The Titan problem is deeper than you think | Destiny 2 Design Analysis
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- Опубліковано 22 сер 2024
- #destiny2 #thefinalshape
During the past few weeks, there have been growing concerns about the state of the Titan class in Destiny 2. While Hunters are absolutely wrecking havoc across the game, and Warlocks are enjoying some great new builds, Titans don't have much going for them. Their meta builds from the past year have been nerfed, and their Prismatic subclass failed to meet player expectations. Is this just a balance issue, or is there something much deeper that could be the source of the problems? In this video, we'll be taking a closer look into the design of Titan, and everything that could be causing trouble for the class.
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Imagine if unbreakable returned grenade energy based on the amount of damage blocked. An example of a small change that would build into the titan fantasy
This change would make it absolutely obnoxious in PvP.
@@commentingchannel9776Bungie is capable of tuning things in PVP and PVE separately.
Its crazy it doesnt have a devour proc built in, gaining devour on damage blocked or combatant kills would help a lot with cycling the ability without overtuning it in the base kit
@susaigithefallenone8323 I can't count how many times a pvp nerf massively affected something in pve and vice versa. They've definitely gotten better at this of late but its historically been a pain point
I think unbreakable should just convert enemy projectiles into ammo for the team (probably with a short cooldown). Damage from majors produces a Special brick, damage from Bosses produces a heavy brick. Damage from minors will have a stacking chance to produce an orb. This would give Titan some actually unique support that other classes can't do by default.
Titans originally represented, back in 2013-2014 during development and teasers were supposed to be the "paladin" "tank" "disabler" class with team-wide buffs and the ability to diminish pressure on their teammates with buffs and drawing aggro (not through taunts for some reason, but because they were just physically closer). But then there was a subclass built around melee: striker. this then became the de-facto identity of titan in D2, because the identity of titan was changed from "the wall against which the darkness breaks", which was vague enough to give a bit of flexibility in the design space, to "enhances their bodies with light", which has literally one way to actually implement in game, which just so happens to be extremely strong in crucible, which has a close range meta since the beginning of time basically, so it's never actually allowed to be interesting or truly strong through tankiness. This gets on my nerves because the best melee build at high levels has been arc hunter since beyond light, but it took 2 whole buttons to pull off (dodge and melee) so it was considered more skillful for some reason, despite the fact that it fundamentally does the same thing. This is compounded more by the fact that there is a SINGLE taunt mechanic in the entire game, and it's given to hunters of all classes, so bungie has the capability of making aggro manipulation into a mechanic, but just refuse to give it to the class that it would actually make sense to have.
Just let me buff my friends and be an actual front line pls
titan players created the culture around them being punch-brawlers, you can still see the paladin identity titans had back when d2 launch came out (sentinal shield). but once forsaken came around with thundercash, the "haha me titan me punch" culture really started to shine, and they perpeuated it, solar bonk titan, thundercrash, strandmelee. you guys created this culture and bungie fed into it to make you happy. now they've nerfed it and your wondering why bungie thinks your the punch chass?
@@vanta9608 Strand titan 12 punch is literally the most fun I've ever had in a video game. Then they nerfed it for the 5th time. It's still good, but they should really revert the nerfs it got in the final shape.
You can already do this exact thing with Ursa, highest damage buff in the game and making everyone behind them near invincible. With solar resist you can tank witness beams and only need to worry about jumping.
@@tradewindsgaming8402yeah, except for the fact that if you want to do that you have to stop doing damage, also ranged supers don’t go through the banner shield, so you’re actively blocking your teams damage, vs nerfed well, which still gives healing AND a slight damage buff.. while not blocking anything. Titan sadly just isn’t good.
@@somacringe9637 maybe read the last 2 lines of the original comment
Titans used to also be the soldier class. They had weapon buffs in the subclass and the rally barricade used to auto reload their weapons.
so did well of radiance with lunafaction boots, but i see where ur comming from.
Dude that barricade auto reload was so fun. I loved it
@@klunihaltetmisit was a necessity on the callus boss
you know why they removed auto reload
Cause Datto got baited by the Crown Of Sorrow raid and cried about it afterwards. @@bottybelcher
Easiest fix would be to force the devs to play titan.
Just look at the prismatic reveal, hunter and warlock the devs were talking about all the cool stuff you can do, look i can throw gunpowder gamble and I can get more bleak watchers with devour or lightning surge 3 times then titan is like... I can't even remember what they said about titan, they throw a diamond lance then missle the ogre champ without killing them.
Something along the lines of "You can jolt enemies using all of your abilities and then finish them off with the cool blades of strand" paraphrasing a bit but that was the jist, unlike the other 2 classes, no proper aspect or abilities names were used and the gameplay wasn't doing any favors
If you saw the episodes live stream yesterday. I think they were using. Two warlocks and a hunter lol. Not one Titan
They even thunder crashed a champion and didn't even kill it 😂😂😂
Remember the void 3.0 days where we were waiting for WQ? One dev talked a lot about voidwalkers void soul aspect saying it was a passion project, then had little excitement when asked about nightstalker.
Name-dropping all the stuff for the other classes and then they get to titan and say
"HOLY SHIT guys look you can suspend them....and then melee!!!".
That's when I got that tickle at the back of my mind thinking it might not be all that great. Though it got drowned out in the rest of the hype, admittedly.
Shoulder charge movement never needed to be nerfed and I will die on that hill.
They turned shoulder charge into a movement ability then proceeded to nerf the mobility
"oh boy i missed my shoulder charge because the melee tracking sucks, guess i have to wait 15 seconds for literally no reason"
they killed every shoulder charge in the game for me after they did that
it should've been a pvp specific change, not a global change since we are not faster than others at all in pve
shatterskating and wellskating is so incredibly easy to learn and lets you skip entire jump puzzles in raids and sometimes it's actually used in encounters with the 2nd encounter of RoN being a good example of that
we may have bubbleskate but that's:
1. a whole lot more difficult to pull off than a wellskate or shatterskate (unless you use macros)
2. does not boost you in the air in the slightest like a wellskate or shatterskate
3. uses up your entire super which means you have to wait in order to do it again
i think it might even be slower than a wellskate or shatterskate but i have no source for that so i can't say
the whole game shouldn't be balanced around Hunters being mad they're not the best at everything in pvp, hope that helps
And while we at it, include Seismic Strike or at least give it a reduced cool down if it didn't hit something.
Gotta love how they nerf that but are perfectly fine with warlocks scroll wheel skate and icarus dash on a 4 second cooldown
The internal shift to Titan's being PUNCH CLASS is the 9/11 of the class as a whole.
Real 😂
And I freaking hate that they were the punch class. So many seasons where PvP was just roaming Titans waiting to punch you around corners. Warlock had ONE SEASON of Handheld Supernova was a tactic, and that got nerfed and HHSN was junk for years after.
Yes, the meme became the reality
We even started to get pissed that everything new we got was just a different flavor of “punch” especially the supers. I remember how livid the community was when blade fury was announced,we thought we were going to get a minigun but got punch with a different flavor,again…
@@onesmileybaldy8303 Dude I've been screaming that since I saw strand. I'm so tired of just punching.
It would be nice if void overshield was stronger on Titan. Not just in the consistency of getting it, but also the strength of it too cuz those can get torn off way too easily.
The bastion aspect should improve void over shield on titans and all allies that are near one with the aspect
I thought it would be cool if void over-shield got stronger after each kill while over-shield was active. Stacking to a maximum. Then for pvp, they could cap the stack at 1 - which would be equivalent to what it currently is.
This comment right here, I feel like the way the classes would be balanced if if intrinsically titans had better shield buffs, like an improved overshield or stronger version of it. Warlocks having an enhanced version of grenades and devour with touch of flame and feed the void, and hunters being perfectly fine where they are at (except for having better melee then titans) since they are glass cannon and rogue, they apply the debuffs on targets, titans provide the damage boost and shielding, and warlocks give the healing. That's how all of this should have been
@@MrNuclearzngl I feel like that would be a perfect buff for unbreakable instead. Gives a passive benefit to all overshields (more health and damage resistance) and using unbreakable gives these buffed overshields to nearby allies
Bastion definitely needs a boost too tho (or just reduce the god awful cooldown)
The problem is that Bungie had outright said that they want Titan to be the “punch” class. Nothing more.
I hope that changes. I want the soldier back. From D1 days. With Exotics that gave bonuses to heavy weapons and weapon types, could use grenade builds, and subclass synergies to weapons like shotguns and auto rifles.
I miss being the wall. Not the “crayon-eater” class.
I don't know why, but seeing you call us the "crayon-eater" class hurt so bad.
I know it's a meme but it does get tiring being called crayon eater but everything that makes us that is nerf to the ground, might as well sniff glue.
Only way Bungie can redeem themself with the Titan, is to turn him into the Tormentor.
Oh yeah. Whenever I hear the sound of a Tormentor spawning I feel some kind of pressure. I want my enemies to feel the same.
Agreed. We should be walking around with a giant F-ing strand sword that lasts longer than 5 seconds that suspends and severs foes simultaneously.
@@asimovstarling8806if they end up ever making more darkness supers I think it’d be really cool to give the Titan something like a strand spear. They throw it similar to the twilight axes but it sticks the ground (or boss) and it pulses like the banner of war (basically a suped up BoW, like how well is a suped empowering rift). Every pulse it deals damage and unravels enemies, every 3rd pulse it suspends, allies inside the radius are given woven mail and it pulses about 9 times. To me that’d give it utility to help ad control or provide some sort of DPS help wherein the titan can provide damage while improving the survivability of the fireteam.
Bungie: Titan means punchy boy, and that is all you can be.
Players: I would rather have other options, but okay.
Bungie: Why are you punching everything? We are going to nerf punching.
Players: My kin in sin, this was solely your idea, solely your implementation, and the only choice you gave us.
Blame all of the 1-braincell and titan crayon eating memes for your current predicament. No sympathy for people that main a class without giving them access to the others.
@@GusJenkinsElitebit weird that your take is ‘just let it go, play one of the other 2 classes’
@@GusJenkinsElitewtf kind of argument is that?
@@Max-vt6ib wow you really filled in those blanks liberally, huh, because in no way did my statement imply to "just play one of the other 2 classes". I'm saying until now the community has reinforced this playstyle and it's only *now* that enough people are complaining about it. However at the end of the day if a class isn't giving you the power-fantasy you want, *not* playing another class or accepting this reality is stubborn and/or ignorant.
@@chrisberg7862 you all complain that bungie never listens to the players, but when they see memes and videos about titans being punchlords *thats* when you don't want them to listen?
I just hate how dumb the Ward of Dawn Nerf was. Who thought that was a good idea?!!
there’s only warlocks and hunter mains on the dev team. in other words, favoritism at it finest. it’s a blatant at this point on which class they enjoy playing the most and I wouldn’t be to surprise their trying to find some sort of excuse on “removing” titan out of the game just like they did to the vanilla base game since it’s gone.
SERIOUSLY!! they basically reverted it back to how it was when destiny 2 launched. like whyyyyyyy
Titan’s we’re the best defensive class in D1 & every chance they get story wise you see a titan throw up a ward of dawn. We need that energy back. Titans should be the ultimate defensive class in the game. I remember being the last man standing in VoG and pulling us back from the brink with a ward of dawn. That feeling was great. We need to be the shield again.
They should let us shoot out of ward off dawn, or make dipping in and out of ward give full overshield. Or give weapons of light a 30% damage buff
The problem is well it's just better. It provides better functionality with less setup then titan bubble. Since bubble needs more setup and complicated movement to deal damage, it should have better rewards.
Also bannershield should provide much more of a damage buff since it's taking away an entire Guardian for damage. Have it be tied that ursa improve damage output by an additional 50% or something
You never will be remove warlock well remove healing well
But then all the little hunter mains will piss themselves and cry because they can't fight us in pvp :(
Bungie tried to give titan a different way to play with Arc 3,0 as they outright stated it was going to be the Titan "grenadier" class. They immediately nerfed the grenade portion and gave it a melee exotic armor piece (that they also immediately nerfed).
Titan is the Derek Zoolander of classes. It has one look, no matter how many times they come up with something new, it is still the same look. When you combine the narrow scope with repeated nerfs, you get to a state that just feels bad comparatively to the other two that have much more flexible application.
they nerfed arc grenade titan only to rebuff it to give storm grenade to warlock for their prismatic class.... like are you serious? Nerf it for titan then give it back buffed for a different class....
@@alaskayoung3413I was just saying this the other day!!! They increased storm nade damage by 20% UNLESS Touch of Thunder aspect is equipped….
They even improved the tracking. I thought it was a load of bs honestly…
Not going to lie kind of made me angry when I read it, but to Bungie Titan is an afterthought or “chore”.
@@alaskayoung3413 that's because none of the devs play titan. I thought the worst offense was giving all the classes access to the two best exotics in our class with synthoceps and hoil on exotic class items. Like either of those classes needed their ability builds juiced to the gills
Ngl my favorite meta was hoil arc titan in Season of the Plunder, destruction was insane
@@thebestthebestthebestthebe5249 it was fun while it lasted
One of the other big issues is that a LOT of Titan build variety is heavily reliant on exotics. You want a good Suspend build because base Drengr's is mid? You need Abeyant for 3 lashes and woven mail. Want to make solar grenades viable at all? You need Ashen Wake. You want to make Shield Throw not a complete joke? Second Chance. Diamond Lance usable in any higher end content? Lance Cap.
We're so reliant on exotics to shore up our abilities that this has two detrimental effects- 1, if the exotic is overperforming and Bungie nerfs it, it usually kills an entire build in the process.
And 2, because our Class Item only get parts of the exotics, it's usually far worse than just using the base version. Why use something like Abeyant/Alpha Lupi class item when Abeyant Leap just gives Woven Mail and is better. A Class Item with two barricade enchancers like Abeyant/Horn would be a fun little build, but losing woven mail and barricade regen from solar kills makes it feel terrible. We don't even have great synergy in our class items unless you want to play Triple Consecration. If playing Thunderclap, you need something like Skullfort.
Literally every build across all classes rely on exotics. What’s your point here?
i wish skullfort was changed to work when you have an arc super, arc aspect, or even just an arc ability equipped so you could just throw thruster on
it would also make it synergize so much better on prismatic titan
@@giga-eggI remember one of the things I wanted to try was using Thunderclap + Skullfort with Consecration. Unfortunately Consecration is counted as a solar melee regardless of what you have equipped.
@@TerraTheWise My point is, most exotics enhance a build. Titans need many exotics to make certain aspects and abilities even functional.
Probably why I like Wishful Ignorance so much. It takes an already decent Flechette/Banner of War build and makes it better. Many Titan abilities are garbage without exotics ties to it.
Example, Drengr's Lash. Base Aspect sends out one non-tracking wave from the barricade that suspends for a very short duration due to the nerfs. Pretty mediocre overall and requires Abeyant Leap for the 3 lashes and woven mail to be any good.
As the video says, we lack synergy and have a lot of underwhelming aspects, being reliant on exotics just to function half the time.
@@bransonallen2925 yeah that's how i thought it would've worked aswell
One of the biggest issues that I've noticed over the years is how exactly Bungie chooses to balance the Titan kit. Like you explained, many of the core mechanics tiptoe around the line of being completely busted or useless. Titan, at its core, seems to be built to either provide backline support (suspend and bastion primarily) or go in like a lunatic and get melee kills (banner of war, sol Invictus, knockout, controlled demolition, etc.). Both of these playstyles are supported by Titan's ability to (in theory) either sustain or resist incoming damage. The problem here is not necessarily the fact that Bungie will occasionally release mechanics that go into the busted side, resulting in it getting nerfed shortly after and gutting the class, but that the nerf itself not only weakens the respective power of these abilities, but also their upkeep.
Take Bonk Titan: one of the arguably most powerful sustain builds in the game. One of the reasons that it was so good even in high-end content was because of your ability to spam the throwing hammer while having Synthos proc'd, allowing almost infinite generation Sol Invictus. This meant that, even high damage enemies could be taken down quickly enough to allow for sacrificing a bit of health in order to get Sol Invictus healing. Now, however, the cooldown restricts exactly how you're able to engage with these high health enemies. In a scenario where you'd previously be able to engage (albeit somewhat brainlessly), you now need to stay back and evaluate whether there are enough smaller enemies nearby to oneshot, proc the healing, and only then go in for the big guy. Problem being, you can just opt for consecration and not have to worry about moving too far into the fray.
Strand titan has a similar balancing issue. While banner of war is still good, one of the most obnoxious components of the activation is the fact that gaining stacks of BoW is up to rng. On its face this seems like a fine change - in high ad environments (which seem to be becoming more common as bungie turns up ad density) remaining near your teammates and letting them get kills while you occasionally take out an enemy to stack BoW. Herein lies the problem. Banner of War, especially when playing with efficient players in PvE, can be almost impossible to upkeep as both of the other classes can specialize in killing lots of enemies at a distance. This means that you either must choose to be near targets and allies as teammates kill them, or have a good build to kill targets alone hoping teammates won't finish off enemies outside of BoW activation distance. This creates, at least in non-solo play, and extremely unsatisfying and often frustrating gameplay loop. I can't play aggro with my team because I'm at risk of taking damage without a return on my investment, ie, not gaining banner stacks (either by not rolling good rng to proc it or by a teammate being outside of the activation zone). I also cannot play passive, because I lack any built in long distance ad clear, dps, or team support.
Stasis titan faces a similar issue. While early on it saw good PvP play, one of the issues running it in PvE was your lack of ability generation. Until recently, your capacity to get abilities and use tectonic harvest was very limited to either your loadout, or grenade recharge. You also didn't have good enough sustain to get in the middle of enemy groups, as your melee ability (unless you ran the slide crystal aspect whose name escapes me) actually works against you 90% of the time. Knocking enemies outside of your immediate effective range obviously meant that you can't actually close range follow up. With the introduction of frost armor and the tectonic rework, you now have woven mail on stasis, but now lack ability to get health back. This means your subclass is reliant on exotic healing, teammate healing, high recovery, or a playstyle that's far too passive for how the rest of the titan kit seems to be designed. You don't want your melee back that often: it doesn't provide meaningful synergy with the rest of your kit, and it can actually mess up your loop more often that it is useful. Now you have tectonic, an aspect for all intents and purposes designed to give DR and ability regen, providing regen for your least useful ability in terms of the "get in there and break crystals" loop.
Void titan faces the issue you've mentioned, no keyword upkeep, but exacerbated by a lack of meaningful exotic and aspect choices. However, in comparison to the rest of the subclasses, void titan is arguably the ONLY subclass that has some degree of flexibility in playstyle. Through controlled demo, throwing shield, and HOIL, titan retains damage options from far away that allow constant volatility procs, thus healing you and ad clearing. I'd argue that void titan is actually the least representative of the core issues discussed both in the video and by me. The problem with void titan is just that it has useless/unuseable aspects/keywords. In pve at least, your few opportunities to keep overshield up (taking into account damage taken and ability to get one in the first place) is far too limited to fully build into it. From a buildcrafting perspective, the utility you gain from mechanics like the bastion aspect is far outweighed by your loss in every other useful PvE ability.
Finally, arc titan suffers from a somewhat unique problem to the other titan subclasses. Like most subclasses in the game, arc titan obviously requires abilities to proc its keywords and do stuff. Unfortunately, this means arc titan is exclusively reliant on exotic armor that gives energy in some shape or form. Outside of perhaps pve, running anything but hoil, cannon, or skullfort leaves you no ability to actually do anything. You don't have radiant to increase outgoing damage, you don't have volatile rounds to help ad clear and damage outside of your core ability loop, you have no meaningful dr like woven mail or frost armor, or sever or slow to disable enemies. This means, outside of seasons with arc related regen or effectiveness buffs, arc titan begins to severely underperform (in pve). We saw how potent arc titan was when it had the ability to get their abilities back (hoil spam era), yet after the inevitable nerf of that exotic, arc titan became, though fun, incredibly sub-optimal in pve outside of using it just to have thundercrash for dps.
At least in my eyes, the power level of individual subclasses and their keywords is actually surprisingly fine. The issue, in many ways, is a combination of proc requirements and upkeep (as you mentioned). Unfortunately, outside of changing their balancing philosophy, bungie cannot simply tune up the numbers on titan abilities to make them good. This is the reason why they feel so oppressive when they're strong. What titans need are far-sweeping alterations to not only their keyword upkeep, but to the consistency of this upkeep. Titans are at risk of just feeling kind of bad to use if they don't give upkeep that actually feels good within their respective kits. It's a shame, because by no means do I feel that titans are a weak class. Its that our ability to be useful, or at least more useful than the other two classes, is wholly reliant on situational functionality. We simply don't work in certain scenarios because our kits are too built into one loop that doesn't provide any interesting or satisfying benefits outside of its own internal synergy. Inconsistency is the bane of the class rn, as I see it.
You’re so right with the situational issue of Titans. People bring up the solo pantheon guy using Titan, but he could use Titan cause he was solo. He had full say in what died and when to keep his buffs, normally those encounters when it’s damage phase are empty but solo it’s still full of ads for him.
It makes titans less like the big stalwart knight that goes toe to toe with the boss and more like a bully that needs to pick on weak stuff before hitting the big guys
@elementalfire2567 You sir, took the words out of my mouth. I was going to write the same, granted, being a bit more subjective and somewhat biased. But I will refrain to comment and stand by yours. 10/10 would read again.
Warlocks: Boss DPS / Survival
Hunters: Boss DPS / Ad Clear
Titans: cRaYoLa
As a titan main for years, I am now a warlock main after my disappointment with titans in the final shape. Other than hazardous propulsion ofcourse
same. 10 year titan main shifting to hunter :(
@@gavinlucas1111same here dude, titan since day one. Made a hunter geared it up and it’s insane the amount of pain I can dish out while fumble fucking my way through the class
Same, I've been a titan main since d1, and I've only just now switched to warlock after TFS because I've realized Bungie truly doesn't like titans.
Hunters complained about titan so much they killed the class especially in pvp.
With the introduction of hazardous propulsion I'm hoping titans in the future can build more into a "guy with a really really big weapon" playstyle like buffing actium war rig into being the lucky pants for titans
It should be the lucky pants of titan fr. Retrofit Meta again would be funny af
@@ianmills6260 it would need to be toned down tho
@winglessleo2476 not saying carbon copy. Just have it imprve machine gun dps
sweet business should be our still hunt when paired with actium war rig since it is pretty much THE titan weapon
i want sweet business to be meta bungie, give me this
@@giga-eggi think actium should give all autos and machine guns target lock. At the minimum. And if we get that warlocks should get something specifically for pulse rifles.
As a titan of 10 years. I gotta say i hate what they did to the class. It's not even fun playing a class that the other two can do everything better at
It is also important to mention that many builds coming out now allow hunters and warlocks to have FAR BETTER sustain and even tanking. It just feels like being kicked while im already down to be honest...
My warlock buddy out sustains me so easily i have almost no sustain meanwhile my friends giving me teir 2 cure and regen at the same time using a grenade he can use every 3 seconds because of cooldown reductions built into his kit and not his diclipline stat my stats are so good yet i cant do much of anything
So annoying that I can be a higher power level than a warlock and/or hunter on my fireteam but I go down 1st bc as a titan I'm trying to do what Bungie designed it to do, get close and punch and if I don't guess who's doing the ad clearing, not me. 😑 and for love of Destiny, why do we have such horrendous grenades choices...
Getaway artists prismatic and devour allows me to just stand in mobs and not fking die. I have to work waaaay harder as a titan to not die.
As a warlock main who loves explosions, taking the grenade regen from controlled demo was criminal.
YES. they legit stealth nerfed void titan with void 2.0 by completely removing resupply from the game and they literally did not address it not speak on it in any patch notes like we wouldn't notice lmao smh, like in forsaken that was one of my favorite builds.
knowing bungie i feel it will make its way back into the game as a fragment instead so every class has it instead of titan 😂
Titans need more ranged melee abilities and not just a shield throw.
Give titan some recovery boost as a passive too
Make that you can pick up the shield like the hammer and give him a new melee shield throw which you can charge up goes way faster and ricochets (actually ricochets like khovostov) and really does a good amount of damage. I imagine it like him holding the shield on his pointer finger and thumb like captain america would be so cool. The charge up animation would look similar to thunderclap
Shield throw was "buffed" and it id still really ass. Damage is better but the milisecond you play anything above -5 light the shield starts not even killing red bars. That coupled with minimal magnetism, high drop and slow flying speed make it one of the most unsatisfying melees we have (still better than Stasis Titan melee)
My biggest issue with shield throw is that half the time it bounces off some weird geometry and just bounces between the floor and the ceiling, wasting its bounces and not hitting anything. If they were able to change it to remain horizontal like a frisbee, and prioritize the final bounce to return to you as a catchable shield similar to the hunter strand melee, I’d be more inclined to use it
You mention how titans are about sustain a lot but I don’t see any sustain. Both warlocks and hunters apply restoration easier. Titans only have woven mail. All 3 classes have the same HP too. So why does a melee focused class have no sustain? The void overshield is made worse when a single dreg shot depletes the entire thing. It’s pointless
Maybe I'm incorrect but I'm pretty certain solar titans apply resto easier than solar hunter.
@@karson2022 You are correct. All you need is a bonk kill to create a sunspot and you get resto. Hunters have the least survivability in the solar department.
But he is right for the rest of it.
@@niksen3300 word, and the sad thing is they have buffed void overshield since release and its still weak in pve.
Prior to Strand Titan; Solar Titan was the sustain god. It always had restoration, damage reduction, and cure.
Before Loreley Splendor was nerfed it was giving Titan's restoration x2 on it's own and we didn't have to build into sunspot for it. It just worked. Titans could literally stand in the middle of an arena against an army and just out healed any incoming damage. 😂 It was hilariously over powered.
I remember when my friends would wipe in a raid and I would just stand there talking to them while I soaked bullets from adds and boss. I had to jump off the arena to die.
Solar Titan is still not bad, but it's still overshadowed by the other solar classes since our hammer got nerfed.
@@karson2022they buffed void overshield? Why in the void's name does it break by one single dreg shot in pve??
Ngl, we'd have better luck if void overshield is tied to another buff that grants player the overshield on kills or ability damage, then we could utilize Offensive Bulwark instead every 3 mins via Bastion.
I've been a Titan main since D1. I've enjoyed being a tanky war machine. But the only melee fatigue started hitting when Strand was first showcased. I felt really disillusioned because it feels like the majority of Titan super/abilities revolve around punching things as much as possible and being in CQC constantly, even thiugh thats super risky in the upper end of content. After I got to play with Strand, I stopped thinking about it as just "green Fist of Havoc" because Banner/Into the Fray let me heal/get damage reduction not just for myself, but my entire party. Banner became a staple for us moving safely through first encounter of Crota's End without having to rush, and it let me tank solo at the bridge encounter in conjunction with the Lament.
When Prismatic was previewed I was excited. But when I got to play with it, and then compared it to Hunter/Warlock kits, I was... disheartened to say the least. On top of that, removing Weapons of Light from Ward of Dawn was like a slap to the face. Its like Bungie doesn't want Titans to be able to play support. I know Hunters are focused DPS specialists and Warlocks are supposed to be support focused specialists, but it would be nice to offer something. Right now it feels like I have little to add/provide because self sustain survivability is "too strong" and keeps getting nerfed along with the few shared support stuff we can do.
They also hard nerfed ward of dawn.
They also hard nerfed ward of dawn.
I hope they introduce more tanking abilities to the kits. We need something that pulls aggro of enemies. I think this would complete my stronghold build. Also unbreakable allows for more tank style gameplay as well and I love it!
@@SuperFunduck Being able to pull aggro would be amazing and would tie right in to providing unique support.
nah fr, getting diamond lance as one of the starter aspects in final shape was the worst. especially running on legend campaign, I was literally useless compared to my warlock and hunter friends. the hunter is permanently invisible with stylish exec and the warlock has infinite devour + stasis turrets. meanwhile, I threw a diamond lance. that's... it. no healing grenades, no banner of war, no tectonic harvest, no form of support at all. we got unbreakable, but it's not even worth running if my other teammates don't even need a tank. I just swapped back to void and had a blast with the new super.
First off, other than all titan subclaases needing reworks, stasis still needs a rework because the last one was just trying to fit stasis into prismatic, but we also need every source of survivability at least concidered for a rework.
Secondly, the archetype of titan needs to be evaluated
Hunter are:
The Assassin/Ninja
The Gunslinger/Cowbow
The Ranger
The Acrobat
The Martial artist/Monk
Warlocks are:
The Cleric
The Wizard
The Summoner
The Witch
The Schoar
The Phenix
Tians are:
Punch guy... 👦
When they should be:
The Knight
The Soldier
The Barbarian
The Paladin
The Heavy
The Space marine
I actually had 2 space marine builds back in the season of the haunted.
Both solar, with two different machine guns. But bungie nerfed regeneration TWICE and made warlocks the only class that can proc stronger restoration x2 (unless you use stronghold post buff.)
Now it's literally unusable in high tier content, restoration is too slow to add any meaningful survivability, and radiant is such a paltry buff that it shouldn't even exist.
I used to be able to hold down Tommy's matchbook, spraying high damage death into a room like a Mobster, I used to be a roaming CWIS with Heir Apparent... Now it's nearly impossible to survive anything.
Lion Rampant with Belenus Booster, tangled Web chest, lustrous chromite gauntlets really help with the space marine look. Grand overture or skyburners somewhat fit the weapon style too. Sure it isn't a great build, but it's so fun. I haven't found a helmet to suit yet
Love how Titans are the ascetic militarily disciplined punch guys in the lore, but Hunter of all classes gets a Monk themed subclass. I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed in Bungie's ability to completely misread their own lore.
100% there legit no thoroughly thought out identity for titan. The lore of the titan CLEARLY shows were the warrior race. why do none of our subclasses lean into this?
the closest we had was sun warrior titan as the flame that keeps burning. In fact we were THE original scorch & ignite class. then of course bungie took that identity and hard pivoted that warlocks. like cmon they can't both be the healers and the scorch/igniter class where is the balance??
@RomeoEchoDelta I'm actually fine with Hunters having the monk-like theme. I don't really think it would have translated to Titan as well, seeing as monks in popular media oftentimes are smaller framed, quick but deadly.
While I don't think the Monk archetype would have been incompatible with Titan, I think it fits Hunter much more.
Titans were originally the soldier class. Destiny 2 killed that original vision, which is why this situation has finally been realized.
Ok but what does that mean. “Soldier class” doesn’t say anything
@terribletimes902 I'm assuming like gun focused with grenades as a side and barricades like a soldier shooting from cover?
@@terribletimes902 It says more than enough.
Focus on amplifying gun stats, keeping teammates in the fight, supplying ammo, etc. Banner of War, for example, actually works well within the correct Titan framework, but poorly in Strand because it could be any color and still function the same. Something like Solar Hunters' On Your Mark would fall under this concept.
Destiny 2 did a lot to kill class identity, because they went away from the original concepts of the IP, going for an extremely dumbed-down, casual experience meant to maximize profits.
Yes. They have to fix class identity. Not aim for every class can do everything, while having such performance gaps in the kits.
Either stick with the three classes need to compliment each other or go for a more RPG like roster, where you decide how to deal damage, CC and sustain with clear drawbacks.
So as Titan you kill by dealing less damage but having cc and resistances, as Hunter you deal high damage and have to dodge and kill fast to sustain bc you can't take huge Bursts of damage yourself.
You can't give Hunters Mobility, Dodges, strong Melee, high ranged DPS, Sustain and basically the same Resistances as the tank class.
Another way would be to give each class a Synergy Layout for playing as a team of different classes and one for being an Allrounder in Solo Content.
@@ThatFalloutGodall classes are soldier classes if you only use guns the whole time
Well prismatic consecration titan relies on getting transcendence because without it, frenzied blade takes way too long to get charges back unless you have monte carlo so you are stuck on cooldown half the time and ya you feel weak.. the main titan prismatic build doesn’t even function half the time. This is coming from a warlock main who loves ability spam
It's so annoying that nothing in the kit regens any of the abilities when using the abilities.
The exotic selection really compounds the issues, we have way too many niche exotics and a large number of them dont provide much flexibility or benefit on prismatic I.e; lancecap, peregrines, icefall, doomfang, path of burning….
@@danielwilson3225 Also exotics that have effects that are barely noticable, like Mask of the Quiet One. or exotics that make you go, "Why? Who asked for this?"
See Arbor Warden
@@susaigithefallenone8323 i totally agree almost every titan exotic needs some type of tweaking, even the pvp focused options have fallen way behind. Arbor warden is a unique idea but doesnt actually benefit would be cool to see something like increased regen on barricade damage/full refund on a break that way it could atleast have a niche and its own gameplay loop
Okay I'm a Titan Main and I'm going to list off my feelings on the class as someone who's been playing since day one d1,
Arc feels really bad it doesn't help that the one thing that they want to Titans to be good at was blinding and you don't have to be a Titan to do that, thunder crash is a really bad super that puts you out of position and absolutely needs an exotic to be useful. Fist of havoc is a super that when they nerfed it and took away its monster ad clear potential because of how effective it was in PvP it destroyed it completely (they should bring it back to the way it was in PVE because we have exotics and even legendary weapons now that clear entire encounters in high end content)
Void is a class that disappoints me because because it's supposed to be providing overshields and keeping the up time on the thing that's now a weapon perk but overshields suck and the other is on a perk now. Ward of dawn they murdered if you don't realize that I don't understand how, banner shield is particularly weird because they do need to increase its ability to kill because its range is awful, and it doesn't provide enough of a damaged boost to make sense taking a gun out of the fight, meanwhile it is useful in making sure you can't die but that's really all it's useful for these days,
Solar every class can do everything so it breaks down to what can each class provide by itself, and warlocks and hunters can do way more because hunters can provide team-wide radiant and warlocks can have pretty much permanent up time on restoration x2 if they want to, Hammer of sol is better and burning you only use because of Pryo,
Stasis just feels bad there isn't a lot of ways to say it it just feels bad it is pretty fun to have the stasis crystals and play into it but it doesn't feel great on anything that is moderately challenging,
Strand if it didn't have banner of war would be one of the worst classes because the super would be good but you would die too often while using it, and you don't do anything unique the other classes can do everything that you can do but with either a little bit more difficulty or they just have to use 1% more of their brain,
If you really think on how Titans have dominated it has been because of the neutral game in everything except the Mesozoic era that was two primary, roaring flames and banner of war and you did have the brief moment where fist of havoc could clear an entire room by itself and still have most of the super it also had higher damage resistance back then so you could use it on a boss which you were doing significantly less damage than one guy with an outbreak but you could 😂 it's just really weird they should have designed Titans to be a heavy gunner tank class not a melee class because their design philosophy does not line up with allowing melee to flourish because every time melee starts to do good they hit the panic button and destroy it.
And when I say tank at the end I do mean I support tank, think OverWatch 1 brig. It's because Titans had the identity of being able to help and now that identity is pretty much gone.
A soldier class with sustain and empowered grenades and fortifications would be nice. But then they nerf everything on titan to obscurity.
My favorite titan meta by far was storm grenade titan, that meta was so dam fun but it got nerfed to the absolute ground…
It got severely nerfed then they nerded HOIL.
Also warlocks get storm grenades which were given better tracking and a 20% bonus to damage. UNLESS you have the touch of thunder aspect equipped you don’t get the extra damage lol
@@jimmcmeen761 I eat my grenades anyway so bonus damage is worthless
And once you get another one you can throw it ...
i'm still pissed they stealth nerfed controlled demolition when it launched. they literally erased the resupply ability that was tied to it when forsaken launched and never said anything smh. controlled demo titan was the original volatile class in the entire game too and they nerfed a huge proponent of it and ver said anything
Titans should have some inherent bonuses to their kit similar to how warlocks can have perched threadlings. Things like woven mail being stronger on Titan, overshield being stronger on Titan, frost armor, etc.
A cool buff to bubble if they don’t want to add WoL back is to have an ammo crate spawn in the bubble (PVE only) that your teammates can grab heavy ammo from.
They also need ways to taunt enemies to live out the protector idea and actually use unbreakable/banner shield.
I just want Titans to be the tankiest class in the game, Hunters to be the fastest class in the game, and Warlocks to have the best support
But class indentity doesn't exist in this game beyond "Uhhhh this one punch slightly better, this one shoot slightly better" which isn't even accurate most of the time
Agreed. Sadly I will say that Hunter Mobility isn't really useful either. Another problem.
Imagine if Barricade did other things like give volatile rounds that would improve aim assists or something like that.
towering barricade generates overshield x2 or x3 which makes overshield actually good
rally barricade gives volatile rounds while behind it and generates overshield x1
Depending on your super it could grant relevant keyword buffs to players in the vicinity. Being able to jolt nearby foes would make the barrier a real tactical asset, and an emergency restoration proc at will would play massively into the sustain fantasy. Frost Mail and Freeze for Stasis, Unravelling Rounds or Woven Mail for Strand: let us be the Swiss Army Knife of the fire team.
What would have been dope if Bungie added thrusters+bastion. Like imagine getting a dodge in and give not only you an overshield but also your nearby allies? Avoid death and while giving protection to your team? Like c'mon Bungie.
this is what i wanted banner of war to do where allies rallied behind you gain volatile rounds on void weapons
The problem is for so long we were the punch class.... not the tank class bungie said we were. Plus 90% of our supers are useless. Why do you think warlocks and hunter get used? Because they help the team by dps or survival.
What do you think a team would want? A bubble or a well they can shoot out of? A golden gun or a weak tcrash that can't even reach the witness??
On top of all that, void overshield still isn't good and gets melted off fast in anything above on-level content. Titans are the only class that can easily apply and get void overshield and no one cares cause its so weak.
You want titans to be more meta, buff the things we can do to help our team during raids. The bubble change was a small step in the right direction. We need bungie to push that way, way further.
i can only disagree with the change to bubble lmao that was flat out the worst change they made recently. they basically made it the way it was when destiny 2 launched in that it just gives you a overshield
Being the 'tank' class, I really want titans to have dedicated aggro manipulation options - be the decoy that grabs all the enemies attention whilst being the shield to protect the other 2 "squishier" classes.
Being able to manipulate aggro could also be used to even out or even justify having higher sustainability - because they would need it if most of the enemies are gonna be forcibly drawn towards them.
An example would be giving BoW aggro manipulation when up (after all, they literally have a big green flag sticking of their backs, which basically already screams, "Hey! Look at me!"). It also provides an interesting gameplay tradeoff in a team: do teammates stay away from the titan and not pull aggro, but also not get any healing or help sustain BoW. Or get close to get said healing but risk pulling aggro away from the titan?
Their could be different tier strengths of aggro. If BoW aggro is considered a tier 1(consistently aggro low to mid tier enemies) because it can last for a long time, then something like unbreakable could be a tier 2 aggro manipulation tool (ie. Consistently aggro high tier targets/bosses) because it doesn't last for very long. It could also be of benefit to unbreakable as the shields counter will be charged more quickly given enemies are much more likely to target them.
But this is just me spitballing.
Agro manipulation genuinely means nothing for the majority of encounters in the game. It would be half hearted at best for implementation.
The other issue with Titan is Warlocks get better devour, restoration, and threadlings but Titans don't do better Shatter damage, have longer lasting suspend, or even a better overshield. So on top of many aspects and exotics missing 3.0 verbs Titans don't even get better versions of those verbs like the other two classes can have like Hunters can get better invis, two grapple grenades that also leave an access point or can even make teammates go invis and refreshes your ability for each teammate you buff.
How much do you want to bet that PVP is the reason that Titan's aren't better in those areas you mention?
If I had to guess where they started doing the melee or nothing push for titans, it was 1 baby hammering atheon.
They need to rework Titan into the ultimate support class. Give over shields to the fireteam, team wide buffs and enemy debuffs, stuff like that. Warlocks and Hunters already DPS enough. If they were more support oriented everyone would want one in the squad for difficult content
Thruster needs to work with barricade exotics and give all Titans a second grenade charge as default (exclusive for titans). Exotics or aspects can bump this up to 3 max
yeah they also just need to give thruster some kind of additional utility in general. like maybe it makes you amplified when dodging near enemies or instead it jolts enemies after sprinting while amplified or something.
warlock and hunter have class abilities that are strong and consistent at base across all their classes.
our class ability really only has a benefit on void and unfortunately void over shields are made of paper
I've been playing my Titan almost exclusively since Final Shape came out.
On my loadouts, half of them have Precious Scars. The other half is Stronghold builds. Those two exotics have enabled me to do every bit of content in the game.
One interesting path forward is the Hazardous Propulsion exotic. I love the idea of a Titan exotic building into a particular weapon specialization. I think there is room for Bungie to explore that more.
scars is so boringn though... its literally basically the warlock devour aspect but it takes a whole exotic
@@alaskayoung3413 : That's one way of looking at it. But I don't think that's such a bad thing, really. Devour is really good.
I never take buried bloodline off unless I'm on solar or strand
@@actsapologist1991 and it suxks you have to match your super with the weapon damage type. So you can’t use it with any kinetics which is a huge fail with outbreak being so good etc.
@@alaskayoung3413 . Well.... you can use it with kinetics on solar. Bungie said they were fixing that glitch, but I am wondering if they have decided to make it a feature.
Honestly, if they simply added “sol invictus” or “BoW” I think titan prismatic would be on par with or at least closer to keeping up with the other classes
Agreed
As a Titan main, I would love to see this happen, but I think it’s highly unlikely.
@@stupedgamin876 honestly, even Into the Fray would have been better than Drengr's lash IMO. Tangles are kinda lackluster without a full Strand kit to support them, it might have been nice to have that.
@susaigithefallenone8323 while I do think these would work I think they might end up just being bandaid fixes to the issue
@@karson2022 You're probably right. Realistically, there needs to be some deep reassessment and overhaul on Bungie's part.
I had an idea for a juggernaut rework, as it without a doubt the single worst aspect in the game. New description: You are more resistant to knockback(50%), while amplified, you cannot be knocked back, and you gain damage resist(30%). You gain more damage resist against arc and melee damage(50%). Taking damage while amplified drains your class ability, removing the dmg resist if your class ability is drained. Thoughts?
I dunno man. The hunter arc version of consecration is also pretty dogwater
@@karson2022 at least it's good in pvp lol
@ianmills6260 i meaan is it? Tbh arcstrider is the hunter I see the least in pvp. Juggernaut was also good in pvp till it got nuked from orbit o7
@karson2022 that's because it's not very good lol. Tempest strike is a pretty solid aspect on a pretty mid subclass. Like consecration.
I want it.
It’s annoying when ease of use is the issue, but then other classes do the same thing, but even easier AND better lol.
It’s honestly frustrating how long it’s taken people to figure this tf out. It’s been a problem since d1.
I didn't play D1 so I didn't know. Dang.
My favorite time playing as a Titan was during the Heart of Inmost Light, Arc meta. Using all of your abilities together to continuously boost them was fantastic. and it made Titan feel like a walking storm, with how quickly abilities recharge.
I ended up switching to Warlock almost exclusively because of the similarity in gameplay (high ability uptime and synergy, crazy ability effects like the Strand spiders, etc.)
Booster with the Hazardous Propulsion exotic seems pretty freaking cool as it finally gives Titan a new ranged attack, though it should have been an aspect / fragment.
Titan just isn't fun to play anymore for me personally as it's just too melee focused now. Would be cool to have some more armor abilities like the Hazard's Rockets or Some kind of Shoulder Cannon or something to that effect that makes them feel more "Frontline Soldier" again.
Im a titan main and have been since the beta of d2 (used to be hunter d1), its genuinely crazy how weak i have become from supers, nerfs, and lack of being able to play my playstyle. I believe the first signs of trouble was when bungie during the prismatic overview for hunters and warlocks, new supers, grenades, and abilites were being shown off with pride, yet with the titan video, the dude throws a shield and thats the highlight. Every super is a melee based super that ia designed to get you up close and personal with the boss or enemy, yet in higher difficulty content, you cannot get close unless you can pull off the most smooth brain play and survive a ground slam or other attack. Hammer of sol, ward of dawn and sentinel shield, and twilighr axe are the only throwable supers, but why would you want to use base supers when maul, twilight and bladefury exist? Ontop of it all, every exotic i like to use has been nerfed or isnt viable in most situations anymore, dunemarchers? Nerfed. Insurmountable Skullfort? Trash since why would you really want to run fists of havoc or thundercrash. Helm of Saint-14? the recent nerf to ward makes them more viable but it wont be on par of pre nerf bubble. Pryogale? Great exotic except ive noticed that my damage has become weaker, unlike during the time of into the light where that thing smacked and clapped ass. Synthoceps have been the only exotic ive been running and im tired of having them, why cant we have fun like how hunters have celestial and still hunt, or warlocks and speakers? Golly gee, a chest piece that has rockets when you land precision, i wonder what other rocket chest piece would be cool to have that made playing titan fun, except warlocks have icarus and thrusters are okay but shield is very important. I love being aggressive in playstyle but when im reduced to punching and being mike tyson without the fun, it gets under my skin, and i know that if change comes to titans, people will complain that its too drastic or op and that it ruins the meta, like im not already doing 2 mill against hefnd and my hunter friend is putting out 7 mill casually. Im tired man, titans are great but ill be damned if bungie doesnt have clear favs and care more about snipers than a portion of the playerbase.
I really like the void Titan kit, but that is because I run controlled demolition and use offensive bullwark as a little bonus whenever I get it
Void Titan to me feels like it needs every aspect at once to actually be a complete subclass, and void overshield needs to not be trash in pve
Controlled demolition is one of my favorite aspects and would be so much better on prismatic than unbreakable
I have to have a Repulsor brace weapon on me at all times just to utilize my kit.
@@sentineltitan2348 i chose not to utilize one, because it's not what my build is centered around
They should have never EVER nerfed shoulder charge!
TLDR: punching in a game that punishes being close to enemies is a bad idea despite punching being 2/3 of your DPS.
Imagine casting Golden gun but you have a 50% chance of dying when you shoot. Thats modern Titan risk management.
a very simple issue is that bungie walk the fence on having roles in the game, they want titan to be a "tank" melee class without having any actual tank/ healer, dmg classes in the game.
titans will never work as long as bungie force them to be a melee class without letting them be borderline invincible and having extreme cc resistence and movement imparing effect resistance etc etc. try runnning up to an ogre to melee him.
Consecration is cool and fun but i've been using it for a year now. Imagine eating the same meal every single day
Titans need to focus more on defence so maybe make barricade give some buff or just do something on cast according to the subclass for example make void marinade give overshield without aspect or solar barricade give restoration for few seconds ect.
Titans shouldn't just be the melee class. A Titan should be a very imposing threat to the opponents, the line in the sand that says, "We will not fall behind this point."
I have some hope for Titan in the near future. Not only did they give us a ranged One and done super that weakens, but and exotic where you have to get precision kills (or just weapon final blows) to proc it instead of melee kills.
Honestly loving the titan with hazardous propulsion but that has nothing to do with the subclasses lol
I like how when they where first introducing us to Prismatic the big concept was “adding things that where not used much before”. This is mostly the case for Titan besides two aspects… Concentration and Knockout. If you genuinely do not use Knockout on Striker find help because it’s a no brainer add to any Titan Arc build. Concentration however became a staple of Solar for Titan imo and made the class have a survival subclass instead of the pure chaos that strand is. (I dislike strand quite a bit due to its very aggressive play style that in most encounters is not worth the risk). In conclusion adding both knockout and Concentration have essentially ruined prismatic. Let’s be honest, knockout is not a “no brainer” when health regen off melee kill is given from other exotics and even in the blessing fragment. Adding these two Fragments has caused the class to have an identity crisis.
They generally didn't add anything that was not used as much. Nova Warp, and Blades were not given to Prismatic which is bizarre because Nova Bomb and Deadfall hunter have extreme utility and should have been given to Prismatic.
Ol reliable 3x slam with knock out never fails me(help)
You can view it a certain way too.
Hunters are focused on class abilities/their dodge, Warlock are with grenades, and Titans melees, being the last ability.
The main difference being that Hunters and Warlocks aren’t hyper-focused to it and can deviate to a large extent, especially with their exotic armours.
Titans are basically melee or nothing, for the most part, not much room to deviate at all, because if you do, suddenly you’re almost useless.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but this is how I’ve noticed it been.
Honestly I've just stuck to well and banner titan. Hunter is the only one that is gonna use prismatic, just sucks to see.
I wanna point out that hunters have 11 supers to build off of, warlocks have 10, and titans have 9.
Hunter might have the most supers but the useful ones to build into is reduced to 3 (not counting the dark subclass because you are forced into it anyways) just like the rest.
As a titan main i have really been enjoying playing as my warlock for the past month.
I want to preference this by say I’m not a Titan main, but that’s mainly because the issues with the class prevent me from having fun. Especially on prismatic. These are changes I genuinely think would allow Titan to feel like the unstoppable tanks that bungie wants them to be.
Diamond Lance -> Howl of The Storm
Drenger’s Lash -> Banner of War
Keep unbreakable, but change it to give grenade energy back based on the damage blocked rather than retaliate with a shockwave.
And there, that’s how you at the very least “fix” prismatic Titan imo
I think the solution is expansion on prismatic. The biggest issue with Titans, at least to me, isn't that they only have the one gimmick, punch-heal, but that prismatic doesn't do a good enough job at taking that to a new level. Simply expanding the subclass, whether that be new aspects, abilities or fragments I think could solve the issue.
When Weapons of Light became a 25% damage buff and Weaken was removed from Hammer Strike. Those changes are what removed Titans from the meta.
They stuck around for a little bit with font of might elemental shards and reeds, but when the LF mod system came out, titan has 0 things to offer warlocks and hunters can't do better
some random ideas for changes to titan.
sentinel
bastion aspect now changes how void overshield works: it now has a shield gate (taken from warframe) and in the duration of the shield gate killing an enemy gives more overshield (the shield gate timer gets lower and lower as it gets triggered before 10 seconds from the last one
unbreakable - dmg taken while unbreakable is up now converts to void overshield. sentinel shield now works like unbreakable while equipped.
Ursa furiosa (banner shield exotic) - while it works with unbreakable just simply making it give super energy is not enough for me personally
unbreakable shield is now wider and lasts longer. distance of dmg goes further.
melee dmg buffs are now cosolidated into 1 melee buff only with the highest buff is used.
knockout: while amplified health regen in increased and starts earlier
banner of war: health regen increased
synthos: health and ability energy is given for any kill within x amount of meters
behemoth:
diamond lance now give a stack of frost armour on hit
cryoclasm reverted
howl of the storm now gives increased shatter dmg or shatters now works like kills from agers scepter
for now those are my ideas. probably over the top but they can be toned down
Having an entire class built around being melee range in a sandbox where all enemies at higher difficulties one shots you is a pretty ducking bad idea. Especially if they nerf it too as "oh no, the tank die s in 2 shots instead of one"
To echo your point but add to it. They pretty much went with everything underutilized from other kits. problem is the lows are so much lower for titans underutilized stuff where for hunters and warlocks they were serviceable
Raz, I emplor you to check out itsthedub gaming's latest video. I actually believe that while dps hasn't been marred, pris hunters are the most disappointing, or could use the most tuning. Honestly, though, all pris subclasses are limited to one or maybe two optimal builds. Locks aren't leaving home without devour, and hunters' most powerful midgame tool, combo blow, is still useless in endgame, so we're forced to rely more on exotic weapons for endgame viability. Imo, this effectively kills the power fantasy for hunters. One thing that's for sure..warlocks game out on top with prismatic.
I actually feel very similarly towards Hunter! I'll definitely check out the video and see what they say
@@RazekiYT
It's nuts.
As someone who only play Titan since D1 (yes I have tried warlock for 1 day) but besides that only Titan. And It feels like if Titan is strong is because it's gimmicky. But the only way Titans can compete with the other classes is mostly through gimmicks. You can't take any engages with hunter if they dont want to especially with thier dodge and hop. They can get out of any situation they want with no real drawbacks. And warlocks sustain feel way better. Shoulder charge lost its OS ability, you cant slide shoulder charge anymore, then lost it as a movement abilityand gained a cd if used period. Synthos lost it's lunge ability and they nerfed knock out. When Smg's was strong Titans ran it because of Pk's. Well the Hunter Hancannon only society wasn't happy so both Smg's and Pk's got nerfs at the same time. While bubble was anoyying, it's just as anoyying a Shot gun can take down the supper. Not to mention any offensive super can take it down and kill the titan in it. Why don't they just cancel each other out?
And lastly Prism Hunter is broken rn and while bungie already mention they plan to do something. It's wasnt because there was a huge outrage like when Titans are strong. It's because everyone is almost celebrating how strong it is and using it because it's "fun" for hunters. IB been hell you legit can't take any engages because you going meet a clone into smoke and scatter combo every fight!
That last bit is so annoying and aggravating bc I'm reminded hunter mains always respond with "if you don't like the clone+smoke+scatter combo sounds like skill issue."
Swapping out Drengr's for Banner of War within the Prismatic subclass would be a nice and really needed change, at least our sustain would be relevant again. I agree with the other comment on here that the devs just really need to play Titan as it is today to get an idea of what we the players are going through.
Prismatic consecration builds are insane and I didn’t realize how good it was until I took into the GM this week
The real problem is how bad warlocks are and how bad they keep getting
As a titan main I haven’t personally been able to enjoy prismatic titan. I played titan for my first play through of final shape and had fun but the moment I got prismatic on hunter and warlock the titan kit just felt boring and bad. Only aspects that work together on titan are just knockout and concentration and the class item feels underwhelming compared to the other classes also while also looking bad. After all this I have ended up playing warlock more than titan in the final shape.
The titan aspects need a rework or a replacement, IMO knockout does not belong on prismatic and should be replaced with the juggernaut aspect while making the shield break trigger class ability effects such as drengr’s lash and giving different effects based on what class ability you’re using,
consecration should return a small amount of melee energy back depending on how many targets you ignite
unbreakable should get the grenade regen buff from offensive bulwark which gives increased regen while you have an overshield
Drengrs lash should get class energy when you suspend combatants
Diamond lances you summon perform similarly to the terraprisma from terraria where they float behind you and fly towards enemies they lock on to similarly to threadlings, they can no longer be picked up by you or teammates, but otherwise perform the same as if they were thrown with homing similar to jotuun
I just don’t want the sixth class to be only locked to suicidal melee runs, I want to feel like a tank, or a commander, I want my presence to feel like I can turn the tides if the going gets rough, yes Hunter may be the dps kings, yes warlocks can keep themselves and everyone safe, but I want to feel like the wall the darkness breaks upon
(Controversial opinion but I feel like titans should be the only ones that get the resilience dmg resist, make that their intrinsic trait, give warlocks constant but slow regen, about a third of healing from their rifts, hunters should get better sprint speed and reduced enemy accuracy while in the air, that way everyone has a stat they can focus on)
Bungie when the tank class tanks: "Well we can't have that."
Sadly Bungie devs are mostly Hunter mains and that's not even a conspiracy. Look up any dev account an it's 90% Hunters.
There's a clear bias around class balancing.
I mean they where upset when Hunters did not win the first guardian games
I honestly dont know anything about build crafting, I just copy builds from UA-cam. I thought it was just me, but I have actually been playing solely on my hunter and warlock to run gm's, and it only just now occurred to me. 😂
0:46 before I watch, my belief is they’ve always been to centered around melee, now that we get a combination of the other subclasses, all Titan really got was to choose what color they wanted their melee ability to be
Even if we don't get a full rework, bungie could just add synergy in general to aspects and exotics.
Ex:
Diamond Lance: Code this thing as a powered melee. Let it work with things like Point contact, Hoil, Severance, ACD/0. I want to see lightning crash down when I throw a lance, let me use it to feed my other abilities or armor mods. Also, IT'S NOT A TANGLE. I cant shoot them, I cant grapple it and get a refund. Let lances be spawned on you by default.
I don't want to write an essay, but simple interactions like this across the board can easily put titan back in a fun and competitive position.
I feel like Sentinel and Striker would both be a lot better if all of the "melee" requirements for their kits were turned into "close range" requirements to give some flexibility to how players approach combat.
For particular aspects I think making Offensive Bulwark would be much better if it were capable of providing its own overshield so that it doesn't lock the player into using specific fragments and aspect combos to be turned on.
Juggernaught also needs some way of being actively engaged to be useful as it currently turns off immediately if the player attempts to do literally anything useful such as turning, sliding, dodging with Thruster, shooting a gun, or engaging a melee attack. I get that it might break PvP balance, but honestly fuck the PvP sandbox at this point with how many times it's been the reason for gutting Striker's kit. Just give Juggernaught like 2 hp in PvP or something and let it be useful for PvE for a change. Incidentally lets take away Knockout's melee lunge distance and give it back the ability to be refreshed with a longer duration.
I honestly think that Behemoth could be perfect if Bungie just fixes Cryoclasm and removes the ridiculously restrictive shard cooldown.
One thing that i managed to brute force together with my Void Titan that weirdly enough actually allowed me to feel like the unstoppable juggernaut im supposed to be...was a Warlock build; I brute forced Devour into the kit and built entirely around using devour and maintaining grenade energy that way for Unbreakable, that being said, Void titan has always been my favorite and i will always try and find some way to make it work to be fun, i love being the shield for the team, but taking myself out of the dps phase to hold the shield just overall harms the team in many cases, and then using Twilight Assault, which i love as a super, dont get me wrong, it can be hit or miss in a lot of situations due to its seemingly VERY bugging aiming/coding, as i find myself having axes that seem to get stuck on me mid air and not make it to any enemies very frequently, like, embarrassingly frequently which feels awful if it happens to even 1 axe never mind 2 sometimes.
A way to make prismatic titan better is to move the unbreakable aspect to a class item, changing barricade, that frees up having two useful aspects.
The podcast speaker said titan don’t have tools to get an over shield, which is a stated I disagree with. Titans have the most options for getting an over shield. The void melee shield throw gives an over shield, there are multiple exotics that give an over shield and the shield aspect lets you get an over shield with your class ability. At this point, as a titan main, an over shield is boring.
I spent around 2 hours brainstorming some ideas for titan changes. I wasn't able to think of any modifications to prismatic or strand titan so Ill leave this up for discussion. But I want to share some ideas I came up with. Credits to @Sharpscore247 's comment for inspiring me to think of those changes.
Titan enhancements :
Solar : The smite/grenadier subclass
Since consecration was released I never felt it should be an aspect of its own. Make it just a melee variation (do this for alllll classes pls.. slide melee aspects should just be melee variations). Also solar healing should be distinct than healing in other classes.Cure should flat out cleanse me from any status effect/debuff and make it harder for me to get debuffed for a short duration after the fact (for all classes) while other healing methods in game shouldn't cause this status cleanse.
Sol invictus: Path of burning steps should be baked (pun intended) into Sol invictus. I see noo problem why my allies shouldn't be able to use my sunspots. Maybe path could give radiant when in a sunspot similar to how sunspots in D1 used to give. Also when you miss your bonk hammer it leaves a sunspot in its place (also also pleasee give us the UI indicator on where it is).
Roaring flames should apply to all solar damage sources. Solar final blows causes you and your allies to have increased solar ability dmg (stacks up to 3 for the solar titan. And up to 1 for allies).
Since I believe that consecration should be a melee variation. Consecration should be something like touch of thunder but the solar version. For example : healing nade causes scorch to spread to nearby enemies. Solar flux nade should behave like ashen wake and cause ignition on impact (ashen wake should do something else but lets leave this for an exotic rework chat). Thermite nade should gain an additional charge.
Lastly this class particularly needs a one and done super. You throw one super powered hammer at a locaiton, where it lands a wide beam of pure flames descends from the sky in that location scorching everything in touches (think of brimstone's ult from valotant or cabal airstirkes).
Void : The Fortification subclass
The first change to this subclass needs to be a fundamental rework of what an overshield is. To me an overshield does nothing but add HP to my character. To make overshields more potent and distinct from health, make them prevent knockback and greatly reduced and splash damage and sniper damage along with its current effect, or greatly reduced damage from other elements (im thinking make the os gain some of the chest mod perks).
Make unbreakable apply to your supers consuming your melee AND NOT GRENADE (I mean titan melee is a LITERAL shield).When using banner shield, you can return incoming fire like the VoG relic. When you have Bubble, you will periodically return waves of void energy all around. When you have Twilight arsenal and you are damaged, on heavy throw release all incoming damage.
Controlled demo. Should give me and my allies overshields on volatile explosion. It should grant sentinel and arsenal an extra throw not bulwark.
Offensive bulwark should make it such that ALL void final blows extend void overshield for you and your allies (as long as this ow is granted from you).
Bastion : make it such that void OS makes you and your allies have increased reload/stow/ stability to weapons.
Arc : The Melee subclass
Touch of thunder : arc didn't make sense to me to be titan's bombardier class. Since D1 arc was THE melee class so it should play into this.
Make ToT allow me to consume my grenade charge to gain an extra empowered melee charge that deals more dmg and creates a blinding/jolting explosion depending on the grenade type consumed.
Juggernaut: Make me feel like one.
Along with its current effect. Make it such that its harder to knockback/slow/freeze/tether/ with a small DR as long as I have a full class energy.
Knockout: as is.
Stasis : The heavy weapon subclass.
Cryoclasm should cause cause an increased shatter damage based on the distance you slide/travel with your melee. Refunds some ability energy for stasis shatters.
Howl of the storm should be a melee varriaiton. AND PLEESE GIVE TITANS A VIABLE MELEE (least you could do is give cold shoulder (pun intended) charge. Instead it should you and your allies can shatter stasis crystals easily with heavy weapons.Killing enemies with heavy weapons leaves stasis crystals in its wake.
Techtonic harvest should grant you and your allies an increased chance of gaining heavy/secondary ammo instead of melee charge (its not like behemoth melee is any good).
Diamond lance as is
Arc titan should be the grenadier. It is a lot more unique and fun. People just think arc=punch no brain because of knockout.
@ianmills6260 that maybe true but for me D1 Titan embodied the melee class. I remember a time in D1 when you could juggernaut shoulder charge everything. When fist of havoc used to be godly.
Also just look at the D1 arc titan skill tree ! Its all melee based.
Storm Fist
A punishing melee attack that deals bonus damage
Overload
Hits with Storm Fist have a chance to immediately reset its cooldown.
Discharge
Hits with Storm Fist deal area of effect damage around the target.
Amplify
Kills with Storm Fist significantly reduce the cooldown of Fist of Havoc.
Transfusion
Kills with Storm Fist or Shoulder Charge immediately trigger health regeneration.
Unstoppable
You are harder to kill while using Fist of Havoc.
The arc kit was alll punch punch punch from the start !!! XD ( I kinda miss the D1 skill trees)
@@ComicallyLargeSpoon25 arc titan was very boring in d1 tbh. There is no skill expression with melee based arc. It will never be good in pve either, as arc has very poor survivability.
I think they were thinking that prismatic titan could be too OP with some exotic class item combos but obviously it still needs a bit of tuning
my main gripe with prismatic is there's no grenade builds at all. the new grenade overwriting grenades when its procced ruins any chance of making unbreakable work on the prismatic kit. So at this point i'd rather have something like controlled demolition to get more ways to get health
Behemoth titan, make crystals and shatter them. Encouraged a close up, crystal generation then shatter play style. Nerfed. You could barely keep a a crystal generation loop going before TFS, but with Shard Creation cooldown, you have to slow down your loop or it will stopped. Worse, now Conduction can actively work against you, as you need to ration your shards for your cooldown.
In forsaken, Sentinel Titan, the commando tree was to make everything volitile. But Demolition was gutted in Void 3.0 and the ability regen was removed. The volitile lockout on enemies killed this even further. Now I have to choose between Bastion or Offensive Bulwark. With the overshield requirement for Bulwark, its a terrible pairing with Demolition, so now I have Demo with Bastion, which don't interact with each other at all, except powered melee. And the crazy thing is, Bulwark doesn't enhance melee regen at all, despite that being the only thing intersecting between the 2 aspects by mere fact of the melee being the only thing in the kit now that can generate an overshield. I know melee gets some other benefits with Vulwark, but those benefits vanish the moment you don't have an overshield, which is basically all the time in nearly all content besides patrol. If you want any sort of ability loop without Devour, you're forced to run Echo of Provisioning to get melee energy back on Grenade HITS, but Explusion for some reason has a stricter requirement of getting a melee KILL. Fairly certain all of this got gutted with ability scalars introduced in Wish, making it even harder to get a loop going without Devour. As a Titan, Demoilition should our version of Devour, with a gameplay loop encouraging it and the aspect tying into or enhancing volitile rounds as well. Warlock Feed the Void doubles Devour effectiveness in both health and ability regen and allowing all ability kill to grant Devour. Why can't something similar be done Demo, either increasing damage, or removing the lockout, or increasing health, or best of all, allowing melee abilty regen at least so you can run Bulwark without feeling like you are handicapping yourself.
Prismatic is so interesting. I have played hunter this season the most. I swapped back to solar and was so disappointed I disnt have a grapple etc…so in a way Bungie really pigeonhole’d themsleves with prismatic bc now its THE class to play but its brand new/unbalanced so ppl dont like certain things. Your analysis seems spot on. I think it just shows how lazy bungie is about maintaining the subclasses. They are more interested in releasing new ones than really working on developing each character/subclass into something amazing. And they limit themselves by saying solar = healing arc = jolting etc…which can be a good way to focus the team but imo it just turns out to be boring (one exotic for titan for arc builds). Imo the actual best implementation of prismatic is warlock with getaway artist bc it brings arc buddies to a kit that didnt have access to that and drops a stasis turret (or whatever) can get devour and you can do whatever guns you want…stasis is by far the weakest part of prismatic. I dont think I have ever seen one stack of frost armor on my hud. Imo making kinetics do both types of prismatic was a mistake and they should have just changed them all to stasis/strand energy bc of balance to-achieve prismatic. Class items are also underwhelming in game. It was looking like it was gonna be crazy now its meh…on one hand bungie wanted us to be the strongest thing in the universe, on the other hand they wouldnt let us have it
Also ngl i was super impressed that KO applied an arc firld to the tornado of fire that pyrogales puts out, also consencration somehow always pops arc and solar shields correctly to explode and doesnt crazy jack up the dmg but noticably did change it..tbh it reinforces that melee centric gameplay loop being that its 2 aspects and an ability dedication to ONE MOVE and probably 2 fragments aswell
I find it really strange they didn't design blended aspects for prismatic like they did with fragments. It would have allowed them to add in some of the essential parts of making titan aspects work when they're used in isolation.
Tbh i mostly thiught titans were eating pretty good at first but started to notice the gaps in all prismatic, additionally the more lacking being able to branch out and reliant on a handful of things really took the the wond out of prismatics sails
Bring back mini hammer throw without cooldowns.
Add mini hammer throw to transcendence, ass lighting grenade to transcendence.
We good.
I think I’ve said this before. But all we can do is pray. Pray bungie is cooking up something special for titans. Maybe not a whole rework but Christ! Strand is PERFECT for the punch fantasy. (Maybe Solar too). But the other 3 subclasses need something more than just punching. Void was always supposed to boost you and your teammates Damage output and defense, so why not bring back perks like resupply? Giving teammates Health, ability energy, and ammo would be nice on top of overshields. Or maybe add something new to a Titan aspect like roaring flames. Where each stack buffs radiant damage for you and teammates.
TL:DR: Strand does melee the best. The other 4 subclasses are ok for punching but should also focus on Support/other alternatives.
I like the idea of taking the same damage reduction that Consecration and Thunderclap get, and applying it to Shoulder Charge (when you have it charged and ready to use). It would give Titans a much needed way of just being tanky just to be tanky.
Give titans spirit of the gyrfalcon!!!!!!
As a main Warlock player, I feel like Titans really do just need to have a kit that strongly focuses them more on staying IN the thick of a fight than just surviving it, and there's a lot of creative ways they can likely do that without even needing to go strictly into overshield or damage resist and I feel like just thinking that "Tank soak up damage" was probably the most harmful line of thought for the class.
For one, Maybe make it so their barricade/bubble actually act as a glowing taunt that forces enemies to focus more on them, or at the very least focus on the barrier they put up. It kinda surprises me how with destiny's style of gameplay, they for some reason do not have a clear cut way to raise enemy threat detection outside of just dumping fuckloads of damage at once. That's genuinely a core concept of what a Tank's job IS; They dont just defend themselves, They're meant to defend the party and be the (Pun intended) Vanguard of the group. And honestly, I Feel like having more threat being put on them would also just balance out the Overshield acquisition and also give other classes still their chance to play their roles effectively
And if thats out of the question, maybe try not to completely kill buff acquisition but instead run a more delicate balance on the *Amount* acquired, since killing their ability to acquire sustainability just... Well, primarily harms their pillar concept.
"Too good with little effort required"
THATS LITERALLY WHAT A TANK ROLE IS FOR
wanted to suggest some changes I clearly thought were decent. I took some inspiration from some of the ideas and points of contention noted:
Void Titan:
Buff both shield supers to have the damage reflect effect unbreakable has but give it decent damage reflect in an AOE and do suppression in that field as well for bubble specifically. Don’t blight ranger this crap.
I think you could buff controlled demolition in general by changing it to activate on void ability or VOID effect and like someone else said add void over shield to the healing effect for you and your allies so that you give chunks of both on kill.
Buff the damage on Unbreakable by… a lot.
Let if give grenade energy per enemies damaged (up to half) and over shield off the amount of damage taken/blocked (as in stay at maxed out over shield while blocking and granted after reflection). If full over shield is gained through blocking damage the reflected damage also deals Suppression
Let them have an option to provide mobile health and over shield but in chunks instead of in full with bastion through controlled demo and deal out a little more suppression. Having the ability to maintain void over shield even in small chunks (god knows that can be easily removed) at all times through Unbreakable or CDemo gives offensive bulwark much more value overall in all builds. This could be the I defend to deal damage class definitively.
Arc Titan:
For the love of god please unpower creep tf out of thundercrash. It should be comparable to nova especially with cuirass.
I don’t even know what to do with/to striker super.
Give it a third super called Overcharge where you call a lighting strike down on you and your allies within a 20 meter radius of you get amplified, Knockout, maxed out reload, overflowing class ability energy, and an arc over shield (like risk runner) that deals blind to enemies when damaged for the same duration as song of flame.
Give juggernaut a blinding explosion when the shield breaks in a 10meter radius
Let knockout apply a 3 meter blinding effect on PvE combatants on Arc ability damage. Allow blinding enemies to give chunks of health back like melee kills.
Blind is probably Arc’s best Verb honestly and it could be utilized more in Arc in general and the super already promotes this so I mean.. let’s do it more. You can subdue most things with brief blights of being blind and instead of a cooldown it can be Balanced by limiting the blind duration on enemies to be 2 seconds so you either have to keep doling out damage or deal out enough to leave. Juggernaut now has a PvE use and has a semblance of synergy with the other aspect. Plus I imagine Arc Titan is in line to get a new aspect soon as well and it has the opportunity to play into touch of thunder and blind to really round out all aspects usage with each other.
Stasis Titan:
Give me a new diamond lance/storms edge hybrid where you get 3 giant diamond lances and get to teleport to where you throw them and pick them up and smash them into a target like slamming a rift.
Also give me another one and done where you slam out all your stasis crystals at once into a huge snowflake pattern (literally like the behemoth slam pattern in all directions around you at full range), then you shatter them all at once nuking the whole battlefield in one big shatter.
Give me a new melee option and some more grenades and we’ll go from there.
Also just remove cryoclasm’s internal cooldown and reduce the fall across distance of the melee or change the stasis shard cooldown to be 10 shards and let Titans stack up to x8 or with Rime up to x10 Frost Armor innately like Broodweaver has threadlings perched. They need a cool special thang. Either make them fast and a menace to escape from literally or a tank you can’t kill or get rid of (thematically) Their current super is so high damage in right use case, it could stand to maybe have the cone spread angle reduced by like a few minuscule degrees so as to minutely make it more user friendly on more bosses.
Solar Titan:
Hammer damage over distance change is weird but technically it does what it’s supposed to. Could stand to see a verbal buff to hammers.
New aspect - most likely last of the light subclasses to get a 4th
Strand Titan:
Eventually a new super and melee and new strand grenades. We’re far away from that most likely.
Prismatic Titan:
Now swap controlled demolition for unbreakable on prismatic and open the ability to proc off any ability kill or subclass effect.
Give those added knockout effects and open up the ability and effect requirements and now you can blind and get chunks of health off of any ability kill such as diamond lance, suspended enemies from drengr, or even now controlled demo. (Ooh that’d be so nasty)
Now you can pair knockout and controlled demo to be mobile blind and health unit while dolling out over shields. Drengrs lash with controlled would just start blowing up everything suspended or with knockout could chain off blinding off suspended targets. New knockout doesn’t really buff the consecration build because nothing would be alive to be blinded within that range anyways so it doesn’t really effect that.
Update Mask of the Quite one to increase damage dealt by reflecting damage with unbreakable, bubble, or shield and to give suppression effects to CDemo for a brief 1-2 seconds (like the buffed knockout) after reflecting damage (7 seconds for Unbreakable, 12 seconds for Sentinel shield, 30 seconds for bubble) add the CDemo aspect of Mask of the Quiet One to Stoicism instead of aspect of the bear.
(Aspect of the Quiet One even sounds cool af guys!)