An Overview of the Pinfire Revolver System
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- Опубліковано 3 тра 2019
- (Video reuploaded to removed an allegedly copyrighted still image)
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The pinfire system was an early cartridge type which saw widespread use in Europe, but was not widely adopted in the United States. First invented by a French designer named Pauly, it was made commercially feasible by Casimir Lefacheaux. It was Casimir's son Eugene, however, who took the pinfire cartridge to its full potential, garnering a French military contract in the 1850s and building Lefacheaux into one of the largest French/Belgian non-government arms manufacturers in the mid 1800s.
Todays we are looking at an assortment of pinfire revolvers, to get some basic idea for the sort of variety that was made over the decades. Small to large, plain to fancy, and with all manner of quirky details (like folding bayonets and Lefacheaux's triple-action fire control system).
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Roland White again... The most influential firearms designer who had no idea what they were doing
*Rollin
*when fighting a duel
"sword or pistol?"
"yes"
Yes
Oui
はい！
Ah, the revolver bayonet, an elegant weapon for a more civilized age...
...not as random or clumsy as a rifle bayonet.
I just pictured having a revolver mounted to a rifle's bayonet lug.
@@AgentTasmania I hope the revolver had a bayonet 🗡️🔫.
For when 6 rounds were not enough and you have to end your opponent rightly.
Ivan Ivanov the Webley revolvers had a bayonet designed for them as well.
My grandfather was a machinegunner in the Finnish army in WW2. So he fought against the Soviets. Somehow he came across a Belgian pinfire revolver during the war. I don't know the circumtances. He brought it home and it's passed on in the family. It must have been a relic already in the 40s.
It amazes me how long it took for someone to think of placing the percussion cap in the center of the cartridge.
Well, the Needle fire system invented by Johann von Dreyse had the cap in the middle...only the primer was at the base of the bullet instead of the base of the cartridge.
@@ianfinrir8724 fun fact both lefechaux and dreyse worked for Pauly before working on pinfire and needle fire respectively.
@@MinecraftMasterNo1 That explains a lot.
1- cartridges and primers were thought to be unstable back then considering the copper material and a slight punch was enough force for igniting the primer. Industrial prowess was not as solid back then.
2- blackpowder burned considerably slower, so putting the primer by the base of the bulet made efficient burning of black powder(from front to back), especially considering paper cartridges were stil the norm even before metallic self contained ones
It amaze me how much 1) you're oblivious to hindsight 2) a 2 minutes research people did actually think of that first. the technology just wasn't advanced yet for it to work properly.
Here in Uruguay , Argentina and the south of Brazill pin fire guns were extremely popular, revolvers from 5 mm to 15mm ,two barrel pistols in all calibers called "garruchas " by the native gauchos and also shotguns with pinfire cartouches all theese guns extensively used way until the 20th century .
Most of the examples found are of cheap belgian cast fabrication but there are some more fancy ornated ones .
LUIS ANTOLA FRANCIS
Thank you for sharing, Luis.
a letter opener with a gun attached to it....just in case theres a tiger in the post.
"To test you're preparedness I will be sending you a wild animal in the post,I will not specificy when it will arrive the size of the box or what animal it will be."
I was once mailed a spider in an envelope... never again spider... never again.
I have a Belgian double-action 12mm pinfire revolver by A Francotte, that dates to the 1860s. In addition to the metallic cartridge, it's ergonomic design grip, balance, and light easy double action mechanism makes contemporary percussion Colts seem absolutely primitive.
During the Civil War, pinfire revolvers weren't just limited to what the Confederates smuggled in.
The Union also imported about 11,000 Lefachaux pinfires, and even found an American manufacturer to produce the ammunition.
Copyrighted image that's all they got really?! This channel is important historical information purely educational go bother someone else.
And on top of that, the concept of Fair Use seems to be utterly alien to some...
Since he has no image whatsoever that could possibly be anyone else's but his own, someone is violating federal law...not that Google cares.
An additional forgotten fact is that the Union Army also purchased large quantities of the M1854 Lefaucheux revolver as well as ammunition. Some 11mm ammo was made in the US under Union Army contracts.
8:06 there are lots of Pinfires still for sale in Britain due to obsolete calibre law, I've always considered them to be the 1800s equivalent of the hi-point. But I think I might just pay a bit more attention to them now, especially since they are quite cheap here compared to other obsolete cal revolvers. I just wish I could find some information about military variants.
@Ed Rascal if you're in the UK it's illegal to shoot even if it is live and owned legally otherwise you violate S58 of the firearms act.
If you're not from the UK then there are a few videos online related to 12mm pinfire, if you remember that the cartridge is already quite low pressure you can make brass in a few ways just be careful about over pressure. You can also buy used cases on collectors forums such as quickfireauctions.
Elg is Liege iirc? Not 100% but should be fine.
For primers you just place a usual pistol primer or even a plastic cap for a cap gun below the "firing pin" in the cartridge.
1800s hi point is a good comparison. For a roevolver as complicated as pinfire ones they pop up quite alot in criminal hands
@@apjmeredith An elegant weapon, for a more civilized age.
I got a Belgian proofed folding trigger 7 m/m pinfire revolver years ago when I bought a small collection. It is missing a couple parts but is the the most part shootable if ammo were available. A nice conversation piece at the least.
(Video reuploaded to removed an allegedly copyrighted still image)
I think I would like to know just what "copyrighted" still image was on all of these videos.
@@PSUQDPICHQIEIWC Might be a diagram of a pinfire cartridge, I think I remember these videos having one of those in them.
I'm assuming that the three videos were likely struck by the same claimant. If that assumption is correct, then the images would have been the same or from the same source. Considering that the Pauly rifle was not a pinfire system, then I see three possibilities:
1: The images were the same (and not of a pinfire cartridge)
2: The images were from the same source (maybe this one was of a pinfire cartridge)
3: The claim was simply fraudulent (utterly common occurrence)
Dream Services International the image in this case was of Pauly’s cartridge. You can still see the original video (with the image) on Full30. www.full30.com/watch/MDAzMDI1/an-overview-of-the-pinfire-revolver-system
Oh hell. I didn't even think to check there. Thanks for the clarification.
9:22 Not only the confederacy. The union also bought quantities of these revolvers but due to their impopularity with cavalry units and their inferiortity compared to other arms then available they often ended up in militia units
being copyrighted for a 150+ years old diagram is a total non sense of sky high foolishness, when there's a ton of AR 15 derivatives being make and sell.
This is so interesting! glad it got re uploaded, didn't catch it the first time. Very cool. Thank you sir
Hopefully you don't need to do hundreds of re-uploads from the way youtube has been going. Congrats on an astronomical $240,375 on the book Kickstarter by the way. I still would like to recommend giving buyers access to a digital repository of full resolution images. Then again, I'm not the one who got 200k in 3 ish days lol
I am confused is it 240 thousand and 375 dollars or is it 240 dollar and 375 cent?
@@betaich 240 thousand. It's standard to use a comma to seperate thousands, so one million would be: 1,000,000
@@AdloreFirst of all thanks for explaining. Second: It may be standard in American English, but I learned to separate the thousands with the use of a dot not a comma, comma for me is to separate the dollars from the cents.
@@betaich I'm not American, is that a European thing? If not, where are you from?
@@@Adlore - that is a European thing, one of the many things they do wrong. ;-)
I remember when I was a kid finding 9mm pinfire rounds in a box in the attic of my house, now I know what that thing sticking out the side is...
Many years ago I saw a pinfire shotgun cartridge, possibly in 12 bore, (or 12 gauge, to our American friends) so it wasn't just used for revolvers. I didn't know at the time how old it was.
Pinfire shotguns lasted longer than other pinfire weapons.
Thank you for bringing such content that we never would have unless it was for you. Love from Kentucky❤️
Oy home boy! Shout out from Hoptown!
They were hugely popular in Brazil and Argentina and that's why is so hard to find cap and ball revolvers down here.
RobertoDonatti where are you from? are your ancestors from italy?
@@G_v._Losinj2_ImportantPlaylist Born in Argentina. Both my grandfathers were Italian. My grandmothers Basque
RobertoDonatti wow both were basques. people-even while understanding the places of the basques in europe-still don’t understand their reach into nova scotia, more pertinently more foundland. everywhere else the spanish and french landed the basques where always present. as they always looked for prosperity after being confined (that sounds like a narrative lol). but more seriously that’s extremely interesting rarely do woman venture off alone-but they do, yet i imagine their fathers or above that came first? so cool. stay in contact. i’m an american-a mix of slavic and germanic-i might as well say middle european-and i am always interested in argentina bc you guys have a mix only comparable to the ee.uu. i love practicing my spanish and german. and you have the hevatski (croats) down their.
@@G_v._Losinj2_ImportantPlaylist From what I heard, both my grandmothers came with their sisters and brothers late in the XIX century just a few years after the Indians have been expelled from the Tandil area, where they lived. They left their home and family in Europe never to return.
Great videos! keep up the informative and interesting content!
That double-action only model is a good looking handgun. I looked up this video because, though I was somewhat familiar with pinfire revolvers, I wanted to learn more about them since I have been reading about how they were imported & used in the Boshin War in Japan in 1868-1869. Very interesting stuff!
Great answer to a question I have been wondering about for a while. There are lots of pin fire revolvers in France, even shotguns, but I never saw any or even heard about them in the US. Thanks.
"Who watches froggotten weapons at 3 am" me " oh by 3am"
SHUT UP.
*froggotten weapons*
Go to sleep
Ribbit
5 am + insomnia......so here I am
Love this. I own two pinfires, one a breech loading poachers gun, which needless to say is not marked. The other is a revolver, with a folding trigger which as is explained on the video must have been designed for concealment. All Liege marked. The one I own is still in its original case with a cleaning rod and pewter oil bottle, lovely thing. Great video.
I have an idea: A new UA-cam channel: Forgotten Ammunition. At least an image (drawing) of a pinfire cartridge!
Knowing YT, Ian would show the parts of the ammunition or simply how it works, and then YT would say he's showing how to manufacture ammunition.
I’m pretty sure they was a diagram, as this is a re-upload for a copyright claim on a photo (as per the description)
Carter W Hern check Full30 as the original video plus the missing photo (which was of Pauly’s cartridge). www.full30.com/watch/MDAzMDI1/an-overview-of-the-pinfire-revolver-system
Thank you Ian .
I'll go back and watch every video you reupload so jokes on UA-cam
got the little one with the folding trigger ! came from an uncle of my mother, in very bad condition (cylinder axis is bent, and everything is corroded), but it's still a nice piece of history, especially the engravings.
You forgot about Lefaucheux's center fire 11mm French Navy revolver, model of 1870.
I'd love to get one like either of the two on the middle left (Ian's middle right) as steampunk props and occasional shooting.
Two things. First I thought I heard you say that rim fire cartridges were reloadable. Second, it would have been nice to see an example of an actual pin fire cartridge or at least a picture as you've done in some of your other videos. Opps, maybe you did and that's what the copyright thing was all about. Overall, very good presentation as always.
The offending picture is on screen for 3 or 4 seconds and is of two very old metal cartridges. This picture is fully in keeping with the context of this video and this channel. How anyone could find a reason to complain is simply baffling. Just shows how low some people have sunk. Well done UA-cam.
i want him to do a video on the different ammo types
Melee +50%
ah yes the bowie prefix
May the 4th be with you Ian
That triple action idea sounds interesting, but dangerous. lol
the one on the far left is wild haha looks like something out of steam punk game or show or something. really cool guns
I got here from the 20-round "fancy" video, and seeing the small revolver here with the bayonet I now feel strongly that that big fancy revolver from before definitely should also have had a bayonet on it. Would it be practical? Maybe not. Would it be necessary? Almost certainly not. But would it make the weapon even fancier? Absolutely! Also, if you somehow fired off all 20 rounds and everything wasn't already dead, you could get in and finish the job.
Was in local gun shop today and spied a pin fire revolver with folding trigger that was an old miner’s gun. An old woman brought it in after she found it in her recently deceased husband’s sock drawer!😂 This being Australia the handgun was illegal so the old lady brought it to the gun shop to get registered and legal I think so she could keep it.
I enjoy Ian's vids but hadn't seen this one but found my way here after recently watching an adventure/mystery series called "The North Water" (Enjoyed it) This type of revolver appears late in season 1. Basically if I see an unfamiliar firearm, check forgotten weapons first...
Pinfires are just cool
I never expected to see a bayonet on a revolver
I'd like to see one of these cartridges
It looks like a normal cartridge, only with a small pin sticking out on the side on the back.
That last revolver is the one Vincent Van Gogh used to shoot himself if I'm not mistaken
Not the exact weapon but same model
He had taste
+MeilingSama where is that image from?
I know who it is, but I haven't been able to find it with reverse image search or saucenao. So...would you be willing to tell me where the full source image is?
@@chillinchum what image ?
@@DoctorMaybe212 your personal profile picture of hong meiling. (Or of not, whoever it is. Though I'm 99% certain.)
@@chillinchum yes it Meiling,like my user name
I dont know where I got the pic, I have the file but it's in my pc, and my pc is dead for the moment
You see a lot of them along the coast of southern England. I've got a starting gun in pinfire in amongst my crap.
I am interested in weaponry, and Forgotten Weapons is a great fallback. Thank you sir.
I have a old French pin fire cartridge.
15mm that certainly qualifies as a hand cannon.
I have one in 12mm, and two in 7mm. The 12mm one is definitely a hand cannon. It actually has quite a kick to it.
I have only fired the 12mm 2 times. Antique pinfire ammo is rare and very expensive. I paid 600 Norwegian Kroner for 2 cartridges, that's around 60 Dollars. But it was worth the experience!
I'm thinking about getting into hand-loading for my pinfire guns. I would like to shoot them, but not for 30 Dollars per shot...
What is the oldest pinfire revolver ever made or patented?
That one on the left looks like some bastard mutant lemat cartrage gun but without the fun of a shotgun.
Its 4 pm for me!
Manufacture Française ('ManuFrance') catalogues sold pinfire shotgun hulls up to at least 1925
Good luck reloading one of those cartridges.
Dude how many of your videos did you reload?
Three.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the copyright violation was the national flags on the thumbnail the way UA-cam can be 😂
Woot, never been this early
How long did the French navy keep pinfires as a sidearm?
I think the revolver lefaucheux modèle 1854 was adopted by the navy in 1858 after remplaced by the revolver lefaucheux modèle 1870 another pinfire. Then they adopted the MAS 1874 revolver "chamelot delvigne" which was a center fire.
So about 15years
NOOB question - if modern brass cartridges are designed to expand upon firing, how do these used cartridges remain suitable for hand-loading (as some gun enthusiasts do)?
The casing are actually cut and reformed in the reloading process, this is why you can only reload a casing 1 or 2 times for the same caliber. But if you have a 357 magnum. Then you can cut the casing down sequentially to meet the shorter and shorter .38 loads. Not recommended, but technically possible.
@@theduke7539 Thanks.
@@theduke7539 Uhhh, _what?_ The "by the book" reloading says a cartridge is usually going to last 15 reloads, but most reloaders I've talked to basically say they keep reloading until they see the brass forming stress fractures, depending on quality of the case they can get about 30 loads out of the brass.
The expansion of a brass case is its _outer diameter_ to match the chamber. That would have nothing to do with cutting down the case length anyway.
The reason this isn't a problem is because the case will contract back down once the pressure and heat dissipate (hence why stress fractures form after a while, repeated expansion and contraction). Plus, even if they didn't shrink back down, they'd only be expanded to the gun's chamber, meaning you'd just end up with brass that is a perfect fit, hardly a bad thing I'd reckon. (Well, it might make getting the case out a bit difficult since it'd be a tight fit.)
Seriously, where did you learn about "reloading"?
I agree with DAKOTA56777, I don't know where The Duke is coming from. I reload 357 magnum. I can add that I resize the case every so often as the cartridge can become a bit of a tight push into the chamber after a while. By the way cases can be trimmed after a while as they can lengthen. But in my experience, it doesn't matter and cracks forming is the main limit to reuse. By the way, the cracks form from the flaring on the mouth of the case required to insert the projectile. I guess some people read a lot about firearms but don't have the practical experience to correctly understand some things.
You can anneal brass - water bath (to the neck/mouth) & a propane torch. Granted, it's more effort than most common cases are worth, but can extend your more rare brass' lifespan a good deal.
Öhm, Ian, at around 7:30min or so you say something like the Rimfire is the best as it is reloadable???
Wasn't that the Center Fire Cartdridge that's reloadable??
Rimfire cannot be reloaded conventionally - centre fire cartridges are very easy to reload. I think he did mean centre fire.
@@acidwizzardbastard Yeah, exactly that's what I thought as well, that you can't really reload rimfire but center fire are easily reloadable.
@@Stefan_Payne yes you can reload rimfires. It's incredibly slow and tedious but it can be done. There was a .22LR reloading kit on sale last year.
(Many) years ago, I read a book "The Utmost Part of the Earth" written by a Welsh settler in Patagonia called "Bridges". (This doesn't exactly pin him down: it's now one of the most common surnames in Argentina.) Anyway, he had various shotguns and rifles, (donated by whichever society had sent him to be a colonist) and I seem to remember something about rimfire shotguns tending to fire themselves when they were opened to extract unfired cartridges. This contributed to Mr Bridges not liking them very much and it may also have contributed to the general lack of popularity of the pinfire system. The Roland White revolver patent cannot have been the primary reason for pinfire shotguns and rifles being unpopular. His native friends would watch him shoot his rifles in the winter and then, a couple of months later when the snow melted, find his bullets and give them back.
Can you shoot them? As in ammo availability
Yes, you can make your own ammo. And you can still find antique pinfire ammo, but it's expensive. And shooting antique pinfire ammo is also kind of bad, they are rare and collectible. They don't make any more of them.
An interesting “what if” alternative history of firearms development if the white patent wasn’t valid because these were patented first
These weren't patented in America and we didn't automatically consider things not patented here to be patented at the time.
Thomas Mobley that’s what I was getting at
Given that patent did anyone try to make a cartridge revolver that loaded from the front, if so how well did they work?
Colt did.
Not well.
Ehh...
It's very safe to look down antique revolvers where the ammo hasn't existed for 150 years
Some Frenchman has copyrighted that facial hair, I'm sure. Weirdly, everything seems connected. Pauly, pinfire. Particular era.
napoleon III is mad that ian swiped his style
DA/SA actions existed back in the mid 1800’s? I had no idea. Why wasn’t that more popular here? Too expensive? Too complex? Crappy metallurgy?
Yo I'm pretty sure I picked that thing up in Borderlands.
Do a miniature pin fire pistol
I have a pinfire gun, but it’s IMPOSSIBLE to get ammo to test it
And what about carrying those pin fire revolvers ? Paul Verlaine carried one. What about safety with carrying it in a shoulder bag ?
Excuse my ignorance, you said rim fire is reloadable? Or you meant to say: center-fire?
It is possible to reload rimfire ammunition.... it's just a little more tricky.
I was watching Beverly Hills cop and he was talking about 44 Auto Mags what exactly is that? I was going to look it up but I thought it be cooler if you were to talk about it. Is it actually a real cartridge or is it fake for the movies. Just an idea if you’re interested if not cool still like your videos👍
The .44 Auto Mag is a semi-automatic pistol chambered in .44 AMP, which is basically a rimless .44 Magnum. Dirty Harry had one for a time. I think he did make a video on the Auto Mag series of handguns already, if you can find it - a very interesting video.
Ethan Stones alright cool
Stop uploading at 2am lmao i'll never sleep
Was the image in the background or something Ian? Seems a bit ridiculous!
I'm positive the originals had some diagrams to go along with Ian's explanations on the different early cartridges.
Belgium don't make only good chocolate and beer...
Is there any way to make pinfire ammo today?
You can find reloading kits online, but it is quite an involved process even with a kit, so if you're thinking about it, be prepared to have a lot of patience. But other than taking a lot of time, it's certainly doable.
You can buy them from a dutch site I think, but they are very expensive to get the whole kit. Weapons themselves are quite cheap on the other hand.
You really need to do a video on Roland white's revolver, you mention it a lot but never elaborate more than 'it was a stupid/bad design.'
It's Rollin White and it's on his wikipedia page. It looks like the kind of thing a bad parody of a terrible cartoon villain super scientist would come up with.
Were you feeling ok when you filmed this? You seem like you weren't your self.
I was thinking the same thing, sounds like hes got a cold or some bad allergies
What is this image? And who says it's copyrighted? I want to know who not to give my money to.
Very popual, until the 1930 were pinfire-shotguns
Damn, uploaded at around 2:15 A.M. for me
Very intersting, I got almost al calibers, 2mm 5mm 7mm and 12mm, just need the 9mm
That's a cool revolver, but does it take Glock magazines?
Back when men lived to maie their father proud!
2016 video you say?
Apparently there's a copyright strike on one of the gun's images.
@@UXB1000 wait, for real?
Oh yes. It's stated in the description. One of the still images was claimed.
@@UXB1000 Just read the description. What an age we live in
Bayonet on a gun really :-D
Ian, you feeling OK? Seem a little down compared to usual.
Don't worry, it's a repost from 2016 (copyrights issues) ;)
Any smiths doing trippple action trigger jobs on modern revolvers?
I fully believe in a patent system, but patenting a hole is ludicrous. Apple recently successfully sued for patent infringement over the rounded corners on a rectangle, and while SCOTUS did moderate the opinion and remand the decision back to the lower courts it's ridiculous that things like a rounded corner on a rectangle or a "home" button can be patented. Don't even get me started on the disgusting mess we've made of copyright protection.
Vernon Gleasman patented an automotive differential which made AWD cars possible; the key element was in the long known and previously used mechanical principal that a worm gear can turn a spur gear, but not the other way around. White's 'bored through' patent was similar; a well-known already used thing but application-specific, and thus a new concept which can logically be patented.
Oh cool, two videos in the same time, what did I do to deserve this
i'm looking at buying a pinfire that looks exactly like the one on the left but it's 7mm, But the pathetic size of it is turning me off. I want a big chungus pinfire revolver damnit!
when are you going to design your own gun
ngl it looks like a borderlands 2 jakobs revolver
When it's 3 am and you have no life, but Gun Jesus uploads so the python gets one bullet instead of two.
Lefaucheux no Lafacheaux
looks like Jesus accidentally publish 3 videos
The Videos are from 2016 and a reupload.
The French and their pinafores. History, yays!
15mm revolver... why the heck would you want to use that beast? Horse hunting?
Looks like a dangerous setup... don't drop the cartridges...