About oversized rings from what I understand.: On a blueprinted engine,it is common to use .005" oversized rings and file them to fit.This is done because most ring sets are designed to be used with normal passenger car piston to wall clearances.When blueprinting even an out of the box crate motor to be used for racing,the builder will usually hone the cylinders so that the pistons fit real loose,and then the ring end gaps are too large,so slightly oversize rings are used and filed to get the correct end gap.As you may notice,most performance piston rings will come in oversized such as .005,or .035",or .065",this is to allow the engine build to file fit the rings,these rings are to be used in either standard{.005},or .030 or .060" over bored cylinders. I would say the pits are about .002 - .004 at the most.not really worth while doing anything unless you want to.You could hone out the pits will not matter for what you want if for. chart oversize cylinders. CYLINDER BORE DIAMETER........................ USE RING SIZE Std. to .010" ................................................STD .020" to .029" .............................................. .020" .030" to .039" .............................................. .030" .040" to .049" .............................................. .040" .060" to .069" .............................................. .060" .080" to .089" .............................................. .080" .100" to .109" .............................................. .100" .120" to .129" .............................................. .120"
Just saw your response 1000 years later.... sorry about that.. Engine has been running on a test stand and sounds fabulous- great throttle response, clean exhaust I'm very pleased with it especially with some pitting in the cylinders but compression test shows 150/165 psi so I think it's gonna be a good Engine 👍 Thanks for the chart!! I ended up going with the recommended rings for those .030 Pistons in there.... thanks agian! 😊
Bore it .040 and see if it cleans up . There is .040 pistons available. If it still doesn't clean up, then go to .060. you won't have any heating problems. That's not going to cause heating problems. you can easily take a 340 to .060 over. Boring a block over has nothing to do with heating problems, it has everything to do with cylinder wall stability. Unless you plan on hitting this thing with boats loads of NOS or a high boost application you'll have nothing to worry about. If you put it together like that it will run just fine but it may use a little oil or have a little blow by and that rough surface isn't help the ring last any longer. The deck surface looks pretty bad and the main bearing surface too. The spend the money and get it fully machined, that way your block will be pristine.
I would run it and I will tell you why. An old time mechanic told me about overhauling an International truck engine during WW2. This engine had been left outdoors with the head off and the cylinders were pitted but he could not get pistons for it. So he honed the cylinders and put it together with new rings. He said it burned oil for the first 1000 miles and then settled down and ran like any other motor. Several years later he had it apart and found the pits all filled level with carbon and polished smooth. So, for a regular transportation or street engine I would run it. If you were building a perfect racing engine it might be different.
that "cornbinder" may have had full skirted pistons over the "slipper" ones in modern cars (they are cut at the bottom to slip over the crank counterweights at BDC while old pistons looked like a coffee or soup can) and thicker than modern piston rings that dig in enough to leave a ridge at the top of the cylinder wall. that said, for a street engine I too recommend a hand hone (not with the ol' toilet brush shaped classic but the bladed type with new blades) and then slap together a short block with crank, rods, and ringed slugs then put on the heads and do a leakdown test. its less effort than doing a complete engine, but it will probably be less of a gamble than "build it and hope".
@@frankrizzo3922 Look at all the 2 stroke engines with big holes in the cylinders. If the rust spots are not big enough to snag the rings it should be ok.
Long story short, I had this happen to me In a 69 gto. I didn't have the money back then ( 1979), so I put the heads back on and although it used oil, it ran fine.
That thing sat on it's end for a long long time, outside. What I am more worried is the pitting on the deck surface. I'd have a machine shop look it over. If the pistons are new maybe have the machine shop try to hone it for the pistons, with a Mopar honing plate. Or hell do it there with a dingle ball and see what happens. A guy I work with just did a freshen up with stock used pistons, from another 460. A machine shop was involved. Anyway he started it and pow!! Metal in the pan, engine locked up solid.
I would suggest pressure testing the block. See if #7 leaks where the concentration of rust is. The block should be decked. The deck looks bad between #2 and #4 cylinders. Compromised in other areas. Remember to install new dowl pins in the deck. See if the block was bored to the correct size for your new pistons. What rings are you using, cast or Molly? I wish you all the best with your 340. Remember to pull the oil galley plugs and re wash. I just subscribed to your channel. Take care, Ed
Yup.. I was thinking samething .... I've measured .065" of clearance between deck and top of piston I'm going to use... so maybe 1/2 of that will clean the deck up... 🤔 hope so.......
The rings we eventually clean them up is what a shop told me but I never started it but I think I'm going to and mine you could see it but couldn't really feel it
Appreciate your input.. yea I think your right... I'm going to run it and let it eat! It's gonna do what it's gonna do and I'll let you guys know! Thanks sir... good luck with yours.. 😉
In may opinion. the pitting occurred due to the way the dust settling in the bore,from the way it was sitting.dust draws moisture,then rust happens. what you are calling the worst looks like it is below where the rings ride,that will be alright.The other pitting is not any worse then some ridges that I have seen at the top that would brake a ring. Since you honed it check all ring gaps. Just have a straight bore ,good cross hatch and it will be ok. Be sure to use a break in oil. your bore is at 30 over that block can go a long way.the pits don't look that deep. you may have to ruff up the deck to get a good head gasket seal. note: Replacement Rings:-Furnished in standard and .005", and oversize 010", .020", .030" oversize. An oversize ring even when file cut on a standard piston in a worn oversize bore is apt to break the ring land because it isn't fully in position (deep enough into the ring land) and creates high stress on the Land. Your bore is more than likely straight.
Bore it another 030 and sell the pistons you already have. I had a 340 that was pitted a little and 060 didn't get it all, but it ran good after the rebuild.
Because the lifter bores are probably pitted, too, I'd be tempted to pop the soft plugs and cam bearings out of it and use a battery charger and a big tank, like they show on UA-cam, and derust the block for a few days. Then I'd reassemble it with your new SP pistons, and send it.
Years ago my machinist found pits in my bores. He said it was from moisture between the rings. He talked me into finding another block. - it was a 318, so easy. BUT, 340 blocks are harder to find. - I say otherwise , if the bores are true, Run it. - - and tear down and inspect those SpeedMaster heads before running them. Found my guides were a little tight and valve job could use improvement. Good Luck.
I’ve ran small block Chevrolets WAY worse than that with never a issue. The engine in my truck right now is a .040 bore 400 SBC boy you should see the cylinders 😂😂. It had a HELL of a ring ridge and bad pitting in 2/6/8 cylinders
I think if it worries you, it should be sleeved, and definatly decked. Line bore tbe mains, and "Dandy" Dick Landy would cut the lifter galley out, cut it in half, re alighn the lifter bores to 100 degrees and weld it back in. (Straightens the pushrod geometry) Then you will have an engine ready for 12,000 rpm! Dependably! Dont forget the main girdle, knife edge the crank, and a good windage tray oil pan from Ed Hhamburger. Try and find a set of "X" or "J" head castings. Aluminum on iron promotes electrollisis. Just sayin. My friend built a 383 chevy same time I buillt my 340, 30 years ago, mine still wants to pull the world in two, his wont pull a greazy string out of a cat's....well, it's tired.
After 55 years of doing this I've had some pitted cylinders those are pitted on the thrust side from the explosion you know pushing that direction pushing the Piston that direction I would run a hone through it and a ball deglazer and clean it up really good check your ring Gap put new rings in it check your piston clearance and I wouldn't worry too much about it there isn't a lot there that it's going to blast past it and then once the Rings wear into the cylinder it should improve but it isn't going to be a lot of blow by or smoke or anything I've ran them before new rings and a slant six with pitted cylinders it sat on the side and I honed the hell out of it and it ran fine when I sold the car I ran into the guy later they ran that motor 15,000 miles without a problem and then sold the car so I wouldn't worry too much about it unless you got something that you can catch your fingernail on or lay a dime in it I wouldn't sweat it
@@frankrizzo3922 also I forgot to say as you may have been told or seen But standard Rings a new set of standard Rings will handle up to .009 cylinder wear
I fool around with Ford tractors. You should see some of the stuff I let go in those engines and they usually work mint. But they are 6:1 and run at 2400RPM. For the price of a set of gaskets Id give it a whirl. But thats just me.
Look into abradable piston coatings. You can have the block honed and coat the pistons to make up the difference. Line2Line is one company put there are others.
Good option for worst case... but I'm gonna run it and let it eat.. I think it's gonna work itself out... might just be a good loose nitrous motor... 😆
Mine is a 1970 340 it is 40 over and is fine. The only problem I have is in the hot weather sitting idling in traffic. Going down the road in 95' heat it stays at 185' The problem in traffic is probably due to having no shroud and a very slow fan speed because the fan pulley is too big but that's going to be fixed.
Thats a horrible idea ,listen either bore 60 over and if its still bad ,put sleeves in it ! Running it as is will just chew up the rings and possibly the new pistons up!!!
Run some good cleaner in there after you break her in and break her in with some good royal purple that stuff will clean the engine block like no other 👌
What about pitted cylinder block surface ,someone told me to cover with JB Welding 🤔 is it advisable?or would it interfere with the head gasket mating .
I'd say it be difficult to get it all perfect enuf to seal the head gasket... id be afraid of it failing on me and all the tear down work agian... deck the block is best.. atleast just to clean things up for good seal... 👍
The question to me isn't will it work but why would you try when 318s are all over the place, yea a slightly bigger bore other than that a 318 is the same However no worry on a slight bit over a 4.00 bore 340 if you had to rebore it Bottom line there is a lot of power from correct bore and hone in fact that's where the start to a happy free reving powerful long lasting motor comes from
Yea I like 318s to! I still have the one came outta my truck.... But in this case the money is tied up in this 340 and with all the parts that came with it etc is my problem.... I think the bore was ok but after sitting for 20 years didn't do it any good, moisture got in there.. be another $1000 to bore n new pistons agian... well I'm gonna put it together like it is and let it eat... we'll see what it does... maybe the rings will smooth it out lil more.... just wish I could have better noticed the pitted cylinders in that dark garage when I saw it ... but I didn't...
Absolutely do not put this engine together. This comment may come way too late, and I do not mean to be critical, I’m just answering the question :) Not only will that pitting lead to excessive compression loss and oil consumption, but it will knock the surface off the rings in short order. Thanks for posting and it’s an interesting conversation I just subscribed as well
that block needs alot of work the potential for failure is high you got pitting on the deck surfaces as well... you can sleeve it but the heads might not seal the reality or block porosity is there as well if the pitting is surface than you can sleeve and deck and oring the heads however if it is internal water jacketing pitting that block is done for
Stop! That Block must be bored oversized. PERIOD! When they do it have them use a Bore Plate when they do it. But you need to stop trying to og the cheap route and try removing the pitting in the block by just honing it. I've been building engines for over 55+ years. All you're doing is post poning the inevitable. Sorry to give you such bad news. I realize you ant to keep the Forged piston and parts that you have. But you need to have it bored to .060. If you run it as it is your rings ill not seat correctly and it will blow smoke and have a lot of blowby.
About oversized rings from what I understand.: On a blueprinted engine,it is common to use .005" oversized rings and file them to fit.This is done because most ring sets are designed to be used with normal passenger car piston to wall clearances.When blueprinting even an out of the box crate motor to be used for racing,the builder will usually hone the cylinders so that the pistons fit real loose,and then the ring end gaps are too large,so slightly oversize rings are used and filed to get
the correct end gap.As you may notice,most performance piston rings will come in oversized such as .005,or .035",or .065",this is to allow the engine build to file fit the rings,these rings are to be used in either standard{.005},or .030 or .060" over bored cylinders. I would say the pits are about .002 - .004 at the most.not really worth while doing anything unless you want to.You could hone out the pits will not matter for what you want if for. chart oversize cylinders.
CYLINDER BORE DIAMETER........................ USE RING SIZE
Std. to .010" ................................................STD
.020" to .029" .............................................. .020"
.030" to .039" .............................................. .030"
.040" to .049" .............................................. .040"
.060" to .069" .............................................. .060"
.080" to .089" .............................................. .080"
.100" to .109" .............................................. .100"
.120" to .129" .............................................. .120"
Just saw your response 1000 years later.... sorry about that..
Engine has been running on a test stand and sounds fabulous- great throttle response, clean exhaust I'm very pleased with it especially with some pitting in the cylinders but compression test shows 150/165 psi so I think it's gonna be a good Engine 👍
Thanks for the chart!! I ended up going with the recommended rings for those .030 Pistons in there.... thanks agian! 😊
Bore it .040 and see if it cleans up . There is .040 pistons available. If it still doesn't clean up, then go to .060. you won't have any heating problems. That's not going to cause heating problems. you can easily take a 340 to .060 over. Boring a block over has nothing to do with heating problems, it has everything to do with cylinder wall stability. Unless you plan on hitting this thing with boats loads of NOS or a high boost application you'll have nothing to worry about. If you put it together like that it will run just fine but it may use a little oil or have a little blow by and that rough surface isn't help the ring last any longer. The deck surface looks pretty bad and the main bearing surface too. The spend the money and get it fully machined, that way your block will be pristine.
Great video brother! Hope to get to know you and see more!
I would run it and I will tell you why.
An old time mechanic told me about overhauling an International truck engine during WW2. This engine had been left outdoors with the head off and the cylinders were pitted but he could not get pistons for it. So he honed the cylinders and put it together with new rings. He said it burned oil for the first 1000 miles and then settled down and ran like any other motor. Several years later he had it apart and found the pits all filled level with carbon and polished smooth.
So, for a regular transportation or street engine I would run it. If you were building a perfect racing engine it might be different.
I'm encouraged by reading this! Thank-you!!
that "cornbinder" may have had full skirted pistons over the "slipper" ones in modern cars (they are cut at the bottom to slip over the crank counterweights at BDC while old pistons looked like a coffee or soup can) and thicker than modern piston rings that dig in enough to leave a ridge at the top of the cylinder wall.
that said, for a street engine I too recommend a hand hone (not with the ol' toilet brush shaped classic but the bladed type with new blades) and then slap together a short block with crank, rods, and ringed slugs then put on the heads and do a leakdown test. its less effort than doing a complete engine, but it will probably be less of a gamble than "build it and hope".
@@frankrizzo3922 Look at all the 2 stroke engines with big holes in the cylinders. If the rust spots are not big enough to snag the rings it should be ok.
I doubt any 340 owner would plan a "regular" build.
Long story short, I had this happen to me In a 69 gto. I didn't have the money back then ( 1979), so I put the heads back on and although it used oil, it ran fine.
That thing sat on it's end for a long long time, outside. What I am more worried is the pitting on the deck surface. I'd have a machine shop look it over. If the pistons are new maybe have the machine shop try to hone it for the pistons, with a Mopar honing plate. Or hell do it there with a dingle ball and see what happens. A guy I work with just did a freshen up with stock used pistons, from another 460. A machine shop was involved. Anyway he started it and pow!! Metal in the pan, engine locked up solid.
I would suggest pressure testing the block.
See if #7 leaks where the concentration of rust is.
The block should be decked.
The deck looks bad between #2 and #4 cylinders.
Compromised in other areas.
Remember to install new dowl pins in the deck.
See if the block was bored to the correct size for your new pistons.
What rings are you using, cast or Molly?
I wish you all the best with your 340.
Remember to pull the oil galley plugs and re wash.
I just subscribed to your channel.
Take care, Ed
Yup.. I was thinking samething .... I've measured .065" of clearance between deck and top of piston I'm going to use... so maybe 1/2 of that will clean the deck up... 🤔 hope so.......
Thankyou sir! & great advice btw!
The rings we eventually clean them up is what a shop told me but I never started it but I think I'm going to and mine you could see it but couldn't really feel it
Appreciate your input.. yea I think your right... I'm going to run it and let it eat! It's gonna do what it's gonna do and I'll let you guys know! Thanks sir... good luck with yours.. 😉
Maybe you can post a short video of the engine running. Just curious. Thanks
In may opinion. the pitting occurred due to the way the dust settling in the bore,from the way it was sitting.dust draws moisture,then rust happens. what you are calling the worst looks like it is below where the rings ride,that will be alright.The other pitting is not any worse then some ridges that I have seen at the top that would brake a ring. Since you honed it check all ring gaps. Just have a straight bore ,good cross hatch and it will be ok. Be sure to use a break in oil. your bore is at 30 over that block can go a long way.the pits don't look that deep. you may have to ruff up the deck to get a good head gasket seal. note: Replacement Rings:-Furnished in standard and
.005", and oversize 010", .020", .030" oversize. An oversize ring even when file cut on a standard piston in a worn oversize bore is apt to break the ring land because it isn't fully in position (deep enough into the ring land) and creates high stress on the Land. Your bore is more than likely straight.
Bore it another 030 and sell the pistons you already have.
I had a 340 that was pitted a little and 060 didn't get it all, but it ran good after the rebuild.
Because the lifter bores are probably pitted, too, I'd be tempted to pop the soft plugs and cam bearings out of it and use a battery charger and a big tank, like they show on UA-cam, and derust the block for a few days. Then I'd reassemble it with your new SP pistons, and send it.
Surprise to me was lifter bores are actually pretty good... but thanks for your input! 🙂
It will work fine just use cast rings and put restore oil additive on cylinder walls for break in
Years ago my machinist found pits in my bores. He said it was from moisture between the rings.
He talked me into finding another block. - it was a 318, so easy.
BUT, 340 blocks are harder to find.
- I say otherwise , if the bores are true, Run it. -
- and tear down and inspect those SpeedMaster heads before running them. Found my guides were a little tight and valve job could use improvement.
Good Luck.
Thankyou sir! I'm taking your advice and gonna run it! Yes machine shop will check those speedmaster heads first... you are correct! 😊
Thank-you.... and yes those heads are definitely going to my machinist...
I’ve ran small block Chevrolets WAY worse than that with never a issue. The engine in my truck right now is a .040 bore 400 SBC boy you should see the cylinders 😂😂. It had a HELL of a ring ridge and bad pitting in 2/6/8 cylinders
I think if it worries you, it should be sleeved, and definatly decked. Line bore tbe mains, and "Dandy" Dick Landy would cut the lifter galley out, cut it in half, re alighn the lifter bores to 100 degrees and weld it back in. (Straightens the pushrod geometry) Then you will have an engine ready for 12,000 rpm! Dependably! Dont forget the main girdle, knife edge the crank, and a good windage tray oil pan from Ed Hhamburger. Try and find a set of "X" or "J" head castings. Aluminum on iron promotes electrollisis. Just sayin. My friend built a 383 chevy same time I buillt my 340, 30 years ago, mine still wants to pull the world in two, his wont pull a greazy string out of a cat's....well, it's tired.
A greasy string out of 😂😂😂
After 55 years of doing this I've had some pitted cylinders those are pitted on the thrust side from the explosion you know pushing that direction pushing the Piston that direction I would run a hone through it and a ball deglazer and clean it up really good check your ring Gap put new rings in it check your piston clearance and I wouldn't worry too much about it there isn't a lot there that it's going to blast past it and then once the Rings wear into the cylinder it should improve but it isn't going to be a lot of blow by or smoke or anything I've ran them before new rings and a slant six with pitted cylinders it sat on the side and I honed the hell out of it and it ran fine when I sold the car I ran into the guy later they ran that motor 15,000 miles without a problem and then sold the car so I wouldn't worry too much about it unless you got something that you can catch your fingernail on or lay a dime in it I wouldn't sweat it
I got to watch The Voice Text because it messes up my technical advice so I had to go back and re-edit it
Yup, I'm going to assemble it next couple weeks and go with it! I believe your right!
@@frankrizzo3922 also I forgot to say as you may have been told or seen But standard Rings a new set of standard Rings will handle up to .009 cylinder wear
I fool around with Ford tractors. You should see some of the stuff I let go in those engines and they usually work mint. But they are 6:1 and run at 2400RPM. For the price of a set of gaskets Id give it a whirl. But thats just me.
Look into abradable piston coatings. You can have the block honed and coat the pistons to make up the difference. Line2Line is one company put there are others.
Thanks for your input... I may have to do that....
Good option for worst case... but I'm gonna run it and let it eat.. I think it's gonna work itself out... might just be a good loose nitrous motor... 😆
My neighbor had a 340 block with the same thing
I have a set of 69 x heads and a 340 steel crank lying around for 30 plus years now
Go to Uncle Tony's Garage and ask him. He'd say run it.
I'll bet he would! But it needs decked lil bit.... after that let it eat!
It’s fine.
...or bore to .040 over just in case...get a set of 10:1 forged pistons and breathe easy...
8 bore sleeves, deck it too
Mine is a 1970 340 it is 40 over and is fine. The only problem I have is in the hot weather sitting idling in traffic. Going down the road in 95' heat it stays at 185' The problem in traffic is probably due to having no shroud and a very slow fan speed because the fan pulley is too big but that's going to be fixed.
Okay well thanks for your reply... fan shroud makes big difference.. I run 160° thermostats ... that seems to help in Hot weather... thanks agian! 😊
@@frankrizzo3922 No problem Frank glad I could help :)
Go with it
oil consumption will be a problem. been there and done it.
Send it!
Assemble it and run it
Yes sir, that's what I'm gonna do... and let it eat as they say..... thanks... 😊
Thats a horrible idea ,listen either bore 60 over and if its still bad ,put sleeves in it ! Running it as is will just chew up the rings and possibly the new pistons up!!!
I'm more concerned with the pits between the 2 cylinders so I would deck it and run it.
Absolutely your right... that what I'm doin... deck it and run! Thanks!
Run some good cleaner in there after you break her in and break her in with some good royal purple that stuff will clean the engine block like no other 👌
Wondering how the 340 engine work out for you?
It's not ideal but I would run it i had a 340 with some similar pitting and it ran really good.
I'm happy to hear that.... I'm encouraged!
I'd run it. May burn some oil during break in. 8000 miles it will clean itself up
I'm gonna!! Let it eat... it be alright 👍
I would have it bored 40over and buymew pistons just to be safe
Run it!
Frank you have to bore that block out . Rings will not seal. Poss. cast iron rings might seal after running many miles.
What about pitted cylinder block surface ,someone told me to cover with JB Welding 🤔 is it advisable?or would it interfere with the head gasket mating .
I'd say it be difficult to get it all perfect enuf to seal the head gasket... id be afraid of it failing on me and all the tear down work agian... deck the block is best.. atleast just to clean things up for good seal... 👍
How about running may be 10 oversized ring 20.
Man up go 30 over and be done with it and be sure 💯 %
Wait till you check the deck for flatness, or lifter valley for cracks. Looks like scrap iron to me.
Clean the rust an dirt off it an try it probably fine
The question to me isn't will it work but why would you try when 318s are all over the place, yea a slightly bigger bore other than that a 318 is the same
However no worry on a slight bit over a 4.00 bore 340 if you had to rebore it
Bottom line there is a lot of power from correct bore and hone in fact that's where the start to a happy free reving powerful long lasting motor comes from
Yea I like 318s to! I still have the one came outta my truck.... But in this case the money is tied up in this 340 and with all the parts that came with it etc is my problem.... I think the bore was ok but after sitting for 20 years didn't do it any good, moisture got in there.. be another $1000 to bore n new pistons agian... well I'm gonna put it together like it is and let it eat... we'll see what it does... maybe the rings will smooth it out lil more.... just wish I could have better noticed the pitted cylinders in that dark garage when I saw it ... but I didn't...
Absolutely do not put this engine together. This comment may come way too late, and I do not mean to be critical, I’m just answering the question :)
Not only will that pitting lead to excessive compression loss and oil consumption, but it will knock the surface off the rings in short order.
Thanks for posting and it’s an interesting conversation I just subscribed as well
Better sort out lifter bores...
Run it..mite smoke for a week or so..itll be fine...
Time for a boring job!!! Put the block in a tank and leave it there for 5 days. Take it out clean it up and punch each cylinder 30 thou.
5 days! Lol.
that block needs alot of work the potential for failure is high you got pitting on the deck surfaces as well... you can sleeve it but the heads might not seal the reality or block porosity is there as well if the pitting is surface than you can sleeve and deck and oring the heads however if it is internal water jacketing pitting that block is done for
Bore it. I had to take my last 283 Chevy from .060 to .080 to clean it up, and ease my mind. Your gonna have to deck it also.
Hi Frank, unfortunately that 340 block is ruined. Give it Uncle Tony, he works with rotted junk.
Stop! That Block must be bored oversized. PERIOD! When they do it have them use a Bore Plate when they do it. But you need to stop trying to og the cheap route and try removing the pitting in the block by just honing it. I've been building engines for over 55+ years. All you're doing is post poning the inevitable. Sorry to give you such bad news. I realize you ant to keep the Forged piston and parts that you have. But you need to have it bored to .060. If you run it as it is your rings ill not seat correctly and it will blow smoke and have a lot of blowby.