Project EP3 Honda Civic Si: Why the Suspension Sucks and How to Fix It!
Вставка
- Опубліковано 21 січ 2018
- Us nerds at MotoIQ like to think we do a pretty good job setting up a car so it handles great, but did we bite off more than we could chew with (arguably) Honda's worst handling Civic--the EP3 generation? What did we do to correct it? Did it work? Watch to find out, with MotoIQ's chassis engineer, Mike Kojima, and test driver, Karla Pestotnik!
MotoIQ Project EP3 Civic Si:
www.motoiq.com/Projects/Honda/...
You want more tech content? Subscribe and be sure to also check out MotoIQ.com!
Web Magazine: www.MotoIQ.com
Facebook: / motoiq
Instagram: / motoiq - Авто та транспорт
Suspension (7:53)
Whiteline Polyurethane Rear Bushings (8:00)
Fortune coilovers (8:35)(12:59)
10kg rear spring (9:42)
7kg front spring (10:10)
24 mm Whiteline rear swaybar (10:30)
Hardrace balljoint (11:29)
Whiteline bushings front and rear lower control arm (12:01)
Hardrace bump steer correction kit (13:08)
SHG Motorworks block (13:45)
24mm Whiteline front sway bar (14:42)
Tires (15:19)
Enkei rpf1 17x8in 35mm offset (15:40)(18:55)
235/40/17 nitto nto5 tires (15:50)
Roll fender lips (16:05)(19:00)
RSX type S hubs (16:44)(19:09)
RSX type S knuckle (16:57)
RSX type S axle (17:15)
Brakes
Wilwood 6 piston calipers (18:26)
Centrics slotted rotters, heavy duty pads, braided steel lines, caliper (19:14)
Under appreciated comment😤 thank you!
Very helpful thanks
Sorry if I missed it in the video but do you have any idea how much this might cost to run on an EP3?
Thank you
You're the man!! Thank you.
rumor has it he is still smiling to this day.
Bahahahhahaa
you all prolly dont care but does any of you know of a tool to log back into an instagram account??
I stupidly forgot my account password. I would appreciate any tips you can offer me!
@Denver Enzo instablaster ;)
@Dominick Kohen thanks for your reply. I got to the site on google and im trying it out now.
I see it takes a while so I will reply here later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
@Dominick Kohen it did the trick and I now got access to my account again. Im so happy!
Thank you so much, you really help me out!
this guy really knows his shit. i am very impressed and it was a joy to listen and learn.
Mike Kojima is import tuner OG. He is an accomplished motorsports engineer, working for race teams and OEM's over the years, and currently the chassis enginer for Daijiro Yoshihara. He's been a contributor/editor for tons of the import magazines over the years. Like you said, he 100% knows his shit :)
Suspension guru for sure.. Learned a lot from this video
Mike Kojima is an automotive engineering legend. I used to follow his project builds when he wrote for Sport Compact Car back in the day.
I currently own my second EP3, and this addressed every issue I've ever thought of with it.
I'm fairly certain he is actually a wizard.
@@MotorsandMetal same here!! Literally every suspension issue I have had.. And the fairly inexpensive fix for it..
This guy is the biggest NERD EVER!!! i love it!!!! finally someone who's talking about the science of handling from an artists POV
I bought one because I can't afford a truck, but I also enjoy purchasing 8ft long 2x4 to store in my garage for no reason at all.
The video demonstrates that Mike's understanding of the steering and suspension design of this car is quite poor. Most of the mods he recommends have the opposite of their intended effect, and many his claims about the geometry are simply untrue. And his assertions about the car's design intent have no actual basis in reality and are purely his own speculation.
It says a lot about MotoIQ that they have not corrected or removed this video.
This man is making a tech out of anyone that’s teachable!
This guy helped me understand what I needed to do to fix bump steer, and overall improve my EP3. I love watching this video. Also, it's great to know the good body structure, makes me feel like I chose my chassis well
Many of his statements demonstrate a lack of understanding about the this unique, unconventional steering design - the modifications that he recommends typically would have the opposite of their intended effect. The assumptions he makes about the design intent, and associated negative remarks, are essentially baseless, and are not accurate.
Despite being a sort of unpopular platform there's a lot of juicy info in here.
OMG, No Kidding! This guy is an Angel sent from heaven!
"This car corners like crazy." Yep! Own one myself with a lot of suspension upgrades and holy sh*t did I learn a lot about other suspension bits and steering upgrades from your incredibly informative video here. God Bless you my friend, thank you!
Right on!
Holy crap! MIKE KOJIMA IS STILL AT IT! One of my favourite contributors of the Sport Compact Car era.
Don’t have this guy speaking at a funeral. Everybody : “ why does he keep smiling” lol
Ive been saying for years that Honda should have never got rid of the double wishbone suspension. Best Motoring has a video I saved that compares the DC2 Intergra to the DC5 Integra in regards to their different suspension setups. I personally hate McPherson suspensions. I was thrilled when Porsche introduced double wishbone to the front of the new GT3. The reviews of how tossable the GT# is in a corner is remarkable. I have a 98 Accord with multilink up front. Its wonderful! The dual axis strut is what BMW and the New Honda Civic type R use. I still don't like them. Imagine how good the civic type-R would be if it wasn't compromised and employed the double wishbone or multilink suspension! Honda needs a reality check.
All the best-handling cars I've driven had some type of double-wishbone. The first-generation G20 was probably the best of all, and I remember a drive chasing a (then new) early Boxster through Glenwood canyon. He literally slowed down and did a double-take as I passed, wondering what humble sedan could possibly have kept up with him (indeed gained in every curve, to have him then pull away on every straight). By contrast my E30 325i, despite the reputation, had struts up-front and was NOT a great-handling car. It was well balanced, but it had bump steer, was radically affected by winds, and was kind of a mess on fast bumpy sections. Here's the thing, though: overall I enjoyed the E30 much more than the G20; likewise my (new-to-me) Civic Si, and even some other, humbler cars, all with struts. So even though I agree that proper wishbone-type suspensions are better, for me they don't make or break the whole car.
This is one of the greatest car videos I've seen on youtube or TV. Such a good delivery style. Super technical while still digestible to the driver looking to modify and/or solve problems with their car. Thank you guys for doing this. Mike is the man.
very good knowledge about suspension geometry! thank you, Mr. Kojima
This video helped me out a lot on my backroad banger ep3. Replicated everything here minus the control arm caster adjusters and it's a massive difference from stock clapped suspension with coilovers.
Just installed: Buddy Club N+ Coil overs, Progress rear sway bar kit, front LCA bushings, Megan Racing RCA Ball joints, and the Hardrace In-versed Tie Rod ends. Car handles so much better now! Like a go cart! So much rotation. Just need that rack slider now.
Awesome content.... this is goals for anyone wanting to upgrade their suspension for the EP3. Good job 👍👍
thanks for the tech info, only just bought my ep3 type r recently and its a good car, took it through afew canyons driving it in anger and there's afew things that were mentioned in video (bump steer, numb steering and the rear does feel twitchy at times ) good to know that they can be fixed with simple bolt ons. Great video thanks alot
You’re the absolute best! I learned so much from you since Sport Compact Car Magazine.
I followed everything here except I'm running form and function type 2s. Fr the day I got my car to today man it's like night and day. I wanted to get my suspension set up before I put my K24/k20 build in. I thank you so much!
I watched the whole video without even owning an EP3. Make a video like this for the Sentra B13 and I'll love you guys forever!
We do have one of our own....may just need to throw the "Classic" on the rack.
This video was amazing. I love the ep3 chassis
Awesome in depth explanation of the technical stuff Mike
read all the articles on the website and started pricing things out, in love with the build, payed 1200 for my beater build . Thank you for all the hard work
Ma Ca so 1200 for this set up ? Not bad at all
VERY informative and keep up the good work !!! cant wait for the K24 update .
Very cool Mr. Kojima!!! Please keep more videos coming!!!
Really enjoyed this!Need more of 15+mins of kojima videos!!
I just picked up this car today. Test drive was cool. Was used to driving a 2008 civic hybrid. So I wasn’t sure of what I was looking for as far as feel goes. Las Vegas highway driving is TERRIBLE! The North bound 95 had me feeling nervous on the way home from the purchase. I’m glad I found this video. I look forward to diving in to this thing as I go. Thanks in advance for the tips!
I think I found a great formula to build up my RSX Type S for autocross! Thanks for the info @MotoIQ
Soooo much amazing info and from experience! Please do this kind of video for every car ever made, 👍 Thanks
Thank you. Easily the best video about EP3 Suspension.
This vid helped me out so much, did all my upgrades myself & saved me so much money not to mention better handling
The FN2 was the absolute worst Civic in every way. I have always has a soft spot for the EP3.
have you ever driven one?
How is it the worst?
Handling wise, the FN2 does have some improvements over the EP3. The FN2 has a conventional steering rack that has decent enough feel for an electric rack. The FN2 rear suspension (although the beam is unfortunate), has the shocks outboard of the springs (unlike the EP3) and therefore has a much longer stroke available for the shocks. The EP3 rear shocks are unusually, and alarmingly, short. Disclaimer: I had a FN2 and now have a DC5 (basically an EP3). :)
TassieLorenzo does the dc5 have the same suspension?
TassieLorenzo I think it’s the looks of the fn2 that has always put me off has always been my least fav type r I really don’t know what it is. In order for me it has to be dc2>fd2/dc5>ek9>ep3>fk8>fk2>fn2 you’ve done well with the dc5 love them 😝
Love this guy and this technical ep!
This guy is pure smiling gold! 😊
Definitely some good information for my RSX-S
I didn't like these cars until I owned one, and now I miss it every day. If you want some more suspension advice, look to the old forums; there's a guy, mustclime or something like that, that has these dialed in.
They have some inherent geometry issues, but it's not hard to make them handle great. Look at how well loved the type r is. He had similar advice; control the roll with the back with stiffer springs and sway bar, go less bar (if any) up front and softer springs. Lowering is a death sentence past 2" or so.
These are seriously fun cars. And practical! I'm 6'1 and could walk through the back seat area (crouched, but walking) to clean it. Unlike my brother's hatch and eclipse where I could barely sit in them.
Great information Mike!
WEALTH OF KNOWLEGDE.. Thx for sharing and your TIME
Please do more videos like this. Just subscribed. Thanks.
thank you guys for all your hard work man seriously, when I got my EP3 i thought it handled great for a daily when stock, but by time the car started handling worse and worse by time " not knowing it was the rack slider taking a shit". and when lowering it it just went to solid shit. i tried looking for fixes and got stiffer bars, polyurethane front control arms, extended lower ball joints. and still had horrible wondering. and then learning about the DuPont black Delrin material rack slider from your web site it fix all the problems and made me remember why i loved this car again. and mixed with the inverted tie rods this car is solid. now i love having a great handling car with ought having a stiff harsh daily. It's a bitch to get to that point with this car, but it's worth it with it's wonky short shifter and comfortable daily. again couldn't Thank you guys enough!
My first drive in the rain after summer in the EP3 had me sideways coming off the freeway doing about 55mph. Meanwhile, the same exit in my EG8 and EK1 doing the same mundane commute, never experienced that issue. A few years down the road and I moved to an area with tons of roundabouts. EP3 was like skating on ICE even going 15mph, though my tires were pretty old (8-9 yrs) by that point so idk if that was a suspension issue. lol
Very informative! This is real suspension geometry understanding!
Thank you! Be sure to look around MotoIQ.com as it sounds like you'll really like our content.
Cant wait for the next video for the ep3 si
I like this generation of the civic but I've always heard about it being notorious for having bad handling but I never knew why. This video helped me understand more as to why it has bad handling and I'll keep this information in mind if I do end up with an EP3 one day!
Love these long vids! Really interesting car to do it on too. NSX vid maybe? Ha!
Awesome video, really loved it. Just subscribed!
I couldn't stop smiling cause I felt like you were smiling the whole time...infectious...and you look like an Asian Mannie Fresh...+1 for that...great video, too...I wanted an EP3, but not no mo
That's actually a natural reflex man, to smile when others are smiling at us.
He's just high af.
I wish I saw this video about two months ago😂 It's taken me that long to find out exactly what I need to sort my car out. Everything you said in this vid, I've already got and is getting fitted next week minus the roll centre adjusters and inverted tie rod ends, they're getting fitted a few weeks after the first lot.
This is going to be the car I learn how to drive on a track with, I can't wait😬 nurburgring before the end of the year hopefully
Mike Kojima throwing you some knowledge! Ever wonder if there was someone out there that might know everything about a specific subject. I truly believe Mike is that guy for cars.
Great informational video!
Have you ever done the engine or anything else with this? I learned more from this video then most in UA-cam combined.
man i know im late to the party but damn knowledge bombs thank you for making this video
Excellent work on the ep3/dc5 chassis. Why not run a reverse stagger tire? That's the key for racers with this platform.
😂how’s she just gonna diss my car like that
Great Info Thanks So much for making the Vid!
Very good and informative video.
I just finished the chassis on my Civic-EM2. Thanks for this video, it gave me some inspiration.
I used the SHG steering rack slider as well, I was able to do it by myself in the garage with the stock D17A2 and steering rack in the car.
I loosened the center boot on the rack from its perch's, turned the rack all the way to the side of the motor where the airbox was removed, and shimmied it out from the side and shimmied the new one in.
I also did full bushing kit on the control arms, trailing arms from Hardrace. I also used Hardrace ball joints, and adjustable rear upper control arms from Hardrace.
BC racing coilovers
The wheels were changed to EP3 Type-R wheels in Silver with 205/45-17 Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ tires.
I used base model RSX hubs/spindles/wheel bearings and RSX Type-S brake rotors, calipers, and pads. The speed sensors were retained using EP3 speed sensors.
I used OEM sway bar links and OEM outer tie rods, adjustable inner-tie rods from DaVinci Racing. I retained the factory 2005 EM2 front sway bar and 13mm rear sway bar with new bushings for both.
The car was professionally ride-height adjusted to not scrape on any of the driveways, aligned for aggressive street driving, tires were road force balanced and the car was also four corner balanced.
It's fucking amazing now.
I can't wait to k-swap. I can't decide on a swap, the possibilities are endless and I don't know what my power goals are. I've already got a DC5 subframe, DC5R hubs with buddy club roll centers, hasport motor mounts, DC5S pedal set, DC5 shifter and shifter cables. Still have a lot of parts to collect.
Wish I still lived in simi cause I would love to get some consulting on my cb7 chassis but I guess it's a lot easier then this chassis thanks for the great info Mike great wealth of knowledge here
Awesome stufffff!!! Love it!
Fantastic, and I don't even had a fwd car, very interesting and top presenting, true gentleman 👍
Awesome, always very interesting to tune a FWD
Very detailed and informative
Great to see more of you guys, but next time I hope you think of this while doing the upgrades and give us some clips of doing them and comparison of stock vs new parts and such!
yes, we will get better, this video was sort of an afterthought. We actually had doubts that the car would come out ok without major dollars spent.
Mike Kojima yeah what I guessed too, would enjoy more like this for more of the project cars! Good luck with the UA-cam stuff
Great video, thanks.
This guy definitely knows what he is talking about. I test drove this car back in 2006 when I was looking for a sport hatch. I asked the salesman sitting alongside me if the tires were low or flat. Steering felt horrendous. He told me "Oh thats the electric steering, it feels different". Terrible feeling handling and steering. Immediately noticeable.
This is awesome, can we get a similar video going through the older eg/ek chasis as well?
Thank you for this video, it helps to point in the right direction with this awfull suspension. Why did you chose the inverted tie rod ends instead of the rack riser to correct the bumpsteer plz?
How much did you drop the suspension?
Great vid, great explanations of the bump steer and roll center issues. Wish I knew to do these to my EP3 back when I was single and could mod freely. I did maybe half of what you guys did, but these extra bits (ball joints, LCA bushings, and Delrin steering rack insert) would've been very nice icing on the cake.
those pieces are really the bits that make it all work.
Yup. I also never found out why the rear springs on my Mugen suspension were so stiff (never thought to ask anyone, either), but your description of the lever arm cleared it up.
For the tires -- would a staggered setup (wider front, narrower rear) work okay?
I think its a crutch for guys who can't tune suspension. It does work though.
I'm interested to know is these mods will make the suspension stiffer or softer. I'm thinking about starting to mod my EP3, but I'm not looking to make it even more back-breaking than it already is. The stock ride quality is just a tiny bit better than a gokart imo.
The ride is not super stiff in any way as you can see in the video. However, we find the stock EP3 to be pretty soft so perhaps something is wrong with yours or it was previously improperly modded previously to make it back breaking.
Thanks for the tips .
Uncle! Loved this video.
Please considering doing a Project Gen 1 IS300 sometime in the future.
The best mod my ep3 tyoe r had was the turbo, with boost by gear that thing was an animal. Regret selling it all the time!. Recently got an fn2 type r, currently prepping that for its own turbo
Great video!
Do more ep3 stuff
I have two eps and need motivation
awesome explanations indeed! good job! where do i get those Delrin bushings from?
Awesome overview / explanation - happy to see the unloved EP3 get some MotoIQ treatment. One question: In the article, it says you used 8kg front springs, but in this video you say 7kg. Could you clarify which is correct? Also, which front sway bar setting are you running currently (inner/outer hole)? Thanks!
Its 8KG. We are currently running the front bar in the softer outer hole.
what helped in my european civic type-r was a 25mm rear sway bar, + caster bushings, + caster top mounts, shorter tie rods for more camber (-4 front and -1,5 rear with 245/40 tires). i didnt do roll center adjusters and inverted rod ends, but the feeling was allready much better this way
Yes, those mods would help.
MotoIQ that shg motorworks plate is what I always complained. They replaced the steering rack twice while in warranty but the problem always persisted. This will be my next mod
Wait..hey karla!!! Wow what a surprise to see u
Fantastic video! I have a UK model EP2. I’ve yet to touch the suspension but I want to do it right. Are these mods applicable to the EP2?
A quick google parts search yielded some very similar results for the UK EP2 and US EP3, so we think it's safe to assume these mods will apply. Just can't say with certainty since we've never had our hands on a UK EP2.
I wish to see that kind of video for E46! Plz MotoIQ!
Loving the long videos! Hope this series extends to the other MotoIq project cars *cough* S-turdteen *cough* Mike's R35 GTR *cough*
thats coming!
Mike Kojima how's the b14 dog car 2 doing? Loved your articles on that.
We just did a whole bunch of R35 Videos on our channel so check them out!
GIB UPDATE ON THE B14 DOG CAR 2!
Very informative video! I have an em2 that i take to the circuit and im aware of suspension geometry problems. This video takes my knowledge of it to another level though. Now I know my em2 wanders on the straight away and ill be ordering the shg steering rack slider. I do have a question about the ep3 ride height you guys chose. It seems like its too low and i can see the rear lower control arms are pointing up because its so low. Wouldnt this ride height be an issue on the track?
It is not ideal but rear roll center location isn't as critical on an FWD car as a RWD or AWD.
@MotoIQ, Do you think the roll center extended ball joints would be an improvement to the steering geometry at factory ride height?
Wish I still had my EP3. Great car!
Nice video - I found the biggest help to dialling out the understeer on my EDM EP3 Type-R was fitting the thicker (22mm) JDM anti-roll/sway bar (and fitted the front one for good measure as well, mainly for JDM header clearance). Installed adjustable rear camber arms, Spoon progressive springs all round (-25mm), and a lower rear brace, and the improvement was very noticeable
I followed Kojima's guide for my EP3, with the hard race roll center tie rods, end links all around, extended ball joints.
I put the 22mm type r sway bar in the rear and kept the front stock.
Along with an ASR rear subframe brace, and s2000 5 spoke wheels all the way around.
One more thing I did was k sport kontrol coilovers and k sport adjustable inner tie rods.
Handling improved VASTLY to say the least. Back end will kick out in a very controlled manner.
So would you guys recommend the JDM Dc5 Type R (22mm) oem rear sway bar over the Whiteline (24mm) rear sway bar?
@@jonathangonzalez8763 I only have experience with the type R 22mm, with the ASR subframe brace (this is 100% necessary for upgrading the rear sway bar). This along with the rest of Kojima’s suggestions is worth it.
@@familialgameaholics7618 Hmm I have an old Comptech subframe brace on my Dc5.. I wonder if that would pair with the Type R rear sway bar? Or even the Whiteline if I was going that route...
@@jonathangonzalez8763 I'm not sure, but it's worth a try.
Interesting video Mike. I was wondering if you were familiar enough with the UK Type R EP3 enough to explain what differences there are between the U.S EP3 SI and the Type R we got across the pond?
My type R is stock suspension wise apart from camber adjustment bolts/arms front and rear. It bump steers as you explained in this video, but I also find my Type R can be quite tail happy which is really fun when you play with it on the throttle :)
The suspension calibration is more aggressive but the problems with steering geometry and rack tilt still plague the car.
Thank you. I'm wondering if all the points are applicable for the TypeR as well?
What Wilwood calipers/set do you use? With these Enkei rims and ET35 are spacers required?
Love it
Have one almost with the same build and same color!
Great content! Love my EP4! Feeling the same issues can this be apply?
The issues with steering rack geometry and configuration are unique to the 7th gen cars.
More of this!!!
Me: Do I really want to watch a video on a car I don't much care about? Well it's motoiq
5 minutes in: has fundamental epiphany about suspension tuning. Thanks Mike, great as always.
Really awesome Video! Do you have a part number for the Fortune Auto Shocks by chance? Are those shocks current gen (7) or earlier?
They're the fortune auto 510 coilovers.
Awesome video
I wish I knew this stuff when I still had my EP3 type-r.
Ive been thinking about getting one. Im tired of old rusty Integras (on my second). I was worried at the beginning of this video, but im cool now.
Glad we could help!
I think it is awesome that he never stops smiling
haha!
Any ideas on where to get these inverted tie rods and raised steering rack brackets? They're sold out everywhere and nobody seems to carry anything for EP3 anymore...
I really liked the EP3 Civic Si... until I actually drove one. I enjoyed the driving position and the shifter location / engagement... but that was about it. There was zero feedback from the front tires because of the electric steering. It felt nowhere near as connected or engaging as the Honda products of previous generations. I tried to like it, but I could never love it.
I ended up buying an SVT Focus. It's the best FWD car I've ever driven, and it nearly pains me to say that, as a previous owner of a well sorted DC2 GS-R and a '92 Civic Si. The Focus's chassis and suspension setup is seriously THAT good.
Perhaps I need to import a genuine DC2 Type-R... maybe that will change my mind lol.
It's so cool to bash the EP3...even though it's know as the Type R everywhere except North America
Ive always had a soft spot for the ep3 SiR here in canada.
If someone was looking to start making suspension mods, where would you put the first $500 or so? I'm just thinking if I get a higher mileage/lower cost EP3 and can't justify doing all of these mods, what's the best bang for my buck?
Man I love this guy
I subbed I’m getting a ep3 white for 3900 but I want a decent canyon build I have a 2010 fit this will be its big brother