Thanks for this interview. It’s a refreshing break from people struggling with drug addiction. Passed this on to my teen who taught himself coding in Jr high
@@cmo5150 I don't understand ur sarcasm. I'm so thankful that I had an amazing dad! We had a great relationship, all he wanted was the best 4 his family-he worked & struggled in his young life to make sure that we had the most fulfilling lives possible. I wish that everyone had the same experience w their dad.
What a fantastic episode Mark. Please get Steve back again. The internet is so ingrained in our lives now, that all this information is crucial if we have any chance of surviving online.
I am today years old when I learned that there is such a thing as an industrial-goth community. Fantastic hair!! What a mind this man has. Luckily for us he seems to be using it for good. It is a scary cyber world out there. So many of their devices are given sweet, friendly names - raspberry pie, flipper, rubber ducky. I have certainly learned a great deal from this man. Again, what a great mind he has. It is absolutely wonderful to listen to someone with such command of the language. Nary a "like" was heard. Mark - phenomenally good interview. Interview him again and again!! Thank you!
My brother is a computer tech Asperger savant. He has so many similarities to him up to appearance it’s uncanny! Really grateful for these incredible interviews ❤😊
As someone who knows nothing about cyber security... He sounds like he's bullshitting about it. Like he has some knowledge but deep down knows very little. Like I said idk shit about any of this but it does sound like mania.
Same here, 3 years in (school-wise) spent by entire teens cracking production programs like Abelton, Fruity Loops for TPB which got me into all this. Great interview.
@@HarderTime89you severely underestimate the cyber security space. Been studying cybersecurity for a couple years and there is still a lot I don’t know or even heard of it’s such a vast space. None of what he says in this video outlandish at all
@@HarderTime89 I've been studying cyber security for at least 2 years, and let me tell you... This man has tons and tons of knowledge. He knows what he's talking about. Lately he's been to defcon as a speaker. He has decades of experience and loves to teach what he knows.
This guy steve is very easy to listen to and he is really good at making what he was sharing makes sense to a person (myself) who has no background in this space and i really truly feel i had gotten some good understanding on the little pieces he shared in this vast space of the digital world i hope he would consider having another sit down with you some time in the future cause he has so much more he had to say and there just wasn't enough time for him to possibly do it in great interview mark and thank you Mr. Steve for your time it is very much appreciated and is not time that was wasted. Please come back on when you are able. I'm sure I'm not the only one that would enjoy a part two. 🙂👆💯👍👍
I wish I could articulate like this guy, its something I struggle with on the job and trying to get better at explaining things. Really well done interview, hope to see another hacker or a follow up from him.
TY Mark for this interview. He reminds me of my brother who works in cybersecurity. He's worked for the gov't & private sector, he def inherited his abilities from our dad who started on IBM mainframes in the '60's using fortran/ cobol & then C++ etc. It's fascinating to me bc I inherited a totally different skill set than my brother, so everything computer related is so interesting to learn about. Especially since AI has grown exponentially in a short time span. Please have him back for another interview!
Title: Hacker interview Very first question: Do you call yourself a hacker? Steve: "No not really" Lol mark. I just thought that was hilarious. God bless y'all and I hope everyone has a beautiful day
many hackers find the term "hacker" pretentious... almost like someone calling themselves an "influencer". stephen authors and teaches the most advanced course at the most advanced security training institute (SANS) - if he's not a hacker, then they might be a mythical entity.
Mark, this was a captivating interview. Steve knows his stuff and was able to articulate it so well to us viewers. I learned so much from him. Thank you !
As someone that works in this field, at a much, much lower level than this guy, I have to say that this was actually one of the most informative sfu interviews for the general public. I am a little wary of his step by step walkthrough as far as hacking techniques are concerned. Specifically the low tech vulnerabilities that a lot of attacks are done through these days. Especially on this channel… Alerting the general public about what they need to be very cautious of would probably have been enough without advertising the specific hardware (and low cost) that they can use to implement such attacks. Especially when you also mention that there are communities in which you can just grab all of the malicious scripts to execute such an attack. I shouldn’t even be reiterating this tbh but overall, great interview. One of the best on this channel for sure.
I have a very similar background to this man. This is one of the very few interviews of a “hacker” (hate that term too) that is realistic and on point. You continue to amaze me with your interviews. Keep it up!!
@@miroz5824 You can look on Google for 'Stephen Sims' or 'Stephen Sims SANS', he also has a youtube channel where he does lives and talks about Vulnerabilities, exploit development. The name of the channel is called 'Off By One Security'
@@miroz5824 I don't think he has a yt channel (as far as I know). You can search up Steve Sims SANS offensive and there's some vids. In terms of actual connection, I'm not sure. You could try X?
I enjoyed this interview a ton! I am getting my masters in health informatics and it was really intriguing hearing him talk about information systems that I’m reading about!! Very insightful. Hope there’s a part 2!
Anyone who knows of this guy from the tech world, you know this guy is the real deal….he was one of the first people to obtain arguably the most difficult cybersecurity cert which today only a little over 300 ppl hold
This is a great interview.... bring him back for another episode. There's so much to discuss in this broad subject area, and it's never not a good idea to continue to inform us all in this stuff
This was an amazing interview. What an incredible trove of knowledge to get to peak into. I really have high hopes you will interview Steve again. I'd love to learn more and hear more about his experiences. Thanks you for all your work as well. Such an informative channel full of so many emotions and insights.
We NEEEED a part 2!! Or 3 or 4 lol. This was so interesting! I could listen to him talk about this stuff for hours!! Please have him come back to go into more detail on cyber security, AI, etc. I hope you have more tech "hackers" on! Great interview, hope to see him back soon!👏
This isn't my take-away from this VERY interesting convo, but....those are some very cool shoes my dude! Also, good on you for defending the defenseless and for teaching others how to defend themselves against ever changing tech.
Great interview, I enjoyed this one a tons! Hacker interviews are always fascinating because it reminds me of this whole other world that I don’t often think of
I'm from Romania, happy to say today IT is huge here and there's tons of legal opportunities for folks with skills, in fact it's one of our biggest industries. But yes, pre-EU, didn't surprise me at all what he said.
As someone that was part of the original "hacking" scene when I was a kid, I agree with him. Hackers used to be part of a very definable community- people that had a true passion for making computers do what they are not supposed to do to bypass systems, rules, policies, security, etc. Over the years anyone and everyone who works in tech has called themselves a hacker for street cred or style points or something. I stopped using that term to describe anything I do after learning coding became trendy and every app developer or software engineer considered themselves a "hacker" lol.
This is fascinating. I feel like hacking has sort of disappeared from the public eye in the sense that there used to be tv shows and movies with hackers as characters. They’re just not as prominent in the public consciousness, yet more relevant than ever.
What a great interview, it’s clear Steve has experience in almost all aspects of “cybersecurity”. His ability to break down some more technical topics in such a digestible way is amazing
Great episode. That said, I think he continuously tried to convey this point but didn't explicitly say it: If someone has physical access to a device, it's only a matter of time before they have full access. It doesn't matter what it is.
the musician part hit so hard for me. I recently transitioned into Cyber with 2 GIAC certifications I cleared in under 6 months (GFACT and GSEC). I previously played bass guitar with no previous IT knowledge. Mark, thank you SO much for what you do man. I love to see these videos, Gummo and Steve are LEGENDS!
Fellow hacker and long time viewer. So I was happy to see this one drop. Took computer science in college. Got honor roll twice. Can’t get a job in the field for the life of me
Just got my security plus certificate a few weeks ago and while I still consider myself to know jack about computers, it's cool hearing him say random things I recognize. "Hmm I know some of these words"
I'm in my 40s and there were hackers when the internet was new.. I had a kid in my class, which was a "bad kid" class, this kid had frozen every computers in the school, including in the office, except his own, they caught him that way..he had told me the police had already come into his parents home and ripped the computer out the wall, this was back before flat screens when a small computer weighed 150lbs!
@izzydeadyet7336 yeah the word "hacker" used to be a good term. Meant you were self taught computers and smart. Some how it changed along the way. But that was back when 10 inch floppys were a thing 😆
Steve is so well spoken and articulate. Great interview!! Thank you for another winner!
shut up
i mean.. hes white.
Mark is so great at what he does... don't you agree? I am so intrigued by 95 percent of his interviews. THE BEST...❤ Lisa Las Vegas 🫶
Thanks for this interview. It’s a refreshing break from people struggling with drug addiction. Passed this on to my teen who taught himself coding in Jr high
This man only mentioned his father a few times but you can see the lasting positive impact a caring father can have
Nice self report
@@salimdatoo1793 Amen to stanle father's
@@cmo5150
I don't understand ur sarcasm. I'm so thankful that I had an amazing dad! We had a great relationship, all he wanted was the best 4 his family-he worked & struggled in his young life to make sure that we had the most fulfilling lives possible. I wish that everyone had the same experience w their dad.
@@binaryfairy4197my friend, that guy is jealous you had a great dad. It's ok. I have an excellent father as well. Jesus teaches us to love them.
Dude a million things was said, this just talks about you 😂 not to sound a bad guy
What a fantastic episode Mark. Please get Steve back again. The internet is so ingrained in our lives now, that all this information is crucial if we have any chance of surviving online.
He needs a part two!!!
🎉📲ြြြြြြြြ❤၎င်း❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤💻🕋 ီးိးိးိး်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်းးфото А я вже не знаю 🌄……זלֶ🛸🕳️ًسًضجظ بضجيج بشجشجشجءجءجءةءججءءجءج 🐰🌸💗✨كش}€¥€{
I think he had an interesting interview by David Bombal a while back, feel free to check it out.
@ let me know if you see this comment plz
@@juuustpeachy why? U shadowbanned?
@ ֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶֶ
What a good guest, interesting and informative.
Great interview! Steve is incredibly well spoken. He articulates complex topics in a way that most of us can understand. Well done!
I was riveted to the screen this entire interview. This person has so much to say.
I really hope there will be a PART 2!
Me too. I hope to see him on more long form podcasts.
I would love a part 2.
One of the best and informative interviews I've watched
I am today years old when I learned that there is such a thing as an industrial-goth community. Fantastic hair!! What a mind this man has. Luckily for us he seems to be using it for good. It is a scary cyber world out there. So many of their devices are given sweet, friendly names - raspberry pie, flipper, rubber ducky. I have certainly learned a great deal from this man. Again, what a great mind he has. It is absolutely wonderful to listen to someone with such command of the language. Nary a "like" was heard.
Mark - phenomenally good interview. Interview him again and again!! Thank you!
Industrial goth was big early-mid 90s. Did not know it survived to this day.
Kinda steampunk vibe))
My brother is a computer tech Asperger savant. He has so many similarities to him up to appearance it’s uncanny! Really grateful for these incredible interviews ❤😊
Interesting video. I could have listened to Steve for hours. Thankyou Mark and Steve.
🎉📲ြြြြြြြြ❤၎င်း❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤💻🕋 ီးိးိးိး်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်းးфото А я вже не знаю 🌄……זלֶ🛸🕳️ًسًضجظ بضجيج بشجشجشجءجءجءةءججءءجءج 🐰🌸💗✨كش}€¥€{
Steve Sims is a legend of the game... so good to see him on here. Thanks for your contribution to the industry Steve.
Really wish this was in podcast form. Want to listen to all these interviews when I'm active, not sitting at home. Great job with them though!
As someone who is actively studying cybersecurity this is an awesome interview.
Ethical hacking is essential in making sure we keep end users safe.
As someone who knows nothing about cyber security... He sounds like he's bullshitting about it. Like he has some knowledge but deep down knows very little. Like I said idk shit about any of this but it does sound like mania.
Same here, 3 years in (school-wise) spent by entire teens cracking production programs like Abelton, Fruity Loops for TPB which got me into all this. Great interview.
@@HarderTime89 Well, you anwsered your own question. sudo rm -Rf '@HarderTime89' (had to come back and add those quotes)
@@HarderTime89you severely underestimate the cyber security space. Been studying cybersecurity for a couple years and there is still a lot I don’t know or even heard of it’s such a vast space. None of what he says in this video outlandish at all
@@HarderTime89 I've been studying cyber security for at least 2 years, and let me tell you... This man has tons and tons of knowledge. He knows what he's talking about. Lately he's been to defcon as a speaker. He has decades of experience and loves to teach what he knows.
This guy steve is very easy to listen to and he is really good at making what he was sharing makes sense to a person (myself) who has no background in this space and i really truly feel i had gotten some good understanding on the little pieces he shared in this vast space of the digital world i hope he would consider having another sit down with you some time in the future cause he has so much more he had to say and there just wasn't enough time for him to possibly do it in great interview mark and thank you Mr. Steve for your time it is very much appreciated and is not time that was wasted. Please come back on when you are able. I'm sure I'm not the only one that would enjoy a part two. 🙂👆💯👍👍
I feel like I learned so much from this interview. Thank you Steve!
Most fascinating interview ever! Couldve been glued for 10 hours
💯
I wish I could articulate like this guy, its something I struggle with on the job and trying to get better at explaining things. Really well done interview, hope to see another hacker or a follow up from him.
TY Mark for this interview. He reminds me of my brother who works in cybersecurity. He's worked for the gov't & private sector, he def inherited his abilities from our dad who started on IBM mainframes in the '60's using fortran/ cobol & then C++ etc. It's fascinating to me bc I inherited a totally different skill set than my brother, so everything computer related is so interesting to learn about. Especially since AI has grown exponentially in a short time span. Please have him back for another interview!
"I don't consider myself a hacker"
Hacker Interview - Steve Sims
He didn't title the vid.
@@flynt1977 It's a cute joke. Just roll with it. 🙄
😂
😮
Outside looking in
Never thought I'd see him here. As a cybersecurity student, his channel off-by-one security has tought me so much.
He's brilliant, and not a showoff
i could listen this guy talk for 4 hours straight. We need part 2
I always enjoy these types of interviews! Gummo is one of my all time favourite. This one is interesting as well! Thank you Mark!
gummo was a good ep but hes prolly full of shit. some of his claims were outlandish
@hikemalliday6007 yeah I got the same feeling l. At least Stephen is 100% legit
We need part 2, 3, 4, and 5
Title: Hacker interview
Very first question: Do you call yourself a hacker?
Steve: "No not really"
Lol mark. I just thought that was hilarious. God bless y'all and I hope everyone has a beautiful day
many hackers find the term "hacker" pretentious... almost like someone calling themselves an "influencer". stephen authors and teaches the most advanced course at the most advanced security training institute (SANS) - if he's not a hacker, then they might be a mythical entity.
@@gitgudsec Doesn't the term have bad connotations too associated with crime or suspicious activity? Not a title you'd necessarily want
Learned a lot here today.. this was an eye opener. Thanks Steve
Mark, this was a captivating interview. Steve knows his stuff and was able to articulate it so well to us viewers. I learned so much from him. Thank you !
Fantastic interview
I was lucky enough to get a training from this fine fellow. Great video!
As someone that works in this field, at a much, much lower level than this guy, I have to say that this was actually one of the most informative sfu interviews for the general public.
I am a little wary of his step by step walkthrough as far as hacking techniques are concerned. Specifically the low tech vulnerabilities that a lot of attacks are done through these days. Especially on this channel…
Alerting the general public about what they need to be very cautious of would probably have been enough without advertising the specific hardware (and low cost) that they can use to implement such attacks. Especially when you also mention that there are communities in which you can just grab all of the malicious scripts to execute such an attack. I shouldn’t even be reiterating this tbh but overall, great interview. One of the best on this channel for sure.
I have a very similar background to this man. This is one of the very few interviews of a “hacker” (hate that term too) that is realistic and on point. You continue to amaze me with your interviews. Keep it up!!
Steve Sims is awesome, great to see him here on your channel Mark!
Hi, I tried finding him but there is some enetrpreneur with the same name. Care to give me a lead where to find this Steve?
@@miroz5824 You can look on Google for 'Stephen Sims' or 'Stephen Sims SANS', he also has a youtube channel where he does lives and talks about Vulnerabilities, exploit development. The name of the channel is called 'Off By One Security'
@@miroz5824 Look up SANS - he is one of the head authors of the top level courses.
@@miroz5824 search Off by One Security
@@miroz5824 I don't think he has a yt channel (as far as I know). You can search up Steve Sims SANS offensive and there's some vids. In terms of actual connection, I'm not sure. You could try X?
This was great, would love to see them again and talk more on it.
Interesting interview. We need to see him again...a Part 2. Thank you for sharing this video with us. :)
2 mins in and this guy is legit!!
I enjoyed this interview a ton! I am getting my masters in health informatics and it was really intriguing hearing him talk about information systems that I’m reading about!! Very insightful. Hope there’s a part 2!
I knew this would hit! Love it, Mark! Thank you! 👏👏👏👏
The Best Interview Yet! I'm Invested!! BRING STEVE BACK!! ❤😊
Are you sure he's a hacker and not the lead guitarist of a Punk band?
🎸
he's actually also the vocalist of a band called deadcode lol
Look up Solid State Logic - hard rock band
Check it out his band’s song “call out the liars”
He looks like a Billy Idol impersonator.
Anyone who knows of this guy from the tech world, you know this guy is the real deal….he was one of the first people to obtain arguably the most difficult cybersecurity cert which today only a little over 300 ppl hold
Wow
What's that OSEE? I always thought he was a SANS guy
With a surname Sims I guess he was destined to work with computers in some capacity.
Lol😂
This channel is so amazing, I’ve learnt so many things so for that thankful
“im a musician as well.” Like yes of course you are. That wasn’t even a question haha love it.
Top 10 interview from across all channels that I follow.
We have so much to thanks for all the high level knowledge that Steve share with us!!!!
This guy is totally interesting and knows his sh*t.
Another great interview Mark!
🎉📲ြြြြြြြြ❤၎င်း❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤💻🕋 ီးိးိးိး်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်းးфото А я вже не знаю 🌄……זלֶ🛸🕳️ًسًضجظ بضجيج بشجشجشجءجءجءةءججءءجءج 🐰🌸💗✨كش}€¥€{
This is a great interview.... bring him back for another episode. There's so much to discuss in this broad subject area, and it's never not a good idea to continue to inform us all in this stuff
Cool to see Steve in a more conversational setting, sharing his experiences!
This was a fantastic interview. This guy is crazy Interesting. He needs a UA-cam channel if not already.
He has one, but it's all really in depth technical stuff that will go over 99% of people's heads
Part 2 please and possibly Part 3. This conversation is essential to hear in this current day.
This was an amazing interview. What an incredible trove of knowledge to get to peak into. I really have high hopes you will interview Steve again. I'd love to learn more and hear more about his experiences. Thanks you for all your work as well. Such an informative channel full of so many emotions and insights.
Mark, can you please do a part 2!!!
15:25 whoa lucky I watched this. I use the usb ports on buses all the time, had no idea that could happen.
We NEEEED a part 2!! Or 3 or 4 lol. This was so interesting! I could listen to him talk about this stuff for hours!! Please have him come back to go into more detail on cyber security, AI, etc. I hope you have more tech "hackers" on! Great interview, hope to see him back soon!👏
Very insightful this was a great watch.
I am glad Steve mentions 'Incognito' it's story is absolutely bewildering and shocking! More people should know of it.
Steve Sims is the man! dropping fire ! Thanks for the interview.
I so appreciate a very well spoken person, who is willing to share his passion and talents, with quite a talented interviewer as mark - ❤
HEY I’ve seen him on David Bombal’s channel. Beautiful guitar collection, Mr. Sims!
Literally could've listened to Steve for like 5 more hours lol such a great interview!
💯 Will be listening to this interview a few more times
That was the most interesting episode I’ve watched. What a fascinating guy Steve is. Thank you both
This isn't my take-away from this VERY interesting convo, but....those are some very cool shoes my dude! Also, good on you for defending the defenseless and for teaching others how to defend themselves against ever changing tech.
Great interview, I enjoyed this one a tons! Hacker interviews are always fascinating because it reminds me of this whole other world that I don’t often think of
Great choice of person to interview. Please have him back again.
I'm from Romania, happy to say today IT is huge here and there's tons of legal opportunities for folks with skills, in fact it's one of our biggest industries. But yes, pre-EU, didn't surprise me at all what he said.
As someone that was part of the original "hacking" scene when I was a kid, I agree with him. Hackers used to be part of a very definable community- people that had a true passion for making computers do what they are not supposed to do to bypass systems, rules, policies, security, etc. Over the years anyone and everyone who works in tech has called themselves a hacker for street cred or style points or something. I stopped using that term to describe anything I do after learning coding became trendy and every app developer or software engineer considered themselves a "hacker" lol.
This is fascinating. I feel like hacking has sort of disappeared from the public eye in the sense that there used to be tv shows and movies with hackers as characters. They’re just not as prominent in the public consciousness, yet more relevant than ever.
What a great interview, it’s clear Steve has experience in almost all aspects of “cybersecurity”. His ability to break down some more technical topics in such a digestible way is amazing
At age 62 I’m proud hat I understood all the jargon.
Lucky you. I was lost on "hacker".
So interesting man! Hope he returns for part 2.
Great interview! Would love to see a part 2!
This one was very cool. I love it when you interview super intelligent people.
What a phenominal interview! Would love to hear more from him.
There was so much to take in here, I think I need to watch it again.
Best interview in a while thank you Steve and Mark
Great episode. That said, I think he continuously tried to convey this point but didn't explicitly say it: If someone has physical access to a device, it's only a matter of time before they have full access. It doesn't matter what it is.
the musician part hit so hard for me. I recently transitioned into Cyber with 2 GIAC certifications I cleared in under 6 months (GFACT and GSEC). I previously played bass guitar with no previous IT knowledge.
Mark, thank you SO much for what you do man. I love to see these videos, Gummo and Steve are LEGENDS!
The guy from Green Day is a hacker .
Great interview, this guy is legit.
Great interview
As much as I love all videos on this channel, I love finding treasures like this one. Truly informative and inspiring! Thank you
Thank you Mark for sharing this interview, informative, great interview skills on your side too
Fellow hacker and long time viewer. So I was happy to see this one drop. Took computer science in college. Got honor roll twice. Can’t get a job in the field for the life of me
Maaaan I am a really big fan of Stephen! I wasn't expecting him to be here :O
He looks like a hacker. It's the cool hair.
A lesbian hacker
HAHA
Lmao
I thought he was a lesbian too lmao 😂
@@esme8818hey there
Respectfully.. nice to meet you 🫱🏻🫲🏿
Would love to see a part 2 !
Thanks for the interesting interview.
Dear Steve, Thank you!!
Very informative
We need this guy on again for a follow up.
Just got my security plus certificate a few weeks ago and while I still consider myself to know jack about computers, it's cool hearing him say random things I recognize. "Hmm I know some of these words"
I felt the same way with the show Mr Robot 😆
@@Finchizzle I actually watched season 1 before I went into my coursework for SecPlus! Mr Robot is awesome!
Back when I started with computers (before the internet) a hacker was used to reference a self taught computer user.
I'm in my 40s and there were hackers when the internet was new.. I had a kid in my class, which was a "bad kid" class, this kid had frozen every computers in the school, including in the office, except his own, they caught him that way..he had told me the police had already come into his parents home and ripped the computer out the wall, this was back before flat screens when a small computer weighed 150lbs!
@izzydeadyet7336 yeah the word "hacker" used to be a good term. Meant you were self taught computers and smart. Some how it changed along the way. But that was back when 10 inch floppys were a thing 😆
we appreciate you Mark❤
59:34 Nice Christian Louboutin's. This man is fascinating and I love that he appreciates quality.
Aloha from Maui to Mark Love ur photography and of course ur vids & interviews ! Much love & aloha ✨🌺🤙🏽✨
Hello sister.
@ Aloha 🤙🏽🌺✨
Wow I would love to live there.
❤❤❤❤ I’m Sorry , Please forgive me, I love you ,thank You 🕯️
🎉📲ြြြြြြြြ❤၎င်း❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤💻🕋 ီးိးိးိး်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်း်းးфото А я вже не знаю 🌄……זלֶ🛸🕳️ًسًضجظ بضجيج بشجشجشجءجءجءةءججءءجءج 🐰🌸💗✨كش}€¥€{
I love this! Bring him for part two so interesting
Long time fan ! This is absolutely your best video ever !
This is a good one. I was hooked the entire discussion. This hacking stuff is super interesting and scary at the same time