Miraak's claim about being the first Dragonborn has never sat quite right with me. In trying to corroborate his claim, I was unable to find anything that backed it up, and discovered what could perhaps be a whole new lens to view Miraak through. If you think I'm off-base or wrong here, please let me know. I'm totally open to criticism, and I'd be glad to be proven wrong, hence the "(Probably)" in the title. Thank you, -Dareloth
Another interesting little tidbit is there is Canonical albeit sparse evidence supporting that Akivir and Atmora was once part of a Great Continent in the Great North of Nirn, Mundus, or whatever else it's called. Due to Volcanic Activity, Wars of the Gods, the Ancient Elves, or something else, parts of the Continent split off. Like you said not much is known about the Ancient History, and Bethesda hasn't really touched upon it.
my devil's-advocate answer I have for you is that perhaps Mirrak predates the gift of dragonblood being bestowed in mortals, and as a result the knowledge about being dragonborn was part of the "thrown away knowledge" of the universe, and guess who so happens to be the god of the unused, leftover, or thrown away knowledge about reality? Hermaeus Mora. I believe that Mirrak served the dragons well, received some power and was maybe even taught some shouts by dragons, but Hermaeus mora shows mirrak the secret to learning dragon shouts as fast as a dragonborn can (whether or not he actually gave Mirrak dragon blood is beyond me, but I bet Hermaeus mora knew how it is that those with the dragon blood can learn shouts so easily and he showed Mirrak that) and on top of that teaches him the bend will words. Ultimately I believe Mirrak is *effectively* the first dragonborn since he has all the powers of a dragonborn, but he does NOT have true dragon blood in his veins and he is not destiny-bound to destroy alduin. I don't think Mirrak is telling the truth when he tells the last dragonborn that Mirrak could have killed Alduin if he wanted to, as I don't think Mirrak knew dragonrend or even knew about it (unless all mirrak had to do was kill alduin normally but in sovengarde and the player uses dragonrend there just to bring him to the ground) and also he 100% would have tried to kill aldiun during his first rule of solthseim cause aldiun would have been one of the only threats to him to exist at the time.
@@jansonshrock2859 Interesting Hypothesis. Got any more? I ask because you seem to have good Critical Thinking skills and coming up with more benefits all of the Skyrim Community.
@@OleDirtyMacSanchez For mirrak specifically, my other hypothesis is that maybe there was a dragon break that went unrecorded when mortals first received the gift of the dragon blood (something to do with the blood of creatures outside of time being put into creatures bound by time causes time to break) so technically theres multiple first dragonborns
@@jansonshrock2859 Technically the Gods and even the Deadric Gods are Dragon Breaks themselves. They're very existence is a Dragon Break. Pretty sure they could make Dragon Breaks at will, but it probably takes alot of power to do.
I actually kind of like how The Elder Scrolls has characters who are straight-up lying. Yes, it's an easy way for them to justify retcons, but it's cool how it also adds some realism to the mythos.
Ever since I had to spend hours googling to learn to crouch and hide and use conjurations to let himself get tired out and die because he’d glitch if I even hit him ONCE, I doubted his claims. 🤣
Miraak wasn't lying about that. He never said he could have (easily) slain Alduin, just that he could have slain him, he straight up says that Alduin could have been troublesome to him. Given we know Miraak is a Dragonborn one of the only being capable of slaying Alduin and more than likely knew about dragonrend and was in process of recieveing knowledge from Hermaeus Mora he wouldn't be lying because he was def capable or at least qualified to beat Alduin during that time.
@@lethal5383problem is Herma mora didn’t have knowledge of dragonrend since it was created by the 3 nord heroes only after they had asked miraak for help and he said no .
Miraak: "The first dragonborn, meets the last dragonborn." Player: "That's a nice argument, Miraak, why don't you back it up with a source?" Miraak: "My source is that I made it the fuck up."
What I always personally thought was that Miraaks claim of being the first dragonborn was misleading but not particularly a lie in a sense. We have to recall what a dragonborn is by nature, they aren't just divinely blessed mortals, they are dragon slayers. The only mortals who can truely and completely slay a dragon due to their ability to absorb dragon souls and steal their powers. It's possible what Miraak meant by "first dragonborn" was that he was the first dragon slayer. This would also explain his falling out with the dragon cult. As a member of a cult who worships and serves the dragonkind, the act of dragon slaying alone would be seen as blasphemy, then to go even further and absorb the dragons soul and steal its knowledge and power which rendered the slain dragon unressurrectable even to Alduin. That would be the seen as the ultimate heresy by the cult. It would also explain why Hakon and the others sought Miraaks help defeating Alduin. They wanted the aid of the first true dragonslayer who just might have the raw power and natural disposition to oppose and defeat Alduin.
There is nothing in lore that states that a Dragonborn MUST be a dragon slayer. It is stated , quite clearly, that a Dragonborn is any mortal ' born with the blood of a Dragon'. Tiber Septim was a Dragonborn but he never killed a single Dragon. Even the stupid guards of Whiterun knew that.
exactly what i was thinking- there could have been many dragonborns before miraak, but he was the first to be recognised as one by his dragon slaying. (unlike like the royal family of the empire who were dragonborn but never killed a dragon)
I believe talos would be considered the true first dragonborn. Imperial emperor's were dragonborns technically as the dragon blood ran through the septim dynasty up until the 4th era
Dragon Priests aren't dragonborn so learning shouts would be really difficult and take years and years to learn. Their masks have never been stated to give them the ability to shout, but it's known that they draw most of their power from their masks to rule over their subjects. So personally, I think just because they have the makes doesn't mean they should be able to shout Then again, countless Draugr shout so you may be on to something 😅
@@ElucidYTThing is, Thu'Um was a VERY big deal in ancient nordic culture, it was essential for war and was central in religious matter as well, so the fact that in game the religious leaders of the era cannot use it, even though they got to that level of power after literally decades of mastery is really weird. The only explanation that makes some bit of sense is that their masks prevent them from using their voice freely and thus cannot use Thu'Um because the Dragons didn't want to have such powerful humans around that could actually challenge them so they took away their Shout in a way in exchange for some other powers through the masks which made them more subservient
Except that miraak has a mask and he can shout but Vahlok the Jailer is a maskless dragon priest, and he won't shout. Despite being known to have the ability. I think it's clear from Morokei that they can shout as far as lore is concerned, but due to game limitations, they are not able
@@HappyBeezerStudios we can be absolutely sure thats not true. Miraak was the first dragon born, and he never died. Therefore, there has ALWAYS been atleast 2 dragonborn, from Alessia all the way through Martin Septim. Literally thousands of years of 2 concurrent dragonborn.
@@dillongage if I REALLY wanted to be an asshole i would argue that technically miraak was in a plane of oblivion so he didnt count as a dragonborn existing in the world
I think the two main problems here are that: 1. You've found no real evidence of your new conclusion; while this would be fine in theory, you actively dismissed direct testimony for not being backed by this. 2. Your new conjecture falls apart for the exact same counterpoints you made to discredit the original claim. We have no evidence that, if Dovahkiin existed before Miraak, that none of them ever served Mora. As you pointed out in your original deconstruction of Miraaks first title; the "First" in "First Servant" doesn't necessarily pertain to chronology. In fact; it seems significantly less likely in this scenario. "First" in the note doesn't even refer to Miraak as a Dragonborn, and the liklihood that Miraak is a chrononical first servant of a creature as ancient as Mora is dismissable in it's own right. This notes reference to Miraak as "The First Servant" is due to Miraak being the "Primary" or most significant servant. No other interpretation makes sense. As such it's not reasonable to use this as 'evidence' of Miraak being the first *dragonborn* servant specifically. (He is, but only by virute of being the first Dragonborn). The simplest answer here is obviously the correct one. The Dragonborn came about as a means to settle an imbalance within Akatosh's presence on Nirn. Prophecised to slay Alduin, the First Dragonborn was born as a disloyal servant of the Dragons; however corrupted by Mora and eventually taken by him, new Dragonborns arose through the ages in wait for Alduins return. Until finally the deed was done, Alduin was defeated and the need for a Dragonborn left the world. With the largest fragment of Akatosh returned, the smaller fragments intended to defeat and recapture Alduin no longer serve a purpose and similarly, rejoin the whole.
We know for a fact that Miraak is a Dragonborn. We don't have any records of a Dragonborn existing before him. So he's definitely the first _recorded_ Dragonborn. That, at least, lends some credence to his claim. We also can be pretty sure that he meant "first" in the chronology sense because otherwise it wouldn't be worth noting that the First Dragonborn and the Last Dragonborn were meeting.
Being dragonborn is a blessing of Akatosh. Canonically, the first time this happened was with Alessia. How Miraak got similar powers as the player character in TES V Skyrim is either some other weird stuff, or just bad writing.
I always stood on the idea, that he means "The First Dragonborn" to stand against Alduin, and us being the last, according to the prophecy. As he so boldly claims "I could have slain him myself, but chose otherwise." I think he might mean it chronologically as in: Dragonborn characters, who have opposed Dragon Lordship, or rebelled. But then again, same as for your own theory, no real evidence supporting either versions.
I just get a big dirty feeling from the line about the first and last being something that someone (in my mind, Emil, because he's everyone's favorite whipping boy) just pitched that line because it sounded cool and made it sound like the fight you're about to have has even more "meaning" and they just didn't care about any further implications.
Yeah, so, just one thing. I watched the whole video, and while I agree that Miraak being the first Dragonborn ever just because he said so is improbable, there was a little inconsistency that caught my eye - in considering that when Miraak says "first" he is referring to "serving Hermaeus Mora", how would he know that the other Dragonborn in front of him is going to be the "last" to serve Herma-Mora? Like, he planned to break free from Hermaeus, and he planned to kill the LDB, seeing as he sent cultists to do so. Why would he consider that the LDB would become the last servant of the Daedric Prince? As I write this, maybe, just maybe, I think that Miraak was actually a genius and sent the cultists knowing they'd get murdered, just to attract the last Dragonborn to Solstheim where he could then swap places with them, making this whole debacle make sense in the end. But then this is Bethesda. Do I think they had the foresight to come up with this? No. What I do think they thought was more like: "whoah first confronts last cool cool sell sell."
Because the world will end soon Thats what alduin was supposed to do ages ago even So yes once the world is destroyed nobody can be under hermanos servitude
@@venerablewu8744 that would make sense if Miraak didn't have special dialogue for the Dragonborn if they already beat Alduin. He says "I could have defeated Alduin myself if I wanted to, but I chose another way." So basically this guy that was defeated by a dragon priest during the dragon war is telling me that he could slay the ultimate dragon if he wanted to, but he didn't because reasons. Sounds like a total bullshit claim, right? But still, it's in the game and it makes it impossible for him to actually know that the world was about to end.
@@davidmaddy8382 yeah, I am of that opinion as well. I once saw somewhere that that's how Bethesda is going to get rid of the Last Dragonborn. They defeat Alduin, defeat Harkon, change the course of the Civil War, then go off to Solstheim to face Miraak, where they are then imprisoned by Hermaeus Mora and forced to stay in Apocrypha forever. That way they (Bethesda) don't have to worry about a Demigod with the ancient power of the Thu'um and an army of dragons at their beck and call messing around in their setting.
@@Mustang-fu6on Really??? That be would be unfortunate but I can understand it. There isn’t many that can stop to challenge TLD’s current state. It would be unfair 😂
One reason I think that Miraak could actually be the first dragonborn chronologically speaking or at least see himself that way is the reason for the last dragonborn's existence. According to another theory I heard at one point and buy into fully, Alduin was created to be the world-eater but never had any intention of fulfilling that role, preferring instead to rule over mortals with his dragon cult. The last dragonborn is blessed by Akatosh not to stop Alduin from eating the world but from regaining his power and rebuilding the dragon cult, every reference I can recall to alduin returning to devour the world is extrapolation by characters in game based on his title, with the actual prophecy merely denoting that he will return. If this is the case it would make sense that Miraak could have been blessed by Akatosh in order to kill the wayward Alduin but as he said himself he 'chose a different path'.
I do agree with this. I am not sure where i heard this or what can corroborate it in game but the dragonborn was created by akatosh in response to alduin. Which would mean that the first dragonborn chronologically would have to be during the reign of alduin, which would line up with miraak.
Considering that prior to Al-Esh, Paravant, or Emperess Alessia that there was no deity existing as Akatosh. The ancient Atmora worshipped their time deity Alduin, whereas the Aldmer/Altmer worshipped Auriel their time deity. Al-Esh made up Akatosh to appease their new Nordic friends of Skyrim and to keep the newly freed Nedes united for her Empire. The Nedes believed in the same deities as their Ayleid oppressors through the centuries of slavery. Therefore, we should be more precise when speaking of figures prior to Al-Esh. Also the Amulet of Kings story first speak of Akatosh gifting Al-esh but that is upon her deathbed. Thus Akatosh was most likely added in via Imperial propaganda after her death. Dragonborn understandings will have to be fleshed out more as it really ties into Ancient Atmora and the Dragon cult of those eras.
@@GamerEnthusiast3188 iirc Paarthurnax says something along the lines of 'Alduin's fate was sealed when he claimed the authority that by right belonged to our father Bormahu, Akatosh'. I'm paraphrasing a bunch but that line certainly implies that Alduin is and always has been a separate (though connected) being to the aedric entity that the dragons know as Bormahu which Paarthurnax recognises as being one and the same with Akatosh.
@@Ilzhain Yeah the lore is a bit all over the place in reality. Because we will read certain in game books in Morrowind, Oblivion etc., that is later muddied or at worst completely retconned in Skyrim and ESO. Again from my perspective too many changes were made to the Nords' lore. The ancient tongues for example were able to Shout and it had no connection to dragons or the Dragon Cult prior to ESV. I tend to give more credence to the lore that is tied to the more 'historical', 'cultural' stories. The greybeards tend to tie the voice a bit more towards Kyne/Kynerath. Again honestly I think Bethesda muddied the Nordic lore with Alduin to such a degree that they needed to try to explain the Father of the Dragons, turning Alduin from the Chief Deity to the First Born. They then attempted to make the slight differentiation between Aka and Akatosh. Whereas before it was only Alduin.
Seeing someone engage in TES lore from a historian standpoint is such a delight. I'm tired of people in the TES fandom just taking statements at face-value even if that makes the lore inconsistent with what we actually see in the games. Just look at how quickly people accept Pelinal is a time traveling cyborg and ignore the fact that there are almost no primary sources on his life, as the Song is just a supposed translation made by the Empire itself. No one talks about how the "praise Reman" thing is likely propaganda to legitimize a human Cyrodillic empire.
@@theemerdareloth if you do read up on Pelinal, i seem to recall there's a character involved in that story that *also* lays claim to being a first dragonborn of some kind, and might reinforce or recontextualize this video, depending on when they're around.
I see Penial as time traveling cyborg more as tongue--in-cheek weirdness in the lore. A bit like how the dwemer basically built god, realized the entire universe is just a dream, stopped believing in their own existence, and zero-summed themselves away. Or how Vivec knows that the Nerevarine can load a previous savegame, so no matter how often Vivec fights, his opponent can try again in an infinite amount of timelines and will eventually succeed. Or how Hermaeus Mora has cut content in his library. Content that got cut when the Aedra created Mundus.
I mean, hes an incarnation of a god so its very possible the reman thing was real since the gods of tes go through the past present and future in ever second of the day, at least according to azura and vivec. The cyborg thing i feel like is less real, unless you consider him a cyborg because he doesnt have an organic heart
The story and narrative ending for the Dragonborn DLC does allude to the fact that the player character never canonically leaves Mora's realm after defeating Miraak. So, like so many legendary heroes before them, they'll simply up and disappear from history suddenly from the perspective of the common folk of Tamriel. This of course, also fits Bethesda's typical modus operandi in removing the previous game's player character from the playing field to make room for the next game's narrative. The previous instance of this being "The Hero Of Kvatch" and later the Oblivion Crisis from Elder Scrolls 4. Who would put on the mantle of Sheogorath, and thus slowly over time assimilated that mantle to literally become Sheogorath. Only maintaining small cryptic snippets of their former consciousness from before they did so. Great video, though. Do carry on with this path.
Honestly they shouldn't have made us a dragonborn cuz they're simply too powerful and significant to just disappeare with no trace also miraak said he can escape mora's realm if he absorbed our souls so why can't we do the same? Plus don't you remember that when we visit to apocrypha it's our soul/mind that goes there wich means our body is still in nirn
@@Trelitty11 Yes. The quest begins when you leave for the Horn. That is where I suspect Miraak's quest occurs. This is different for the Shivering Isles, since all the other events have to take place in Oblivion, up to Tiber Septum fighting Dagon. I doubt he would tolerate any Daedric Prince attacking during that time. I think it ends canonically before the Horn is retrieved.
@@shauntempley9757 So basically you could argue that canonically because the quest starts in the beginning phases of the main quest, that our PC gets wrapped up in the events of Solstheim, returns back to Skyrim to still defeat Aludin? While if they really wanted to make it a final end for the last DB the quest for DB gets unlocked after defeating Alduin?
Elder Scrolls lore is one of my favorite interests, one which I have sunk an unbelievable amount of time into studying as a hobby over the last 13 or so years since I've fallen in love with the games. I love it when someone makes a video about the Elder Scrolls lore and not only clearly has researched the material, but also has a theory which is clearly substantiated with said material. While there is nothing directly corroborating that Miraak is the first Dragonborn chronologically over him just taking that as a title, he is the earliest example we have in lore of someone being Dragonborn. Not in recorded history yet, mind you. The first Dragonborn in recorded history, as recognized by most in universe historians, is Alessia. The events of Skyrim are what teach to us players that there was a Dragonborn in history who predates Alessia, he was simply not well known and hardly written about in accepted history. It is perfectly reasonable, and quite likely, that there could be a Dragonborn that predates Miraak as well, we simply have yet to discover them if they even exist at all. Regarding the dialogue that you quoted as the main lynchpin of your theory, I do not think it is conclusive unfortunately. While he refers to Miraak as "First Servant", he is the only one to ever do so directly as every example we have in the lore of him being referred to as First Servant is only in letters related to Sabinius. See "First Servant's Letter Page 1 and 2". Cipher Agrushna also refers to Miraak by that title, but she is only echoing what the player character said, and the player character just read it from the aforementioned letters. When you inquire to her about who the First Servant is, she gives vague reference that he is "merely a legend", but we have no seen these legends and cannot corroborate if she's just being an unreliable narrator. Just as you said, if only one or two sources make a claim to something, that isn't enough to take the claim as factual. Miraak being referred to as First Servant in these instances, while that could be due to a myriad of factors (one of those factors being your really well researched theory) it also does not directly contest the claim that he isn't The First Dragonborn as well as The First Dragonborn Servant of Hermaeus Mora, as both claims can be equally true. My personal opinion on why this is feasible is because Dragons by nature (and by extension Dragonborns) are always in pursuit of power and have been known to, on several occasions, give themselves to Gods in pursuit of this power. See Durnehviir in the Soul Cairn. So it would be reasonable that if a Dragonborn did exist before Miraak, they would have given their service to Hermaeus Mora as Mora was a well known and powerful God. Especially to the Skaal/Proto-Nordic pantheon of those who worshipped Dragons in the cults, who see Mora as one of their most feared and powerful Adversary Gods. I don't think that any of this point directly supports the claim that he is the First Dragonborn nor does it support the claim he wasn't and was simply just using it as a title, as the answer could simply be that Dragonborns who predate Hermaeus Mora simply didn't know of him, were too scared of him, or were too smart to be enslaved, etcetera, but it in my opinion the point is enough of a refutation to at least cast doubt on the idea that the letters are completely authoritative. I am sorry for the word salad. English is not my Native language and I apologize if any of this was hard to read. I love this video and how well researched it is and how much it made me think about this topic more indepth than I have in the past. I personally am of the opinion, after hearing your points and thinking on my own points, that Miraak is either The First Dragon, The First Servant, both, or neither. Keep up the great work man, and I can't wait for the next video 👍😊
Thanks for the great comment! Glad you enjoyed the video, and I'm always happy to hear other opinions that may differ from mine. I really like the extra details you added about the First Sevant stuff.
@@theemerdareloth Thank you for the response! I admit I had to do a bit of ad hoc research on my own as your points were really solid. I hope you have a great day. Can't wait to see more of these types of lore videos where you give your theories and also I'm super excited for the next attribute tier list. Those have quickly become my go to watch whenever I'm at work or school haha
Mirak was alive during the dragon war which is when Kyne granted humans the ability to shout. So it makes sense that the first Dragonborn would pop up around the same time.
He was alive well before the dragon war most likely. If he was alive during the Dragon War he likely would've been the leader, seeing as he could actually kill dragons permantly.
I always saw it as he’s the first recorded Dragonborn, the first to realize their power. There likely were several before him, but they didn’t fully awaken.
@@thomasfrye6335 very possible like who's to say we are the last dragonborn whos to say a new one appears to maybe create a new empire or if it's a elven dragonborn a empire of elven creation
Absolutely make more of this type of video! They inspire me more than most others to play the core games, TESL, etc. It adds depth to everything, and in doing so makes playing much more enjoyable. Thanks for taking the time to do this!
damn impressive video. using a New Testament scholar explanation for historical documents, statements, and applying a method for understanding accuracy was a brilliant touch. you're take on the meanings of "first" and "last" is also cleaver. please keep it up!
One of the things I love the most about elder scrolls is stuff like this. The community is, in a sense, part of the universe taking evidence from the games and forming theories and ideas based on it and then discussing them together. The players are also the scholars and researchers that can occasionally be found in books in game.
I have a hope and prediction. If you keep going as you are, when Elder Scrolls 6 releases in 17 years or so, your channel is going to explode. I just hope you don’t forget about Legends in all that newfound fame. Love the Vid!
My take on Miraak being the first _is_ a secret third option. See, if we take that the Last Dragonborn succeeding in sending Alduin back to Akatosh is how this happens, it is unlikely that the Last Dragonborn will be the literal last in history as you said, but that's still the title that one specific Dragon Born has. The Last Dragonborn is called that because of how hopeless a task it seemed to be putting down Alduin; if the LDB didn't succeed, that would be the last to be _known._ No other Dragonborn would survive Alduin's reign, not with how troublesome those who are Dragon Born tend to be. It's the same for Miraak over all. He probably wasn't the literal first ever mortal to be born with a dragon soul. He was just the first guy who figured out his gift well enough to cause a ruckus. He was probably the reason the dragons even have a word for this specific case, at least. Just the first of any note, not the first literally.
first video I've seen from your channel and I love it! you feel like a legit historian and I'm glad that you understand what it feels like others don't, which is that elder scrolls lore is explicitly shown to be inaccurate and biased at times just like real history! also with Mora being the best daedric prince I'm glued to my seat whenever anything even somewhat related to him is said so that helps
I think the most likely thing is that Miraak was the first one to realize the power of dragon-born. the player doesn't even know until we kill a dragon, i think Mirrak was the first to have the powers of a dragons born, if not the first too be given the blood; the first Dragon-Born but not the first Dovakin. He may have discovered this ability after his betrayal, upon killing his own first dragon.
Miraak being the first dragonborn to serve herma mora implies that there were others, except the player character of skyrim replaces miraak making miraak the only dragonborn to serve herma mora up until the events of the dlc so the ESO note wouldnt really make sense if the word "first" meant the first dragonborn to serve herma mora. Unless there were others that served him but never replaced Miraak which wouldnt make sense because if herma mora did have more than one dragonborn he wouldve wanted to replace miraak as soon as possible because miraak's been trying to escape since forever. it would make more sense that the "first" in the ESO note referred to miraak being the first dragonborn since dragon borns in general are very famous people and they would be easily recognizable but that would imply that the guy who wrote it lived long enough to see multiple dragonborns being born and we don't really know the frequency of when akatosh decides to create dragonborns It's a cool theory but i dont buy it. cool video tho i liked it
i really enjoyed this it makes others think more about the implications on how everything works, you keep at it i cant wait to listen to more theories and assumptions you come up next
As always, loved the video and definitely appreciate a fresh take on some (fairly) stale lore. I somewhat agree with you in my own headcanon of the "First Dragonborn" statement being a lie, but for different reasons. "Dovahkiin" is generally defined as a mortal with the blood and/or soul of a dragon, which becomes interesting if one leans into the idea about Ysgrammor, the Five Hundred Companions, etc from Atmora were actually Dragons - it's been awhile since I read about this theory and I can't remember if it's based on Kirkbride out-of-lore texts or whether it's heavily implied in an ingame text. Regardless what that leads me to consider is the fact that the early Nord settlers were all either dragons, dragons who gained humanoid forms, or somewhere in between. These dragon-nord people would then fit theoretically fit the definition of a Dovahkiin - a mortal with the blood/soul of a dragon. It's not a huge stretch to assume that those such as Miraak and Vahlok would also carry this early Dragonborn blood of the Atmorran settlers and thus Miraak is most certainly not the First Dragonborn, not even the first Dovahkiin Dragon Priest. Anyway, this is all my own personal theory but it's certainly an interesting discussion about who actually was the first Dragonborn, especially considering the pre-Skyrim lore of Alessia being the first to have the Dragon Blood. Either way, loved the video and please keep the lore content coming :)
The lore in ESO is all over the map, in both quality, purpose, and logic. So I find a singular note like this to be unconvincing. To the point that I prefer the mystery, over the new lore, in this case. But I appreciate the video. Good stuff.
You did this three months ago, but it came across my timeline tonight, and I just wanna say I really appreciate the academic way you engage with the material- it's completely delightful. At first (ha) I thought the first/last thing was indeed totally chronological, but you made so many good points that you've won me over to believing your theory has legs. (I was generally of the assumption that our character was called the "last" dragonborn because the prophecy is ambiguous about if the last dragonborn kills Alduin at all- therefore, if Alduin eats the world and a new age begins per the really niche TES lore about kalpas, we are the last dragonborn of that cycle. ETA: Or, if you really want to be dark, the last dragonborn in the world, assuming that the kalpa cycle lore is just bs.) The holes in Miraak as the "first", though, are great enough that I do agree with you that "first" is definitely not necessarily chronological.
Yeah, you totally convinced me. What a revolution in my understanding of this characterr. And I love the channel, thanks for putting in that time and effort
At first I thought this all would be very underwhelming, but having the prophecy mention what is probably canonically the last things the Dragonborn does and their ultimate fate is quite fitting.
There's a theory somewhere out there (I don't remember who I heard it from) that Hermaeus Mora did something to Miraak or gave him knowledge that allowed him to become dragonborn. Perhaps it was knowledge plucked from the future and used in the current timeline for Miraak to steal the title of "First Dragonborn". Similar to how people theorize that Mankar Camoran used Mehrunes Razor to make himself Dragonborn in Paradise in order to wear the Amulet of Kings.
0:49 I thought the undead dragon priests in general weren't liches, just very powerful draugrs and the named ones are only more powerful thanks to the dragons bestowing them masks, which they were named after. Also, isn't the quest with Hevnoraak is about we trying to prevent him to becoming a lich? It would be weird if they were all liches except Hevnoraak who is some reason isn't one at the time the Dragonborn is exploring Valthume while all the others are.
Fantastic video! Love the scholarly approach to the Elder Scrolls, and I love your channel name! EDIT: And the way you highlight text is perfect. It helps me glean information quickly and efficiently.
it is on the wiki, legends and confirmed by devs that miraak is indeed the first dragonborn. It may not sit right but that does not mean it is not a fact.
1. I never expected to see Bart Ehrman in a video game lore video. 2. My college Lit professor asked why we should objectively trust a character's POV. That stuck with me.
By First Servant, i think it's supposed mean that Miraak was the first mortal Servant of Hermaeus Mora rather than the First Dragonborn Servant. It's said that Miraak is considered a myth even in Apocrypha and nobody there knows about it Dragonborn status so with that context it doesn’t make sense to them to think he's supposed to be the first dragonborn servant but does make sense if he's considered to be the first mortal servant since they know he's mortal from the Merathic Era (the Orc Cypher who gives you the quest says this). Another thing i consider about Miraak's claim about being the First Dragonborn is valid is because he was in Apocrypha itself for thousands of years learning which has knowledge from the past and the future. And the fact that other mortals of servants of Hermaeus Mora being shown to be incredibly knowledgeable on most subjects. For example a Servant of Mora without having prior knowledge of a person or an object can be be instantly knowledgeable about it's entire history by just looking at it for the first time. Others have shown the ability to see the threads of fate itself and even manipulate it in a smaller scale. Seekers are also shown to incredibly knowledgeable about universe and it's workings. They are the ones who write black books and have the ability to remember everything they read to a point where mortal servants of Hermaeus Mora looks at them at awe. And Miraak has the ability to command. With all those in mind i highly doubt Miraak's claim of being the First is wrong because if he really wasn't he and most others on Apocrypha would have already known that due to their background.
Well, my main points here are really: 1.) We don't know what he meant by First (i.e. First to do what) 2.) Just because there are no Dragonborns we know of prior, doesn't mean that Miraak is the first in the timeline In my eyes, there are too many unknowns (Akavir, unrecorded history, etc...) to conclude that Miraak is historically the first. I like your ideas here though, but I don't think they solve the problem of Miraak's meaning/intent. I also don't see what him having the Bend Will shout has to do with the prior stuff, but I may be misreading what you mean.
@@theemerdareloth 1) First Servant seem pretty straight forward. He's first mortal servant of Hermaeus Mora. If you ask a cypher about First Servant they'll not tell you that he's the first dragonborn servant because they don't know about his dragonborn status. By First Dragonborn. He's the first mortal to have the blood and soul of a dragon. It's isn't about the actions he did or would do. 2) Sure we might not know whether he's the first or not because of the limited knowledge we have but my point is someone like Miraak definitely would given his background. If there were other dragonborns before him he would have definitely learned much about that during his time in Apocrypha and so would know that he was not the first dragonborn that existed on nirn. So I think his claim of being the first is pretty solid in that context.
@@Sanguivore Skyrim's Official Guide Book and Miraak's own dialogue hint that he was destined to slay Alduin. >So you have slain Alduin... Well done. I could have slain him myself, back when I walked the earth, but I chose a different path. Note in the second sentence where he says he chose a different path. As in originally he had his path/destiny laid out to him and while it was within fate, he was he was not bound by it and chose to walk his own.
I am so glad I watched this, it always struck me as weird that miraak would be the first dragonborn like as a kid I was confused about it cuz I thought the first dragonborn (chronologically) would be the first dragonborn ruler person that akatosh blessed or something I honestly don't really remember. Either way really cool vid :3
This is an amazing theory and I love how you’re using textual and historiographical approaches to the elder scrolls! Gotta get those supporting primary and secondary sources, especially from non-biased sources. I also love the concept of the anthropological context of the term “first” may differ based on what the original culture meant by this. Even if Miraak truly believes he is “the first dragonborn” that may mean he is the most powerful or best like in an orchestra or army! Love the theory!
It is nice to hear someone looking at this well loved game and it's lore with an approach which is more rigorous in checking for validity. Thank you; I like it. The elephant in the room, so to speak, is that as this is a work of fiction, owned by a legal entity and written over many years by differing authors, the lore will be whatever those in charge of it decide it will be. And the fans that have read and grown to love the story will, of course, push those in charge to respect what has already been established. Just like with the Witcher, Harry Potter, and the grandaddy of them all, Lord of the Rings. Looking forward to more of your vids.
I'd find it strange that an Elder Scroll would use 'first and last' specifically in reference to service to Hermeaus Mora, but then again those pieces of paper have probably said much weirder things.
Describing the Protagonist of Skyrim only in relation to when they served Hermaeus Mora, is in my opinion a gros overstatement of this service, in the grand scheme of things, diminishing their service to akatosh, Talos and the world. I think it is far more likely, that the Protagonist is indeed the last Dragonborn ever, or that he would have been the last, if he had not succeeded in stopping Alduin. However, if it is true, that Miraak is the onlyone to truely describe himself as the first Dragonborn, I can see, how he would describe himself that, meaning foremost among Dragonborns, as a Sign of his Arrogance. Possibly he might even describe the Protagonist as the last Dragonborn, meaning the least among them, as an insult. He might also mean first to serve Mora, because that is defining for his character. I also have a diffrent perspective to offer, that Akatoshs blessing is not distributed linearly in time, but that from the timeless perspective of a God, Miraak could be the first and the Protagonist be the last to be blessed as Dragonborn, while People in the Past, present and future, might be blessed inbetween them, only in a cosmic sense.
I honestly haven't questioned his claim before. As soon as I did, I thought of First as in "The main lead of the faction". The First Servant could be a servant who earned that title who commands more autonomy, someone the rest of the servants go to for questions and answers regarding their job. In that sense, Miraak could have self-claimed the title of "The Dragonborn who are the most powerful and prominent in current existence whom others should look up to".
I'm so glad I found this video cuz I recently saw a video where someone visited apocrypha and defeated miraak. In that video he calls himself the first Dragonborn. I question if that was actually true cuz I don't remember any lore book or script saying he was. Awesome lore and great video and format!
I've always thought realms of Oblivion, especially Hermaeus Mora's are pockets aside from time (given that Akatosh's influence would not be present within, as well as all the texts Hermaeus has from both the past and the future timelines of Nirn). If we're assuming that Miraak became Dragonborn within Apocrytha, with guidance of Hermaeus Mora, there would not be any sensical chronoligical support for him being the First. We've had Elder Scrolls antagonists and many other characters be outright wrong about certain pieces of information (Mankar Camoran has called Coldharbour the realm of Meridia, likely attributed to his insanity). Miraak is likely not insane, but there is definitely a lot of unfounded pride in himself that seemingly comes from nowhere. Aside from being Dragonborn, Miraak historically has done nothing but lose and is practically imprisoned in Apocrytha. It may sound silly, but I genuinely think calling himself the first (maintaining his pride) may be what's keeping him from going insane from Mora's influence + all the Ls he's taken.
I don't think Miraak was actually the first dragonborn, because then the story of Saint Alessia is just a big lie. Writing this I realized that if there were actually dragonborn before Miraak, the story of Saint Alessia being the first dragonborn isn't true, which aligns what the video says, Miraak is the first dragonborn to serve Hermaeus Mora therefore Alessia is the first Dragonborn who was a human emperor, or something like that.
I don't think there's any mention of dragonborn having a more powerful thuum, just a more convenient method of learning them. There were many powerful tounges in those days, judging from the nord conquest of Morowind.
I feel like a detail that not a lot of people bring up about the people of skyrim, being able to use shouts without being either a dragon priest or dragon born, is the fact that the draugr can use them. This alone should show that studying to achieve the thu'um is possible.
A little late to the party on the Feedback, but these are my favorite kind of videos, If not longer. I’m sure that these are some of the best videos, performance wise for you, especially longer ones with Ad roll. It’s just that after over a decade, it’s hard to find new topics to talk about for a long time. Me, like many others are willing to gobble up whatever we can get, willing this editing and research stays the same
About LDB serving Mora. I wonder how the Daedric Princes are going to share, because LDB can potentially be a champion for all of them, or at least all of the ones used in Skyrim. And if LDB is a werewolf or a vampire, imo, Hircine or Molag Bal have a far more substantial claim to their soul than the old Herma-Mora.
I did not expect to see Bart Ehrman right at the start. I've been on a Richard Carrier binge and watched this as a pallet cleanser. Thought I clicked the wrong video.
Interesting angle and theory. Can't say I'm completely onboard, as it just comes across like a very opaque and roundabout way to say it refers to first and last ((servant of Herma Mora)) without saying so directly or even really hinting to it. Especially the Elder Scroll prophecy has no mention of Mora, yet speaks of the dragonborn being the last. It's a reach. Not a bad reach, but a reach nonetheless. Regardless, I really enjoyed the video. Great presentation of the content and your ideas and methods. Would love to see you do more.
My personal interpretation is that it is actually as simple as stated. Miraak was the first granted the dragonblood/ soul of a dragon, and the Skyrim main character is the last. Miraak was destined to slay Alduin. I believe that is why he was granted the dragonblood. He turned from that path, and Alduin's slaying was postponed with the use of the Elder Scroll at the Throat of the World. The Last Dragonborn was granted the dragonblood in the time when Alduin was sent to, and by choosing to walk that path he would do what the first dragonborn was destined to do - thereby becoming the last dragonborn. As in the last to be given the task of slaying Alduin, as that was the inital purpose of the dragonborn. I'm keeping this short. I could go on about Alduin as the aspect of end of time, the Aka oversoul, the dragonborn emperors as a separate thing, but also the likelihood of the Empire not returning to what it was, thereby also making it true that there were no more dragonborn rulers, etc.. But that is the essence of it: First, because he got the job. Last, because he finished the job.
I know you’re being sarcastic (I assume, I suppose) but this is part of a hobby horse of mine. The two narrative devices I loathe, the unreliable narrator and time manipulation. I can agree there are situations where both can be used to great effect, but more often than not, they are used to escape corners the developers wrote themselves into. My old writing mentor would describe writing a story like building a ship. First, there’s the superstructure. The wood beams that create the shape of the ship and to which everything is supported. This is the basic laws of the setting, the world-building, the rules by which the characters must act. It can be anything other than self-contradictory. To this is added the story’s background and character backstories, the decks. Last, all the rest of the elements specific to the tale you’re spinning, which make up the hull. Where the ship goes and what happens to it is the story. Too often, writers want to change the ship’s superstructure as it is sailing. This breaks the narrative flow and removes the reader from the setting. Simply adding Dragon Breaks to explain self-inflicted contradictions is an example of this. It makes the ship - the story - seem arbitrary and inconsequential.
@@TheSpicyLegi actually really like an unrealiable narrator when done correctly. I love the way that the elder scrolls handles it at least, reading the books and notes from the view point of the character who doesnt have all of the information is excellent world building IMO. It is a fine line though, when its used as a crutch for poor planning or writing its very obvious
@@GaMeRfReAkLIVE What is the limiting principle? Perhaps the writer of the note is lying about the existence of, say, Pelinal Whitestrake. He did so to cover up the fact that Alessia was just a random girl who led a failed revolution against the Cyrodilic peoples, and made up a group of Highland elves as boogeymen to frighten peasants and slaves into joining her army. Am I wrong? Well, no. Any evidence you provide I will dismiss as unreliable narrator, and we can really have no lore discussion whatsoever, as we can’t even agree on basic facts. The lore notes you refer to are presumed true until evidence is provided to believe the note is not true. That’s not unreliable narrator. I agree that having lore presented from a point of view - even a biased one - is very interesting and a good writing tool.
@@TheSpicyLeg Well this is exactly how it works in real life because an unreliable narrator is a real thing in our world. Not to mention there are more ways to affirm if something is true or not when considering the fact that it's within the realms of possibility that it's not, using your example we know the existence of pelinal is true because we seen him, we know highland eleves are real from their architecture, undead, from sources that arent imperial and the King we see in eso. The unreliable narrator is more used in cases where a person is making a statement or suggesting something to be true without any other points of views or external evidence that isn't just accounts or "it was revealed to me in a dream" type shit. Take for example that new book added into eso which is written much later after the fact suggesting atmora's doom was caused by a falmer mage. When reading it, it's quite clear that zenimax isn't saying this is what happend, they're offering us a possibility with the understanding that the reader knows this may not be true and may not be convinced of it, or maybe they will. That's the beauty of the unreliable narrator imo
Tl:dr “First Dragonborn” could mean: The 1st chronologically An honorific title I.e first as in the most powerful or “first among the Dragonborn” Some other third meaning. This main issue is Dragonborn could have had different meanings throughout history, as we can’t confirm if people like Reman or Alesia could absorb dragon souls. To me it seems like capital D Dragonborn are always significant to history in some way, with TLD being one such main character. People with dragon blood will probably exist after TLD, but likely won’t ever be in the spotlight in the same way again.
I always took Miraaks's words as "First among the Dragonborn". Like how sometimes Saint Peter and in turn Popes are referred to as "First among the Apostles". I never really delved super deep into the Skyrim and Dragonborn lore as I did with Morrowind but I just thought he was the leader of the Dragonborn (could be meaning first chronologically or not) and called "First" in that sense.
I think all we can infer from Vahlok not being able to shout is that he did not. The player doesn't experience their inability, they only experience that they did not. And as you said, absense of evidence is not evidence of absense. It may very well be that Vahlok simply chose not to for reasons unclear.
i think the claim is right that he is the first and i can explain why in a bit of a shorter time frame. mainly we know that alduin was suppose to "eat" the world and end the cycle, leading the universe to be born a new. we know that this has happened several times (or at least its implied to have happened). miraak's claim to be the first could simply be that he is the first in THIS cycle and that we the player character are the last of this cycle. being a servant to hermaus mora could give him access to information that we the player character could never access such as how he knew who we are, our estimated kill count of dragons, and if we beat alduin. so he would definitely know if we were the last or just one of many more to come. all im saying is that its easy to buy into the idea that we are simply the last dragonborn for this cycle and that when alduin returns (which we know for a fact he WILL) he will then fulfill his destiny of once again ending the cycle and bringing forth a new one where again dragon blood with be gifted to those who are worthy. its a stretch but its the most simplistic answer that ties in exactly with how bethesda structured the franchise. also it could be that miraak is saying hes the first to realize his ability to steal the souls of dragons and was the first to actually USE that ability to fight them. there could have been many before him they never knew they could slay a dragon and harness the power of their souls and its just that miraak figured it out and rolled with it. and let us not forget that to be a dragonborn you must have the blood of a dragon within you and as the game states OVER AND OVER again that the ability to absorb the soul of a dragon and shout with ease is what identifies you as a dragonborn. so again, miraak could have been near a dragon that died and absorbed its soul and realized that he is indeed that of legend and decided to use that power for evil. its not that hes the first dragonborn but the first to fully utilize the power he had and take the title. if anyone wants to debate this further i am more than happy to discuss it because this is honestly a fun topic and could lead to many new understandings of the lore.
i just wanted to add that the dragonborn absorbs the souls of the dragons they slay and that those ones cannot be resurrected even by alduin himself and his immense power. because of the age that miraak lived in where people lived day and night serving the dragons its easy to assume nobody ever tried until the war started and miraak just happened to be the one there and discovered he could absorb their souls. its also likely that when alduin couldnt resurrect the ones he absorbed he started to understand that power he had and what he could be capable of. its no doubt that miraak is and will always be evil, he was never a good person at any point in his life. but even he had to have known that if he could get to aludin there was a chance to absorb his soul and harness near ultimate power which would have drove him to wanting to face off against him... i will also add that even if he had thought this it wouldnt have mattered. when we beat alduin we didnt absorb his soul, it went back to akatosh where one day alduin will of course return to do his damn job and there wont be a dragon born to stop him. so even if miraak fought alduin and even if he won, all it would have done was exactly what we did but many years sooner. just figured i would add that because im a doofus and forgot to mention it.
About the theories on whether Miraak was the first to be blessed by Akotosh, I think the fact that he's from the Merethic Era shows that he either predates or is a contemporary of Saint Alessia, the first human monarch to have ruled an empire from Cyrodiil, the earliest confirmed Dragonborn.
It's actually super fitting that Miraak isn't the first dragonborn and makes him calling you a liar (or rather his cultists) all the sweeter as he himself is a liar
I always thought it was funny that whenever people examine lore from different games in a series they really rarely consider that the character is just lying or wrong
Miraak's claim about being the first Dragonborn has never sat quite right with me. In trying to corroborate his claim, I was unable to find anything that backed it up, and discovered what could perhaps be a whole new lens to view Miraak through.
If you think I'm off-base or wrong here, please let me know. I'm totally open to criticism, and I'd be glad to be proven wrong, hence the "(Probably)" in the title.
Thank you,
-Dareloth
Another interesting little tidbit is there is Canonical albeit sparse evidence supporting that Akivir and Atmora was once part of a Great Continent in the Great North of Nirn, Mundus, or whatever else it's called. Due to Volcanic Activity, Wars of the Gods, the Ancient Elves, or something else, parts of the Continent split off. Like you said not much is known about the Ancient History, and Bethesda hasn't really touched upon it.
my devil's-advocate answer I have for you is that perhaps Mirrak predates the gift of dragonblood being bestowed in mortals, and as a result the knowledge about being dragonborn was part of the "thrown away knowledge" of the universe, and guess who so happens to be the god of the unused, leftover, or thrown away knowledge about reality? Hermaeus Mora. I believe that Mirrak served the dragons well, received some power and was maybe even taught some shouts by dragons, but Hermaeus mora shows mirrak the secret to learning dragon shouts as fast as a dragonborn can (whether or not he actually gave Mirrak dragon blood is beyond me, but I bet Hermaeus mora knew how it is that those with the dragon blood can learn shouts so easily and he showed Mirrak that) and on top of that teaches him the bend will words. Ultimately I believe Mirrak is *effectively* the first dragonborn since he has all the powers of a dragonborn, but he does NOT have true dragon blood in his veins and he is not destiny-bound to destroy alduin.
I don't think Mirrak is telling the truth when he tells the last dragonborn that Mirrak could have killed Alduin if he wanted to, as I don't think Mirrak knew dragonrend or even knew about it (unless all mirrak had to do was kill alduin normally but in sovengarde and the player uses dragonrend there just to bring him to the ground) and also he 100% would have tried to kill aldiun during his first rule of solthseim cause aldiun would have been one of the only threats to him to exist at the time.
@@jansonshrock2859 Interesting Hypothesis. Got any more? I ask because you seem to have good Critical Thinking skills and coming up with more benefits all of the Skyrim Community.
@@OleDirtyMacSanchez For mirrak specifically, my other hypothesis is that maybe there was a dragon break that went unrecorded when mortals first received the gift of the dragon blood (something to do with the blood of creatures outside of time being put into creatures bound by time causes time to break) so technically theres multiple first dragonborns
@@jansonshrock2859 Technically the Gods and even the Deadric Gods are Dragon Breaks themselves. They're very existence is a Dragon Break. Pretty sure they could make Dragon Breaks at will, but it probably takes alot of power to do.
I actually kind of like how The Elder Scrolls has characters who are straight-up lying. Yes, it's an easy way for them to justify retcons, but it's cool how it also adds some realism to the mythos.
Agreed! The “unreliability” of some of the characters really makes The Elder Scrolls come alive for me.
Just like how early medieval kings would claim Augustus or Caesar as their direct ancestor
You're telling me, Ma'iq lies? Pppfffttt.... what's next, nazeem also lies?
@@siyzerix FECK OFF PEASENT NAZEEM WOULD NEVER SEE YOU HANGING AROUND THE CLOUD DISTRICT
Hermeus Mora would know if he was or not
Ever since Miraak casually says he could have easily beaten Alduin but chose a different path I knew he was a liar.
"I could've beaten Alduin... if I wanted to."
Same energy as "I have a girlfriends, she just goes to a different school, you wouldn't know her."
Ever since I had to spend hours googling to learn to crouch and hide and use conjurations to let himself get tired out and die because he’d glitch if I even hit him ONCE, I doubted his claims. 🤣
Miraak wasn't lying about that. He never said he could have (easily) slain Alduin, just that he could have slain him, he straight up says that Alduin could have been troublesome to him. Given we know Miraak is a Dragonborn one of the only being capable of slaying Alduin and more than likely knew about dragonrend and was in process of recieveing knowledge from Hermaeus Mora he wouldn't be lying because he was def capable or at least qualified to beat Alduin during that time.
@@lethal5383problem is Herma mora didn’t have knowledge of dragonrend since it was created by the 3 nord heroes only after they had asked miraak for help and he said no .
Miraak: "The first dragonborn, meets the last dragonborn."
Player: "That's a nice argument, Miraak, why don't you back it up with a source?"
Miraak: "My source is that I made it the fuck up."
Nice Maxor MGSR reference
@@tactile2878 🤣🤣🤣 gold
Miraak: My source is APA7
bruh its a game why would they make a character like that, hes obviously not lying
@@infebris you haven't been in the Elder Scrolls community for long have you?
What I always personally thought was that Miraaks claim of being the first dragonborn was misleading but not particularly a lie in a sense. We have to recall what a dragonborn is by nature, they aren't just divinely blessed mortals, they are dragon slayers. The only mortals who can truely and completely slay a dragon due to their ability to absorb dragon souls and steal their powers. It's possible what Miraak meant by "first dragonborn" was that he was the first dragon slayer. This would also explain his falling out with the dragon cult. As a member of a cult who worships and serves the dragonkind, the act of dragon slaying alone would be seen as blasphemy, then to go even further and absorb the dragons soul and steal its knowledge and power which rendered the slain dragon unressurrectable even to Alduin. That would be the seen as the ultimate heresy by the cult. It would also explain why Hakon and the others sought Miraaks help defeating Alduin. They wanted the aid of the first true dragonslayer who just might have the raw power and natural disposition to oppose and defeat Alduin.
There is nothing in lore that states that a Dragonborn MUST be a dragon slayer. It is stated , quite clearly, that a Dragonborn is any mortal ' born with the blood of a Dragon'. Tiber Septim was a Dragonborn but he never killed a single Dragon. Even the stupid guards of Whiterun knew that.
exactly what i was thinking- there could have been many dragonborns before miraak, but he was the first to be recognised as one by his dragon slaying. (unlike like the royal family of the empire who were dragonborn but never killed a dragon)
I believe talos would be considered the true first dragonborn. Imperial emperor's were dragonborns technically as the dragon blood ran through the septim dynasty up until the 4th era
@@richardprice1378 That's really dumb. There are many confirmed Dragonborn well before Tiber Septim/whatever you want to call whoever became Talos.
@@richardprice1378There are a lot of confirmed dragonborns before tiber septim
Dragon priests not being able to shout in game is such an oversight 🤦
It's ridiculous, honestly
Dragon Priests aren't dragonborn so learning shouts would be really difficult and take years and years to learn. Their masks have never been stated to give them the ability to shout, but it's known that they draw most of their power from their masks to rule over their subjects. So personally, I think just because they have the makes doesn't mean they should be able to shout
Then again, countless Draugr shout so you may be on to something 😅
@@ElucidYTThing is, Thu'Um was a VERY big deal in ancient nordic culture, it was essential for war and was central in religious matter as well, so the fact that in game the religious leaders of the era cannot use it, even though they got to that level of power after literally decades of mastery is really weird.
The only explanation that makes some bit of sense is that their masks prevent them from using their voice freely and thus cannot use Thu'Um because the Dragons didn't want to have such powerful humans around that could actually challenge them so they took away their Shout in a way in exchange for some other powers through the masks which made them more subservient
Except that miraak has a mask and he can shout but Vahlok the Jailer is a maskless dragon priest, and he won't shout. Despite being known to have the ability.
I think it's clear from Morokei that they can shout as far as lore is concerned, but due to game limitations, they are not able
@@ElucidYTThere are draugr that can shout, likely because they were dragon cultists who dedicated their lives to the dragons.
To be fair, "the last dragonborn" sounds better than "the latest dragonborn".
The Latest Dragonborn 2: Imp Stool Boogaloo
or even "The Current Last Dragonborn", assuming, "There can be only one" {cue highlander theme}
@@Koumajutsu and we can't even be sure about that.
@@HappyBeezerStudios we can be absolutely sure thats not true. Miraak was the first dragon born, and he never died.
Therefore, there has ALWAYS been atleast 2 dragonborn, from Alessia all the way through Martin Septim.
Literally thousands of years of 2 concurrent dragonborn.
@@dillongage if I REALLY wanted to be an asshole i would argue that technically miraak was in a plane of oblivion so he didnt count as a dragonborn existing in the world
I think the two main problems here are that:
1. You've found no real evidence of your new conclusion; while this would be fine in theory, you actively dismissed direct testimony for not being backed by this.
2. Your new conjecture falls apart for the exact same counterpoints you made to discredit the original claim. We have no evidence that, if Dovahkiin existed before Miraak, that none of them ever served Mora. As you pointed out in your original deconstruction of Miraaks first title; the "First" in "First Servant" doesn't necessarily pertain to chronology. In fact; it seems significantly less likely in this scenario. "First" in the note doesn't even refer to Miraak as a Dragonborn, and the liklihood that Miraak is a chrononical first servant of a creature as ancient as Mora is dismissable in it's own right. This notes reference to Miraak as "The First Servant" is due to Miraak being the "Primary" or most significant servant. No other interpretation makes sense.
As such it's not reasonable to use this as 'evidence' of Miraak being the first *dragonborn* servant specifically. (He is, but only by virute of being the first Dragonborn).
The simplest answer here is obviously the correct one. The Dragonborn came about as a means to settle an imbalance within Akatosh's presence on Nirn. Prophecised to slay Alduin, the First Dragonborn was born as a disloyal servant of the Dragons; however corrupted by Mora and eventually taken by him, new Dragonborns arose through the ages in wait for Alduins return. Until finally the deed was done, Alduin was defeated and the need for a Dragonborn left the world. With the largest fragment of Akatosh returned, the smaller fragments intended to defeat and recapture Alduin no longer serve a purpose and similarly, rejoin the whole.
This is by far the best counterargument I’ve seen for the claims in the video
We know for a fact that Miraak is a Dragonborn. We don't have any records of a Dragonborn existing before him. So he's definitely the first _recorded_ Dragonborn. That, at least, lends some credence to his claim. We also can be pretty sure that he meant "first" in the chronology sense because otherwise it wouldn't be worth noting that the First Dragonborn and the Last Dragonborn were meeting.
He's an imitation of a dragonborn created by Herma Mora's perversions, not of the blood of Akatosh.
Being dragonborn is a blessing of Akatosh. Canonically, the first time this happened was with Alessia. How Miraak got similar powers as the player character in TES V Skyrim is either some other weird stuff, or just bad writing.
@@VoFALT where are you getting that from?
@@Akkleptos miraak predates alessia
I always stood on the idea, that he means "The First Dragonborn" to stand against Alduin, and us being the last, according to the prophecy. As he so boldly claims "I could have slain him myself, but chose otherwise." I think he might mean it chronologically as in: Dragonborn characters, who have opposed Dragon Lordship, or rebelled. But then again, same as for your own theory, no real evidence supporting either versions.
This is definitely it. But there could be more ancient nord dragonborns in atmora or men in akavir
I just get a big dirty feeling from the line about the first and last being something that someone (in my mind, Emil, because he's everyone's favorite whipping boy) just pitched that line because it sounded cool and made it sound like the fight you're about to have has even more "meaning" and they just didn't care about any further implications.
@@DioBrandoWRYYYYYY my opinion exactly, mate. Thanks for putting it out there.
Yeah, so, just one thing. I watched the whole video, and while I agree that Miraak being the first Dragonborn ever just because he said so is improbable, there was a little inconsistency that caught my eye - in considering that when Miraak says "first" he is referring to "serving Hermaeus Mora", how would he know that the other Dragonborn in front of him is going to be the "last" to serve Herma-Mora? Like, he planned to break free from Hermaeus, and he planned to kill the LDB, seeing as he sent cultists to do so. Why would he consider that the LDB would become the last servant of the Daedric Prince?
As I write this, maybe, just maybe, I think that Miraak was actually a genius and sent the cultists knowing they'd get murdered, just to attract the last Dragonborn to Solstheim where he could then swap places with them, making this whole debacle make sense in the end. But then this is Bethesda. Do I think they had the foresight to come up with this? No. What I do think they thought was more like: "whoah first confronts last cool cool sell sell."
Because the world will end soon
Thats what alduin was supposed to do ages ago even
So yes once the world is destroyed nobody can be under hermanos servitude
@@venerablewu8744 that would make sense if Miraak didn't have special dialogue for the Dragonborn if they already beat Alduin.
He says "I could have defeated Alduin myself if I wanted to, but I chose another way." So basically this guy that was defeated by a dragon priest during the dragon war is telling me that he could slay the ultimate dragon if he wanted to, but he didn't because reasons. Sounds like a total bullshit claim, right? But still, it's in the game and it makes it impossible for him to actually know that the world was about to end.
@@Mustang-fu6onYh I think canonically you’re meant to beat aldiun before first meeting miraak cuz then the prophecy can be aligned to your actions.
@@davidmaddy8382 yeah, I am of that opinion as well. I once saw somewhere that that's how Bethesda is going to get rid of the Last Dragonborn. They defeat Alduin, defeat Harkon, change the course of the Civil War, then go off to Solstheim to face Miraak, where they are then imprisoned by Hermaeus Mora and forced to stay in Apocrypha forever. That way they (Bethesda) don't have to worry about a Demigod with the ancient power of the Thu'um and an army of dragons at their beck and call messing around in their setting.
@@Mustang-fu6on Really??? That be would be unfortunate but I can understand it. There isn’t many that can stop to challenge TLD’s current state. It would be unfair 😂
One reason I think that Miraak could actually be the first dragonborn chronologically speaking or at least see himself that way is the reason for the last dragonborn's existence. According to another theory I heard at one point and buy into fully, Alduin was created to be the world-eater but never had any intention of fulfilling that role, preferring instead to rule over mortals with his dragon cult. The last dragonborn is blessed by Akatosh not to stop Alduin from eating the world but from regaining his power and rebuilding the dragon cult, every reference I can recall to alduin returning to devour the world is extrapolation by characters in game based on his title, with the actual prophecy merely denoting that he will return. If this is the case it would make sense that Miraak could have been blessed by Akatosh in order to kill the wayward Alduin but as he said himself he 'chose a different path'.
I do agree with this. I am not sure where i heard this or what can corroborate it in game but the dragonborn was created by akatosh in response to alduin. Which would mean that the first dragonborn chronologically would have to be during the reign of alduin, which would line up with miraak.
Considering that prior to Al-Esh, Paravant, or Emperess Alessia that there was no deity existing as Akatosh. The ancient Atmora worshipped their time deity Alduin, whereas the Aldmer/Altmer worshipped Auriel their time deity. Al-Esh made up Akatosh to appease their new Nordic friends of Skyrim and to keep the newly freed Nedes united for her Empire. The Nedes believed in the same deities as their Ayleid oppressors through the centuries of slavery. Therefore, we should be more precise when speaking of figures prior to Al-Esh. Also the Amulet of Kings story first speak of Akatosh gifting Al-esh but that is upon her deathbed. Thus Akatosh was most likely added in via Imperial propaganda after her death. Dragonborn understandings will have to be fleshed out more as it really ties into Ancient Atmora and the Dragon cult of those eras.
@@GamerEnthusiast3188 iirc Paarthurnax says something along the lines of 'Alduin's fate was sealed when he claimed the authority that by right belonged to our father Bormahu, Akatosh'. I'm paraphrasing a bunch but that line certainly implies that Alduin is and always has been a separate (though connected) being to the aedric entity that the dragons know as Bormahu which Paarthurnax recognises as being one and the same with Akatosh.
@@Ilzhain Yeah the lore is a bit all over the place in reality. Because we will read certain in game books in Morrowind, Oblivion etc., that is later muddied or at worst completely retconned in Skyrim and ESO. Again from my perspective too many changes were made to the Nords' lore. The ancient tongues for example were able to Shout and it had no connection to dragons or the Dragon Cult prior to ESV. I tend to give more credence to the lore that is tied to the more 'historical', 'cultural' stories. The greybeards tend to tie the voice a bit more towards Kyne/Kynerath. Again honestly I think Bethesda muddied the Nordic lore with Alduin to such a degree that they needed to try to explain the Father of the Dragons, turning Alduin from the Chief Deity to the First Born. They then attempted to make the slight differentiation between Aka and Akatosh. Whereas before it was only Alduin.
Seeing someone engage in TES lore from a historian standpoint is such a delight.
I'm tired of people in the TES fandom just taking statements at face-value even if that makes the lore inconsistent with what we actually see in the games.
Just look at how quickly people accept Pelinal is a time traveling cyborg and ignore the fact that there are almost no primary sources on his life, as the Song is just a supposed translation made by the Empire itself. No one talks about how the "praise Reman" thing is likely propaganda to legitimize a human Cyrodillic empire.
@@odd-eyes6363 I should do an analysis of the Songs of Penial soon.
@@theemerdareloth if you do read up on Pelinal, i seem to recall there's a character involved in that story that *also* lays claim to being a first dragonborn of some kind, and might reinforce or recontextualize this video, depending on when they're around.
I see Penial as time traveling cyborg more as tongue--in-cheek weirdness in the lore.
A bit like how the dwemer basically built god, realized the entire universe is just a dream, stopped believing in their own existence, and zero-summed themselves away.
Or how Vivec knows that the Nerevarine can load a previous savegame, so no matter how often Vivec fights, his opponent can try again in an infinite amount of timelines and will eventually succeed.
Or how Hermaeus Mora has cut content in his library. Content that got cut when the Aedra created Mundus.
I mean, hes an incarnation of a god so its very possible the reman thing was real since the gods of tes go through the past present and future in ever second of the day, at least according to azura and vivec. The cyborg thing i feel like is less real, unless you consider him a cyborg because he doesnt have an organic heart
There are 0 lore inconsistencies with Miraak being the First Dragonborn.
"*Projectile vomits or something, I don't know why he makes this noise, but it's hilarious,*" Best part of the video.
It's my favorite part of the DLC hahaha
*BLARRRRGGGHHHH*
I think with excitement of having another Dragonborn as a servant, he stubs one of his tentacles on his desk leg or something.
Immediately subbed once I saw the historian quoting their epistemic schema, brilliant communication and reasoning skills and I hope you keep this up.
The story and narrative ending for the Dragonborn DLC does allude to the fact that the player character never canonically leaves Mora's realm after defeating Miraak.
So, like so many legendary heroes before them, they'll simply up and disappear from history suddenly from the perspective of the common folk of Tamriel.
This of course, also fits Bethesda's typical modus operandi in removing the previous game's player character from the playing field to make room for the next game's narrative.
The previous instance of this being "The Hero Of Kvatch" and later the Oblivion Crisis from Elder Scrolls 4. Who would put on the mantle of Sheogorath, and thus slowly over time assimilated that mantle to literally become Sheogorath. Only maintaining small cryptic snippets of their former consciousness from before they did so.
Great video, though.
Do carry on with this path.
And of course the Nerevarine, who, after the events of Morrowind, seemingly travels to Akavir and is never again heard or seen.
Honestly they shouldn't have made us a dragonborn cuz they're simply too powerful and significant to just disappeare with no trace also miraak said he can escape mora's realm if he absorbed our souls so why can't we do the same? Plus don't you remember that when we visit to apocrypha it's our soul/mind that goes there wich means our body is still in nirn
It’s not hinted at at all that you don’t leave apopchrypha ….. re read that dialogue
@@Trelitty11 Yes. The quest begins when you leave for the Horn. That is where I suspect Miraak's quest occurs.
This is different for the Shivering Isles, since all the other events have to take place in Oblivion, up to Tiber Septum fighting Dagon. I doubt he would tolerate any Daedric Prince attacking during that time.
I think it ends canonically before the Horn is retrieved.
@@shauntempley9757 So basically you could argue that canonically because the quest starts in the beginning phases of the main quest, that our PC gets wrapped up in the events of Solstheim, returns back to Skyrim to still defeat Aludin?
While if they really wanted to make it a final end for the last DB the quest for DB gets unlocked after defeating Alduin?
I will never get tired of Elder Scrolls lore.
Elder Scrolls lore is one of my favorite interests, one which I have sunk an unbelievable amount of time into studying as a hobby over the last 13 or so years since I've fallen in love with the games. I love it when someone makes a video about the Elder Scrolls lore and not only clearly has researched the material, but also has a theory which is clearly substantiated with said material.
While there is nothing directly corroborating that Miraak is the first Dragonborn chronologically over him just taking that as a title, he is the earliest example we have in lore of someone being Dragonborn. Not in recorded history yet, mind you. The first Dragonborn in recorded history, as recognized by most in universe historians, is Alessia. The events of Skyrim are what teach to us players that there was a Dragonborn in history who predates Alessia, he was simply not well known and hardly written about in accepted history. It is perfectly reasonable, and quite likely, that there could be a Dragonborn that predates Miraak as well, we simply have yet to discover them if they even exist at all.
Regarding the dialogue that you quoted as the main lynchpin of your theory, I do not think it is conclusive unfortunately. While he refers to Miraak as "First Servant", he is the only one to ever do so directly as every example we have in the lore of him being referred to as First Servant is only in letters related to Sabinius. See "First Servant's Letter Page 1 and 2". Cipher Agrushna also refers to Miraak by that title, but she is only echoing what the player character said, and the player character just read it from the aforementioned letters. When you inquire to her about who the First Servant is, she gives vague reference that he is "merely a legend", but we have no seen these legends and cannot corroborate if she's just being an unreliable narrator. Just as you said, if only one or two sources make a claim to something, that isn't enough to take the claim as factual. Miraak being referred to as First Servant in these instances, while that could be due to a myriad of factors (one of those factors being your really well researched theory) it also does not directly contest the claim that he isn't The First Dragonborn as well as The First Dragonborn Servant of Hermaeus Mora, as both claims can be equally true.
My personal opinion on why this is feasible is because Dragons by nature (and by extension Dragonborns) are always in pursuit of power and have been known to, on several occasions, give themselves to Gods in pursuit of this power. See Durnehviir in the Soul Cairn. So it would be reasonable that if a Dragonborn did exist before Miraak, they would have given their service to Hermaeus Mora as Mora was a well known and powerful God. Especially to the Skaal/Proto-Nordic pantheon of those who worshipped Dragons in the cults, who see Mora as one of their most feared and powerful Adversary Gods. I don't think that any of this point directly supports the claim that he is the First Dragonborn nor does it support the claim he wasn't and was simply just using it as a title, as the answer could simply be that Dragonborns who predate Hermaeus Mora simply didn't know of him, were too scared of him, or were too smart to be enslaved, etcetera, but it in my opinion the point is enough of a refutation to at least cast doubt on the idea that the letters are completely authoritative.
I am sorry for the word salad. English is not my Native language and I apologize if any of this was hard to read. I love this video and how well researched it is and how much it made me think about this topic more indepth than I have in the past. I personally am of the opinion, after hearing your points and thinking on my own points, that Miraak is either The First Dragon, The First Servant, both, or neither. Keep up the great work man, and I can't wait for the next video 👍😊
Thanks for the great comment! Glad you enjoyed the video, and I'm always happy to hear other opinions that may differ from mine. I really like the extra details you added about the First Sevant stuff.
@@theemerdareloth Thank you for the response! I admit I had to do a bit of ad hoc research on my own as your points were really solid. I hope you have a great day. Can't wait to see more of these types of lore videos where you give your theories and also I'm super excited for the next attribute tier list. Those have quickly become my go to watch whenever I'm at work or school haha
Mirak was alive during the dragon war which is when Kyne granted humans the ability to shout. So it makes sense that the first Dragonborn would pop up around the same time.
He was alive well before the dragon war most likely. If he was alive during the Dragon War he likely would've been the leader, seeing as he could actually kill dragons permantly.
@@dillongage in the game Mirak says the 3 heroes you fight with at the end asked him to join them in their fight against Alduin and he refused.
@@Espo11BI think he was considering working under Mora at this time. Either way, he got punked and plucked from Nirn in order to save his life.
I love that these are more like an in-depth research paper than a basic lore explanation that I would get elsewhere
Thank you! I use footnotes and basically write them like I used to my history papers, haha.
The Last Dragonborn: "That's a nice argument, Miraak. Why don't you back it up with a source?"
Miraak: "My source is that I made it the fuck up."
I always saw it as he’s the first recorded Dragonborn, the first to realize their power. There likely were several before him, but they didn’t fully awaken.
@@thomasfrye6335 very possible like who's to say we are the last dragonborn whos to say a new one appears to maybe create a new empire or if it's a elven dragonborn a empire of elven creation
Absolutely make more of this type of video! They inspire me more than most others to play the core games, TESL, etc. It adds depth to everything, and in doing so makes playing much more enjoyable. Thanks for taking the time to do this!
Love how they gave Miraak an offbrand darth vader voice
Love the energy. This is superb format
....I did not expect to see Dr Ehrman show up in an Elder Scrolls video, but I'm here for it. SUBSCRIBED!
Maybe I'll get him for a real interview for the next video.
damn impressive video. using a New Testament scholar explanation for historical documents, statements, and applying a method for understanding accuracy was a brilliant touch. you're take on the meanings of "first" and "last" is also cleaver. please keep it up!
Gotta say, im quite enjoying your historian takes on the lore, it is refreshing to see such methods, and with such a nice calm voice too.
Thank you!
One of the things I love the most about elder scrolls is stuff like this. The community is, in a sense, part of the universe taking evidence from the games and forming theories and ideas based on it and then discussing them together. The players are also the scholars and researchers that can occasionally be found in books in game.
Alex O'Connor referenced in a Skyrim video. This is like ten years of my UA-cam viewing making a perfect circle
@jeremyofficer5038 Hell yeah, hope you enjoyed it.
9:42 I've played too much Skyrim, and so i misread "Herma-Mora, an unmistakable analogue" for "Herma-Mora, an unskippable dialogue."
Lol, unskippable dialogue is one of his defining features.
I have a hope and prediction. If you keep going as you are, when Elder Scrolls 6 releases in 17 years or so, your channel is going to explode. I just hope you don’t forget about Legends in all that newfound fame. Love the Vid!
I dont know who you are but this was great. Very nice calm voice over, critical thinking, open about bias. This video was wonderful stranger.
@@SomeOne-ex7hk Well I don't know who you are but this was a very nice comment! Thank you!
My take on Miraak being the first _is_ a secret third option. See, if we take that the Last Dragonborn succeeding in sending Alduin back to Akatosh is how this happens, it is unlikely that the Last Dragonborn will be the literal last in history as you said, but that's still the title that one specific Dragon Born has. The Last Dragonborn is called that because of how hopeless a task it seemed to be putting down Alduin; if the LDB didn't succeed, that would be the last to be _known._ No other Dragonborn would survive Alduin's reign, not with how troublesome those who are Dragon Born tend to be. It's the same for Miraak over all. He probably wasn't the literal first ever mortal to be born with a dragon soul. He was just the first guy who figured out his gift well enough to cause a ruckus. He was probably the reason the dragons even have a word for this specific case, at least. Just the first of any note, not the first literally.
I'm sure the last will be the last aldrin will be reborn and eat the world the dragonborn has completed thier job
well i have binged all of your lore videos and will be waiting patiently for more to drop
first video I've seen from your channel and I love it! you feel like a legit historian and I'm glad that you understand what it feels like others don't, which is that elder scrolls lore is explicitly shown to be inaccurate and biased at times just like real history! also with Mora being the best daedric prince I'm glued to my seat whenever anything even somewhat related to him is said so that helps
I think the most likely thing is that Miraak was the first one to realize the power of dragon-born. the player doesn't even know until we kill a dragon, i think Mirrak was the first to have the powers of a dragons born, if not the first too be given the blood; the first Dragon-Born but not the first Dovakin. He may have discovered this ability after his betrayal, upon killing his own first dragon.
Miraak being the first dragonborn to serve herma mora implies that there were others, except the player character of skyrim replaces miraak making miraak the only dragonborn to serve herma mora up until the events of the dlc so the ESO note wouldnt really make sense if the word "first" meant the first dragonborn to serve herma mora. Unless there were others that served him but never replaced Miraak which wouldnt make sense because if herma mora did have more than one dragonborn he wouldve wanted to replace miraak as soon as possible because miraak's been trying to escape since forever. it would make more sense that the "first" in the ESO note referred to miraak being the first dragonborn since dragon borns in general are very famous people and they would be easily recognizable but that would imply that the guy who wrote it lived long enough to see multiple dragonborns being born and we don't really know the frequency of when akatosh decides to create dragonborns
It's a cool theory but i dont buy it. cool video tho i liked it
Amazing video. I’m thrilled that more people are making these kinds of videos about The Elder Scrolls. Thanks!
Hey Dareloth, thank you so much I LOVE your lore videos, they are top notch!
That means a lot to hear, thank you so much!
Love the analysis and integration of real world history, historical analysis, and critical thinking applied to this stuff. Looking forward to more.
i really enjoyed this it makes others think more about the implications on how everything works, you keep at it i cant wait to listen to more theories and assumptions you come up next
As always, loved the video and definitely appreciate a fresh take on some (fairly) stale lore. I somewhat agree with you in my own headcanon of the "First Dragonborn" statement being a lie, but for different reasons. "Dovahkiin" is generally defined as a mortal with the blood and/or soul of a dragon, which becomes interesting if one leans into the idea about Ysgrammor, the Five Hundred Companions, etc from Atmora were actually Dragons - it's been awhile since I read about this theory and I can't remember if it's based on Kirkbride out-of-lore texts or whether it's heavily implied in an ingame text. Regardless what that leads me to consider is the fact that the early Nord settlers were all either dragons, dragons who gained humanoid forms, or somewhere in between. These dragon-nord people would then fit theoretically fit the definition of a Dovahkiin - a mortal with the blood/soul of a dragon. It's not a huge stretch to assume that those such as Miraak and Vahlok would also carry this early Dragonborn blood of the Atmorran settlers and thus Miraak is most certainly not the First Dragonborn, not even the first Dovahkiin Dragon Priest. Anyway, this is all my own personal theory but it's certainly an interesting discussion about who actually was the first Dragonborn, especially considering the pre-Skyrim lore of Alessia being the first to have the Dragon Blood. Either way, loved the video and please keep the lore content coming :)
Appreciate ya. Thanks for sharing.
The lore in ESO is all over the map, in both quality, purpose, and logic. So I find a singular note like this to be unconvincing. To the point that I prefer the mystery, over the new lore, in this case. But I appreciate the video. Good stuff.
Miraak could be the first servant of Mora and be the first dragonborn. Those aren't mutually exclusive
You did this three months ago, but it came across my timeline tonight, and I just wanna say I really appreciate the academic way you engage with the material- it's completely delightful. At first (ha) I thought the first/last thing was indeed totally chronological, but you made so many good points that you've won me over to believing your theory has legs. (I was generally of the assumption that our character was called the "last" dragonborn because the prophecy is ambiguous about if the last dragonborn kills Alduin at all- therefore, if Alduin eats the world and a new age begins per the really niche TES lore about kalpas, we are the last dragonborn of that cycle. ETA: Or, if you really want to be dark, the last dragonborn in the world, assuming that the kalpa cycle lore is just bs.) The holes in Miraak as the "first", though, are great enough that I do agree with you that "first" is definitely not necessarily chronological.
Bro you are extremely underrated. You definetaly deserve more subs🔥🔥 greetings from germany
Danke!
@@theemerdareloth Krass bro du bist deutsch🔥🔥💪
@ForestMan637 Not German, just know a small number of words 🫡
Yeah, you totally convinced me. What a revolution in my understanding of this characterr. And I love the channel, thanks for putting in that time and effort
Glad you enjoyed it!
At first I thought this all would be very underwhelming, but having the prophecy mention what is probably canonically the last things the Dragonborn does and their ultimate fate is quite fitting.
There's a theory somewhere out there (I don't remember who I heard it from) that Hermaeus Mora did something to Miraak or gave him knowledge that allowed him to become dragonborn. Perhaps it was knowledge plucked from the future and used in the current timeline for Miraak to steal the title of "First Dragonborn". Similar to how people theorize that Mankar Camoran used Mehrunes Razor to make himself Dragonborn in Paradise in order to wear the Amulet of Kings.
An interesting theory, my only issue with this is why would hermaeus mora care about some random guy that found him
@@KolonelCeanders maybe dragonpriest Miraak was interesting enough. Or Hermaeus Mora saw the opportunity to gather knowledge.
@@HappyBeezerStudios Highly doubt it.
0:49
I thought the undead dragon priests in general weren't liches, just very powerful draugrs and the named ones are only more powerful thanks to the dragons bestowing them masks, which they were named after. Also, isn't the quest with Hevnoraak is about we trying to prevent him to becoming a lich? It would be weird if they were all liches except Hevnoraak who is some reason isn't one at the time the Dragonborn is exploring Valthume while all the others are.
You're talented. I subscribed, and looking forward to watching your entire catalogue. Thank you!
Fantastic video! Love the scholarly approach to the Elder Scrolls, and I love your channel name!
EDIT: And the way you highlight text is perfect. It helps me glean information quickly and efficiently.
it is on the wiki, legends and confirmed by devs that miraak is indeed the first dragonborn. It may not sit right but that does not mean it is not a fact.
1. I never expected to see Bart Ehrman in a video game lore video.
2. My college Lit professor asked why we should objectively trust a character's POV. That stuck with me.
ELITE content! Your lore videos are incredible!
@@harrisonjschultz Thank you!
I was not expecting Dr. Erhman or Within Reason to appear in a Skyrim video
By First Servant, i think it's supposed mean that Miraak was the first mortal Servant of Hermaeus Mora rather than the First Dragonborn Servant. It's said that Miraak is considered a myth even in Apocrypha and nobody there knows about it Dragonborn status so with that context it doesn’t make sense to them to think he's supposed to be the first dragonborn servant but does make sense if he's considered to be the first mortal servant since they know he's mortal from the Merathic Era (the Orc Cypher who gives you the quest says this).
Another thing i consider about Miraak's claim about being the First Dragonborn is valid is because he was in Apocrypha itself for thousands of years learning which has knowledge from the past and the future. And the fact that other mortals of servants of Hermaeus Mora being shown to be incredibly knowledgeable on most subjects. For example a Servant of Mora without having prior knowledge of a person or an object can be be instantly knowledgeable about it's entire history by just looking at it for the first time. Others have shown the ability to see the threads of fate itself and even manipulate it in a smaller scale. Seekers are also shown to incredibly knowledgeable about universe and it's workings. They are the ones who write black books and have the ability to remember everything they read to a point where mortal servants of Hermaeus Mora looks at them at awe. And Miraak has the ability to command. With all those in mind i highly doubt Miraak's claim of being the First is wrong because if he really wasn't he and most others on Apocrypha would have already known that due to their background.
Well, my main points here are really:
1.) We don't know what he meant by First (i.e. First to do what)
2.) Just because there are no Dragonborns we know of prior, doesn't mean that Miraak is the first in the timeline
In my eyes, there are too many unknowns (Akavir, unrecorded history, etc...) to conclude that Miraak is historically the first.
I like your ideas here though, but I don't think they solve the problem of Miraak's meaning/intent. I also don't see what him having the Bend Will shout has to do with the prior stuff, but I may be misreading what you mean.
@@theemerdareloth 1) First Servant seem pretty straight forward. He's first mortal servant of Hermaeus Mora. If you ask a cypher about First Servant they'll not tell you that he's the first dragonborn servant because they don't know about his dragonborn status.
By First Dragonborn. He's the first mortal to have the blood and soul of a dragon. It's isn't about the actions he did or would do.
2) Sure we might not know whether he's the first or not because of the limited knowledge we have but my point is someone like Miraak definitely would given his background. If there were other dragonborns before him he would have definitely learned much about that during his time in Apocrypha and so would know that he was not the first dragonborn that existed on nirn. So I think his claim of being the first is pretty solid in that context.
I’m curious: if Miraak *was* the First Dragonborn, why? Why did Akatosh bless him of all people as his first?
@@Sanguivore That's a good question.
@@Sanguivore Skyrim's Official Guide Book and Miraak's own dialogue hint that he was destined to slay Alduin.
>So you have slain Alduin... Well done. I could have slain him myself, back when I walked the earth, but I chose a different path.
Note in the second sentence where he says he chose a different path. As in originally he had his path/destiny laid out to him and while it was within fate, he was he was not bound by it and chose to walk his own.
Loved this! Thank you! Subbed and cannot wait for more lore bro!
I am so glad I watched this, it always struck me as weird that miraak would be the first dragonborn like as a kid I was confused about it cuz I thought the first dragonborn (chronologically) would be the first dragonborn ruler person that akatosh blessed or something I honestly don't really remember. Either way really cool vid :3
I always thought Miraak was just trying to say something cool and took some poetic liberties.
This is an amazing theory and I love how you’re using textual and historiographical approaches to the elder scrolls! Gotta get those supporting primary and secondary sources, especially from non-biased sources. I also love the concept of the anthropological context of the term “first” may differ based on what the original culture meant by this. Even if Miraak truly believes he is “the first dragonborn” that may mean he is the most powerful or best like in an orchestra or army! Love the theory!
Thank you! Much appreciated
It is nice to hear someone looking at this well loved game and it's lore with an approach which is more rigorous in checking for validity. Thank you; I like it.
The elephant in the room, so to speak, is that as this is a work of fiction, owned by a legal entity and written over many years by differing authors, the lore will be whatever those in charge of it decide it will be. And the fans that have read and grown to love the story will, of course, push those in charge to respect what has already been established. Just like with the Witcher, Harry Potter, and the grandaddy of them all, Lord of the Rings. Looking forward to more of your vids.
I hope there comes a time for that other story.
Also, I love lore deep dives. Please make more.
I'd find it strange that an Elder Scroll would use 'first and last' specifically in reference to service to Hermeaus Mora, but then again those pieces of paper have probably said much weirder things.
Describing the Protagonist of Skyrim only in relation to when they served Hermaeus Mora, is in my opinion a gros overstatement of this service, in the grand scheme of things, diminishing their service to akatosh, Talos and the world. I think it is far more likely, that the Protagonist is indeed the last Dragonborn ever, or that he would have been the last, if he had not succeeded in stopping Alduin. However, if it is true, that Miraak is the onlyone to truely describe himself as the first Dragonborn, I can see, how he would describe himself that, meaning foremost among Dragonborns, as a Sign of his Arrogance. Possibly he might even describe the Protagonist as the last Dragonborn, meaning the least among them, as an insult. He might also mean first to serve Mora, because that is defining for his character.
I also have a diffrent perspective to offer, that Akatoshs blessing is not distributed linearly in time, but that from the timeless perspective of a God, Miraak could be the first and the Protagonist be the last to be blessed as Dragonborn, while People in the Past, present and future, might be blessed inbetween them, only in a cosmic sense.
Beautiful video, thanks!
Just watched the Mannimarco video, and now this. Love you videos!!
I honestly haven't questioned his claim before. As soon as I did, I thought of First as in "The main lead of the faction". The First Servant could be a servant who earned that title who commands more autonomy, someone the rest of the servants go to for questions and answers regarding their job.
In that sense, Miraak could have self-claimed the title of "The Dragonborn who are the most powerful and prominent in current existence whom others should look up to".
Skyrim is one of those games I find difficult to understand the deep lore of. Thanks for making this vid, awesome work!
I'm so glad I found this video cuz I recently saw a video where someone visited apocrypha and defeated miraak. In that video he calls himself the first Dragonborn. I question if that was actually true cuz I don't remember any lore book or script saying he was. Awesome lore and great video and format!
I've always thought realms of Oblivion, especially Hermaeus Mora's are pockets aside from time (given that Akatosh's influence would not be present within, as well as all the texts Hermaeus has from both the past and the future timelines of Nirn). If we're assuming that Miraak became Dragonborn within Apocrytha, with guidance of Hermaeus Mora, there would not be any sensical chronoligical support for him being the First.
We've had Elder Scrolls antagonists and many other characters be outright wrong about certain pieces of information (Mankar Camoran has called Coldharbour the realm of Meridia, likely attributed to his insanity). Miraak is likely not insane, but there is definitely a lot of unfounded pride in himself that seemingly comes from nowhere. Aside from being Dragonborn, Miraak historically has done nothing but lose and is practically imprisoned in Apocrytha. It may sound silly, but I genuinely think calling himself the first (maintaining his pride) may be what's keeping him from going insane from Mora's influence + all the Ls he's taken.
Miraak is the King of Ls
Sir congratulations to your incredible work. It is a masterpiece about TES Lore
Thank you! This is a topic I've wanted to discuss for a while now so I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I don't think Miraak was actually the first dragonborn, because then the story of Saint Alessia is just a big lie.
Writing this I realized that if there were actually dragonborn before Miraak, the story of Saint Alessia being the first dragonborn isn't true, which aligns what the video says, Miraak is the first dragonborn to serve Hermaeus Mora therefore Alessia is the first Dragonborn who was a human emperor, or something like that.
I don't think there's any mention of dragonborn having a more powerful thuum, just a more convenient method of learning them. There were many powerful tounges in those days, judging from the nord conquest of Morowind.
I feel like a detail that not a lot of people bring up about the people of skyrim, being able to use shouts without being either a dragon priest or dragon born, is the fact that the draugr can use them. This alone should show that studying to achieve the thu'um is possible.
Courage is the discovery that you may not win, and trying when you know you can lose.
A little late to the party on the Feedback, but these are my favorite kind of videos, If not longer. I’m sure that these are some of the best videos, performance wise for you, especially longer ones with Ad roll. It’s just that after over a decade, it’s hard to find new topics to talk about for a long time. Me, like many others are willing to gobble up whatever we can get, willing this editing and research stays the same
Got a video about Dragonborns coming down the pipeline. Hopefully will be finished soon. Thanks, I appreciate it!
About LDB serving Mora. I wonder how the Daedric Princes are going to share, because LDB can potentially be a champion for all of them, or at least all of the ones used in Skyrim. And if LDB is a werewolf or a vampire, imo, Hircine or Molag Bal have a far more substantial claim to their soul than the old Herma-Mora.
Combining real life historical theology and elder scrolls, this honors the Sixth House and the Tribe Unmourned.
I did not expect to see Bart Ehrman right at the start. I've been on a Richard Carrier binge and watched this as a pallet cleanser. Thought I clicked the wrong video.
Lol. I've received a lot of comments about Dr. Ehrman's inclusion. You're not the only one caught off guard by it!
Nice examination/video! Very different, but very good!
Thank you!
Interesting angle and theory. Can't say I'm completely onboard, as it just comes across like a very opaque and roundabout way to say it refers to first and last ((servant of Herma Mora)) without saying so directly or even really hinting to it. Especially the Elder Scroll prophecy has no mention of Mora, yet speaks of the dragonborn being the last. It's a reach. Not a bad reach, but a reach nonetheless.
Regardless, I really enjoyed the video. Great presentation of the content and your ideas and methods. Would love to see you do more.
My personal interpretation is that it is actually as simple as stated. Miraak was the first granted the dragonblood/ soul of a dragon, and the Skyrim main character is the last.
Miraak was destined to slay Alduin. I believe that is why he was granted the dragonblood. He turned from that path, and Alduin's slaying was postponed with the use of the Elder Scroll at the Throat of the World. The Last Dragonborn was granted the dragonblood in the time when Alduin was sent to, and by choosing to walk that path he would do what the first dragonborn was destined to do - thereby becoming the last dragonborn. As in the last to be given the task of slaying Alduin, as that was the inital purpose of the dragonborn.
I'm keeping this short. I could go on about Alduin as the aspect of end of time, the Aka oversoul, the dragonborn emperors as a separate thing, but also the likelihood of the Empire not returning to what it was, thereby also making it true that there were no more dragonborn rulers, etc..
But that is the essence of it: First, because he got the job. Last, because he finished the job.
Call it one of Akatosh's Dragon Breaks and call it a day. Explains everything.
I know you’re being sarcastic (I assume, I suppose) but this is part of a hobby horse of mine. The two narrative devices I loathe, the unreliable narrator and time manipulation. I can agree there are situations where both can be used to great effect, but more often than not, they are used to escape corners the developers wrote themselves into.
My old writing mentor would describe writing a story like building a ship. First, there’s the superstructure. The wood beams that create the shape of the ship and to which everything is supported. This is the basic laws of the setting, the world-building, the rules by which the characters must act. It can be anything other than self-contradictory. To this is added the story’s background and character backstories, the decks. Last, all the rest of the elements specific to the tale you’re spinning, which make up the hull. Where the ship goes and what happens to it is the story.
Too often, writers want to change the ship’s superstructure as it is sailing. This breaks the narrative flow and removes the reader from the setting. Simply adding Dragon Breaks to explain self-inflicted contradictions is an example of this. It makes the ship - the story - seem arbitrary and inconsequential.
@@TheSpicyLegi actually really like an unrealiable narrator when done correctly. I love the way that the elder scrolls handles it at least, reading the books and notes from the view point of the character who doesnt have all of the information is excellent world building IMO. It is a fine line though, when its used as a crutch for poor planning or writing its very obvious
@@GaMeRfReAkLIVE What is the limiting principle? Perhaps the writer of the note is lying about the existence of, say, Pelinal Whitestrake. He did so to cover up the fact that Alessia was just a random girl who led a failed revolution against the Cyrodilic peoples, and made up a group of Highland elves as boogeymen to frighten peasants and slaves into joining her army.
Am I wrong? Well, no. Any evidence you provide I will dismiss as unreliable narrator, and we can really have no lore discussion whatsoever, as we can’t even agree on basic facts.
The lore notes you refer to are presumed true until evidence is provided to believe the note is not true. That’s not unreliable narrator. I agree that having lore presented from a point of view - even a biased one - is very interesting and a good writing tool.
@@TheSpicyLeg Well this is exactly how it works in real life because an unreliable narrator is a real thing in our world.
Not to mention there are more ways to affirm if something is true or not when considering the fact that it's within the realms of possibility that it's not, using your example we know the existence of pelinal is true because we seen him, we know highland eleves are real from their architecture, undead, from sources that arent imperial and the King we see in eso.
The unreliable narrator is more used in cases where a person is making a statement or suggesting something to be true without any other points of views or external evidence that isn't just accounts or "it was revealed to me in a dream" type shit. Take for example that new book added into eso which is written much later after the fact suggesting atmora's doom was caused by a falmer mage. When reading it, it's quite clear that zenimax isn't saying this is what happend, they're offering us a possibility with the understanding that the reader knows this may not be true and may not be convinced of it, or maybe they will. That's the beauty of the unreliable narrator imo
I clicked on this expecting a lore video and got a bit more. Nice
#MoreThanLore
More historical studies on TES please 💚
I am currently researching and writing the script for the new video. Glad you liked it!
Tl:dr “First Dragonborn” could mean:
The 1st chronologically
An honorific title I.e first as in the most powerful or “first among the Dragonborn”
Some other third meaning.
This main issue is Dragonborn could have had different meanings throughout history, as we can’t confirm if people like Reman or Alesia could absorb dragon souls.
To me it seems like capital D Dragonborn are always significant to history in some way, with TLD being one such main character. People with dragon blood will probably exist after TLD, but likely won’t ever be in the spotlight in the same way again.
I always took Miraaks's words as "First among the Dragonborn". Like how sometimes Saint Peter and in turn Popes are referred to as "First among the Apostles". I never really delved super deep into the Skyrim and Dragonborn lore as I did with Morrowind but I just thought he was the leader of the Dragonborn (could be meaning first chronologically or not) and called "First" in that sense.
I think all we can infer from Vahlok not being able to shout is that he did not. The player doesn't experience their inability, they only experience that they did not. And as you said, absense of evidence is not evidence of absense. It may very well be that Vahlok simply chose not to for reasons unclear.
You’re bringing on Dr. Bart Herman? Inspiring philosophy invited him on. This is very surprising for an elder scrolls video.
i think the claim is right that he is the first and i can explain why in a bit of a shorter time frame. mainly we know that alduin was suppose to "eat" the world and end the cycle, leading the universe to be born a new. we know that this has happened several times (or at least its implied to have happened). miraak's claim to be the first could simply be that he is the first in THIS cycle and that we the player character are the last of this cycle. being a servant to hermaus mora could give him access to information that we the player character could never access such as how he knew who we are, our estimated kill count of dragons, and if we beat alduin. so he would definitely know if we were the last or just one of many more to come. all im saying is that its easy to buy into the idea that we are simply the last dragonborn for this cycle and that when alduin returns (which we know for a fact he WILL) he will then fulfill his destiny of once again ending the cycle and bringing forth a new one where again dragon blood with be gifted to those who are worthy. its a stretch but its the most simplistic answer that ties in exactly with how bethesda structured the franchise. also it could be that miraak is saying hes the first to realize his ability to steal the souls of dragons and was the first to actually USE that ability to fight them. there could have been many before him they never knew they could slay a dragon and harness the power of their souls and its just that miraak figured it out and rolled with it. and let us not forget that to be a dragonborn you must have the blood of a dragon within you and as the game states OVER AND OVER again that the ability to absorb the soul of a dragon and shout with ease is what identifies you as a dragonborn. so again, miraak could have been near a dragon that died and absorbed its soul and realized that he is indeed that of legend and decided to use that power for evil. its not that hes the first dragonborn but the first to fully utilize the power he had and take the title.
if anyone wants to debate this further i am more than happy to discuss it because this is honestly a fun topic and could lead to many new understandings of the lore.
i just wanted to add that the dragonborn absorbs the souls of the dragons they slay and that those ones cannot be resurrected even by alduin himself and his immense power. because of the age that miraak lived in where people lived day and night serving the dragons its easy to assume nobody ever tried until the war started and miraak just happened to be the one there and discovered he could absorb their souls. its also likely that when alduin couldnt resurrect the ones he absorbed he started to understand that power he had and what he could be capable of. its no doubt that miraak is and will always be evil, he was never a good person at any point in his life. but even he had to have known that if he could get to aludin there was a chance to absorb his soul and harness near ultimate power which would have drove him to wanting to face off against him... i will also add that even if he had thought this it wouldnt have mattered. when we beat alduin we didnt absorb his soul, it went back to akatosh where one day alduin will of course return to do his damn job and there wont be a dragon born to stop him. so even if miraak fought alduin and even if he won, all it would have done was exactly what we did but many years sooner. just figured i would add that because im a doofus and forgot to mention it.
Was not expecting any sort of reference to Alex O’Connor in this video
As a Christian i appreciate you adding the scholar's input 😂
Be blessed! ❤
Did not expect a Bart Ehrman shout out here. 🤣
Great reference, I've always loved the Elder Scrolls lore. I'll have to check out your channel. 😀
About the theories on whether Miraak was the first to be blessed by Akotosh, I think the fact that he's from the Merethic Era shows that he either predates or is a contemporary of Saint Alessia, the first human monarch to have ruled an empire from Cyrodiil, the earliest confirmed Dragonborn.
It's actually super fitting that Miraak isn't the first dragonborn and makes him calling you a liar (or rather his cultists) all the sweeter as he himself is a liar
I always thought it was funny that whenever people examine lore from different games in a series they really rarely consider that the character is just lying or wrong
They say people remember important moments in their life well, yet no one even remembers their own birth.