Your First Engine Job - Honing For Crosshatch And Choosing The Right Stones For Your Rings
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- Опубліковано 12 лют 2023
- The cylinder walls in our 4.0 Jeep engine are straight and clean enough to keep them standard bore, but they still need to be honed in preparation for the new pistons and rings
Here's a rundown on the different ring types and the best grit stones to use on them.
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Yup! At 14.40 I installed the hone with one of the stones flipped. It happens. Lesson here is don't allow yourself to be distracted (By doing things like making video....) while you should be focusing on your work.
I had to rewind to make sure I saw that right, and then I couldn't stop twitching.
Nobody's perfect Tony.
We're all the same. Human, fallible and flawed.
I saw that! thanks
Could that mess anything up?
I was just thinking you really dodged a bullet there - because for some reason, it didn't seem to mess up the bore finish as far as the camera shows. Sometimes, it's better to be lucky than good - but it's always best to be both. Cheers, Tony. 👍
At least you caught it! Imagine uploading that and having everyone tell you your mistake. They probably will anyway. :P I doubt that aluminum hone (I imagine it's aluminum) was able to overpowered the steel sleeves in there. If anything you just ground the hone down a bit with your crosshatch, lol.
Scratches through the dark spots to determine “low spot” or “rust discoloration”-that by itself makes this video valuable. Nice. 😎
That's for extra cross hatch. Old man's trick
I remember in the mid-90s when my dad rebuilt the 3-cyl on his Geo Metro that he'd been commuting in. I don't remember how many miles it had on it but he made it a point to move crap out of the garage and make room to back that thing in there, and I watched as he took it all down and honed it out and got it running again. Then he sold it. That was the first time I saw an engine get honed, as an 8-9yo kid.
EDIT: I also remember one time he picked up the back of that car with just his hands, maybe 2-3 years before the engine rebuild, and I was amazed! My dad was Superman! RIP dad, I wish your two granddaughters could've known you the way I do.
Rip bro
I feel you there I wish my dad got to meet my sons
The video{s} that Lake Speed JR did about advanced thin rings and honing techniques is really so insightful. We've really come a long way since the old days of the gas station mechanic dingleberry deglaze and new ring job. The bore surface finish could be worth up to 50hp or more as it relates to ring seal. In the old days everyone thought it was the camshaft that made all the power, and then the gasflow concept came in and we devoted more attention to cylinder heads and porting, now there are so many aspects of the engine that can make and break power that we really have to look at things in a holistic way and not lose sight of how things work in the grand scheme.
Having an holistic view on things in general is so rare, but important these days.
Agreed. Piston rings are the greatest friction source in an engine. Reducing friction, or increasing cylinder sealing at the same friction, is free HP and efficiency. Well, not free - sometimes it costs a lot of money for such precision.
Always used cast rings in everything I've built, and finished off with 120 stones. Worked for me. I used kerosene, very slightly oilier than gas, and doesn't evaporate as quickly. All past tense now, my days are behind me.
Yet another great instalment in the series Tony. Great work as usual. 👌👍
i like water because it is easier to flush out, kero has a slight problem with hanging around, my opinion
I use cast rings on the iffy bores, not perfect but not that bad. 300 grit and brake em in like I'm gonna run it. Run it up pretty hard and back all the way off throttle. do that a few times then just drive it. Never had a problem with rings setting.
I rebuilt the 4.0 in my 1991 XJ just shy of three years ago. Got a complete engine off of Craigslist out of a 1998 for 50.00 to rebuild. Supposedly it just needed a new head gasket, HA! Tore it apart and piston #3 had a sunroof. The cylinder was scuffed, but I only had to take it 30 over. I went with sealed power hypereutectic pistons, a Cloyes timing set and melling cam and lifters. Ordered a 10 under crank from Rock Auto for way less than what it would have cost to have it ground. For the rockers you cannot beat Scorpion roller adjustable units. I also spent the extra 250.00 and had the rotating assembly balanced. I did the assembly myself, and its been a great running engine. The only issue I had was a couple of the pipe plugs in the head had not been tightened correctly at the machine shop and were weeping coolant. Simple fix to diagnose and repair.
I've assembled multiple ( about 80 or so) SB and BB Chevys. Honing can make or break a rebuild. This is about the most simple and straightforward explanation of technique and goal for the desired end result I've seen on the "tube". It's probably pretty hard to get an accurate image of what you're looking for on camera, but if you're a newbie this is an excellent video to get you where you need to be. There's a thousand ways to do it wrong. Trust me. P.S. my grandad always used kerosene as lube. Don't know why, but he said it works better on larger bore engines such as tractors I trust that because Grandpa told me so. I just know the man could keep anything running. Ain't too bad at it myself. Still got his Ford Jubilee and use it about 8 months out of the year for various reasons. Thanks for the lesson, Tony!
I have learned more watching 2 of these videos today than any others in my 46 years on this earth. Simple, clear and easy to understand.
So true! Back when I was having a '71 340 block remachined, I noticed a signficantly finer finish on the bores than I was used to seeing. The machinist explained to me that, since we were going with Moly rings, a finer finish was required for it all to work well together. Bore finish is one of those important details that can make or break a build...
Ole "Flipped Stone" Tony! Keep at it Tony. You remind me alot of my old man. Love your content. It's like a good meal at a greasy spoon.
The rings will adapt to the thread pattern and screw right into place...
Love you Tony. Thank you for sharing all of your knowledge with us when you don't have to. You're getting me through my rebuild as we speak 🙂 Screw anyone who gives you crap about the 14:40 thing - that moment does not define you. You clearly know your shit. I will continue watching and have already subscribed.
Thank you for mentioning that a freshly honed engine with cast rings will rotate with some resistance when assembled. It's been 30 years since I had a fresh rebuilt short block old school V8, but one thing I remember was there being a fair amount of resistance if I rotated the crank assembly. On some of these recent videos that people have put out there have indicated the engine should rotate easily. Kinda thought that wasn't quite right from what I remember back in the day. But I know now that's not right if I hone an old school engine and install cast rings it'll need to feel tight. Thanks for the tips.
the ring pack is the source of most of the friction in an older style engine. .Getting the rings friendly with the bore is the most important thing in a engine. The first 20 minutes of its life is the most important part..
Tony we are roughly the same age took different paths in life but as I watch your videos I am reminded of my youth and all the engine building tech we had back then kids today need your channel if they are going make it in to our old school garage home hot rodding builds. Keep up the teaching its great!
Ashamed to admit I've never honed any engine I've rebuilt ,1000 grit sand paper to remove varnish and send it. only three engines though and all turned out good. All Newish stuff 2000's up
Tony these videos have been great. Even if this is a little basic tech-wise. You still drop those little magic tidbits of wisdom in every video. Keeps me coming back. That and the hone booboo....I was clenched right up. Lol.
My Flex Stone hone, frequently called "Diggel-Berry" was use with solvent. A line of tape is used to mark the entire depth, so the cylinder sleeve bottoms and main caps are not hit. I still have a Sterret cylinder bore gauge but also their 8" length of feeler blades that would measure taper and out of round from 0.0006"-0.0015" on a ring and paper thin!
DK, Omaha.
The thumbnail of this guy is priceless. Sketchy old man.
The guys a legend in my book
great post UTG can remember a time when you'd get an engine back they never explainded WHAT they did they would just say, use a certain type of earl er oil
Went to a sealed power interview in high school learned that if your building an engine a basic overhaul do nut break the glaze rings seat faster in shiny cylander bores after that i never put a stone to them and never had a problem seating rings ive seen machine shop rebuilds that the engine smoked grey for hours until ringsnseated
He said" cattywampus"👍🏼!!!
Cast iron, the perfect material for lots of stuff. I’ve never had a torque-plate. Honed many engines, not necessary to get every bit of glaze out. They will run well!
I used to work at a GM engine plant and can assure you there were no torque plates used in boring or honing cylinders.
so much great information in this video, Thank you!! As someone just embarking on their DiY mechanic journey, this was extremely useful.
I'm glad I found this. His advice is perfect for rebuilding an old 2 cylinder John Deere engine.
I ABSOLUTELY HATE that most hones are free floating and not internally parallelized!
I know, it costs a WHOLE LOT MORE, the way they are not made in China to make them more complicated, but I GREW UP with the PROPER honing tools, how they were made back in the 50's and 60's when engine repair companies CARED about their reputations as a tool supplier company.
Flippy-floppy hones are okay for MOST applications, I will not deny this, but NOT for EXTREME PRECISION.
I was raised to work in 'EXTREME PRECISION' by a USAF aircraft mechanic, and to this day, this is how I build and rebuild macinery.
Please explain. Is that precision hone like a quality puller that has a collar around the three legs to maintain equal tension?
@@rcnelson Look up "Lisle hone". It is a similar, if not the same hone, as used on the honing machines at the machine shop.
@@rcnelson I am honestly thinking I will make mine in 4 or 6 land forms.
I do not see any 3 land format being able to produce what I need in my research.
@@rcnelson see if you can find a picture of a sunnen precision hone.typically used for final sizing after boring.the hone tony is using is glaze breaking type where you are restoring cross hatch with as small amount of metal removal as possible.
Thanks for showing the kids how we did it back in the day. However, my local machine shop in NC is very good. I don't play this game anymore. I talk with them about my engine goals and piston ring and cam package. They do the Magnaflux, line bore, hone, balancing (most important), and bottom end assembly. It's not that I can't do it, but they have an incredible hot tank and all the new machinery to make it right. In reality, what they charge is nothing compared to the work you get. I don't know how they do it for what they charge. Maybe I am just lucky because of my area. For 2 or 3 hundred bucks to get a fully machined and assembled long block... I'm your huckleberry.
At that price I'd love the name of that machine shop. Worth the 3-4 hour drive into NC if they're good as you say.
@@ImAfraidBruce In the Charlotte, Greensboro, Raleigh area they are everywhere. The key is to be open about your project and pay cash. There are a ton of engine guys down here that can rip out a street engine in a couple of days, especially if you bring them all the parts.
I agree, if you need it done right! If I'm gonna have it bored, the machine shop does all of it, including the top end. I believe this helps them, too.
I'll bring the parts if they want but when they provide parts they get some mark-up so I ask which way they prefer to go.
Oh Unk, as you were assembling the hone, my first thought was "double check that the stones are the grit the package says". Wish I hadn't learned to think that way.
Good job! I have had the "new" hotrod builders say that if the engine is hard to turn over, it is not built right.
I love this channel.....always straight forward. I also appreciate your personal opinions and insight. Absolutely great tee shirts.
And from Under the Bridge they come...
Hahaha
Whatever... We watch, we learn, we live the true Daily driver Classic Cars and trucks..
We are UTG
@∅
Old school drills like this are nice because a lot had a stop for the trigger speed. This drill looks heavy. Definitely getting a work out!
Old school? Corded drills are still sold every day lol! One BIG advantage that they have over cordless is run time...unless the power goes out!
A 6 Ah battery will last forever with this kind of light application though.
@@maikelnait1051fax
Great video, brother. Very good information about doing a good job on this stuff. Thank you, man.
Tony thank you for making these videos!
The little bit of Evercraft stuff I've bought has all been great, surprisingly well for a house brand.
Great series!!! Love this!!!……. Thank you Tony!!! 👍🔧
Very good video your the Boss Tony! Did the same on my 351 and it’s worked perfectly.
I sure love and appreciate honest and applicable help for 99% of people here🎯 Since my question is paint prep related ill ask on another one of your videos
Good looking cross hatch! Going old school brings back memories
Hey Uncle Tony, at about 14:47 the one stone was flipped backwards, play on slow motion you can see it when inserted into the bore.
I seen it
Was gonna' say the exact same thing, I was yelling at my screen for Tony to stop! Lol, I was shocked when he said he was happy with the hone on that cylinder, lol "Tony!! Nooooo!"
That'll give the cylinder wall patina!
They go a certain way? 😳
He pinned a comment about it now. I caught it too. He says "I can do this" and then didn't do it. I doubt the aluminum stone holder on the hone could cut, let alone wear down, the steel cylinder sleeve. It'll be fine.
14:45 😣 hopefully it didn't scratch it up too bad. Honestly it looked ok but I did say "oh no" when I saw that.
LOL 8 months later and only you and 1 other person caught that slip up at 14:44.
The soft steel the shoe plates are made of won't have done anything. I wanted to show this to some kids who are learning, and it was a great video of how to and what not to do LOL
Nice clear and informative! Thank you
Thanks man.
Learned a lot in so few minutes.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge
I will follow these instructions and the other motor building tips to get the 305 boat motor I got apart to running shape.
Outstanding! All my questions were answered! Where have you seen that before!
Tony! I can’t believe yiu put one of the hone stones back to front!
soon as you say you want to do something to your engine, everyone says, bring it to the machine shop. I know the machine shop can get the best results but chances are almost all engines left the factory less than pefect yet they racked up 100k + miles.
I like to do things myself and when you depend on someone to get the results you want, they end up missing the mark somewhere.
Great video! What do you use to lubricate the cylinder while honing?
Gasoline
Thanks for sharing!
I'm fortunate to have 2 local, independent auto parts stores that actually stock various grits of Lisle stones for my ancient Lisle cylinder hone. They're not expensive either.
On the other hand, any time I take a block to a machine shop, it's definitely getting bored and, I always take the rings (still in the sealed box) that I've chosen to the shop along with the block. That way, if there's any questions about bore finish, the machine shop can contact the manufacturer to make sure what the requirements are.
awesome t shirt and info ty
thank you Tony
So valuable. Thank you
This is certainly an appropriate video for Valentine's Day. ;)
In 'n out speed :) I counted 1 one thousand. 2 one thousand. 3 one thousand. You got rhythm Tony!
My 40.jeep motor was warp head block was little bit so i sanded it with a slab of grannet whit sandpaper sprayed glued and it showed me what i was seeing whit filler gages and cleaned up top of block
Thanks again
this is great info !
First time I did a Honda engine ( F22A1 ) . I for the love of leave it to beaver couldn't figure out why the rings would go bad so quickly. Only engines I had rebuilt before that was all pre 1975 . Man that was a expensive learning curve.
Good tips 👍
Crosshatch looks good
I used to drive to every part store to find what I was looking for , now I call them.
2:27 Very interesting, I'll be starting up my Corvair engine soon with new cast iron rings. Will watch for the fireworks!
You do realize one of the honing stones went in backwards when you were honing around the 15 minute mark. Just thought I'd let you know that. It was the stone facing the most right, when you put the honer in.
I like a Sunnin or Ammco Adjustable Hone as opposed to a regular Glaze Breaker .
Great vids as usual, just got done doing a 1974 Ford 351Windsor 0.030 over ,bearings .10 under just a quick cleaned up and cross hatched all cylinders with medium grit.Worked out great.I used medium grit, now imma thinking redoing with the coarser grit just to get them cross hatches ALITTLE coarser,Advisable or not would you think.
Thank you Sir
Here is a tip for all you creative types out there. When it comes to rebuilding engines, one thing you absolutely DON'T want to do is chamfer the cylinder tops. Let me tell you why.
Recently, I had a customer bring in what was supposed to be a recently rebuilt engine from a full-service junkyard. However, upon inspection, it became clear that although the engine had been rebuilt, it wasn't done properly. The use of water and absence of a thermostat hinted at trouble, but it was when I dismantled it that I found the real issues.
Rust stains in the cylinders and evidence of multiple head gasket failures indicated serious problems. Despite the low mileage and new pistons, the tops of the bores were chamfered, likely for easier piston installation. This seemingly innocent modification had dire consequences. The head gasket wasn't adequately shielded from the combustion flame, leading to overheating and premature failure.
While a general rule of thumb is to maintain approximately 1mm or 0.04 of clearance between the head gasket and both the cylinder bore and the combustion chamber, it's essential to verify this clearance according to the specifications of your specific engine. Engine designs can vary, so always refer to the manufacturer's guidelines for precise measurements. Proper clearance is crucial to prevent overheating and premature failure of the head gasket. In this case it was likely hanging inside the bore.
If you're working on an engine without alignment dowels (common in older 4-cylinder engines), don't worry. You can use a thin layer of glue, like contact glue or silicone, to secure the head gasket in place. Just apply it sparingly on the outer corners outside of the bolts, and ensure there's no excess.
Remember, proper engine rebuilding is all about attention to detail and following best practices. Don't let shortcuts like chamfering the cylinder tops lead to costly repairs down the line or worse still an engine that you can never figure out what's going wrong! Happy wrenching!
I've seen cometic recommend at least 0.01 clearance.
LOL, forgot to edit out that you placed the hone in with one stone turned inward.
Sucks getting old my eyesight is going but I caught that too
This is an awesome series of videos. I have a 1998 Jeep 4.0 L to rebuild as a daily driver. So many other videos are focussed on the high performance aspects of rebuilding. Tony does a great job reviewing the fundamentals and practical choices needed for an everyday rebuild! Thanks Tony!! How do you determine if the cam shaft is reusable? Is it based solely on examining the lifters?
Check the loabs make sure they're not flattening out.
Retired FireFighter here....I wouldn't use gas in an enclosed building...you have been lucky so far. Scarry. Kerosene won't flash with fumes as easily.
I got the confidence to use the stone hone after i seen you do it wrong and it be fine
Always wanted to build up an engine. A lot to know.
talk about crawling into the carb and coming out of the exhaust pipe
I said "oh crap" at 14:47 when you put a flipped stone in the bore and went to town! Looks like none for the wear tho.
On 14:49 one of the fins was inserted backwards, with the stone facing the center of the tool instead of the cylinder bore wall. That probably had scraped the wall heavily.
HOWdy U-T-G, ...
AMC / JEEP 4.0 I-6 cylinder rebuild ...
Thanks
COOP
the WiSeNhEiMeR from Richmond, INDIANA
...
I learned again something important cause i was sure the honning had to be shinny and like the newer rings type. Almost like a baby bum touch with a little brush almost glazed look. I will be more attentive when i do my next engine.
Probably my 76 360-6 Winibago engine with 85 miles on it. If i keep the same rings after a quick clean up, il will know what rock to use according to the rings application. If i keep or change from wear over the mesured gap. Thanks Uncle Tony. Nice content again.
Outstanding! true old school!
Good on ya uncle Tony
I saw a video here in Melbourne for a performance engine builder
and I know your channel as for the DIYer but just as a point of interest
he uses this gauge that is about an inch wide and 5 inches long and once you finish honing, you put the gauge along the cylinder wall. It throws light into the crosshatch and gives measurements as to the depth of the scratch how many scratches they are, and the angle and they keep re-honing until they get the numbers they need for the application
very interesting.
Hello Sir. Would it be nice to use Flexhone same grit ( or finer grit ) after the stone honing to break the peaks for easier rings bedding in ? Regards
Hi Tony
Good video man ! Could please specify what you are squirting down the boars whilst you were honing. I want to hone a small small 4 cylinder GM block, 1,6 liter. Its from 2003 , and its cast iron. Is the middle grit of 180 ok for the zylinder honing ?. Thankyou
I want to learn how to do this. Would you recommend practicing on a shot trash block before getting into a good one?
So I'm not the only one having problems finding hone stones at parts stores.
What would you consider a medium or fine grit hone ? Thanks for the lesson in all things engine
First engine I ever did was a model T. Was so tight we had to tow it behind a truck for an hour just to get it to turn over, and it got hotter than heck once we got it going. Almost 2 decades later now I know why.
Uncle T, Have you ever tried kerosene for honing? It seems like it would be a great mix of cleaning and lubrication.
I ised kerosene to flush a gummed up 302 before. Worked better than Diesel. I also tried filling it to the top of the valve cover with gasoline once and fired it up. Lucky i didn't have a problem. Also water. Kerosene worked good.
Yep, Dad used to use a small bucket of it to dip the hones in. It has a lubricating attribute as well as a flushing action of the stones.
When he said your trying to do the work of a machine here i instantly thought of surfs up "let the wave do the work not the board" "you cant fight these big waves Co" "you gotta go with the grain" 😂
Mate when honing what lubricant are you using?
I was just screaming no over and over. But, your still the man. Should see some of the stupid s..t I do
Another trick is to wrap a dingle-ball hone with some sandpaper (fine grit) and rubber bands and use Purple Power or Simple Green, etc. and take the high spots down. I use this on import engines or performance rebuilds with narrow/metric rings and moly (fragile) rings. Chrome rings or ductile iron will work fine with your method, I agree!
What did he use for lube? I like how the cam zoomed in on his finger running over the crosshatch - you could hear the roughness that a smooth un-honed cylinder wont have.
is it a good idea to have the block hot tanked after I have honed the cylinders or before?
I want to hone standard bore in my 46 ford v8. Do I need to use a ridge reamer or just hone? Thanks Tony! Your vides have been huge for me.
Any advice for a steel cylinder with a cast aluminum piston? As far as rings and hone goes?
Any idea if the standard hone from harbor freight is a medium or course stone? It says Aluminum Oxide
Plain cast rings will break in to just about anything.
Just knock the glase and make sure there's no ridge.
I cant find any videos on using this type of stone hone on atv and dirtbike cylinders. Im reading not to use them because the spring loading action can catch the ports inside those type of cylinders. That a flex hone is the best because of the ports. Any input?