i always use Utica boilers for my steam jobs. Im glad im not the only one, since the "name change" iv had them fail brand new to 3 months old. Not good, this little test is part of the startup i do now as part of the install. Also i cut the molex connector off the the MM LWCO and hardwire it right to the lugs. Seen too many fail on startup or again after a few months to a year. Quality on the controls just arnt what they used to be. And idk how many times ive been to a boiler service for a first time customer or a no heat and that things still jacked to 9psi. I was lucky to learn from the older guys who learned from the original steam men. Its an theory being lost in time, its amazing how many new installs i see that just arnt even close to piped right, either to save money on ftgs or didn't RTFM. Steam on brother!
Thank you so much for sharing your Utica boiler stories! It seems to many installers that the p-trol is "set at the factory" (yes, true...sort of), but they fail to understand that the setting is not for us, but for Honeywell's UL listing. It galls me no end, as it does you, to see that in the field. RTFM... preach it, O Brother!
Had a boiler company refurbish our boiler last year, and 3 times a new Pressuretrol has failed to either turn off at the cut-off pressure, or turn-on at cut-on pressure. Technician 'solved it' last year by reducing the diff setting relative to the main setting, but now in fall of 2024 it's again not working properly, and won't cut-on again. Thank goodness I've read these comments, because I could never imagine 3 new out of the box items failing to perform like that.
Thank you for sharing your story. Please also remember to have your boiler company check to make sure the pigtails are free of sludge or blockage. A blocked pigtail can cause a good pressuretrol to malfunction.
Had another one today, same date code as the one in the video, with the extra added bonus of the spring end being out of battery and the pivot frame was bent. Got it to work. But... I think the quality control manager at Honeywell needs to look for a new job.
@@gordonschweizer5154 on another topic, I had a 30psi hot water boiler relief valve fail out of the box. Looked like it was made of chineezium. That was a first for me. Unbelievable!
What's a better alternative when this one goes bad? Before I wised up and installed a 3 psi gauge next to mine, I adjusted it with a water column in clear vinyl tubing and cut in was 0.5psi and cut out 1.5 psi after adjustment. It has now drifted higher from that setting.
@@gordonschweizer5154 I actually didn't check it this year but it seems so by the way the pressure gauge is riding the cut out and cut in. Just the values have drifted a bit higher. I'll remove the pressuretrol and gauge and blow it out with compressed air.
Usually, the 404A is pretty stable as far as pressure controls go (once you dial them in, of course), so I don't have an answer for you. From the fact that your gauges are showing pressure cycles, I don't think it's the pigtail. Might it be your gauge?
Quality has plummeted on everything Honeywell. We've been seeing Mod IVs last less than 6 months, pressuretrols and vaporstats dead on arrival and valve actuators quitting after a week. It's crazy. The mod motor issue is particularly bad for us. Switching to an ASCO or Siemens just isn't feasible sometimes so we're stuck with the new junk. Very frustrating, especially with so many of the old guru reps having shuttered or retired in the last few years so getting any help from the factory is a real chore.
Quick update on this. The situation has gotten so bad that even OEMs are coming up with retrofit solutions. For $2200, PowerFlame will design and build you complete conversion kits to swap out the Mod IV motors on C series burners for Siemens SQM40 actuators. This includes the SQM40. For the last batch we bought, we paid $1740 + tax per Mod IV from our local San Francisco rep. For pressuretrols, we'll be switching to Johnson Controls. Still figuring out what to do for vaporstats.
@@davidlampe4153 Yes, this is the control that comes with the boiler. The fix (for me), is to slightly bend the metal tap in the back with a slotted head screw driver and that takes care of the problem A Vaporstat is often unnecessary for the system, expensive, and the build quality on those is also not what it used to be.
Sick. When backed-off enough, it still doesn't reset itself? Stamped aluminum indicator tab is the only reference. Looks like lots of room for play. How frustrating.
A 30 psi gauge must be installed per Code. BUT, there is no Code against installing another gauge with a lower pressure reading (say 3 psi) along side. It might take a few 1/4 brass fittings and nipples to do, but some have found it useful to see the low pressures a steam system truly operates at.
Not all steam heating systems need a vaporstat. Just about all steam boilers sold in North America come with a pressuretrol as a minimum. Generally, if you have a single pipe steam system, the PA404A is good enough (when properly tweaked so it works!). But not always. If your boiler is oversized, a vaporstat might be needed as well as down-firing to tame the beast. If you have a two-pipe system, a 16oz vaporstat is just the thing. But not always. If your boiler is undersized, there will not be any build-up of pressure and the expensive control will have nothing to do. But it looks cool!
You’re right. My boiler is a tad oversized. It would be nice if it just sat at 2 oz during the entire heat cycle. I suppose when it fails one day I’ll downsize it a bit. The 2 psi gauge is great though. I could see the pressure bouncing around even though the sight glass didn’t appear to be surging. I skimmed it and the needle was steady after that. The 30 psi gauge is useless. Btw, thanks for all your videos Gordon. Wish you were closer to me in NYC.
Quick question, i read somewhere that you should add a little water to the pigtail to avoid steam from getting to the pressuretrol is that true? Can't that anywhere else.
I used to worry about that & add a cap full of water in the pigtail, but I've since weaned myself away from such worries and it appears the water seal forms on its own fairly quickly. However, I am certainly not going disparage anybody else from adding a bit of water because it can't hurt and it may be the right thing to do.
i always use Utica boilers for my steam jobs. Im glad im not the only one, since the "name change" iv had them fail brand new to 3 months old. Not good, this little test is part of the startup i do now as part of the install. Also i cut the molex connector off the the MM LWCO and hardwire it right to the lugs. Seen too many fail on startup or again after a few months to a year. Quality on the controls just arnt what they used to be. And idk how many times ive been to a boiler service for a first time customer or a no heat and that things still jacked to 9psi. I was lucky to learn from the older guys who learned from the original steam men. Its an theory being lost in time, its amazing how many new installs i see that just arnt even close to piped right, either to save money on ftgs or didn't RTFM. Steam on brother!
Thank you so much for sharing your Utica boiler stories!
It seems to many installers that the p-trol is "set at the factory" (yes, true...sort of), but they fail to understand that the setting is not for us, but for Honeywell's UL listing.
It galls me no end, as it does you, to see that in the field.
RTFM... preach it, O Brother!
Had a boiler company refurbish our boiler last year, and 3 times a new Pressuretrol has failed to either turn off at the cut-off pressure, or turn-on at cut-on pressure. Technician 'solved it' last year by reducing the diff setting relative to the main setting, but now in fall of 2024 it's again not working properly, and won't cut-on again. Thank goodness I've read these comments, because I could never imagine 3 new out of the box items failing to perform like that.
Thank you for sharing your story.
Please also remember to have your boiler company check to make sure the pigtails are free of sludge or blockage.
A blocked pigtail can cause a good pressuretrol to malfunction.
I had a bad one out of the box in 2021. I had to go back to my shop and I found an NOS date coded from 2009. Worked great.
Had another one today, same date code as the one in the video, with the extra added bonus of the spring end being out of battery and the pivot frame was bent.
Got it to work.
But...
I think the quality control manager at Honeywell needs to look for a new job.
@@gordonschweizer5154 on another topic, I had a 30psi hot water boiler relief valve fail out of the box. Looked like it was made of chineezium. That was a first for me. Unbelievable!
Was it one of those really yellow brass ones that seem to be made of mostly zinc with just enough copper to barely hold it together?
@@gordonschweizer5154 yes, fake brass.
@@gordonschweizer5154 yes
What's a better alternative when this one goes bad? Before I wised up and installed a 3 psi gauge next to mine, I adjusted it with a water column in clear vinyl tubing and cut in was 0.5psi and cut out 1.5 psi after adjustment. It has now drifted higher from that setting.
Is your pigtail clear of blockage?
@@gordonschweizer5154 I actually didn't check it this year but it seems so by the way the pressure gauge is riding the cut out and cut in. Just the values have drifted a bit higher. I'll remove the pressuretrol and gauge and blow it out with compressed air.
Usually, the 404A is pretty stable as far as pressure controls go (once you dial them in, of course), so I don't have an answer for you.
From the fact that your gauges are showing pressure cycles, I don't think it's the pigtail.
Might it be your gauge?
Quality has plummeted on everything Honeywell. We've been seeing Mod IVs last less than 6 months, pressuretrols and vaporstats dead on arrival and valve actuators quitting after a week. It's crazy. The mod motor issue is particularly bad for us. Switching to an ASCO or Siemens just isn't feasible sometimes so we're stuck with the new junk. Very frustrating, especially with so many of the old guru reps having shuttered or retired in the last few years so getting any help from the factory is a real chore.
Quick update on this. The situation has gotten so bad that even OEMs are coming up with retrofit solutions. For $2200, PowerFlame will design and build you complete conversion kits to swap out the Mod IV motors on C series burners for Siemens SQM40 actuators. This includes the SQM40. For the last batch we bought, we paid $1740 + tax per Mod IV from our local San Francisco rep. For pressuretrols, we'll be switching to Johnson Controls. Still figuring out what to do for vaporstats.
@@tani357 Wow, I have no words.
What model of Johnson controls are you using for the PA404A p'trol?
Did the boiler come with the Residio control?
What’s the fix for this problem?
Will you offer a better replacement control such as a vaporstat ?
@@davidlampe4153 Yes, this is the control that comes with the boiler.
The fix (for me), is to slightly bend the metal tap in the back with a slotted head screw driver and that takes care of the problem
A Vaporstat is often unnecessary for the system, expensive, and the build quality on those is also not what it used to be.
Sick. When backed-off enough, it still doesn't reset itself? Stamped aluminum indicator tab is the only reference. Looks like lots of room for play. How frustrating.
It's no problem.
I show how to correct it in later videos.
Stay tuned & hit that like button!
@@gordonschweizer5154 I recall your previous vid micro-tweaking the controller. "At your own risk". Can't wait!
I’ve got the same setup on my Utica boiler. Is there a replacement pressure gauge that you would recommend that is more useful?
A 30 psi gauge must be installed per Code.
BUT, there is no Code against installing another gauge with a lower pressure reading (say 3 psi) along side.
It might take a few 1/4 brass fittings and nipples to do, but some have found it useful to see the low pressures a steam system truly operates at.
Why not install a vaporstat? I have a vaporstat and a 2 psi gauge set at 7 oz to 21 oz.
Not all steam heating systems need a vaporstat.
Just about all steam boilers sold in North America come with a pressuretrol as a minimum.
Generally, if you have a single pipe steam system, the PA404A is good enough (when properly tweaked so it works!).
But not always.
If your boiler is oversized, a vaporstat might be needed as well as down-firing to tame the beast.
If you have a two-pipe system, a 16oz vaporstat is just the thing.
But not always.
If your boiler is undersized, there will not be any build-up of pressure and the expensive control will have nothing to do.
But it looks cool!
You’re right. My boiler is a tad oversized. It would be nice if it just sat at 2 oz during the entire heat cycle. I suppose when it fails one day I’ll downsize it a bit. The 2 psi gauge is great though. I could see the pressure bouncing around even though the sight glass didn’t appear to be surging. I skimmed it and the needle was steady after that. The 30 psi gauge is useless. Btw, thanks for all your videos Gordon. Wish you were closer to me in NYC.
Quick question, i read somewhere that you should add a little water to the pigtail to avoid steam from getting to the pressuretrol is that true? Can't that anywhere else.
I used to worry about that & add a cap full of water in the pigtail, but I've since weaned myself away from such worries and it appears the water seal forms on its own fairly quickly.
However, I am certainly not going disparage anybody else from adding a bit of water because it can't hurt and it may be the right thing to do.
Sadly Honeywell have gone down the cheap route with their controls, same with their uk products
I don't get why they spun-off "Resideo" from Honeywell, trashing a hundred+ year old house-hold name.
Somebody got paid to do that.
The most inaccurate control on the market.
It is inaccurate, sadly.
But that is the fault of the final adjuster at the factory.
The control is fairly precise and tweakable to make it accurate.
It is never accurate p404 is pos