I didn't actually know this! Thanks for sharing! Right now though the Jungle role is weaker compared to what it used to be actually because of repeated nerfs to ganking and the new jungle changes. It's not uncommon for a jungler to have a bit more XP than their own botlaner at certain points. That says a lot because the role is still quite powerful.
@@PlebCentre Almost like I said "typically". Not sure what you are trying to accomplish by telling me SOME very carry focused junglers take more ressources from the team to keep up in level. Thats per definition atypical.
I've got 1000+ hours in Dota (Pos 4&5) and started playing league recently. These videos have really helped me understand the nuance between the two games and have been a great introduction to League's playstyle. This has effectively replaced that one friend who introduces you to the game initially and tells you all about it, so I'm really thankful. Something this video alludes to, which is also my biggest gripe with league, is that LoL has 4 core roles & 1 support. The lane setup of 1/1/1/2 means League feels less like a team game and more like 4 separate battles that are happening on the same map. I think this is why League is considered the more toxic game of the two as well as individual performance is more important, and losing the game because of someone else's actions feels worse than losing as a team. A lack of TP scrolls or other movement skills means that Jungle is left with the burden of 'Teamwork', as they are the only role that can move around the map and help teammates while not sacrificing farm. I am currently just playing support and want to learn Jungling, but the pressure to perform is making the idea imposing. That being said i'm loving the vids and i'm excited to see what you make next.
If you want to learn Jungle, just pick JG and get in there--and then mute the team. The Jungler, as a role, needs to trust in their own shotcalling skills and decision making. One of the best pieces of advice given to me as a Jungler is to generally avoid ganking losing lanes. If your laner is losing lane without you, it's usually skill issue on their part, and they're not gonna carry you to a victory. Find a win condition, camp their lane, contest objectives, and you'll be fine! Don't let pressure stop you from playing this incredibly fun, yet definitely hated on, role. And I'm glad you like the video!
thats primarilly in low elo, a good midlaner will push wave a gank (usually bot, because bot matters more), a top laner can go bot after pushing wave (this is mainly champs in top with globals) and will gank mid when ahead, top lane is much more of a 1v1 lane tho, with a lot of split pushers, so while this is common its also rare for top to rotate for anything other then securing objectives(once again I emphasize high elo). a support in high elo will gank mid a lot, or help the jungle invade, even going to secure objectives, support is probably the second most free role in the game, as if the adc is dead they are wasting their time in the bot lane, and they are only linked to the lane by the adc, who is very vulnerable without them in most cases, but they don't cs beyond item cs transfer, and while they do need xp, most can function with less of it. the one you directly interact with most besides jungle will be your lane opponent, that's true, but making plays all over the map isn't exclusive to just jungle, its just the jungle has no pre requisites to do it(besides camps, but they are doing those on the way to make a play)
I would say with jungle the key is to get used to sticking to your gameplan and not stressing when you are getting blamed. It is quite hard when beginning to understand that even if you have had 0 impact, you are not to blame for everything. A lot of laners will target you when they themselves were the reason for the state of the game or their lane and it doesn't reduce the higher you climb. A big part of jungle is resilience so if you do take it up be ready to train your mind and trust yourself
LoL junglers are a wildcard in a game where lanes a very structured, and most players queue with a gameplan already in mind Dota pos 4s are also wildcards, but the entire game is based around disruption, individual gamechanging spells, and shiftings plans on the go
Dota is more about outsmarting or outpacing enemy. League is more about outskill. Jungle is more impactful when you are outskill, when you are outsmarting you take gank in accountant
Idc about what kind of plan you are talking. Laners have shitty habit to counterpick themselves just bc they want to play melee ad champ no matter what and run the game down when their idiocy got punished by enemy. If it is the plan, than I agree, lanes are very structured and lane players are always have a plan.
"most laners queue with a gameplan already in mind" lol, lmao that is so stupidly untrue I cannot believe someone wrote it and 120 people agree if you're not adapting to what everyone else is doing you're a loser, it's a core part of the game junglers are not "wildcards", if you think they are it means you're not playing around your jungler and not tracking the enemy the Dunning-Kruger effect in the League community needs to be studied, this is insane
Sit in the trees and miss all hooks. He gets so behind that PA will intentionally get hooked and 1shot pudge who only has boots and blink dagger 0 armor 12 mins in the game.
Pos 4 player are the type of people who just "lives for the moments" when they hit a 5 man echo,rp,or black hole they get a dopamine rush and just wants the next chase. The satisfaction of a perfect AA blast, the just in time venge swaps. The perfect shallow graves and 5 man golems into fatal bonds. They don't care if they're winning or losing. As long as they fulfilled what they set up to they are happy.
For me its watching my pos 3 grow up big and strong, and letting him live his life as I let his hand go to have some of my own impact in the map. That and also the sadism of making enemy pos 1 irrelevant and deleting them every couple minutes 😬
I love the concept of Dota's ward wars. Supports have a simpler version of that concept too when you contest pink wards and go ward deep in jungle when enemies can't punish you. It's one of my favourite things to do as a support main.
As someone who plays DOTA consistently (immortal) and league semi-frequently (plat 2), I appreciate how concise and easy to understand you make all of these videos regardless of experience! Definitely one of the better MOBA content creators.
Oh we did have junglers in dota a wayy back ago... Iron Talon Legion Commander 10 min afk jungle until she gets blink and only then comes out of it to duel on cooldown then continues farming, or even worse midas rush lifestealer/wk which will legit stay in the jungle until they get 10k networth or the enemy team are pushing their barracks by 25 min. These memories are nightmare fuel... I do miss them, however 😵💫
Why is this nightmare fuel? LC dueling on cd and farming while its down seems like an impactful way to play LC. What's wrong with playing around LC's power spike?
@@SuperGGnoREbcos this playstyle for LC necessitates her to snowball through getting as many bonus duel damage as possible, which can work with core LC but it's a harder to pull off for jungler LC bcos she would need more items for this kind of playstyle to succeed in late game, which may become a problem in terms of gold distribution as now you basically have 2 carries on your team another problem is actually similar to how jungler in LoL is hated, as pub jungler LC (or any jungler in pubs really) just sux at reading the map and making plays, they ended up just kept farming for way too long
@@SuperGGnoRE 1. A jungler entirely skips laning, which in turn ruins the offlane, making it 1v2. 2. Main carry (pos 1) can't retreat to the jungle in case of a bad lane, or even when a lane is won but he wants to continue farming, because the map was much smaller back then, and didn't have enough space for 2 heroes powerfarming. 3. From said above, in case of any lane being (inevitably) lost, your team wouldnt have any team fighting capability at early clashes, because the jungler can't usually effectively farm since level 1 and jungle creeps give less exp than lane creeps, meaning he will hit lv 6 later than everyone (maybe except another roaming pos4) AND the main carry/offlane/mid can't farm already occupied jungle, meaning the team with a jungler only stands a chance of winning if by pure luck, all lanes are won or in case of lost lanes, game goes farther than 45+ minutes, where team with a jungler has an edge by having 4 carries + 1 support versus usual 3 + 2. P.S. Also, I forgot mentioning this, if a jungler is played versus a Zeus/Bloodseeker or any roaming supports like bounty hunter or Riki pos4, it's either a game over if you still decide to jungle OR you are forced to double offlane, still making your character useless (with some exceptions). To the LC jungle question, I actually had no problem and even played her myself like that on occasion, it's more about the players misunderstanding the concept of the jungler back then. You could make use of LC jungle, but you had to play in a different way from just afk jungle. 1. Never pick a jungler into a greedy pick. Imagine sharing the farm with a mid sf and an antimage. 2. After hitting lv6, leave jungle priority to pos1, pos2. Either farm enemy part of jungle (near offlane) or the farthest possible camps from where mid or carry will farm. 3. Farm until a powerspike. Get your blink and go ganking nonstop. Never stay in the jungle longer than 15 minutes, that is an obvious way to lose a game. Pick jungle only if the offlaner is strong enough where he can break even 1v2 or can solo lane. 4. Have great map awareness and effective jungle pathing. You have to constantly check the map in case someone is being towerdived, to TP in and help while simultaneously farming the jungle most efficiently. The faster you are out of the jungle, the lesser chance of losing the early game. Does this remind you of something? That's a simplified current pos 4 gameplay idea without early lane presence. Which could be sometimes good, since sometimes a strong offlaner could possibly gain more exp through solo laning, but that was very, very rare, and the polar opposite much more common. Playing this way makes sense but is risky. Seemingly, more than half of the players trying to jungle back then thought that picking jungle is equal to picking a main carry, and it's the laners job to help them stall the game until they can carry, which led them to afk jungle farming (with no idea of how to actually farm jungle effectively or any map awareness) which led to lost games. Hopefully I answered your question.
Iron Talon LC definitely wasn't the only (or even the biggest) Dota jungler. Chen, Enchantress, Enigma, and Batrider were all primary junglers at one point. The first 2 were essentially part of the safe trilane and would be ganking regularly, and the other 2 were aiming for 6-7 blink daggers to start making plays. There were also a bunch of carry junglers, which did include LC and Naix (Lifestealer) but also Nature's Prophet, Necrophos/lyte, Terrorblade, Lone Druid, Lycan, and probably some other irregulars. In the case of carry junglers, in any sensible draft they just were the pos1 and the person farming the safelane was an early/mid-game carry who was looking to make space and take towers while the jungler afk farmed. You'd see people like Bristleback, Juggernaut, Kunkka, Necrophos/lyte (with Mek+Arc boots rush), MoM sniper, etc farming for a first mid-priced item and then taking all the T1 towers to open up space. Jungling used to be a legit part of Dota and it was absolutely more than just LC cheese.
@@tehDaiquiri welll... it used to be in many ocassions 1v3 lane for offlaner; skipping lane for woods was not bad idea. Offlaners were used to be semi supports back in the days (you pick something with big impact w/o much early gold requirements, tanky if possible since it have to survive at least some plays). tbh I miss days of solo offlane 'yea, I am 0/6, I think my laning went quite well'. Junglers were basically pos 2/3 (depend on midlaner) while off was rather 4 (-global presence; I am talking about resource distribution which is base for numerical position in doto). So you had your LC, Furions, Bloodcyka, Lycans and others (passive necro killing ancients by power of smelly aura, my beloved)- most of old junglers were not pos4. They were early carries (pos1 was pretty much always lategame carry like morph, AM, phantom cancer; someone had to carry through midgame).
Immortal pos 4 again. Some things I would add to this video: 1. In your pos 4 viability checklist (23:15), the most important thing for me is your hero's synergy with your pos 2 and (to a lesser extent) pos 5. This is because these are usually* your midgame playmakers. Pos 1 needs to farm and pos 3 needs to make space (+build teamfight items), so 2/4/5 are usually the ones grouping up to smoke for picks. Also, most pos 3 heroes are able to 1v2 in lane (or creepdrag), and even if they lose you can always shut down the enemy carry with a gank; But if your mid loses badly, there isn't really anybody in the game who can shut down the enemy mid even if your offlane wins. So it's more important to have good synergy with mid, even if it hurts your lane partner. This brings me to my next point: 2. In your section on timings (5:38), rotating for the 6 minute (and 8 minute) power rune is probably THE SINGLE most important timing to hit as a pos 4. Getting a "good rune" (damage, arcane, haste) can basically guarantee a successful gank if a mid player gets it. If both mids buy bottle, it becomes even more pivotal since they can save the rune to turn a key fight. These are so important that sometimes pos 5s will rotate as well, and the resulting 3v3 fights can be game deciding. This is another reason 2/4/5 synergy is so important. I know this video was about how "everyone loves pos 4" but when I see a pos 4 getting flamed this is usually why. 3. One of the biggest factor in pos 4 viability is the ability to easily make stacks, and help your team clear them early. From the offlane, you have the easiest access to the triangle, which are the best camps to stack in the game since they are easy to defend and only place you can stack a hard camp + ancient camp at the same time. If you have a hero who loves stacks like Luna, Bristle, Sven or TA, then it is often worth it to leave lane every single minute to stack triangle, and this is why these heroes are often picked alongside stacking pos 4s like Shadow Demon, Batrider, Rubick, or Hoodwink. Also, as long as you remember to go early for wisdom rune, you basically get a "free stack" at 7 minutes on the side ancient camp since you should be going there anyways. 4. The last big factor in pos 4 viability is teamfight initiation and/or backline jump. In most fights, it is usually too risky for your pos 2/3 to go initiate first without vision, and they can't just completely abandon the 1/5 to chase the enemy backliners. In mid-game teamfights, it is basically your job to throw your body into the enemy team to get vision, cause chaos, and force key targets out of position. Out of the 15 most played pos 4s in high MMR pubs right now (dota2protracker.com/), I'd say 11/15 are chosen mainly for their ability to help initiate fights and disrupt backliners (Tiny, NP, Bounty, Techies, Nyx, Pudge, Bane, Tusk, Earthshaker, Bat, and SB) with the rest being stacking heroes (Hood, Rubick, SD, Willow).
Ah I was waiting for this! Thanks again for the insights! Hopefully people who want to get better at the role, or want to try this role out, get to see this comment
Im currently trying to get better from trashlow and have found that one of the most powerful things you can do in low ranks is just go in first to tank the cc and let your carry carry, if I have something like euls and greaves Im prob gonna live a half hearted engage as a 5 and due to the fact Im playing gready 5s my teamfight impact isnt the biggest. (Mainly talking about gyro here but also phoenix works as well)
@@samueljames8654 Yes, there is definitely times as a support where you need to die in order to bait out important spells. But there's a fine line between baiting and feeding-and better players will know not to waste their big cooldowns on a pos 5. Remember, if your strategy relies on your oponents misplaying then it will never get you out of low elo since it only works on bad players. In 90% of games you're probably better off playing a less greedy support and letting your offlane tank instead. If your carry is getting CC'd, try building saves like glimmer, lotus orb or force staff. If you really want to play a suicide playstyle, maybe try playing someone more suited to diving like Tiny, Earthshaker or Spirit Breaker.
@@jackmccarthy7644 I think part of it is that people at the rank don't respect the space you can stand in, so they will go on you more in odd places more than when they actually understand the game. I think generally the places I stand are still good in better games it's more that they won't go on me so I'll get said saves off on allies instead of using them on myself
The term Jungler for dota is kinda outdated. There was a time where there's actual jungling option for pos4 with certain hero, but both Valve and the community figured out it was lacking impact. The common terms for pos 4 are Roamer now. I do agree that both Jungler and Roamer are expected to create impact through rotations, but where it differs is that Junglers in LoL have dedicated jungle, and the heavy role of smiting objectives, therefore creating even bigger expectations to fulfill since they can get their own gold. In Dota, pos 4 don't farm as much as cores (depending on the hero) but can already create noticeable impact simply by rotating or map control. Even when playing from behind, you can't really blame pos 4 since they are not the one farming. If i had to express it, Junglers in LoL is in a race against each other, while Roamers in Dota is in a match of creativity and clever plays
@@raflyarafat4882 I was that pos4 jungler, cliffjungling in radiant triangle with Storm Spirit or Necrolyte by abusing the freshly added gg branch active. Man, I miss those days...
Well said! I very much agree with how the Jungler is in a race against their role opponent. Though I still prefer the term "Playmaking Support" because true roamers are a lost art form because there's just too much resource in lane that you're giving up and it's a risky playstyle that may not pay off, especially when staying in lane means protecting your 3, helping to secure ranged creeps, and getting extra money from the Flagbearer. That being said though, Roaming Mirana and Earth Spirit will always be a part of Dota's history.
once upon a time, before void grubs, i queued up for a normal game, and got auto-filled into jungle. i picked sejuani because she's basically the only jungler i consistently do decent/well on. Eventually i ganked bot, got the enemy adc's flash (maybe some more summs, idr), and told my bot "i'm gonna go get my buffs and then come back for a gank, if you could let them push and freeze the wave in front of your tower for me, that'd be cool" and i did just that. I'm pretty sure my bot accidentally reset the wave right before i ganked, but our adc got a double kill off that gank none the less. After the gank, we grabbed dragon (with mid lane coming down to join us), and we got it uncontested. After dragon i followed the midlaner up to their lane because the enemy mid was very greedily at our tower. I had to stop auto attacking the enemy and try to body block them in order to give the kill to our mid laner, but the mid laner did get the kill. After that, i went to the enemies bot side to see if the enemy jungler had gotten their red since i took my top side red, and luckily for me it was up, so i tried to take it as sneakily as possible in case shaco came for it. In that roughly minute or two of gameplay i secured 3 kills for our carries, got us a dragon, and put some semblance of control over 3/4ths of the map. Needless to say, we won that game. And in the end game chat, my kled top flamed me, calling me a shit jungler because i traded my top side jungle for the enemy shaco jungler's bot side jungle for most of the game, allowing the enemy jungler to constantly gank our top to try and get their top ahead, as i got my midlaner, adc, and support ahead on the other side of the map.
Make a tank video next. One thing I've always liked about DOTA 2 is how fun their "tanks" are to play compared to other MOBAs. Even though DOTA 2 doesn't have a class system like other MOBAs, they have characters that fit the archetype like Axe, Legion Commander, and Centaur. I don't feel bored playing these heroes like I usually do with other tanks.
Well I mean Awesomenauts also had fun tanks but they were the other exception to the rule (sentry is still the best designed tank in any game ever in my opinion).
Probably because dota / cota community figured out that in a non-linear fight, tanks are kinda obsolete and isn't entertaining if they dont pose certain threat (team debuff, CC, big teamfight ults)
Good chunk of them have really fun high end scaling. My favorite one is undying who eats drawn out fights for lunch, and sk whose late game can get so oppressive that you can force your opponent to respect you, I almost won a 1v5 but my rng wasn't nice enough to stun their pos 1 in sandstorm so I only took 2 and the team had the clean 2.
Love that you used the main theme from Smite when talking about League’s Smite 😂 I’d love to see discussions about Smite as well, or at least Smite 2 once that’s fully out.
@@Acex2ron I'd say Smite and Dota 2 are my favourite MOBAs. Smite 1 is fun mechanically but it struggles to escape its more casual atmosphere and lack of strategical depth. SMITE 2 looks like its going to be a slightly more traditional/hardcore MOBA (active items, more god flexibility, bounty runes, etc) while keeping SMITE's fast paced gameplay. Laning will still rely mostly on pushing with a reduced emphasis on last hitting and CS. I'm very curious to see how it plays out, but I'm dummy excited to see SMITE become slightly more interesting strategically.
Most people dont know how fun it is to play pos 4. You get to setup ganks or respond to ganks. With the addition of the twin gates it's very satisfying to surprise the enemy safe laner that is just a bit out of position. And the fact that if you killed them you know they gonna be pissed and pinging you at least 9 times.
Well said! Back when I was a ranked warrior, it was my off-role after Offlaner. It helps a lot that common Pos 4 heroes are some of the most fun when played well (Namely Rubick, Shaker, and Earth Spirit)
18:24 haha that's spot on. Yesterday I had a game where I tracked and countered the ganks of the enemy jungler the whole game, did all 6 voidgrubs + Shelly, but lost the game because my team refused to help with any dragon and tried to kill baron twice while I was on the other side of the map (and they got wiped and gave the enemy team baron both times). Then they tried to blame me, the only guy with a positive K/D/A
I've been playing DOTA 2 a lot more lately. Whether it's position 4 or 5, I feel a lot more respected and valued as a support player whereas in LoL, support mains are constantly insulted for having poor mechanics and being "Elo boosted" whether it's true at all or not. Vision control feels a lot more rewarding when wards last 6 minutes, see huge areas, and give several creeps worth of gold when I kill the enemy's observer.
Well other roles focus more on mechanical execution rather than macro knowledge, so they will appreciate the stun or assassin oneshot a lot more than the smart roam and vision that made it possible. Supports nowadays get a lot more recognition than they used to get in earlier seasons, but we do also get called inflated a lot more. I think a great support is the soft foundation of most wins, but a bad one is the silent reason of many bad losses. Our impact is great, but hard to notice unless we perma gank mid.
yeah its problem in carry picks. in league you have squishy high dmg dealers that are weak until 3+ items (ofc not always but most of the time) while in dota you can have pos1 carry melee bruisers like wrait king, life stealer, pudge etc. (actual stats). so while in dota you have these beefy str carries in lol you have squishy weak champ that has one job and that is survive and dont int until you get strong (again... not always especialy on higher ranks) if you have 2v2 fight in lol at level 2 something like ashe + leona vs varus + alistar the fight will go this way: leona jump on varus and kill him solo, alistar jump on ashe and kill her solo. supports at start of the game are stronger that carries in direct fights so if you as support are worse than enemy support your carry will have really bad time. thats why supports are so hated. because its harder for good adc to carry bad support than is for good support to carry bad adc. tldr: in lol supports are stronger than carries in early and their skill is needed for carry to be able to farm and is expected of support to carry early game while in dota carry is the true carry while support support him to be even better carry.
Even if I don’t plan to play Lol in near future these vids are very interesting just for better understanding the other game and my own game. Btw, one of the things that kinda bothers me in terms of why I don’t want to start Lol is just an absurd lack of in-game information about stuff and limited ways to get it. I even was surprised to find out that an offficial! League site has barely any info about characters ( but a screen-sized section about champ skins, I reeeealy need it). There is also very limited testing polygon, no way to read skills of other heroes in match, and as I can tell (but no sure) no champ stats before you decide to buy them. Meanwhile in Dota even official site has plenty of info about hero numbers, a glossary of mechanics, very powerful demo mode, ability to read every skill of everything in match (also an easy access to main menu with all the info there). Ofc it can be not that important for someone but I like when games can give me enough info if I want to learn something without using external sites for basics (external sites and Wikies are for nuances and details, not for basic numbers of dmg enemy skill does)
People use 3rd party sites from the beginning and the league has practice tool. You dont really need more info, league is easy, just play and hit your skills shots.
@@KEEETARO I believe that good competitve games should have enough info inside of them and intricacies are left for Wiki. If I can't open the menu and see damage numbers of enemy char spells I will need extra time to learn the game. And speaking of league's practice tool I believe it's quite barebones, isn't it? Coz in Dota's one I can simulate almost every situation just by myself.
Yeah League is very lackluster in that aspect, we've been asking for a lot of the things you mention for ages. The actual problem is that most of the code is very outdated and the client is very bad compared to other modern games.
In a nutshell, here's a short description of all dota's positions: Pos 1: the kid Pos 2: the narcissist Pos 3: the bully Pos 4: the father figure Pos 5: the babysitter
I've never played Dota 2 with a mind to understand or bother with the position 1-5 mindset so it's nice to hear you explain the stuff to me since it goes over my head. To be clear, I originally played way more Dota 2 than LoL but I fell out of favor with the game because the community felt so toxic with its absurd ideas like 'position 4 hero must always buy blink dagger' or whatever other annoying standard that I didn't necessarily believe in.
@@fish-kt4iq The guy practically repeated the thought in the video "some heroes will at least find some use if they just get a blink dagger" is very similar to "my teammate is so useless because they don't even buy a blink dagger to be the minimum of usefulness to our team" -- IOW people in Dota 2 are always scapegoating their teammates, it doesn't matter which role they have on the team, it's never their own fault. Difference is in LoL it's traditionally 'the jungler's fault' whereas in Dota 2 it might be less likely to be 'pos 4's fault' but it's still just as easy to see people scapegoating others.
Hey man, I gotta say - I found your channel randomly yesterday and I really love the content - it is not everyday someone compares these two games in such depth. Keep it up - I would love to see more of this, even though I'm not a huge Dota player myself!
I'd like to mention that pos 4 in the last big tournament of dota PGL Wallachia which was around when this video was released, was picked as a carry role. There were quite a few games where the offlaner and midlaner were lower in net worth than the pos 4 and pos 4 had huge damage and kill pressure. There were marcis, hoodwinks and nature's propherts deleting enemy hard carries. It's most definitely not just a support role. And it's not just pro play, it happens all the time in pubs too, the pos 4 just gets so far ahead on semi-carry heroes like the ones mentioned that they deal carry level of damage. My second role in league is jungle, my first one being ADC, while pos 4 is my least played dota role and pos 3/5 being my most played. So yeah they're the most different roles in both games.
You segment about carries played as support pos 4 in Dota reminded me of an incident with the boys when our local pos 4 player said, "Dawg you dont need gold an space to play a carry properly." then proceeded to play a support anti-mage who just farmed champions and absolutely destroyed the game.
I would argue (25:57) map awareness for dota is a must for all roles. Pos 1 to avoid ganks and maybe tp to a good fight or to pickoff/clear some free kills. Pos 5 to tp to mid or offlane if needed if there is a tower dive or to secure the rune ( if he can ) for the midlaner because its not only the pos 4 job to do that. Pos 3 to tp to bot to help , to avoid mid ganks and have an understanding when to push the tower as it frees up the map for his team and limits the enemy team safe space. Pos 2 needs to be aware where enemy supports are at all time as mid is usually 50/50 and one stun or nuke from a smoke gank is enough for you to die and offcourse watching for ganks and counterganks. To summarize all positions in Dota need to have map awareness due to different reasons, but its required for all because TPs, portals and heroes with global presence exist in Dota.
As pos4 in Dota - NEVER grab a bounty rune at min 3. Doing so you 1) guarantee to give the opponent the lotus, which is 10 more important to win the lane 2) deny your own midlaner a bottle refill at 3 min mark 3) leave your offlaner alone for almost a minute for measly 40 gold. 3min Bounty rune is for your midlaner to get. Don't grief, get the lotus.
True. Lotuses are far more valuable for trades and kill attempts later. At 6 minute mark bounties are even more worthless coz you'd rather help the mid secure the first power rune spawn.
as an offlaner and pos 4, pos 4 is your typical overworked oldman running around a large map without being spotted from top to bottom and vice versa. but pos 4 is the most fun position early to pre-late game and pos 3 is fun when you have either dagger/bkb usually during mid game. for early game pos 3 is such a long day lmaooo
as someone who has played alot of both games - by far the funniest part of this video is "the night cycle reduces vision on *most* heroes" leave it to dota to make the most minute thing a mechanic that the community well then abuse into the ground
the reason for this is the fact that jungle role sits on all the agency. it is the only role in the entire game that have the agency to impact the outcome of every single event. If any of your laner dies under their own turret, you could've prevented that. If enemy jungler have a successful gank somewhere, you could've been there to contest, OR make a play somewhere else to take advantage of the fact their jungler can not intercept. if any laner dies, you can screw enemies tempo by stopping recalls or holding the wave to allow your recovering teammate to freeze, essentially putting them AHEAD despite the death. The strenght of the role is endless, which is why they also recieve alot of blame.
My favorite one happened today but playing as undying 4 was funm saw the 5 stack camp. Gets soul tear ready. Drop down tombstone and bam. Nuked the pos 5 and killed the pos 1 while taking all that sweet stack gold. It was beautiful. Another one was roaming their jungle prepping for a bit camp. Saw the mid farm a stack so i go up and steal a bit of their farm. It was orgasmic. I also love how i got so big that we started movging them and controlling near fountain, i got stunlocmed and a batrider insta bb to drag my ass to fountain.
When Arc Warden was a meta pos 4 i play him and literary can make the enemy carry go into jungle in just 5 minutes. Vessel into Aghanim was wild on Arc pos 4.
I'm even more confused. Dota 2 is amazing, I can infer that much, but its extraordinary complexity and confusing item system seems like Aids. I'll never be playing it
@@matte9076 as long as you are willing to learn, Dota's mechanics are really easy to understand because they show you all the info you need while playing the game. Meanwhile in League i can't even read anything and the things i can read is filled with a wall of text with filler words instead, lol. We really need more QoL updates man.
Pos 4 is supporting without any of the stress. Run around, whack heros. Ignore all that creep business and let the pos 5 deal with all that icky warding and stacking
i hate this video because it means the top/offlaner video is coming soon and im not ready to be exposed like the masochistic mentally deranged piggy that i am (please talk about the glorious days of the suicide lane and how we somehow end up getting less farm than the pos 4 supports despite technically being higher on the pecking order)
28 minute long video... just about time for me to grab the experience rune ;) Also watching your videos made random LoL videos appear in my recommendeds and I hate it. Still love learning this stuff, since my sister has switched to league from dota.
Main jungler here (still Bronze because MY/SG server is hella braindead like SEA server in Dota 2). Pretty much accurate all the point you stated here. I've been putting myself on Jungle as main role, Top as secondary role. Usually, if I jungle, most of the time I carried the whole team but we still lose anyway despite having all objective secured. No one actually can play jungle properly if I become Top laner. So, I have to try getting their objectives even though we're pretty much losing. But yeah, if you Jungle, at least do the best to get objectives or do ganking and then you can blame other lane for feeding the enemy team if you're losing the game
For LoL players, to make it clear, there is no junglers in DOTA per see, except for a few heroes who can actually farm the jungle from the beginning of the game. Pos 4 is a soft support/roamer position the overwhelming majority of the time. The reason why we don't jungle is because, stacking somewhat alleviate the need of a jungle. Therefore, in DOTA, we don't lose as much exp and gold by not having a dedicated jungle. Furthermore, having a jungle often makes our lanes weaker, especially the offlane. It is better to win 3 lanes than winning 2 lanes, lose offlane but having a jungle. This is not the case in LoL where - if you win 3 lanes, but the enemy jungler is snowballing - you can be screwed.
Hey ace! It’s really impressive how your videos have grown so quickly. I’ve been looking to start a channel similar to this but I struggle with editing. How do you get clips for your videos and edit them?
Thanks! I have an NVIDIA graphics card so I use Nvidia Shadowplay to gather all of my gameplay footage. To speed up the footage gathering process, all footage from my videos are either Turbo in Dota or Quickplay in League. People don't come to this channel for high level gameplay nor skills analysis. They just need something to look at while I yap. For editing, I use Davinci Resolve, which is an absolute gem. It is a professional-grade video editing software that is available entirely for free on the internet. It's intuitive enough to use, but there are some video tutorials on UA-cam that can help. Good luck!
Felt that jungle rant in my soul lmao It is sad that in theory while the jungle role seems so fun to play (being a role with very high agency and many variable options to approach the game) it is ruined by the same thing that makes it great. With League being a game wherein one small mistake easily snowballs into massive enemy leads, junglers are given the biggest tax to do all the heavy decision-making - and when decision making in a strategy game is more of an art than a science - it's so easy to attribute all blame to the poor junglers.
Interesting opinion on the goat jungler. I've always thought it was Benji. Probably displaying when I was most invested in league by that comment, but those skt teams were so good and he was critical to one of the best series ever, skt vs rox tigers. Does show that junglers get the blame, given blank was flamed enough to get subbed out for Benji. Edit: As an aside, I think leagues jungle role might have the most iterations for a role. Smite has changed a lot over the years, and previously it scaled with level, could (sometimes) target champs, and gave random buffs depending on the camp smites. I especially loved the camp smites, as smiting wolves gave a little vision wraith that would move to spot enemies if they invaded. Smite unlocked items changed a lot over the years, and neutrals have changed as well. Early season drakes were almost entirely about gold, and rift herald didnt exist until 2016 and void grubs until this year. Jungling was very hard for most champs for most of league. 6 camp clear was basically a death sentence for most of the roster, and it was not uncommon to have to 3 camp and then back. Compared to early seasons jungle items are so overtuned, although not relative to the power creep of other roles and items.
To put it simply. League has a roaming ganking jungler while Dota has a roaming ganking laner. They are both position 4 roles with the same jobs. League is on the carry side while Dota focus on the support. Support as in placing vision or calling plays. Dota is more flexible with the pos4 role because you can have “greedy supports” aka carry heroes (champions) that need money in the pos4 role. Yet it’s a completely different play style which forces the player to understand power timings.
I don't know how you manage to play both games and maintain sanity. On the Drake Bell comment. He chatted with a fan (nothing sexual) and he didn't know her age, once he found out her age he cut all contact, she kept stalking him at shows and fan meetings (he didn't know this was that "fan") and later accused him of sexual misconduct, this was proven false in court but he pleaded guilty to the fact he had contact with her (attempted child endangerment).
That's the neat part--you don't. Also, thanks for shedding some light on the Drake Bell joke. I'm not sure exactly what's true anymore (such is life in the 2020s) because there's so much misinfo that I spent an embarrassing amount of time doing research on a throwaway gag. From what I saw, he did sext the girl and then backed off when he learned her age, and he'll have that over Aubrey any day.
Don't worry I understand. It was one of my ackchyually moments. Didn't think you'd pay much attention to it since you said allegedly. Anyhow it's crazy how the media would spread misinformation about something so serious...
I remember some specific meta where you could play heroes as jungler in dota 2. As you explained those strats where good because it allow your p4 to have quick blink plus boots and a small item. I guess you can still do that with Axe or Lifestealer those days but it's not really effectiv.
Part of the reason why i hate playing LoL is that if i get autofilled as jungler i might as well just stand AFK, while the only place where i feel like i'm bad in dota is middle.
A video I would love to see for you is about this phenomenon: "maining" a hero/champion As a dota player who very rarely plays league, this is a term I see in league all the time. People often have a "main" hero that they play almost exclusively. This is not the case at all in dota. Being a one trick or "maining" a hero just isn't a thing, or at least the number of people who do it is vanishingly rare. DotA players are likely to have a role that they "main", (though can usually play 1-2 other roles as well) but within that role, their hero pool is considerably bigger than I typically see from League players. Do you have any insight on why this is? It's always something I've found a bit weird and another key difference between the two games.
My take is that league is very into the fantasy of playing your champion. They make champions with flashy combos, they delete active items because 'they distract people from the champions' main skillsets' or something. And they make their champions 'real characters'. They have pretty art (base and skins), lore, random quirks, yada yada. Like aurora being autistic for... some reason. And most importantly, they are conventionally pleasing to the eye. Thus the 'x-main' syndrome came to be. Some people don't really like playing summoners rift all that much. Maybe they dont even like the role they are playing. But they play the champ they play because they resonate with its playstyles, its combos - its 'champion fantasies', if you will. Heck sometimes they arent even into the kit that much, they just like playing ahri or gwen because they like their designs. (This also leads to another rabbit hole on why the league community is so divided. The mains hate each other. The roles hate each other. Blah blah.) Meanwhile in dota, you don't just play your hero, you have to play the game. Since the game isn't 90% laning stage, you need to play the map, AKA play dota a lot more. Since you don't lane against your own role, and again laning doesnt last long, you actually need to know what the other roles do, and what the heroes in that role do. And what better way to learn that than to play that role for yourself? And the game forces you to play some games in both core and support roles anyways. Bam, no maining culture.
I don't think maining is about playing one hero exclusively, especially since in ranked mode your champion might get banned or picked by someone else. It just means whoever you enjoy most playing at any given time.
@@absolutelynotadog7498 You know, I feel like you THINK you have some point here, but you kinda don't. "My take is that league is very into the fantasy of playing your champion." You mean, just like every character-focused game ever? Because you can say the same thing about most other MOBAs, fighting games, hero shooters, PvE coop games, etc. "They make champions with flashy combos" Mate, Dota 2 has Invoker, a character whose entire playstyle revolves around flashy combos and his story is all about him being an arrogant show-off. That's not to mention heroes like Earth Spirit, Storm Spirit, Brewmaster, etc. "they delete active items because 'they distract people from the champions' main skillsets' or something." I looked around the wiki for Lol and there are still plenty of active items listed there. Granted I haven't Lol in a very long time so maybe there used to be more. "And they make their champions 'real characters'." Again, just like every character-focused game ever, because it's just good design that can massively help a game stand out. For example, take Valve's other game with a 2: Team Fortress. TF 2 was the first (or at least one of the first) class-based shooters that made its classes into actual characters, first by releasing their "Meet the..." series, and later by also having additional stories in the universe. And they were so successful, that despite being more than 17 years old at this point, TF 2 still has an enduring place in gaming culture. It's not just video games either. Warhammer, both Fantasy/AoS and 40k, has an entire plethora of larger than life characters to make the setting more compelling. Even the Necrons, a faction whose entire shtick is that they were stripped of emotions and memories have a caveat that the most powerful Necrons retained their personality and intellect. Because Games Workshop understands that most players want their army leader to be an actual character rather than just "random Necron #7362483". And yes, Dota 2 has also tried to make its heroes into 'real characters'. From the simple fact that heroes have some excellent voice acting (which is honestly underappreciated) and have specific voiceline interactions with certain other heroes, to the fact that they made an animated show in the universe. The fact that players aren't very invested in them and their world means that they have failed so far. Ironic, considering that TF 2, a game Valve has all but abandoned at this point, still has more cultural recognition than Dota 2 and Lol. "They have pretty art (base and skins)," Again, kind of important in games where different characters are a major focus. Which is why Valve has also made a ton of skins for characters in Dota 2. "lore," Mate, I want you to go to Dota 2's official website and click on the "Heroes" tab, then select any hero. Look at the section under the hero's name that describes their origin story and motivations. Any idea what we usually call that? "random quirks, yada yada. Like aurora being autistic for... some reason." Does there need to be a specific reason for a character to have any particular trait? Also, I like how you imply that Dota 2, a game with a dragon speaking in iambic pentameter, a goblin with a comical fear of trees, and a guy who just really hates mages aren't random quirks. Not to mention the lightning-based guy making electricity puns and the flame-based gal making fire puns. "Meanwhile in dota, you don't just play your hero, you have to play the game. " The entire cornerstone of the MOBA genre is that which character you play as is a fundamental part of the gameplay. Playing a particular character IS playing the game, whether Lol or Dota, or Smite etc. Do you want to tell me that playing different heroes does not fundamentally change how you approach the game? Do you play Zeus and Huskarl the exact same way? Do you buy Daedalus on Kotl because it was great on Sniper? Do you blink into the middle of the enemy team as Drow because" it worked out well when I was playing Tidehunter"? Things like laning or roaming and other game objectives are just a blank canvas by themselves, the main draw is always how different characters interact with those game mechanics. Like sure, there's probably at least ONE person who started playing Dota 2 specifically because they wanted to kill Roshan or something like that. But I'd say that for the vast majority the main appeal were meme videos by guys like TryMike4Instance or various highlights that showcase the strengths of specific heroes.
@tomshraderd4915 Yo, I think we aren't necessarily disagreeing with each other here. The thing is, our community and the league community just seem to have extremely different views on game mechanics. They care a lot more about the 'presentation'/marketing than we do. We just want to play the game, play dota. Yeah we do have world building, we do have lots of skins... but when you look at how league does it, they have novels, they have animated series (an extremely good one), music videos, trailers, yada yada. Their community actually whines when a trailer 'sucks' or when a champion (especially their main) doesn't get a music theme. Meanwhile I have the feeling the dota playerbase just care... less. Or rather, there are fewer people who cares. I think the crownfall stuff, especially the act 2 story was really cool, but I barely see anyone talking about it. Or maybe they did but the topic sunk into obscurity. Again, the dota players just want to play dota, just like in the warcraft 3 days. We don't need music videos or hot waifus to hype us into queueing all pick. And by no means am I saying that lol champions are more unique or I prefer LoL's approach. It's more like Riot is trying harder to 'brute force' that diversity. Like the aurora example. Timbersaw hates trees, it is his defining trait and yeah that is funny, very unique, and makes a lot of sense considering what his skills do. Meanwhile, Aurora being autistic feels pretty slapped on. She is a rabbit, dimension-jumping witch girl. Okay, cool...? Then riot just said 'she's also autistic btw' and there doesn't seem to be any further context. Obviously has nothing to do with her gameplay, her voice lines are pretty generic so nothing there. It's just, shall I say, inorganic. And yeah... a lot of points I made is just what a lot of games have. Yeah, if your games have characters then you will want to flesh them out, of course. But when you look at league, and compare it to dota, you'll see that riot cares a lot more about it, and so does the playerbase. Valve is doing the same currently (massive kudos for crownfall) but compared to riot they are still behind. (Tbf it's kinda hard to beat them at this bc riot literally makes shits like social media accounts to promote their 'music bands of LoL champions' and collaborate with real musicians to make music videos for said made-up band. They try REALLY hard.) And most importantly, dota players don't care as much. We just want to play dota, get mmr and maybe buy pretty pixels. Many just don't give a damn about nightstalker's race being massacred by kotl or something.
@@tomshraderd4915 Also, about some of my points that I made earlier, - Yes, people in league circles do think active items reduce champion uniqueness. A rioter straight up said it. Every once in a while people ask for things like zhonyas to be removed when to us it's a dollar store euls. Crazy right? Recently I've talked with a newbie from league, they asked 'so if dota has all these active items, how can characters be unique, if I can just buy a stun, a hex, a blink on everyone?' I replied 'well, by making the spells EVEN stronger' which made him even more confused. Their world is just very different from us. - Which is exactly my next point. To me, dota heroes' uniqueness are way more interesting than league champions. Dota heroes' uniqueness mostly lies in how they approach the game, from a macro standpoint. Even in the same role, sven and ck and jugg, all being 'melee right click carry' but they all have different plans. League champions are unique in the sense that fighting game characters are unique. They have 'movesets' with different shaped skillshots, sometimes different minigames. But when you look at the big picture, a lot of champions have the same macro plan. It's why they use lingos like assassins, juggernaut, enchanters etc. These characters practically does the same thing. But sometimes just having different movesets is enough! Again, their prefereences are just different. If they haven't played dota yet, they would think sven and ck are the same because they are both 'juggernauts' with a point and click stun.
ah, remember back in the day when people used to pick legion commander, go jungle, grab level 6 and blink, and have +1000 permanent damage by minute 35? me neither, cause they always died to camps. i don't miss the old jungling dota days, either ursa dying to roshan minute 5 cause they got bashed one too many times, bloodseeker that rushed euls scepter to cancel TP but had no damage while ganking or my favourite, the Nature's prophet that disappeared in the jungle for 25 minutes, and in then makes the game last 3 hours because the enemy can't leave their base and NP is the only one with any items, for league players who don't know, NP has a global teleport with 20 seconds cooldown (0 seconds with the new tree i'm not mistaken) and that kind of ganking power would be great, but back then they'd never use it!
Just wanna comment bc my two favorite DotA Pos 4's weren't mentioned. Windranger and Bounty Hunter are quite possibly the best chaos causers imo; Windranger literally needs a javeline, a null talisman, some form of boot (usually phase), and a forcestaff for a grand total of 5100 gold to be a menace during any point in the game threatening solo kills on supports constantly. On the other side of things Bonuty Hunter's abilities allow him to generate gold off of harassing and assisting kills on enemies with such efficiency that you can legitimately break 600gpm without ever hitting a creep or getting a kill yourself.
That's why I only play carry jungler in League. Stress free and they can only blame themselves as they can't expect Master Yi to have a proper gank. Idgaf if I lose, at least I have my fun. 🤣
Well team still flames you to the worst and If you dare Go 0/3 on yi your litterly imidiatly Struck by ff 15 we loss anyway and one or 2 Dude insta give up hope
LOL i just discoverd your channel and I love it. My brother plays dota and dabbled in league for a year with me, and I play league. I'm too pussy to play dota it looks too compilcated. Also your Drake diss took me out. And lastly was your outro playing "O Canada" LOLOL
to solve jungle remove smite and replace it with a different spell that handles neutrals. My reason for that is because teams perspective is that you are the only player that can nuke key obj. and you still cannot get it. Of course in solo Queue they dont see it in that way. They see it as, you chose responsibility so handle it in high accuracy. Because if mid feeds they think they can still come back as long as the "jungler gets the Drakes or Nashor" disregarding their lack of skills in their own role. I am a top main and I will leave my lane in favor of a jungle OBJ but if we end up getting cucked by the opposing team its hard not to be disappointed to the jungler because you invested time and risk being gapped on your lane and it went to Vayne. So I think removing smite in favor of a more balanced spell is better
At 9:02 Ace... how did you path to get into the enemy blue buff? Did they not ward the river? Did you path topside Bush into enemy blue? I like that play because even if you die or give jg info that you're ganking lvl 2 which means they can steal your buff and maybe greed for gromp and leave unless botlane rotates but you were on their blue so you gain an advantage and only lose one camp at most if botlane doesn't respond. That's alotta value!
when i watch these as a dota player, it makes me like dota even more, cause i cant tell what the fuck is going on in the league gameplay, the visual clarity in league sucks, either that or im just too used to dota
I played pos 3 4 and 5 All I'll say is that pos 4 is the most fun role in the game since I used to only play 5 transitioning to 4 having more gold to play with than back in the days where brown boots by 25 was the standard also if you play pos 3 your a menance to society
The problem in league is simple to see, but complex to solve. It's an extremely overloaded role, like no other in the game. But to solve it, they have to restructure the whole game.
well that explain why i enjoy pos4 and hated jg soo much, because for me pos4 its much more relax and more focus on the macro game, yes you still have the responsibility to put vision,gank and objective but at least your job its try your best to make the team work. While jungle felt like im trying to carry the team with everything i got alone, try to get the objective alone, try to get drake and baron alone, try to get my own kill so i can make all the item for winning the game cause none know how to carry. But yea both of them is really far different it felt playing a carry when playing jungle while pos4 felt more like support role but also a hybrid carry
lol after reading the title at first you were talking about the old jungle role in dota. no one loves that LC going straight to jungle back in the day except LC himself.
Fun Fact: Guinsoo really hated the Jungler Role because the Jungler Role was and still is causing a huge impact in League, smite was nearly remove
I didn't actually know this! Thanks for sharing!
Right now though the Jungle role is weaker compared to what it used to be actually because of repeated nerfs to ganking and the new jungle changes. It's not uncommon for a jungler to have a bit more XP than their own botlaner at certain points.
That says a lot because the role is still quite powerful.
Riot almost gave LoL the Dota 2 treatment from valve
@@Acex2ron Junglers typically are first to 6, but then heavily fall off compared to ADC.
@@janah6473 *Karthus enters the picture*
@@PlebCentre Almost like I said "typically". Not sure what you are trying to accomplish by telling me SOME very carry focused junglers take more ressources from the team to keep up in level. Thats per definition atypical.
I've got 1000+ hours in Dota (Pos 4&5) and started playing league recently. These videos have really helped me understand the nuance between the two games and have been a great introduction to League's playstyle. This has effectively replaced that one friend who introduces you to the game initially and tells you all about it, so I'm really thankful.
Something this video alludes to, which is also my biggest gripe with league, is that LoL has 4 core roles & 1 support. The lane setup of 1/1/1/2 means League feels less like a team game and more like 4 separate battles that are happening on the same map. I think this is why League is considered the more toxic game of the two as well as individual performance is more important, and losing the game because of someone else's actions feels worse than losing as a team.
A lack of TP scrolls or other movement skills means that Jungle is left with the burden of 'Teamwork', as they are the only role that can move around the map and help teammates while not sacrificing farm. I am currently just playing support and want to learn Jungling, but the pressure to perform is making the idea imposing.
That being said i'm loving the vids and i'm excited to see what you make next.
If you want to learn Jungle, just pick JG and get in there--and then mute the team. The Jungler, as a role, needs to trust in their own shotcalling skills and decision making.
One of the best pieces of advice given to me as a Jungler is to generally avoid ganking losing lanes. If your laner is losing lane without you, it's usually skill issue on their part, and they're not gonna carry you to a victory. Find a win condition, camp their lane, contest objectives, and you'll be fine! Don't let pressure stop you from playing this incredibly fun, yet definitely hated on, role.
And I'm glad you like the video!
thats primarilly in low elo, a good midlaner will push wave a gank (usually bot, because bot matters more), a top laner can go bot after pushing wave (this is mainly champs in top with globals) and will gank mid when ahead, top lane is much more of a 1v1 lane tho, with a lot of split pushers, so while this is common its also rare for top to rotate for anything other then securing objectives(once again I emphasize high elo). a support in high elo will gank mid a lot, or help the jungle invade, even going to secure objectives, support is probably the second most free role in the game, as if the adc is dead they are wasting their time in the bot lane, and they are only linked to the lane by the adc, who is very vulnerable without them in most cases, but they don't cs beyond item cs transfer, and while they do need xp, most can function with less of it. the one you directly interact with most besides jungle will be your lane opponent, that's true, but making plays all over the map isn't exclusive to just jungle, its just the jungle has no pre requisites to do it(besides camps, but they are doing those on the way to make a play)
Learning League is basically, master your champions rotations and match ups. Congrats you're now Diamond or higher.
I would say with jungle the key is to get used to sticking to your gameplan and not stressing when you are getting blamed. It is quite hard when beginning to understand that even if you have had 0 impact, you are not to blame for everything. A lot of laners will target you when they themselves were the reason for the state of the game or their lane and it doesn't reduce the higher you climb. A big part of jungle is resilience so if you do take it up be ready to train your mind and trust yourself
@@pandasempie it's not when you're getting blamed as JG in league, you're always going to get blamed because your jungle hahaha
LoL junglers are a wildcard in a game where lanes a very structured, and most players queue with a gameplan already in mind
Dota pos 4s are also wildcards, but the entire game is based around disruption, individual gamechanging spells, and shiftings plans on the go
Dota is more about outsmarting or outpacing enemy. League is more about outskill. Jungle is more impactful when you are outskill, when you are outsmarting you take gank in accountant
actually an accurate statement damn
Idc about what kind of plan you are talking. Laners have shitty habit to counterpick themselves just bc they want to play melee ad champ no matter what and run the game down when their idiocy got punished by enemy. If it is the plan, than I agree, lanes are very structured and lane players are always have a plan.
@@oldevilgreendog I said they always queue with a pre-stablished plan in mind
I never said the plan had to be good
"most laners queue with a gameplan already in mind"
lol, lmao
that is so stupidly untrue I cannot believe someone wrote it and 120 people agree
if you're not adapting to what everyone else is doing you're a loser, it's a core part of the game
junglers are not "wildcards", if you think they are it means you're not playing around your jungler and not tracking the enemy
the Dunning-Kruger effect in the League community needs to be studied, this is insane
I mean in Dota in 99% games position 4 tries to pick pudge. If he gets the pick, he gets 4 reports.
As the Pudge Theorem dictates, this is only true if said Pudge is on my team
@@Acex2ronBut don’t forget that Pudge doesn’t lose, his team does
Sit in the trees and miss all hooks. He gets so behind that PA will intentionally get hooked and 1shot pudge who only has boots and blink dagger 0 armor 12 mins in the game.
@@boartank or the one time the hook landed in the laning phase, it was an ursa/lifestealer.
pudge is so strong nowadays tho. if he does 2 items he becomes a beast. scepter/hood oof
Pos 4 player are the type of people who just "lives for the moments" when they hit a 5 man echo,rp,or black hole they get a dopamine rush and just wants the next chase. The satisfaction of a perfect AA blast, the just in time venge swaps. The perfect shallow graves and 5 man golems into fatal bonds.
They don't care if they're winning or losing. As long as they fulfilled what they set up to they are happy.
For me its watching my pos 3 grow up big and strong, and letting him live his life as I let his hand go to have some of my own impact in the map. That and also the sadism of making enemy pos 1 irrelevant and deleting them every couple minutes 😬
Same@@silvisakeru
that's a lot of words for 'nyx, nyx, nyx, nyx'
Well our team got destroyed and my kda is 1/15/8/ but that 5-man echo slam tho
@@Kamirasu It is why i love Nyx so much. NYX NYX NYX NYX NYX
I love the concept of Dota's ward wars. Supports have a simpler version of that concept too when you contest pink wards and go ward deep in jungle when enemies can't punish you. It's one of my favourite things to do as a support main.
As someone who plays DOTA consistently (immortal) and league semi-frequently (plat 2), I appreciate how concise and easy to understand you make all of these videos regardless of experience! Definitely one of the better MOBA content creators.
Everyone love pos 4 untill it is pudge staying afk in a trees for the whole line stage.
Oh we did have junglers in dota a wayy back ago... Iron Talon Legion Commander 10 min afk jungle until she gets blink and only then comes out of it to duel on cooldown then continues farming, or even worse midas rush lifestealer/wk which will legit stay in the jungle until they get 10k networth or the enemy team are pushing their barracks by 25 min. These memories are nightmare fuel... I do miss them, however 😵💫
Why is this nightmare fuel? LC dueling on cd and farming while its down seems like an impactful way to play LC. What's wrong with playing around LC's power spike?
@@SuperGGnoREbcos this playstyle for LC necessitates her to snowball through getting as many bonus duel damage as possible, which can work with core LC but it's a harder to pull off for jungler LC bcos she would need more items for this kind of playstyle to succeed in late game, which may become a problem in terms of gold distribution as now you basically have 2 carries on your team
another problem is actually similar to how jungler in LoL is hated, as pub jungler LC (or any jungler in pubs really) just sux at reading the map and making plays, they ended up just kept farming for way too long
@@SuperGGnoRE 1. A jungler entirely skips laning, which in turn ruins the offlane, making it 1v2.
2. Main carry (pos 1) can't retreat to the jungle in case of a bad lane, or even when a lane is won but he wants to continue farming, because the map was much smaller back then, and didn't have enough space for 2 heroes powerfarming.
3. From said above, in case of any lane being (inevitably) lost, your team wouldnt have any team fighting capability at early clashes, because the jungler can't usually effectively farm since level 1 and jungle creeps give less exp than lane creeps, meaning he will hit lv 6 later than everyone (maybe except another roaming pos4) AND the main carry/offlane/mid can't farm already occupied jungle, meaning the team with a jungler only stands a chance of winning if by pure luck, all lanes are won or in case of lost lanes, game goes farther than 45+ minutes, where team with a jungler has an edge by having 4 carries + 1 support versus usual 3 + 2.
P.S. Also, I forgot mentioning this, if a jungler is played versus a Zeus/Bloodseeker or any roaming supports like bounty hunter or Riki pos4, it's either a game over if you still decide to jungle OR you are forced to double offlane, still making your character useless (with some exceptions).
To the LC jungle question, I actually had no problem and even played her myself like that on occasion, it's more about the players misunderstanding the concept of the jungler back then. You could make use of LC jungle, but you had to play in a different way from just afk jungle.
1. Never pick a jungler into a greedy pick. Imagine sharing the farm with a mid sf and an antimage.
2. After hitting lv6, leave jungle priority to pos1, pos2. Either farm enemy part of jungle (near offlane) or the farthest possible camps from where mid or carry will farm.
3. Farm until a powerspike. Get your blink and go ganking nonstop. Never stay in the jungle longer than 15 minutes, that is an obvious way to lose a game. Pick jungle only if the offlaner is strong enough where he can break even 1v2 or can solo lane.
4. Have great map awareness and effective jungle pathing. You have to constantly check the map in case someone is being towerdived, to TP in and help while simultaneously farming the jungle most efficiently. The faster you are out of the jungle, the lesser chance of losing the early game.
Does this remind you of something? That's a simplified current pos 4 gameplay idea without early lane presence. Which could be sometimes good, since sometimes a strong offlaner could possibly gain more
exp through solo laning, but that was very, very rare, and the polar opposite much more common. Playing this way makes sense but is risky.
Seemingly, more than half of the players trying to jungle back then thought that picking jungle is equal to picking a main carry, and it's the laners job to help them stall the game until they can carry, which led them to afk jungle farming (with no idea of how to actually farm jungle effectively or any map awareness) which led to lost games. Hopefully I answered your question.
Iron Talon LC definitely wasn't the only (or even the biggest) Dota jungler. Chen, Enchantress, Enigma, and Batrider were all primary junglers at one point. The first 2 were essentially part of the safe trilane and would be ganking regularly, and the other 2 were aiming for 6-7 blink daggers to start making plays. There were also a bunch of carry junglers, which did include LC and Naix (Lifestealer) but also Nature's Prophet, Necrophos/lyte, Terrorblade, Lone Druid, Lycan, and probably some other irregulars.
In the case of carry junglers, in any sensible draft they just were the pos1 and the person farming the safelane was an early/mid-game carry who was looking to make space and take towers while the jungler afk farmed. You'd see people like Bristleback, Juggernaut, Kunkka, Necrophos/lyte (with Mek+Arc boots rush), MoM sniper, etc farming for a first mid-priced item and then taking all the T1 towers to open up space.
Jungling used to be a legit part of Dota and it was absolutely more than just LC cheese.
@@tehDaiquiri welll... it used to be in many ocassions 1v3 lane for offlaner; skipping lane for woods was not bad idea. Offlaners were used to be semi supports back in the days (you pick something with big impact w/o much early gold requirements, tanky if possible since it have to survive at least some plays). tbh I miss days of solo offlane 'yea, I am 0/6, I think my laning went quite well'. Junglers were basically pos 2/3 (depend on midlaner) while off was rather 4 (-global presence; I am talking about resource distribution which is base for numerical position in doto). So you had your LC, Furions, Bloodcyka, Lycans and others (passive necro killing ancients by power of smelly aura, my beloved)- most of old junglers were not pos4. They were early carries (pos1 was pretty much always lategame carry like morph, AM, phantom cancer; someone had to carry through midgame).
Immortal pos 4 again. Some things I would add to this video:
1. In your pos 4 viability checklist (23:15), the most important thing for me is your hero's synergy with your pos 2 and (to a lesser extent) pos 5. This is because these are usually* your midgame playmakers. Pos 1 needs to farm and pos 3 needs to make space (+build teamfight items), so 2/4/5 are usually the ones grouping up to smoke for picks. Also, most pos 3 heroes are able to 1v2 in lane (or creepdrag), and even if they lose you can always shut down the enemy carry with a gank; But if your mid loses badly, there isn't really anybody in the game who can shut down the enemy mid even if your offlane wins. So it's more important to have good synergy with mid, even if it hurts your lane partner. This brings me to my next point:
2. In your section on timings (5:38), rotating for the 6 minute (and 8 minute) power rune is probably THE SINGLE most important timing to hit as a pos 4. Getting a "good rune" (damage, arcane, haste) can basically guarantee a successful gank if a mid player gets it. If both mids buy bottle, it becomes even more pivotal since they can save the rune to turn a key fight. These are so important that sometimes pos 5s will rotate as well, and the resulting 3v3 fights can be game deciding. This is another reason 2/4/5 synergy is so important. I know this video was about how "everyone loves pos 4" but when I see a pos 4 getting flamed this is usually why.
3. One of the biggest factor in pos 4 viability is the ability to easily make stacks, and help your team clear them early. From the offlane, you have the easiest access to the triangle, which are the best camps to stack in the game since they are easy to defend and only place you can stack a hard camp + ancient camp at the same time. If you have a hero who loves stacks like Luna, Bristle, Sven or TA, then it is often worth it to leave lane every single minute to stack triangle, and this is why these heroes are often picked alongside stacking pos 4s like Shadow Demon, Batrider, Rubick, or Hoodwink. Also, as long as you remember to go early for wisdom rune, you basically get a "free stack" at 7 minutes on the side ancient camp since you should be going there anyways.
4. The last big factor in pos 4 viability is teamfight initiation and/or backline jump. In most fights, it is usually too risky for your pos 2/3 to go initiate first without vision, and they can't just completely abandon the 1/5 to chase the enemy backliners. In mid-game teamfights, it is basically your job to throw your body into the enemy team to get vision, cause chaos, and force key targets out of position. Out of the 15 most played pos 4s in high MMR pubs right now (dota2protracker.com/), I'd say 11/15 are chosen mainly for their ability to help initiate fights and disrupt backliners (Tiny, NP, Bounty, Techies, Nyx, Pudge, Bane, Tusk, Earthshaker, Bat, and SB) with the rest being stacking heroes (Hood, Rubick, SD, Willow).
Ah I was waiting for this! Thanks again for the insights!
Hopefully people who want to get better at the role, or want to try this role out, get to see this comment
@@Acex2ron Thanks. Really loving the direction of the channel so far, keep up the good work. Drake joke was hilarious lol.
Im currently trying to get better from trashlow and have found that one of the most powerful things you can do in low ranks is just go in first to tank the cc and let your carry carry, if I have something like euls and greaves Im prob gonna live a half hearted engage as a 5 and due to the fact Im playing gready 5s my teamfight impact isnt the biggest. (Mainly talking about gyro here but also phoenix works as well)
@@samueljames8654 Yes, there is definitely times as a support where you need to die in order to bait out important spells. But there's a fine line between baiting and feeding-and better players will know not to waste their big cooldowns on a pos 5. Remember, if your strategy relies on your oponents misplaying then it will never get you out of low elo since it only works on bad players.
In 90% of games you're probably better off playing a less greedy support and letting your offlane tank instead. If your carry is getting CC'd, try building saves like glimmer, lotus orb or force staff. If you really want to play a suicide playstyle, maybe try playing someone more suited to diving like Tiny, Earthshaker or Spirit Breaker.
@@jackmccarthy7644 I think part of it is that people at the rank don't respect the space you can stand in, so they will go on you more in odd places more than when they actually understand the game. I think generally the places I stand are still good in better games it's more that they won't go on me so I'll get said saves off on allies instead of using them on myself
The term Jungler for dota is kinda outdated. There was a time where there's actual jungling option for pos4 with certain hero, but both Valve and the community figured out it was lacking impact. The common terms for pos 4 are Roamer now.
I do agree that both Jungler and Roamer are expected to create impact through rotations, but where it differs is that Junglers in LoL have dedicated jungle, and the heavy role of smiting objectives, therefore creating even bigger expectations to fulfill since they can get their own gold. In Dota, pos 4 don't farm as much as cores (depending on the hero) but can already create noticeable impact simply by rotating or map control. Even when playing from behind, you can't really blame pos 4 since they are not the one farming.
If i had to express it, Junglers in LoL is in a race against each other, while Roamers in Dota is in a match of creativity and clever plays
Also i had to say, it was a real dark time when pos 4 was played as a jungler (offlane main at the time, hugging towers all the time xd)
@@raflyarafat4882 I was that pos4 jungler, cliffjungling in radiant triangle with Storm Spirit or Necrolyte by abusing the freshly added gg branch active.
Man, I miss those days...
Well said! I very much agree with how the Jungler is in a race against their role opponent.
Though I still prefer the term "Playmaking Support" because true roamers are a lost art form because there's just too much resource in lane that you're giving up and it's a risky playstyle that may not pay off, especially when staying in lane means protecting your 3, helping to secure ranged creeps, and getting extra money from the Flagbearer. That being said though, Roaming Mirana and Earth Spirit will always be a part of Dota's history.
kinda miss afk jungling as chen/ld/lc/naix/lycan back in dota 1 days
Oh god old LC jungler
once upon a time, before void grubs, i queued up for a normal game, and got auto-filled into jungle. i picked sejuani because she's basically the only jungler i consistently do decent/well on. Eventually i ganked bot, got the enemy adc's flash (maybe some more summs, idr), and told my bot "i'm gonna go get my buffs and then come back for a gank, if you could let them push and freeze the wave in front of your tower for me, that'd be cool" and i did just that. I'm pretty sure my bot accidentally reset the wave right before i ganked, but our adc got a double kill off that gank none the less. After the gank, we grabbed dragon (with mid lane coming down to join us), and we got it uncontested. After dragon i followed the midlaner up to their lane because the enemy mid was very greedily at our tower. I had to stop auto attacking the enemy and try to body block them in order to give the kill to our mid laner, but the mid laner did get the kill. After that, i went to the enemies bot side to see if the enemy jungler had gotten their red since i took my top side red, and luckily for me it was up, so i tried to take it as sneakily as possible in case shaco came for it. In that roughly minute or two of gameplay i secured 3 kills for our carries, got us a dragon, and put some semblance of control over 3/4ths of the map. Needless to say, we won that game. And in the end game chat, my kled top flamed me, calling me a shit jungler because i traded my top side jungle for the enemy shaco jungler's bot side jungle for most of the game, allowing the enemy jungler to constantly gank our top to try and get their top ahead, as i got my midlaner, adc, and support ahead on the other side of the map.
I like how you starting play smite music from a different game when you mentioned the summoner spell smite. good addition to the video.
Make a tank video next. One thing I've always liked about DOTA 2 is how fun their "tanks" are to play compared to other MOBAs. Even though DOTA 2 doesn't have a class system like other MOBAs, they have characters that fit the archetype like Axe, Legion Commander, and Centaur. I don't feel bored playing these heroes like I usually do with other tanks.
Well I mean Awesomenauts also had fun tanks but they were the other exception to the rule (sentry is still the best designed tank in any game ever in my opinion).
Probably because dota / cota community figured out that in a non-linear fight, tanks are kinda obsolete and isn't entertaining if they dont pose certain threat (team debuff, CC, big teamfight ults)
Good chunk of them have really fun high end scaling. My favorite one is undying who eats drawn out fights for lunch, and sk whose late game can get so oppressive that you can force your opponent to respect you, I almost won a 1v5 but my rng wasn't nice enough to stun their pos 1 in sandstorm so I only took 2 and the team had the clean 2.
@@UsingGorillaLogic Awesomenauts really was ahead of its time...
Seems like your favorite tanks have a theme huh.
Love that you used the main theme from Smite when talking about League’s Smite 😂
I’d love to see discussions about Smite as well, or at least Smite 2 once that’s fully out.
I haven't touched Smite much, but I'm very interested in Smite 2 and am waiting for it to come out!
@@Acex2ron I'd say Smite and Dota 2 are my favourite MOBAs. Smite 1 is fun mechanically but it struggles to escape its more casual atmosphere and lack of strategical depth. SMITE 2 looks like its going to be a slightly more traditional/hardcore MOBA (active items, more god flexibility, bounty runes, etc) while keeping SMITE's fast paced gameplay. Laning will still rely mostly on pushing with a reduced emphasis on last hitting and CS. I'm very curious to see how it plays out, but I'm dummy excited to see SMITE become slightly more interesting strategically.
@@teediumTVYeah I saw a bit of Smite 1 and thought it was boring. Glad they're taking inspiration from the best moba this time.
Most people dont know how fun it is to play pos 4. You get to setup ganks or respond to ganks. With the addition of the twin gates it's very satisfying to surprise the enemy safe laner that is just a bit out of position.
And the fact that if you killed them you know they gonna be pissed and pinging you at least 9 times.
Well said! Back when I was a ranked warrior, it was my off-role after Offlaner. It helps a lot that common Pos 4 heroes are some of the most fun when played well (Namely Rubick, Shaker, and Earth Spirit)
18:24 haha that's spot on. Yesterday I had a game where I tracked and countered the ganks of the enemy jungler the whole game, did all 6 voidgrubs + Shelly, but lost the game because my team refused to help with any dragon and tried to kill baron twice while I was on the other side of the map (and they got wiped and gave the enemy team baron both times).
Then they tried to blame me, the only guy with a positive K/D/A
I've been playing DOTA 2 a lot more lately. Whether it's position 4 or 5, I feel a lot more respected and valued as a support player whereas in LoL, support mains are constantly insulted for having poor mechanics and being "Elo boosted" whether it's true at all or not. Vision control feels a lot more rewarding when wards last 6 minutes, see huge areas, and give several creeps worth of gold when I kill the enemy's observer.
Well other roles focus more on mechanical execution rather than macro knowledge, so they will appreciate the stun or assassin oneshot a lot more than the smart roam and vision that made it possible.
Supports nowadays get a lot more recognition than they used to get in earlier seasons, but we do also get called inflated a lot more.
I think a great support is the soft foundation of most wins, but a bad one is the silent reason of many bad losses. Our impact is great, but hard to notice unless we perma gank mid.
yeah its problem in carry picks.
in league you have squishy high dmg dealers that are weak until 3+ items (ofc not always but most of the time) while in dota you can have pos1 carry melee bruisers like wrait king, life stealer, pudge etc. (actual stats). so while in dota you have these beefy str carries in lol you have squishy weak champ that has one job and that is survive and dont int until you get strong (again... not always especialy on higher ranks) if you have 2v2 fight in lol at level 2 something like ashe + leona vs varus + alistar the fight will go this way: leona jump on varus and kill him solo, alistar jump on ashe and kill her solo. supports at start of the game are stronger that carries in direct fights so if you as support are worse than enemy support your carry will have really bad time. thats why supports are so hated. because its harder for good adc to carry bad support than is for good support to carry bad adc.
tldr:
in lol supports are stronger than carries in early and their skill is needed for carry to be able to farm and is expected of support to carry early game while in dota carry is the true carry while support support him to be even better carry.
Even if I don’t plan to play Lol in near future these vids are very interesting just for better understanding the other game and my own game. Btw, one of the things that kinda bothers me in terms of why I don’t want to start Lol is just an absurd lack of in-game information about stuff and limited ways to get it. I even was surprised to find out that an offficial! League site has barely any info about characters ( but a screen-sized section about champ skins, I reeeealy need it). There is also very limited testing polygon, no way to read skills of other heroes in match, and as I can tell (but no sure) no champ stats before you decide to buy them. Meanwhile in Dota even official site has plenty of info about hero numbers, a glossary of mechanics, very powerful demo mode, ability to read every skill of everything in match (also an easy access to main menu with all the info there). Ofc it can be not that important for someone but I like when games can give me enough info if I want to learn something without using external sites for basics (external sites and Wikies are for nuances and details, not for basic numbers of dmg enemy skill does)
People use 3rd party sites from the beginning and the league has practice tool. You dont really need more info, league is easy, just play and hit your skills shots.
@@KEEETARO I believe that good competitve games should have enough info inside of them and intricacies are left for Wiki. If I can't open the menu and see damage numbers of enemy char spells I will need extra time to learn the game. And speaking of league's practice tool I believe it's quite barebones, isn't it? Coz in Dota's one I can simulate almost every situation just by myself.
Yeah League is very lackluster in that aspect, we've been asking for a lot of the things you mention for ages. The actual problem is that most of the code is very outdated and the client is very bad compared to other modern games.
In a nutshell, here's a short description of all dota's positions:
Pos 1: the kid
Pos 2: the narcissist
Pos 3: the bully
Pos 4: the father figure
Pos 5: the babysitter
imo being a narcissist is required to be a good pos 2 though, those kind of people can snowball the best given the lead
@@saif-gv6glI had a kid as a pos 2 before, and damn he was whiny as hell for having no one to "support" him. He should've picked carry lol.
Very spot on actually
19:49 chad DK ignores warnings and kills both
I've never played Dota 2 with a mind to understand or bother with the position 1-5 mindset so it's nice to hear you explain the stuff to me since it goes over my head. To be clear, I originally played way more Dota 2 than LoL but I fell out of favor with the game because the community felt so toxic with its absurd ideas like 'position 4 hero must always buy blink dagger' or whatever other annoying standard that I didn't necessarily believe in.
@@fish-kt4iq The guy practically repeated the thought in the video "some heroes will at least find some use if they just get a blink dagger" is very similar to "my teammate is so useless because they don't even buy a blink dagger to be the minimum of usefulness to our team" -- IOW people in Dota 2 are always scapegoating their teammates, it doesn't matter which role they have on the team, it's never their own fault. Difference is in LoL it's traditionally 'the jungler's fault' whereas in Dota 2 it might be less likely to be 'pos 4's fault' but it's still just as easy to see people scapegoating others.
Hey man, I gotta say - I found your channel randomly yesterday and I really love the content - it is not everyday someone compares these two games in such depth. Keep it up - I would love to see more of this, even though I'm not a huge Dota player myself!
Throwing shade at heralds is the most dota thing ever
They can't be worse than League's current Heralds x(
bruh i've said this before but your humour combined with actual informative content is so neat.
keep it up.
I'd like to mention that pos 4 in the last big tournament of dota PGL Wallachia which was around when this video was released, was picked as a carry role. There were quite a few games where the offlaner and midlaner were lower in net worth than the pos 4 and pos 4 had huge damage and kill pressure. There were marcis, hoodwinks and nature's propherts deleting enemy hard carries. It's most definitely not just a support role. And it's not just pro play, it happens all the time in pubs too, the pos 4 just gets so far ahead on semi-carry heroes like the ones mentioned that they deal carry level of damage.
My second role in league is jungle, my first one being ADC, while pos 4 is my least played dota role and pos 3/5 being my most played. So yeah they're the most different roles in both games.
You segment about carries played as support pos 4 in Dota reminded me of an incident with the boys when our local pos 4 player said, "Dawg you dont need gold an space to play a carry properly." then proceeded to play a support anti-mage who just farmed champions and absolutely destroyed the game.
I would argue (25:57) map awareness for dota is a must for all roles. Pos 1 to avoid ganks and maybe tp to a good fight or to pickoff/clear some free kills. Pos 5 to tp to mid or offlane if needed if there is a tower dive or to secure the rune ( if he can ) for the midlaner because its not only the pos 4 job to do that. Pos 3 to tp to bot to help , to avoid mid ganks and have an understanding when to push the tower as it frees up the map for his team and limits the enemy team safe space. Pos 2 needs to be aware where enemy supports are at all time as mid is usually 50/50 and one stun or nuke from a smoke gank is enough for you to die and offcourse watching for ganks and counterganks. To summarize all positions in Dota need to have map awareness due to different reasons, but its required for all because TPs, portals and heroes with global presence exist in Dota.
As pos4 in Dota - NEVER grab a bounty rune at min 3. Doing so you 1) guarantee to give the opponent the lotus, which is 10 more important to win the lane 2) deny your own midlaner a bottle refill at 3 min mark 3) leave your offlaner alone for almost a minute for measly 40 gold. 3min Bounty rune is for your midlaner to get. Don't grief, get the lotus.
True. Lotuses are far more valuable for trades and kill attempts later. At 6 minute mark bounties are even more worthless coz you'd rather help the mid secure the first power rune spawn.
as an offlaner and pos 4, pos 4 is your typical overworked oldman running around a large map without being spotted from top to bottom and vice versa. but pos 4 is the most fun position early to pre-late game and pos 3 is fun when you have either dagger/bkb usually during mid game. for early game pos 3 is such a long day lmaooo
Playing Smite (the moba) music at 12:20 was a nice touch
as someone who has played alot of both games - by far the funniest part of this video is "the night cycle reduces vision on *most* heroes" leave it to dota to make the most minute thing a mechanic that the community well then abuse into the ground
How does this have anything to do with the community?
But Dota also has junglers from minute 1, we call them "gameruiners".
When iron Talon is remove there's no more
@@egashidki5415 some men are brave enough to jungle even tho their fav item were removed.
12:20 I love how you started playing smite's menu music there
Behind the scenes:
"Oh dang, the previous track ran out before I can start talking about Smite. I need more BG music."
...
"Wait a second... Smite?"
@@Acex2ron Wait, HOW DID I NOT NOTICE THAT???
wpwp
the reason for this is the fact that jungle role sits on all the agency. it is the only role in the entire game that have the agency to impact the outcome of every single event. If any of your laner dies under their own turret, you could've prevented that. If enemy jungler have a successful gank somewhere, you could've been there to contest, OR make a play somewhere else to take advantage of the fact their jungler can not intercept. if any laner dies, you can screw enemies tempo by stopping recalls or holding the wave to allow your recovering teammate to freeze, essentially putting them AHEAD despite the death. The strenght of the role is endless, which is why they also recieve alot of blame.
That music you used while talking about leagues smite spell…touché
My favorite one happened today but playing as undying 4 was funm saw the 5 stack camp. Gets soul tear ready. Drop down tombstone and bam. Nuked the pos 5 and killed the pos 1 while taking all that sweet stack gold. It was beautiful. Another one was roaming their jungle prepping for a bit camp. Saw the mid farm a stack so i go up and steal a bit of their farm. It was orgasmic. I also love how i got so big that we started movging them and controlling near fountain, i got stunlocmed and a batrider insta bb to drag my ass to fountain.
You sly dog, I can't believe you quietly start playing Smite menu music in the section talking about the smote summoner spell xD
I'm pleasantly surprised at the number of people who have noticed!
I am feeling excited with how much more there is to do as a sup in dota than in league. Installing rn
When Arc Warden was a meta pos 4 i play him and literary can make the enemy carry go into jungle in just 5 minutes. Vessel into Aghanim was wild on Arc pos 4.
As a recovering League player, I thank you for making Dota seem remotely understandable to me.
I'm even more confused.
Dota 2 is amazing, I can infer that much, but its extraordinary complexity and confusing item system seems like Aids.
I'll never be playing it
@@matte9076 as long as you are willing to learn, Dota's mechanics are really easy to understand because they show you all the info you need while playing the game. Meanwhile in League i can't even read anything and the things i can read is filled with a wall of text with filler words instead, lol. We really need more QoL updates man.
@@matte9076 sure don't play it. Who told you to play dota anyways?
If you locked in jungle role you have 3 jobs
1. Fight your enemies
2. Fight your teammates
3. Fight your urge to int cuz of the unecessary flame
Pos 4 is supporting without any of the stress. Run around, whack heros. Ignore all that creep business and let the pos 5 deal with all that icky warding and stacking
i hate this video
because it means the top/offlaner video is coming soon and im not ready to be exposed like the masochistic mentally deranged piggy that i am (please talk about the glorious days of the suicide lane and how we somehow end up getting less farm than the pos 4 supports despite technically being higher on the pecking order)
28 minute long video... just about time for me to grab the experience rune ;)
Also watching your videos made random LoL videos appear in my recommendeds and I hate it. Still love learning this stuff, since my sister has switched to league from dota.
Main jungler here (still Bronze because MY/SG server is hella braindead like SEA server in Dota 2).
Pretty much accurate all the point you stated here.
I've been putting myself on Jungle as main role, Top as secondary role. Usually, if I jungle, most of the time I carried the whole team but we still lose anyway despite having all objective secured. No one actually can play jungle properly if I become Top laner. So, I have to try getting their objectives even though we're pretty much losing.
But yeah, if you Jungle, at least do the best to get objectives or do ganking and then you can blame other lane for feeding the enemy team if you're losing the game
The SMITE OST playing as you start talking about Smite...
14:29 this play physically hurt me 😭😭😭 he Qed before kindred ult ended and even dodged the heal
For LoL players, to make it clear, there is no junglers in DOTA per see, except for a few heroes who can actually farm the jungle from the beginning of the game. Pos 4 is a soft support/roamer position the overwhelming majority of the time.
The reason why we don't jungle is because, stacking somewhat alleviate the need of a jungle. Therefore, in DOTA, we don't lose as much exp and gold by not having a dedicated jungle.
Furthermore, having a jungle often makes our lanes weaker, especially the offlane. It is better to win 3 lanes than winning 2 lanes, lose offlane but having a jungle. This is not the case in LoL where - if you win 3 lanes, but the enemy jungler is snowballing - you can be screwed.
4 commends and 4 reports was a good joke. Good video mate.
Based on a true experience. Glad you liked the vid!
Hey ace! It’s really impressive how your videos have grown so quickly. I’ve been looking to start a channel similar to this but I struggle with editing. How do you get clips for your videos and edit them?
Thanks! I have an NVIDIA graphics card so I use Nvidia Shadowplay to gather all of my gameplay footage. To speed up the footage gathering process, all footage from my videos are either Turbo in Dota or Quickplay in League. People don't come to this channel for high level gameplay nor skills analysis. They just need something to look at while I yap.
For editing, I use Davinci Resolve, which is an absolute gem. It is a professional-grade video editing software that is available entirely for free on the internet. It's intuitive enough to use, but there are some video tutorials on UA-cam that can help.
Good luck!
Thanks I appreciate it👍
Felt that jungle rant in my soul lmao
It is sad that in theory while the jungle role seems so fun to play (being a role with very high agency and many variable options to approach the game) it is ruined by the same thing that makes it great. With League being a game wherein one small mistake easily snowballs into massive enemy leads, junglers are given the biggest tax to do all the heavy decision-making - and when decision making in a strategy game is more of an art than a science - it's so easy to attribute all blame to the poor junglers.
As a person who plays Jungle quite a bit, this is making me wanna try Pos 4 despite never playing Dota 2 before, I'd love to be loved-
Interesting opinion on the goat jungler. I've always thought it was Benji. Probably displaying when I was most invested in league by that comment, but those skt teams were so good and he was critical to one of the best series ever, skt vs rox tigers. Does show that junglers get the blame, given blank was flamed enough to get subbed out for Benji.
Edit: As an aside, I think leagues jungle role might have the most iterations for a role. Smite has changed a lot over the years, and previously it scaled with level, could (sometimes) target champs, and gave random buffs depending on the camp smites. I especially loved the camp smites, as smiting wolves gave a little vision wraith that would move to spot enemies if they invaded. Smite unlocked items changed a lot over the years, and neutrals have changed as well. Early season drakes were almost entirely about gold, and rift herald didnt exist until 2016 and void grubs until this year. Jungling was very hard for most champs for most of league. 6 camp clear was basically a death sentence for most of the roster, and it was not uncommon to have to 3 camp and then back. Compared to early seasons jungle items are so overtuned, although not relative to the power creep of other roles and items.
To put it simply. League has a roaming ganking jungler while Dota has a roaming ganking laner. They are both position 4 roles with the same jobs. League is on the carry side while Dota focus on the support. Support as in placing vision or calling plays.
Dota is more flexible with the pos4 role because you can have “greedy supports” aka carry heroes (champions) that need money in the pos4 role. Yet it’s a completely different play style which forces the player to understand power timings.
shoutout to the smite theme playing as you explained smite :) i would love a 3 way comparison between all 3 games
I don't know how you manage to play both games and maintain sanity.
On the Drake Bell comment. He chatted with a fan (nothing sexual) and he didn't know her age, once he found out her age he cut all contact, she kept stalking him at shows and fan meetings (he didn't know this was that "fan") and later accused him of sexual misconduct, this was proven false in court but he pleaded guilty to the fact he had contact with her (attempted child endangerment).
That's the neat part--you don't.
Also, thanks for shedding some light on the Drake Bell joke. I'm not sure exactly what's true anymore (such is life in the 2020s) because there's so much misinfo that I spent an embarrassing amount of time doing research on a throwaway gag. From what I saw, he did sext the girl and then backed off when he learned her age, and he'll have that over Aubrey any day.
Don't worry I understand. It was one of my ackchyually moments. Didn't think you'd pay much attention to it since you said allegedly.
Anyhow it's crazy how the media would spread misinformation about something so serious...
As long as my jungle tries to at least contest neutral objectives I’m chilling I’m only gonna spam ping if they afk jungle the entire game
7:28 Keen Optic. Youll be missed. 😢
12:30 Smite MOBA Main Menu music I noticed haha. Nice touch.
I remember some specific meta where you could play heroes as jungler in dota 2.
As you explained those strats where good because it allow your p4 to have quick blink plus boots and a small item.
I guess you can still do that with Axe or Lifestealer those days but it's not really effectiv.
It doesnt matter if people hate my role. They don't play it. I play my role and all that matter is that I fucking love it.
Hell yeah! Another great video.
Part of the reason why i hate playing LoL is that if i get autofilled as jungler i might as well just stand AFK, while the only place where i feel like i'm bad in dota is middle.
I've been playing pos4 ever since the concept of "pos 1-5" was invented and i have never seen myself as a jungle.
A video I would love to see for you is about this phenomenon: "maining" a hero/champion
As a dota player who very rarely plays league, this is a term I see in league all the time. People often have a "main" hero that they play almost exclusively. This is not the case at all in dota. Being a one trick or "maining" a hero just isn't a thing, or at least the number of people who do it is vanishingly rare.
DotA players are likely to have a role that they "main", (though can usually play 1-2 other roles as well) but within that role, their hero pool is considerably bigger than I typically see from League players.
Do you have any insight on why this is? It's always something I've found a bit weird and another key difference between the two games.
My take is that league is very into the fantasy of playing your champion. They make champions with flashy combos, they delete active items because 'they distract people from the champions' main skillsets' or something. And they make their champions 'real characters'. They have pretty art (base and skins), lore, random quirks, yada yada. Like aurora being autistic for... some reason. And most importantly, they are conventionally pleasing to the eye.
Thus the 'x-main' syndrome came to be. Some people don't really like playing summoners rift all that much. Maybe they dont even like the role they are playing. But they play the champ they play because they resonate with its playstyles, its combos - its 'champion fantasies', if you will. Heck sometimes they arent even into the kit that much, they just like playing ahri or gwen because they like their designs.
(This also leads to another rabbit hole on why the league community is so divided. The mains hate each other. The roles hate each other. Blah blah.)
Meanwhile in dota, you don't just play your hero, you have to play the game. Since the game isn't 90% laning stage, you need to play the map, AKA play dota a lot more. Since you don't lane against your own role, and again laning doesnt last long, you actually need to know what the other roles do, and what the heroes in that role do. And what better way to learn that than to play that role for yourself? And the game forces you to play some games in both core and support roles anyways. Bam, no maining culture.
I don't think maining is about playing one hero exclusively, especially since in ranked mode your champion might get banned or picked by someone else. It just means whoever you enjoy most playing at any given time.
@@absolutelynotadog7498 You know, I feel like you THINK you have some point here, but you kinda don't.
"My take is that league is very into the fantasy of playing your champion."
You mean, just like every character-focused game ever? Because you can say the same thing about most other MOBAs, fighting games, hero shooters, PvE coop games, etc.
"They make champions with flashy combos"
Mate, Dota 2 has Invoker, a character whose entire playstyle revolves around flashy combos and his story is all about him being an arrogant show-off. That's not to mention heroes like Earth Spirit, Storm Spirit, Brewmaster, etc.
"they delete active items because 'they distract people from the champions' main skillsets' or something."
I looked around the wiki for Lol and there are still plenty of active items listed there. Granted I haven't Lol in a very long time so maybe there used to be more.
"And they make their champions 'real characters'."
Again, just like every character-focused game ever, because it's just good design that can massively help a game stand out. For example, take Valve's other game with a 2: Team Fortress. TF 2 was the first (or at least one of the first) class-based shooters that made its classes into actual characters, first by releasing their "Meet the..." series, and later by also having additional stories in the universe. And they were so successful, that despite being more than 17 years old at this point, TF 2 still has an enduring place in gaming culture.
It's not just video games either. Warhammer, both Fantasy/AoS and 40k, has an entire plethora of larger than life characters to make the setting more compelling. Even the Necrons, a faction whose entire shtick is that they were stripped of emotions and memories have a caveat that the most powerful Necrons retained their personality and intellect. Because Games Workshop understands that most players want their army leader to be an actual character rather than just "random Necron #7362483".
And yes, Dota 2 has also tried to make its heroes into 'real characters'. From the simple fact that heroes have some excellent voice acting (which is honestly underappreciated) and have specific voiceline interactions with certain other heroes, to the fact that they made an animated show in the universe. The fact that players aren't very invested in them and their world means that they have failed so far. Ironic, considering that TF 2, a game Valve has all but abandoned at this point, still has more cultural recognition than Dota 2 and Lol.
"They have pretty art (base and skins),"
Again, kind of important in games where different characters are a major focus. Which is why Valve has also made a ton of skins for characters in Dota 2.
"lore,"
Mate, I want you to go to Dota 2's official website and click on the "Heroes" tab, then select any hero. Look at the section under the hero's name that describes their origin story and motivations. Any idea what we usually call that?
"random quirks, yada yada. Like aurora being autistic for... some reason."
Does there need to be a specific reason for a character to have any particular trait? Also, I like how you imply that Dota 2, a game with a dragon speaking in iambic pentameter, a goblin with a comical fear of trees, and a guy who just really hates mages aren't random quirks. Not to mention the lightning-based guy making electricity puns and the flame-based gal making fire puns.
"Meanwhile in dota, you don't just play your hero, you have to play the game. "
The entire cornerstone of the MOBA genre is that which character you play as is a fundamental part of the gameplay. Playing a particular character IS playing the game, whether Lol or Dota, or Smite etc. Do you want to tell me that playing different heroes does not fundamentally change how you approach the game? Do you play Zeus and Huskarl the exact same way? Do you buy Daedalus on Kotl because it was great on Sniper? Do you blink into the middle of the enemy team as Drow because" it worked out well when I was playing Tidehunter"?
Things like laning or roaming and other game objectives are just a blank canvas by themselves, the main draw is always how different characters interact with those game mechanics. Like sure, there's probably at least ONE person who started playing Dota 2 specifically because they wanted to kill Roshan or something like that. But I'd say that for the vast majority the main appeal were meme videos by guys like TryMike4Instance or various highlights that showcase the strengths of specific heroes.
@tomshraderd4915 Yo, I think we aren't necessarily disagreeing with each other here. The thing is, our community and the league community just seem to have extremely different views on game mechanics. They care a lot more about the 'presentation'/marketing than we do. We just want to play the game, play dota.
Yeah we do have world building, we do have lots of skins... but when you look at how league does it, they have novels, they have animated series (an extremely good one), music videos, trailers, yada yada. Their community actually whines when a trailer 'sucks' or when a champion (especially their main) doesn't get a music theme. Meanwhile I have the feeling the dota playerbase just care... less. Or rather, there are fewer people who cares. I think the crownfall stuff, especially the act 2 story was really cool, but I barely see anyone talking about it. Or maybe they did but the topic sunk into obscurity. Again, the dota players just want to play dota, just like in the warcraft 3 days. We don't need music videos or hot waifus to hype us into queueing all pick.
And by no means am I saying that lol champions are more unique or I prefer LoL's approach. It's more like Riot is trying harder to 'brute force' that diversity. Like the aurora example. Timbersaw hates trees, it is his defining trait and yeah that is funny, very unique, and makes a lot of sense considering what his skills do. Meanwhile, Aurora being autistic feels pretty slapped on. She is a rabbit, dimension-jumping witch girl. Okay, cool...? Then riot just said 'she's also autistic btw' and there doesn't seem to be any further context. Obviously has nothing to do with her gameplay, her voice lines are pretty generic so nothing there. It's just, shall I say, inorganic.
And yeah... a lot of points I made is just what a lot of games have. Yeah, if your games have characters then you will want to flesh them out, of course. But when you look at league, and compare it to dota, you'll see that riot cares a lot more about it, and so does the playerbase. Valve is doing the same currently (massive kudos for crownfall) but compared to riot they are still behind. (Tbf it's kinda hard to beat them at this bc riot literally makes shits like social media accounts to promote their 'music bands of LoL champions' and collaborate with real musicians to make music videos for said made-up band. They try REALLY hard.) And most importantly, dota players don't care as much. We just want to play dota, get mmr and maybe buy pretty pixels. Many just don't give a damn about nightstalker's race being massacred by kotl or something.
@@tomshraderd4915 Also, about some of my points that I made earlier,
- Yes, people in league circles do think active items reduce champion uniqueness. A rioter straight up said it. Every once in a while people ask for things like zhonyas to be removed when to us it's a dollar store euls. Crazy right? Recently I've talked with a newbie from league, they asked 'so if dota has all these active items, how can characters be unique, if I can just buy a stun, a hex, a blink on everyone?' I replied 'well, by making the spells EVEN stronger' which made him even more confused. Their world is just very different from us.
- Which is exactly my next point. To me, dota heroes' uniqueness are way more interesting than league champions. Dota heroes' uniqueness mostly lies in how they approach the game, from a macro standpoint. Even in the same role, sven and ck and jugg, all being 'melee right click carry' but they all have different plans. League champions are unique in the sense that fighting game characters are unique. They have 'movesets' with different shaped skillshots, sometimes different minigames. But when you look at the big picture, a lot of champions have the same macro plan. It's why they use lingos like assassins, juggernaut, enchanters etc. These characters practically does the same thing. But sometimes just having different movesets is enough! Again, their prefereences are just different. If they haven't played dota yet, they would think sven and ck are the same because they are both 'juggernauts' with a point and click stun.
ah, remember back in the day when people used to pick legion commander, go jungle, grab level 6 and blink, and have +1000 permanent damage by minute 35?
me neither, cause they always died to camps. i don't miss the old jungling dota days, either ursa dying to roshan minute 5 cause they got bashed one too many times, bloodseeker that rushed euls scepter to cancel TP but had no damage while ganking or my favourite, the Nature's prophet that disappeared in the jungle for 25 minutes, and in then makes the game last 3 hours because the enemy can't leave their base and NP is the only one with any items, for league players who don't know, NP has a global teleport with 20 seconds cooldown (0 seconds with the new tree i'm not mistaken) and that kind of ganking power would be great, but back then they'd never use it!
I love your choice of music
Civ 6 got some real bangers
Just wanna comment bc my two favorite DotA Pos 4's weren't mentioned. Windranger and Bounty Hunter are quite possibly the best chaos causers imo; Windranger literally needs a javeline, a null talisman, some form of boot (usually phase), and a forcestaff for a grand total of 5100 gold to be a menace during any point in the game threatening solo kills on supports constantly. On the other side of things Bonuty Hunter's abilities allow him to generate gold off of harassing and assisting kills on enemies with such efficiency that you can legitimately break 600gpm without ever hitting a creep or getting a kill yourself.
That's why I only play carry jungler in League.
Stress free and they can only blame themselves as they can't expect Master Yi to have a proper gank. Idgaf if I lose, at least I have my fun. 🤣
Well team still flames you to the worst and If you dare Go 0/3 on yi your litterly imidiatly Struck by ff 15 we loss anyway and one or 2 Dude insta give up hope
LOL i just discoverd your channel and I love it. My brother plays dota and dabbled in league for a year with me, and I play league. I'm too pussy to play dota it looks too compilcated. Also your Drake diss took me out. And lastly was your outro playing "O Canada" LOLOL
Safety bubble, and the old circlet are so OP they have more impact than most tier 5 items
Jungler's role be like:
Carrying or Ganking or become the biggest scapegoat from your team
They play the strongest role in the game. If they're not carrying, then they're griefing.
Jungle used to be way more chill before Riot's attempts to make game solve itself through heralds, plating and dragon stacking.
video : Dota and League the music: SMITE!!!
to solve jungle remove smite and replace it with a different spell that handles neutrals.
My reason for that is because teams perspective is that you are the only player that can nuke key obj. and you still cannot get it. Of course in solo Queue they dont see it in that way. They see it as, you chose responsibility so handle it in high accuracy.
Because if mid feeds they think they can still come back as long as the "jungler gets the Drakes or Nashor" disregarding their lack of skills in their own role.
I am a top main and I will leave my lane in favor of a jungle OBJ but if we end up getting cucked by the opposing team its hard not to be disappointed to the jungler because you invested time and risk being gapped on your lane and it went to Vayne.
So I think removing smite in favor of a more balanced spell is better
At 9:02 Ace... how did you path to get into the enemy blue buff?
Did they not ward the river? Did you path topside Bush into enemy blue? I like that play because even if you die or give jg info that you're ganking lvl 2 which means they can steal your buff and maybe greed for gromp and leave unless botlane rotates but you were on their blue so you gain an advantage and only lose one camp at most if botlane doesn't respond. That's alotta value!
The best part of jungle is that every other role usually has no idea what it is you actually do
redbuff slows also very important for junglers don't forget it people
i love jungler champions but i hated the role
when i watch these as a dota player, it makes me like dota even more, cause i cant tell what the fuck is going on in the league gameplay, the visual clarity in league sucks, either that or im just too used to dota
I was playing this video, when I was cleaning my mother's house and she heard it through my speaker. Had her cracking up.
the smite doesnt evolve on its own, you need a special starting item for that, and the pets come from the item too
Dota 2 Terror blade Jungler went out for a milk and missing for 5 years,
Came out buff and tanky to end the game
holyshit i didnt even realize it. not to mention the old pos4 players like aui2k, EGM, cr1t, zai(ti5)
Watching this as i am having autofilled jungler
I’ve played only jungle since I started a few days ago in league, I will never play anything else. ❤
As a pos 4 you should know the term "yapzoring the lane"
At around 12:30 minutes
That is the SMITE main menu music. Man I wish HiRez took better care of that game.
I played pos 3 4 and 5 All I'll say is that pos 4 is the most fun role in the game since I used to only play 5 transitioning to 4 having more gold to play with than back in the days where brown boots by 25 was the standard
also if you play pos 3 your a menance to society
The problem in league is simple to see, but complex to solve. It's an extremely overloaded role, like no other in the game. But to solve it, they have to restructure the whole game.
I tried DotA before, all I remember is at some point my monkey brain took over and I just ran the courier down mid repeatedly
well that explain why i enjoy pos4 and hated jg soo much, because for me pos4 its much more relax and more focus on the macro game, yes you still have the responsibility to put vision,gank and objective but at least your job its try your best to make the team work. While jungle felt like im trying to carry the team with everything i got alone, try to get the objective alone, try to get drake and baron alone, try to get my own kill so i can make all the item for winning the game cause none know how to carry. But yea both of them is really far different it felt playing a carry when playing jungle while pos4 felt more like support role but also a hybrid carry
Why are teammates so toxic in these games? Most people I talk to hate the hate, and yet it's such a huge problem.
Ramus is there to stun. He's there to shutdown and always huntdown the ADC.
Fun fact if jungle doesn’t gank each lane to get them fed, get all jungle camps including all objs… he’s just ask likely to lose if he had all of it
I don't play Dota only Lol. But from your explanations role 4 seems closer to a roam-heavy support than a jungler.
lol after reading the title at first you were talking about the old jungle role in dota. no one loves that LC going straight to jungle back in the day except LC himself.
Thats a pretty long video to say "jg diff"
drake catching strays💀💀
Flash is not a blink dagger, it is a force staff without stats