Miraak was Never The First Dragonborn (Probably) | A Historical Study
Вставка
- Опубліковано 7 лип 2024
- Within Reason Podcast: • Did Jesus Even Claim t...
Miraak's Lore Page on UESP: en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Miraak
0:00 Intro
2:00 Chapter I: Hearsay
5:21 Chapter II: Timeline
6:57 Chapter III: Dragons From Afar
9:30 Chapter IV: The Guardian and the Traitor
11:53 Chapter V: First vs. Last
15:36 Chapter VI: Servitude
18:18 Chapter VII: Conclusion
19:33 Goodbye - Ігри
Miraak's claim about being the first Dragonborn has never sat quite right with me. In trying to corroborate his claim, I was unable to find anything that backed it up, and discovered what could perhaps be a whole new lens to view Miraak through.
If you think I'm off-base or wrong here, please let me know. I'm totally open to criticism, and I'd be glad to be proven wrong, hence the "(Probably)" in the title.
Thank you,
-Dareloth
Another interesting little tidbit is there is Canonical albeit sparse evidence supporting that Akivir and Atmora was once part of a Great Continent in the Great North of Nirn, Mundus, or whatever else it's called. Due to Volcanic Activity, Wars of the Gods, the Ancient Elves, or something else, parts of the Continent split off. Like you said not much is known about the Ancient History, and Bethesda hasn't really touched upon it.
my devil's-advocate answer I have for you is that perhaps Mirrak predates the gift of dragonblood being bestowed in mortals, and as a result the knowledge about being dragonborn was part of the "thrown away knowledge" of the universe, and guess who so happens to be the god of the unused, leftover, or thrown away knowledge about reality? Hermaeus Mora. I believe that Mirrak served the dragons well, received some power and was maybe even taught some shouts by dragons, but Hermaeus mora shows mirrak the secret to learning dragon shouts as fast as a dragonborn can (whether or not he actually gave Mirrak dragon blood is beyond me, but I bet Hermaeus mora knew how it is that those with the dragon blood can learn shouts so easily and he showed Mirrak that) and on top of that teaches him the bend will words. Ultimately I believe Mirrak is *effectively* the first dragonborn since he has all the powers of a dragonborn, but he does NOT have true dragon blood in his veins and he is not destiny-bound to destroy alduin.
I don't think Mirrak is telling the truth when he tells the last dragonborn that Mirrak could have killed Alduin if he wanted to, as I don't think Mirrak knew dragonrend or even knew about it (unless all mirrak had to do was kill alduin normally but in sovengarde and the player uses dragonrend there just to bring him to the ground) and also he 100% would have tried to kill aldiun during his first rule of solthseim cause aldiun would have been one of the only threats to him to exist at the time.
@@jansonshrock2859 Interesting Hypothesis. Got any more? I ask because you seem to have good Critical Thinking skills and coming up with more benefits all of the Skyrim Community.
@@OleDirtyMacSanchez For mirrak specifically, my other hypothesis is that maybe there was a dragon break that went unrecorded when mortals first received the gift of the dragon blood (something to do with the blood of creatures outside of time being put into creatures bound by time causes time to break) so technically theres multiple first dragonborns
@@jansonshrock2859 Technically the Gods and even the Deadric Gods are Dragon Breaks themselves. They're very existence is a Dragon Break. Pretty sure they could make Dragon Breaks at will, but it probably takes alot of power to do.
Ever since Miraak casually says he could have easily beaten Alduin but chose a different path I knew he was a liar.
"I could've beaten Alduin... if I wanted to."
Same energy as "I have a girlfriends, she just goes to a different school, you wouldn't know her."
Ever since I had to spend hours googling to learn to crouch and hide and use conjurations to let himself get tired out and die because he’d glitch if I even hit him ONCE, I doubted his claims. 🤣
Miraak wasn't lying about that. He never said he could have (easily) slain Alduin, just that he could have slain him, he straight up says that Alduin could have been troublesome to him. Given we know Miraak is a Dragonborn one of the only being capable of slaying Alduin and more than likely knew about dragonrend and was in process of recieveing knowledge from Hermaeus Mora he wouldn't be lying because he was def capable or at least qualified to beat Alduin during that time.
@@lethal5383problem is Herma mora didn’t have knowledge of dragonrend since it was created by the 3 nord heroes only after they had asked miraak for help and he said no .
What I always personally thought was that Miraaks claim of being the first dragonborn was misleading but not particularly a lie in a sense. We have to recall what a dragonborn is by nature, they aren't just divinely blessed mortals, they are dragon slayers. The only mortals who can truely and completely slay a dragon due to their ability to absorb dragon souls and steal their powers. It's possible what Miraak meant by "first dragonborn" was that he was the first dragon slayer. This would also explain his falling out with the dragon cult. As a member of a cult who worships and serves the dragonkind, the act of dragon slaying alone would be seen as blasphemy, then to go even further and absorb the dragons soul and steal its knowledge and power which rendered the slain dragon unressurrectable even to Alduin. That would be the seen as the ultimate heresy by the cult. It would also explain why Hakon and the others sought Miraaks help defeating Alduin. They wanted the aid of the first true dragonslayer who just might have the raw power and natural disposition to oppose and defeat Alduin.
There is nothing in lore that states that a Dragonborn MUST be a dragon slayer. It is stated , quite clearly, that a Dragonborn is any mortal ' born with the blood of a Dragon'. Tiber Septim was a Dragonborn but he never killed a single Dragon. Even the stupid guards of Whiterun knew that.
I actually kind of like how The Elder Scrolls has characters who are straight-up lying. Yes, it's an easy way for them to justify retcons, but it's cool how it also adds some realism to the mythos.
Agreed! The “unreliability” of some of the characters really makes The Elder Scrolls come alive for me.
Just like how early medieval kings would claim Augustus or Caesar as their direct ancestor
Dragon priests not being able to shout in game is such an oversight 🤦
It's ridiculous, honestly
Dragon Priests aren't dragonborn so learning shouts would be really difficult and take years and years to learn. Their masks have never been stated to give them the ability to shout, but it's known that they draw most of their power from their masks to rule over their subjects. So personally, I think just because they have the makes doesn't mean they should be able to shout
Then again, countless Draugr shout so you may be on to something 😅
@@ElucidYTThing is, Thu'Um was a VERY big deal in ancient nordic culture, it was essential for war and was central in religious matter as well, so the fact that in game the religious leaders of the era cannot use it, even though they got to that level of power after literally decades of mastery is really weird.
The only explanation that makes some bit of sense is that their masks prevent them from using their voice freely and thus cannot use Thu'Um because the Dragons didn't want to have such powerful humans around that could actually challenge them so they took away their Shout in a way in exchange for some other powers through the masks which made them more subservient
Except that miraak has a mask and he can shout but Vahlok the Jailer is a maskless dragon priest, and he won't shout. Despite being known to have the ability.
I think it's clear from Morokei that they can shout as far as lore is concerned, but due to game limitations, they are not able
@@ElucidYTThere are draugr that can shout, likely because they were dragon cultists who dedicated their lives to the dragons.
The story and narrative ending for the Dragonborn DLC does allude to the fact that the player character never canonically leaves Mora's realm after defeating Miraak.
So, like so many legendary heroes before them, they'll simply up and disappear from history suddenly from the perspective of the common folk of Tamriel.
This of course, also fits Bethesda's typical modus operandi in removing the previous game's player character from the playing field to make room for the next game's narrative.
The previous instance of this being "The Hero Of Kvatch" and later the Oblivion Crisis from Elder Scrolls 4. Who would put on the mantle of Sheogorath, and thus slowly over time assimilated that mantle to literally become Sheogorath. Only maintaining small cryptic snippets of their former consciousness from before they did so.
Great video, though.
Do carry on with this path.
And of course the Nerevarine, who, after the events of Morrowind, seemingly travels to Akavir and is never again heard or seen.
Honestly they shouldn't have made us a dragonborn cuz they're simply too powerful and significant to just disappeare with no trace also miraak said he can escape mora's realm if he absorbed our souls so why can't we do the same? Plus don't you remember that when we visit to apocrypha it's our soul/mind that goes there wich means our body is still in nirn
It’s not hinted at at all that you don’t leave apopchrypha ….. re read that dialogue
@@Trelitty11 Yes. The quest begins when you leave for the Horn. That is where I suspect Miraak's quest occurs.
This is different for the Shivering Isles, since all the other events have to take place in Oblivion, up to Tiber Septum fighting Dagon. I doubt he would tolerate any Daedric Prince attacking during that time.
I think it ends canonically before the Horn is retrieved.
I will never get tired of Elder Scrolls lore.
"*Projectile vomits or something, I don't know why he makes this noise, but it's hilarious,*" Best part of the video.
It's my favorite part of the DLC hahaha
*BLARRRRGGGHHHH*
I think with excitement of having another Dragonborn as a servant, he stubs one of his tentacles on his desk leg or something.
To be fair, "the last dragonborn" sounds better than "the latest dragonborn".
The Latest Dragonborn 2: Imp Stool Boogaloo
I love that these are more like an in-depth research paper than a basic lore explanation that I would get elsewhere
Thank you! I use footnotes and basically write them like I used to my history papers, haha.
I always stood on the idea, that he means "The First Dragonborn" to stand against Alduin, and us being the last, according to the prophecy. As he so boldly claims "I could have slain him myself, but chose otherwise." I think he might mean it chronologically as in: Dragonborn characters, who have opposed Dragon Lordship, or rebelled. But then again, same as for your own theory, no real evidence supporting either versions.
Absolutely make more of this type of video! They inspire me more than most others to play the core games, TESL, etc. It adds depth to everything, and in doing so makes playing much more enjoyable. Thanks for taking the time to do this!
Elder Scrolls lore is one of my favorite interests, one which I have sunk an unbelievable amount of time into studying as a hobby over the last 13 or so years since I've fallen in love with the games. I love it when someone makes a video about the Elder Scrolls lore and not only clearly has researched the material, but also has a theory which is clearly substantiated with said material.
While there is nothing directly corroborating that Miraak is the first Dragonborn chronologically over him just taking that as a title, he is the earliest example we have in lore of someone being Dragonborn. Not in recorded history yet, mind you. The first Dragonborn in recorded history, as recognized by most in universe historians, is Alessia. The events of Skyrim are what teach to us players that there was a Dragonborn in history who predates Alessia, he was simply not well known and hardly written about in accepted history. It is perfectly reasonable, and quite likely, that there could be a Dragonborn that predates Miraak as well, we simply have yet to discover them if they even exist at all.
Regarding the dialogue that you quoted as the main lynchpin of your theory, I do not think it is conclusive unfortunately. While he refers to Miraak as "First Servant", he is the only one to ever do so directly as every example we have in the lore of him being referred to as First Servant is only in letters related to Sabinius. See "First Servant's Letter Page 1 and 2". Cipher Agrushna also refers to Miraak by that title, but she is only echoing what the player character said, and the player character just read it from the aforementioned letters. When you inquire to her about who the First Servant is, she gives vague reference that he is "merely a legend", but we have no seen these legends and cannot corroborate if she's just being an unreliable narrator. Just as you said, if only one or two sources make a claim to something, that isn't enough to take the claim as factual. Miraak being referred to as First Servant in these instances, while that could be due to a myriad of factors (one of those factors being your really well researched theory) it also does not directly contest the claim that he isn't The First Dragonborn as well as The First Dragonborn Servant of Hermaeus Mora, as both claims can be equally true.
My personal opinion on why this is feasible is because Dragons by nature (and by extension Dragonborns) are always in pursuit of power and have been known to, on several occasions, give themselves to Gods in pursuit of this power. See Durnehviir in the Soul Cairn. So it would be reasonable that if a Dragonborn did exist before Miraak, they would have given their service to Hermaeus Mora as Mora was a well known and powerful God. Especially to the Skaal/Proto-Nordic pantheon of those who worshipped Dragons in the cults, who see Mora as one of their most feared and powerful Adversary Gods. I don't think that any of this point directly supports the claim that he is the First Dragonborn nor does it support the claim he wasn't and was simply just using it as a title, as the answer could simply be that Dragonborns who predate Hermaeus Mora simply didn't know of him, were too scared of him, or were too smart to be enslaved, etcetera, but it in my opinion the point is enough of a refutation to at least cast doubt on the idea that the letters are completely authoritative.
I am sorry for the word salad. English is not my Native language and I apologize if any of this was hard to read. I love this video and how well researched it is and how much it made me think about this topic more indepth than I have in the past. I personally am of the opinion, after hearing your points and thinking on my own points, that Miraak is either The First Dragon, The First Servant, both, or neither. Keep up the great work man, and I can't wait for the next video 👍😊
Thanks for the great comment! Glad you enjoyed the video, and I'm always happy to hear other opinions that may differ from mine. I really like the extra details you added about the First Sevant stuff.
@@theemerdareloth Thank you for the response! I admit I had to do a bit of ad hoc research on my own as your points were really solid. I hope you have a great day. Can't wait to see more of these types of lore videos where you give your theories and also I'm super excited for the next attribute tier list. Those have quickly become my go to watch whenever I'm at work or school haha
I think the most likely thing is that Miraak was the first one to realize the power of dragon-born. the player doesn't even know until we kill a dragon, i think Mirrak was the first to have the powers of a dragons born, if not the first too be given the blood; the first Dragon-Born but not the first Dovakin. He may have discovered this ability after his betrayal, upon killing his own first dragon.
I always thought Miraak was just trying to say something cool and took some poetic liberties.
damn impressive video. using a New Testament scholar explanation for historical documents, statements, and applying a method for understanding accuracy was a brilliant touch. you're take on the meanings of "first" and "last" is also cleaver. please keep it up!
i really enjoyed this it makes others think more about the implications on how everything works, you keep at it i cant wait to listen to more theories and assumptions you come up next
ELITE content! Your lore videos are incredible!
@@harrisonjschultz Thank you!
Yeah, so, just one thing. I watched the whole video, and while I agree that Miraak being the first Dragonborn ever just because he said so is improbable, there was a little inconsistency that caught my eye - in considering that when Miraak says "first" he is referring to "serving Hermaeus Mora", how would he know that the other Dragonborn in front of him is going to be the "last" to serve Herma-Mora? Like, he planned to break free from Hermaeus, and he planned to kill the LDB, seeing as he sent cultists to do so. Why would he consider that the LDB would become the last servant of the Daedric Prince?
As I write this, maybe, just maybe, I think that Miraak was actually a genius and sent the cultists knowing they'd get murdered, just to attract the last Dragonborn to Solstheim where he could then swap places with them, making this whole debacle make sense in the end. But then this is Bethesda. Do I think they had the foresight to come up with this? No. What I do think they thought was more like: "whoah first confronts last cool cool sell sell."
You're talented. I subscribed, and looking forward to watching your entire catalogue. Thank you!
0:49
I thought the undead dragon priests in general weren't liches, just very powerful draugrs and the named ones are only more powerful thanks to the dragons bestowing them masks, which they were named after. Also, isn't the quest with Hevnoraak is about we trying to prevent him to becoming a lich? It would be weird if they were all liches except Hevnoraak who is some reason isn't one at the time the Dragonborn is exploring Valthume while all the others are.
Great video
Alex O'Connor referenced in a Skyrim video. This is like ten years of my UA-cam viewing making a perfect circle
@jeremyofficer5038 Hell yeah, hope you enjoyed it.
One reason I think that Miraak could actually be the first dragonborn chronologically speaking or at least see himself that way is the reason for the last dragonborn's existence. According to another theory I heard at one point and buy into fully, Alduin was created to be the world-eater but never had any intention of fulfilling that role, preferring instead to rule over mortals with his dragon cult. The last dragonborn is blessed by Akatosh not to stop Alduin from eating the world but from regaining his power and rebuilding the dragon cult, every reference I can recall to alduin returning to devour the world is extrapolation by characters in game based on his title, with the actual prophecy merely denoting that he will return. If this is the case it would make sense that Miraak could have been blessed by Akatosh in order to kill the wayward Alduin but as he said himself he 'chose a different path'.
By First Servant, i think it's supposed mean that Miraak was the first mortal Servant of Hermaeus Mora rather than the First Dragonborn Servant. It's said that Miraak is considered a myth even in Apocrypha and nobody there knows about it Dragonborn status so with that context it doesn’t make sense to them to think he's supposed to be the first dragonborn servant but does make sense if he's considered to be the first mortal servant since they know he's mortal from the Merathic Era (the Orc Cypher who gives you the quest says this).
Another thing i consider about Miraak's claim about being the First Dragonborn is valid is because he was in Apocrypha itself for thousands of years learning which has knowledge from the past and the future. And the fact that other mortals of servants of Hermaeus Mora being shown to be incredibly knowledgeable on most subjects. For example a Servant of Mora without having prior knowledge of a person or an object can be be instantly knowledgeable about it's entire history by just looking at it for the first time. Others have shown the ability to see the threads of fate itself and even manipulate it in a smaller scale. Seekers are also shown to incredibly knowledgeable about universe and it's workings. They are the ones who write black books and have the ability to remember everything they read to a point where mortal servants of Hermaeus Mora looks at them at awe. And Miraak has the ability to command. With all those in mind i highly doubt Miraak's claim of being the First is wrong because if he really wasn't he and most others on Apocrypha would have already known that due to their background.
Well, my main points here are really:
1.) We don't know what he meant by First (i.e. First to do what)
2.) Just because there are no Dragonborns we know of prior, doesn't mean that Miraak is the first in the timeline
In my eyes, there are too many unknowns (Akavir, unrecorded history, etc...) to conclude that Miraak is historically the first.
I like your ideas here though, but I don't think they solve the problem of Miraak's meaning/intent. I also don't see what him having the Bend Will shout has to do with the prior stuff, but I may be misreading what you mean.
@@theemerdareloth 1) First Servant seem pretty straight forward. He's first mortal servant of Hermaeus Mora. If you ask a cypher about First Servant they'll not tell you that he's the first dragonborn servant because they don't know about his dragonborn status.
By First Dragonborn. He's the first mortal to have the blood and soul of a dragon. It's isn't about the actions he did or would do.
2) Sure we might not know whether he's the first or not because of the limited knowledge we have but my point is someone like Miraak definitely would given his background. If there were other dragonborns before him he would have definitely learned much about that during his time in Apocrypha and so would know that he was not the first dragonborn that existed on nirn. So I think his claim of being the first is pretty solid in that context.
I’m curious: if Miraak *was* the First Dragonborn, why? Why did Akatosh bless him of all people as his first?
@@Sanguivore That's a good question.
@@Sanguivore Skyrim's Official Guide Book and Miraak's own dialogue hint that he was destined to slay Alduin.
>So you have slain Alduin... Well done. I could have slain him myself, back when I walked the earth, but I chose a different path.
Note in the second sentence where he says he chose a different path. As in originally he had his path/destiny laid out to him and while it was within fate, he was he was not bound by it and chose to walk his own.
I have a hope and prediction. If you keep going as you are, when Elder Scrolls 6 releases in 17 years or so, your channel is going to explode. I just hope you don’t forget about Legends in all that newfound fame. Love the Vid!
Nice examination/video! Very different, but very good!
Thank you!
I dont know who you are but this was great. Very nice calm voice over, critical thinking, open about bias. This video was wonderful stranger.
@@SomeOne-ex7hk Well I don't know who you are but this was a very nice comment! Thank you!
Fantastic video! Love the scholarly approach to the Elder Scrolls, and I love your channel name!
EDIT: And the way you highlight text is perfect. It helps me glean information quickly and efficiently.
Bro you are extremely underrated. You definetaly deserve more subs🔥🔥 greetings from germany
Danke!
@@theemerdareloth Krass bro du bist deutsch🔥🔥💪
@ForestMan637 Not German, just know a small number of words 🫡
My take on Miraak being the first _is_ a secret third option. See, if we take that the Last Dragonborn succeeding in sending Alduin back to Akatosh is how this happens, it is unlikely that the Last Dragonborn will be the literal last in history as you said, but that's still the title that one specific Dragon Born has. The Last Dragonborn is called that because of how hopeless a task it seemed to be putting down Alduin; if the LDB didn't succeed, that would be the last to be _known._ No other Dragonborn would survive Alduin's reign, not with how troublesome those who are Dragon Born tend to be. It's the same for Miraak over all. He probably wasn't the literal first ever mortal to be born with a dragon soul. He was just the first guy who figured out his gift well enough to cause a ruckus. He was probably the reason the dragons even have a word for this specific case, at least. Just the first of any note, not the first literally.
great video, good theory, and easy to listen to.
The first doesn't matter... Only the last.
Dude these Elder scrolls lore videos are legit
The lore in ESO is all over the map, in both quality, purpose, and logic. So I find a singular note like this to be unconvincing. To the point that I prefer the mystery, over the new lore, in this case. But I appreciate the video. Good stuff.
He just cites Bart Ehrman just like that.
Based.
I've always thought realms of Oblivion, especially Hermaeus Mora's are pockets aside from time (given that Akatosh's influence would not be present within, as well as all the texts Hermaeus has from both the past and the future timelines of Nirn). If we're assuming that Miraak became Dragonborn within Apocrytha, with guidance of Hermaeus Mora, there would not be any sensical chronoligical support for him being the First.
We've had Elder Scrolls antagonists and many other characters be outright wrong about certain pieces of information (Mankar Camoran has called Coldharbour the realm of Meridia, likely attributed to his insanity). Miraak is likely not insane, but there is definitely a lot of unfounded pride in himself that seemingly comes from nowhere. Aside from being Dragonborn, Miraak historically has done nothing but lose and is practically imprisoned in Apocrytha. It may sound silly, but I genuinely think calling himself the first (maintaining his pride) may be what's keeping him from going insane from Mora's influence + all the Ls he's taken.
Miraak is the King of Ls
As always, loved the video and definitely appreciate a fresh take on some (fairly) stale lore. I somewhat agree with you in my own headcanon of the "First Dragonborn" statement being a lie, but for different reasons. "Dovahkiin" is generally defined as a mortal with the blood and/or soul of a dragon, which becomes interesting if one leans into the idea about Ysgrammor, the Five Hundred Companions, etc from Atmora were actually Dragons - it's been awhile since I read about this theory and I can't remember if it's based on Kirkbride out-of-lore texts or whether it's heavily implied in an ingame text. Regardless what that leads me to consider is the fact that the early Nord settlers were all either dragons, dragons who gained humanoid forms, or somewhere in between. These dragon-nord people would then fit theoretically fit the definition of a Dovahkiin - a mortal with the blood/soul of a dragon. It's not a huge stretch to assume that those such as Miraak and Vahlok would also carry this early Dragonborn blood of the Atmorran settlers and thus Miraak is most certainly not the First Dragonborn, not even the first Dovahkiin Dragon Priest. Anyway, this is all my own personal theory but it's certainly an interesting discussion about who actually was the first Dragonborn, especially considering the pre-Skyrim lore of Alessia being the first to have the Dragon Blood. Either way, loved the video and please keep the lore content coming :)
Honestly i always thought it was weird that he calls himself first. I alway thought St. Alessia was the first dragon born. Though most dragon born emperors can't shout if I'm not mistaken
This is why I like Morrowind era lore. It's way less convoluted if the dragon cult never was a thing
Before anyone says anything, this is not me saying Skyrim was bad. I had lota of fun playing the game and it's what made me an Elder Scrolls fan. I just think that the lore of the Nords in Morrowind and the First Pocket Guide of the Empire is much more intresting.
More historical studies on TES please 💚
I am currently researching and writing the script for the new video. Glad you liked it!
There's a theory somewhere out there (I don't remember who I heard it from) that Hermaeus Mora did something to Miraak or gave him knowledge that allowed him to become dragonborn. Perhaps it was knowledge plucked from the future and used in the current timeline for Miraak to steal the title of "First Dragonborn". Similar to how people theorize that Mankar Camoran used Mehrunes Razor to make himself Dragonborn in Paradise in order to wear the Amulet of Kings.
I am so glad I watched this, it always struck me as weird that miraak would be the first dragonborn like as a kid I was confused about it cuz I thought the first dragonborn (chronologically) would be the first dragonborn ruler person that akatosh blessed or something I honestly don't really remember. Either way really cool vid :3
Yeah, you totally convinced me. What a revolution in my understanding of this characterr. And I love the channel, thanks for putting in that time and effort
Glad you enjoyed it!
Call it one of Akatosh's Dragon Breaks and call it a day. Explains everything.
I know you’re being sarcastic (I assume, I suppose) but this is part of a hobby horse of mine. The two narrative devices I loathe, the unreliable narrator and time manipulation. I can agree there are situations where both can be used to great effect, but more often than not, they are used to escape corners the developers wrote themselves into.
My old writing mentor would describe writing a story like building a ship. First, there’s the superstructure. The wood beams that create the shape of the ship and to which everything is supported. This is the basic laws of the setting, the world-building, the rules by which the characters must act. It can be anything other than self-contradictory. To this is added the story’s background and character backstories, the decks. Last, all the rest of the elements specific to the tale you’re spinning, which make up the hull. Where the ship goes and what happens to it is the story.
Too often, writers want to change the ship’s superstructure as it is sailing. This breaks the narrative flow and removes the reader from the setting. Simply adding Dragon Breaks to explain self-inflicted contradictions is an example of this. It makes the ship - the story - seem arbitrary and inconsequential.
@@TheSpicyLegi actually really like an unrealiable narrator when done correctly. I love the way that the elder scrolls handles it at least, reading the books and notes from the view point of the character who doesnt have all of the information is excellent world building IMO. It is a fine line though, when its used as a crutch for poor planning or writing its very obvious
@@GaMeRfReAkLIVE What is the limiting principle? Perhaps the writer of the note is lying about the existence of, say, Pelinal Whitestrake. He did so to cover up the fact that Alessia was just a random girl who led a failed revolution against the Cyrodilic peoples, and made up a group of Highland elves as boogeymen to frighten peasants and slaves into joining her army.
Am I wrong? Well, no. Any evidence you provide I will dismiss as unreliable narrator, and we can really have no lore discussion whatsoever, as we can’t even agree on basic facts.
The lore notes you refer to are presumed true until evidence is provided to believe the note is not true. That’s not unreliable narrator. I agree that having lore presented from a point of view - even a biased one - is very interesting and a good writing tool.
1. I never expected to see Bart Ehrman in a video game lore video.
2. My college Lit professor asked why we should objectively trust a character's POV. That stuck with me.
I think it's quite reasonable to believe that The Last Dragonborn is indeed the last dragonborn, chronologically. If you look at the broader narrative of the Elder Scrolls universe, taking into account the major events of the games, the Prophecy of the Dragonborn, lore about the intentions of the Thalmor, and (if you're so inclined) some Kirkbride texts, it paints a compelling picture that the kalpa we've experienced in the games is coming to a close. There will certainly be more Shezzarine (Lorkhan isn't done with Mundus quite yet), but Auriel's/Akatosh's power wanes.
Also because the dragon god is the god of time chronologically first and last are both unimportant and potentially up for future in universe revision.
Mirak was alive during the dragon war which is when Kyne granted humans the ability to shout. So it makes sense that the first Dragonborn would pop up around the same time.
I feel more inclined to believe that the Last isnt Last to serve Mora, but rather the Last at that particular time when Alduin returns
I think in 2011 the Last Dragonborn was supposed to be the literal last dragonborn, in 2012 Miraak was probably the literal first dragonborn. But as we've seen with ESO profit will come before lore every time, so it wouldn't be surprising if Bethesda/Zenimax retconned it to sell more pixels in the crown store.
"Sell more pixels on the Crown Store" is a phrase in going to have to adopt soon here.
Very well done! Enjoyable listen. I’d love to hear your thoughts on The Sage (Aka Gyron Vardengroet) There’s a few books he’s in/Mentioned etc. one of my favorite characters aside in lore.
I'd love to check it out.
About LDB serving Mora. I wonder how the Daedric Princes are going to share, because LDB can potentially be a champion for all of them, or at least all of the ones used in Skyrim. And if LDB is a werewolf or a vampire, imo, Hircine or Molag Bal have a far more substantial claim to their soul than the old Herma-Mora.
I think its awesome that you found the note in the necrom chapter considering its very recent release!
Will you play the golden road expansion? I'm interested in your opinion of Ithelia whenever new info comes out.
Golden Road has intrigued me, I'm interested to see where it leads. Ithelia has the potential to be interesting or really bland, so well just have to see.
Tl:dr “First Dragonborn” could mean:
The 1st chronologically
An honorific title I.e first as in the most powerful or “first among the Dragonborn”
Some other third meaning.
This main issue is Dragonborn could have had different meanings throughout history, as we can’t confirm if people like Reman or Alesia could absorb dragon souls.
To me it seems like capital D Dragonborn are always significant to history in some way, with TLD being one such main character. People with dragon blood will probably exist after TLD, but likely won’t ever be in the spotlight in the same way again.
Sir congratulations to your incredible work. It is a masterpiece about TES Lore
Thank you! This is a topic I've wanted to discuss for a while now so I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Interesting angle and theory. Can't say I'm completely onboard, as it just comes across like a very opaque and roundabout way to say it refers to first and last ((servant of Herma Mora)) without saying so directly or even really hinting to it. Especially the Elder Scroll prophecy has no mention of Mora, yet speaks of the dragonborn being the last. It's a reach. Not a bad reach, but a reach nonetheless.
Regardless, I really enjoyed the video. Great presentation of the content and your ideas and methods. Would love to see you do more.
My personal interpretation is that it is actually as simple as stated. Miraak was the first granted the dragonblood/ soul of a dragon, and the Skyrim main character is the last.
Miraak was destined to slay Alduin. I believe that is why he was granted the dragonblood. He turned from that path, and Alduin's slaying was postponed with the use of the Elder Scroll at the Throat of the World. The Last Dragonborn was granted the dragonblood in the time when Alduin was sent to, and by choosing to walk that path he would do what the first dragonborn was destined to do - thereby becoming the last dragonborn. As in the last to be given the task of slaying Alduin, as that was the inital purpose of the dragonborn.
I'm keeping this short. I could go on about Alduin as the aspect of end of time, the Aka oversoul, the dragonborn emperors as a separate thing, but also the likelihood of the Empire not returning to what it was, thereby also making it true that there were no more dragonborn rulers, etc..
But that is the essence of it: First, because he got the job. Last, because he finished the job.
First video I've seen, and I instantly subscribed.
Good stuff, dude. 🤙
Considering how many draugr can use Thuum, I find it pretty unlikely that Dragon Priests couldn't in the lore, even if they can't in game. I also think it's a leap to say Vahlok beating Miraak means he must have similar or greater skill with shouts. There are plenty of enemies in Skyrim who can kill you without shouts.
On the whole "last" dragonborn thing, I think it could be in reference to slaying Miraak as well even if Miraak isn't mentioned but it would make him the last dragonborn in a sense, maybe the last of his time, you do also slay a third "dragonborn" or stop their attempt at returning if you take Potema into consideration. But also time is wonky in the elder scrolls to begin with, especially where dragons are concerned.
I don't think there's any lore stating Potema is a dragonborn. She's a necromancer, and a descendent of Tiber Septim, but that doesn't mean she's been blessed by Akatosh. She can shout, but so can many other non-DB characters in Skyrim, most notably the Greybeards and Ulfric Stormcloak.
@@colbunkmust True, maybe it's because it's been so long since I read up on that lore and the war of the red diamond but I could have sworn she temporarily becomes empress or wears the amulet of kings, I'll have to read up on it again, though I will say I imagine being a descendant of Tiber certainly must help with the whole learning process when it comes to shouts and I doubt the Grey Beards would take her in. I guess there are those old shouting schools in lore that never come up though.
Kicked his ass, and like the Highlander THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!
The last dragonborn doesn't necessarily have the blood of a dragon (15:05), but he possesses the soul of one. The last dragon-blood that possessed the blood of a dragon was Martin, which he used his blood to become the avatar of Akatosh and drive Mehrunes Dagon out, preventing him from merging his realm with the player's. Good video though
LDB has the blood of Dragon. That's how he opens the seal of sky heaven temple. Further more Arengir, Paarthurnax and even gods like Tsun says the LDB has dragon blood.
@@ravindunandirathna1600 Some of these people need to know their lore before they start to think about cooking.
When was the last time you replayed Skyrim’s main quest? You’re just blatantly wrong.
We can argue about whether some Dragonborn only have the blood while another type has blood and soul (I think that’s bullshit) but at the very least both have the dragon blood.
No, there are two types of dragonborn. The ones that are gifted with the blood (either by pact or being an offspring) and the ones that have both blood and soul (True dragonborn which are prophesized, Wulfharth, Tiber Septim, Miraak, TLD). It's even obvious when you kill miraak because after you slay him you take his soul and guess what happens? He disintegrates like every other dragon.
elder scrolls lore is magnificent and extreamly godlike ! and i dont care if miraak was lying i still like him ! and i appreaciate this awesome video as well it adds much more to the lore analysis
Glad you liked it!
The Septim dynasty down threw Martin at supposed to be Heirs of Akotosh with Tiber Septim/ Talos being the son whom started that line. Kinda a "Heracles" deal why that dose not mean they were the only Simular descendants we do in some telling have Heraclese crossing paths with some of his not yet full God's half siblings notable the twins Polis & Kaster. So would there not be references in the further lore if Talos had encountered a half Brother named Merack?
An interesting theory to be sure, but I think sometimes the simplest explanation fits best. The "last" dragonborn might simply refer to the player character being the most recent dragonborn. He is the last of the current existing dragonborns. We can see the word "last" used like this in our world all the time. One example I found was on the NASA page for Eugene A. Cernan, where it describes him as being "the last human to leave his footprints on the lunar surface.". This doesn't have to mean that no human will ever walk on the moon again. Miraak's title of "first" might serve only to distinguish himself from the player character. Between the two, Miraak was undoubtedly first to be recognized as dragonborn.
I like that thought.
Bro brought out Bart Ehrman for an Elder Scrolls video. Savage.
> miraak isn't the first just because he said so
ok is there any evidence to suggest otherwise ?
> uhhh
@@roozbeh6999 The point is there's no evidence supporting it either.
@@theemerdareloth there's more evidence supporting him being the first , the only thing backing up your theory is that he " may " have lied .
@@theemerdareloth Herma Mora states him to be the first. Thats pretty much all the evidence you need.
@1001pierre Here's a link to Mora's UESP page. Every line of dialogue that Hermaeus Mora states in Skyrim is listed here. Feel free to search for one time Mora calls Miraak the First Dragonborn.
It's okay that you don't like my theory. It's just for fun at the end of the day. And in all likelihood, Miraak IS supposed to be the literal First Dragonborn in the timeline. But Bethesda did not historically corroborate this fact. No one else other than Miraak says anything about him being the First to do anything, and the point is that, in real life, people lie, and that's a real question that must be considered when you do history.
I kind of wondered why he didn't have the amulet. Dragonborns were a line of Akatosh with the humans, which is why the DBs were humanoid instead of dragons.
I always thought because he forsook Akatosh that he relinquished his position in the dragon world. This would make sense as to why he had to battle a bunch of dragon priests and other dragons.
Why are Akatosh's first borns so problematic? Alduin and Miraak and they end up being the final bosses too 😂
I genuinely doubt that Bethesda thought so much into it as Miraak lying about being the first Dragonborn. I find it much more likely that, as with the majority of Skyrim’s depiction of TES lore, they just forgot/retconned pre-established material for the sakes of a “cool story.”
When something like Dragonbreaks, essentially in-universe retcons, are introduced into a medium, you start to see how lazy the writers are at keeping everything straight.
10:50 "Is it possible... that this was caused... by extraterrestrials?"
epic lore dump, maybe dagoth ur next :)
You should do a lore video on Akaviir.
I was so thrown seeing Bart Ehrman in an Elder Scrolls video! Good move though
He could also mean "First" as in "Best" - essentially saying he's the best dragonborn ever. XD
i always theorized tat Akavir was "dragon people" wo worshiped Akatosh . I'm assuming is a reason they searched for the Dovakiin
I always assumed the first dragonborn was the beginning of the bloodline of the emperor.
But mow that im thinking about it. I dont think i ever had a real reason other than they interact with akatosh.
These videos are great to watch . Idk a lot about the lore so it's all new to me.
You forgot to present the evidence that Miraak is a jackass, presented by Schwaaard on multiple occasions 😂😂
Miraak in Legends is just as much of a jackass as he is in Skyrim, rest assured.
I think it could be the first Dragonborn to absorb a dragons soul and the last Dragonborn to do so. I mean, in TES all dragons were thought to be dead and we can assume the majority are dead after Skyrim.
I don't think it's meant to be interpreted like that by the writers. I think most people interpreted it chronolocially too even though I like this theory more.
I agree. I believe this was not the writers interpretation, but they laid such a flawed foundation in establishing him that I cooked up this theory.
"Many believe that the worshiped the same gods as us, just under animal totem names". Yeah, sure buddy. I bet a lot of people do think that. That's a very early historian thing to believe, to be sure. "Ysgrammor wasn't the bad guy in most of our histories, so he probably agrees with us!"
I don't have anything to say about the First Dragonborn. Miraak could be or could also not be the first in history(or at least the first in Tamriel), but I can explain why the player dragonborn could potentially be the last. Due to the nature of Elder Scroll Prophecy, both outcomes are possible(Dragonborn fight Alduin and wins or Alduin overpowers the dragonborn and the old Nordic heroes and wins). If the prophecy came to be true in the sense that the Dragonborn was defeated, then Alduin would proceed to devour the dead and eventually the world, making the Dragonborn, well the Last Dragonborn. Given that the outcome of the prophecy is not certain(prophesied hero/heroine defeats the Eater of Worlds averting the end of the world or the prophecy comes true and the world ends in apocalyptic flames per Esbern's description).
Dovah-kiin and Dov-ah-Kiin atre two differents types of Dragonborn.
Arngeir, the lead Greybeard at High Hrothgar informs the new Dragonborn (the player), that he is not the first and that there have been 'MANY' before him.
Yeah, but Arngeir is clearly using "first" in a different context than that which this video is claiming. He's not speaking about Miraak or HM, he's just talking about the DB.
@@colbunkmust Agreed - for actual contect this is copied directly out of CK. Dragonborn - "You mean I'm not the only Dragonborn?", Arngeir - "You are not the first. There have been many of the Dragon Blood since Akatosh first bestowed that gift upon mortalkind". Immediately followed by - "Whether you are the only Dragonborn of this age... that is not ours to know"... and then - "You are the only one that has been revealed thus far. That is all I can say."
He missed that thing about the thing in Hermes eye!
Obligatory algorithm post lol!
Doesn’t Hermaes Mora imply that he is?
The whole Hermeaus Mora stuff makes no sense at all. There is no reason to believe that the titles of "First Servant" and "First Dragonborn" have any connection at all. "First Servant" clearly just means highest servant of Hermaeus Mora, as you have already mentioned that "first" is often used in this way. I see no connection between the two titles.
Also, it is true that just by him calling himself the "First Dragonborn", we do not actually know what use of the word "first" Miraak meant, but the quote goes "And so the First Dragonborn meets the Last Dragonborn at the summit of Apocrypha," which, by usage of both "first" and "last" implies to me that he actually means this in a chronological sense.
So, is he actually the chronological first Dragonborn? Maybe.
He could, of course, be lying, or he could really be the first Dragonborn, or maybe he is the first Dragonborn to his own knowledge.
Maybe "First Dragonborn" is just a way to say "First Known Dragonborn", or "First Recorded Dragonborn".
"'An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' is an adage I'm sure we're all aware of."
Maybe for people who frequent this channel. Half the people in my town probably can't give a definition for 'adage,' let alone survive the brain aneurysm from trying to interpret the words of that adage. To them, convenience is the only proof that exists, they just hide it behind (really, REALLY poor) semantics.
I'm actually not convinced.
The note about the first servant is no undeniable proof. There 'first' could be an honorary title like a first lady. Or the first mortal sevant (or actually first servant if Moras daedra dont count because he created them and are like clever drones or slt).
I think he is in fact the first dragonborn. It could be a concept Akatosh invented to stop the rogue Alduin.
(And skyrim has end-of-the-kalpa-vibes anyway. Maybe it will end soon and there will be more dragonborns in the next world). And I also like the twist more of Alessia being the first dragonborn aaaall this years and then it turns out there was a secret truely first dragonborn that became evil.
And bringing the meaning of words into question can be applied to a lot of thing. 'We dont know what there words meant' is ... not a strong evidence in my mind. 'I am Alduin, first born of akatosh (in the year 0 era 5 and I have lots of older siblings)'. 'These are the closing days of the 3rd era... and the final hours of my life. But my Life is being the emperor. I simply stop ruling and survive in secret in the sewers'
I found your channel today and I like your videos but this simply didnt convince me🤭
Mannimarco the first lich isnt the real first lich was ok (although I think the dragonpriest are no liches and still alive in lore, but thats not the point).
Thank you! Means a lot!
I was also mowing the lawn during my first message, so I just wanted to reply quickly before, so I remembered to follow up with you.
I'm totally open to my Miraak theory being incorrect. I fully submit that the developers intention was almost certainly to have him be the first chronically. However, they did a poor job providing a reason to believe him. They needed a second piece of evidence in my mind, and this theory is essentially a fun alternative idea that works within the evidence provided, but it also does rely a bit on interpretation.
Thanks again for the great comment. Love to see people engaging with the videos.
@@theemerdareloth it reminded me a bit of the thu'um in general. They did a bad Job there too (or i dont get it). Paarthurnax first taught humans the thuum to fight the dragons but all draugr dragon loyal draugr do it as well 🫤
7:30 exactly my thoughts. I thought Reman predated Miraak, as the first Dragonborn. But I never knew that Miraak was actually from the Merethic era. Even saying "first" in terms of significance would be bold - there is no way that Miraak was more powerful than Reman or Talos, even without Numidium.
For sure, Miraak is definitely not more historically significant than Reman, Tiber, or Alessia 🫡
Reman and Tiber weren't personally really powerful. Their power came from the legions they had. Tiber had some training with the Greybeards and Remans did kill and absorb some dragon souls but never to the extent Miraak did. And the fact that he has been accumulating forbidden knowledge for thousands of years makes Miraak stronger than both of them.
@@ravindunandirathna1600 Perhaps, yet I can't help but think that Miraak is the least significant one of them by far. Reman conquered Tamriel and brought world peace for the first time in 500 years. Afterwards, Tamriel was plunged into total chaos internally, as well as invasions from Akavir and Oblivion. Talos conquered Tamriel and was ascended to godhood by the Aedra themselves, becoming their leader. Dagoth Ur, who was a living god, tried but failed to do what Talos did as a man. Talos's empire was the first in Tamriel's history to lead an invasion of Akavir. In short, Reman and Talos are literal icons of Tamriel's golden age. On the other hand, Miraak could only manifest his power on the tiny island of Solstheim, and that was after the Great Houses abandoned it. I could be biased, but Miraak is just meh to me.
@@dabash1039 Having the new informations from ESO it's sort of implied that Mora keeps Miraak away from Nirn because he was a dangerous element threatening to alter the fabric of fate itself and because he exerts tremendous stress on the Aurbic forces around him which present catastrophic arcane risks. So yeah pretty much in other words Miraak loses because his existence in Tamriel is too high stakes for the setting.
@@ravindunandirathna1600 wow. Didn't know that, very cool by bethesda. Much better than what they did with Ithelia. I think I should replay the Dragonborn DLC from skyrim and maybe purchase the Necrom DLC in eso
I always assumed Miraak was lying in some way, shape, or form. He could be the first dragonborn of the Dunmer, he could be the first to the Dunmer, or he just lied to his cult and meant it as he's a "born again saviour." Like he lied to people that he was the first, got taken to Mora's realm and that's how he's been able to live that long, or he's the first dragonborn reborn to "guide them." Or maybe he's a dragon priest of some sort. Or he's the first dragonslayer. Either way, he's definitely lying, or at the VERY least, being misleading. I thought it was on purpose tbh? Cuz he LITERALLY has a cult, so everything he says has to be taken with a very, very, very, VERY small grain of salt. Not that he's incapable of telling the truth, but cult leaders typically choose not to
Honestly I always took his claim as full of shit. I believe he had the ego to claim that he was the first ever, that or outright lied to make himself seem superior to the player, but I always felt he couldn't have possibly been, either knowing that he was not the first, or being ignorant of those who proceeded him.
Miraak comes across as a wimp, that might be a video I could make all on it's own
Lmao, using Bart Erhman to prove (or disprove) Miraak.
First and Last, Duty to Slay Alduin.
Last to do what? well since we slay Alduin... Last Dragonborn to be made under the destiny of saving this world/kalpa from Alduin.
Seeing as how St. Alessia was Blessed by Akatosh and not born Dragonborn, then others can, and probably will be, made this way in times of need of correction of time.
Since the Dragon Cult came from Atmora, and worshiped animals and above all, Dragons, with Alduin being chief among them, it can reasonably be said that Mirrak IS actually the first dragonborn, whether or not he was born this way or blessed we don't know, since he can absorb souls of dragons, and is most likely from Atmora like the rest of the Nord Heroes given his station.
He only was only taken in by Mora AFTER his defeat by Vahlok the Jailor, and it is said that the other Heroes "tried to use him to defeat Alduin" but he refused thus leading to why Alduin was eventually sent to the future as a last resort, thus meaning they sought Mirrak out over all other priests, to stop Alduin, for a reason, rumor had spread that he could absorb dragons' souls.
This reason being that he was a devotee of mora, and was most likely informed that he was indeed dragonborn and could absorb the souls of dragons, leading him to be pursued, for good or bad, and eventually defeated and whisked a way by Mora so he could then instill himself with Mirrak's loyalty.
While I agree about the need to back up claims in reality, this is fiction and the devs had a character directly state that he is the first dragonborn. Therefore he most likely was, in fact, intended to be the first dragonborn. However, Bethesda has used the unreliable narrator before, and when you throw in that note from ESO, a game which messes with established lore a lot, it is possible that they have chosen to retconn what they meant by "first". Plus, Miraak could actually believe himself to be the actual first dragonborn, maybe he simply had no account of a dragonborn before him, and maybe Mora referring to him as a "dragonborn" was the first time anyone had ever referred to him as such. When Mora additionally labelled him as the "first" Miraak simply assumed and didn't question it. Mora could have corrected him, I'm sure he has the information available to him. But why bother? Does it matter? He wanted Miraak to remain loyal to him, why tell him "there were others before you, you aren't special", it was in Mora's best interest to flatter Miraak and make him feel important.
Second note, the Alduin prophecy was written with the assumption that Alduin could not be defeated, and the last dragonborn would be the actual "last" because Alduin was going to destroy the world and the wouldn't be any men (or mer) after that, dragonborn or otherwise. The point of the game is to prove the prophecy wrong, prove that you will not be the "last".
You say that like you don't believe in flying golden lions
devs are behind both what Miraak says and what documents say. treating them differently only makes sense when you can establish the devs intended for them to be treated differently. otherwise they are just facts in different forms (NPC's speech or document). your points don't even come close to causing doubts about the literal meaning.
I find it also questionable to use DB dlc and ESO as a consistent piece of media when devs have most likely no clue about what previous devs intended in an NPC's speech they wrote 10+ years ago.
So did the thalmor cause the dragons to return?
That is certified Delphine Propaganda
@@theemerdareloth it was a question, didn't the thalmor cause the civil war to start thus causing a chain of events that made the dragons return.
@soupeternal3784 The dragons only returned because Alduin revived them. The Thalmor were not involved. That was just an idea that Delphine had.
@@theemerdareloth I know alduin revived them but didn't a chain of events that led up to him returning also get further started by the thalmor or did i misinterpret a lot of things i read?
@soupeternal3784 I haven't heard of that so I'm honestly not sure! I've never viewed the Thalmor as having any involvement, personally. I suppose you could argue that because The Return of Alduin and The Skyrim Civil War are both hinted at in the Prophecy of the Last Dragonborn, the Thalmor "technically" could be seen as responsible for his return, but at that point, we might as well blame Jager Tharn, The Underking, Uriel Septim VII, and the Tribunal for Alduin's return because they're also parts of that prophecy.
Last Dragonborn cuz no need for another one to be send
No, I'm Sparticus.
Hm... well objectively speaking, it's Bethesda being Bethesda, as Alessia was the first Dragonborn. Objectively, even in chronological order, as it was before Kyne bestowed the Thu'um onto mortals and Akatosh the Dragon Blood. The pact Alessia made with Akatosh was what created the Dragonborn. Supposedly, the blood in the Amulet of Kings is the blood of a Dragonborn. There's no evidence that Miraak was the first or even close to Alessia, as she has no connection to the Dragon Wars whatsoever. Alternatively, "Dovahkiin" may translate to Dragonborn but it may be an entirely different concept, as Nords have their own dialect. So if we assume that the Alessian Dragonborn and the "Dovahkiin" are different things, Miraak could be the first "Dovahkiin".