My husband is a covert. After 13 years I’m totally exhausted. He’s sucked me back in once again but now I see his true colors and I’m working on getting out. Thank you for the validation. 🙏 to the outside he’s the greatest such a good guy. He goes months and months ignoring me. Absolutely refuses to even speak a word if I try to talk some issue out. Uses everyone of my insecurities against me. I used to think I was crazy because everything was twisted around on me always. Not anymore!!
Me too honey. Been married to my for 16 years but mine was also a serial cheater but always sucked me back in. I started doing research on him and the more I learned about ‘them’ the more I gained my inner strength. Strongly suggest listening to the book called The Covert Passive Aggressive Narcissist by Debbie Mirza. I found the strength to leave my marriage 3 weeks ago & I also have a 5 year old son. I have been happier and so much peace even though I’m told often that my decision will ruin our son. But I do not let his words affect me anymore. Once you see who they really are you can see their game and that you’re on the same roller coaster ride you’ve been on with them for years. I’m thinking of you and praying for your strength.
I have found a lot of them in religious institutions because it's pretty much the only institution where one can rise to a position of power without having any credentials.
I saw the true Colors of my ex-husband to be! I recently had to quit my job due to a toxic work environment and asked my husband if we were ok financially, and I knew we were, he replied: Don’t worry we’re ok! When came time to help financially he didn’t offer to take over the financially responsibility temporarily until I found another job. He expected me to continue providing financial support even though I didn’t have any revenue. This was really the drop that made me break up with him. I saw his true Colors! He was obviously 🙄 demonstrating all the other factors that you mentioned Caroline. No empathy, no emotions, no caring, demeaning, playing the victim, etc.
I don’t like knowing that I’ve been duped for many years. I was always searching for answers in the confusion and blaming myself. Thank you for explaining this bizarre behavior!
Yes, I lived with it for over 20 years....he was forever the Victim and yes they will hold grudges and make you pay, He had an extremely traumatic & abusive childhood, and projected all that onto me ,.... I suffered coercive abuse the violence was extreme, I had to leave to save my own life. I have PTSD and recognise this dangerous disorder straight away now . I spotted it really quickly in a new neighbour when she moved in , came over to meet me & acted all meek ,mild & lovely but has since harrassed, stalked, abused me,used me, Gone through my mail, Im a magnet for these types its been absolute hell,..... Im relocating soon so heaven awaits 😇
Just be careful. Learn what to expect if you can't leave right away, and how to help prevent yourself from being abused worse. In some cases they can be dangerous. If they have ever made false allegations against you, you must be careful, too. Being passive aggressive with put downs, etc., those things are early signs. There are other people who've gone through this, so there is info out there which is helpful. Gray rock does seem to help. Just make a plan to keep yourself safe. But yes I can relate to what was discussed in this video, and much worse, unfortunately. I have learned that there are a few things I can do that help.
my ex covert narcissist passed away two months ago after 10 yrs divorced, first I cried, then I got really angry at him, then i felt immense relief, then i felt bad for feeling relieved and now I feel nothingness
I know he's getting what he's totally deservant of. Perhaps his reincarnate self will be on the receiving end of exactly what he did to you. NOW is your time to live your best free life!!!
Wow. This is literally my life with him. I felt as though you were talking about my relationship with him. He is a covert narcissist and it all makes even more sense now. I have spent so much time and energy to the point of mental and emotional exhaustion trying to get his.. very dysfunctional and enabling... parents to believe me about how truly terrible he is to me. Your words have helped me see that I don't need to prove anything or try to convince anyone. Thank you.
I hear you Christa, I was married to a covert for 12 years. It is TOTALLY exhausting and always a mind-fuck. The family of the narc makes all the difference in the 🌎 Do they see & hear what I do??? Fortunately for me they understood without ever calling my ex a narcissist. Also, fortunately for me, I was able to heal my relationship with my in-laws after we all figured out I was being told X, they were being told Y, and my ex was pulling all the puppet strings to make us believe Z......it’s a terrible situation to be in and I wish you nothing but peace, love, and the will to push through. I know it sucks and every minute of every day feels like an eternity. Stay strong and listen to your gut instincts...
@@JillfromChicago thank you so much for your kind words and wishes of a positive outcome for me and thank you for sharing your experience. I try and keep my head up every day and I'm also trying to let what he does/ days bother me less. I just do me every day now and keep on pushing forward💜
Yes! Hadn’t had a drink in. 3 years, quite proud of having self control in this area. Stepping out and taking a trip to see family, there is a bar at the hotel, HE will not be staying at the hotel with me…. Hurls a horrid insult that only he and I knew was an insult…”hope that alcohol being so available isn’t a stumbling block for you”.
Totally relate. Thank you! Currently in the megaphone stage. Also realizing that two of my female friends are narcissists. Auditing my friends. Trying to work on and strengthen self care and boundaries.
Hi Caroline I'm totally totally dealing with a covert narcissist. My soon to be ex wife guys your description to a tee. Than you for reminding me that it's about my healing journey and not trying to convince others. I have lost 27 year relationship due to covert narcissist, and I'm trying to move forward. Thank you for your videos and podcasts.
People who have not experienced the covert narcissist, as their victim, have no idea what we have been through. I make videos too . . . but this lady’s channel is truly therapeutic. Mine are on point and funny, but without the qualifications of a true therapist. Humor, in addition to Caroline’s techniques, is healing me. Best wishes to you in your new, narc free, beautiful world.
Caroline, thank you so much. I was bullied in elementary school.. my bully ended up becoming my best friend in middle school after 5 years apart. From that point in we’ve had an on again off again relationship. I always put her needs before mine, never felt truly loved, she would hold grudges against me like none other and 2 years ago I felt like I needed to break up with her. I waited.. because we had a huge fight (while on a trip to iceland.. who does that?!) .. and during this fight she said sorry but the underlying abuse from my childhood clearly stuck with me. I forgave her. This past summer she was having some pregnancy problems, but I could feel like I needed to break up with her. I ended up doing it at the most in opportune time, because she was treating me so poorly because of was she was going through. I couldn’t get her on the phone and wasn’t able to finally end it for good until November. Because I still couldn’t get her on the phone, I ended it with a voice memo.. so I could be as kind as possible. Now I feel the exact same feelings of how my other friends can still be close to her. I’m 30 and I’ve known her since I was 4.. it will take a lot of healing, but I’m beyond grateful for your channel and would really like to be a part of your groups.
My ex husband was beyond playing victim and manipulating.... I discovered photos on his cellphone which he took of himself, with bruises on chest and right underarm. He sent those photos to his daughter stating I had hit him, when in reality he had been the agressor all along. I was in shock. Keeping in mind he is a black belt Judo “teacher”. As for your shared example about how different they are when there is an audience and when they are alone with you... I have many of those to share. Thank you for your courage to share your story. It has been a long tough and lonely road, but I am thankful to God from whom I get my strength, and for my two amazing boys who keep me going. God bless
@@coreyanderson1457 one can have all the boundaries they like… doesn’t stop narcs from lying their way through, as to avoid accountability or taking responsibility for their actions and or words. Sad truth. Take care
You are spot on! One thing that I have noticed when dealing with my Narc sister is that when she is going to start her narc behavior, her voice changes. She isn’t yelling nor raging her voice goes very calm and her style of communication flips into calculated words and body language that resembles a predator going for their prey. She is a covert narc as she is love and light to the world but behind closed doors it’s another reality. This flip of the switch in behavior has really creeped me out.
Thank you thank you thank you! You have just perfectly described a former long term close friend. I should have seen all this from day one, but I hung in there for many years, thinking the problem was me. So glad I no longer have this person in my life.
This is spot on. It took me a few months after our split for me to figure out that my ex was a covert narcissist. I've dated a narcissist before so I noticed some of the traits but I didn't realize there is a different type of narcissist until my recent ex. I'm still really struggling It's been 8 months since the initial split but I was hoovered up until 4 months ago when I realized that in the pit of my stomach that he did indeed cheat and find another supply while we were together I just couldn't catch him because he is so good at hiding it. He's a former Marine and hid behind his" injury" and "PTSD". Everyone thinks he's a savior, so when I would tell people about his abusive behavior no one believed me and it was hard. I'm still really struggling with the damage he caused.
I'm so glad you did the video about narcissistic friends... I share part of a house rental with another woman and she is a overtly and covertly narcissistic. Saving up my $$$ to get the heck out of here. Doing my best to not interact with them other than cordiality, hello when in the common areas of kitchen. It seems by doing so is escalating their meaness and sometimes their anger and then they revert to blaming and yelling. If I'm fixing a meal in the kitchen and she starts her demeaning and yelling... I put my ear phones in from cell phone and ignore them till I'm finished preparing my meal and bring it to my room to eat. Terrible way to live...needing to avoid them while paying rent to live here.
💜love your content and can definitely relate to this video in many ways. Healing one day at a time and you’ve been a helping part of my process, so thank you! ✨
I'm definitely with a covert narc, he didn't pass his driving test so he shuts himself off in the bedroom and just didn't talk to me or even want to eat plus didn't want to interact with with own child, but I didn't feed what he wanted. But I know I'm in a toxic relationship. Can't wait for it to be other.
Is it possible to be both? My mum was always quite flamboyant virtually and very outgoing, she could talk to anybody about anything and was always the centre of attention when we had guests, meanwhile, I was sit or stood there quietly because she's take over the conversation. If I tried to chime in if I had something to say I'd be shut down by being interrupted by her or yelled at for interrupting and being called rude because she hadn't finished talking. I was like ay? I was just contributing to the convo and if I had "waited until they were finished talking "the subject would've been changed. Unfortunately I was guilted into becoming her carer when she became disabled. She said she couldn't cope and needed me to do everything now and take over. Of course now that all the chores were my responsibility, I could now be blamed for EVERYTHING that went wrong or not how she liked it. Then later on after some bad shit happened she'd always complain about how she was treated badly by people, she said she was abused by parents, partners and treated badly by cowprkers and so called friends and family members. She'd use this to make me feel guilty if I did something she didn't like. She'd compare me to all of her abusers and even call me abusive. She has recently started telling me I am the worst abuser she has ever had. I'm not going to lie and say I'm not a narcissist myself but no way am I doing anything like this deliberately. If I upset her it's not intentional. It's just that I'm not the perfect slave around the house that she wants. She said I was deliberately not doing things right to piss her off. I was mentally abusing her apparently because I know she was abused and I know she has OCD but I'm naturally lazier and messier than she is. She would take my lack of tidiness to mean I'm doing it deliberately because I know the messes stress her out. Not true. I have my own mental health issues undiagnosed but I have a legit slight phobia of tidying and cleaning. I try my best but I can't keep up the habit and do it every day as much she wants
Why are they so many though? It’s mind blowing to think there are so many out there that operate under this mindset. Something in the water?! I don’t get it.
pure hell...and this coming from a self aware overt...this type will make even a narcissist cut his wrist😂!! runnnnn! its the victim part they play that is so underrated/deadly
My friends wife is like this. I just call her right out on the spot when she goes into passive aggressive mode or victim mode. She just looks at me with a slight glare. It’s funny because I have had her number a long time ago. And just recently I called her right out & said she’s a fake ! Probably won’t hear from her again- good riddance!
My ex girlfriend has 2 dead husbands by age 40 one drank himself to death the other died of a brain tumour i just found out she cheated on his wedding night she cheated on me and told him i was abusive
It's so strange because sometimes I feel like I was the narcissist. Some of the things you describe makes me wonder. I have to keep reminding myself of the things that were done by the real narcissist but it sometimes gets really confusing.
I have been around a covert narcissist but was not a victim of hers but her family that she was closest to did because they believed she was in need of help I didn't see her that way I thought she was full of shit, and using her family so she wouldn't need to be independents.
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My husband is a covert. After 13 years I’m totally exhausted. He’s sucked me back in once again but now I see his true colors and I’m working on getting out. Thank you for the validation. 🙏 to the outside he’s the greatest such a good guy. He goes months and months ignoring me. Absolutely refuses to even speak a word if I try to talk some issue out. Uses everyone of my insecurities against me. I used to think I was crazy because everything was twisted around on me always. Not anymore!!
Same here!🥲
Me too honey. Been married to my for 16 years but mine was also a serial cheater but always sucked me back in. I started doing research on him and the more I learned about ‘them’ the more I gained my inner strength. Strongly suggest listening to the book called The Covert Passive Aggressive Narcissist by Debbie Mirza. I found the strength to leave my marriage 3 weeks ago & I also have a 5 year old son. I have been happier and so much peace even though I’m told often that my decision will ruin our son. But I do not let his words affect me anymore. Once you see who they really are you can see their game and that you’re on the same roller coaster ride you’ve been on with them for years. I’m thinking of you and praying for your strength.
Yes. Same for me for 13 years. Not anymore. Always have NO contact. No contact.
I have found a lot of them in religious institutions because it's pretty much the only institution where one can rise to a position of power without having any credentials.
#replay
It is the most exhausting drain a person can go through… mentally, physically, spiritually and emotionally .
I saw the true Colors of my ex-husband to be! I recently had to quit my job due to a toxic work environment and asked my husband if we were ok financially, and I knew we were, he replied: Don’t worry we’re ok! When came time to help financially he didn’t offer to take over the financially responsibility temporarily until I found another job. He expected me to continue providing financial support even though I didn’t have any revenue. This was really the drop that made me break up with him. I saw his true Colors! He was obviously 🙄 demonstrating all the other factors that you mentioned Caroline. No empathy, no emotions, no caring, demeaning, playing the victim, etc.
Woooww mine did something similar.. I don’t understand why words and actions should t have to match when it comes to them🥵
Thanks Caroline,every time i listen too you the ball and chain of ""i thought it was me"" gets lighter.
Yes! And the ball and chain was actually the narc all along! Once we heal we are soooo happy! Happier than ever. (The narc is miserable forever.)
Healing is the greatest threat to the narc., so don't expect them to be impressed.
I don’t like knowing that I’ve been duped for many years. I was always searching for answers in the confusion and blaming myself. Thank you for explaining this bizarre behavior!
You can heal, with the assistance of information like this. The narcissist cannot. Ever.
@@KatWoodland my covert narcissist can never heal because he’s dead. I have to figure out how to reconcile with the past.
Yes, I lived with it for over 20 years....he was forever the Victim and yes they will hold grudges and make you pay,
He had an extremely traumatic & abusive childhood, and projected all that onto me ,....
I suffered coercive abuse the violence was extreme, I had to leave to save my own life. I have PTSD and recognise this dangerous disorder straight away now .
I spotted it really quickly in a new neighbour when she moved in , came over to meet me & acted all meek ,mild & lovely but has since harrassed, stalked, abused me,used me,
Gone through my mail, Im a magnet for these types its been absolute hell,..... Im relocating soon so heaven awaits 😇
Just be careful. Learn what to expect if you can't leave right away, and how to help prevent yourself from being abused worse. In some cases they can be dangerous. If they have ever made false allegations against you, you must be careful, too. Being passive aggressive with put downs, etc., those things are early signs. There are other people who've gone through this, so there is info out there which is helpful. Gray rock does seem to help. Just make a plan to keep yourself safe. But yes I can relate to what was discussed in this video, and much worse, unfortunately. I have learned that there are a few things I can do that help.
my ex covert narcissist passed away two months ago after 10 yrs divorced, first I cried, then I got really angry at him, then i felt immense relief, then i felt bad for feeling relieved and now I feel nothingness
I know he's getting what he's totally deservant of. Perhaps his reincarnate self will be on the receiving end of exactly what he did to you. NOW is your time to live your best free life!!!
Wow. This is literally my life with him. I felt as though you were talking about my relationship with him. He is a covert narcissist and it all makes even more sense now. I have spent so much time and energy to the point of mental and emotional exhaustion trying to get his.. very dysfunctional and enabling... parents to believe me about how truly terrible he is to me. Your words have helped me see that I don't need to prove anything or try to convince anyone. Thank you.
I hear you Christa, I was married to a covert for 12 years. It is TOTALLY exhausting and always a mind-fuck. The family of the narc makes all the difference in the 🌎 Do they see & hear what I do??? Fortunately for me they understood without ever calling my ex a narcissist. Also, fortunately for me, I was able to heal my relationship with my in-laws after we all figured out I was being told X, they were being told Y, and my ex was pulling all the puppet strings to make us believe Z......it’s a terrible situation to be in and I wish you nothing but peace, love, and the will to push through. I know it sucks and every minute of every day feels like an eternity. Stay strong and listen to your gut instincts...
@@JillfromChicago thank you so much for your kind words and wishes of a positive outcome for me and thank you for sharing your experience. I try and keep my head up every day and I'm also trying to let what he does/ days bother me less. I just do me every day now and keep on pushing forward💜
Yes! Hadn’t had a drink in. 3 years, quite proud of having self control in this area. Stepping out and taking a trip to see family, there is a bar at the hotel, HE will not be staying at the hotel with me…. Hurls a horrid insult that only he and I knew was an insult…”hope that alcohol being so available isn’t a stumbling block for you”.
Totally relate. Thank you! Currently in the megaphone stage. Also realizing that two of my female friends are narcissists. Auditing my friends. Trying to work on and strengthen self care and boundaries.
Hi Caroline
I'm totally totally dealing with a covert narcissist. My soon to be ex wife guys your description to a tee.
Than you for reminding me that it's about my healing journey and not trying to convince others. I have lost 27 year relationship due to covert narcissist, and I'm trying to move forward.
Thank you for your videos and podcasts.
People who have not experienced the covert narcissist, as their victim, have no idea what we have been through. I make videos too . . . but this lady’s channel is truly therapeutic. Mine are on point and funny, but without the qualifications of a true therapist.
Humor, in addition to Caroline’s techniques, is healing me. Best wishes to you in your new, narc free, beautiful world.
Caroline, thank you so much. I was bullied in elementary school.. my bully ended up becoming my best friend in middle school after 5 years apart. From that point in we’ve had an on again off again relationship. I always put her needs before mine, never felt truly loved, she would hold grudges against me like none other and 2 years ago I felt like I needed to break up with her. I waited.. because we had a huge fight (while on a trip to iceland.. who does that?!) .. and during this fight she said sorry but the underlying abuse from my childhood clearly stuck with me. I forgave her. This past summer she was having some pregnancy problems, but I could feel like I needed to break up with her. I ended up doing it at the most in opportune time, because she was treating me so poorly because of was she was going through. I couldn’t get her on the phone and wasn’t able to finally end it for good until November. Because I still couldn’t get her on the phone, I ended it with a voice memo.. so I could be as kind as possible. Now I feel the exact same feelings of how my other friends can still be close to her.
I’m 30 and I’ve known her since I was 4.. it will take a lot of healing, but I’m beyond grateful for your channel and would really like to be a part of your groups.
My ex husband was beyond playing victim and manipulating.... I discovered photos on his cellphone which he took of himself, with bruises on chest and right underarm. He sent those photos to his daughter stating I had hit him, when in reality he had been the agressor all along. I was in shock. Keeping in mind he is a black belt Judo “teacher”. As for your shared example about how different they are when there is an audience and when they are alone with you... I have many of those to share. Thank you for your courage to share your story. It has been a long tough and lonely road, but I am thankful to God from whom I get my strength, and for my two amazing boys who keep me going. God bless
So, I made a comment that they make false allegations. Many people have gone through this. Be careful to have boundaries.
@@coreyanderson1457 one can have all the boundaries they like… doesn’t stop narcs from lying their way through, as to avoid accountability or taking responsibility for their actions and or words. Sad truth. Take care
You are spot on! One thing that I have noticed when dealing with my Narc sister is that when she is going to start her narc behavior, her voice changes. She isn’t yelling nor raging her voice goes very calm and her style of communication flips into calculated words and body language that resembles a predator going for their prey. She is a covert narc as she is love and light to the world but behind closed doors it’s another reality. This flip of the switch in behavior has really creeped me out.
Thank you thank you thank you! You have just perfectly described a former long term close friend. I should have seen all this from day one, but I hung in there for many years, thinking the problem was me. So glad I no longer have this person in my life.
This is spot on. It took me a few months after our split for me to figure out that my ex was a covert narcissist. I've dated a narcissist before so I noticed some of the traits but I didn't realize there is a different type of narcissist until my recent ex. I'm still really struggling It's been 8 months since the initial split but I was hoovered up until 4 months ago when I realized that in the pit of my stomach that he did indeed cheat and find another supply while we were together I just couldn't catch him because he is so good at hiding it. He's a former Marine and hid behind his" injury" and "PTSD". Everyone thinks he's a savior, so when I would tell people about his abusive behavior no one believed me and it was hard. I'm still really struggling with the damage he caused.
I'm so glad you did the video about narcissistic friends...
I share part of a house rental with another woman and she is a overtly and covertly narcissistic.
Saving up my $$$ to get the heck out of here.
Doing my best to not interact with them other than cordiality, hello when in the common areas of kitchen. It seems by doing so is escalating their meaness and sometimes their anger and then they revert to blaming and yelling.
If I'm fixing a meal in the kitchen and she starts her demeaning and yelling... I put my ear phones in from cell phone and ignore them till I'm finished preparing my meal and bring it to my room to eat. Terrible way to live...needing to avoid them while paying rent to live here.
Keep it to yourself that you going to move they think you are trying to do them something ecerytime you make a move.
💜love your content and can definitely relate to this video in many ways. Healing one day at a time and you’ve been a helping part of my process, so thank you! ✨
Totally relate - thank you for sharing
Thank you for this
Yes. He fit Every symptom you addressed.
I'm definitely with a covert narc, he didn't pass his driving test so he shuts himself off in the bedroom and just didn't talk to me or even want to eat plus didn't want to interact with with own child, but I didn't feed what he wanted. But I know I'm in a toxic relationship. Can't wait for it to be other.
Maybe he was depressed.
Is it possible to be both? My mum was always quite flamboyant virtually and very outgoing, she could talk to anybody about anything and was always the centre of attention when we had guests, meanwhile, I was sit or stood there quietly because she's take over the conversation. If I tried to chime in if I had something to say I'd be shut down by being interrupted by her or yelled at for interrupting and being called rude because she hadn't finished talking. I was like ay? I was just contributing to the convo and if I had "waited until they were finished talking "the subject would've been changed. Unfortunately I was guilted into becoming her carer when she became disabled. She said she couldn't cope and needed me to do everything now and take over. Of course now that all the chores were my responsibility, I could now be blamed for EVERYTHING that went wrong or not how she liked it.
Then later on after some bad shit happened she'd always complain about how she was treated badly by people, she said she was abused by parents, partners and treated badly by cowprkers and so called friends and family members. She'd use this to make me feel guilty if I did something she didn't like. She'd compare me to all of her abusers and even call me abusive. She has recently started telling me I am the worst abuser she has ever had.
I'm not going to lie and say I'm not a narcissist myself but no way am I doing anything like this deliberately. If I upset her it's not intentional. It's just that I'm not the perfect slave around the house that she wants. She said I was deliberately not doing things right to piss her off. I was mentally abusing her apparently because I know she was abused and I know she has OCD but I'm naturally lazier and messier than she is. She would take my lack of tidiness to mean I'm doing it deliberately because I know the messes stress her out. Not true. I have my own mental health issues undiagnosed but I have a legit slight phobia of tidying and cleaning. I try my best but I can't keep up the habit and do it every day as much she wants
Why are they so many though? It’s mind blowing to think there are so many out there that operate under this mindset. Something in the water?! I don’t get it.
Great video ❤️🙏🏻❤️
pure hell...and this coming from a self aware overt...this type will make even a narcissist cut his wrist😂!! runnnnn! its the victim part they play that is so underrated/deadly
It's too hard to find your tribe...... Most victim's are isolated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thanks
I can relate thank you for your talks
My friends wife is like this. I just call her right out on the spot when she goes into passive aggressive mode or victim mode. She just looks at me with a slight glare. It’s funny because I have had her number a long time ago. And just recently I called her right out & said she’s a fake !
Probably won’t hear from her again- good riddance!
So eye opening😳
My ex girlfriend has 2 dead husbands by age 40 one drank himself to death the other died of a brain tumour i just found out she cheated on his wedding night she cheated on me and told him i was abusive
awesome channel!
Thank you for sharing your story. My name is Shannon. Baby steps for now... thank you though.
I think one of my ex's was a combination of covert and overt
It's so strange because sometimes I feel like I was the narcissist. Some of the things you describe makes me wonder. I have to keep reminding myself of the things that were done by the real narcissist but it sometimes gets really confusing.
It wasn’t you bc they never take accountability. It was him projecting his energy to an empath. Till we don’t respond.
@@DrJMW EXACTLY!
My story
Pretty sure this is my former spouse
Do they tend to punish you by not speaking to you?
Nope that would be nice if they did.
Is a Covert Narcissist always ‘a playing the victim type)? This is one part that doesn’t resonate with my experience.
He killed me inside.
I have been around a covert narcissist but was not a victim of hers but her family that she was closest to did because they believed she was in need of help I didn't see her that way I thought she was full of shit, and using her family so she wouldn't need to be independents.