Great investigation. I have the predecessor PF400 and the free length of the spindle thread on this machine is shorter. Also seems to exist different spanner nuts, 27mm and 30mm. One big advantage of this quill clamping mechanism is the possibility, when light tightened, to have a very good feeling for drilling small holes. On my Sieg SX2 also the fine adjuster moves the head only via the dove tail and it is very clunky. Your modification of the clamping will increase stiffnes and reduce wear. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for your thorough rundown on this machine. The most baffling thing about milldrills is the smaller they get, the bigger they make the headstock. You cant get your head, often encumbered with magnifiers, anywhere close to the small work on the table or vise. I have mounted a small Emco mill table on top of an alloy block to get not only more height, but to allow more room for hands to mount small items. I use an Optimum 16V making tiny components for models. The old Acieras, and Schaublins with knee action, fixed quills, and vertical tables to mount smaller accessories were the best, but now virtually unobtainable. Like you, I had so much trouble with the Emco C5 mill head. Did the same. Great motor which I still use but fixed, and use a lathe vertical milling attachment for vertical movement. My long gone Emco C5 lathe was a waste of space which showed how badly Emco were cheaping out at the time. I was happy with my old Maximat lathe, but went for a Wabeco D2400, on which I can do amazingly precise work. Thanks for your review on the PD400, which I was tempted to, but went Wabeco instead.
I am glad you are satisfied with your machine. I was looking at that mill before I made a different choice. My main objectives was the (obviously) hollow aluminum column, the quill, and the lack of general tool fitting alternatives. ER20 collets are great, but I want collets as one alternative among others. I also want T-slots that fit normal standard T-nuts, 10 mm or wider. I own two Proxxon machines and I am still puzzled by their weird "sandwich design" philosophy, or maybe we shall call it calculated life span design. The mix of aluminum, Zamak, steel, and plastic, limits the machine's rigidity, durability, and modifiablity. Some steel parts are really well made, they catch the eye of novice machinists like me, but it's a trap. After every improvement I have applied to my PD250 lathe it doesn't take long before something else comes loose or the cutting tool begins chattering without any comprehensible cause. Anyway, I made the opposite choice to Your's and bought a "small" 70 kg Chinese mill. Honestly, there are visible traces of a long journey through the Suez channel, but they kindly supplied two small buckets with touch up paint, that's caring! :-). I haven't made much measurements yet but will try to do so eventually. After tweeking the head tilt a little, my fly cutter and shell mills produce a very good surface finish. My impressions so far is that the machine is well built.The slide ways are scraped and runs smoothly and precise. The column can be cranked up and down without any obvious error (I have checked that with an indicator). This is not true for some Proxxon models. If the mill can't reproduce the position of the tool after Z ups and downs, how could a tool change be made without throwing precision away? My Chinese machine has a noisy gear box, but the bearings are beefy. A taller column would be useful, but that would imply another 50-100 kg of weight. I have come to some conclusions about machine shopping which I will try to follow next time. Start at the tool tip, look bottom up, and think modular and consider open standard solutions. What tools do you need? If you think there are tools you don't need, don't be silly, there aren't any. So if we for example want to use a fly cutter, a shell mill, and a boring head, there must be a way to fit those gadgets in the spindle in a rigid way, without extra intermediate holders or adapters. In my current set up I have, as one option, an ER collet chuck with MT 2 taper, which I can use both in the mill for tool holding, and in the lathe for work holding. Very handy! MT 2 seems to be a minimum for a reasonable flexible tool holding. A few questions: have you considered to look at the TouchDRO system? Would it work with your scales? I think their approach has some important advantages such as: better graphics, and utilizing high quality floating point arithmetic in an Android tablet, instead of some unknown third party processor. Moreover, a software based solution is updatable. What lubrication do you apply to the slide ways? I recently bought a bottle of Omicron 408, a CGLP 68 (ISO VG 68) slide way oil. I used engine oil earlier, and it works, of course. But slide way oils are designed especially for slowly moving bearing surfaces. That's all for now. No more milling until next year!
For lubrication I bought years ago one liter of Mobil DTE 24 oil. I think it will outlast me.. Touch DRO, I considered it but didn't choose it. I didn't like the idea of a fragile tablet that you have to charge and of course becomes obsolete after a few years due to new OS and app versions that no longer run on it. I don't care about the extra graphics, and I don't see what high quality floating point improves on the simple calculations in a DRO. I suppose the Touch DRO system will work with my quite standard magnetic scales, but I am not sure. Quinn (BlondiHacks) made a video about her TouchDRO system. Watching her video makes me glad again that I chose the magnetic strips instead of those bulky rulers. You might take a look: ua-cam.com/video/KufORj-o__I/v-deo.html Happy 2023!
@@Michel-Uphoff I made similar observations about a tablet based system. Both styles have their merits. I just received a Ditron D80 screen. I like the LCD screen, it's quite informative. Especially for hole circles and similar. It was shipped from Ditron's factory outlet in Poland, VAT included. Maybe I made a mistake ordering custom length scales, because they had to order them from China. I wouldn't be surprised if the Swedish customs forces med to pay the VAT once again. Q: Is there any particular reason to connect the extra ground terminal at the back side to the chassis of the mill? I made a simple beep check to verify that the terminal is already connected to the mill via the mains cords.
That looks like a nice DRO to me, it also knows linear and non-linear compensation, which is excellent. As long as the chassis of the DRO and the mill are connected, the shielding of the sensitive read heads should be adequate. You used a grounded socket for both the mill and the DRO? If so, it's OK.
@@Michel-Uphoff Oh dear, it took only two weeks for the D80 to crash. When I connected the mains this morning, the display sent a quick flash and died, and a continous beep started to sound. I have noticed earlier that the unit sometimes starts up autonomously on power connection. What a disappointment, this will most likely be a long and expensive journey.
@@paullehmor982 Oh dear, what a bad luck Paul! I assume you have the standard warranty? I have sold a lot of electronics in my working life, and my experience is that problems usually occur in the first days / weeks. If it still works after that, it will most times last for many years.
Michel, nice work. Isn't there any possibility to shim/adjust the leaning column? On the base there are probably some screws who tighten the column to the base. I have shim stock starting at 10 um with 1um increments. I don't have the dimensions of the mill and I'm not sure if this is in range. Otherwise you could machine a thin interface part with a counteracting angle in it? Happy new year and all the best, Job
Hi Job, Yes, I am pondering about shimming the column, or scraping away just a tiny amount of material at the front surface of the base. But before I do that, I want to measure the deviations very carefully a number of times and see if I get consistent results and if I can find the source (base, column, uneven tightening of the four allen bolts, combination of errors..). The depth of the column is 10 cm, so if the cause is an out-of-square end, the error will be roughly 0.02 mm and should be easy to determine on my surface plate. Adjusting with 20µ shims should then be sufficient. But before I do that, I want to fix that slack in the headstock. I have already ordered the bronze bearings. Perhaps I will appeal to you for advice and help, because without a milling machine and a lathe that is too small for this task, very accurately cutting the two recesses becomes difficult. Happy new year to you and your loved ones!
Very good review. I would forget about the slit, and keep the bore clean and precise. I would make one from solid metal and bore it to size. For clamping, i would use a brass round bar, with the length of the width of the spindle housing, in the center of the brass bar a round cutout, the cutout has the radius of the spindle, saw in 2 pieces, one piece has tread and the other piece a hole, then you can tighten the 2 pieces together with a botl, and insert from the side , then slide the spindle in the bore.Then you can clamp the spindle when tighten the 2 pieces of brass.
Of course you can also make a completely new headstock. However, I chose not to, because my machines are not heavy enough for that. But even then I would use bronze instead of brass. (phosphor) bronze is a far more suitable bearing material.
No, it's not averaging. It's harder to see in this video. The display is jumping to 4000 rpm in 20 steps, and every step takes roughly 0.6 seconds. It's just a pretty bad implementation. The spindle takes around 2 seconds to rev up to 4000 rpm, so every time I change the rpm I have to wait a handful or more seconds before I can read the actual rpm. Still have to fix that..
No, this version has very ordinary M16 spindles, and not of a very high quality in my opinion. I just started removing 0.7mm of backlash on the x-axis. I think that's a lot for a machine that has been used for 4 years. I will publish a video of this soon. Maybe in the future I will do a conversion to ball screws myself.
Welke rails bedoel je? Ik heb de magnetische strips met de zelfklevende laag direct op het bed gelijmd. Bij het grote langsbed in de al aanwezige groef voor een niet noodzakelijke schuifliniaal. Misschien bedoel je wat anders dan ik lees?
Yes, that possible, but not with this mill. The PF230 can be attached to the PD400 lathe, see these links: www.proxxon.com/us/micromot/34104.php www.proxxon.com/en/micromot/24400.php
Thanks for making this video. I'm considering to buy one. Is this a good mill for starters? Is it accurate enough to create engineering fits (for example press fit or sliding fit) in (high grade alloy) steel?
For starters it's an excellent mill. Accurate, but small. Provided you have sharp tools and the workpieces remain small, this milling machine is suitable for precise work with materials with good to moderate machinability.
@@Michel-Uphoff Proxxon is way too expensive for me, I usually end up going with a cheaper import and spend some time improving it. I know what I'm getting, there can only be pleasant surprises there 😆 If I had $5-6k AUD budget which is what the FF500 costs here in Australia, then I'd end up buying an Optimum MB4 or similar RongFu clone and tweak it a bit.
@@Michel-Uphoff I have a Sieg SX3L milling machine that I had to tram and slightly modify the drawbar for self ejection. Paid about 1800 AUD on sale. It's very capable but still a poorly made machine.
Excellent review, thanks for sharing. Proxxon should do much better machines if they want to deserve their that prices. I always use fbs 240 for years and current one is my 8th I guess.Same weak control card, same week motor.Burn easily
Dat was bij Trabiss, maar die blijken failliet.. Je zou de fabrikant even kunnen vragen: ateksensor.com/en/product/mls-130-series-magnetic-reader-sensor-atek-made-in-turkiye/
The tachometer is easy to fix if it bothers you that much. Buy one that cost more than 4 Euro's. That expensive Proxxon sure has some cheapy Chinese parts on it & a pretty bad column that they probably did make in Germany. I've used those tacho's on my wood lathes & the worst is when at a stop they take ages to go back to zero as they only read every few seconds I think!
@@Michel-Uphoff I think you were the one fixing it & strengthening it but I'd say the aluminium section is too thin & shouldn't have been made from aluminium in the first place. Steel would have been much better but not as cheap to produce. Proxxon definitely seem to favour aesthetics over quality components.
@@Michel-Uphoff Also, that potentiometer is on their power supplies & is just as bad. Good engineering died a long time ago, now replaced with university graduates that have never held a screwdriver in their lives or worked in the real world. That's why you see all the design flaws on the mill & lathe. They have no clue how chips fly around a machine so you had to fix that for them on £2500+ machines.
I agree that there are some weaknesses in the design that someone with enough practical experience would probably have discovered. In addition, some parts are somewhat disappointing in terms of quality, such as the potentiometer and tachometer. I don't actually know if the column is really that bad. I haven't seen anyone anywhere who, like me, has actually measured x and y rigidity and torsion resistance. In other words, I lack objective comparison material. So, for me, the jury is still out. By the way, I paid just under € 2000 for this milling machine.
@@Michel-Uphoff I'm in the UK so more expensive. I don't think your rigidity issue was a "defect" in your machine but a design flaw. Some men, especially men, won't moan about an item that cost them a lot of money so they just carry on & live with the flaws. After years of buying cheap tools, I decided to spend some real money on tools & bought 5 smaller Proxxon tools, including their most expensive drill/grinder. I sent 4 back as not fit for purpose. The only one I kept was the pen sander. All the work you put into fixing your machines is what you do with cheap tools, not expensive. At least you have the knowledge & experience to make them right. Anyway, watched all your vids even though some are way over my head, keep it up
At 12:00 you can see me pushing and pulling at the headstock while a dial indicator at a distance of 10 cm from the center of the quill touches the bed. The measured movement is less than 0,01 mm. I hardly have any rigidity issues with this machine, as long as I keep the d.o.c. and speed within reasonable limits. Of course, this is only a very limited assessment of rigidity, and if you know of a way to determine it objectively and repeatable by others on other machines, then I would really appreciate your insights.
@@Michel-Uphoff The rigidity of such a small machine is determined by bending at a force of 10 kg. The measurement is made along all three axes. The maximum value for cutting steel is 0.01 mm. The force application and measuring point is the spindle chuk.
@@SergeiPetrov Interesting! I assume at the lowest tip of an empty chuck? And as for the Z-axis, do I choose the top or bottom position there? There are of course also several possibilities for the opposite measurement side, I assume that will be the point on the bed directly under the spindle? And while all axes are in the middle position? What are the criteria for small, medium and large mills e.g. dimensions, mill type, mass, force (not kg, but N) maximum deflection? I would really like to know the source of these criteria, can you please provide it to me?
@@Michel-Uphoff ISO 230-1:2012 "Test code for machine tools. Part 1. Geometric accuracy of machines operating under no-load or quasi-static conditions", IDT Limit 20.0kH -- 0.28 mm
In this ISO document test methods and metrological conditions are described exhaustively. Very useful, thank you! But nowhere do I come across the values you suggested (e.g. small mill: 10 kg, 0.01mm). Is there a data sheet somewhere with practical values? As far as I know there seems to be no good source of absolute deflection specs around. At CNC zone I read this: Load 25Kgf on spindle nose (direction X,Y,Z): Hobby machine 25kgf deflects >0.1mm Good hobby machine 25kgf
looks like they made the base and table very nicley then ran out of money. that alluminium collumn! suppose you could fill it with epoxy granite cement to improve regidity and damp vibrations. will still ware quickly thoguh :(
In fact, it's not too bad. Of course a solid steel column would be more rigid than this hollow aluminum column, but it has a large cross-section and is therefore more rigid than you might think. As for wear, the aluminum is hard anodized, which forms a very wear-resistant layer. After more than two years of (sometimes intensive) use, there is still no visible wear on the ways. Epoxy concrete will probably have a damping effect. Maybe I'll do that sometime.
As for the rigidity of that aluminum column, it is good in X and Y direction, but the design allows more torsion than I would like. I expect that stuffing the column up with epoxy and a filler will improve this in particular.
@@Michel-Uphoff yes it probably would, your headstock is a bit underwhelming for that power motor though as well which probably isn't helping. it's a shame as the table looks nicer than the table on my chinese mill. i'm embarking on my own epoxy granite/sticky mess making adventure to improve various proxxon and chinese machines right now!
@@bol8lod This are the sensors: www.alfasanayi.com/en/component/content/article/142-products/magnetic-linear-encoders/638-mls-130-series-magnetic-reader-sensor-atek-made-in-turkey.html?Itemid=805 The magnetic tape here: trabiss.nl/shop/mikronel-magneettape-b-series And the DRO here: trabiss.nl/shop/d60-2v-digitale-uitlezing-2-assen/
At almost €3,000 with so many shortcomings this is a non-starter for me. I find Proxxon increasingly annoying. You pay for the fancy design and then you are, like with any random Chinesium mill, in for a host of corrections before it runs as it should. Na. I am happy with my MF70 because it suits the bill for my modelling activities but if I would buy a proper mill a would certainly not consider a Proxxon.
I paid just under $2000 for this machine. Incidentally, I think this machine is a lot better than any cheap Chinese model. But this machine also has a few weak spots, I don't think the perfect machine exists.
Thank you for taking the time to share it all with such details .. well done 👏 👏
Great investigation.
I have the predecessor PF400 and the free length of the spindle thread on this machine is shorter. Also seems to exist different spanner nuts, 27mm and 30mm.
One big advantage of this quill clamping mechanism is the possibility, when light tightened, to have a very good feeling for drilling small holes. On my Sieg SX2 also the fine adjuster moves the head only via the dove tail and it is very clunky. Your modification of the clamping will increase stiffnes and reduce wear. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for your thorough rundown on this machine. The most baffling thing about milldrills is the smaller they get, the bigger they make the headstock. You cant get your head, often encumbered with magnifiers, anywhere close to the small work on the table or vise. I have mounted a small Emco mill table on top of an alloy block to get not only more height, but to allow more room for hands to mount small items. I use an Optimum 16V making tiny components for models. The old Acieras, and Schaublins with knee action, fixed quills, and vertical tables to mount smaller accessories were the best, but now virtually unobtainable. Like you, I had so much trouble with the Emco C5 mill head. Did the same. Great motor which I still use but fixed, and use a lathe vertical milling attachment for vertical movement. My long gone Emco C5 lathe was a waste of space which showed how badly Emco were cheaping out at the time. I was happy with my old Maximat lathe, but went for a Wabeco D2400, on which I can do amazingly precise work. Thanks for your review on the PD400, which I was tempted to, but went Wabeco instead.
Very nice work. Nice mill. May you enjoy it for many years to come.
This video was pure entertainment. Thank you for making these videos.
Michel. Another great video. Thank you.
I am glad you are satisfied with your machine. I was looking at that mill before I made a different choice. My main objectives was the (obviously) hollow aluminum column, the quill, and the lack of general tool fitting alternatives. ER20 collets are great, but I want collets as one alternative among others. I also want T-slots that fit normal standard T-nuts, 10 mm or wider. I own two Proxxon machines and I am still puzzled by their weird "sandwich design" philosophy, or maybe we shall call it calculated life span design. The mix of aluminum, Zamak, steel, and plastic, limits the machine's rigidity, durability, and modifiablity. Some steel parts are really well made, they catch the eye of novice machinists like me, but it's a trap. After every improvement I have applied to my PD250 lathe it doesn't take long before something else comes loose or the cutting tool begins chattering without any comprehensible cause. Anyway, I made the opposite choice to Your's and bought a "small" 70 kg Chinese mill. Honestly, there are visible traces of a long journey through the Suez channel, but they kindly supplied two small buckets with touch up paint, that's caring! :-). I haven't made much measurements yet but will try to do so eventually. After tweeking the head tilt a little, my fly cutter and shell mills produce a very good surface finish. My impressions so far is that the machine is well built.The slide ways are scraped and runs smoothly and precise. The column can be cranked up and down without any obvious error (I have checked that with an indicator). This is not true for some Proxxon models. If the mill can't reproduce the position of the tool after Z ups and downs, how could a tool change be made without throwing precision away? My Chinese machine has a noisy gear box, but the bearings are beefy. A taller column would be useful, but that would imply another 50-100 kg of weight. I have come to some conclusions about machine shopping which I will try to follow next time. Start at the tool tip, look bottom up, and think modular and consider open standard solutions. What tools do you need? If you think there are tools you don't need, don't be silly, there aren't any. So if we for example want to use a fly cutter, a shell mill, and a boring head, there must be a way to fit those gadgets in the spindle in a rigid way, without extra intermediate holders or adapters. In my current set up I have, as one option, an ER collet chuck with MT 2 taper, which I can use both in the mill for tool holding, and in the lathe for work holding. Very handy! MT 2 seems to be a minimum for a reasonable flexible tool holding. A few questions: have you considered to look at the TouchDRO system? Would it work with your scales? I think their approach has some important advantages such as: better graphics, and utilizing high quality floating point arithmetic in an Android tablet, instead of some unknown third party processor. Moreover, a software based solution is updatable. What lubrication do you apply to the slide ways? I recently bought a bottle of Omicron 408, a CGLP 68 (ISO VG 68) slide way oil. I used engine oil earlier, and it works, of course. But slide way oils are designed especially for slowly moving bearing surfaces. That's all for now. No more milling until next year!
For lubrication I bought years ago one liter of Mobil DTE 24 oil. I think it will outlast me..
Touch DRO, I considered it but didn't choose it. I didn't like the idea of a fragile tablet that you have to charge and of course becomes obsolete after a few years due to new OS and app versions that no longer run on it. I don't care about the extra graphics, and I don't see what high quality floating point improves on the simple calculations in a DRO. I suppose the Touch DRO system will work with my quite standard magnetic scales, but I am not sure.
Quinn (BlondiHacks) made a video about her TouchDRO system. Watching her video makes me glad again that I chose the magnetic strips instead of those bulky rulers.
You might take a look: ua-cam.com/video/KufORj-o__I/v-deo.html
Happy 2023!
@@Michel-Uphoff I made similar observations about a tablet based system. Both styles have their merits. I just received a Ditron D80 screen. I like the LCD screen, it's quite informative. Especially for hole circles and similar. It was shipped from Ditron's factory outlet in Poland, VAT included. Maybe I made a mistake ordering custom length scales, because they had to order them from China. I wouldn't be surprised if the Swedish customs forces med to pay the VAT once again. Q: Is there any particular reason to connect the extra ground terminal at the back side to the chassis of the mill? I made a simple beep check to verify that the terminal is already connected to the mill via the mains cords.
That looks like a nice DRO to me, it also knows linear and non-linear compensation, which is excellent.
As long as the chassis of the DRO and the mill are connected, the shielding of the sensitive read heads should be adequate. You used a grounded socket for both the mill and the DRO? If so, it's OK.
@@Michel-Uphoff Oh dear, it took only two weeks for the D80 to crash. When I connected the mains this morning, the display sent a quick flash and died, and a continous beep started to sound. I have noticed earlier that the unit sometimes starts up autonomously on power connection. What a disappointment, this will most likely be a long and expensive journey.
@@paullehmor982
Oh dear, what a bad luck Paul!
I assume you have the standard warranty?
I have sold a lot of electronics in my working life, and my experience is that problems usually occur in the first days / weeks. If it still works after that, it will most times last for many years.
Michel, Thanks for the DRO info.
Michel, nice work. Isn't there any possibility to shim/adjust the leaning column? On the base there are probably some screws who tighten the column to the base. I have shim stock starting at 10 um with 1um increments. I don't have the dimensions of the mill and I'm not sure if this is in range. Otherwise you could machine a thin interface part with a counteracting angle in it? Happy new year and all the best, Job
Hi Job,
Yes, I am pondering about shimming the column, or scraping away just a tiny amount of material at the front surface of the base.
But before I do that, I want to measure the deviations very carefully a number of times and see if I get consistent results and if I can find the source (base, column, uneven tightening of the four allen bolts, combination of errors..).
The depth of the column is 10 cm, so if the cause is an out-of-square end, the error will be roughly 0.02 mm and should be easy to determine on my surface plate. Adjusting with 20µ shims should then be sufficient.
But before I do that, I want to fix that slack in the headstock. I have already ordered the bronze bearings. Perhaps I will appeal to you for advice and help, because without a milling machine and a lathe that is too small for this task, very accurately cutting the two recesses becomes difficult.
Happy new year to you and your loved ones!
@@Michel-Uphoff let me know if I can help you with my equipement and expierience. Best, Job
Very good review. I would forget about the slit, and keep the bore clean and precise. I would make one from solid metal and bore it to size. For clamping, i would use a brass round bar, with the length of the width of the spindle housing, in the center of the brass bar a round cutout, the cutout has the radius of the spindle, saw in 2 pieces, one piece has tread and the other piece a hole, then you can tighten the 2 pieces together with a botl, and insert from the side , then slide the spindle in the bore.Then you can clamp the spindle when tighten the 2 pieces of brass.
Of course you can also make a completely new headstock. However, I chose not to, because my machines are not heavy enough for that. But even then I would use bronze instead of brass. (phosphor) bronze is a far more suitable bearing material.
11:00 - Looks like it's averaging to avoid constant flicking between numbers. You may find it annoying but it's on purpose.
No, it's not averaging. It's harder to see in this video. The display is jumping to 4000 rpm in 20 steps, and every step takes roughly 0.6 seconds. It's just a pretty bad implementation. The spindle takes around 2 seconds to rev up to 4000 rpm, so every time I change the rpm I have to wait a handful or more seconds before I can read the actual rpm. Still have to fix that..
Does it have ball screws (I believe "FF 500/BL-CNC-ready" does have) or std threaded rod for axis movement?
No, this version has very ordinary M16 spindles, and not of a very high quality in my opinion. I just started removing 0.7mm of backlash on the x-axis. I think that's a lot for a machine that has been used for 4 years. I will publish a video of this soon.
Maybe in the future I will do a conversion to ball screws myself.
@@Michel-Uphoff Thanks for the answer. Interesting to see what would it take to update to ballscrews.
Fantastische video! Zou je misschien wat meer kunnen vertellen over hoe je de DRO rails gemaakt hebt?
Welke rails bedoel je?
Ik heb de magnetische strips met de zelfklevende laag direct op het bed gelijmd.
Bij het grote langsbed in de al aanwezige groef voor een niet noodzakelijke schuifliniaal.
Misschien bedoel je wat anders dan ik lees?
Warm greetings from Linz/Austria!
Do you know whether you can also attach the milling machine to the Proxxon PD 400 lathe?
Yes, that possible, but not with this mill. The PF230 can be attached to the PD400 lathe, see these links: www.proxxon.com/us/micromot/34104.php
www.proxxon.com/en/micromot/24400.php
Thanks for sharing. How is the noise level?
Just the mill is very silent. At low rpm you can hardly hear it, And at higher revs there is a fairly soft hum.
@@Michel-Uphoff thx for answer, very good 😊
Thanks for making this video. I'm considering to buy one. Is this a good mill for starters? Is it accurate enough to create engineering fits (for example press fit or sliding fit) in (high grade alloy) steel?
For starters it's an excellent mill. Accurate, but small. Provided you have sharp tools and the workpieces remain small, this milling machine is suitable for precise work with materials with good to moderate machinability.
Ouch, I've done similar mistakes but haven't drilled into the table yet although I have dropped a few things and dented it in a few places 😬
I still blame Proxxon more than it was my fault. They should never have supplied such bad spanners.
@@Michel-Uphoff Proxxon is way too expensive for me, I usually end up going with a cheaper import and spend some time improving it. I know what I'm getting, there can only be pleasant surprises there 😆
If I had $5-6k AUD budget which is what the FF500 costs here in Australia, then I'd end up buying an Optimum MB4 or similar RongFu clone and tweak it a bit.
@@Michel-Uphoff I have a Sieg SX3L milling machine that I had to tram and slightly modify the drawbar for self ejection. Paid about 1800 AUD on sale. It's very capable but still a poorly made machine.
@@HM-Projects $ 5.5AUD? Sjeezzz... that's almost double the price I payed!
Excellent review, thanks for sharing. Proxxon should do much better machines if they want to deserve their that prices. I always use fbs 240 for years and current one is my 8th I guess.Same weak control card, same week motor.Burn easily
Goedemorgen Michel vraag waar heb je die Atek kunnen kopen.
Dat was bij Trabiss, maar die blijken failliet..
Je zou de fabrikant even kunnen vragen: ateksensor.com/en/product/mls-130-series-magnetic-reader-sensor-atek-made-in-turkiye/
Ik woon ook in Nederland. Regio Eindhoven toevallig?
Nee, Utrecht
The tachometer is easy to fix if it bothers you that much. Buy one that cost more than 4 Euro's. That expensive Proxxon sure has some cheapy Chinese parts on it & a pretty bad column that they probably did make in Germany. I've used those tacho's on my wood lathes & the worst is when at a stop they take ages to go back to zero as they only read every few seconds I think!
What, in your opinion, is so bad about the column?
@@Michel-Uphoff I think you were the one fixing it & strengthening it but I'd say the aluminium section is too thin & shouldn't have been made from aluminium in the first place. Steel would have been much better but not as cheap to produce. Proxxon definitely seem to favour aesthetics over quality components.
@@Michel-Uphoff Also, that potentiometer is on their power supplies & is just as bad. Good engineering died a long time ago, now replaced with university graduates that have never held a screwdriver in their lives or worked in the real world. That's why you see all the design flaws on the mill & lathe. They have no clue how chips fly around a machine so you had to fix that for them on £2500+ machines.
I agree that there are some weaknesses in the design that someone with enough practical experience would probably have discovered. In addition, some parts are somewhat disappointing in terms of quality, such as the potentiometer and tachometer. I don't actually know if the column is really that bad. I haven't seen anyone anywhere who, like me, has actually measured x and y rigidity and torsion resistance. In other words, I lack objective comparison material. So, for me, the jury is still out. By the way, I paid just under € 2000 for this milling machine.
@@Michel-Uphoff I'm in the UK so more expensive. I don't think your rigidity issue was a "defect" in your machine but a design flaw. Some men, especially men, won't moan about an item that cost them a lot of money so they just carry on & live with the flaws. After years of buying cheap tools, I decided to spend some real money on tools & bought 5 smaller Proxxon tools, including their most expensive drill/grinder. I sent 4 back as not fit for purpose. The only one I kept was the pen sander. All the work you put into fixing your machines is what you do with cheap tools, not expensive. At least you have the knowledge & experience to make them right. Anyway, watched all your vids even though some are way over my head, keep it up
But where is the stiffness of a machine measured?
At 12:00 you can see me pushing and pulling at the headstock while a dial indicator at a distance of 10 cm from the center of the quill touches the bed. The measured movement is less than 0,01 mm. I hardly have any rigidity issues with this machine, as long as I keep the d.o.c. and speed within reasonable limits.
Of course, this is only a very limited assessment of rigidity, and if you know of a way to determine it objectively and repeatable by others on other machines, then I would really appreciate your insights.
@@Michel-Uphoff The rigidity of such a small machine is determined by bending at a force of 10 kg. The measurement is made along all three axes. The maximum value for cutting steel is 0.01 mm. The force application and measuring point is the spindle chuk.
@@SergeiPetrov Interesting!
I assume at the lowest tip of an empty chuck? And as for the Z-axis, do I choose the top or bottom position there?
There are of course also several possibilities for the opposite measurement side, I assume that will be the point on the bed directly under the spindle? And while all axes are in the middle position? What are the criteria for small, medium and large mills e.g. dimensions, mill type, mass, force (not kg, but N) maximum deflection?
I would really like to know the source of these criteria, can you please provide it to me?
@@Michel-Uphoff ISO 230-1:2012 "Test code for machine tools. Part 1. Geometric accuracy of machines operating under no-load or quasi-static conditions", IDT
Limit 20.0kH -- 0.28 mm
In this ISO document test methods and metrological conditions are described exhaustively. Very useful, thank you! But nowhere do I come across the values you suggested (e.g. small mill: 10 kg, 0.01mm). Is there a data sheet somewhere with practical values? As far as I know there seems to be no good source of absolute deflection specs around.
At CNC zone I read this:
Load 25Kgf on spindle nose (direction X,Y,Z):
Hobby machine 25kgf deflects >0.1mm
Good hobby machine 25kgf
looks like they made the base and table very nicley then ran out of money. that alluminium collumn! suppose you could fill it with epoxy granite cement to improve regidity and damp vibrations. will still ware quickly thoguh :(
In fact, it's not too bad. Of course a solid steel column would be more rigid than this hollow aluminum column, but it has a large cross-section and is therefore more rigid than you might think. As for wear, the aluminum is hard anodized, which forms a very wear-resistant layer. After more than two years of (sometimes intensive) use, there is still no visible wear on the ways. Epoxy concrete will probably have a damping effect. Maybe I'll do that sometime.
@@Michel-Uphoff yeah i guess the depth helps with the rigidity there. i do like your DRO implimentation there.
As for the rigidity of that aluminum column, it is good in X and Y direction, but the design allows more torsion than I would like. I expect that stuffing the column up with epoxy and a filler will improve this in particular.
@@Michel-Uphoff yes it probably would, your headstock is a bit underwhelming for that power motor though as well which probably isn't helping. it's a shame as the table looks nicer than the table on my chinese mill. i'm embarking on my own epoxy granite/sticky mess making adventure to improve various proxxon and chinese machines right now!
Im happy to find hacks for proxxon ff500 and pd 400
Can you share the item list and where to buy them?
Which list do you mean? The items for the DRO?
@@Michel-Uphoff yes
@@bol8lod This are the sensors: www.alfasanayi.com/en/component/content/article/142-products/magnetic-linear-encoders/638-mls-130-series-magnetic-reader-sensor-atek-made-in-turkey.html?Itemid=805
The magnetic tape here: trabiss.nl/shop/mikronel-magneettape-b-series
And the DRO here: trabiss.nl/shop/d60-2v-digitale-uitlezing-2-assen/
Thanks alot
NOT axles - spindles or feed screws! Pull bolt?? Probably the draw bar.
Oops, again..
Maybe you feel more at home on a language channel?
If so, learn Dutch, I will help to correct mistakes.
At almost €3,000 with so many shortcomings this is a non-starter for me. I find Proxxon increasingly annoying. You pay for the fancy design and then you are, like with any random Chinesium mill, in for a host of corrections before it runs as it should. Na. I am happy with my MF70 because it suits the bill for my modelling activities but if I would buy a proper mill a would certainly not consider a Proxxon.
I paid just under $2000 for this machine. Incidentally, I think this machine is a lot better than any cheap Chinese model. But this machine also has a few weak spots, I don't think the perfect machine exists.
@@Michel-Uphoff Deckel FP1 or FP2 ?!!! I'll keep dreaming of getting one eventually 😂
@@HM-Projects
Yes, famous machine! But 10 times more expensive, heavier and bigger than this one.
Use digital potenctiometer. :)