Mar Wolfking no I think he let it happen Loghain wasn't interested in the Couslands but Howe always hated them so when Loghain came to Howe for support he allowed him to take Highever he didn't necessarily ordered it if he did he should've been surprised to see your character alive
To be honest I don't think it's either. There is nothing in any of the games that in any way imply that Loghain ordered it (when it happened he wouldn't have had anyone or any reason to order it). But I don't think he "just lets it happen" either, Howe performs his little slaughter before Loghain is ever in power, so it's more of a situation where Loghain basically has to confirm Howe's claims on the Cousland lands. If he doesn't he'd be facing even more opposition to his rule. At that point Howe controls all of North-Eastern Ferelden, basically to the gates of Denerim, so he's a even player in the game.
We know Loghain had Eamon poisoned and encouraged Ulfred to destabilize the Circle’s leadership well before Ostagar. I think Howe presented Loghain with fabricated documents which apparently showed that Teyrn Bryce Cousland had consorted with the Orlesian Empire. I don’t think Loghain needed any more reason than that to assume the Cousland family had betrayed the Kingdom.
Ironic that Loghain tries to justify enslaving the elves by arguing that the Alienage is too vulnerable to successfully protect yet it ends up being one of the few parts of Denerim that successfully keeps the darkspawn at bay. Loghain fail.
Marcus Kurze I think against a conventional threat he is actually a successful leader and commander, The Stolen Throne book shows this quite well. But he failed to recognise or understand the danger of the Blight. The best solution is to recruit him in my opinion, as he can become a major asset to the Wardens if he joins them.
@@TheMelancholicWriter Really?What exactly he has to offer to the Wardens?His skills as a Commander?No he let his troops against the wrong enemy for months making it easyer for the Darkspawn to ravage the Country while he was very eager to kill his own people.And his Skills as a fighter are also not very convincing.He is past his best years.
The entire nobility of Ferelden: Oh no, here they come. The Grey Wardens: *Walk into the middle of a landsmeet with enchanted weapons sparking electricity everywhere*
"None of you deserve a say in what happens here! None of you have spilled blood for this land the way I have! How dare you judge me!" The problem with this sentiment on Loghain's part is that the people at the Landsmeet had every right to judge him, as his heroism during The Orlesian Occupation was utterly irrelevant to the problem at hand. Heroes have a context and aren't eternal. They belong to a moment in time, and it's unfortunate that he couldn't see it that way.
+thomas brady Also, Human Noble Nan's story about Hohaku the Mabari, gives credence to this. Pride was Hohaku's undoing. Solas and the Evanuris aswell. Pride is apparently the most dangerous thing in DA.
Well said. People who have done great deeds in the past often seem to think that they're acts of heroism elevate them above others and that they should be treated accordingly, despite their original deed being long in the past. France suffered from this in 1940 when they called upon Phillip Petain, the hero of Verdun, to lead France against the invading Germans. The problem was that he wasn't just an old man. The main problem was that he had never evolved past his deeds in WW1 and had failed to keep pace.
Of course ignoring the Landsmeet is itself treason. He should have been arrested immediately upon refusing to stand down; I like to headcanon that my Warden respected his service to Fereldan enough that he or she gave Loghain a final honorable duel.
My eyes rolled into the back of my head when I heard him say that. How fucking arrogant of him to not only claim he’s above basic ethics due to his status and rank. But that he alone can and has sacrificed for the good of Fereldan. He’s best kept in the Wardens, we don’t lose his brilliance all the while keeping him in line.
Another thing; if you bring up Jowan poisoning Arl Eamon, the Grand Cleric will state that the Chantry will not overlook Loghain's actions and her proclamation counts as 2 votes.
If you bring up Jowan poisoning Arl Eamon, you need to have talked to the Bann who's brother is the Templar in Howe's dungeon and was the one who captured Jowan and brought him to Denerim. The Bann then backs you at the Landsmeet.
I find it strange that Riordan says that they need as many grey wardens in order to fight archdemon but does nothing to stop Alistair from leaving if you make Loghain a warden. Couldn't he take him on a side and explain those compeling reasons. The whole point to save Loghain was to have at least one more gry warden, but in the end with end up with three. What was the point of this choice then?
Damian Worek I've thought that, too. So we still only have 3 options, I would choose Alistair over Loghain. I just let Ali kill Loghain, lol. It makes him happy ;)
Damian Worek I think Riordan wanted Loghain spared specifically so that Loghain would be the Warden who would sacrifice their life to kill the Archdemon. He lets Alistair leave because Alistair will be king and he never intended Alistair to make that sacrifice anyway.
Yea but if the grea warden didn't step in Alistar would be executed so he would ned up dead anyway. I just think that devs didn't think this part through enough.
What I loved about this game most was the pageantry. Nothing was more beast than walking into the landsmeet with your party, all with enchanted weapons. It was like a movie you would make up as you go.
Some of the cutscenes are pretty Boss. Morrigan's intro over the PC's shoulder. Dog running alongside the fence to the party on his intro. Quite a few others
I do wish you always had a female Cousland in your party. Telling Anora you'll support her and then marrying Alistair to said Cousland is one of the best things a person can witness in life.
If I had made this game I would have the origins you didn't pick be party members and you would pick them up at certain points in the game (Cousland at Lothering, Brosca in Dust Town etc.)
Or even better ,take control over his mind as a blood mage lay down all armor and than let him fight you just in his underwear.That would be hillarious.
I love how they have the entire conversation of what to do over his dieing corpse. Wish he gurgled and gasped a few times. Maybe have a hand pop up into frame...until Dog comes over to clean up this gory mess
It wasn't fair either that Loghain accused the Wardens of failing spectacularly at Ostagar when even he knew that they were new recruits then and that there was no chance of victory at Ostagar either. It wasn't right of him to lay that at the Wardens feet though, cause since when are new recruits ever expected to be heroes in their first battle?
If Loghain just had kept a bit of Logic.Did he really thought there is Nothing Special in defeating a blight and did he really thought he could do better than the Wardens who had fought the darkspawn in more than a thousand jears?
@@YuGiOhAbridgeFAN As of the Landsmeet where Loghain is arguing with everyone The Grey Wardens had fought, and won, 4 different Blights over the course of 1,000 years...and every previous victory came at the cost of the life of the Grey Warden that struck the killing blow. It's obvious that the Grey Wardens know SOMETHING about The Blight that no one else does.
Okay but how the FUCK did Anora know that the Joining is often fatal? The Grey Wardens keep this a secret! I mean that's why Duncan killed Ser Jory, because he couldn't let him leave with the knowledge about the Joining.
Everyone knows the joining is fatal and many people die in the process. No one except for the Grey Wardens know the details of the process, like the fact that involves drinking the blood of the darkspawn, stuff like that. The fact that it is fatal is nothing new, no one is expected to survive long enough while serving the army, at least during the medieval era, so something like this isn't what they would be worried about. What is repulsive about the process is that one has to drink the blood of the darkspawn which is known to cause an excruciatingly painful death.
Its a death sentence, but no one actually knows it can be a death sentence as soon as you do the joining, all know that eventually all wardens die (hence they go to the deep roads and die in battle to no succumb to corruption), thats why ser jory was killed, he knew how the ritual was done, and that could not be allowed to be known,
Dragon Age: Origins was heavily inspired by George R.R. Martins novels. The Gray Wardens are very similar to the Nights Watch, the Fereldin civil war over the throne, Darkspawn and the Others, and multiple little references.
"Oh... that would be me. Right, um..." And that's why I could never betray Alistair xD He's clearly in a position in which he never wanted to be in, had to make very uncomfortable decisions and still retained that chipper, sort of bumbling character about him.
My game must have glitched when I did this. Had literally everyone on my side (except the one coded to always support Loghain) and yet was still declared to have lost. Had a big fight until a Revered Mother stepped in.
It's crazy revisiting this game as an adult and reconsidering my original decisions made when I was a kid now that I have better understanding of the nuances and politics in Origins.
The writing here is just so sharp, man. The politics, history, and psychology of all the characters here is just amazing. David Gaider, Jennifer Helper, Mary Kirby, etc. are just brilliant to me and their work reflects it. DA:O is the closest that video games have come to great, gritty fantasy epics like ASOIAF in writing quality.
I would LOVE to hear how exactly Loghain would plan to kill the Archdemon, especially after it revives itself through another Darkspawn since after all, he does not think he needs the Wardens.
One of the best quests in any video game ever. The sheer amount of different outcomes depending on your earlier or current choices is astonishing. This is the pinnacle of any "choices matter" RPG.
Logain logic: Anora should be queen because she married Cailan. Alistair can't be king because he might not (though he actually does) have royal blood.
Loghain supported Anora because: 1. She's his daughter. 2. Anora is a good ruler; a fact supported by many including but not limited to Eamon and Josephine. 3. Alistair, despite his good nature and skill as a warrior, is no diplomat. The battlefields of politic is not won by swords, but by words. A hardened Alistair is undoubtedly a better king than Cailan, but even with the likes of Eamon and Teagan as his advisors, he just barely succeeded in negotiating a peace treaty with Orlais.
If I'm not mistaken Loghain is one of the few persons who know not only the truth about Alistair's dad, but also his mom, thanks to that Deep Roads trip with Maric. Which makes him that much of a damned snake.
I wish that every time I was a Nobel (I always want Alister to be happily married), that I could tell the story of Hohaku, the Dog that Bit. And then you could ask what Logan and Anora (if she deceives you) think about how Hohaku should have been punished, and no matter what answer Logan/They give you, you can start calling them Hohaku, because the two are too Egotistically Proud, that both of them think they are the best solution for Ferelden, which they clearly are not.
That's nice, but you can always double-cross Anora anyways, by agreeing to support her, then killing her father and locking her away. She certainly asked for it.
the landsmeet is like the heaviest scene in the whole game. you get to see Loghain more as a human rather than a power-mad maniac at the end of it which makes it hard to decide wether to give him redemption or not - and since he is a former hero you sort of want to give him the redemption he deserves but that would mean having to say goodbye to Alistair who might not be as heroic as Loghain but has been your wardens friend and supporter throughout the game That makes DA:O so damn epic...
And i never even think About it to make Loghain a warden.I wouldnt trust him in battle and trhats what is most important in the fight against an enemy like the darkspawn.And btw why does he deserves any Kind of redemption?He fucked up and it dosnt matter at all what he did 30 jears ago.The only Thing thats important is what he did during the blight and this time he did more Damage to Ferelden than the Orlaisians ever could.
Jeez, I'm surprised that custom looking warden could even lift her swords. She looks like she just scored a modeling contract in Paris and exclusively dines on blow and champagne.
While rulers have to make hard choices sometimes, treating everyone like a pawn will bite you in the ass eventually. That's what happened to Anora in my 'canon' play through and what should happen to her.
Personally, if I were Loghain, I'd accept Orlesian help, but require it be limited. I get his concerns about Orlais trying to take over again once they got in, but if there's a small enough amount of them to not be too much of a problem wiping out when they get uppity, then hey, you get Orlesians dying against the Blight where your guys would have been, how is that not a win?
he is just an idiot simple Explanation.Even after 30 jears he is still stuck in the ferelden-orlesian war.He just isnt able to see the darkspawn as something mutch worse than any orlesian occupation could ever be.
@@aledrone759 Old answer but yes, he talks about how some guys fought against peasseants, rape and do what they want without consequences. Beyond hate Indeed.
I think after hearing Loghain speak for so long in this game only now did I realize he is none other but Kain from the LoK series. I feel ashamed for taking so long...
I may have been one of the few, but in my first playthrough I actually accepted Loghain into the Grey Wardens, just because I felt that getting stuck on the past won't get us anywhere, look at Loghain himself, he was stuck in the past with Orlais. We needed another Grey Warden, playing judge, politics and "who deserves what" wasn't something you'd have time for in such a crisis. Now what I did not expect was that Alistair would barge out, it actually made me lose respect for him. I always felt that to be a true hero and Grey Warden, you gotta sacrifice yourself, your own feelings and judge things less in black and white to save the world. I didn't like Loghain, he deserved punishment for the other crimes he committed, but such an opinion had no space when the Ferelden and possibly the world was in great danger, and here stood one of the greatest generals and fighters the country had. I felt Alistair acted rather selfish when he sought revenge and was rather narrow minded, without thinking beyond his and the Warden's personal experience. Alistair wanted revenge for Duncan, but imo I doubt even he would want his death to be avenged during a time when more needless deaths are unnecessary. It kinda kept me from putting Alistair on the throne in latter playthroughs, as I felt he acted rather selfish and biased while Anora, while manipulative, knew how to rule without being affected by her emotions. I ofcourse found out if you told Alistair to take more responsibility after meeting his sister, he becomes a rather good king and doesn't barge out if you keep Loghain alive. This is what makes DAO amazing though, everything was so grey, no black or white, and being unbiased led to some very interesting choices which I feel not that many games do. Most games plays on the unbiased spectrum, but it's truly interesting to even put yourself into the Warden's shoes and let your emotions seep in, as not all "good" choices are truly good.
That’s because every character, including the PC can’t be put into a simple box. Is Alistair a careless man who would make a terrible monarch or would he rise to the occasion? Did Leliana really receive a vision from the Maker or did she make it up longing for the life she had before? Is Morrigan really looking to escape her mother’s shadow, or is Flemeth’s abuse something she can’t grow out of? Did Loghain really intend that his son-in-law and Duncan die, was he being truly objective when he thought Ostagar was a loss, could he have saved Cailan and then retreated?
So he stays a hero, even though he is a slaver, and killed people of Redcliffe, Highever, and the Circle which should've been directed to the efforts to win the Blight. Is a general clouded by hate more useful than a thousand people? One who actually actively hinders your effort to save Ferelden from the Blight?
Landsmeet never fails to surprise me. Reached that quest today, finally, and started following your steps so my Warden could finally make things official with Alistair. I thought it was going to turn out just like in the video and suddenly Loghain simply got voted out of nowhere (even though I had the support of the Banns and rescued their relatives in Howe's dungeons), this shit was funny cause I wasn't expecting this outcome at all. All bloodsheds and betrayals after I got to that same ending you did anyway, except it had more... Adventure, I guess? Lmao Makes one realize one single thing done wrong can change the Landsmeet outcomes
Yep. The only other major I would like is to be able to have the entire party with me at all times. "Going to storm the Castle. Oghren, Lil, Zev, Wynne, Shale you all sit this one out."
Well the reason he dumps your non-noble Warden if his personality isn't hardened is because of morality...it wouldn't be 'honorable' for him to maintain a sexual relationship with the Warden if he's married to another woman...whether he hates Anora's guts or not. Hardening his personality allows him to be more 'selfish' and maintain his relationship with the Warden married or not.
For the duel, I was an Arcane Warrior/Blood Mage. With all passive support spells to increase my health, armor, dealt damage, and blood magic, Loghain was so ridiculously easy to defeat. Magic versus Brute Force, magic will win every time. Then add the new Battlemage specialization & new spells in Awakening. W/ the Arcane Warrior/ Blood Mage/Battlemage build, you become nearly invincible with all the support spells that you have at your disposal!
8:10 That may be true Riordan however what about Warden Hunters? The very same people killing the only one's capable of ending a Blight? Even if they're a Warden themselves do you honestly expect to trust them enough for teamwork against the Blight? I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled another Ostagar move, everyone of my playthroughs I've killed him.
MatrixMiles17 Loghain is a true scumbag. On many levels. Always strange to see some people say to let him live. Bottom line, without him u always defeat the darkspawn, thus invalidating their argument. The way he deflects his evil is insufferable also.
And btw I am not convinced by his Arguments too.A General?Yes of Course!A General who let his troops against the wrong enemy for months.The darkspawn was already devastating the south while he fought and killed his own landsmen making it easyer for the darkspawn.And his skills in Fighting Arent very impresive to me.And the best reason I dont replace him with Alistair who was my friend and brother in arms from nearly the beginning.So even if I would ignore all hes done i never let him become a warden,
Oh and not to Mention thanks to him we have so few Wardens.Not only because of Ostagar but also because of his stupid move of closing the border and forbid anybody from Orlais including the Wardens to come to Ferelden.
Warden Hunters are included as part of the search for Grey Wardens. It doesn't matter who you are, if you have the skills, you are welcomed amongst the Wardens' ranks. Isn't that what Duncan believed when he recruited the Warden? Killing Loghain isn't what Duncan would've done...
There's strong argument to be made for however you view Loghain especially after playing dlc's. There is evidence that he is indeed a treacherous bastard that left the king to die in a bid to sieze power and there is plenty of evidence that suggests the battle was a lost cause and he only made his decision to spare the lives of his men from being slaughtered for nothing.
the warden has on one set of "The Phoenix Armory for Females" and Alistair has on the Warden runic armor (which is also available in black) they are all mods though so go find them on dragon age Nexus
It is SO satisfying that, even with Anora speaking against the Warden, the nobles still denounce her like that. Also that armor that your PC and Alistair are wearing is magnificent.
To my understanding, the option comes up for all 3 (human, elf and dwarf) but only the human will marry Alistair. The elf and dwarf instead become... an advisor of sorts, similar to how Loghain was to King Cailin. I could be wrong, but I think that's how it works.
Anora betrayed me the two times I have beaten the game (even when we arranged a marriage with her and Alistair), and both times I won thanks to the Crows... It's so good to win lol
+LightningSamus The Human Noble was formally the second highest ranking family behind royalty. The Couslands apparently were given the choice to be the royal family but they declined it. Even though they were marked as traitors and only two had survived, the Couslands may have still had a slight claim to the throne.
I. Hate. The. Landsmeet. So. Much. But thank you for posting this. I just wish I knew of this earlier. TO be honest though, there's no way I'd let a slaver support me, just or wrong.
In my latest playthrough I had all of the nobles' support even when Anora had betrayed me and I still lost... I was hoping that I could see her humiliated...
@NeaTheWhiteWolf That's because the Landsmeet doesn't actually work on a majority vote, a decision of the game designers so you wouldn't win the Landsmeet TOO easily. Instead, there's a "score," and points are added to your score if you present good arguments and/or win a noble to your side; points are subtracted for votes against you. You have to have a score of at least 5 in order to win the Landsmeet, AFTER all the additions and subtractions. Check the Wikia article.
@sefsup05 To add to what EliteGamerAlliance told you; as he said that noble votes for you if you do all the assignments under Trial of the Crows. But the specific "personal matter" he references is that you indirectly helped rescue his son. His son was kidnapped by Captain Chase, Arl Howe's minion, and held for ransom. Chase breaks his word and the boy isn't there when you fight him, but your fight provides a distraction for the Crows to rescue the boy for real.
No he didnt.He gave up and was executed instead of fighting til the end.But what can be expected from someone who didnt even had the balls to stand clear for what he did in Ostagar.His only Explanation for the kings death was that the Grey Wardens betrayed him and thats why he died beside them.Blaming someone who cant defend himself is just pathetic.And than the Change in the landsmeet wher suddenly the Wardens didnt kill Cailan but only failed to avoid his death by failing to defeat an entire army of Darkspawn with only a dozend or so fighters.Thats not how a man reacts.
After meeting Goldanna, you can tell Alistair that everyone looks out for only him/herself. He questions you later at camp, but if you repeat that advice, he becomes "hardened." If you let Loghain become a Grey Warden, hardened Alistair will actually become king instead of running away. If married to Anora, the epilogue says he spends lots of time at court learning from her, and that Ferelden was grateful for the Blight because it gave them two much beloved and capable rulers.
Look at it this way; she can have her cake (the throne) but she cant eat it too (her father) unless you are aiming to be king in which case you have to give her what she wants.
The thing that pisses me off is that Anora is a fucking karma Houdini. She can backstab you twice, side with her father who tried to have her killed, slander the Wardens (the only people who can save the world) in order to get the crown and her worst ending is going to a gilded cage.
Wow, someone had a bit of an attitude there judging by those last few words. I have also spared Loghain and had him make the ultimate sacrifice and it was actually a really neat way to have him redeem himself, but when I made that comment I was talking hypothetically about how, if he kills all the Wardens or banishes them, how he would kill the Archdemon.
@kiriko0 That would be from the Grey Warden Runic Armor set. It's on the Nexus, just search for "warden runic armor" and it should be the only one that comes up.
"No one spilled blood for this land the way I did."
Warden, "I've had a pretty busy few months here"
It was actually a year, bc when I spoke to Wynne she commented how I became a warden almost a year ago
When I play as a human noble, I let Alistair fight Loghain. In my mind, that's his fight, mine was with Howe.
I gladly killed loghain for ordering the death of my family and the destruction of my home
Did Loghain order it? I always assumed he just let it happen.
Mar Wolfking no I think he let it happen Loghain wasn't interested in the Couslands but Howe always hated them so when Loghain came to Howe for support he allowed him to take Highever he didn't necessarily ordered it if he did he should've been surprised to see your character alive
To be honest I don't think it's either. There is nothing in any of the games that in any way imply that Loghain ordered it (when it happened he wouldn't have had anyone or any reason to order it).
But I don't think he "just lets it happen" either, Howe performs his little slaughter before Loghain is ever in power, so it's more of a situation where Loghain basically has to confirm Howe's claims on the Cousland lands. If he doesn't he'd be facing even more opposition to his rule. At that point Howe controls all of North-Eastern Ferelden, basically to the gates of Denerim, so he's a even player in the game.
We know Loghain had Eamon poisoned and encouraged Ulfred to destabilize the Circle’s leadership well before Ostagar. I think Howe presented Loghain with fabricated documents which apparently showed that Teyrn Bryce Cousland had consorted with the Orlesian Empire. I don’t think Loghain needed any more reason than that to assume the Cousland family had betrayed the Kingdom.
This is a good example of ,” you either die a hero, or live long enough to be the villain.”
Ironic that Loghain tries to justify enslaving the elves by arguing that the Alienage is too vulnerable to successfully protect yet it ends up being one of the few parts of Denerim that successfully keeps the darkspawn at bay. Loghain fail.
Did he not fail in anything?
Marcus Kurze I think against a conventional threat he is actually a successful leader and commander, The Stolen Throne book shows this quite well. But he failed to recognise or understand the danger of the Blight. The best solution is to recruit him in my opinion, as he can become a major asset to the Wardens if he joins them.
Fuck him. Such a villain I love to hate.
@@TheMelancholicWriter Really?What exactly he has to offer to the Wardens?His skills as a Commander?No he let his troops against the wrong enemy for months making it easyer for the Darkspawn to ravage the Country while he was very eager to kill his own people.And his Skills as a fighter are also not very convincing.He is past his best years.
@@marcuskurze9759 Have him kill the arch demon that way he dies and you don't loose your self or Allister
Riordan: "Wait! There is another option!"
Alistair: *EYEBROW*
The entire nobility of Ferelden: Oh no, here they come.
The Grey Wardens: *Walk into the middle of a landsmeet with enchanted weapons sparking electricity everywhere*
If you are going to be judge then be judge with both your words and drip
"None of you deserve a say in what happens here! None of you have spilled blood for this land the way I have! How dare you judge me!"
The problem with this sentiment on Loghain's part is that the people at the Landsmeet had every right to judge him, as his heroism during The Orlesian Occupation was utterly irrelevant to the problem at hand. Heroes have a context and aren't eternal. They belong to a moment in time, and it's unfortunate that he couldn't see it that way.
Cole Jordan I agree
+thomas brady Also, Human Noble Nan's story about Hohaku the Mabari, gives credence to this. Pride was Hohaku's undoing. Solas and the Evanuris aswell. Pride is apparently the most dangerous thing in DA.
Well said. People who have done great deeds in the past often seem to think that they're acts of heroism elevate them above others and that they should be treated accordingly, despite their original deed being long in the past. France suffered from this in 1940 when they called upon Phillip Petain, the hero of Verdun, to lead France against the invading Germans. The problem was that he wasn't just an old man. The main problem was that he had never evolved past his deeds in WW1 and had failed to keep pace.
Of course ignoring the Landsmeet is itself treason. He should have been arrested immediately upon refusing to stand down; I like to headcanon that my Warden respected his service to Fereldan enough that he or she gave Loghain a final honorable duel.
My eyes rolled into the back of my head when I heard him say that. How fucking arrogant of him to not only claim he’s above basic ethics due to his status and rank. But that he alone can and has sacrificed for the good of Fereldan. He’s best kept in the Wardens, we don’t lose his brilliance all the while keeping him in line.
Voice acting of Loghain Mac Tir is beyond beauty
Another thing; if you bring up Jowan poisoning Arl Eamon, the Grand Cleric will state that the Chantry will not overlook Loghain's actions and her proclamation counts as 2 votes.
If you bring up Jowan poisoning Arl Eamon, you need to have talked to the Bann who's brother is the Templar in Howe's dungeon and was the one who captured Jowan and brought him to Denerim. The Bann then backs you at the Landsmeet.
I find it strange that Riordan says that they need as many grey wardens in order to fight archdemon but does nothing to stop Alistair from leaving if you make Loghain a warden. Couldn't he take him on a side and explain those compeling reasons. The whole point to save Loghain was to have at least one more gry warden, but in the end with end up with three. What was the point of this choice then?
Damian Worek I've thought that, too. So we still only have 3 options, I would choose Alistair over Loghain. I just let Ali kill Loghain, lol. It makes him happy ;)
Damian Worek Because Alistair is becoming King anyway so he'll quit the Grey Wardens in a matter of time.
Damian Worek I think Riordan wanted Loghain spared specifically so that Loghain would be the Warden who would sacrifice their life to kill the Archdemon. He lets Alistair leave because Alistair will be king and he never intended Alistair to make that sacrifice anyway.
Yea but if the grea warden didn't step in Alistar would be executed so he would ned up dead anyway. I just think that devs didn't think this part through enough.
+Damian Worek As Cousland I love killing Loghain.
What I loved about this game most was the pageantry.
Nothing was more beast than walking into the landsmeet with your party, all with enchanted weapons.
It was like a movie you would make up as you go.
Some of the cutscenes are pretty Boss. Morrigan's intro over the PC's shoulder. Dog running alongside the fence to the party on his intro.
Quite a few others
I do wish you always had a female Cousland in your party. Telling Anora you'll support her and then marrying Alistair to said Cousland is one of the best things a person can witness in life.
oh heck yeah full on agree
Hi
And as a newly minted Queen and all ready head Warden her first order of business shoulda been to gut Anora on the spot
If I had made this game I would have the origins you didn't pick be party members and you would pick them up at certain points in the game (Cousland at Lothering, Brosca in Dust Town etc.)
@@williamturner875 maybe you could only pick up one or two Orgins before the others die and they can be voiced
"I STAND BY LOGHAIN! WE'VE NO HOPE OF VICTORY OTHERWISE"
And you have no hope of seeing another day in your life **pulls out sword**
Anora: "That is uncharacteristically wise of you."
Alistair: "Yes, well, don't let it get around. I have a reputation."
Haha, deadpan! xD
A pity you didn't get the chance to loot Loghain's corpse.
Kay Redfield one of reasons to Harden Alistair and conscript Loghain.
Or even better ,take control over his mind as a blood mage lay down all armor and than let him fight you just in his underwear.That would be hillarious.
yea there should be river dane armor set if im not wrong
I love how they have the entire conversation of what to do over his dieing corpse.
Wish he gurgled and gasped a few times. Maybe have a hand pop up into frame...until Dog comes over to clean up this gory mess
@@Bubbles99718 Pretty sure he was decapitated.
If Duncan just explained the whole Archdemon process to Cailan and Loghain all of this could have been avoided.
It wasn't fair either that Loghain accused the Wardens of failing spectacularly at Ostagar when even he knew that they were new recruits then and that there was no chance of victory at Ostagar either. It wasn't right of him to lay that at the Wardens feet though, cause since when are new recruits ever expected to be heroes in their first battle?
If Loghain just had kept a bit of Logic.Did he really thought there is Nothing Special in defeating a blight and did he really thought he could do better than the Wardens who had fought the darkspawn in more than a thousand jears?
@@marcuskurze9759 Ancient forms of combat are rarely useful.
@@YuGiOhAbridgeFAN What exactly do you mean with Ancient forms of Combat?
@@YuGiOhAbridgeFAN As of the Landsmeet where Loghain is arguing with everyone The Grey Wardens had fought, and won, 4 different Blights over the course of 1,000 years...and every previous victory came at the cost of the life of the Grey Warden that struck the killing blow. It's obvious that the Grey Wardens know SOMETHING about The Blight that no one else does.
Okay but how the FUCK did Anora know that the Joining is often fatal? The Grey Wardens keep this a secret! I mean that's why Duncan killed Ser Jory, because he couldn't let him leave with the knowledge about the Joining.
Mega Rage I know and it makes me angry 😂
Everyone knows the joining is fatal and many people die in the process. No one except for the Grey Wardens know the details of the process, like the fact that involves drinking the blood of the darkspawn, stuff like that. The fact that it is fatal is nothing new, no one is expected to survive long enough while serving the army, at least during the medieval era, so something like this isn't what they would be worried about. What is repulsive about the process is that one has to drink the blood of the darkspawn which is known to cause an excruciatingly painful death.
Its a death sentence, but no one actually knows it can be a death sentence as soon as you do the joining, all know that eventually all wardens die (hence they go to the deep roads and die in battle to no succumb to corruption), thats why ser jory was killed, he knew how the ritual was done, and that could not be allowed to be known,
Well, she's a queen, and that's why Ferelden nobles don't want to send their sons and daughters to the Grey Warden (Human Origin intro)
"The Joining itself is often fatal, is it not?"
*Beerus voice* "Ssshh! Keep that under wraps!"
Old man: "I stand by Lo-Ack!" (got shot by my crossbow)
Me: "There, 100% of nobles support me" (holstered crossbow)
SkullCapper Ah, I see you don't need to be mentored in Fereldan politics, then.
Orlais would never back up Loghain though, he doesn't play "that" kind of game. Shame.. seeing how good he was at betraying. Had potential LOL
Actually, saiying that Loghain sell slave to Orlais make you lose a vote. As strange as it is...
why do the dirty work, that's what Zevran is for.
@@richbarhorst7570 More like Antivan politics.
I've been thinking this for a while now, but Dragon Age reminds me a lot of Game of Thrones.
Right doe!!!
***** Well except for the fact that Dragon age came first
Didn't game of thrones come first? In book form anyway
You're right, in 1996
Dragon Age: Origins was heavily inspired by George R.R. Martins novels. The Gray Wardens are very similar to the Nights Watch, the Fereldin civil war over the throne, Darkspawn and the Others, and multiple little references.
your warden had too many plastic surgeries
"Oh... that would be me. Right, um..." And that's why I could never betray Alistair xD He's clearly in a position in which he never wanted to be in, had to make very uncomfortable decisions and still retained that chipper, sort of bumbling character about him.
lol
My game must have glitched when I did this. Had literally everyone on my side (except the one coded to always support Loghain) and yet was still declared to have lost. Had a big fight until a Revered Mother stepped in.
Loghain worked so hard to keep the past present. He became blind to the future
It's crazy revisiting this game as an adult and reconsidering my original decisions made when I was a kid now that I have better understanding of the nuances and politics in Origins.
I love your mod for Alistair's hair, as him having the same haircut as his late half-brother makes it crystal clear, how alike both are.
You are one in very few. Most people just complain about the hair. 😆 I was digging the Cailan vibes for this playthrough.
The writing here is just so sharp, man. The politics, history, and psychology of all the characters here is just amazing. David Gaider, Jennifer Helper, Mary Kirby, etc. are just brilliant to me and their work reflects it. DA:O is the closest that video games have come to great, gritty fantasy epics like ASOIAF in writing quality.
I would LOVE to hear how exactly Loghain would plan to kill the Archdemon, especially after it revives itself through another Darkspawn since after all, he does not think he needs the Wardens.
One of the best quests in any video game ever. The sheer amount of different outcomes depending on your earlier or current choices is astonishing. This is the pinnacle of any "choices matter" RPG.
I got real tired of Loghain's bullshit.
Amen to that!
Honestly Loghain brought this on himself no pity or remorse from me.
Logain logic: Anora should be queen because she married Cailan. Alistair can't be king because he might not (though he actually does) have royal blood.
Love the heel face turn...
Loghain supported Anora because:
1. She's his daughter.
2. Anora is a good ruler; a fact supported by many including but not limited to Eamon and Josephine.
3. Alistair, despite his good nature and skill as a warrior, is no diplomat. The battlefields of politic is not won by swords, but by words. A hardened Alistair is undoubtedly a better king than Cailan, but even with the likes of Eamon and Teagan as his advisors, he just barely succeeded in negotiating a peace treaty with Orlais.
If I'm not mistaken Loghain is one of the few persons who know not only the truth about Alistair's dad, but also his mom, thanks to that Deep Roads trip with Maric. Which makes him that much of a damned snake.
I was saddened when they wouldn't let me allow my dog to defeat Loghain. Really, it would be so funny.
I wish that every time I was a Nobel (I always want Alister to be happily married), that I could tell the story of Hohaku, the Dog that Bit.
And then you could ask what Logan and Anora (if she deceives you) think about how Hohaku should have been punished,
and no matter what answer Logan/They give you, you can start calling them Hohaku,
because the two are too Egotistically Proud, that both of them think they are the best solution for Ferelden, which they clearly are not.
Why did everyone gasp when Loghain drew his sword, like they were hoping for a fist fight?
That's nice, but you can always double-cross Anora anyways, by agreeing to support her, then killing her father and locking her away. She certainly asked for it.
the landsmeet is like the heaviest scene in the whole game.
you get to see Loghain more as a human rather than a power-mad maniac at the end of it which makes it hard to decide wether to give him redemption or not - and since he is a former hero you sort of want to give him the redemption he deserves but that would mean having to say goodbye to Alistair who might not be as heroic as Loghain but has been your wardens friend and supporter throughout the game
That makes DA:O so damn epic...
And i never even think About it to make Loghain a warden.I wouldnt trust him in battle and trhats what is most important in the fight against an enemy like the darkspawn.And btw why does he deserves any Kind of redemption?He fucked up and it dosnt matter at all what he did 30 jears ago.The only Thing thats important is what he did during the blight and this time he did more Damage to Ferelden than the Orlaisians ever could.
Jeez, I'm surprised that custom looking warden could even lift her swords. She looks like she just scored a modeling contract in Paris and exclusively dines on blow and champagne.
ShE’s tOo BeAuTiFuL tO bE sTrOnG
hard to be a model when you had too many plastic surgeries and ended up looking like weird, plastic doll.
While rulers have to make hard choices sometimes, treating everyone like a pawn will bite you in the ass eventually.
That's what happened to Anora in my 'canon' play through and what should happen to her.
After the Cauthrian betrayal I wanted a "gut her" option
Nah, Anora is the best ruler.
Personally, if I were Loghain, I'd accept Orlesian help, but require it be limited. I get his concerns about Orlais trying to take over again once they got in, but if there's a small enough amount of them to not be too much of a problem wiping out when they get uppity, then hey, you get Orlesians dying against the Blight where your guys would have been, how is that not a win?
Old thread, so... Have you spared loghain at least once? He explains what does he feel about anything orlesian, it's beyond hate
he is just an idiot simple Explanation.Even after 30 jears he is still stuck in the ferelden-orlesian war.He just isnt able to see the darkspawn as something mutch worse than any orlesian occupation could ever be.
@@aledrone759 Old answer but yes, he talks about how some guys fought against peasseants, rape and do what they want without consequences. Beyond hate Indeed.
"Wait?, no!, I dint decided that, nobody decided that!...have they?"
Alistair: Best character ever
I was never able to get through the landsmeet without fighting...
I think after hearing Loghain speak for so long in this game only now did I realize he is none other but Kain from the LoK series. I feel ashamed for taking so long...
He is Kain it is the same voice actor you are right from Legacy of Kain
I wonder if Lo-Kain has the Reaver Specialization.
God, this is one of the most epic moments in the game. Regardless of whatever choices you made before it.
I may have been one of the few, but in my first playthrough I actually accepted Loghain into the Grey Wardens, just because I felt that getting stuck on the past won't get us anywhere, look at Loghain himself, he was stuck in the past with Orlais. We needed another Grey Warden, playing judge, politics and "who deserves what" wasn't something you'd have time for in such a crisis.
Now what I did not expect was that Alistair would barge out, it actually made me lose respect for him. I always felt that to be a true hero and Grey Warden, you gotta sacrifice yourself, your own feelings and judge things less in black and white to save the world. I didn't like Loghain, he deserved punishment for the other crimes he committed, but such an opinion had no space when the Ferelden and possibly the world was in great danger, and here stood one of the greatest generals and fighters the country had.
I felt Alistair acted rather selfish when he sought revenge and was rather narrow minded, without thinking beyond his and the Warden's personal experience. Alistair wanted revenge for Duncan, but imo I doubt even he would want his death to be avenged during a time when more needless deaths are unnecessary. It kinda kept me from putting Alistair on the throne in latter playthroughs, as I felt he acted rather selfish and biased while Anora, while manipulative, knew how to rule without being affected by her emotions. I ofcourse found out if you told Alistair to take more responsibility after meeting his sister, he becomes a rather good king and doesn't barge out if you keep Loghain alive.
This is what makes DAO amazing though, everything was so grey, no black or white, and being unbiased led to some very interesting choices which I feel not that many games do. Most games plays on the unbiased spectrum, but it's truly interesting to even put yourself into the Warden's shoes and let your emotions seep in, as not all "good" choices are truly good.
That’s because every character, including the PC can’t be put into a simple box. Is Alistair a careless man who would make a terrible monarch or would he rise to the occasion? Did Leliana really receive a vision from the Maker or did she make it up longing for the life she had before? Is Morrigan really looking to escape her mother’s shadow, or is Flemeth’s abuse something she can’t grow out of? Did Loghain really intend that his son-in-law and Duncan die, was he being truly objective when he thought Ostagar was a loss, could he have saved Cailan and then retreated?
So he stays a hero, even though he is a slaver, and killed people of Redcliffe, Highever, and the Circle which should've been directed to the efforts to win the Blight. Is a general clouded by hate more useful than a thousand people? One who actually actively hinders your effort to save Ferelden from the Blight?
@@budakbaongsiah. Totally agree with this.
I was always hoping during the duel Loghain would shout "Fey Victus"! Tribute to LOK series..
This went better than mine and I had Anora's support plus the slavery thing
5:23, always loved that speech from loghain. The voice acting was brilliant.
Landsmeet never fails to surprise me. Reached that quest today, finally, and started following your steps so my Warden could finally make things official with Alistair. I thought it was going to turn out just like in the video and suddenly Loghain simply got voted out of nowhere (even though I had the support of the Banns and rescued their relatives in Howe's dungeons), this shit was funny cause I wasn't expecting this outcome at all. All bloodsheds and betrayals after I got to that same ending you did anyway, except it had more... Adventure, I guess? Lmao
Makes one realize one single thing done wrong can change the Landsmeet outcomes
Man, Alister is one of the best, and most well written video game characters ever in my opinion.
if there was ever a game that needed a remaster, its origins
Yep.
The only other major I would like is to be able to have the entire party with me at all times.
"Going to storm the Castle. Oghren, Lil, Zev, Wynne, Shale you all sit this one out."
You actually managed to do the Landsmeet without much violence. My hats off to you dude.
"There are bodies still rotting in their homes. It is not a place I would send my worst enemy (except for Olais, teeheehee)."
I married Anora and screwed Alistair over.
I was still angry at him for dumping my character in my first playthrough.
Splendid Beaked Man Your loss.
Well the reason he dumps your non-noble Warden if his personality isn't hardened is because of morality...it wouldn't be 'honorable' for him to maintain a sexual relationship with the Warden if he's married to another woman...whether he hates Anora's guts or not. Hardening his personality allows him to be more 'selfish' and maintain his relationship with the Warden married or not.
For the duel, I was an Arcane Warrior/Blood Mage. With all passive support spells to increase my health, armor, dealt damage, and blood magic, Loghain was so ridiculously easy to defeat. Magic versus Brute Force, magic will win every time.
Then add the new Battlemage specialization & new spells in Awakening. W/ the Arcane Warrior/ Blood Mage/Battlemage build, you become nearly invincible with all the support spells that you have at your disposal!
8:10 That may be true Riordan however what about Warden Hunters? The very same people killing the only one's capable of ending a Blight? Even if they're a Warden themselves do you honestly expect to trust them enough for teamwork against the Blight? I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled another Ostagar move, everyone of my playthroughs I've killed him.
MatrixMiles17 Loghain is a true scumbag. On many levels. Always strange to see some people say to let him live. Bottom line, without him u always defeat the darkspawn, thus invalidating their argument. The way he deflects his evil is insufferable also.
And btw I am not convinced by his Arguments too.A General?Yes of Course!A General who let his troops against the wrong enemy for months.The darkspawn was already devastating the south while he fought and killed his own landsmen making it easyer for the darkspawn.And his skills in Fighting Arent very impresive to me.And the best reason I dont replace him with Alistair who was my friend and brother in arms from nearly the beginning.So even if I would ignore all hes done i never let him become a warden,
Oh and not to Mention thanks to him we have so few Wardens.Not only because of Ostagar but also because of his stupid move of closing the border and forbid anybody from Orlais including the Wardens to come to Ferelden.
Warden Hunters are included as part of the search for Grey Wardens. It doesn't matter who you are, if you have the skills, you are welcomed amongst the Wardens' ranks. Isn't that what Duncan believed when he recruited the Warden? Killing Loghain isn't what Duncan would've done...
There's strong argument to be made for however you view Loghain especially after playing dlc's. There is evidence that he is indeed a treacherous bastard that left the king to die in a bid to sieze power and there is plenty of evidence that suggests the battle was a lost cause and he only made his decision to spare the lives of his men from being slaughtered for nothing.
Hands down, the best outcome as a Female Warden in my opinion!
I just love the guy that fist pumps at the end of Arl Eamon's speech.
Everytime I killed logain, I always asked myself where the wood chipper was!
First play through the moment i heard erl howe speak i was like " oh hello tim curry" instantly knew who the villan was.
I wish Riordan had told them all a Warden needed to die in order for the blight to end....
I love when Anora is in the splash zone, so to speak LOL.
the warden has on one set of "The Phoenix Armory for Females" and Alistair has on the Warden runic armor (which is also available in black) they are all mods though so go find them on dragon age Nexus
I wanted to gut Riorden on the spot just for suggesting leaving Loghain alive.
The Dragon Age Books by David Gaider - leadwriter of Dragon Age Origins/II
1. The Stolen Throne
2. The Calling
3. Asunder
It is SO satisfying that, even with Anora speaking against the Warden, the nobles still denounce her like that.
Also that armor that your PC and Alistair are wearing is magnificent.
To my understanding, the option comes up for all 3 (human, elf and dwarf) but only the human will marry Alistair. The elf and dwarf instead become... an advisor of sorts, similar to how Loghain was to King Cailin.
I could be wrong, but I think that's how it works.
Anora betrayed me the two times I have beaten the game (even when we arranged a marriage with her and Alistair), and both times I won thanks to the Crows... It's so good to win lol
If you don't mention killing Loghain in the convo you have before with her she won't betray you. Even when after you kill him.
Wow those graphics mods you have r nice that armor on Allistar is amazing
it's kind of weird how alistair says anora can have the throne if he dies, even though THE WARDEN JUST BECAME HIS QUEEN! XD
+LightningSamus The Human Noble was formally the second highest ranking family behind royalty. The Couslands apparently were given the choice to be the royal family but they declined it. Even though they were marked as traitors and only two had survived, the Couslands may have still had a slight claim to the throne.
I have to say, that is the most gorgeous armor mod I've seen
Alistair looks alot better with cailan's look then before I say it rather suits him
I. Hate. The. Landsmeet. So. Much. But thank you for posting this. I just wish I knew of this earlier. TO be honest though, there's no way I'd let a slaver support me, just or wrong.
@NBluth Nope. He always sides with Loghain, just like Bryland (Arl of South Reach) always sides with the Warden.
What did you do to Alistair? He looks like a blonde version of the warden you find in the dungeons
In my latest playthrough I had all of the nobles' support even when Anora had betrayed me and I still lost... I was hoping that I could see her humiliated...
The acting in this game is marvelous compared to games now.
@NeaTheWhiteWolf
That's because the Landsmeet doesn't actually work on a majority vote, a decision of the game designers so you wouldn't win the Landsmeet TOO easily.
Instead, there's a "score," and points are added to your score if you present good arguments and/or win a noble to your side; points are subtracted for votes against you.
You have to have a score of at least 5 in order to win the Landsmeet, AFTER all the additions and subtractions.
Check the Wikia article.
@sefsup05
To add to what EliteGamerAlliance told you; as he said that noble votes for you if you do all the assignments under Trial of the Crows.
But the specific "personal matter" he references is that you indirectly helped rescue his son. His son was kidnapped by Captain Chase, Arl Howe's minion, and held for ransom. Chase breaks his word and the boy isn't there when you fight him, but your fight provides a distraction for the Crows to rescue the boy for real.
At least Logain died like a man
No he didnt.He gave up and was executed instead of fighting til the end.But what can be expected from someone who didnt even had the balls to stand clear for what he did in Ostagar.His only Explanation for the kings death was that the Grey Wardens betrayed him and thats why he died beside them.Blaming someone who cant defend himself is just pathetic.And than the Change in the landsmeet wher suddenly the Wardens didnt kill Cailan but only failed to avoid his death by failing to defeat an entire army of Darkspawn with only a dozend or so fighters.Thats not how a man reacts.
After meeting Goldanna, you can tell Alistair that everyone looks out for only him/herself. He questions you later at camp, but if you repeat that advice, he becomes "hardened."
If you let Loghain become a Grey Warden, hardened Alistair will actually become king instead of running away.
If married to Anora, the epilogue says he spends lots of time at court learning from her, and that Ferelden was grateful for the Blight because it gave them two much beloved and capable rulers.
Loghain: "Aaaaggghhh! Here we have the puppeteer!"
Look at it this way; she can have her cake (the throne) but she cant eat it too (her father) unless you are aiming to be king in which case you have to give her what she wants.
I had literally everyone supporting me, but the crowd of unimportant citizens said Loghain so I guess he won.
I Always thought that were the bannorn.All this small Lords in Central Ferelden together they have more Voices than all the others combined.
Loghain is great in the books, but in the game I somehow... don't want him to survive the landsmeet. I hate that.. I love them both
"Shut up and put on the damn crown." LMAO
The thing that pisses me off is that Anora is a fucking karma Houdini. She can backstab you twice, side with her father who tried to have her killed, slander the Wardens (the only people who can save the world) in order to get the crown and her worst ending is going to a gilded cage.
Wish there was a better choice to get a better king or queen but it is what it is
The dog, pick the dog hahaha!!
That would be funny if arl eamon actually let's the dog fight
oh look at that 13 thumbs down logian supporters dont like the results
Wow, someone had a bit of an attitude there judging by those last few words.
I have also spared Loghain and had him make the ultimate sacrifice and it was actually a really neat way to have him redeem himself, but when I made that comment I was talking hypothetically about how, if he kills all the Wardens or banishes them, how he would kill the Archdemon.
Im so confused rn because i SWEAR i told Anora that I had her back then the landsmeet comes and she switches up on me! I hate her guts rn tbh
@kiriko0 That would be from the Grey Warden Runic Armor set. It's on the Nexus, just search for "warden runic armor" and it should be the only one that comes up.
You need to have a certain friendship level with him. If it's below that, he'll betray you.
So is Loghain. And Zevran. And Morrigan. And Leliana. And Oghren.
AND PRETTY MUCH EVERY CHARACTER IN DRAGON AGE ORIGINS
5:15 Everyone: Who the hell are you?!
I love the armor. Great video
I think my game is glitched because everyone sides with me besides the old man yet it says I lost the debate
5:27 This is my favorite quote from any game.
I often use it in my everyday life to express feelings of extreme betrayal.
@thomas brady But did he or did he not stand against the orlesian emperor when his troops flatten our fields and raped our wives?
That? A childish, selfish retort belittling everyone as if he was the only one who cut down the entire Orlesian army?
*Loghain gives the most epic speech ever* Gay Voice: The Warden, I'm with the Warden
I think this was epic, thank you for posting this!!!