A great explanation. I saw Werther as being stuck in a teenage angst of melancholy and self pity. "A Girl Interrupted" has a similar theme and she recovers after the asylum nurse tells her she can stay mad or decide to step away from herself and live in reality.
First of all, your cat is so beautiful! I never noticed that you had one until now. The dark undertones one can find in all of Goethe's works are not difficult to find in other germanophone authors and I don't think it's a coincidence. I think we cannot hardly imagine how influential the book was in an era when new ideals could not be spread with songs or movies but with books only.
Thank you, that's Daphne! She's a sweetheart. Yeah I should have mentioned something about this book's popularity. Apparently Werther was idolized and Goethe was dumbfounded but the public's reaction. Warm regards,
the book works the theme of individual perfection of each one, at first werther understands that everything around him is good as in a dream, he has an optimistic view of life, revealing small wounds or existential problems, he sees the beauty in simple life, for children and lovers alike, but this perfection that so inspires him turns against him when it is felt internally by him, as the feeling proves stronger than the logical limitations of the world, is a brilliant work, since it shows that sentimental perfection is different or even contradicts mechanical or rational perfection, and it is a tragedy not to be able to live what you feel...
I've read this novel several times in my life, the first time as a teenager. It's never made me uncomfortable, partly because I think Goethe quite intentionally aestheticizes mental illness. He puts a lot of trust in his readers, and seems confident that they'll see Werther precisely as an example of what not to be. All that being said, the transition from Homer to Ossian is brilliant. I've read Ossian but it doesn't quite have the same appeal without Werther's context. The idea of Ossian's doomed Celtic warriors as a reflection of a modern, self-destruction imagination is quite skillfully done and in the end quite beautiful.
Yes, I member this book from school. We studied it from psychological point of view as a mass hysteria. After the book was published, young people in Germany at that time started committing suicides massively. Goethe had to write an explanatory article in some newspapers. Thank you,Matthew, for your very exquisite literary choice.
@@MayberryBookclub yes, you are right. This kind of hysteria is less about the book but just about the timing in a human society. That's why we cannot understand it today...
I first read this when I was 20 and a single man. I feel like I had a lot of issues with communication and being destructive at times without realizing it at that point in my life. I suspect re-reading this now would open up some new interpretations. The tragic tale that Goerthe seems to be drawn to reminds me a lot of old Greek/Shakespearean structures. Such an influential author. Have you read much else by him?
It's interesting how this book is viewed depending on your age, I don't think I will be returning to this one when I'm older. Faust is probably my favorite thing I've read of his, but I'll have to read it again. Best regards,
When Goethe published this book in the 18th century people became obsessed with it, completely. The character Werther almost became a hero, he was adored and idealized by the public, the women went crazy for him as he was Brad Pitt, and men idealized his virtue and self-sacrifice. Goethe was basically like "wtf people, you're all out of your minds?". Anyway, I only came to know this things about the book later in my adulthood. The first time I read this book I was a teenager, and I felt exactly like the people at the time felt for Werther (but that i didn't know yet). Later when i reread the book as a adult, I got a completely different experience, similar to the one you had. It is quite impressive how Werther is so sensitive to age, and it tells us more about ourselves then about the character. I did met people who also read it as a teen and they felt the same admiration and idealization as I did, and now as a adult despises the character as I do. I also came to know current teenagers who just read the book and felt the same as i did my teenage years. For me that is the most interesting phenomena concerning this book.
Matthew, I shared many of your impressions when I read this in my early 20s. Despite Goethe only giving us insight into Werther’s point of view I could generate little sympathy or empathy because he seemed so unpleasant and self-absorbed. 10 years on, the attitudes seem even worse, and the dark, claustrophobic sense you describe makes me even more reticent to ever return to it. I read Faust Pt. I around then same time and thought it was a powerful text, and I love the silent FW Murnau adaptation. I tried reading Elective Affinities but never finished it. Years later, I read Faust Pt. II and the Italian Journey and really enjoyed them. They showed a humor absent from his novels.
I read this in high school, and the only thing I remember is how long it took me to finish it, oh boy it's boring! haha I was so impressed with Faust that I find it hard to believe it was written by the same author
I also found this difficult to get through, not because it was boring, but just that the subject matter was different. In any event, I was glad that it's such a short book! Best regards,
@@MayberryBookclub Have you tried my Fairy Tale of the Green Snake and the Beautiful Lily of 1795, already? Concerning Werther, I'm thankful to you for summarizing and characterizing it in a way that enables me to dimly recollect what I must have read as a pupil. Your barely nine minutes have taught me more about the book's content and psychology than I had ever realized, at least within my current life. Given that Goethe must have been a reincarnation of Julius Caesar, Charlemagne, Giotto, Masaccio, Botticelli, Rubens, and Watteau (which you can infer from all sorts of measurements) you can assume that such a novel mainly will have been aiming at an _erotic_ interest. You certainly are dealing with a homage to the masochist pleasures of jealousy, the name of the husband of the adored woman playing a central role in how such feelings are conjured up. Goethe's relations to Anna Katharina Sch[oe]nkopf, as mirrored in his letters to Behrisch, and also his adoration of Charlotte Buff, as mirrored in letters by him to the latter and her bridegroom, will support you in an identification of such traits. Both Goethe, himself - in letters to his wife Christiane -, and his reincarnation Gerhart Hauptmann - in a confession to Ida Orloff - can be observed as developing tendencies of a clearly erotic and masochist nature, even during much later phases of their lives. In one of his letters to Charlotte's bridegroom, the poet goes as far as explicitly referring to how the addressee would "lie down to [his] wife". Constantly imagining such a scene, and such a longing, on reading Werther, you'll get a sense of how Goethe in the book translates paintings of sparsely clad females by Rubens (compare ua-cam.com/video/PDlX-PyQAks/v-deo.html , for example) into language.
Hi my friend, sorry to be so long getting back to you but sometimes life just gets in the way LOL! I have something I want to share with you. When your discussion of "Sorrows of Young Werther" came up on the right of my screen there was another recommendation for the same book by Infinite Text. I was not a subscriber to her channel but I am now. She reviewed this story also and came at it from an entirely different point of view. Plus she talked a great deal about the history of the book. I did not know that it was banned for awhile, and that it was barred from reading in some schools. This is so worth your reading, that if you haven't done so, please seek it out. Would love to hear your comments after you hear hers.
Thank you for the recommendation! I haven't seen her channel before now. I just watched her review of Werther and really enjoyed her discussion. She examined the text from many different perspectives, and it's clear that she studied the work. My favorite take away is her emphasis that Werther is an accessable work. So often I've found the 'great works of literature' presented in a way that makes them seem impossibly difficult. And so often for me, I've found authors much more inviting than they are portrayed. I just like how she discussed the book in that way, it's a positive message. It took me a while to realize that almost all authors write for their work to be enjoyed, not for the purpose of being hard to read. It's a moment that I think most young readers discover at some point, and she discussed that point really well with Goethe. Thank you again! Hope you're well, take care
Late to comment, but I just found your channel. Never could get through Werther, but there is a modern book that depicts this almost sick vein of German romanticism: The Blue Flower, by Penelope Fitzgerald. It is a splendid experience to read, but it makes you glad not to have lived in that time and society. One might also read the Italian poet Leopardi, whose work somehow gets you beyond the fatalistic pessimism of the Germans.
Is the reader meant to feel like the recipient of the letters? Without return letters, I feel as though that would be the necessary frame of interpretation. Either I would have to assume that I am the recipient, (which would potentially be itself very difficult, if, the one writing these letters feels psychotic, solipsistic, etc), or, that I am simply to have to infer what the recipient was saying back, and when, myself (I've never read the book.)
At the beginning of the book, Wilhelm, the friend Werther writes to, publishes the letters and adresses the readers. (Wilhelm is just a fictive character of course)
Goethe and I don't get along. I found this nauseating to read in the most uninteresting way. Werther is self absorbed and delusional from the start without a redeeming quality. If anything, I thought the book showed the insanity of being obsessed with becoming the 'hero' of a 'romance.' Thanks for the discussion Matthew!
That a great way to put it, being obsessed with becoming the hero of a romance. I won't be returning to this book, overall an unpleasant reading experience without a payoff.
A great explanation. I saw Werther as being stuck in a teenage angst of melancholy and self pity. "A Girl Interrupted" has a similar theme and she recovers after the asylum nurse tells her she can stay mad or decide to step away from herself and live in reality.
First of all, your cat is so beautiful! I never noticed that you had one until now.
The dark undertones one can find in all of Goethe's works are not difficult to find in other germanophone authors and I don't think it's a coincidence.
I think we cannot hardly imagine how influential the book was in an era when new ideals could not be spread with songs or movies but with books only.
Thank you, that's Daphne! She's a sweetheart.
Yeah I should have mentioned something about this book's popularity. Apparently Werther was idolized and Goethe was dumbfounded but the public's reaction. Warm regards,
the book works the theme of individual perfection of each one, at first werther understands that everything around him is good as in a dream, he has an optimistic view of life, revealing small wounds or existential problems, he sees the beauty in simple life, for children and lovers alike, but this perfection that so inspires him turns against him when it is felt internally by him, as the feeling proves stronger than the logical limitations of the world, is a brilliant work, since it shows that sentimental perfection is different or even contradicts mechanical or rational perfection, and it is a tragedy not to be able to live what you feel...
I've read this novel several times in my life, the first time as a teenager. It's never made me uncomfortable, partly because I think Goethe quite intentionally aestheticizes mental illness. He puts a lot of trust in his readers, and seems confident that they'll see Werther precisely as an example of what not to be. All that being said, the transition from Homer to Ossian is brilliant. I've read Ossian but it doesn't quite have the same appeal without Werther's context. The idea of Ossian's doomed Celtic warriors as a reflection of a modern, self-destruction imagination is quite skillfully done and in the end quite beautiful.
Yes, I member this book from school. We studied it from psychological point of view as a mass hysteria. After the book was published, young people in Germany at that time started committing suicides massively. Goethe had to write an explanatory article in some newspapers. Thank you,Matthew, for your very exquisite literary choice.
That sounds like it would have been a really interesting class!
@@MayberryBookclub yes, you are right. This kind of hysteria is less about the book but just about the timing in a human society. That's why we cannot understand it today...
I first read this when I was 20 and a single man. I feel like I had a lot of issues with communication and being destructive at times without realizing it at that point in my life. I suspect re-reading this now would open up some new interpretations. The tragic tale that Goerthe seems to be drawn to reminds me a lot of old Greek/Shakespearean structures. Such an influential author. Have you read much else by him?
It's interesting how this book is viewed depending on your age, I don't think I will be returning to this one when I'm older.
Faust is probably my favorite thing I've read of his, but I'll have to read it again.
Best regards,
When Goethe published this book in the 18th century people became obsessed with it, completely. The character Werther almost became a hero, he was adored and idealized by the public, the women went crazy for him as he was Brad Pitt, and men idealized his virtue and self-sacrifice. Goethe was basically like "wtf people, you're all out of your minds?". Anyway, I only came to know this things about the book later in my adulthood. The first time I read this book I was a teenager, and I felt exactly like the people at the time felt for Werther (but that i didn't know yet). Later when i reread the book as a adult, I got a completely different experience, similar to the one you had. It is quite impressive how Werther is so sensitive to age, and it tells us more about ourselves then about the character. I did met people who also read it as a teen and they felt the same admiration and idealization as I did, and now as a adult despises the character as I do. I also came to know current teenagers who just read the book and felt the same as i did my teenage years. For me that is the most interesting phenomena concerning this book.
Wow, that's really interesting, I knew that it was hugely popular but I didn't know he was a heartthrob!
Matthew, I shared many of your impressions when I read this in my early 20s. Despite Goethe only giving us insight into Werther’s point of view I could generate little sympathy or empathy because he seemed so unpleasant and self-absorbed. 10 years on, the attitudes seem even worse, and the dark, claustrophobic sense you describe makes me even more reticent to ever return to it.
I read Faust Pt. I around then same time and thought it was a powerful text, and I love the silent FW Murnau adaptation. I tried reading Elective Affinities but never finished it. Years later, I read Faust Pt. II and the Italian Journey and really enjoyed them. They showed a humor absent from his novels.
This is not a book I will be returning to, I've read some of his other works to varying degrees of appreciation, but nothing hugely enjoyable so far.
Interesting
I read this in high school, and the only thing I remember is how long it took me to finish it, oh boy it's boring! haha I was so impressed with Faust that I find it hard to believe it was written by the same author
I also found this difficult to get through, not because it was boring, but just that the subject matter was different. In any event, I was glad that it's such a short book! Best regards,
@@MayberryBookclub Have you tried my Fairy Tale of the Green Snake and the Beautiful Lily of 1795, already?
Concerning Werther, I'm thankful to you for summarizing and characterizing it in a way that enables me to dimly recollect what I must have read as a pupil. Your barely nine minutes have taught me more about the book's content and psychology than I had ever realized, at least within my current life.
Given that Goethe must have been a reincarnation of Julius Caesar, Charlemagne, Giotto, Masaccio, Botticelli, Rubens, and Watteau (which you can infer from all sorts of measurements) you can assume that such a novel mainly will have been aiming at an _erotic_ interest. You certainly are dealing with a homage to the masochist pleasures of jealousy, the name of the husband of the adored woman playing a central role in how such feelings are conjured up. Goethe's relations to Anna Katharina Sch[oe]nkopf, as mirrored in his letters to Behrisch, and also his adoration of Charlotte Buff, as mirrored in letters by him to the latter and her bridegroom, will support you in an identification of such traits. Both Goethe, himself - in letters to his wife Christiane -, and his reincarnation Gerhart Hauptmann - in a confession to Ida Orloff - can be observed as developing tendencies of a clearly erotic and masochist nature, even during much later phases of their lives. In one of his letters to Charlotte's bridegroom, the poet goes as far as explicitly referring to how the addressee would "lie down to [his] wife". Constantly imagining such a scene, and such a longing, on reading Werther, you'll get a sense of how Goethe in the book translates paintings of sparsely clad females by Rubens (compare ua-cam.com/video/PDlX-PyQAks/v-deo.html , for example) into language.
Hi my friend, sorry to be so long getting back to you but sometimes life just gets in the way LOL! I have something I want to share with you. When your discussion of "Sorrows of Young Werther" came up on the right of my screen there was another recommendation for the same book by Infinite Text. I was not a subscriber to her channel but I am now. She reviewed this story also and came at it from an entirely different point of view. Plus she talked a great deal about the history of the book. I did not know that it was banned for awhile, and that it was barred from reading in some schools. This is so worth your reading, that if you haven't done so, please seek it out. Would love to hear your comments after you hear hers.
Thank you for the recommendation! I haven't seen her channel before now. I just watched her review of Werther and really enjoyed her discussion. She examined the text from many different perspectives, and it's clear that she studied the work. My favorite take away is her emphasis that Werther is an accessable work. So often I've found the 'great works of literature' presented in a way that makes them seem impossibly difficult. And so often for me, I've found authors much more inviting than they are portrayed.
I just like how she discussed the book in that way, it's a positive message. It took me a while to realize that almost all authors write for their work to be enjoyed, not for the purpose of being hard to read. It's a moment that I think most young readers discover at some point, and she discussed that point really well with Goethe.
Thank you again! Hope you're well, take care
Any other recommendations similar to this book?
Late to comment, but I just found your channel. Never could get through Werther, but there is a modern book that depicts this almost sick vein of German romanticism: The Blue Flower, by Penelope Fitzgerald. It is a splendid experience to read, but it makes you glad not to have lived in that time and society. One might also read the Italian poet Leopardi, whose work somehow gets you beyond the fatalistic pessimism of the Germans.
I've heard of Penelope Fitzgerald but I haven't read anything by her, thank you for the suggestion!
Is the reader meant to feel like the recipient of the letters? Without return letters, I feel as though that would be the necessary frame of interpretation. Either I would have to assume that I am the recipient, (which would potentially be itself very difficult, if, the one writing these letters feels psychotic, solipsistic, etc), or, that I am simply to have to infer what the recipient was saying back, and when, myself
(I've never read the book.)
At the beginning of the book, Wilhelm, the friend Werther writes to, publishes the letters and adresses the readers. (Wilhelm is just a fictive character of course)
Goethe and I don't get along. I found this nauseating to read in the most uninteresting way. Werther is self absorbed and delusional from the start without a redeeming quality. If anything, I thought the book showed the insanity of being obsessed with becoming the 'hero' of a 'romance.' Thanks for the discussion Matthew!
That a great way to put it, being obsessed with becoming the hero of a romance. I won't be returning to this book, overall an unpleasant reading experience without a payoff.
didn't like werther, loved the book. :)
Oh no one knows how to take things seriously here.