Shameful Core of Covert Narcissist: Inferior Vulnerability Compensated
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- Опубліковано 18 бер 2023
- Shame is a powerful, defining dynamic in vulnerable, fragile, shy, covert narcissism. Not so in the grandiose-overt variant. Time to redefine pathological narcissism and Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)?
LITERATURE
1. Shame and its relationship to early narcissistic developments
F Broucek
International journal of psycho-analysis (1982).International Journal of Psychoanalysis ,63():369-378
2. Andrew P. Morrison (1983) Shame, Ideal Self, and Narcissism, Contemporary Psychoanalysis, 19:2, 295-318, DOI: 10.1080/00107530.1983.10746610
3. Wurmser, L. (1987). Shame: The veiled companion of narcissism. In D. L. Nathanson (Ed.), The many faces of shame (pp. 64-92). The Guilford Press.
Morrison, A. P., & Stolorow, R. D. (1997). Shame, narcissism, and intersubjectivity. In M. R. Lansky & A. P. Morrison (Eds.), The widening scope of shame (pp. 63-87). Analytic Press.
4. Gramzow, R., & Tangney, J. P. (1992). Proneness to Shame and the Narcissistic Personality. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 18(3), 369-376. doi.org/10.1177/0146167292183014
5. Pincus AL, Ansell EB, Pimentel CA, Cain NM, Wright AGC, Levy KN. Initial construction and validation of the Pathological Narcissism Inventory. Psychol Assess. 2009 Sep;21(3):365-379. doi: 10.1037/a0016530. PMID: 19719348.
6. Cain NM, Pincus AL, Ansell EB. Narcissism at the crossroads: phenotypic description of pathological narcissism across clinical theory, social/personality psychology, and psychiatric diagnosis. Clin Psychol Rev. 2008 Apr;28(4):638-56. doi: 10.1016/j.cpr.2007.09.006. Epub 2007 Oct 2. PMID: 18029072.
7. Kathrin Ritter, Aline Vater, Nicolas Rüsch, Michela Schröder-Abé, Astrid Schütz, Thomas Fydrich, Claas-Hinrich Lammers, Stefan Roepke,
Shame in patients with narcissistic personality disorder,
Psychiatry Research, Volume 215, Issue 2, 2014, Pages 429-437,
doi.org/10.1016/j.psychres.20...
8. Hibbard, S. (1992). Narcissism, shame, masochism, and object relations: An exploratory correlational study. Psychoanalytic Psychology, 9(4), 489-508. doi.org/10.1037/h0079392
9. Elena Bilevicius, Darren C. Neufeld, Alanna Single, Melody Foot, Michael Ellery, Matthew T. Keough, Edward A. Johnson,
Vulnerable narcissism and addiction: The mediating role of shame,
Addictive Behaviors, Volume 92, 2019, Pages 115-121,
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Find and Buy MOST of my BOOKS and eBOOKS in my Amazon Store: www.amazon.com/stores/page/60...
You are the absolute best on explaining narcissism 👍 because of your knowledge I was able to get to the bottom of my exes weird & cruel behaviour... Much appreciation 😊
Thank you for your lectures, Professor Vaknin
In public he is open, cheerful, funny..in private he is discounting, demeaning, shy..ish, stonewalling...and switches f4om one to the next in a blink...
I'm addicted to your videos I learn so much from them. I am truly grateful for the difference you make in education. ❤ Thank you for all you do it means a lot to the people helped so much by it.
I like how you laugh at yourself....and more importantly getting us to understand why, and what makes narcissists tick...very sad for all involved, (especially children) as this IS a mental health issue.
I ... struggle. I discovered that I aligned with NPD last year... at that point, my brother had just passed from alcoholism. I have come to realize that he aligns with BPD. I regret that I did not know then what I know now.
But in thinking about both he and I ... I agree with you, and I think, if Narcissism, Borderline and Hystrionic were like the RGB of a computer screen ... and the white is fully developed psychopaths, and the black is like a 0 value, or not registered at all... one could describe a candidate/client/subject by the 3 coordinates, and either FF to 00 in each category.
It's not a spectrum, like there is with autism.
It's more like a coordination because of the comorbidity. It isn't static; it shifts as stimulus shifts because it was formed in response to the environment, and it is still being informed by the environment.
You described a friend of mine so much that I thought you'd say his name.
This video should be written with real gold ink.
Thank you for your wisdom.
Shame is such a central and yet ignored element, there is really not much serious work on it on youtube. Please please please Sam, do more videos on how shame works and how to get out of its possession for the vulberable of us ❤
My housemate plays the victim, lies, manipulates, pretents to be nice and sweet, is needy, takes and takes as if entitled to other peoples things, is desperate to be liked, has no shame and tells us stuff or acts in in ways anyone else would be embarrassed to do, storms off if one of us asks her to be considerate (eg noise) she can't handle feedback or an alternative opinion. She always has a hareem of victims that she constantly builds because eventually people get fed up and leave her. She needs to maintain a feed. She has a rage this spikes out, it's like it's hidden but ready to appear anytime. She won't make decisions and looks to others to do that for her. The few decisions she does make are odd or inappropriate. She copies others identity, words, clothes, it's creepy and annoying, she is a grown adult so too old to wear the same things like a group of teenagers might. Her words and descriptions are weird, she is so passive aggressive. She tries to convince us that random people are her friends when they are just a neighbour she got a free thing from, from an app. She is not pretty but goes for the hottest guts 10 years younger and gets jealous when they don't like her. She is unrealistic and seems to focus on looks rather than personality or connection. She is intensely jealous. I could go on.. I am escaping soon, ,moving out.. I wonder if she is a covert and overt mix.
Covert, definitely. I have a friend that is EXACTLY this. She's infuriating, unaccountable and always in the throes of some dilemma. Speaks in roundabout unspecific ways to deflect any action or consequence, serial monogamist (or claims to be) but is thrown to the wayside when people see her for what she is. Be strong and safe because the smear campaign is next level.
My flatmate is 55 and has most of these undesirable traits. I started recording our conversations so he couldn't lie about what I may or may not of said in conversations. Has no agency ,full of shame and takes no accountability
Like you spoke about your housemate...it seems like you are the real narcissist here.
“she has no shame” … how is she a narc then?
She has psychopathic traits, definitely and overt narcisist. Just read what you've written down 😏. That kind of behaviour is not compensatory, simply abusive
I am so glad you are talking about shame. Thank you Professor Vaknin!
Time and time again I come back to your Channel and it is extremely helpful to Channel all these emotions so I am greatly helpful for you to make my heart bigger
Mind-blowing shifts in perspective. Thank you:)
Thank you! Interesting and will stroll through your suggested literature.
Ooof! Ok that explains A LOT. Thanks for helping to put things in perspective.
😮I have no words. I’m completely blown away😢
Thank you so much Dear Professor ❤
thankyou for your comprehensive lectures on NPD. Explaining the pathways and causes and tendencies not only protects victims of abuse but also opens up to the possibilities of compassion to those suffering from the coping mechanisms of their childhood traumas. thankyou.
I had an incident of putting my Narc through a very shameful incident she has gone into hiding and hates me even more .....she caused it on herself though I just reacted to her disrespect....hoping this is the final straw
Wow I did exactly what your saying
I also did that and he flipped.
I felt like a shell of who I used to be before I started dating her.. Now I’m free and feel like myself again after it’s over!
Thank you so much. This makes complete sense of what I experienced with my ex. It clarifies why certain things occurred in this relationship. It was very hurtful experience and yet I found my way to forgiveness toward him, yet I have no interest in experiencing him again.
Thank you I have watched and rewatched I feel much better
This realy is sad for the covert Narcissist .. My dad was one, and so was my last partner of 14 years. 😢.
I understand everything now 😌.
Because of this I will never judge anyone again. Through all my pain and heartache 💔 i still love them both because I know all of them personally.
I used to think like that until I realised they don’t deserve our love. It’s not ok to hurt people just because of their own inadequacies. Even if you break down they are are fine with seeing you down.
I no longer give love to a person like that, just remain indifferent
@@imaanhussain5198no. You must at speak of us as helpless tragedies, or (as in my case) a misunderstood, idiosyncratic genius ;)
So true. Very sad
Excellent, thank you!
My mother in law is a covert/vulnerable type, but her behavior has been so increasingly damaging and risky that had she not taken some extra insurance along the way to destroying us (her targeted scapegoat is my wife) when her first born daughter and third born only son “golden children” started to have personal problems that were increasingly difficult to project and deflect toward my wife and the collateral damage that our kids and myself had become, she would have been easily caught committing a few felonies and subjecting her to civil litigation. But the mental damage, which over a lifetime seems like the definition of intentional infliction of emotional distress to me, was so crippling that my wife could not manage the simplest tasks for years after the most overt actions taken against us. Of course since her father is also your basic overt narcissist, there was the impression that he was behind any of the obvious resulting effects of living in that family.
The shame issue is bizarre with both of them and at certain points in time they both broke down and admitted everything we knew was true. Her father the overt would break down in tears on a daily basis by the afternoon’s work day to his daughter - my wife -until the next morning after being around his wife for a few hours put him back on track with ruining us financially and placing everything we had helped build into the hands of the proven incompetent first born daughter’s husband (for an attempted second time after a decade of learning he is quite possibly a sociopath willing to do anything for money, without actually doing anything traditionally known to create it - such as work or show up for work).
As for the one who controlled all of this, her shame came out on Christmas Eve after being very sick for a couple of weeks. Sounds pretty standard.
Since I was in an acute health crisis when they pulled our health insurance it just exemplified how such events can show the vulnerability, how temporary that is, and how conditioned my wife was to not get things in writing or guaranteed in some way …. Who does that with their own parents?
Thank you for this video. Wow. Powerful info.
Dear Sam, I admire your work for more than 10 years. You helped me to identify a lot of patterns in mine and others behavior. Definitely much better than psychologists I met with. However I am diagnosed with Histrionic personality disorder and I totally project other cluster B characteristics. I think Histrionics are definitely affected by shame, but since you didn't mention histrionics in this video and in general histrionics are kind of left out breed of cluser B, is it some different way that the shame is affecting and is projected by histrionics? Because I feel that shame and guilt also play a role in this disorder. It would be amazing if you could talk to histrionics little more but anyway thank you for your incredible work for all these years.
When your dating profile lists everything you’re NOT, Including a narcissist….then you’re obviously EVERYTHING on your list. Lol. That was my ex’s dating profile on a dating site after I left. I sure wish I’d seen a profile write up by him prior to getting with him. That would have been the only red flag I needed. Unfortunately, I had to find out the hard way and endure his covert narcissistic abuse for several years before realizing this was going to hell in a hand basket, and learn about this type of abuse after the damage was done. Horrible people
yes, whatever they say they aren't and wouldn't do, is exactly what they are and are already doing.
@@hannahward4703 that’s funny. Yes, they list how they’re empathetic and all the categories you just expect people to have. Mine even discussed how he’s faithful and doesn’t want someone who cheats. Lol. They tell on themselves. If you have to say outright, the normal qualities you’d just expect the other person to have, then you’re simply covering up your own bad behaviors. They’re so crazy!
Diagnosed ex was on datingsites. He used every word he lacked and i told him.
He was an empatic man caring looking for his dreamwife and have fun with.
He had a new gf in a day. 😂😂😂
Poor thing was used a showhorse. He got her engagement ring the same month and she showed it on his profile.
Yea i saw it you so called charming man. It was bigger than mine and your scam had worked.
😂
@@neen9438 ha! They’re literally nuts! I wanted to throw up, reading my exes profile because it was describing the polar opposite of what he was!! I wish I could have told him how nauseating it was, but I was no contact. He used words he didn’t know the meaning of…sympathetic, empathetic, doesn’t cheat and doesn’t want a partner that does, either. 🤥🤔. The kicker was, he actually said he didn’t want someone who was a narcissist. Lol! Well that’s what they’re getting when they get you, buddy. 😵💫
Thank you Dr.Vaknin.
That is a great giggle, Sam. Contagious
Thank you for your astute insight
I chose the "compliant self" out of fear..I am in just 6 minutes worth, instead of the real self which was undermined and punished perfusely.
This is insightful, truthfully I am left wondering one thing. What about the baby seals?
I had observed the ongoing interaction of a man possessing the traits of vulnerable narcissism-apparently even his therapist alluded to him being a narcissist-with a man who was a bit narcissistic. Interestingly, the former was not only envious of the latter, but would insist of attempting to get him to understand his situation and not be so grandiose. This was interesting because, quite obviously, he desired the state the other man was in.
I know completely off topic. Sam would you do a clip on two borderlines in relationship , i am still emerging/ healing from the abyss of it , complete utter carnage😩 kind regards
Does this mean the treatment and perhaps the outcomes for Overt and Covert would be different? For example would cold therapy be effective for an Overt narcissist but too much for a covert narcissist? Or is a fact that covert and overt narcs often exsist in the same person depending on supply, mortification, etc? My observation of my covert ex was that I would often see him try to sort of "raise: his false self, make egotistical declarations, justify his awful behaviors but it seems to me that he even he never quite believed it. There was always a sadness and desperation behind his eyes. There seemed to be only a few moments in the 2 years I knew him that he was actually able to convince himself of the facade and seem genuinely confident.. usually after some external win. Even when he would occasionally yell "I am perfect", It seemed far more defiant and sad than confident.
All narcissists oscillate between types. Search my channel.
I was 50, when I dared to break through 😂 the shame barrier, but I still smoke myself to sleep.
That wine glass is very cool.
Your video is awesome, thank you so much.
I'm curious, which one is harder to handle, overt narcissist or covert narcissist?
IMO, covert.
I agree with Prof. Vaknin, covert, becouse you cant choice for yourself, - you have to find out firsth and then decide again.
Thanks for this video Prof Vaknin. I have a question- do these 2 categories of narcissism exist as separate from each other or can there be a continuum? Also, is there a possibility that a covert narcissist can show typical signs in close interpersonal relationships but acts grandiose infront of a imagined/real audience?
Search my channel.
Dr. Vaknin, in earlier videos I think I recall you suggesting that people with narcissistic style oscillate between the covert narcissism, collapsed narcissism, and grandiose states. Here you seem to suggest that these are so distinct they should perhaps not even be considered the same diagnosis (apologies if this is a misunderstanding of your position). Can you please clarify? Thank you, as a therapist I’m learning much from your content.
I suggest that all cluster B differential diagnoses are spurious. There should be a single clinical entity with different emphases or overlays at different times. But the overlays and emphases should not be mistakenly conflated.
You look so Handsome as always..Mr Vaknin....)
I keep expecting to see my ex commenting on one of these videos. She displays all the qualities described in them, but swears I have NPD. In retrospect it was a genius move because our focus was always on my issues, never having time or energy to discuss hers. It's shameful because I truly love her and would've done anything to be able to work thru them together. But she had to "win" at all cost even if it meant we both lost, fulfilling her prediction that I'd abandon her. Still breaks my heart years later.
She abandoned me oct 23 after 5 years together she came to California to be with me
She died 3 months later from pain medication overdose
My heart so twisted conflicted confused under the belief I blame myself
Is it possible to get rid of this persistent sense of shame, of “inner realization that something is wrong with you” ? Or it is a dead-end road?
Maybe it is if you dive into and feel it out with out trying to run away from it
I'm still with you! 😉😄
Professor Vaknin, do you have any videos talking about issues with the diagnostic criteria?
Yes.
@@samvaknin ought to have simply searched. Anyway, thanks
Sam please i want your answer. Is covert narcissist could be a malignant narcissist?
No.
‘Self-negation’ aptly describes it, they may behave in a way which is contrary to their normative ego, destroying their own defenses. It is a blunt forced and brutally wicked method of self destruction.
My ex is covert. Hes also an alcoholic and porn addict. Hes been drinking a 12 pack of old Milwaukie nightly for 43 years. I now understand his addictions are from the immense shame he has within.
It makes me so sad for him. Towards the end of our second chamce together i told him he waa a drunk loser. I feel so sad for him. Is there any help for him to deal with his shame.
Also, why do people with such deep shame, continue to do shameful things? Would'nt they want to get out of that cycle?
I would have done anything to help him. He always pushed me away.
I liked your longer hair.😊😮😅😂
Can you help me understand the differences between a sociopath and a psychopath? Are they really just one in the same?
No such thing as "sociopath" in clinical psychology. It is media hype, exactly like "empath".
If a person hurts other people, by lying cheating and discarding. and then admit to that person, that they feel guilt and shame, tell them sorry and that they take all the blame. And then go “no contact”. The person has a lifetime addiction to different drugs and sex, risk taking behaviour, prison and other symptoms of antisocial behaviour.
Why would he admit to shame and guilt and not just find a reason to blame the “victim” ore others - I don’t understand?
Prof. Vaknin thank you so much for sharing this brilliant analysis. I am addicted to your videos. I have a question, do covert and overt narcissists both live in their fantasy world and both of them have false self? or covert narcissism is more like BPD without fantasy world and false self ?
The former.
Which is more dangerous in relationship?
The grandiose overt narcissist or vulnerable narcissist?
Vulnerable. You don’t see them coming.
Dr. Professor Vaknin, can the narcissist's partner reparent the narcissist through empathic mirroring and reality testing in an effort to help ameliorate the narcissist's more disruptive and unsatisfactory behaviors?
Not really.
Have tried, can confirm it doesn't work lol. Dr Vaknin has some great videos on how even the most perfect 'mother' archetypal roleplay with a narcissist (intentional or unintentional) eventually leads to resentment and abuse. In my experience, the more unconditionally you love them, the more they start to mistrust you because they don't fundamentally believe such a thing is possible or real---so you must be a fraud, a manipulator, a bad person. They will then devalue and discard you. What they 'need' from you at the beginning (unconditional love and acceptance) is precisely what they later come to doubt. And once that doubt sets it, you're fucked lol.
gets a like after a first sentence. ❤
I know you’ve spoken about covert, overt, and I think collapses narcissist can be stages in the same person, but can you speak to what I think is a covert passive aggressive narcissist who presents himself as an overt in respect to posture. This narc is self deprecating and very passive aggressive and yet he can come off as an overt.
Have you not heard a word he said? Go back and listen again.
I was angry with my boyfriend, whom I believe is a narcissist, I inadvertently shamed him while making fun of him to an acquaintance of his. His friend informed him. My boyfriend called me. His voice was trembling, and he threatened to attack me. I broke up with him.
Sometimes we end up in the same club and two years since the breakup the ex boyfriend looks at me like he wants to kill me.
i prefer overt narcissists 😂 This victimhood of the overt sucks.
I do believe I have fully viewed your video collective and still I struggle to fully understand Shame; this has served to help me understand a full definition- best illustrated by the covert with out a doubt
Me: possible borderline spectrum; cptsd
What happened to your video "Why Trusting Banks is a Really Bad Idea"? It seems to be gone.
Look under Sam Vaknin’s Musings. It’s there.
It's here: ua-cam.com/users/vakninmusings
@@samvaknin Thank you.
are they awere of this dynamic?
They are aware of their behaviors. No one is aware of their own psychodynamics.
are they aware of the shame they constantlie feel? @@samvaknin
Sam , if narcissism can't be cured then why all this study, all this analisis?
For the victims.
Sobering Tone 😌
how do i cure myself of covert vulnerable narcissism?
You don't.
Go deep into the shame and feel it out. The only reason no one is getting better is cos they won’t go fearlessly into the shame and feel it out with out resistance . Severe emotional constipation .
Sam will say you don’t cos he is a narcissist who loves people being in pain . There is always hope
You manage it, you don’t cure it. It depends how old you are. If you’re young, you begin by living alone and secluding yourself as much as possible so as not to hurt others. That means that you need to stop socializing and dating. For the rest of your life. But, if you’re an older cover narc, that means that you have reached this secluded state through failure. No one wants you around. So embrace it. It’s your life. If you do go out into the world again, just know that you will continue to repel people who sense your desperation, or you will hurt them somehow. I would suggest getting a therapist and seeing them weekly to help keep you from going into a state of psychosis.
Oh and pray for help, healing and deliverance! I believe in miracles. I believe that there were several narcissists who healed and become saints through God’s grace. It isn’t easy to accept, but God has a plan for each of us, even those of us with personality disorders.
Off-topic for your video but I know someone selling their house 20 miles outside of Budapest it's a beautiful property with a large yard, let me know if you are interested! It is in the town of Dorog
covert narcisme are the only real narcisme
Why Professor of Finance now?
I left the field of psychology except for uploading videos. I still provide counselling, though.
@@samvaknin I'm sorry to hear that. I think the information in your videos is brilliant.
So, if someone cries at sad movies, even if they aren’t aware others will see them… are they still a narcissist?
So, narcissists don’t have something like an authentic, original, individuated self or the capacity to heal, but they do have real emotions and feelings that would seem like empathy, or just they are placing themselves into the characters in the movie? 🤔
Narcissists have no access to positive emotions and have only cold empathy. Their tears are self-pity. Great topic for a video.
Bro they're looking at & crashing tube
Do they actually EVER feel Shame??? I think No