Nice video, The Hartford Loop also functions as point where the steam pressure from boiler is "equalized". The steam pressure produced inside the boiler pushs out through the supply header and out through the return. The two forces meet at the Hartford loop via the equalizer line and hold the pressure inside the boiler. A boiler without the Hartford loop will have water in the boiler pushed out the returns and eventually out of the radiator steam vents.
That valve allows a "no return" flush of the system. The boiler can be kept making steam, while the condensate, which may contain contaminates, is drained away.
Thank you for an excellent video explaining the need for a Hartford Loop. I understand that the “loop”, as you mentioned, acts similar to a plumbing trap. The question I have is why doesn’t this “trap” utilize a vent or an Air Admittance Valve (AAV) similar to a plumbing drain to prevent siphoning of the trap if a break in the condensate line occurs? I would think the velocity of the water at the “break” may create a vacuum & siphon the water in the trap.
I thank you for your support! I think, since this is really an up-side down trap, the air (or steam) in the top of the equalizer line breaks the siphon. Even if I was to put a wet-vac on the wet return drain, it could not, will not, draw the water from the boiler (only air or steam will issue forth) for this very reason.
Whoever installed my boiler (previous homeowner) put the Hartford Loop a few inches too high so I have to keep my water level a bit higher than desireable for steamchest purposes and if the wet return springs a leak it won't immediately even trigger the LWCO. If I don't then the pressure in the boiler will hinder condensate from returning to the boiler. Also, I don't have that shutoff valve in the Hartford Loop either, which I presume is to help with power flushing the returns?
The shut off valve pictured is not necessary for the safe operation of a boiler and is an add-on during installation. And you are correct, it is for flushing the wet return while the boiler is operating. Some would argue that it shouldn't be added at all because someone might come along later and mess with it. What you may have is a Gifford Loop as apposed to a Hartford Loop. The Gifford Loop, invented by a person named (wait for it...) Gifford, is somewhat controversial in the steam heating world. A for myself, I don't really have a good reason to ever install a Gifford Loop and you may decide to have yours taken out and a proper Hartford Loop installed. Your call.
“What do they call a plumber in a suit and tie? A defendant” LOL now THAT’s a good one (unless you’re the dapper plumber). Great explanation of the Hartford loop, I think of that term every time I’m stuck in traffic on I-84 in CT on my way up to Boston.
Hi, just subscribed to your channel and hope to learn a lot more than I already know. I have owned several homes with boilers. What state are you in? I am a home inspector and am writing a 101 basic lesson on boilers for Realtors and beginning home inspectors. What would you say is the average cost of a new boiler for a 3,000 sq ft home?
Thanks! We are in Maryland. As for cost of a new boiler, it would be best to ask local contractors directly, as costs can very depending on the region.
Excellent video. I'm replacing my steam boiler and this was a great help as to what I need. I do have a question. I'm installing the same Force unit you show in the video and am trying to figure out how to wire an automatic water fill unit to the system. Any advice?
Thank you! I am so glad this was helpful. I trust you have had a chance to look at my other videos using the Force boiler? Which automatic feeder to you plan to use?
I enjoy your videos. I can see how a leak somewhere along the hartford loop will prevent the boiler from draining completely. But what good is the hartford loop if there's a leak on the return where it ties into the boiler? Say, on the union just under the sight glass. If that union springs a leak, it seems the boiler will lose water but the hartford loop will stay full in this case?! Thank you for sharing your work Gordon.
You are welcome! To your questions: You're right, a leak on the return directly to the boiler (or, for that matter, a leak on the boiler itself), is not going to be countered by the Hartford Loop. The Loop will keep the water in the return line full in that case, however, just as you say. Better than nothing, and it just might give a dodgy LWCO a bit more time to react properly.
@@gordonschweizer5154 thanks for the reply,i guess it comes down to homeowners not wanting to pay ,but heating up virtually unused basements seems crazy
@@dannywilkins887 I'm not sure exactly what the issue is! I think in a lot of cases, it may be more a resistance to change than a pure dollars and cents issue. I will insulate the pipes if the customer insists I do it (and pays me), but always I point out that there are folks who will do that job faster, cheaper, and better than I can. It is something I often advise the customer to do themselves. Any job worth doing is worth doing badly. I do that so it should be abundantly clear to my customer that I am recommending pipe insulation purely for THEIR benefit and not for my profit. I tell my customers that if they insulate their steam main pipes, two things will happen: (1) Their basement will be cooler. (2) They will wish that they had done it sooner.
@@elgordo271 Great video. I'm a new homeowner and came across uninsulated steam main. I want to insulate it, but one half of the main is the unfinished area which I'm fine with insulating. The challenge is the other half of the main goes through a finished area. When insulating, should the whole main be done at the same time? I think it would create an imbalance if I did one half and not the other half.
Great overview of Hartford Loop. Why is there a valve on the loop that high? I have a Tee with a nipple and valve and cap under the loop to periodically dump the goop.
I see what your saying. That actually sounds like a good idea for a couple reasons. -Isolating the water chest for skim or leak in block, -and isolating your wet return if it leaking so you don’t lose your block. BUT I WOULD TAG THOSE VALVES AS ‘SERVICE ONLY’ AND REMOVE THOSE HANDLES SO THAT SOME CHILD DOES NOT PLAY WITH THEM. .....it happens.
@@bauhnguefyische667 Could Be although if such a thing was desired I would put the valve on the nipple leaving the side tapping to prevent oils from getting trapped in the equalizer and Hartford Loop during a skim process. As far as isolating the wet return during a leak we have a Hartford Loop for that purpose. Unless the leaky pipe sends you heads up right before it burst I do not see how its useful for that. I agree, on my 1/4 turn valves I always add a nipple and cap. This acts as deterrent. If someone where to open a 1/4 valve near the boiler piping while the burners are boiling water; someone could get scalded from the hot water or steam. As oppose to gate valves where you get time to react as the steam and water sip out slowly as you turn the valve. IMO
@Mugen Mundo Its not clear in the video above, but the return line to the Loop is sloping back toward the wet return drain by design. That should allow any build up to be flushed out.
More or less correct, yes. One scenario could go like this: The boiler would run dry and be super hot. Folks would turn on the water supply and add water to the boiler then. The water would boil almost immediately, shooting the pressure inside the boiler sky high. Combined with the cast iron being soft from being red hot, it would rupture.
I saw you mentioned in another video about a Gifford loop. I did some research and that is supposed to be a improvement on the Hartford loop. Any idea why boiler manufacturers don’t mention this in there instructions if it’s better. Just wondering what are your thoughts on this. I was thinking about piping my the next steam boiler this way.
In the USA, most States follow the CSD-1 Boiler Code. That code requires, among other things, a secondary LWCO with manual reset on all steam boilers fired at or above 400,000 BTU/Hr. That leaves out, not always to the good, most residential sized steam boilers such as this one.
My system has a water hammer at the beginning of the steam cycle, plumber used chemicals and the water hammer stopped until now, looks as if the oil returned to the sight glass, would skimming be my problem
I would read and try to understand the cleaning procedures that the manufacturer of your particular boiler has in their instructions. As I understand it, very few manufacturers recommend the use of chemicals. Too many things can go wrong. Persistence and boring repetition eventually win a clean, silent boiler.
I've had great success with the cycle gard. On new service accounts, when I see the gauge glass full of sludge, I automatically flush the boiler out, clean the glass, new glass washers and remove/clean the cycle gard probe. Also clean the strainer on the vxt feeder.
Well presented and explained. Get this wrong and you wear the suit and tie so to speak. Got a question for you as a fellow tradesman...I’m from Wilmington, De. Steam is usually a farm house or large city single home. I am trying to find out info on the Bromell Vapor System. I know it’s typical .5-.8psi cut out. I have a system with Bromell traps on the returns and of course those classic looking supply valves a hundred years old labeled ‘VAPOR’. Most operate well, I’m familiar with those traps getting clogged, only one does not heat consistently. Mostly just trying to find diagrams, catalogs or pictures of install.
Thank you very much for your comments. Is the video I made of the Broomall valve of any help to you? Let me know what you think. I think we should talk. I would look forward to that.
Gordon Schweizer I would love to talk with an experienced Steam Head. I am going to send you a link to my family business. It’s a forgotten art and this generation needs to pass on what we know. It’s about teaching....not getting schooled on a job. I’ve been watching your channel for a couple years and your pretty much what is out there except a few random vids. Teachers teach, the rest rely on ignorance. Thank you! I’ll get contact info to you in next few days, I would enjoy talking with you. I maybe able to visit your shop as well if you would like. Steam needs good mentors like you to pass along what we have learned and the history (that’s my favorite part). I hope we can talk soon, Gordon!
Gordon Schweizer This is my professional tag. I’ll be putting some vids up soon. Can’t wait to talk with you as a tradesman. I’m licensed in Maryland and De as HVAC Master Class. Thank you for sharing what you know, the next generation depends on our shared knowledge.
Gordon Schweizer Well received. I’m mostly known for Hydronics and Geothermal, but I have been around steam, mostly churches since I was a kid. Family business, you start young. You know. It’s simple, you’ll spend your whole life learning that. Then some simpleton will ‘fix’ it and a hundred years of smart will get ignored. You can’t fix that, but you can show them at least. My Family Business is Hentkowski Inc, we are in Wilmington, De. We have a web site but it does not cover hot water/steam. I want to change that and have been the impetus on boiler work for almost 20years. Radiators and flat panels are just more comfortable and efficient for heat.
The Hartford Loop gives you an extra 5 to 10 minutes before the boiler runs dry and burns down? And if a leak in the basement is not detected for those 5-10 minutes, what difference did the Hartford Loop make? Confused as to what the advantage is?
5 minutes is better than zero minutes, eh? That 5 minutes might be enough to allow a sleeping low water cut off to wake up and do its duty. It's also Code.
Google just fed me a video where a non boiler guy (a homeowner) closed the wet return back to the boiler, and simulated both a return leak and LWCO failure. The sight glass fell preciptiously and as you'd expect with no water being fed (and it firing) his sight glass fell very low before he ended his expirement. (5-7 minutes) It was clear we were heading to a dry fire enviroment. He concluded the Hartford loop was worthless. My first impresiion, after "I need to ask Gordon", was, is this an argument for a supplemental LWCO and/or alarming things? Did his experiment have any merit?
The video you are referring to was made by a good fellow that I've had the pleasure of meeting in real life. He and I had a friendly discussion then on the merits of the Hartford Loop. He makes the point that with the small water content boilers nowadays, the Hartford Loop only provides minutes of protection before a dryfire. It is difficult to honestly dispute that he may have a point. The only thing I can add is to say that the Hartford Loop may give a "sluggish" LWCO a fighting chance to do it's job and shut down the boiler before it's too late. The idea for a back-up LWCO is a good one but boils down (HA!) to at what cost vs actual danger of a dryfire. I had the thought of a temperature sensor, much like the ones used for roll-outs and blocked flues, to be put on the block itself somewhere and that might provide a cheap back-up for a failing LWCO with little chance of a nuisance shut-down. Note, on larger steam boilers (greater than 400,000BTU/hr) manual reset LWCOs are required, as you may know - as well as a Hartford Loop
@@gordonschweizer5154 I agree. You seem to be a particular guy, with several best practices that are virtual 'signature' practices. I found his video provoking, and I told him as much---that I found it helpful and informative. I came to a different conclusion; that the hartford loop could be made a bit more effective; and that several minutes he found as worthless could be useful. Whether it's suplemental safeties or an alarm, My instinct was the HL was still needed. I appreciated his experiment. But I came to a different conclusion, as wht it means and what we should do about it.
@@raindogs451 I try not to lecture too much to folks that already seem to know much about steam boilers...that is to say it is often difficult to gauge to whom and at what level I am commenting to and I don't want to be insulting. But others may read these comments and glean a factoid or two.
Thanks for the great videos.. My brother and I both just installed a used steam Dunkirk boiler for a 1 pipe system. We used a combination of your videos, manufacture instructions and another existing boiler in the house to guide our self's to installing it. It was a peace of cake. In the process we found out that the existing boiler equalizer pipe needs to be modified as it was installed tooo low. To think just 10 months ago i was afraid of removing just a radiator before they sanded our floors. Today i'm exploring how to take apart a 8 column radiator and reduce it to 4 for a bathroom. this way i don't have to buy a shorter one, Could you please make a video on that? ...and oh yeah! we also pop out the male end of a radiator values by cutting the brass and replacing it with a new one. (I hope you get what i mean, i don't know the name of that part) Again Thank you for the help. Your wisdom is very much appreciated and keep posting. JM - Chicago
Thank you for your kind words. They are much appreciated. In regards to taking apart a radiator and shortening it, is the radiator in question a type with outside tie rods? If it doesn't have those tie rods, I would not attempt to take it apart.
No really. If the that valve is shut, it's as if the wet return is clogged, and the water will back up in the drips. But before that happens, the boiler will run low on water. So as long as the LWCO is working, no worries.
Your point is well taken, you are not wrong. Often, I remove the handle and zip-tie it somewhere nearby. That generally reduces unintentional shut offs. I believe that the usefulness of that valve in maintaining clean water in steam systems outweighs the slight risk that the valve would be shut off by ignorance or whatever.
Thankyou for responding. Im licensed oil burner tech. Ive work on heating systems for 40 years in Massachusetts. Never saw shut off there. Thats what I would do remove Handel.
It's literally in the near boiler piping schematics for every steam boiler I've ever installed. Reading piping schematics as per manufacturer is key to maintaining warranties.
No, that is my glitchy brain searching for the right words... And failing. These are low production valve videos done in one or two takes at the end of a long day. I am glad that they may provide some helpful info. My best to you, sir!
At this point, it really doesn't matter what I or you may think about the current usefulness of the Hartford Loop. It's still Code and has been for over a century. So, I'm still gonna put them in. At the least, it can help keep steam out of the wet returns with the lower water levels nowadays.
@@petergriffin1546 The VXT locks out after two consecutive attempts to satisfy a continuous call for water from the low water cut off. Delay times and gallons per feed are set by the user.
I really don’t understand the necessity of the Hartford Loop. If a wet return is leaking, as the boiler continues to steam the condensate return will run out on the floor and the boiler will soon be empty. So the loop buys you a few hours or possibly a day or two and you are still dry firing. In other words, if your feed water and or low water cutoff fail you still have big problems with a slight delay.
You don't really need to wear a seat-belt. Until it's needed. The Hartford Loop is Code and every steam boiler manufacturer calls for it to be installed in their installation instructions. But no, you're right. It's not needed. Until it is. FAFO
Nice video, The Hartford Loop also functions as point where the steam pressure from boiler is "equalized". The steam pressure produced inside the boiler pushs out through the supply header and out through the return. The two forces meet at the Hartford loop via the equalizer line and hold the pressure inside the boiler. A boiler without the Hartford loop will have water in the boiler pushed out the returns and eventually out of the radiator steam vents.
Excellent video and demo. I was struggling to understand importance and need of the hartford loop
I like how it was explained slow and direct. Very nice video.
I love your careful explanation of the various components.
Thanks!
So easy the way you demonstrated in this video,after hitting my head many times now I can say no more headache,thanks a lot.
You're welcome!
Very informative! Thank you!
@@SurferBum1002 You are most welcome!
Thank you for that. Very well explained video.
You are welcome!
Hi Gordon
Re-watching this video and wondering what is the purpose of the gate valve on the Hartford loop?
That valve allows a "no return" flush of the system.
The boiler can be kept making steam, while the condensate, which may contain contaminates, is drained away.
@gordonschweizer5154 thanks for the quick response
Great video! Only problem I have, plumbers need to stick to waste and potable water, HVAC should handle the heating part😆
From my perspective, HVAC folks seem to only know about heat pumps & furnaces and tend to run away from boilers.
@@gordonschweizer5154every hvac company in my area NY including my company does boilers. And most do steam boilers
One of the best boiler channels on UA-cam....you are awesome Gordon
You are very welcome!
Thanks for your support.
Thank you for an excellent video explaining the need for a Hartford Loop. I understand that the “loop”, as you mentioned, acts similar to a plumbing trap. The question I have is why doesn’t this “trap” utilize a vent or an Air Admittance Valve (AAV) similar to a plumbing drain to prevent siphoning of the trap if a break in the condensate line occurs? I would think the velocity of the water at the “break” may create a vacuum & siphon the water in the trap.
I thank you for your support!
I think, since this is really an up-side down trap, the air (or steam) in the top of the equalizer line breaks the siphon. Even if I was to put a wet-vac on the wet return drain, it could not, will not, draw the water from the boiler (only air or steam will issue forth) for this very reason.
@@elgordo271 When I look at Hardfort loop, all I see is the Communicating vessels like you said a upside down trap.
Well done, sir!!
That’s the cleanest boiler water I’ve ever seen.
Awesome video brother 👍🏽
Thanks 👍
Whoever installed my boiler (previous homeowner) put the Hartford Loop a few inches too high so I have to keep my water level a bit higher than desireable for steamchest purposes and if the wet return springs a leak it won't immediately even trigger the LWCO. If I don't then the pressure in the boiler will hinder condensate from returning to the boiler. Also, I don't have that shutoff valve in the Hartford Loop either, which I presume is to help with power flushing the returns?
The shut off valve pictured is not necessary for the safe operation of a boiler and is an add-on during installation.
And you are correct, it is for flushing the wet return while the boiler is operating.
Some would argue that it shouldn't be added at all because someone might come along later and mess with it.
What you may have is a Gifford Loop as apposed to a Hartford Loop.
The Gifford Loop, invented by a person named (wait for it...) Gifford, is somewhat controversial in the steam heating world.
A for myself, I don't really have a good reason to ever install a Gifford Loop and you may decide to have yours taken out and a proper Hartford Loop installed. Your call.
“What do they call a plumber in a suit and tie? A defendant” LOL now THAT’s a good one (unless you’re the dapper plumber). Great explanation of the Hartford loop, I think of that term every time I’m stuck in traffic on I-84 in CT on my way up to Boston.
Hi, just subscribed to your channel and hope to learn a lot more than I already know. I have owned several homes with boilers. What state are you in? I am a home inspector and am writing a 101 basic lesson on boilers for Realtors and beginning home inspectors. What would you say is the average cost of a new boiler for a 3,000 sq ft home?
Thanks!
We are in Maryland.
As for cost of a new boiler, it would be best to ask local contractors directly, as costs can very depending on the region.
Excellent video. I'm replacing my steam boiler and this was a great help as to what I need. I do have a question. I'm installing the same Force unit you show in the video and am trying to figure out how to wire an automatic water fill unit to the system. Any advice?
Thank you! I am so glad this was helpful.
I trust you have had a chance to look at my other videos using the Force boiler?
Which automatic feeder to you plan to use?
I enjoy your videos. I can see how a leak somewhere along the hartford loop will prevent the boiler from draining completely. But what good is the hartford loop if there's a leak on the return where it ties into the boiler? Say, on the union just under the sight glass. If that union springs a leak, it seems the boiler will lose water but the hartford loop will stay full in this case?!
Thank you for sharing your work Gordon.
You are welcome!
To your questions: You're right, a leak on the return directly to the boiler (or, for that matter, a leak on the boiler itself), is not going to be countered by the Hartford Loop. The Loop will keep the water in the return line full in that case, however, just as you say.
Better than nothing, and it just might give a dodgy LWCO a bit more time to react properly.
Does the pipe work on these residential installs ever get insulated?
Not as much as they should!
@@gordonschweizer5154 thanks for the reply,i guess it comes down to homeowners not wanting to pay ,but heating up virtually unused basements seems crazy
@@dannywilkins887 I'm not sure exactly what the issue is! I think in a lot of cases, it may be more a resistance to change than a pure dollars and cents issue. I will insulate the pipes if the customer insists I do it (and pays me), but always I point out that there are folks who will do that job faster, cheaper, and better than I can. It is something I often advise the customer to do themselves. Any job worth doing is worth doing badly. I do that so it should be abundantly clear to my customer that I am recommending pipe insulation purely for THEIR benefit and not for my profit.
I tell my customers that if they insulate their steam main pipes, two things will happen: (1) Their basement will be cooler. (2) They will wish that they had done it sooner.
@@elgordo271 lol good reply-keep up the videos really enjoy seeing different ways of doing things across the pond.
@@elgordo271 Great video. I'm a new homeowner and came across uninsulated steam main. I want to insulate it, but one half of the main is the unfinished area which I'm fine with insulating. The challenge is the other half of the main goes through a finished area. When insulating, should the whole main be done at the same time? I think it would create an imbalance if I did one half and not the other half.
can you show us how . conector baseboard heater to basement from steam boiler.. thank you
Sorry, we don't do that very often in our area.
We've only done it twice in almost 18 years.
Great stuff…. The defendant ayyyyyyyy 😂
Great overview of Hartford Loop. Why is there a valve on the loop that high? I have a Tee with a nipple and valve and cap under the loop to periodically dump the goop.
I see what your saying. That actually sounds like a good idea for a couple reasons.
-Isolating the water chest for skim or leak in block,
-and isolating your wet return if it leaking so you don’t lose your block.
BUT I WOULD TAG THOSE VALVES AS ‘SERVICE ONLY’ AND REMOVE THOSE HANDLES SO THAT SOME CHILD DOES NOT PLAY WITH THEM.
.....it happens.
@@bauhnguefyische667 Could Be although if such a thing was desired I would put the valve on the nipple leaving the side tapping to prevent oils from getting trapped in the equalizer and Hartford Loop during a skim process. As far as isolating the wet return during a leak we have a Hartford Loop for that purpose. Unless the leaky pipe sends you heads up right before it burst I do not see how its useful for that.
I agree, on my 1/4 turn valves I always add a nipple and cap. This acts as deterrent. If someone where to open a 1/4 valve near the boiler piping while the burners are boiling water; someone could get scalded from the hot water or steam. As oppose to gate valves where you get time to react as the steam and water sip out slowly as you turn the valve. IMO
Mugen Mundo
Agreed.
@@bauhnguefyische667 Thou speakest wisdom, sir.
@Mugen Mundo Its not clear in the video above, but the return line to the Loop is sloping back toward the wet return drain by design. That should allow any build up to be flushed out.
Thx Gordon.
wasn't it also back in the days before the Hartford loop the boiler would run dry and when people put water to them they would explode ?
More or less correct, yes.
One scenario could go like this:
The boiler would run dry and be super hot.
Folks would turn on the water supply and add water to the boiler then.
The water would boil almost immediately, shooting the pressure inside the boiler sky high.
Combined with the cast iron being soft from being red hot, it would rupture.
I saw you mentioned in another video about a Gifford loop. I did some research and that is supposed to be a improvement on the Hartford loop. Any idea why boiler manufacturers don’t mention this in there instructions if it’s better. Just wondering what are your thoughts on this. I was thinking about piping my the next steam boiler this way.
The "Gifford Loop" is, let's just say, controversial.
It seems to work, sort of, as the poor man's false water line.
I have two boilers one 400hp and one 500hp. And is mandatory to have a secondary low water cutoff.
Wy not on this boilers?
In the USA, most States follow the CSD-1 Boiler Code. That code requires, among other things, a secondary LWCO with manual reset on all steam boilers fired at or above 400,000 BTU/Hr. That leaves out, not always to the good, most residential sized steam boilers such as this one.
This Chanel is much more.
I’m learning so much with the discussion…
My system has a water hammer at the beginning of the steam cycle, plumber used chemicals and the water hammer stopped until now, looks as if the oil returned to the sight glass, would skimming be my problem
I would read and try to understand the cleaning procedures that the manufacturer of your particular boiler has in their instructions.
As I understand it, very few manufacturers recommend the use of chemicals. Too many things can go wrong. Persistence and boring repetition eventually win a clean, silent boiler.
I see you keeping the cycle guard on there. I’m going to give it a try too since it came already installed and everything!
We mostly leave it in because of warranty issues. If we swap it out we will most likely fall into a denial trap with the manufacturer.
I've had great success with the cycle gard.
On new service accounts, when I see the gauge glass full of sludge, I automatically flush the boiler out, clean the glass, new glass washers and remove/clean the cycle gard probe. Also clean the strainer on the vxt feeder.
Good stuff !
Thanks!
My boiler drains all the way down below the sight glass. Is that an indication that the Hartford loop may be blocked with debris?
It sounds like you might need a visit from an experienced boiler tech
Well presented and explained. Get this wrong and you wear the suit and tie so to speak.
Got a question for you as a fellow tradesman...I’m from Wilmington, De. Steam is usually a farm house or large city single home.
I am trying to find out info on the Bromell Vapor System. I know it’s typical .5-.8psi cut out. I have a system with Bromell traps on the returns and of course those classic looking supply valves a hundred years old labeled ‘VAPOR’. Most operate well, I’m familiar with those traps getting clogged, only one does not heat consistently.
Mostly just trying to find diagrams, catalogs or pictures of install.
Thank you very much for your comments. Is the video I made of the Broomall valve of any help to you? Let me know what you think.
I think we should talk. I would look forward to that.
Gordon Schweizer
I would love to talk with an experienced Steam Head. I am going to send you a link to my family business. It’s a forgotten art and this generation needs to pass on what we know. It’s about teaching....not getting schooled on a job. I’ve been watching your channel for a couple years and your pretty much what is out there except a few random vids.
Teachers teach, the rest rely on ignorance.
Thank you!
I’ll get contact info to you in next few days, I would enjoy talking with you. I maybe able to visit your shop as well if you would like.
Steam needs good mentors like you to pass along what we have learned and the history (that’s my favorite part). I hope we can talk soon, Gordon!
Gordon Schweizer
This is my professional tag. I’ll be putting some vids up soon. Can’t wait to talk with you as a tradesman. I’m licensed in Maryland and De as HVAC Master Class.
Thank you for sharing what you know, the next generation depends on our shared knowledge.
@@wetheadedtinknocker6887 My professional tag is All Steamed Up, Inc. in Towson, Md.
Gordon Schweizer
Well received.
I’m mostly known for Hydronics and Geothermal, but I have been around steam, mostly churches since I was a kid. Family business, you start young. You know. It’s simple, you’ll spend your whole life learning that.
Then some simpleton will ‘fix’ it and a hundred years of smart will get ignored.
You can’t fix that, but you can show them at least.
My Family Business is
Hentkowski Inc, we are in Wilmington, De. We have a web site but it does not cover hot water/steam.
I want to change that and have been the impetus on boiler work for almost 20years.
Radiators and flat panels are just more comfortable and efficient for heat.
The Hartford Loop gives you an extra 5 to 10 minutes before the boiler runs dry and burns down? And if a leak in the basement is not detected for those 5-10 minutes, what difference did the Hartford Loop make? Confused as to what the advantage is?
5 minutes is better than zero minutes, eh?
That 5 minutes might be enough to allow a sleeping low water cut off to wake up and do its duty.
It's also Code.
Google just fed me a video where a non boiler guy (a homeowner) closed the wet return back to the boiler, and simulated both a return leak and LWCO failure. The sight glass fell preciptiously and as you'd expect with no water being fed (and it firing) his sight glass fell very low before he ended his expirement. (5-7 minutes) It was clear we were heading to a dry fire enviroment. He concluded the Hartford loop was worthless. My first impresiion, after "I need to ask Gordon", was, is this an argument for a supplemental LWCO and/or alarming things? Did his experiment have any merit?
The video you are referring to was made by a good fellow that I've had the pleasure of meeting in real life. He and I had a friendly discussion then on the merits of the Hartford Loop.
He makes the point that with the small water content boilers nowadays, the Hartford Loop only provides minutes of protection before a dryfire.
It is difficult to honestly dispute that he may have a point.
The only thing I can add is to say that the Hartford Loop may give a "sluggish" LWCO a fighting chance to do it's job and shut down the boiler before it's too late.
The idea for a back-up LWCO is a good one but boils down (HA!) to at what cost vs actual danger of a dryfire.
I had the thought of a temperature sensor, much like the ones used for roll-outs and blocked flues, to be put on the block itself somewhere and that might provide a cheap back-up for a failing LWCO with little chance of a nuisance shut-down.
Note, on larger steam boilers (greater than 400,000BTU/hr) manual reset LWCOs are required, as you may know - as well as a Hartford Loop
@@gordonschweizer5154 I agree. You seem to be a particular guy, with several best practices that are virtual 'signature' practices. I found his video provoking, and I told him as much---that I found it helpful and informative. I came to a different conclusion; that the hartford loop could be made a bit more effective; and that several minutes he found as worthless could be useful. Whether it's suplemental safeties or an alarm, My instinct was the HL was still needed. I appreciated his experiment. But I came to a different conclusion, as wht it means and what we should do about it.
@@gordonschweizer5154 and, no, I did not know.
@@raindogs451 I try not to lecture too much to folks that already seem to know much about steam boilers...that is to say it is often difficult to gauge to whom and at what level I am commenting to and I don't want to be insulting.
But others may read these comments and glean a factoid or two.
what if the boiler itself leaks?
Then you will most likely need a new boiler.
Thanks for the great videos.. My brother and I both just installed a used steam Dunkirk boiler for a 1 pipe system. We used a combination of your videos, manufacture instructions and another existing boiler in the house to guide our self's to installing it. It was a peace of cake. In the process we found out that the existing boiler equalizer pipe needs to be modified as it was installed tooo low. To think just 10 months ago i was afraid of removing just a radiator before they sanded our floors. Today i'm exploring how to take apart a 8 column radiator and reduce it to 4 for a bathroom. this way i don't have to buy a shorter one, Could you please make a video on that? ...and oh yeah! we also pop out the male end of a radiator values by cutting the brass and replacing it with a new one. (I hope you get what i mean, i don't know the name of that part) Again Thank you for the help. Your wisdom is very much appreciated and keep posting. JM - Chicago
Thank you for your kind words. They are much appreciated. In regards to taking apart a radiator and shortening it, is the radiator in question a type with outside tie rods? If it doesn't have those tie rods, I would not attempt to take it apart.
That valve scares me !
That could be shut by mistake and it’s as if no Hartford Loop.
No really. If the that valve is shut, it's as if the wet return is clogged, and the water will back up in the drips.
But before that happens, the boiler will run low on water.
So as long as the LWCO is working, no worries.
Why do you have a shut on loop. You wouldn't want that to be closed ever.
Your point is well taken, you are not wrong.
Often, I remove the handle and zip-tie it somewhere nearby.
That generally reduces unintentional shut offs.
I believe that the usefulness of that valve in maintaining clean water in steam systems outweighs the slight risk that the valve would be shut off by ignorance or whatever.
Thankyou for responding. Im licensed oil burner tech. Ive work on heating systems for 40 years in Massachusetts. Never saw shut off there. Thats what I would do remove Handel.
It's literally in the near boiler piping schematics for every steam boiler I've ever installed. Reading piping schematics as per manufacturer is key to maintaining warranties.
Sounded like you were able to keep a straight face as you explained the loop buys you ...a little bit of time 😅
No, that is my glitchy brain searching for the right words... And failing. These are low production valve videos done in one or two takes at the end of a long day. I am glad that they may provide some helpful info. My best to you, sir!
👍 👌 👍
Hartford loop is useless unless you have an auto feed on the boiler with a capacity thats greater than the steaming rate of the boiler.
At this point, it really doesn't matter what I or you may think about the current usefulness of the Hartford Loop. It's still Code and has been for over a century. So, I'm still gonna put them in.
At the least, it can help keep steam out of the wet returns with the lower water levels nowadays.
doesnt the vxt feeder shutoff lockout after so many gallons?
@@petergriffin1546 The VXT locks out after two consecutive attempts to satisfy a continuous call for water from the low water cut off.
Delay times and gallons per feed are set by the user.
Words of wisdom don’t be the defendant
Key points
Hartford loop derives from Hartford insurance! Thats the origins
Also don’t be a defendant , cover your ass since ya suck
I... suck?
@@gordonschweizer5154 lol i was commenting for future apprentice who will use your videos
You don’t suck, great video 👍
I really don’t understand the necessity of the Hartford Loop. If a wet return is leaking, as the boiler continues to steam the condensate return will run out on the floor and the boiler will soon be empty. So the loop buys you a few hours or possibly a day or two and you are still dry firing. In other words, if your feed water and or low water cutoff fail you still have big problems with a slight delay.
You don't really need to wear a seat-belt.
Until it's needed.
The Hartford Loop is Code and every steam boiler manufacturer calls for it to be installed in their installation instructions.
But no, you're right.
It's not needed.
Until it is.
FAFO