explanation. And maybe a request: Citroën launched their steering system Diravi with the SM in 1970 and it was used until 1997 in the XM V6. It's a really cool system. Hydraulic drive-by-wire in 1970! It auto-adjusted for speed and used hydraulics for artificial feedback and the self-centering which BTW also worked when stationary. The models with Diravi has of course no tourque steer to start with. It's Citroën. They did not even have that problem in the 1920's when they started only making FWD's. But also, the Diravi models are really crazy cool regarding stability. They go straight ahead even when the road has a severe angle.
I kinda like torque steer
Very interesting, and comprehensive. I have a fairly high powered classic Mini with considerable torque steer, i.e. pulls right on hard acceleration, pulls left on sudden deceleration. According to David Vizard's Mini book, one reason not mentioned by anyone else, is that the crown wheel & pinion are helical gears. Thus you get side loading on the bearings to one side on acceleration, and to the other side on deceleration - the friction in the bearings being unequal. Having replaced all bushes, bearings, CV joints, mountings, 4 pin diff, tie rod bushes (firm), moving parts, everything, it still had some torque steer, less than before, but noticeable. IN THE END, I increased the torque on all the side plate flange bolts - carefully, cos the bolts go into aluminium - increasing the pre-load, and that has almost completely eliminated the torque steer, unnoticeable in normal driving. Hope this helps, and thanks for the vid.
haha blurred out speedo
hot
"We were doing a blistering 55Mph" *clearly doing 100+ with a digital readout of 55* good ol top gear
I’m pretty sure it also self corrects for torque steer as well. It adjusts your steering for you very slightly if it detects unusual pull which you don’t notice. It also applies breaks to single wheels slightly if it senses torque favoring, even with the LSD.
actually... I like a little bit of torque steer from time to time :-D
Haha, what is desirable about a steering wheel not doing what you ask of it? I mean it's a bit of a fight I suppose, which could be intriguing, but from a driving standpoint it seems to be a flaw.
I agree 100% with you on that intriguing / flaw standpoint. It's just the fascination on a, let's say 200hp+ FWD car that you can FEEL the power... not only by going forward but the car wanting to go in another direction as well...
Then again... you still have control over it via the steering wheel, so I don't think of it as too much of a problem really (other than the fact that it's a little lost power for acceleration). However i'm a "car guy" (with a '90 Taurus SHO) so i'm kinda used to it...
Excellent video... just great visual info in there! Keep it up!
Greetings from Greece!
It still should've been AWD. I don't get why they decided it shouldn't be when all of its competitors are.
TheJacobShapiro heritage. all older civic r were FWD
money. the competitors have more power for slightly more money. if they put awd it would cost the same as others and be heavier, and put less power to the ground. it would lose it's edge.
FWD is also slightly more efficient than AWD, maybe that could be one of the factors
All civics ALL civics have been fwd. They beat the competition before with fwd and still are now. Why change?
basically what i was saying. by ditching the awd you cut down on costs and weight and you get better mpg and power to the tire.
Make sure you talk louder and louder when you get to more and more complicated topics. Really helps me understand.
I'm just kidding, these videos are really good.
Even my Dacia Berlina form 1990 with 45hp has torque steer. It won't go straight for 1m sooo Dacia has more tq than the civic :)))
lol
Those old Dacias had double wishbone front suspension....which is theory is more sophisticated than this civic's
Paul Hojda with the spring rate of a water bed :)
That's putting it "softly" ;)
you still have a running example of one of those? they shoot up in value like crazy! better restore it, it's gonna cost more than a nice bmw in 10 years!
Fantastic discussion. I learned a whole lot and await re playing it.
save yourself 7 minutes he said why in the first 30 seconds, the civic type r doesnt have torque steer because it only happens in high power fwd vehicles.
Buick and Opel uses the Hi-Per Strut in the Regal and Insignia, which also have transverse FWD layouts, for reducing or eliminating torque steer.
Honda should throw this engine in a CRV with a bad ass AWD Transmission and make a Special Edition Rally CRV-'R' or something. No? Screw you, CRV's are awesome
Hercules Rockefeller all wheel drive hrv (yes, not crv) with 300hp and manual transmission. I will buy it right away :)
yeah they are. the old ones you could swap b series motors into and do all sorts of stuff to.
That would make the CR-V a roll-over trap like the Lexus used to be. Just....nope.
Another smaller benefit is that the wheel arch protrudes less into your cabin. The size of the arch can be reduced, since the wheel as a whole doesn't move forwards & backwards.
uhmmm. renault/ford had this already in 2004.. but yeah the japanese cant think thereselve..
ThaDutchDK1989 the EK9 Civic Type R had it's steering axis separated from the strut as well. Don't disrespect Japanese engineers.
it wasnt the same system paulwalker.. i know how it looked.. and its different further why should i respect them if they boost about there supspension even tough its from renault /ford and already 13 years old.. go watch 2f2f
hey kiddo. what did the ford rs run the ring in? now how about this honda? know your place. if senna was willing to work with them on developing the nsx then i think they know a thing or two more than you.
Tyres flex is the issue mid corner i imagine, since they are loaded unequally. Moves the pivot axis up and down and on the ground plane from side to side.
Because it has no tq.
Tj C but more torque than a Subaru WRX STI ;)
Don't take the bait from this troll.
😂😂
Hur dur.
Clown.
lol goteem
In my old Saab the torque steer would send you off the road, if you drove around with a lazy hand on top of the steering wheel.
The steering rack moves around when 300NM torque is made by the engine, to fix it you could buy a steering rack clamp kit and it helped a lot.
Hirlarious that everyone thinks Honda invented this tech. It’s a blatant copy of Renault’s Perfohub. Renaultsport have been using it to great effect in all their Megane R.S. cars... since 2004!
The Mk 2 Ford Focus R.S. copied the Renault’s design and called it Revoknuckle... in 2009!
I think you are on your own here, nobody thinks Honda invented this and in the video he even mentions that others use this tech.
The EK9 Civic Type R had it's steering axis separated from the strut. I believe that was made before the Renault's you mentioned.
Yea Honda didnt invent it, but they mastered it compared too all the others, bravo Honda
you the only one who think that bro , honda is just doing its things ,
I've since moved on to Nissan and German rwd cars but the old Honda kid in me from 1999 still wants to own on of these :)
My now gone, (RIP) 90 Saab 900 Turbo had some crazy torque steer stock, and it really got nuts with 254hp at the wheels.
My 2005 Accord V6 is only making 240 at the crank but torque steers like crazy on a hard launch, they've come a long way.
Excellent breakdown of the mechanics/physics going on behind the bolts. I appreciate the overlays used in this episode (not that I don't enjoy the whiteboard....)
I placed my finger on the screen on the red dot to check that you were right. And thank you for the way that you explained it, really informative.
Ah, this explains why my engine swapped Insight is so easy to corner hard underpower to the right but have to really lean into it on left handers. I'm excited to get my New FL5 Type R delivered to check this out.
very very awesome info, dude.. i remember back about 10-12 years ago, my mom got a brand new Impala SS and it had torque steer so bad, it would all but rip the wheel out of our hand from a dead stop. wild stuff.
These are your best videos. Old technology and basic driving mechanics are fine but anyone who is a driving enthusiast already knows about that stuff. If you can leverage your growing relationships with car manufacturers to bring us the new stuff I'll keep coming back for sure.
+saturnday happy to hear it, thanks for watching! It will likely always be a mix, as I hope for the channel to be a place that non car-enthusiasts can come to as well, simply to be more comfortable with cars and understanding them.
That little hoist is amazing. Looks perfect for small spaces and light to medium cars. Do you have any videos that talk about the hoist or have a link to one?
I wonder why honda went with continetal tires over any michelin pilot super sport tires on the new type R... The MPSS and the continental sportcontact 6 tires look pretty much the same.. I have MPSS them on 2010 honda civic si and what a difference in performance.. one of the best tires I have ever owned.. Awesome video again!
One thing to throw out there as important information is that they put 19in wheels on the Type R to work with the torque steer. If you swap the wheels out for anything but that size you are prone to notice torque steer. It's something i learned in my honda training course. Not a Honda tech anymore but still have access to the tech website.
Love your vids! Smart and enthusiastic about your profession!!!
This car did amazing in moose test as well. Exceptional handling
well done! very good explanations and demonstrations
Amazing video BTW, super easy to understand with the visuals
that's a really interesting way to solve this problem. I used to mess with FWD cars and torque steer can be pretty violent sometimes.
My 1995 Honda Accord Ex has the same semi MacPherson suspension. Great handling
Best explanation to date. Type R is some magnificent piece of engineering. Nice 👍