Remco lives in Calpe, Spain. First to be away from Belgium pressure. But Calpe is perfect to ride the bike. Tarmac is smooth, weather is perfect all year round. The cars are really respectful. There is tons of steady 10-20min climbs with nice 5% gradient. It’s just the perfect place to ride your bike.
Jesse one month on from finally breaking free from rim brakes and 25mm tires is now an expert on wide rims and tires and fretting about the marginal differences between the brands 🤪
Here are some real world weight of wheels I've used. My 2025 Farsports wheels with steel spokes still come in lighter than some of my carbon spoke wheels. Not to mention wider too. Easily some of my favorite wheels. No6 45/50 (45/50mm) - 1272g Elite Drive 45mm - 1288g Craft Racing CS (50/60mm) - 1301g Hyper 3 D45 (46/54mm) - 1360g FarSports EVOc6 (58mm/58mm) - 1364g Steel Spokes Magene Exar DB508 (50mm/58mm) - 1366g SuperTeam EVO II (50/50mm) - 1387g
@@joelbaker6498 For the depth to weight ratio (among other positives) those Craft Racing are tough to beat. Jeese runs the deeper version of those wheels on his race bike.
Feeling pretty good about my recent lightbicycle Falcon Pro 50 order - DT240 EXP hubs - 25mm internal width, 32mm external width, and a maximum width of 34.5mm - about 1350g weight - $1,460 inc tax & shipping Will see how they ride when they land!
Hey Jesse, long time bolt user here. I got a roam V2 and it’s a fair upgrade imo. If you need the modern features like solar, then you know what to do. But for a solid/interim upgrade could be the roam V2. USB type c, bigger color screen, better battery life. It’s nothing crazy, but it’s a great unit.
A great performance by NERO crew today. I'm 100% behind Jesse and the performance of lightweight premium Chinese wheelset builds. Reduced mass is important as it is rotational mass and improves climbing and acceleration. I bought a wheelset from Light Bicycle for a gravel bike. XC924 with additional rim mass for bike packing mass and gravel roads. Internal width 24mm, depth is 28mm high, CX Sapiem spokes, DT Swiss 240 hubs. Total mass 1,192grams. USD $1325. They have hybrid hook design which gives me assurance for safe tyre attachment. Why pay more for branded wheelsets?
We have just spent 18months testing internal external width carbon wheels specifically around cornering grip and stability whilst keeping Aero gains as high as possible. Went way down the rabbit hole and decided to design our own wheels - Ethos being wheels that are very fast but have increased handling ability and less "front wheel wash out" increased "tip in ability" our findings were that if we didnt go crazy wide internally but kept external width we greatly increased tip in ability. Thus for a majority of riders are a very fast but safer wheel set. (75% Coyle measurement :-) Not taking away a faster aero wheel will have a wider internal width how ever you will go down hill and say around heffron park - hell of a lot faster with increased tip in ability and enter and exit speed! We then also concentrated on making a wheel seet we call GRAD Gravel, Road ADventure - Hardened Military grade carbon spoke and rim with ceramic bearings that weigh 1170gr and 69% Coyle measurment :-) ..... love to lend you a set to ride!
Weight weenie build on the S5! - lighter wheels - darimo seatpost - bare carbon saddle - carbon ti rotors - carbon ti chainrings - lighter cranks - drillium Does it still hold the speed? Does it improve your package????
I've done the bit where I was riding, the heat\wind were just stupid and I was dying on the road, so I came home and did 3 hrs more hours on the trainer to get in my scheduled distance in the Air Conditioning. I also name my sensors as I have a Garmin 1040 and have multiple bikes and profiles, and multiple wheelsets, so it keeps everything organized. The beauty of the profiles is that you can limit certain options for a specific bikes.
And everyone crapped on Hunt 48 Limitless when they started the whole 35 external “22.5” internal. They were the first so love or hate they need some credit.
I think usually people buying new wheelsets would consider the following: 1) budget 2) tyre size running those wheels 3) hook/hookless 4) weight 5) aero, crosswind stability result Items 1-4 are measurable, while item 5 is usually hard to quantify or available.
I'm running 32 mm Conti GP5000 S TR on my DT Swiss ARC 1100 wheels. Yes, the tire does balloon a little bit and it's probably not as fast as 26 or 28 mm wide tires. Yet I believe the few watts lost on aerodynamics are easily gained on long rides by the improved comfort. Dylan's test with his deep road wheel, far narrower than his fat gravel/mtb tires, showed that the 105% rule is maybe the optimum (so 26 mm tire on a 28 mm external width) but wider tires aren't that bad at all.
I don't agree on this. I'm faster over 150 to 200 km rides with front 25mm and back 28mm on my 50mm DT Swiss Arc than when I use 28mm at the front. It's true this is with Michelin Power Cup which are already wider than advertised so a 28mm will balloon a lot on the front wheel, even a 25mm is marginally wider than the external width of the rim. The upsides of 28mm at the front are definitely confidence around corners, more predictable behaviour and more comfortable. But still it's slower because it's less aero and I can tell from doing the same ride repeatedly. However if you're not competing, who cares , just fit what makes you enjoy your ride best. In my case I also prefer 28mm at the front but it's definitely not faster regardless being more comfortable
Weight is a rabbit hole to go down sometimes but the reserve wheels have a proper internal width for support, & external for aero & NO weight limit! As a 200 lb rider that's super important!
Jesse is so far lost down the tyre sizes purely for aero-optimisation rabbit hole that we need to send him a flashlight and new GPS head unit to navigate his way out… 🤣
And giving advice on tyre widths to someone looking for more cornering confidence, having only ridden 30mm tyres for 3 months, and never having tested 32mm for cornering optimisation
Keep in mind that crosswind stability is due to the centre of pressure location relative to the steerer tube. Larger distance away = larger torque = more unstable. While how well the tyre transitions to the rim plays a role in this, rim depth and profile are also very important.
I have a COROS running watch I think it is the best one I have had. I like the APP, has good data like HRV, & most other stuff that the ‘others’ have. I also run it in parallel to my cycle computer so I have a total health physical picture of myself. I am a runner 2nd to cycling, but at 65 I need an overall health fitness data & the COROS watch is working for me. Thanks Peter
You guys should take a look at the new Lightbicycle Turbo wheels. Wide, light, can be configured with or without carbon spokes, great pricing too. Worth a look.
I think one very important aspect of wheels that gets ignored by a lot of these discussions is the ride feel and confidence they give you when bombing down a descent. I own a set of enve 7.8s and a set of bora 50s (not wto) and the boras brake and corner waaaay better than the enves, even if they are 2-4 watts slower on average. so i generally ride the boras a lot more, even though they are objectively slower and definitely less stable on crosswinds. lateral stiffness and reliability is a big plus for me as a 85kg rider
21-23 Narrow is perfect for 28-32 Tyres. 25 Is For 32/35 minimum imo to safe use. If you put 32Tyre on 25 rim there is a chance that you will run on part of sidewall instead of bead. The outer rim ratio to effective tyre width is important and should me 100-110% range. If you look at Roval in shop there is huge gap behind bead and rim hook, you can put a pencil there easy. They put 26 tyre on this 35 rim and its look strange but maybe aerodynamic.
Farsports do the S Series which seems identical to the Evo S but steel bearings. That costs $1299 for a 1230g 50mm. Only 40g more than the $1699 Evo S.
@@lawrences1347 they also do the new Evo S series with steel bearings, for $200 less than with CS bearings. I would assume the weight to be between the 1'190g for the 50mm pair and 1'230g of the S series.
You guys danced around the final conclusion on wheels. Basically there isn't a perfect set by current standards. They all seem to have at least one deficiency or substandard feature. It is a relatively straightforward checklist when you boil it down: External Width 34mm or higher (30mm to 32mm tire width seems to be the sweetspot for Aero and Rolling resistance) Internal Width 25mm or higher Rim Depth 50mm or deeper Hooked Rims (as the market matures the demand for hookless is nonexistent) Carbon Spokes Ceramic Bearings Under 1300 grams Around $1500 to $2000 USD ***Some actual test data on aerodynamics and crosswind stability*** Bonus feature would be solid rim bed to eliminate tubeless tape and no-clog valves included Been waiting for something to hit the market that meets this spec and there isn't anything... yet.
Great analysis Jessie. The COYLE RATIO!! Free R&D to help those lazy mainstream brands out 😉 Glad to see I wasn’t the only one to fall down the rabbit hole this week after seriously considering the new Farsports. The other interesting brand is the Parcours, which have released a white paper on their website which discusses their internal and external width ratio to optimise for a 28mm conti. From memory their internal is 22.5 and external 32 which comes in around 0.7 on the Coyle ratio. Cheers lads
One thing I can say about Coros - be a a user of their watch - is they are always working on updating to make things better and the updates tend to cover all models that can handle the updates as long as the processor and/or storage is enough. Bottom line is they are always working on improving and while I don't think they should have released the Dura till maybe this last update they will get there quickly.
Light bicycle WR45 hooked 32 ext 25 int > 30mm gp5000 = 32mm Bought these in 2021, they were well ahead of the curve. Yeah they are heavier but again this was 2021
Do a 30mm on the back and keep the 28mm front like they said. Aero on the back wheel is way less. Look at the new sl8, they used the less aero but more comfy back end of an aethos, and kept the front aero. This builds a case of aero is less important on the back of the bike than better compliance.
In calculating internal/external width, you should addldeduct 1mm for hookless/hooked wheels. All hookless save 1mm for not having and hook, and vice versa. This can be prodded by looking at manufacturers which offer same time in hookless/hooked option. For example Light Bicycle, well respected manufacturer of rims. That would change data a bit, make it more comparable.
Maybe Remco does these videos so casually to psyche out competitors. Ha Ha ... It's like "look how easy it is for me to train and win BACK TO BACK WORLD ITT's! & Stick with you guys in my first TdF".... Total Mind Game....
I did a full WW build (down to 6kg) and slowly un WW'd it (back to prob 8kg now). Even with all the rolling hills here the heavier bike is objectively better to ride. That said I am doing a new build that combines the best of both (I call it "watt weenie")
My 2020 S5, 54 which I built up myself weights 6.7 to 6.8 depending on which wheelset I run on a given day. It can easily be done without compromise. For comfort I run Roval Terra with 25 internal, with 28's that expand to measure 30 at 60 psi. My aero setup is Roval CLX 50's which give me issues on high speed crosswind descents. I also have a Farsport wheelset with a 44mm front 50 mm rear with 21 internal running 28's.
With "Wheelsfar" u can basically choose various western hubs - dt swiss, extralite etc, or their own cheaper in house ones laced to a farsports rim. Usually with steel spokes with a slightly higher weight for a cheaper price. Can get rim brake rims, tubular, disc etc so quite customisable.
Just a novice here. I understand you need to test these independently, but wouldn’t the airflow for rim/wheel outer and inner profiles be dependent on fork, chain stay, seat stay, down tube profiles? They work in concert together to create patterns.
My issues with all Chinese manufacturing are tolerances and repeatable quality. It’s not that the Chinese are incapable of excellent craftsmanship but the industrial environment makes manufacturing short cuts much easier to slip in.
In our family of 2, we have 11 different sets of Carbon wheels all big name brands bar 1. I have recently purchased a set of Mike Reddings Creative Classics in 50mm depth for my gravel bike and will never go back to purchasing heavier and twice the price name brand wheels. I can’t rate them more highly. Chris your time is approaching, you need to try dare I say it a light, wide, cost effective Chinese wheelset. 😉
Recently acquired the No.6 wheel 45/50 and the front wheel yields almost 82%, while external width 34.4 & int.28 , which with a 28 tire (GP5000) gives overall front tire widest point at 35mm. Without getting into wind tunnel perf and based on pure ride feel , its been noticeably smoother in flats, avg speed seems tad faster, and mostly noticed in the turns extra grip....seems this front wheel is an anomaly . Curious to know if any others have tried this wheel out and have noticed the difference i am seeing. This is compared to a LB AR35, which are comparable in weight , but ratio smaller in the 75% (21mm inter / 28mm ext).
Just a questions for Jesse ... does the < 75% Coyle Ratio apply to Gravel wheelsets as well? I understand gravel is not your favourite talking point, but would be good to know your thoughts!
Thanks Jesse and Chris for another great show... I enjoyed the trip down the China wheelset rabbit hole... I am about to buy my first disc brake bike and was almost ready to get the new Canyon Aeroad CFR... Now I am leaning toward the full China build from Panda Podium (with Shimano Di2 groupset) and use the savings to pay for this year's ski holiday... I will likely copy most of your build (CRW CS5060 wheels might be better for me in the Netherlands or now the FARSPORTS 2025 EVOs5/6?) ... Anything that you would change, if my goal is to get best performance in Dutch crit races?
Great talk as usual guys..just my personal view on this subject. I don't think this is "just another wheel" for one reason, this is for me the first super light wheel that ticks all boxes - hooked, protection against delacing (Magenes are a no go for me because of that), wide internal rim and a plus looks to be reduced spoke count due to larger 5mm spokes.. now, I would love Chris to persuade me that some kind of magic with rim profile of big brands (when Farsport clearly has a lot of experience by producing those rims for big companies) is superior than aero advantage of reduced spoke count.. besides Peak Torque argues that same depth rims are more or less the same in real world aerodynamics he is measuring... So seriously, should we pay double the price to big brands for heavier wheels because of some claims from wind tunnel testing, which is not perfect representation of real world with turbulent air?
WheelsFar and FarSports are the same company, except WheelsFar can make hand built custom wheels with a variety of carbon rims, hubs and spokes. GC performance went through WheelsFar for set of carbon wheels in the past. Joe at China cycling/Panda podium knows Mae the owner of the company. I had WheelsFar custom build me a 45mm depth carbon wheel set with 30mm external and 21mm internal with DT Swiss 240exp hubs and Sapim CX Ray spokes. I talk to Swiss Side in Switzerland and these wheels spec out perfectly for the Continental Aero 111 in 29mm for the front and Continental GP 5000 S TR in a 30mm for the rear. If you understand Aerodynamics, You will know who Swiss Side is. Every wheel manufacturer will say whatever they need to say to get people to believe their wheels are better then their competitors.
Great stuff! I get the external rim width/measured tire width relationship is super important especially on the front, but if you have that part correct I'm not getting why you also need to worry about what the internai rim width is. I think I'd want a wider internal rim width, again as long as the external width is a match for the tire width. Can anyone help with this? Thanks!
@@earltnm a wider internal rim allows for the tyre to expand further (which is why you get higher measured width) and therefore lower tyre pressures and a marginally better (straighter, less bulbous) profile on the rim. But basically you are right, the internal is not that critical if the external width is a good match for the tyre. The Coyle ratio is simply made up I think. I keep my ear pretty close to the ground on this stuff and have heard nothing about the importance of this ratio before.
was interested to hear Jesse not mention that the new Farsports wheels come with CeramicSpeed bearings. In a lot of the brands and wheel around similar price and even some double the price don't do that IMO.
Light bikes are just fun to ride, simple as that. Bike companies have tried to forget this and offer "mid-range" (still $5k+ bikes) at nearly 9kg. If you're buying a top-of-the range bike, it should be sub-7 for a large.
Remco trains from Calpe at the Costa Blanca. All the pros go to the area since short time. The cycling is amazing there. Beautiful climbs. Hot weather for heat soaking. Don’t tell further 🤫
I just had a custom wheelset built with DT-180’s, hooked, 24mm ID, 50mm deep, 24H CXRay spokes and brass nipples for $1600. 1380 grams, 125 kg weight limit. Support your local wheelbuilder. And I can get replacement spokes and hub parts from *ANY* local bike shop in the US. Including the trick DT-180 SINC ceramic bearings.
I appreciate supporting your local business, but you can get that exact spec direct from China (same spokes, depth, hubs, everything) for under $1000. Although I wouldn't pay the premium for the ceramics personally.
@@jameseastwood402 unless you’re implying that the Chinese are cloning DT Swiss hubs and hub part dimensions to within DT Swiss manufacturing tolerances - then other than bearings I’m not going to find acceptable replacement parts for a Chinese hub in Bentonville Arkansas two days before a race.
@@tapuzak maybe not. I don't know what is particularly unique about those hubs other than the bearings. It's the DT swiss ratchet system which is now widely copied after the patent expired. Point being you can spec Chinese wheels with DT swiss hubs in plenty of places.
After all of Jesse's thoughts on aero wheels, I've been scouring AE for a deep aero rim that can fit inside my rim brake fork (30 or 31mm), CF spokes with hidden nipples and a reliable hub. A Conti 111 tyre hopefully will top it off as there is already a 25mm TT rear tyre. The 2 bikes you each ride would surely benefit from an aero improvement. What would you actually build (that you could both use/test in your different bikes) in your 54-week-long journeys to sliding on your own rainbow jerseys next year in Lorne? Did Tadej's effort to avoid a sprint give either of you any new strategies to beat the best in the world in your age groups, perhaps on that highest little kicker on the GOR, less than 20 clicks from the line? Jesse, if you had been able to put that 'water-bottle recovery effort' in, whilst still in the front group, could that have yielded you a 110km 'Tadej' effort off the front to win sans a sprint?
As someone who is extremely semantical it drove me crazy hearing all the could’ve, should’ve , possibly etc…. In the wheel portion of the show. It was all opinion based. Like Jesse said he’s not an engineer. Giving “advice” that contradicts the manufacturer’s suggestion(Hunt). 🤔
Where is the industry headed in terms of rim/tire width? and if I'm buying a wheelset today, what would be a good internal width to future proof (at least as many years as possible) for future development?
I'm with Chris as far as naming power meters/HR monitors/Radar/SRAM stuff, i have multiples of all of it and i have to know it's working before i leave the house! I bought a Duro also because i use their running watch (battery life on that is incredible also!!!).....i really want that lap screen for efforts and my firmware doesn't show it, when was it released? Mine says up to date and is version 3.0608.0
Quick question for you both. Do the aero frame benefits still hold true when your typical rides have a climbing ratio of 1000ft for every 10 miles riding or would a climbing frame be advantageous? Thanks. Great podcast series by the way. 👍
How wide does a 28mm Continental GP5000 measure on a wheel with a 24mm internal rim width such as the farsports 2025 evo c's? I'm getting 30mm measured width with those tires on my current 21mm internal width wheels already.
Agree on the head unit conversation. The Garmin has the profiles, but for some crazy reason they don't allow you to associate sensors and BIKE with the profiles! I am able to edit the names of the sensors, but would love a startup screen that lists the names and status of all the sensors currently connected. Can't count on Garmin to do that though as they simply don't listen to their consumers.
What missed from the Remco video was the WHY. It had what who where, but we didnt get any insight into why he'd do these types of blocks, where he is in his training etc etc.
Hi Jesse and Chris. Regarding the Hunt topic. The updated wheelset of the guy who messaged is the Hunt Carbon Disc 50, not the Sub-50 you mentioned. This updated version is 22mm internal and 30mm external and costs around £700 for the set. What tyre width do you recommend for this? Thanks
You are talking about tire width, but where it matters is in the front. Keep 105% or as close at possible in front and go wider on the rear. The airflow there is unpredictable mess anyway. I have 29 front and 31 rear (measured) on my 29 external rims and pretty happy about it. The benefits of wider tires outweights aero losses.
I don’t understand the logic behind it. If the real width of a 28mm tire is 30mm on an 24/31.5mm width rim, shouldn’t it be as fast as a true 30mm tire on the appropriate rim?
My 10 year old SL4 weighs 6.7 with bottle cages, pedals, dual power meter, 50mm rims and computer mount. I can get it down to 6.5 by changing mechs and cassette. Not bad for a 58.
Regarding the wide tires on the Bora wheels: I think that no longer really applies when the rim is that shallow right? Same for gravel where it is kind of a waste to use very high rim profiles to a certain point , if you're putting on a massive knobbly tire.
Hi guys, love your show. I had the pleasure of riding with Remco in livigno last year on matching TT bikes. He’s a gentleman. If he’s in Alicante he might with Valverde who lives there in a prefect climate for cycling.
in our era the number 6,8kg feels like a sales factor more than a limit for a safety bike, and something to ralate to when discussing bike tech. It still just a grabbed number.
Chris may be one of the few people served better with the Reserves and that is Off-the-front break away riders. The reserves are marginally more aero, but for all other forms of racing, the better acceleration performance feels better. My deep reserves that came with the S5 have been collecting dust since I got a set of CRW 50/60 wheels. yes they are more "fun" to ride too like a light bike.
SRAM/Zipp released the 454 NSW, 303 & 404 Firecrest in 2020. I think they are the last of the brand name manufacturers to not have made updates. So it makes sense the rim profiles are outdated
This may be controversial but I have been testing two wheelsets lately from a Chinese manufacturer which have exact same rims but the where they differ is the spokes and bearings. One being Steel CX Ray spokes with steel bearing and the other with carbon 5mm spokes and ceramic bearings. After back to back testing, I think Ceramic bearings in a wheel hub is neither here nor there compared the good quality steel bearings. There was no difference in getting either wheelset up to speed and maintaining. I think that Ceramic bearings in places where there isn't a massive diameter needing to move around the bearing then Ceramic I image would be more beneficial ie jockey wheels but for a wheelset in my experience once you have your system weight up to speed, the level of resistance between the two bearings is negligible. If you say that there is a difference, sure that's your experience but if your pedal efficiently isn't pro level, the "gains" between steel and Ceramic as small as they are will desolve.
Regarding ratios for rim width etc, I though on one of your collaborations it was mentioned that the important ratio for aerodynamics was the tyre to rim width. I can’t remember the ratio, but the rim width on its own was less important than the tyre to wheel width with the tyre being a little wider than the max rim width for best aerodynamics
Perhaps one question from someone who doesn't know any better. I am noticing that Rovals, Visions and DT Swiss are all narrower internal width, but are also hooked at least DT's and Rovals are. Perhaps the hook is adding 1mm from each side? And therefore when you have hookless rims they would measure more?
The hooks on the rovals are really interesting, really long hooks on the front so that the front and rear have the same internal width even though the external widths are different
I'm riding a Winspace T1500 frameset with the Hyper D45 wheelset. There is no point for me to spend my money on big brand names to get something that is probably not better than some chines brands ! The value for the money spent on some chines brands is juste unmatched !
What brands are people going for rim brake wheelsets? all these new nice wheelsets are disc only and us rim brake Master racers who won't let go are being left behind in regards youtube content.
I'm 22min in and they act like big companies are making worse parts on purpose? Is no one going to realize the lighter something gets the more fragile it is? The big brands have a responsibility to sell wheels that won't crack under a million different conditions. Same goes for Dura Ace/SRAM etc. Can they make lighter parts? - 100%. Will they last? probably not.
Years back, Enve or ZIPP posted cut aways (sawed a few Chinese rims in half) and on the inside it looked unfinished. Which meant a weak carbon structure or unsafe. I would guess all of that has been approved. 2nd is the layout and type of carbon, super light is not used in critical areas of the frame, like the bottom bracket. Unless Far Sports has crafted a new manufacturing technique, I would guess they made a carbon material/layout choice that other manufactures aren’t willing to do. Are they safe is the big question for me?
Moving forward: I dont think the Inner-Outer ratio is matter much, whats matter most is rim depth. According to: "At 30km/h the trend line equation is shown below. Very loosely, every mm of rim depth is worth about 0.25W reduction in power At 50km/h the trend line equation is shown below. At this speed, every mm of rim depth is worth 0.84W of power reduction" By Hambini aged 5 Then, with a fixed tire width, so frontal area close the same: measured width of the tire to inner width of rim, to outer width of rim, a figure 8 pattern, not in %, but in terms of mm difference. By design they can make it better or worse a bit, but the bigger the difference in those points, the worst the rim gets, especially head on. Lets say 28mm tire on a roval measures 29mm, then it goes to 21mm at the bead, 8mm difference, then it goes 35 out at rim, 14mm difference. 8+14=22. Bontrager would be 30mm to 23mm, for 7mm difference, then to 31,5mm, another 8.5mm, so 7+8,5=15,5mm. So the Bontrager should be a bit faster, especially if the sum of the air is coming head on. Roval has much deeper rear wheel, so as a set might be faster, but the front wheel should be a bit better on the bontrager, and the tires are also 1mm wider, 2mm inner width results 1mm tire width as a rule of thumb. Stability: Now depth is the biggest enemy, then depth/width ratio is matters, the bigger is the worse is. Then the figure 8 patten, but now the tables are turned the bigger the number the better. Again design choices can mate some difference, like Obermayer rims/spokes are an old design, and makes a triangular-sharp shape, to be very stiff therfore very light as well, but it comes with aero penalty, especially in stability.
I must say that with the DT a Swiss wheels you should run 28mm tyres. I have the ARC 1100 wheels with the 20 internal and 27 external width. I brought a KTM world tour bike from the 2022 season raced by Eliot Leitear (was his spare bike) and it came with the DT Swiss wheels and they came with 28mm GP 5000 tubeless and they run perfectly flush! I’m pretty sure B&B hotel team wouldn’t spec the bike with those wheels if they were slowing him down. I put a 30mm on the back now and it lightbulbs a bit but that’s ok. But 28mm tyres run flush
I name my sensors. It's not weird. It's helped me a number of times. Multiple bikes, multiple sensors. If for whatever reason you're having trouble connecting, you know which one to sort out.
X-factor for the wheels. The farsports that were weighed had straight-flat spokes (poor choice) vs what looks like CX-rays on the Cadex (much better shape). Both had external nipple tho (which won't get specced on my wheel-builds). How the discs attach is also important to aero performance. Stop worrying about weight that is in the 100g-200g range, it is trivia IMO. Aero wins every single time unless doing very short very steep hill-climbs. I'm going to race my S5 every single time over my weight weenie bike (I have a VERY light one). I went for a deerobust (terrible name) 60mm set. Fabulous hubset, cxray (aero) spokes and internal nipples on the S5...I just wish I'd gone wider with them.
Far sports and wheelsfar are exactly the same. The farsports wheels you are talking about are running ceramicspeed branded bearings in their hubs. Wheelsfar are their custom build wheelsets made generally with sapim spokes, and in my case DT350 hubs, but they seem to have about 6 hub options.
For UK hill climb races, you do need a saddle and seatpost. But some riders who only stand, have gone for tiny bmx saddles and plastic seatposts to save weight…
Personally I love the way a 23 mm tyre feels on a 21 internal 29 external rim . I tried it after cannondale recommended this combo for their system 6 when it first come out.
![The Complete Story of Destiny! From origins to Shadowkeep [Timeline and Lore explained]](/img/n.gif)
Remco lives in Calpe, Spain. First to be away from Belgium pressure. But Calpe is perfect to ride the bike. Tarmac is smooth, weather is perfect all year round. The cars are really respectful. There is tons of steady 10-20min climbs with nice 5% gradient. It’s just the perfect place to ride your bike.
Jesse one month on from finally breaking free from rim brakes and 25mm tires is now an expert on wide rims and tires and fretting about the marginal differences between the brands 🤪
Mate, 8 months ago he was telling me rim brakes were superior 😂
Here are some real world weight of wheels I've used. My 2025 Farsports wheels with steel spokes still come in lighter than some of my carbon spoke wheels. Not to mention wider too. Easily some of my favorite wheels.
No6 45/50 (45/50mm) - 1272g
Elite Drive 45mm - 1288g
Craft Racing CS (50/60mm) - 1301g
Hyper 3 D45 (46/54mm) - 1360g
FarSports EVOc6 (58mm/58mm) - 1364g Steel Spokes
Magene Exar DB508 (50mm/58mm) - 1366g
SuperTeam EVO II (50/50mm) - 1387g
Cheers for the info Patrick. Really interesting.
I’ve got a set of 45mm/50mm “hyper” wheels from wheelsfar. Carbon spokes, 25 internal, 30 external weighing 1202g with rim tape. 1000 USD delivered.
What’s your pick out of those wheels Patrick?
If you would have compared the 50mm instead of 58mm they would have been even closer to the NO6 🤔
@@joelbaker6498 For the depth to weight ratio (among other positives) those Craft Racing are tough to beat. Jeese runs the deeper version of those wheels on his race bike.
Another EXCITING episode of THE NERO Show! The only Cycling podcast that can SEE aero, always hooked, and proud to be 60mm DEEP!
Always stiff, but a good ride
Not to mention a place where you can be proud of your package despite its shortcomings
@@ChrisMillerCyclingbut does it hold its speed?
@@ChrisMillerCycling Package Pride!
Feeling pretty good about my recent lightbicycle Falcon Pro 50 order
- DT240 EXP hubs
- 25mm internal width, 32mm external width, and a maximum width of 34.5mm
- about 1350g weight
- $1,460 inc tax & shipping
Will see how they ride when they land!
Have you had the chance to ride on them yet? I'm interested in those exact wheels as well.
Hey Jesse, long time bolt user here. I got a roam V2 and it’s a fair upgrade imo. If you need the modern features like solar, then you know what to do. But for a solid/interim upgrade could be the roam V2. USB type c, bigger color screen, better battery life. It’s nothing crazy, but it’s a great unit.
Agree, love mine
I agree. I finally upgraded early this year also. I'm glad I did.
personally i hate how big bike computers can be, i am waiting for a bolt v3 to come out, hopefully next year.
My bolt V2 purchase made me unreasonably happy.
A great performance by NERO crew today. I'm 100% behind Jesse and the performance of lightweight premium Chinese wheelset builds. Reduced mass is important as it is rotational mass and improves climbing and acceleration. I bought a wheelset from Light Bicycle for a gravel bike. XC924 with additional rim mass for bike packing mass and gravel roads. Internal width 24mm, depth is 28mm high, CX Sapiem spokes, DT Swiss 240 hubs. Total mass 1,192grams. USD $1325. They have hybrid hook design which gives me assurance for safe tyre attachment. Why pay more for branded wheelsets?
I'd say HED was the brand that spearheaded the giant internal widths. Zipp and Enve came after.
We have just spent 18months testing internal external width carbon wheels specifically around cornering grip and stability whilst keeping Aero gains as high as possible. Went way down the rabbit hole and decided to design our own wheels - Ethos being wheels that are very fast but have increased handling ability and less "front wheel wash out" increased "tip in ability" our findings were that if we didnt go crazy wide internally but kept external width we greatly increased tip in ability. Thus for a majority of riders are a very fast but safer wheel set. (75% Coyle measurement :-) Not taking away a faster aero wheel will have a wider internal width how ever you will go down hill and say around heffron park - hell of a lot faster with increased tip in ability and enter and exit speed! We then also concentrated on making a wheel seet we call GRAD Gravel, Road ADventure - Hardened Military grade carbon spoke and rim with ceramic bearings that weigh 1170gr and 69% Coyle measurment :-) ..... love to lend you a set to ride!
Weight weenie build on the S5!
- lighter wheels
- darimo seatpost
- bare carbon saddle
- carbon ti rotors
- carbon ti chainrings
- lighter cranks
- drillium
Does it still hold the speed? Does it improve your package????
I've done the bit where I was riding, the heat\wind were just stupid and I was dying on the road, so I came home and did 3 hrs more hours on the trainer to get in my scheduled distance in the Air Conditioning. I also name my sensors as I have a Garmin 1040 and have multiple bikes and profiles, and multiple wheelsets, so it keeps everything organized. The beauty of the profiles is that you can limit certain options for a specific bikes.
And everyone crapped on Hunt 48 Limitless when they started the whole 35 external “22.5” internal. They were the first so love or hate they need some credit.
I think usually people buying new wheelsets would consider the following:
1) budget
2) tyre size running those wheels
3) hook/hookless
4) weight
5) aero, crosswind stability result
Items 1-4 are measurable, while item 5 is usually hard to quantify or available.
I'm running 32 mm Conti GP5000 S TR on my DT Swiss ARC 1100 wheels. Yes, the tire does balloon a little bit and it's probably not as fast as 26 or 28 mm wide tires. Yet I believe the few watts lost on aerodynamics are easily gained on long rides by the improved comfort. Dylan's test with his deep road wheel, far narrower than his fat gravel/mtb tires, showed that the 105% rule is maybe the optimum (so 26 mm tire on a 28 mm external width) but wider tires aren't that bad at all.
I don't agree on this. I'm faster over 150 to 200 km rides with front 25mm and back 28mm on my 50mm DT Swiss Arc than when I use 28mm at the front. It's true this is with Michelin Power Cup which are already wider than advertised so a 28mm will balloon a lot on the front wheel, even a 25mm is marginally wider than the external width of the rim. The upsides of 28mm at the front are definitely confidence around corners, more predictable behaviour and more comfortable. But still it's slower because it's less aero and I can tell from doing the same ride repeatedly. However if you're not competing, who cares , just fit what makes you enjoy your ride best. In my case I also prefer 28mm at the front but it's definitely not faster regardless being more comfortable
Yes, thank you Jesse. The wheel spec deep dive was the highlight for me on this weeks show ❤
Why no comparison to the Winspace top of the line model?
Weight is a rabbit hole to go down sometimes but the reserve wheels have a proper internal width for support, & external for aero & NO weight limit! As a 200 lb rider that's super important!
Jesse is so far lost down the tyre sizes purely for aero-optimisation rabbit hole that we need to send him a flashlight and new GPS head unit to navigate his way out… 🤣
And giving advice on tyre widths to someone looking for more cornering confidence, having only ridden 30mm tyres for 3 months, and never having tested 32mm for cornering optimisation
Keep in mind that crosswind stability is due to the centre of pressure location relative to the steerer tube. Larger distance away = larger torque = more unstable. While how well the tyre transitions to the rim plays a role in this, rim depth and profile are also very important.
Gotta talk some Jay Vine action next week.. absolutely crushed it
Don’t have to ask me twice, let’s do it
I have a COROS running watch
I think it is the best one I have had.
I like the APP, has good data like HRV, & most other stuff that the ‘others’ have.
I also run it in parallel to my cycle computer so I have a total health physical picture of myself.
I am a runner 2nd to cycling, but at 65 I need an overall health fitness data & the COROS watch is working for me.
Thanks Peter
You guys should take a look at the new Lightbicycle Turbo wheels. Wide, light, can be configured with or without carbon spokes, great pricing too. Worth a look.
I think one very important aspect of wheels that gets ignored by a lot of these discussions is the ride feel and confidence they give you when bombing down a descent. I own a set of enve 7.8s and a set of bora 50s (not wto) and the boras brake and corner waaaay better than the enves, even if they are 2-4 watts slower on average. so i generally ride the boras a lot more, even though they are objectively slower and definitely less stable on crosswinds. lateral stiffness and reliability is a big plus for me as a 85kg rider
21-23 Narrow is perfect for 28-32 Tyres. 25 Is For 32/35 minimum imo to safe use. If you put 32Tyre on 25 rim there is a chance that you will run on part of sidewall instead of bead.
The outer rim ratio to effective tyre width is important and should me 100-110% range. If you look at Roval in shop there is huge gap behind bead and rim hook, you can put a pencil there easy. They put 26 tyre on this 35 rim and its look strange but maybe aerodynamic.
exactly!
You can get the new Magene ultra black (albeit with steel bearings vs ceramic) for ~$900 USD. Only 100g heavier and half the price of the farsports.
Would rather have steel bearings anyway
Farsports do the S Series which seems identical to the Evo S but steel bearings. That costs $1299 for a 1230g 50mm. Only 40g more than the $1699 Evo S.
Farsports compete with themselves on that front anyway, look at the c series.
@@lawrences1347 they also do the new Evo S series with steel bearings, for $200 less than with CS bearings. I would assume the weight to be between the 1'190g for the 50mm pair and 1'230g of the S series.
You guys danced around the final conclusion on wheels. Basically there isn't a perfect set by current standards. They all seem to have at least one deficiency or substandard feature. It is a relatively straightforward checklist when you boil it down:
External Width 34mm or higher (30mm to 32mm tire width seems to be the sweetspot for Aero and Rolling resistance)
Internal Width 25mm or higher
Rim Depth 50mm or deeper
Hooked Rims (as the market matures the demand for hookless is nonexistent)
Carbon Spokes
Ceramic Bearings
Under 1300 grams
Around $1500 to $2000 USD
***Some actual test data on aerodynamics and crosswind stability***
Bonus feature would be solid rim bed to eliminate tubeless tape and no-clog valves included
Been waiting for something to hit the market that meets this spec and there isn't anything... yet.
dream wheel set right there
Getting close to what is marketed as a gravel wheel. Elite Drive G45 CS seems closer to 'ideal' than most of the road wheels.
Great analysis Jessie. The COYLE RATIO!! Free R&D to help those lazy mainstream brands out 😉
Glad to see I wasn’t the only one to fall down the rabbit hole this week after seriously considering the new Farsports. The other interesting brand is the Parcours, which have released a white paper on their website which discusses their internal and external width ratio to optimise for a 28mm conti. From memory their internal is 22.5 and external 32 which comes in around 0.7 on the Coyle ratio. Cheers lads
Thanks for that comment and the useful information.👍🏼
Alright! Back to talking about Chris' amazing package. The boys know the content we all come here for!
Also Ascent Polaris 42mm. 23/32.5 so 0.71 on the Coyle Scale. 1300g. US$1675
One thing I can say about Coros - be a a user of their watch - is they are always working on updating to make things better and the updates tend to cover all models that can handle the updates as long as the processor and/or storage is enough. Bottom line is they are always working on improving and while I don't think they should have released the Dura till maybe this last update they will get there quickly.
Light bicycle WR45 hooked
32 ext 25 int > 30mm gp5000 = 32mm
Bought these in 2021, they were well ahead of the curve. Yeah they are heavier but again this was 2021
Also, is there any chance you could raise the audio level settings for Spotify? I always have to max volume to hear vs. other shows
Thanks very much for answering my question. That's helpful info 🙏👌👍
Do a 30mm on the back and keep the 28mm front like they said. Aero on the back wheel is way less. Look at the new sl8, they used the less aero but more comfy back end of an aethos, and kept the front aero. This builds a case of aero is less important on the back of the bike than better compliance.
Thanks for the original question! Glad you enjoyed it!
In calculating internal/external width, you should addldeduct 1mm for hookless/hooked wheels. All hookless save 1mm for not having and hook, and vice versa. This can be prodded by looking at manufacturers which offer same time in hookless/hooked option. For example Light Bicycle, well respected manufacturer of rims. That would change data a bit, make it more comparable.
Maybe Remco does these videos so casually to psyche out competitors. Ha Ha ... It's like "look how easy it is for me to train and win BACK TO BACK WORLD ITT's! & Stick with you guys in my first TdF".... Total Mind Game....
I did a full WW build (down to 6kg) and slowly un WW'd it (back to prob 8kg now). Even with all the rolling hills here the heavier bike is objectively better to ride. That said I am doing a new build that combines the best of both (I call it "watt weenie")
My 2020 S5, 54 which I built up myself weights 6.7 to 6.8 depending on which wheelset I run on a given day. It can easily be done without compromise. For comfort I run Roval Terra with 25 internal, with 28's that expand to measure 30 at 60 psi. My aero setup is Roval CLX 50's which give me issues on high speed crosswind descents. I also have a Farsport wheelset with a 44mm front 50 mm rear with 21 internal running 28's.
With "Wheelsfar" u can basically choose various western hubs - dt swiss, extralite etc, or their own cheaper in house ones laced to a farsports rim. Usually with steel spokes with a slightly higher weight for a cheaper price. Can get rim brake rims, tubular, disc etc so quite customisable.
Chris, you’re not weird for naming your sensors. I do that all the time.
Just a novice here. I understand you need to test these independently, but wouldn’t the airflow for rim/wheel outer and inner profiles be dependent on fork, chain stay, seat stay, down tube profiles? They work in concert together to create patterns.
That 6.6kg S5 is sick
I agree. Maybe I am a bit jealous!
Recommended video title: "Wheels and Meals"
Jessie attack his fucking package
Leave my package out of this … it’s small, but effective
My issues with all Chinese manufacturing are tolerances and repeatable quality. It’s not that the Chinese are incapable of excellent craftsmanship but the industrial environment makes manufacturing short cuts much easier to slip in.
In our family of 2, we have 11 different sets of Carbon wheels all big name brands bar 1. I have recently purchased a set of Mike Reddings Creative Classics in 50mm depth for my gravel bike and will never go back to purchasing heavier and twice the price name brand wheels. I can’t rate them more highly. Chris your time is approaching, you need to try dare I say it a light, wide, cost effective Chinese wheelset. 😉
Thanks for sharing!
Recently acquired the No.6 wheel 45/50 and the front wheel yields almost 82%, while external width 34.4 & int.28 , which with a 28 tire (GP5000) gives overall front tire widest point at 35mm. Without getting into wind tunnel perf and based on pure ride feel , its been noticeably smoother in flats, avg speed seems tad faster, and mostly noticed in the turns extra grip....seems this front wheel is an anomaly . Curious to know if any others have tried this wheel out and have noticed the difference i am seeing. This is compared to a LB AR35, which are comparable in weight , but ratio smaller in the 75% (21mm inter / 28mm ext).
Just a questions for Jesse ... does the < 75% Coyle Ratio apply to Gravel wheelsets as well? I understand gravel is not your favourite talking point, but would be good to know your thoughts!
Thanks Jesse and Chris for another great show... I enjoyed the trip down the China wheelset rabbit hole... I am about to buy my first disc brake bike and was almost ready to get the new Canyon Aeroad CFR... Now I am leaning toward the full China build from Panda Podium (with Shimano Di2 groupset) and use the savings to pay for this year's ski holiday... I will likely copy most of your build (CRW CS5060 wheels might be better for me in the Netherlands or now the FARSPORTS 2025 EVOs5/6?) ... Anything that you would change, if my goal is to get best performance in Dutch crit races?
Great talk as usual guys..just my personal view on this subject. I don't think this is "just another wheel" for one reason, this is for me the first super light wheel that ticks all boxes - hooked, protection against delacing (Magenes are a no go for me because of that), wide internal rim and a plus looks to be reduced spoke count due to larger 5mm spokes.. now, I would love Chris to persuade me that some kind of magic with rim profile of big brands (when Farsport clearly has a lot of experience by producing those rims for big companies) is superior than aero advantage of reduced spoke count.. besides Peak Torque argues that same depth rims are more or less the same in real world aerodynamics he is measuring... So seriously, should we pay double the price to big brands for heavier wheels because of some claims from wind tunnel testing, which is not perfect representation of real world with turbulent air?
What do you think about the no6 wheels? 34/28mm front, 31.5/24mm rear…. Thoughts?
very weird dimensions.
Just rebranded Farsports.
@@alfonsokhiew2872 People keep saying this. If this is true, send me a link to these exact wheels so I can buy them.
WheelsFar and FarSports are the same company, except WheelsFar can make hand built custom wheels with a variety of carbon rims, hubs and spokes. GC performance went through WheelsFar for set of carbon wheels in the past. Joe at China cycling/Panda podium knows Mae the owner of the company.
I had WheelsFar custom build me a 45mm depth carbon wheel set with 30mm external and 21mm internal with DT Swiss 240exp hubs and Sapim CX Ray spokes. I talk to Swiss Side in Switzerland and these wheels spec out perfectly for the Continental Aero 111 in 29mm for the front and Continental GP 5000 S TR in a 30mm for the rear.
If you understand Aerodynamics, You will know who Swiss Side is.
Every wheel manufacturer will say whatever they need to say to get people to believe their wheels are better then their competitors.
Great stuff! I get the external rim width/measured tire width relationship is super important especially on the front, but if you have that part correct I'm not getting why you also need to worry about what the internai rim width is. I think I'd want a wider internal rim width, again as long as the external width is a match for the tire width. Can anyone help with this? Thanks!
@@earltnm a wider internal rim allows for the tyre to expand further (which is why you get higher measured width) and therefore lower tyre pressures and a marginally better (straighter, less bulbous) profile on the rim. But basically you are right, the internal is not that critical if the external width is a good match for the tyre. The Coyle ratio is simply made up I think. I keep my ear pretty close to the ground on this stuff and have heard nothing about the importance of this ratio before.
was interested to hear Jesse not mention that the new Farsports wheels come with CeramicSpeed bearings. In a lot of the brands and wheel around similar price and even some double the price don't do that IMO.
Light bikes are just fun to ride, simple as that. Bike companies have tried to forget this and offer "mid-range" (still $5k+ bikes) at nearly 9kg. If you're buying a top-of-the range bike, it should be sub-7 for a large.
The market wanted electronic gears, disc brakes, aero frames and deep wheels. So the weights went up.
Totally agree, you climb 2000m over a ride that extra 2kg costing you 5-10min
@@Mike0 Not sure they went up 2kg man and I think you’re overestimating the effect.
1kg on a 2km climb at 9% grade costs about 6 seconds.
@@Mike01kg less up Alpe du huez will save you 30 seconds! That’s all
Jesse we appreciate you, we also appreciate you Chris
Remco trains from Calpe at the Costa Blanca. All the pros go to the area since short time. The cycling is amazing there. Beautiful climbs. Hot weather for heat soaking. Don’t tell further 🤫
What wheel do you guys chose for Kermesse racing? Any budget
I just had a custom wheelset built with DT-180’s, hooked, 24mm ID, 50mm deep, 24H CXRay spokes and brass nipples for $1600. 1380 grams, 125 kg weight limit. Support your local wheelbuilder. And I can get replacement spokes and hub parts from *ANY* local bike shop in the US. Including the trick DT-180 SINC ceramic bearings.
I appreciate supporting your local business, but you can get that exact spec direct from China (same spokes, depth, hubs, everything) for under $1000. Although I wouldn't pay the premium for the ceramics personally.
@@jameseastwood402 unless you’re implying that the Chinese are cloning DT Swiss hubs and hub part dimensions to within DT Swiss manufacturing tolerances - then other than bearings I’m not going to find acceptable replacement parts for a Chinese hub in Bentonville Arkansas two days before a race.
@@petersouthernboy6327 yes actually. The DT Hubs patent expired and now they are all doing it.
@@jameseastwood402link? Pretty sure that this not possible with DT 180 hubs…
@@tapuzak maybe not. I don't know what is particularly unique about those hubs other than the bearings. It's the DT swiss ratchet system which is now widely copied after the patent expired. Point being you can spec Chinese wheels with DT swiss hubs in plenty of places.
I'm so surprised that Pogachar is giving away so much data during the Petter Attia interview. Power number, heart rate number, and VAM, and lactate.
but he also admits that the power numbers are unreliable b/c he uses a Shimano PM...
After all of Jesse's thoughts on aero wheels, I've been scouring AE for a deep aero rim that can fit inside my rim brake fork (30 or 31mm), CF spokes with hidden nipples and a reliable hub. A Conti 111 tyre hopefully will top it off as there is already a 25mm TT rear tyre.
The 2 bikes you each ride would surely benefit from an aero improvement. What would you actually build (that you could both use/test in your different bikes) in your 54-week-long journeys to sliding on your own rainbow jerseys next year in Lorne?
Did Tadej's effort to avoid a sprint give either of you any new strategies to beat the best in the world in your age groups, perhaps on that highest little kicker on the GOR, less than 20 clicks from the line?
Jesse, if you had been able to put that 'water-bottle recovery effort' in, whilst still in the front group, could that have yielded you a 110km 'Tadej' effort off the front to win sans a sprint?
As someone who is extremely semantical it drove me crazy hearing all the could’ve, should’ve , possibly etc…. In the wheel portion of the show. It was all opinion based. Like Jesse said he’s not an engineer. Giving “advice” that contradicts the manufacturer’s suggestion(Hunt). 🤔
Where is the industry headed in terms of rim/tire width? and if I'm buying a wheelset today, what would be a good internal width to future proof (at least as many years as possible) for future development?
I'm with Chris as far as naming power meters/HR monitors/Radar/SRAM stuff, i have multiples of all of it and i have to know it's working before i leave the house! I bought a Duro also because i use their running watch (battery life on that is incredible also!!!).....i really want that lap screen for efforts and my firmware doesn't show it, when was it released? Mine says up to date and is version 3.0608.0
Quick question for you both. Do the aero frame benefits still hold true when your typical rides have a climbing ratio of 1000ft for every 10 miles riding or would a climbing frame be advantageous? Thanks. Great podcast series by the way. 👍
Oh, that's the split screen. I thought it was that big useless area permanently taking up 1/3 of the surface area. Glad we cleared that up
How wide does a 28mm Continental GP5000 measure on a wheel with a 24mm internal rim width such as the farsports 2025 evo c's? I'm getting 30mm measured width with those tires on my current 21mm internal width wheels already.
Agree on the head unit conversation. The Garmin has the profiles, but for some crazy reason they don't allow you to associate sensors and BIKE with the profiles! I am able to edit the names of the sensors, but would love a startup screen that lists the names and status of all the sensors currently connected. Can't count on Garmin to do that though as they simply don't listen to their consumers.
What missed from the Remco video was the WHY. It had what who where, but we didnt get any insight into why he'd do these types of blocks, where he is in his training etc etc.
Hi Jesse and Chris. Regarding the Hunt topic. The updated wheelset of the guy who messaged is the Hunt Carbon Disc 50, not the Sub-50 you mentioned. This updated version is 22mm internal and 30mm external and costs around £700 for the set. What tyre width do you recommend for this? Thanks
Ask Jasper Philipsen. He won a TDF sprint on 30mm tires(front and rear) with Dura Ace 21mm internal and 28mm external rims;)
You are talking about tire width, but where it matters is in the front. Keep 105% or as close at possible in front and go wider on the rear. The airflow there is unpredictable mess anyway. I have 29 front and 31 rear (measured) on my 29 external rims and pretty happy about it. The benefits of wider tires outweights aero losses.
I don’t understand the logic behind it. If the real width of a 28mm tire is 30mm on an 24/31.5mm width rim, shouldn’t it be as fast as a true 30mm tire on the appropriate rim?
My 10 year old Roubaix sl4 Ultegra weighs 7.5kg without pedals. For 18k I would want to be at 6.6kg or no deal.
My 10 year old SL4 weighs 6.7 with bottle cages, pedals, dual power meter, 50mm rims and computer mount. I can get it down to 6.5 by changing mechs and cassette. Not bad for a 58.
Really enjoyed the wheel diameter discussion lads, great work 👏
Thanks for watching the show!
"doesn't that annoy you?" Jessi is all out trying to trigger Chris.
Haha, don't worry Aussies love that kind of banter.
1091g as weighed. No.6 works 30/30, $1350 with code GC10. Best freaking wheels I’ve ridden, especially at a 120kg max rider weight.
Regarding the wide tires on the Bora wheels: I think that no longer really applies when the rim is that shallow right? Same for gravel where it is kind of a waste to use very high rim profiles to a certain point , if you're putting on a massive knobbly tire.
amazing wheel data! Thanks Jesse
Hi guys, love your show.
I had the pleasure of riding with Remco in livigno last year on matching TT bikes. He’s a gentleman.
If he’s in Alicante he might with Valverde who lives there in a prefect climate for cycling.
Thanks for your comment. Glad you enjoy the show
in our era the number 6,8kg feels like a sales factor more than a limit for a safety bike, and something to ralate to when discussing bike tech. It still just a grabbed number.
Chris may be one of the few people served better with the Reserves and that is Off-the-front break away riders. The reserves are marginally more aero, but for all other forms of racing, the better acceleration performance feels better. My deep reserves that came with the S5 have been collecting dust since I got a set of CRW 50/60 wheels. yes they are more "fun" to ride too like a light bike.
I’m with Chris. I name my sensors just to make sure the right ones are connected between bikes.
SRAM/Zipp released the 454 NSW, 303 & 404 Firecrest in 2020. I think they are the last of the brand name manufacturers to not have made updates. So it makes sense the rim profiles are outdated
This may be controversial but I have been testing two wheelsets lately from a Chinese manufacturer which have exact same rims but the where they differ is the spokes and bearings. One being Steel CX Ray spokes with steel bearing and the other with carbon 5mm spokes and ceramic bearings.
After back to back testing, I think Ceramic bearings in a wheel hub is neither here nor there compared the good quality steel bearings. There was no difference in getting either wheelset up to speed and maintaining.
I think that Ceramic bearings in places where there isn't a massive diameter needing to move around the bearing then Ceramic I image would be more beneficial ie jockey wheels but for a wheelset in my experience once you have your system weight up to speed, the level of resistance between the two bearings is negligible.
If you say that there is a difference, sure that's your experience but if your pedal efficiently isn't pro level, the "gains" between steel and Ceramic as small as they are will desolve.
Regarding ratios for rim width etc, I though on one of your collaborations it was mentioned that the important ratio for aerodynamics was the tyre to rim width. I can’t remember the ratio, but the rim width on its own was less important than the tyre to wheel width with the tyre being a little wider than the max rim width for best aerodynamics
Perhaps one question from someone who doesn't know any better. I am noticing that Rovals, Visions and DT Swiss are all narrower internal width, but are also hooked at least DT's and Rovals are. Perhaps the hook is adding 1mm from each side? And therefore when you have hookless rims they would measure more?
Or why these brands are sticking narrower. Maybe they perform better and going super wide isnt always the answer
The hooks on the rovals are really interesting, really long hooks on the front so that the front and rear have the same internal width even though the external widths are different
Generally the internal measurement is taken below the hook, so the hook is not included
@@discbrakefan Not true in any diagram I've ever seen.
@@ChadMcCan-eg9km Ok Chad.
I'm riding a Winspace T1500 frameset with the Hyper D45 wheelset.
There is no point for me to spend my money on big brand names to get something that is probably not better than some chines brands !
The value for the money spent on some chines brands is juste unmatched !
That split screen is sick
It really is a great feature!👍🏼
What brands are people going for rim brake wheelsets? all these new nice wheelsets are disc only and us rim brake Master racers who won't let go are being left behind in regards youtube content.
Was thinking the same. Winspace Hypers would be some kind of starting point for me. Pertual Sharp wheels on Panda Podium also look ok.
OMG thank you guys ive been this close to buying the 1099 farsports wheel
I think you’d be happy with them!
@@ChrisMillerCycling actually wheelsfar have a rim with 26internal and 34 external-might get that one instead
I'm 22min in and they act like big companies are making worse parts on purpose? Is no one going to realize the lighter something gets the more fragile it is? The big brands have a responsibility to sell wheels that won't crack under a million different conditions. Same goes for Dura Ace/SRAM etc. Can they make lighter parts? - 100%. Will they last? probably not.
See your mistake is using that thing called common sense.
Years back, Enve or ZIPP posted cut aways (sawed a few Chinese rims in half) and on the inside it looked unfinished. Which meant a weak carbon structure or unsafe. I would guess all of that has been approved. 2nd is the layout and type of carbon, super light is not used in critical areas of the frame, like the bottom bracket. Unless Far Sports has crafted a new manufacturing technique, I would guess they made a carbon material/layout choice that other manufactures aren’t willing to do. Are they safe is the big question for me?
Moving forward: I dont think the Inner-Outer ratio is matter much, whats matter most is rim depth. According to:
"At 30km/h the trend line equation is shown below. Very loosely, every mm of rim depth is worth about 0.25W reduction in power
At 50km/h the trend line equation is shown below. At this speed, every mm of rim depth is worth 0.84W of power reduction" By Hambini aged 5
Then, with a fixed tire width, so frontal area close the same: measured width of the tire to inner width of rim, to outer width of rim, a figure 8 pattern, not in %, but in terms of mm difference. By design they can make it better or worse a bit, but the bigger the difference in those points, the worst the rim gets, especially head on.
Lets say 28mm tire on a roval measures 29mm, then it goes to 21mm at the bead, 8mm difference, then it goes 35 out at rim, 14mm difference. 8+14=22. Bontrager would be 30mm to 23mm, for 7mm difference, then to 31,5mm, another 8.5mm, so 7+8,5=15,5mm. So the Bontrager should be a bit faster, especially if the sum of the air is coming head on. Roval has much deeper rear wheel, so as a set might be faster, but the front wheel should be a bit better on the bontrager, and the tires are also 1mm wider, 2mm inner width results 1mm tire width as a rule of thumb.
Stability: Now depth is the biggest enemy, then depth/width ratio is matters, the bigger is the worse is. Then the figure 8 patten, but now the tables are turned the bigger the number the better. Again design choices can mate some difference, like Obermayer rims/spokes are an old design, and makes a triangular-sharp shape, to be very stiff therfore very light as well, but it comes with aero penalty, especially in stability.
I must say that with the DT a Swiss wheels you should run 28mm tyres. I have the ARC 1100 wheels with the 20 internal and 27 external width. I brought a KTM world tour bike from the 2022 season raced by Eliot Leitear (was his spare bike) and it came with the DT Swiss wheels and they came with 28mm GP 5000 tubeless and they run perfectly flush! I’m pretty sure B&B hotel team wouldn’t spec the bike with those wheels if they were slowing him down. I put a 30mm on the back now and it lightbulbs a bit but that’s ok. But 28mm tyres run flush
I name my sensors. It's not weird. It's helped me a number of times. Multiple bikes, multiple sensors. If for whatever reason you're having trouble connecting, you know which one to sort out.
Extralite 340C are 40mm deep hooked wheels and weigh 990g......
X-factor for the wheels. The farsports that were weighed had straight-flat spokes (poor choice) vs what looks like CX-rays on the Cadex (much better shape). Both had external nipple tho (which won't get specced on my wheel-builds). How the discs attach is also important to aero performance. Stop worrying about weight that is in the 100g-200g range, it is trivia IMO. Aero wins every single time unless doing very short very steep hill-climbs.
I'm going to race my S5 every single time over my weight weenie bike (I have a VERY light one).
I went for a deerobust (terrible name) 60mm set. Fabulous hubset, cxray (aero) spokes and internal nipples on the S5...I just wish I'd gone wider with them.
Far sports and wheelsfar are exactly the same. The farsports wheels you are talking about are running ceramicspeed branded bearings in their hubs.
Wheelsfar are their custom build wheelsets made generally with sapim spokes, and in my case DT350 hubs, but they seem to have about 6 hub options.
For UK hill climb races, you do need a saddle and seatpost. But some riders who only stand, have gone for tiny bmx saddles and plastic seatposts to save weight…
Thanks for that info.
Personally I love the way a 23 mm tyre feels on a 21 internal 29 external rim . I tried it after cannondale recommended this combo for their system 6 when it first come out.
Have you compared it to a 25?