It was actually the riders.. you have to actually look into it rather than make a talking head video about it - T.V. INTERVIEW WITH REPORTER Reporter: Good morning Valentino. Rossi: Good morning. It's a little early for me though, but I am glad to be here with you. Reporter: Since traction control systems have been allowed to be used in MotoGP there has been a heated debate over whether or not they are a good addition or bad. We brought you here today to see what your opinion is on the topic, because unlike many of the racers today you have been racing in MotoGP before this technology came into motorcycle racing. First, I would like know if you like having traction control on your motorcycle? Rossi: Having the traction control system makes riding the motorcycle much easier, and allows me to open the throttle more rapidly without launching me into a highside. Unfortunately, it takes away from the rider's natural ability and feel for the motorcycle, and makes it easier for people to compete with those who they couldn't before having this rider aide. It is basically cheating. Reporter: What do you mean it allows more people to compete with those who couldn't before traction control came out? Rossi: "There are many different things that affect traction. Learning to manage them all might sound overwhelming at first" (Parks 16), but once you have learned how traction is affected and can be controlled by the rider it makes racing much more exciting. When you have traction control on a motorcycle you can set it up in many different ways, and if you're not as skilled as others you can increase how much the traction control takes over, and this allows some of the rookies and other slower racers to catch up because they are not going to make as many mistakes as they would if they did not have the traction control system. Reporter: Why do you think MotoGP has allowed traction control systems? Rossi: Well bottom line is that it provides safety to the riders which is above all the most important thing. Since traction control systems have been introduced there has been about a 60% decrease in high side crashes per year, which results in less injuries and worst of all things death. So, having these systems on these high powered machines is very important. Also, many of the manufacturers are using the knowledge that they get from testing with us and use the engineering and knowledge to put on their public consumer products to give their customers the most advanced technology to date in order to keep them happy. Reporter: "Imagine you could invent a new motorcycle racing championship, what would your rules be (Cope)?" Rossi: "Firstly, the right number of competitors is 24 or 26. At the moment, I would keep the four-stroke. It is true that everyone likes the 500cc 2-stroke but the world now unfortunately goes with the four-stroke. I believe the correct displacement is 1000cc, not 800cc with a limit of 16,000 to 17,000 rpm, not 19,000 as it is right now, so that the bikes cannot reach 220mph. In my opinion, 195 mph is sufficient. Then, I would remove a lot of electronics and many tricks that help guiding the bike. It might take a little traction control, a little help, because the bikes would be powerful, but I would like a quarter of electronics we use now. You know, we can now set the power, gas and traction control at every corner, for each gear. The bike knows exactly where it is on track. When taking advantage of the electronics, you can adapt it so that it takes every curve perfectly. I would keep the traction control but it should be fixed, not adaptable to any type of curve.And no anti-surge control, no control on the brakes: so we would see beautiful overtakes, large drifts in the braking zone and good battles during the races. For me, the championship would be better that way (Cope)." Reporter: Thank you so much for your time today Valentino. Have a great day. Rossi: You are welcome, and thank you for having me.
The problem is that it costs nearly as much to manufacture a good 600 as a a 1000cc bike. BMW had this situation in the 90's with their K75 compared to the K100. The K100 only cost $35 more at the manufacturing stage to produce and this made the K75 too expensive for the market compared to the K100. BMW never intended to produce a 600cc version of the S1000rr for that very reason.
Thats the way it ended up, but it never used to be that way, the Japanese 600s used to be pretty basic compared to 750s and litre bikes, steel frames, RWU forks plus other cost saving measures helped keep the price down, once they started getting ally frames, USD forks radial brakes, Fuel injection the price gap stated to close. The 400s that were sold in Japan and some markets were actually more trick than the 600s, my RVF400 made the same year CBR600 look bum basic and dull by comparison.😃
Manufacturing costs might be similar but insurance to the consumer certainly isn't. Hard for me to justify unloading all that money for 200hp when 100hp is already overkill for the roads anyway.
When asked about customer input in the development of the Ford Model T, Henry Ford famously said, "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."
I would think that the electronics are quite cheap part of bikes. You already have throttle-by-wire and abs on all bikes and rest of the sensors and cpu are same level as $100 phone has. Pumping up the power from 170ish to 210+ is probably way more expensive. That been said I would say that tc is pretty pointless for most of the riders. With modern tires you have to be going quite hard even with the liter bikes on track to start to actually need to cut any power. For me having good tc got me back into track riding. I used to ride 2005 zx-10r and with that you had to ride at least couple times a month to be able to even keep up with the bike. Take a too long pause from riding at it took couple days to get back in to control of the bike. Now with 2021 S1000RR you can just ride with your street tires on the track after winter and find your self going really fast after just couple laps and with out constant fear of dying :D But also that been said I sold that bike and got 690 smc r, liter bikes are just too boring on streets.
@@bloodspartan300 There is no reason why they wouldn't use same sensors and other parts as all the phone manufacturers use. So they can take benefit from the same scale.
@@bloodspartan300 This is partly true. Motorcycle electronics is only build maybe 100000 pieces for a series of electronics (used in different motorcycles). Which doesn't have the huge scaling effect of mobile phones, but still quite some scaling effects. On the other hand motorcycle electronics doesn't need to be so incredibly miniaturized which makes production and development quite a bit cheaper.
Another big reason for the downfall of 600cc Sportbikes is in my opinion the change for the a2 license where you can restrict a bike with a maximum of 70kw to the allowed limit of 35kw.
what do you mean? here, people ride more 600cc just because of that. i myself too ride an mt07 (55kw, but 35 in papers) because of that. everyone gets the bike they want, limit them to 35kw, do the technical inspection and documentation and after that bring them back to stock. and now you “legally” ride a 35kW+ bike with just an A2 license. been riding like that since I was 19, otherwise would have to wait until 24 or have the A2 license for 2+yrs I think (now that i can get my full A I just cant be asked since I can ride with my A2). and yeah, no police nor the guys at techical inspection that you do every year check whether you removed the restrictors.
Actually Suzuki dropped the GSX-R 1000 in EU. The only sport models I see advertised are the Hayabusa and the 125... nothing in between. Kudos to Kawasaki for reviving the ZX-6R.
Michael Neeves from MCN said that when he visited suzuki factory, all the bikes were hidden away in some tiny corner in some random warehouse. Suzuki as a company do not care at all for bikes anymore.
@@anabolic8097 Yep, all the old guard, that really cared about bikes have gone from the company. I remember a guy from Suzuki saying that the GSX-R750 was a historic model for Suzuki and that it would never be dropped from the lineup due its significance, well they still might sell it (in some markets) but it hasn't had a single update since 2011, bar graphics.
I mostly agree, not because I'm a snob, but because rider aids help brave idiots go faster, not safer. People are crashing faster than what their skill alone would have allowed them. I suspect that's the reason why, with all the advances in rider safety, the average death toll from accidents hasn't gone down from the 70's! It's ridiculous!
my bmw R100 (980cc) didn't need to be tamed, it just ran smoooooth as butter on a hot day... longest single day was 600 miles, and I could do 110mph without realizing it. Soften the suspension a bit, and I'd use the cylinder heads as indicator I was leaned over enough! :D
@stewart8127 that was mostly in humor, as it had what 40hp, maybe, on a good day. The point of the old Supersport japanese 600, now the "liter bike" is EXACTLY to see how much HP they can put between your legs. For other such excitement, go jump dirt bikes, go take a $11,000 mountain bike downhill... Etc
Motorcycles without electronics are better. Im 25 and i learned to ride carburayed bikes they dont have computer chips all over and theyre reliable even after 30 years
Like you said, we would get here anyway, but not that fast. BMW just speeded things up. If I was BMW I would do the same, because in market you have to be opportunistic
I´d argue that electronics help riders to improve faster. They create a safety buffer which allows you to safely reach the limit tyres and motorcylce with a much lower chance of a crash. You can test how much brake or throttle you can apply in a few minutes. Without TC/ABS I´d argue it would take years to gain that knowledge. According to Keith Code from the California Superbike school crash rate dropped by 40% once they moved from "analog" 600ccs to S1000RR. They always ride with them enabled. Personally I really like the TC on the MT-09. There´s literally no intrusion for fast street riding. You really only need to turn it off if you want to to clutch up wheelies (power wheelies work just fine with TC enabled). What exactly are your complains here?
he has no complains here because while he blames BMW for the lack of 600cc HE is litteraly the dumb fuck that is the reason for that not BMW. like watch his videos about how he got a KTM 390 and how that's all the bike you need.... who is really trashing the 600cc market the ones not even in the 600cc market or the dude that pedals the stereotype of 600cc being to dangerous and that you should get something smaller instead. it's people like this guy and feminism that has made men more scared to ride bikes and made people to scared to get a 600cc bike because every idiot tells them they are to dangerous when in reality the 600cc class was literally made as a safer option to the 1000cc so new riders could ride it without the bike just throwing them off when they give a little to much throttle in the corner. and yeah the electronics help. even the god damn Rain mode is still more powerful than liter bikes use to be att full power. analog bikes are fun when they are very simple and slow but when you actually want to go fast fast you want them electronics. specially the new shit. a fucking drift assist electronic is extremely useful not only to save your ass and to learn sliding but also as it literally saves you on tires even if you don't drift it meaning more track day laps per tire. also what is the nr1 complain people have about dailying a sport bike? yeah the back pain on long trips. boom BMW has cruise control so you can just throw that shit on and have a stretch. no need to spend long trips on the highway hunched over when you can sitt straight and stretch your back a little while the cruise control maintains your speed.
It was only a matter of time until a manufacturer would introduce this much electronics into their brand spanking new bike. Turns out it was BMW. Could have been any other manufacturer (maybe not Japanese first thought).
let's be honest it could have ben BMW or Ducati. i don't think any other manufacturer would take the first step like that. but electronics are not bad like even the rain mode on a modern bmw is more powerfull than what a liter bike use to be att full power. it helps people be better and safer riders and helps people learn because now you can kind of try shit without worrying to much about fucking up. like the new drift assist electronic. it's not like the bike goes in to auto pilot and your inputs no longer do shit like you still have to do shit and that kind of electronic just allows you to get comfortable with actually drifting in corners so then next time you jump on a bike without it you kind of know what you are doing. and the track settings ABS and shit brakes 1000x better than any human could ever do. not better on the street settings but on full track settings that ABS and shit will help you brake much better than you can without it.
This is what KTM kinda did in India. They launched a new 390 Adventure calling it the 390Adventure X without any of the fancy electronics except for switchable ABS at about 700 dollars cheaper. And enthusiasts seem to prefer this model as there are lesser electronics that can fail and the TC was a mess on the standard model. It would come back on every time you stall. Now in the X, there is no TC to interfere. Smart move.
Well but TC on a 390 is utter nonsense anyways. Maybe where you live the road surfaces are not marvellous so maybe in tthat scenario it can make some sense, but generally speaking I don't think a 390 could ever need TC. I have TC on my Trident 660, that makes double the power of a 390, and it hardly ever comes into action. Probably only in rainy conditions.
@@gabrielegrimaldi5026 yeah, roads are not the best in India. And the TC is more intrusive than useful. The cornering ABS is however an important safety feature I believe that the Adv 390X lacks. But the price difference is substantial
The biggest problem with a reliance on electronics is what happens as the vehicle ages. There are so many future fail-points. As the bike gets worn, these extra systems will fail and be impossible to ride without. Rendering bikes a write-off when expensive systems go down. This has been happening with cars for a while now. Whole cars being scrapped because the engine management system is too complex or too expensive to maintain and replace. About ten years ago I threw away a Peugeot 406 because it wouldn’t get out of ‘limp home mode’. After spending a couple of thousand chasing the problem, it still didn’t work and wasn’t worth bothering with. I drive a 2007 Mercedes Vito van for work and that has no key, just a chip that is inserted into the dash to start it. The link from the chip to the immobiliser failed two years ago and cost AU$1200 to replace the entire unit and key-fob. And the silly thing does nothing that a $2 key doesn’t do. Bikes tend to age slower because of lower km per year. But I expect to have issues with the ABS on my 2011 FZ8 soon enough. I dread having a more electronically sophisticated bike. Every one of the advances systems can fail. They will all fail eventually. And some may cost more than the bike is worth. In some ways, this isn’t an advancement when it shortens the effective life of a bike. Especially a bike that someone like me may buy and want to ride on the road for years to come. And honestly I don’t need any of these systems. I don’t ride on the track and never redline any of my bikes. I’d buy the basic version of any bike on offer.
it just creates a huge market for mechanics and software developers who can create non-dealer diagnostic software to troubleshoot motorcycle electronics so riders can just do an email download for updates quickly/easily.
For that exact reason i ride Kawasaki zzr1100, it's a powerful machine with 146hp and pure raw power, and if the engine fails I either sell it for parts and get more than I paid for it or if I'm too far from home I'll set it on fire 😂
@@LeontheKiller11 Set it on fire?! That's very rude towards the poor bike. That's no way to say thank you for all the good times you rolled together!!! :P
Sport bikes peaked in the mid 2000s K5 GSXR CBR954 (still lighter than the current fireblade and better looking in my opinion) F4i 636 RC51 And many more Cable operated throttle Stupid reliable Resonably priced More relaxed ergonomics for street riding.
What should be more concerning is how manufactures are stealthy killing independent garages and forcing people to take their bikes back to dealerships just for a plug in! For example kawasaki if you go past the service light by a certain mileage you have to take it to kawasaki because they are only ones who have the software to plug in and remove it
Dude, tell me about it... A day ago I was messing about with ABS in 2018 Burgman 650. Owners manual was like "contact service". Service manual not available to download (I didn't feel like spending money to fix one issue on not my bike) so I had to call stealership and ask them "is there any self-diagnosis mode for ABS so it will flash (or whatever) error code?" They said no the second I finished my sentence. I found dead rear sensor the old fanshioned way of digging through those goddamn plastics looking for a plug and checking if there is any continuity.
@@marcos.1771you should really read things/think about it before hitting the keyboard but il give you the benefit of the doubt. like YOU said the dealership! What about people who dont want to pay silly dealership money and instead prefer togo to independent garages. Manufacturers are making it harder for independent garages to work on their bikes due to only supplying dealerships with the specific tools/software etc
What kills me is how nonchalant all these newer riders are saying that someone's bike only makes 200+ horsepower because of the rider aids. They clearly never ridden a 165 wheel horsepower rocket with no rider aid, and have half the skill a rider 15 years ago needed to ride these bikes fast.
What it has done is tricked riders into thinking they are better than they actually are. Where I live just about once a week from April till October a rider is killed. 95% of the time " Speed" was the main factor.
Now I actually wonder if it's *cheaper* to have the safety features, for two reasons. So, for starters, for Europe, you already have most of the hardware you need, and in practice you have *all* of the hardware you need (if you want the mandatory ABS to be *good* ) - wheel speed sensors and an IMU. You also have a lot of electronic control over the engine's behavior, which is needed thanks to modern emissions requirements. Now, you could leave that ABS unit off of bikes for markets that don't mandate it, but you're already mass-producing it for Europe, so it doesn't cost much. That doesn't make it *cheaper* than not having it, but it makes it less expensive to have it. ...but then there's product liability. When someone dies because they grabbed a fistful of throttle inappropriately and got yeeted into space, there's a potential lawsuit that the manufacturer has to defend or settle. If your customer doesn't get yeeted into space as a result of grabbing a fistful of throttle inappropriately, there's no wrongful death suit in the first place.
Before the S1000RR, if you even glanced at a super bike, even sideways...even if it was in the showroom window! it would simultaneously throw you over the high side, lock the front wheel and tuck, and hoist the front wheel so hard, the clocks would headbutt you!! How we rode them at all without dying instantly is beyond me. 😏🤭😆🤣🤣
Which is why there are so many superbike riders getting into crashes. They never needed the years it takes to build up their riding skills. New riders just don't want to learn. Just my 2 cents, been riding for 30 years.
Abs is simply a computer correcting a low iq braking strategy for people who dont know how to emergency brake to the most effectiveness. To some degree uts useful in a motorcycle because front wheel abs could save a lot of idiots lives who dont realise locking uo your front wheel witu a fist full of brake max strength all at once is actually how you brake a motorcycle in a long distance and its also how you crash and die. The oroble. Is you give a bunch of begginers abs and they barely know what it even is and they will hrsb a fist full of brake and in 1980 you wouldve crash your bike but in 2023 your abs will unlock your brakes so they spin and the pads csn bute down more again and keeo slowing you down. Its actually a slow way to stop and dangerous because you dont want to rely on a system that can fail which purpose was for rare over braking situations that lock the wheel up, and cause your bike to crash and you die. Its not the fastest way to stop. Its imbetween stopping correctly and locking your wheels up enturely and sliding like back in the 1980s. The solution is simple. Abs is a crutch. Maybe here or there its worth it but actually for people who know what theyre doing and follow the speed limits, abs us basucally useless. Its a nice feature to have but it gets in the way in other ways and the need for it is mitigated by actually knowing how to stop a motorcycle as fast as possible with as much brske pressure as possible without the wheel lockingnuo and all so abs that you paid for never even comes on. Then its just soley in the way. When i took msf course they taught us how to stop as fast as possible without locking up the wheel on bikes that didnt have abs. Thus was when i was about 18. Im 25 now and most motorcycles still dont have abs or theyll have them as options. To me it doesnt matter but it also depends on the budget. If its a beater budget bike im not going to spring for many upgrades. Abs is useless for me because you dont ride your motorcycle in bad conditions i learned that with enough close calls. Abs is nice but really what people should be doing is taking their bike out to ab empty lot and speeding up snd gradually gradually increasing their braking pressure until its engrained in your muscle memory so when you have to emergency brake its almost instinctual how tightly you grab onto the brake to stop as fast as pissible without your wheels locking up. For me this was key to lesrning esrly because motorcycles without computer systems are much more affordable in the long run and therr has been a couole situations where if i didnt knows how to brake properly and i just relied on abs i wouldve actually gone off a cliff one time that was halfway through a turn. As well as there is sometimes sudden stopping. You cant just grab a fist full of brake even if you have abs or you wont stop youll actually keep going and hit whatever your braking to not hit. You have to ease into your motorcycles brakes. You can squeeze a good strength if you ease into it with increasing strength as opposed to grabbing a fist full and relying on abs that might not even be there or be in working order. If the wheel locks up without abs if you dont let go in the blink of an eye you could crash the bike. If the wheel locks you need to release brake pressure and reapply again. The front brake is sum 80% of the bikes stopping power. The rear foot brake is some odd 20ish %. So you have to apply them both at the same time without locking either up to stop the fastest. Abs should never come on. You need to he able to apply the brskes until right before the wheel locks and abs comes on to stop the fastest. Sliding isnt stopping and if abs is kicking on your sliding at least part of the time and your abs is releasing your brakes as well so its not an efficient way of stopping. Better than purely sliding though. i had a bike from the 80s in 2016 it didnt have abs or traction control. I could emergency stop it faster than people who get bikes with abs and they rely on the computer to compensate for their lack of skill and education. Abs is good but its also a risky thing. Its very improtant to know how your motorcycle is going to react. If your abs is kicking on you are braking too hard and your stop is already inefficient. You are not riding the motorcycle properly then. Its an emergency system so its supposed to stay on in the background incase you need it and the goal is that it never kicks on. I dont need abs. Its nice but i actually am not bothered at all not having it. Maybe on a 200hp superbike and lemans its useful but i dont get any wheel spin on my way to mcdonalds bro traction control is litterally useless there 😂😂😂 im the fastest stopping vehicle on the road without abs im actually worried about stopping too fast and getting rear ended more than i am concerned about not stopping fast enough because i understsnd exactly how capable a non abs motorcycle is at stopping. More capable than cars with abs. More mass is harder to slow down.
The problem is, bean counters in 2023 could *never* consider creating a motorcycle with a purposely narrowed market. The modern day c suite idiot at motorcycle companies concern is "how do we market a literbike to every demographic?" Only way to do that is to jam every bike with so many electronics that a liter feels approachable in every way except price
I ride a 1984 Honda vf750f. Gas, motor, carbs, clutch, breaks, and wheels…..dam fun ride. I think half the electronics just means there is more to go wrong over longer periods and more reasons to have to go back to the dealership because the stuff can not be fixed in your garage.
I remember when the VF750F was released, I had just started my first job, on the parts counter at a Honda Dealer, I used to know the part number for cams and cam followers of by heart, god knows we ordered enough replacements when they started self destructing. Then Honda issued all these workshop bulletins and "fixes" until finally altering the way they bored the head and cam caps. Haven't seen a (going) VF750F in years, but i do have its brother, a 86 VFR750 😀
Please send me a picture of your motorcycle. I had one and I want to add a picture to my album of all the motorcycles I’ve ever owned. If you have a great example, I would really appreciate it.
I'm just hoping that electronics become so cheap that prices start coming back down. My last supersport was a 2004 GSXR-1000. A 13k ZX-10r with electronics that I can turn off would be very acceptable but I'm not paying 20k for any motorcycle.
you should look in to how these bikes are made. razor sharp tolerances and top of the line parts. electronics isn't what makes them expensive, it's making really good bikes that does.
Old rider here, is "The Pace" still a thing? I'm the ultimate cheapskate... my current bike, a 2001 Aprilia that I picked up in the heart of Covid-mania, was $100 to purchase and roughly $2000 in parts (plus a couple months time) to revive from the dead. I've done this dozens of times, parts bins bikes that I put back together and ride... or non-runners that I do an engine swap on. The lions share of my miles on the street have been on bikes that cost under $1000, a few that were free for the taking. As for the electronics angle, more old rider attitude here... but if you never build a good foundation of riding skills, you 100% rely on those "aids", there will come a time when that bites you. Perhaps in a life ending way. But, being old, having spent years chasing the track addiction, I don't have any desire to go fast on the street. I don't ride anywhere near my limits, much less those of any kind of electronic support. I get the feeling that I will be less and less interested in new bikes as time progresses, just as I've completely lost interest in new cars. Instead, I crave the unique older options, usually on the cheap so I have more gas money and less need to trade my time for money....
I'm right there with you, I lost nearly all interest in new bikes, Ive gone back to my roots, 80s 90s early 2000s bikes, I love restoring and riding 80s 90s bikes, and have have a few early 2000s bikes as my daily rides. I get just as much enjoyment working on them as i do riding them.
Great discussion starter. It makes sense to offer the flagships editions with all the race prep AND a several less premium models. Auto manufacturers offer trim levels…likewise cycle riders can level up as their needs (and wallets) allow. 👍🏾
What is incredibly annoying these days at Bmw and Ducati is that they put aero ugly wings on street bikes to homologate their racing bikes as aeroplanes and beat Japanese bikes
This is why BSB is the best racing series in the world to watch. 160bhp without electronics on a 1000cc bike is more fun than a full TC/WC/SC 200bhp 1000. The 600 doesn't make much sense off track, a 750 is more comfortable and better on the motorway generally and are more fun to ride.
We all know that after Audi purchased Ducati at that time around 2012 that Audi was going to be the first to pack the Ducati with the same tech to revive the brand. BMW did it first and won. Back then I said to myself I would never buy a $20k+ bike and looking at today's lineup you no longer have that option besides GSXR-1K
I totally agree, i myself ride an MT 09 first model without any electronics and it s the best. Nowdays everybody is rossi right from the gett go because Electronics are baby sitting them. True riders wich grew up on a powerfull carburator bikes without any aids will dissapear will be slowly deminished, since you cannot get any faster, then perfectly calculetad PC proccesing every thousand of a second and every rev at a corner. Imagine Moto GP Without any EL... :D that would have been interesting....slower laptimes, but more skill needed.
@@SirNarax I may not be all trolls some would appreciate the challenge and feeling. As some people ride trails with two or more cylinder bikes and not light competition enduro Machines. It's about a choice but yes time moves on and older bikes wanish with older riders
@@Antivir123 I can just tell from the way you are writing this that you are not the kind of person I was describing. It is just fine to not want that stuff on your bike. It is your bike after all. I don't like when other demean others to pressure them into doing the same. Calling others crap or that the bike is 'baby sitting' them.
@@SirNarax yes, you're right. But mandatory abs is actually good thing on a road bike , TCS too ( two up loaded in rain it can IMHO help even seasoned riders.
Yeah - pity about the 600's and 750's - Lots of fun and can run the corners nicely. Bring them back with 120 to 150hp at the rear with no electronics aside from fueling. and at a reasonable price. These powered to the moon litre bikes with rider aids are a bit of a yawn. The other thing to consider is that they also fit decent sized rear tyres on powerful sports bikes which also help with handling the power. For my 1KRR 04 model I was riding 190/55, when I got my ZX10-R 14 model, I went to a 200/55 and left TC at the least interfering without me having to deal with it every time I switched the bike off. I loved the refined engine of the ZX10-R but not the electronics which I never bothered with after setting it to lest interference (could be turned off but required you to do that every time you turned the bike on = PITA). I'd love a 150hp 750 with no TC and decent rear tyre like a 190/55. Keep it relatively light and fun to ride. The supercharged R7's look like a hoot but they are a parallel twin so not quite the same beast as a inline 4 or even triple.
go buy a suzuki gixxr 750 then.... and no they should and they legally have to put electronics on them. they are not allowed to be sold without ABS for example and you want those kind of electronics. just because you are brainwashed to think full analog is 100% better don't mean it actually is. there are benefits to the electronics and if you don't like them then why the fuck are you even getting a new bike? go get a old early 2000s bike if that's what you want. it's retarded for people to want a new bike with no electronics because there are so many emissions restrictions and shit that you have to deal with so it's better to just go buy a old early 2000s bike before all the restrictions. the best 600cc bikes are from the early 2000s and no modern one will ever be as good so why be stupid and get a brand new one?
Absolutely loved my gsxr750. ring that things neck and its respectable to 1000s. Super easy to ride too. Basically bullet proof. 150 claimed so probably around 120-130 at the wheel stock. Not to mention the aftermarket parts.
It's the same in car world, at least in the US. You can no longer a buy a car with a clutch, roll down windows or fewer tech-packages, in order to buy within a budget. If all the manufactures are on board and offer only a premium model, the consumer is forced to comply. Now that many manufactures are also their own bank, they will offer you a finance rate to fit your budget, instead of a budget friendly price.
I wonder how many owners even go fast enough to trigger the safety aids? Also wonder how many low/highsides rider aids might have prevented over the years...
You don't need to go fast to see electronics helping. You need just a rainy day and a twist from your wrist to see that TCM blinking for example. Those are so finely made that you don't even see it or feel it usually. So that makes your comment silly.
@@mortaljorma69No it wont make the comment silly, because if u need the bike to help u ride it, then what's the point of "RIDING" the bike, it will be more like the bike carrying u in its back. (Like a child on mother's safe hands)🤣
Every ride for a set of twisties outside my neighborhood. Electronic aids especially traction control is just amazing, wonderful, a game-changer, because it's so good at responding instantly to a bike going into a highside state. TC makes a bike handle so smoothly out of corners, basically it's like the Giant Hand of God coming down and never letting the bike get out of shape, wiggle, buck. Even running through gravel on the throttle the TC smooths out power instantly. And riding a supersport down a gravel road is a revelation with TC. So one of the most common, or perhaps the most common, low-sides I see is the rider adds more throttle while increasing lean into the turn. TC will tell you not to do that while reducing throttle.
@@langhamp8912 If TC helps u to control the throttle, then how will u learn to control the throttle by yourself without TC?. If we rely on the electronics, how will we learn the techniques, if u ride on a bike without TC u will learn to analyze the road u r riding, u will learn to identify road hazards like gravel, oil, etc and will adapt the speed, throttle input, body inputs etc, but if TC or other electronics are helping us to do that, how will we acquire the skill?.
I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I would go the other way. I would make ABS, TCS, and IMUs mandatory on all bikes. And if i have to save up for some more months to absorb the cost, so be it. Bikes are dangerous enough on their own, and TCS has saved my skin more times than I can count.
Bikes regardless of size have dramatically lower insurance rates if they have ABS/TC. And after owning a bike with ABS/TC, I wouldn't own another bike without those two items. TC is just amazing, I wonder if riders who hate on TCS have actually ridden a liter bike with TC.
true. I never got the mentality of if you can ride you don't need electronic aids. a college of mine recently broke his leg because his front wheel locked while breaking. he was riding without an accident for 20 years. who would want to buy a car without ABS today even tho the consequences of a crash are way lower
I'm an electrician with a heavy electronic background, electronics are cheap. Company's just stitch us up when it comes to adding these features to bikes
I got an H2 SX this summer. It's honestly very easy to ride unless you're pushing it and that's mostly thanks to the electronics, not my skill. I'll admit, I'm not good enough to ride a liter bike with no electronics. That said, I disagree that any idiot can twist the throttle on these things and have electronics sort everything out. You still need to know how to ride well to be on a liter bike to begin with, it's just that you won't immediately kill yourself if you fuck up.
My GSXS1000 is the most powerful yet conversly the easiest bike I've ever owned. The electronics make it feel like a fat 600cc, it's so easy going and mellow despite its awesome for me speed.
If you want a superbike without electronics, just buy an old one. Take the money you saved, invest it in some state of the art suspension, maybe different brakes too and you're good. And I don't think superbikes without rider aids will ever come back, it's not exactly good for a manufacturers image as they want to be percieved as advanced and modern, and besides that a lot of people would kill themselves on a bike like that, which would just be bad press. Cheap, extremely powerful and unforgiving is exactly the kind of combination which sends off young and overenthusiastic riders to meet their maker. I could see it on a track only bike, but I don't know how popular that would be.
Nothing is cheap anymore. Just keep the tech and save some lives. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it; even if you think you are so good you don't need it.
A good example of sport bike but without all the useless electronics, even if it sounds crazy, is the R7, because it only has ABS and (maybe) an optional quick-shifter if you want to. Even tho it leaks power (sadly) the formula isn't wrong imo. I'd love something like the R7 (with a bit more power, at least 110hp for a street use, maybe with the CP3 engine) and very fiew electronics, I already use the bike only in summer and when it's sunny and I'm concious enough to know when I have to be cautious with the throttle so I don't send the bike on the moon. With good tires and a functioning head you're good, I have a 2003 ZX6R and I love it.
I get your point of view, and I also love Yamaha....I've owned double digits of Yamaha's and lost track at this point.....however, BMW isn't to blame for Japanese manufacturers doing what they always do....make a product and then not touch or update it in any significant way for far too long. The S1kRR is a sweetheart of a bike.
The reason 600s died is because people stopped buying them. If everybody would love them as much elas they cry about it on the internet, you should have put your money where your mouth is and purchased one. This is the ultimate decision factor for the manufactures. I personally think 600s only have an advantage on the track, where weight and lower power actually help you learn. On the street, the ~660 twins arguably are a good replacement on everything but sound, which his heavily subjective and replaceable with a 1000cc bike no problem.
I still think that too much electronic safety aids took away the feel the riding a bike (i think so) give me 170 180 HP bike theres no where safe enough for you to use all of the power which you pay for but i do think those safety aids are important to make your mistakes a bit of more forgiving.
Love my BMW GS's...i'm on my 4th gen. I was loyal to Honda (CBR's/VFR) prior but as i aged i realized i could ride in comfort, nearly as fast around corners and didn't need the top speeds of Sportbikes thus my transition to BMW's.
This is one of the reasons I enjoy the R7 so much. Legally it has to have ABS, but otherwise it has no rider aids. If you're pushing it at the track you have to learn to control it yourself
Having a cheaper no electronic version would be great for really experienced rider. But imagine some kids never rode any other bike before but now has an option paying less for a “doper” bike, it’s gonna be a disaster
The 600 market was really hurt more by emissions regulations than anything else. Screaming high-rpm engines produce a lot of non-methane hydrocarbons at low RPM and they can't meet the new emissions regs in Europe in particular. It became less economically viable to make them than it used to be.
not really. all that can still be bypassed by engineering. the real reason is actually feminism. feminism the last 20+ years have destroyed masculinity and made the world more feminin and made the modern guys all little snowflakes meaning you just have a bunch of dumb fragile people who are to afraid to buy a 600cc as they think it's to fast and will kill them. even though the 600cc sport bike was made in the first place as a safer option to the 1000cc as they are easy to ride and don't throw you off just becuse you gave it a little to much throttle. combined with dumb people like this youtuber himself that push the narrative of ''you don't need a big bike small displacement like 390cc is more than enough'' so it's a combination of feminism teaching men to be more fragile and then idiots who push narratives of 600 being to dangerous for people and that slower bikes are more fun that has pushed the 600cc class out of favor. the 600cc can never be as powerful as it once was but it can still be made but nobody wanted the 600cc so they disappeared until now. they are actually combing back now but honestly i would rather them just cancel the 600cc class and replace it with 750cc real sport bikes like the gixxr 750. like let's be honest 600cc is just slightly to slow for people so they jump to liter bikes. and liter bikes are to powerful for the street. so the best of both worlds is a 750cc. and anyone interested in a 600cc is better of getting one from the earlier 2000s pre all the emissions and shit.
even if you are 30 years old experienced driver, you might don't know if any four wheelers or any other pull out off now where and then you screw both brakes die hard( of course only when you don't have option) than You realise that how ABS can save your life , Not TC but atleast ABS is must things, you are acting lile it reduce skill 🤦💆..
I tried bikes with electronic aids. To me, that takes out the pleasure of what I've learnt in 30 years of riding. That precision required, that human skill that makes the difference. If nobody had electronic aids, the driver would make much more of a difference and new riders would have to learn some important skills, that perhaps, not even electronics can save. Or at least give me the option to activate or deactivate certain driver aids. Looking at the figures, it seems that sportsbike have become slightly heavier as well.
I do agree 100%.There should be a cheaper "no electronic" model. I had them and sold it, as i could not switch it off. Bought a k9 with only 3 modes. (600/750/1000cc) In rain i selected 600 mode. Best idea ever.
all it takes to make one mistake. and no matter how experienced you are, you may eventually make that mistake. why not having a backup when you need the most?!
I don't get why you say they ruined sport bikes forever when they've just made them better by forcing competitors to keep up. Your opinion is pretty wack.
I don't think that an R1 CS would necessarily be cheaper for Yamaha to manufacture than an R1 with all the rider aids. The development costs are all sunk and losing a few sensors around the bike won't save much money. They'd still probably run the same ECU with just a different program on it. In fact we have an example with KTM where you buy the electronic aids by going to your dealer, spending something like £700. All they do is tell the ECU to turn them on. KTM must find it cheaper to just manufacture one bike with all the hardware and charge you if you want the feature. If BMW and the others start playing this game all that is likely to happen is an R1 CS will be the same price as the current R1 and we'll all be shafted for more money to have the lean sensitive stuff and quickshifter.
Having the electronic aids already there, but then paying for a dealer to tap a key board to turn them on is a massive ripoff and insult to the customer. Just when i thought id heard every way a dealer could shaft you i hear this.😁
In my personal opinion, a superbike should be built around racers who seek to chase lap times on the track, not an average Joe who seeks affordable performance to go fast on the straight line. While it may be lame that superbike prices are going up, I don't care much about it, and I prefer they get better and faster for racers than cheaper. I also want more MotoGP tech, like ride height devices, to make its way to superbikes. Even effortable bikes like the Mt09 offer more than enough performance for the average Joe on the street and on the track. I see no logic or reason in owning a superbike in the first place just to ride it on the street.
yeah prices are pointless to give a fuck about because why the fuck do people have to be so dumb that they need the absolute brand new bike? there are always used bikes for sale so if you really want a superbike you can get the used one to and just wait for the currently new one to become used and reduced in price. same reason as why i think GT86/BRZ are retarded. because why the fuck is buying brand new so god damn important for people when for the same price they can get something used that is actually a full blown luxury race car and cost like 70-100k when it was new. why are people so obsessed with wasting money on brand new when they can always get used. because when it comes to brz/gt86 you are still in the end 40-60k deep in to them when you actually built them to where they need to be. all these automotive youtubers and influencers are tainting peoples minds because they don't spend shit building their BRZ so kids then think they are affordable cars and want one just because it's the only thing they can afford brand new.
They will never sell something cheaper because they don't want a lot of people to ride bikes or cars They just want profit and profit can be achieved only ripping off customers. Even because people is became poorer, at least in Europe, so it would be a loss to produce more bikes for less money. If you add laws and regulations the picture is complete.
I prefer no safety aids, I don't track where they may help,but on the street they take away the fun. Even when turned off the bike still doesn't feel right.
The biggest reason why 600cc bikes died is emission controls. With the big european market shifting to Euro 6 emission laws for new bikes it is not viable to produce a 600cc which meets those standards (except Kawasaki cos they are just awesome). But this is the biggest reason why we don´t see I4 600cc screamers anymore in bikes. New Hornet: 750 paralell twin, Yamaha MT06 paralell Twin, every KTM is either a single or two cylinder, most Kawasaki Z like the 650 are twins. I think you are on to something about the rider aids making literbikes easy to ride so it makes less sense to produce them but i think it just is part of picture and the biggest contributor are the emissions regulations
The 600 class was dying well before euro 6 came into effect, the class was dropping off before even euro 5. Emissions have played their part but the the biggest reason, is people stopped buying them, they were once one the biggest sellers in the market. They stopped selling because the started getting too close price wise to bigger bikes, and they started getting expensive, because they started to get more and more race orientated. There was a time when the 600 class bikes were far more budget spec than the bigger 750s and 1000s/1100s. Then when World Super Sports became a support race for World Super Bikes, the 600s started getting more and more race orientated. (Look at an early 2000s 600 compared to, say a 2015 and later model 600, You could tour 2 up on a CBR600F4i, you'd need a chiropractor if you tried that on a CBR600RR) The once, all rounder 600s that were a stepping stone to bigger bikes, became mini super bikes with sky high redlines and race ergonomics, and became expensive to develop and the price rose to where they were close to the litre bikes. sales slowed right down.
This is why I ride a 2019 Kawasaki Z900. Only electronic thing on the bike is ABS and nothing else. No ride modes, no TCS, no EBD, no TFT screens, no bluetooth.. Just pure fun.
The TC is an amazing invention for big bikes. At 200+HP a good TC even makes a difference in Pro Racing. It augments a good rider, not make him obsolete. And it made the sport a whole lot safer. Reducing the risk of highsiders is a massive improvement for supersport riders. A good blipper will shave seconds off of laptimes. Theres a reason all manufacturers have caught on to both. And while I love riding an early 2000s bike with just electronic ignition, the modern electr. assistants are very valuable and i do not want to miss them (on track or on the road). As for the death of 600ccs, their main issue was stricter emissions regulation. Euro4/5/6 and similar require(d) a lot of R&D on the 600cc bikes that manufacrurers didnt want to afford. Thats why there are still some 600cc track bikes but no steet legal ones. - see yamaha's R6 race.
"T.V. INTERVIEW WITH REPORTER Reporter: Good morning Valentino. Rossi: Good morning. It's a little early for me though, but I am glad to be here with you. Reporter: Since traction control systems have been allowed to be used in MotoGP there has been a heated debate over whether or not they are a good addition or bad. We brought you here today to see what your opinion is on the topic, because unlike many of the racers today you have been racing in MotoGP before this technology came into motorcycle racing. First, I would like know if you like having traction control on your motorcycle? Rossi: Having the traction control system makes riding the motorcycle much easier, and allows me to open the throttle more rapidly without launching me into a highside. Unfortunately, it takes away from the rider's natural ability and feel for the motorcycle, and makes it easier for people to compete with those who they couldn't before having this rider aide. It is basically cheating. Reporter: What do you mean it allows more people to compete with those who couldn't before traction control came out? Rossi: "There are many different things that affect traction. Learning to manage them all might sound overwhelming at first" (Parks 16), but once you have learned how traction is affected and can be controlled by the rider it makes racing much more exciting. When you have traction control on a motorcycle you can set it up in many different ways, and if you're not as skilled as others you can increase how much the traction control takes over, and this allows some of the rookies and other slower racers to catch up because they are not going to make as many mistakes as they would if they did not have the traction control system. Reporter: Why do you think MotoGP has allowed traction control systems? Rossi: Well bottom line is that it provides safety to the riders which is above all the most important thing. Since traction control systems have been introduced there has been about a 60% decrease in high side crashes per year, which results in less injuries and worst of all things death. So, having these systems on these high powered machines is very important. Also, many of the manufacturers are using the knowledge that they get from testing with us and use the engineering and knowledge to put on their public consumer products to give their customers the most advanced technology to date in order to keep them happy. Reporter: "Imagine you could invent a new motorcycle racing championship, what would your rules be (Cope)?" Rossi: "Firstly, the right number of competitors is 24 or 26. At the moment, I would keep the four-stroke. It is true that everyone likes the 500cc 2-stroke but the world now unfortunately goes with the four-stroke. I believe the correct displacement is 1000cc, not 800cc with a limit of 16,000 to 17,000 rpm, not 19,000 as it is right now, so that the bikes cannot reach 220mph. In my opinion, 195 mph is sufficient. Then, I would remove a lot of electronics and many tricks that help guiding the bike. It might take a little traction control, a little help, because the bikes would be powerful, but I would like a quarter of electronics we use now. You know, we can now set the power, gas and traction control at every corner, for each gear. The bike knows exactly where it is on track. When taking advantage of the electronics, you can adapt it so that it takes every curve perfectly. I would keep the traction control but it should be fixed, not adaptable to any type of curve.And no anti-surge control, no control on the brakes: so we would see beautiful overtakes, large drifts in the braking zone and good battles during the races. For me, the championship would be better that way (Cope)." Reporter: Thank you so much for your time today Valentino. Have a great day. Rossi: You are welcome, and thank you for having me."
I don't want them safer, it contradicts the whole point in riding. I want them to wheelie and spin, but racers get slowed down so they had to homologate or introduce it even in production racing. It was all driven by racing. At a certain point the more power you create in order to go faster becomes uncontrollable by a human. Talking about price is a bit redundant as they are faster than ever so therefore should be more expensive than ever. You can still buy set of original Pilot Powers if you only want to spend $300USD for tyres. It's just progress. We could all ride 1990 FZR1000s and there'd still be the same amount of accidents as now. They need something new to sell you, that's the only thing that's going on here.
Hello, I hope you are still reading comments after 2 months of the video beeing released. I just wanted to apprechiate how calm you speak and explain ein your videos. Most youtube videos nowadays i am struggling to lower the volume without the speaker (in the video) still sounding as if he would scream at me. Because you don't scream as many others do, I really enjoy watching your videos. Thanks
It would be nice if they would perhaps just leave certain bits of technology alone for a couple decades, Bikes were plenty fast 20 years ago. And would be a great tool for everything you need. On the road, not racing. A bike like the KLR gets left alone for 35 years. There are certain bits of technology that can just be plugged in play to bring it slightly forward into the future, but give you plenty of performance.
Hey, that's why I went out and bought a 2015 FZ1. Would it be cool to have all the six-axis tc, other aids and an extra 20hp of a 2022+ MT-10? Of course. BUT 1. I don't need them and 2. it would of been an extra 7k. Got the FZ1 for 7k out the door.
"Funny" seeing others complaining about "the cheapest superbike starts at 16k, that's so expensive" when it would cost me 13k to buy a Ninja 650 (not that I'd want to buy that pos lol) R1M for example is 40,000$ in my country, a V4R is almost 60,000$. However I agree with what you are saying in this video.
@@uhtred7860 Yeah some countries are insane. From my little research on this matter I can see that in New Zealand a person makes less money on average yearly than one does in Norway. New Zealand according to my research is at about 50k $ USD, while Norway is about 55-60k$ USD. We have about 35% tax on that and everything here is expensive. So if your country is cheaper to live in generally than Norway and the tax % is less then we are really close to the same cost for a 1000cc motorcycle. I'm also assuming you were talking $ USD when mentioning pricing and not NZD $ because as I'm sure you know that is way less money.
I am a very new biker but I highly disagree on selling superbikes with no aids unless you only sell them to people with a racing license or something like that. The amount of deadly accidents would skyrocket. I am also very glad that in Europe you actually have now to go for a 48hp or lower bike for 2 years until you can ride big ones. Yes, for the few, reasonable among us it might suck, but it eventually prevents a lot of senseless accidents. I recently did a wet/Winter training with guy that has 40+ years of exp as a Moto Instructor - opened my eyes to a whole different world. He told me: You will only become better if you are willing to risk falling and actually experience falls.
Had an MV Augusta F3 & it was raw! No electronic aids or ABS! It was an absolute blast cause it kept you in check. I absolutely adored it. Currently have a 2016 K46 Brentuned & a 2021 NC750X DCT. I adore both since one is super practical for a daily & the other one takes me to the edge of death.
The 2008 Honda CBR 600RR I had was just having the electronic sterring damper. Good thing it had that too for safety and tank slappers. Other than that no electronics or ABS. It was fun and I could adjust the clutch manually for agresive riding. Miss that 600. R6 and Kawasaki ZX6R and Suzuki 600 were great to ride too.
Yes i 100% agree with anything that would drop the prices of these machines. opt out of the electronics.. strip everything out .except for front wheel abs.
The thing is, there is no separate "tranction controll module", no "wheelie controll module" etc. The only "extra" is the IMU. All those "electronic aids" are just functions of the ECU playing with the data from ABS sensors (and IMU in "lean sensitive"). It is a side effect of Ride By Wire (which in turn is something that allows for far less complex engine management and saves a lot of money). So if an advanced enough ECU and ABS are onboard, then removing traction controll is just saving a cost of IMU and maybe some development costs (calibration of ECU, since no bike manufacturer does software for ECU, only parametrize them). So 100 bucks maybe? You would need to develop a second version of a motorcycle based around simplier ECU, but development costs would probably eat up all the savings.
problem is most EU countries are starting to mandate some of the electronics, ABS is a global thing now, and I think the NTSB recommended stability control also become mandatory.
@@wackomedic911 I own a BMW S1000XR model 2022, which is really a computer on two wheels ... if I want to, because I can fine-tune most of its electronics. Why would the electronics be a problem? For me, the electronics on my bike is a welcomed solution.
@@marcos.1771 thanks I own a 1250gs streetfigter v4 and a S1000RR 2021, and in all instances I have had some form of electronics save me, or make my ride more fun. it allows me to race a 210hp superbike safely. BUT in the context of the VIDEO, the PROBLEM is that manufacturers maybe CANT do away or introduce cheaper versions any more due to MANDATES by bodies such as the EU.
I had almost the same thoughts, I’m one of those who doesn’t like electronics and especially pay for them in a motorcycles, I wish if they produce a version without them in a cheaper price.
If it wasn't BMW it would be another manufacturer
I was about to comment the exact same thing
100%
But it wasn't 😊
But it was bmw
It was actually the riders.. you have to actually look into it rather than make a talking head video about it - T.V. INTERVIEW WITH REPORTER
Reporter: Good morning Valentino.
Rossi: Good morning. It's a little early for me though, but I am glad to be here with you.
Reporter: Since traction control systems have been allowed to be used in MotoGP there has been a heated debate over whether or not they are a good addition or bad. We brought you here today to see what your opinion is on the topic, because unlike many of the racers today you have been racing in MotoGP before this technology came into motorcycle racing. First, I would like know if you like having traction control on your motorcycle?
Rossi: Having the traction control system makes riding the motorcycle much easier, and allows me to open the throttle more rapidly without launching me into a highside. Unfortunately, it takes away from the rider's natural ability and feel for the motorcycle, and makes it easier for people to compete with those who they couldn't before having this rider aide. It is basically cheating.
Reporter: What do you mean it allows more people to compete with those who couldn't before traction control came out?
Rossi: "There are many different things that affect traction. Learning to manage them all might sound overwhelming at first" (Parks 16), but once you have learned how traction is affected and can be controlled by the rider it makes racing much more exciting. When you have traction control on a motorcycle you can set it up in many different ways, and if you're not as skilled as others you can increase how much the traction control takes over, and this allows some of the rookies and other slower racers to catch up because they are not going to make as many mistakes as they would if they did not have the traction control system.
Reporter: Why do you think MotoGP has allowed traction control systems?
Rossi: Well bottom line is that it provides safety to the riders which is above all the most important thing. Since traction control systems have been introduced there has been about a 60% decrease in high side crashes per year, which results in less injuries and worst of all things death. So, having these systems on these high powered machines is very important. Also, many of the manufacturers are using the knowledge that they get from testing with us and use the engineering and knowledge to put on their public consumer products to give their customers the most advanced technology to date in order to keep them happy.
Reporter: "Imagine you could invent a new motorcycle racing championship, what would your rules be (Cope)?"
Rossi: "Firstly, the right number of competitors is 24 or 26. At the moment, I would keep the four-stroke. It is true that everyone likes the 500cc 2-stroke but the world now unfortunately goes with the four-stroke. I believe the correct displacement is 1000cc, not 800cc with a limit of 16,000 to 17,000 rpm, not 19,000 as it is right now, so that the bikes cannot reach 220mph. In my opinion, 195 mph is sufficient. Then, I would remove a lot of electronics and many tricks that help guiding the bike. It might take a little traction control, a little help, because the bikes would be powerful, but I would like a quarter of electronics we use now. You know, we can now set the power, gas and traction control at every corner, for each gear. The bike knows exactly where it is on track. When taking advantage of the electronics, you can adapt it so that it takes every curve perfectly. I would keep the traction control but it should be fixed, not adaptable to any type of curve.And no anti-surge control, no control on the brakes: so we would see beautiful overtakes, large drifts in the braking zone and good battles during the races. For me, the championship would be better that way (Cope)."
Reporter: Thank you so much for your time today Valentino. Have a great day.
Rossi: You are welcome, and thank you for having me.
A 200+hp superbike with 0 electronics is nuts.
If you don't have the skills.
That’s bsb for ya lol
@@NudaManwhat's bsb?
@@stewart8127and 99% of the buyers don't.
@@Decrepit_biker that's why they started putting full farting on 300cc and 400cc bikes.
The problem is that it costs nearly as much to manufacture a good 600 as a a 1000cc bike. BMW had this situation in the 90's with their K75 compared to the K100. The K100 only cost $35 more at the manufacturing stage to produce and this made the K75 too expensive for the market compared to the K100.
BMW never intended to produce a 600cc version of the S1000rr for that very reason.
Thats the way it ended up, but it never used to be that way, the Japanese 600s used to be pretty basic compared to 750s and litre bikes, steel frames, RWU forks plus other cost saving measures helped keep the price down, once they started getting ally frames, USD forks radial brakes, Fuel injection the price gap stated to close. The 400s that were sold in Japan and some markets were actually more trick than the 600s, my RVF400 made the same year CBR600 look bum basic and dull by comparison.😃
Manufacturing costs might be similar but insurance to the consumer certainly isn't. Hard for me to justify unloading all that money for 200hp when 100hp is already overkill for the roads anyway.
@@ThermicLight that's why you go for 750cc hp with 1200cc torque.
@@mrmedium7984 - I don't think you know what cc, hp and Nm means.
@@ThermicLight do you understand camshafts, and bore and stroke ratios?
When asked about customer input in the development of the Ford Model T, Henry Ford famously said, "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."
I would think that the electronics are quite cheap part of bikes. You already have throttle-by-wire and abs on all bikes and rest of the sensors and cpu are same level as $100 phone has. Pumping up the power from 170ish to 210+ is probably way more expensive.
That been said I would say that tc is pretty pointless for most of the riders. With modern tires you have to be going quite hard even with the liter bikes on track to start to actually need to cut any power.
For me having good tc got me back into track riding. I used to ride 2005 zx-10r and with that you had to ride at least couple times a month to be able to even keep up with the bike. Take a too long pause from riding at it took couple days to get back in to control of the bike. Now with 2021 S1000RR you can just ride with your street tires on the track after winter and find your self going really fast after just couple laps and with out constant fear of dying :D
But also that been said I sold that bike and got 690 smc r, liter bikes are just too boring on streets.
Bad example... phones are made by the billion and bike are made in small numbers
@@bloodspartan300
However, the bases come from the same suppliers for all motorcycles.
@@bloodspartan300 There is no reason why they wouldn't use same sensors and other parts as all the phone manufacturers use. So they can take benefit from the same scale.
Fancy seeing you here mr pressy pressy man!
@@bloodspartan300 This is partly true. Motorcycle electronics is only build maybe 100000 pieces for a series of electronics (used in different motorcycles). Which doesn't have the huge scaling effect of mobile phones, but still quite some scaling effects. On the other hand motorcycle electronics doesn't need to be so incredibly miniaturized which makes production and development quite a bit cheaper.
Another big reason for the downfall of 600cc Sportbikes is in my opinion the change for the a2 license where you can restrict a bike with a maximum of 70kw to the allowed limit of 35kw.
A2 is 35kw OR o.2kw/kg
what do you mean? here, people ride more 600cc just because of that. i myself too ride an mt07 (55kw, but 35 in papers) because of that. everyone gets the bike they want, limit them to 35kw, do the technical inspection and documentation and after that bring them back to stock. and now you “legally” ride a 35kW+ bike with just an A2 license. been riding like that since I was 19, otherwise would have to wait until 24 or have the A2 license for 2+yrs I think (now that i can get my full A I just cant be asked since I can ride with my A2). and yeah, no police nor the guys at techical inspection that you do every year check whether you removed the restrictors.
@@franomaster1234 i guess that depends where you live too right?
@@Mr_C0mment I mean probably. I live in Croatia, but even from friends from nearby countries I havent heard any problems regarding the licenses…
@@franomaster1234 okay
Actually Suzuki dropped the GSX-R 1000 in EU. The only sport models I see advertised are the Hayabusa and the 125... nothing in between. Kudos to Kawasaki for reviving the ZX-6R.
Michael Neeves from MCN said that when he visited suzuki factory, all the bikes were hidden away in some tiny corner in some random warehouse. Suzuki as a company do not care at all for bikes anymore.
@@anabolic8097 It certainly feels that way.
@@anabolic8097 Yep, all the old guard, that really cared about bikes have gone from the company. I remember a guy from Suzuki saying that the GSX-R750 was a historic model for Suzuki and that it would never be dropped from the lineup due its significance, well they still might sell it (in some markets) but it hasn't had a single update since 2011, bar graphics.
I'm one of the snobs who hates that now anyone can ride a litre bike. Back then you needed the skill to tame one.
I mostly agree, not because I'm a snob, but because rider aids help brave idiots go faster, not safer. People are crashing faster than what their skill alone would have allowed them. I suspect that's the reason why, with all the advances in rider safety, the average death toll from accidents hasn't gone down from the 70's! It's ridiculous!
@@max-zv7sf
I would agree with you on that!
my bmw R100 (980cc) didn't need to be tamed, it just ran smoooooth as butter on a hot day... longest single day was 600 miles, and I could do 110mph without realizing it. Soften the suspension a bit, and I'd use the cylinder heads as indicator I was leaned over enough! :D
@@kneadedmassage9751 German Harleys don't count as liter bikes. Sorry captain Bismarck
@stewart8127 that was mostly in humor, as it had what 40hp, maybe, on a good day.
The point of the old Supersport japanese 600, now the "liter bike" is EXACTLY to see how much HP they can put between your legs.
For other such excitement, go jump dirt bikes, go take a $11,000 mountain bike downhill...
Etc
Paradigm shifts always have unforeseen consequences.
That is why they are a paradigm shift. To see what is happening, you have to be outside of it.
Motorcycles without electronics are better. Im 25 and i learned to ride carburayed bikes they dont have computer chips all over and theyre reliable even after 30 years
Like you said, we would get here anyway, but not that fast. BMW just speeded things up. If I was BMW I would do the same, because in market you have to be opportunistic
I´d argue that electronics help riders to improve faster. They create a safety buffer which allows you to safely reach the limit tyres and motorcylce with a much lower chance of a crash. You can test how much brake or throttle you can apply in a few minutes. Without TC/ABS I´d argue it would take years to gain that knowledge.
According to Keith Code from the California Superbike school crash rate dropped by 40% once they moved from "analog" 600ccs to S1000RR. They always ride with them enabled.
Personally I really like the TC on the MT-09. There´s literally no intrusion for fast street riding. You really only need to turn it off if you want to to clutch up wheelies (power wheelies work just fine with TC enabled). What exactly are your complains here?
he has no complains here because while he blames BMW for the lack of 600cc HE is litteraly the dumb fuck that is the reason for that not BMW. like watch his videos about how he got a KTM 390 and how that's all the bike you need.... who is really trashing the 600cc market the ones not even in the 600cc market or the dude that pedals the stereotype of 600cc being to dangerous and that you should get something smaller instead. it's people like this guy and feminism that has made men more scared to ride bikes and made people to scared to get a 600cc bike because every idiot tells them they are to dangerous when in reality the 600cc class was literally made as a safer option to the 1000cc so new riders could ride it without the bike just throwing them off when they give a little to much throttle in the corner.
and yeah the electronics help. even the god damn Rain mode is still more powerful than liter bikes use to be att full power. analog bikes are fun when they are very simple and slow but when you actually want to go fast fast you want them electronics. specially the new shit. a fucking drift assist electronic is extremely useful not only to save your ass and to learn sliding but also as it literally saves you on tires even if you don't drift it meaning more track day laps per tire. also what is the nr1 complain people have about dailying a sport bike? yeah the back pain on long trips. boom BMW has cruise control so you can just throw that shit on and have a stretch. no need to spend long trips on the highway hunched over when you can sitt straight and stretch your back a little while the cruise control maintains your speed.
It was only a matter of time until a manufacturer would introduce this much electronics into their brand spanking new bike. Turns out it was BMW. Could have been any other manufacturer (maybe not Japanese first thought).
let's be honest it could have ben BMW or Ducati. i don't think any other manufacturer would take the first step like that. but electronics are not bad like even the rain mode on a modern bmw is more powerfull than what a liter bike use to be att full power. it helps people be better and safer riders and helps people learn because now you can kind of try shit without worrying to much about fucking up. like the new drift assist electronic. it's not like the bike goes in to auto pilot and your inputs no longer do shit like you still have to do shit and that kind of electronic just allows you to get comfortable with actually drifting in corners so then next time you jump on a bike without it you kind of know what you are doing. and the track settings ABS and shit brakes 1000x better than any human could ever do. not better on the street settings but on full track settings that ABS and shit will help you brake much better than you can without it.
This is what KTM kinda did in India. They launched a new 390 Adventure calling it the 390Adventure X without any of the fancy electronics except for switchable ABS at about 700 dollars cheaper. And enthusiasts seem to prefer this model as there are lesser electronics that can fail and the TC was a mess on the standard model. It would come back on every time you stall. Now in the X, there is no TC to interfere. Smart move.
Well but TC on a 390 is utter nonsense anyways.
Maybe where you live the road surfaces are not marvellous so maybe in tthat scenario it can make some sense, but generally speaking I don't think a 390 could ever need TC.
I have TC on my Trident 660, that makes double the power of a 390, and it hardly ever comes into action. Probably only in rainy conditions.
@@gabrielegrimaldi5026 yeah, roads are not the best in India. And the TC is more intrusive than useful. The cornering ABS is however an important safety feature I believe that the Adv 390X lacks. But the price difference is substantial
Because of poor brokie people
And enthusiasts are holes..
The 390 ADV X is even more ugly then the standard 390 ADV model. Thank god the new 2024 soon to be released model actually looks good now.
The biggest problem with a reliance on electronics is what happens as the vehicle ages. There are so many future fail-points. As the bike gets worn, these extra systems will fail and be impossible to ride without. Rendering bikes a write-off when expensive systems go down. This has been happening with cars for a while now. Whole cars being scrapped because the engine management system is too complex or too expensive to maintain and replace. About ten years ago I threw away a Peugeot 406 because it wouldn’t get out of ‘limp home mode’. After spending a couple of thousand chasing the problem, it still didn’t work and wasn’t worth bothering with. I drive a 2007 Mercedes Vito van for work and that has no key, just a chip that is inserted into the dash to start it. The link from the chip to the immobiliser failed two years ago and cost AU$1200 to replace the entire unit and key-fob. And the silly thing does nothing that a $2 key doesn’t do. Bikes tend to age slower because of lower km per year. But I expect to have issues with the ABS on my 2011 FZ8 soon enough. I dread having a more electronically sophisticated bike. Every one of the advances systems can fail. They will all fail eventually. And some may cost more than the bike is worth. In some ways, this isn’t an advancement when it shortens the effective life of a bike. Especially a bike that someone like me may buy and want to ride on the road for years to come. And honestly I don’t need any of these systems. I don’t ride on the track and never redline any of my bikes. I’d buy the basic version of any bike on offer.
it just creates a huge market for mechanics and software developers who can create non-dealer diagnostic software to troubleshoot motorcycle electronics so riders can just do an email download for updates quickly/easily.
I absolutely agree with you on this campaign #give_my_carburetors_back
For that exact reason i ride Kawasaki zzr1100, it's a powerful machine with 146hp and pure raw power, and if the engine fails I either sell it for parts and get more than I paid for it or if I'm too far from home I'll set it on fire 😂
@@LeontheKiller11 Set it on fire?! That's very rude towards the poor bike. That's no way to say thank you for all the good times you rolled together!!! :P
@@LeontheKiller11 got a 2006 cbr1000rr because the next gen and after had ABS
Sport bikes peaked in the mid 2000s
K5 GSXR
CBR954 (still lighter than the current fireblade and better looking in my opinion)
F4i
636
RC51
And many more
Cable operated throttle
Stupid reliable
Resonably priced
More relaxed ergonomics for street riding.
I 100% agree. Ive pretty much lost interest in new bikes, I'll stick with my small collection of 80s - 2000s bikes. Awesome era for bikes.
Don't forget the V Twin Aprilias ans Ducatis
What should be more concerning is how manufactures are stealthy killing independent garages and forcing people to take their bikes back to dealerships just for a plug in! For example kawasaki if you go past the service light by a certain mileage you have to take it to kawasaki because they are only ones who have the software to plug in and remove it
The purpose of the service reminder light is not to remove it as quickly as possible, but to get the bike serviced.
Duh...
@@marcos.1771 but you still need it removed after a service doesnt just disappear once you dropped the oil….duh
@@g.w.3816Once the service is accomplished, the dealership will turn off the service reminder light.
Obviously!
Duh...
Dude, tell me about it... A day ago I was messing about with ABS in 2018 Burgman 650. Owners manual was like "contact service". Service manual not available to download (I didn't feel like spending money to fix one issue on not my bike) so I had to call stealership and ask them "is there any self-diagnosis mode for ABS so it will flash (or whatever) error code?" They said no the second I finished my sentence. I found dead rear sensor the old fanshioned way of digging through those goddamn plastics looking for a plug and checking if there is any continuity.
@@marcos.1771you should really read things/think about it before hitting the keyboard but il give you the benefit of the doubt. like YOU said the dealership! What about people who dont want to pay silly dealership money and instead prefer togo to independent garages. Manufacturers are making it harder for independent garages to work on their bikes due to only supplying dealerships with the specific tools/software etc
What kills me is how nonchalant all these newer riders are saying that someone's bike only makes 200+ horsepower because of the rider aids. They clearly never ridden a 165 wheel horsepower rocket with no rider aid, and have half the skill a rider 15 years ago needed to ride these bikes fast.
Damn BMW forced the whole sector to produce safer ”street legal“ bikes. What a shame...
And much more expensive
How could they!
What it has done is tricked riders into thinking they are better than they actually are. Where I live just about once a week from April till October a rider is killed. 95% of the time " Speed" was the main factor.
Now I actually wonder if it's *cheaper* to have the safety features, for two reasons.
So, for starters, for Europe, you already have most of the hardware you need, and in practice you have *all* of the hardware you need (if you want the mandatory ABS to be *good* ) - wheel speed sensors and an IMU. You also have a lot of electronic control over the engine's behavior, which is needed thanks to modern emissions requirements. Now, you could leave that ABS unit off of bikes for markets that don't mandate it, but you're already mass-producing it for Europe, so it doesn't cost much. That doesn't make it *cheaper* than not having it, but it makes it less expensive to have it.
...but then there's product liability. When someone dies because they grabbed a fistful of throttle inappropriately and got yeeted into space, there's a potential lawsuit that the manufacturer has to defend or settle. If your customer doesn't get yeeted into space as a result of grabbing a fistful of throttle inappropriately, there's no wrongful death suit in the first place.
Before the S1000RR, if you even glanced at a super bike, even sideways...even if it was in the showroom window! it would simultaneously throw you over the high side, lock the front wheel and tuck, and hoist the front wheel so hard, the clocks would headbutt you!! How we rode them at all without dying instantly is beyond me. 😏🤭😆🤣🤣
Which is why there are so many superbike riders getting into crashes. They never needed the years it takes to build up their riding skills. New riders just don't want to learn. Just my 2 cents, been riding for 30 years.
The art of learning throttle control and braking finesse, has been replaced by the electronic brain.
That’s why I ride an RC51, simply brilliant.
electronics are great but they also mask what a superbike used to be.
Abs is simply a computer correcting a low iq braking strategy for people who dont know how to emergency brake to the most effectiveness. To some degree uts useful in a motorcycle because front wheel abs could save a lot of idiots lives who dont realise locking uo your front wheel witu a fist full of brake max strength all at once is actually how you brake a motorcycle in a long distance and its also how you crash and die. The oroble. Is you give a bunch of begginers abs and they barely know what it even is and they will hrsb a fist full of brake and in 1980 you wouldve crash your bike but in 2023 your abs will unlock your brakes so they spin and the pads csn bute down more again and keeo slowing you down. Its actually a slow way to stop and dangerous because you dont want to rely on a system that can fail which purpose was for rare over braking situations that lock the wheel up, and cause your bike to crash and you die. Its not the fastest way to stop. Its imbetween stopping correctly and locking your wheels up enturely and sliding like back in the 1980s. The solution is simple. Abs is a crutch. Maybe here or there its worth it but actually for people who know what theyre doing and follow the speed limits, abs us basucally useless. Its a nice feature to have but it gets in the way in other ways and the need for it is mitigated by actually knowing how to stop a motorcycle as fast as possible with as much brske pressure as possible without the wheel lockingnuo and all so abs that you paid for never even comes on. Then its just soley in the way. When i took msf course they taught us how to stop as fast as possible without locking up the wheel on bikes that didnt have abs. Thus was when i was about 18. Im 25 now and most motorcycles still dont have abs or theyll have them as options. To me it doesnt matter but it also depends on the budget. If its a beater budget bike im not going to spring for many upgrades. Abs is useless for me because you dont ride your motorcycle in bad conditions i learned that with enough close calls. Abs is nice but really what people should be doing is taking their bike out to ab empty lot and speeding up snd gradually gradually increasing their braking pressure until its engrained in your muscle memory so when you have to emergency brake its almost instinctual how tightly you grab onto the brake to stop as fast as pissible without your wheels locking up. For me this was key to lesrning esrly because motorcycles without computer systems are much more affordable in the long run and therr has been a couole situations where if i didnt knows how to brake properly and i just relied on abs i wouldve actually gone off a cliff one time that was halfway through a turn. As well as there is sometimes sudden stopping. You cant just grab a fist full of brake even if you have abs or you wont stop youll actually keep going and hit whatever your braking to not hit. You have to ease into your motorcycles brakes. You can squeeze a good strength if you ease into it with increasing strength as opposed to grabbing a fist full and relying on abs that might not even be there or be in working order. If the wheel locks up without abs if you dont let go in the blink of an eye you could crash the bike. If the wheel locks you need to release brake pressure and reapply again. The front brake is sum 80% of the bikes stopping power. The rear foot brake is some odd 20ish %. So you have to apply them both at the same time without locking either up to stop the fastest. Abs should never come on. You need to he able to apply the brskes until right before the wheel locks and abs comes on to stop the fastest. Sliding isnt stopping and if abs is kicking on your sliding at least part of the time and your abs is releasing your brakes as well so its not an efficient way of stopping. Better than purely sliding though. i had a bike from the 80s in 2016 it didnt have abs or traction control. I could emergency stop it faster than people who get bikes with abs and they rely on the computer to compensate for their lack of skill and education. Abs is good but its also a risky thing. Its very improtant to know how your motorcycle is going to react. If your abs is kicking on you are braking too hard and your stop is already inefficient. You are not riding the motorcycle properly then. Its an emergency system so its supposed to stay on in the background incase you need it and the goal is that it never kicks on. I dont need abs. Its nice but i actually am not bothered at all not having it. Maybe on a 200hp superbike and lemans its useful but i dont get any wheel spin on my way to mcdonalds bro traction control is litterally useless there 😂😂😂 im the fastest stopping vehicle on the road without abs im actually worried about stopping too fast and getting rear ended more than i am concerned about not stopping fast enough because i understsnd exactly how capable a non abs motorcycle is at stopping. More capable than cars with abs. More mass is harder to slow down.
The problem is, bean counters in 2023 could *never* consider creating a motorcycle with a purposely narrowed market. The modern day c suite idiot at motorcycle companies concern is "how do we market a literbike to every demographic?"
Only way to do that is to jam every bike with so many electronics that a liter feels approachable in every way except price
I ride a 1984 Honda vf750f. Gas, motor, carbs, clutch, breaks, and wheels…..dam fun ride. I think half the electronics just means there is more to go wrong over longer periods and more reasons to have to go back to the dealership because the stuff can not be fixed in your garage.
I remember when the VF750F was released, I had just started my first job, on the parts counter at a Honda Dealer, I used to know the part number for cams and cam followers of by heart, god knows we ordered enough replacements when they started self destructing. Then Honda issued all these workshop bulletins and "fixes" until finally altering the way they bored the head and cam caps. Haven't seen a (going) VF750F in years, but i do have its brother, a 86 VFR750 😀
Please send me a picture of your motorcycle. I had one and I want to add a picture to my album of all the motorcycles I’ve ever owned. If you have a great example, I would really appreciate it.
I'm just hoping that electronics become so cheap that prices start coming back down. My last supersport was a 2004 GSXR-1000. A 13k ZX-10r with electronics that I can turn off would be very acceptable but I'm not paying 20k for any motorcycle.
I think they are just overpricing it now. If people stop buying new litre bikes, prices would go down
you should look in to how these bikes are made. razor sharp tolerances and top of the line parts. electronics isn't what makes them expensive, it's making really good bikes that does.
Old rider here, is "The Pace" still a thing?
I'm the ultimate cheapskate... my current bike, a 2001 Aprilia that I picked up in the heart of Covid-mania, was $100 to purchase and roughly $2000 in parts (plus a couple months time) to revive from the dead. I've done this dozens of times, parts bins bikes that I put back together and ride... or non-runners that I do an engine swap on. The lions share of my miles on the street have been on bikes that cost under $1000, a few that were free for the taking.
As for the electronics angle, more old rider attitude here... but if you never build a good foundation of riding skills, you 100% rely on those "aids", there will come a time when that bites you. Perhaps in a life ending way. But, being old, having spent years chasing the track addiction, I don't have any desire to go fast on the street. I don't ride anywhere near my limits, much less those of any kind of electronic support. I get the feeling that I will be less and less interested in new bikes as time progresses, just as I've completely lost interest in new cars. Instead, I crave the unique older options, usually on the cheap so I have more gas money and less need to trade my time for money....
I'm right there with you, I lost nearly all interest in new bikes, Ive gone back to my roots, 80s 90s early 2000s bikes, I love restoring and riding 80s 90s bikes, and have have a few early 2000s bikes as my daily rides. I get just as much enjoyment working on them as i do riding them.
The global effort in tightening emission laws killed the 600cc class not the advancement of electronics
Great discussion starter. It makes sense to offer the flagships editions with all the race prep AND a several less premium models. Auto manufacturers offer trim levels…likewise cycle riders can level up as their needs (and wallets) allow. 👍🏾
I love the CS idea!! I recently bought a 2006 R1200GSA and promptly removed the ABS pump before it fails.
"any idiot can ride a 1000" LOL very funny but...yes you are right !!!
What is incredibly annoying these days at Bmw and Ducati is that they put aero ugly wings on street bikes to homologate their racing bikes as aeroplanes and beat Japanese bikes
This is why BSB is the best racing series in the world to watch.
160bhp without electronics on a 1000cc bike is more fun than a full TC/WC/SC 200bhp 1000.
The 600 doesn't make much sense off track, a 750 is more comfortable and better on the motorway generally and are more fun to ride.
QuickShifter without rev matching, everything else can go to the trash can.
THE AGONY IN HIS VOICE WHEN HE SAY "ANY IDIOT" 😂😂😂
As a guy who has owned every brand and over 60 motorcycles in my opinion BMW makes the best bikes in every class they build. I love BMW bikes.
Bmw sucks.
K4 / K5 gixxer for me, the last of the true gixxers
That was the bike BMW studied and benchmarked when they were developing the first S1000RR.
Emissions regulations are more to blame than BMW and rider aids.
We all know that after Audi purchased Ducati at that time around 2012 that Audi was going to be the first to pack the Ducati with the same tech to revive the brand. BMW did it first and won. Back then I said to myself I would never buy a $20k+ bike and looking at today's lineup you no longer have that option besides GSXR-1K
Finally someone has said it. Totally agree. Any idiot can ride cos the electronics can save you. And price points through the roof.
I totally agree, i myself ride an MT 09 first model without any electronics and it s the best. Nowdays everybody is rossi right from the gett go because Electronics are baby sitting them.
True riders wich grew up on a powerfull carburator bikes without any aids will dissapear will be slowly deminished, since you cannot get any faster, then perfectly calculetad PC proccesing every thousand of a second and every rev at a corner.
Imagine Moto GP Without any EL... :D that would have been interesting....slower laptimes, but more skill needed.
Nobody cares. Nobody cares about 'skill'. How skilled you think you are. How skilled anyone is. Just gatekeeping trolls care.
I got tracer 900 basically mt09 with fairings and it was blast bike it could drift 😂 wery raw
@@SirNarax I may not be all trolls some would appreciate the challenge and feeling. As some people ride trails with two or more cylinder bikes and not light competition enduro Machines. It's about a choice but yes time moves on and older bikes wanish with older riders
@@Antivir123 I can just tell from the way you are writing this that you are not the kind of person I was describing. It is just fine to not want that stuff on your bike. It is your bike after all.
I don't like when other demean others to pressure them into doing the same. Calling others crap or that the bike is 'baby sitting' them.
@@SirNarax yes, you're right. But mandatory abs is actually good thing on a road bike , TCS too ( two up loaded in rain it can IMHO help even seasoned riders.
Yeah - pity about the 600's and 750's - Lots of fun and can run the corners nicely. Bring them back with 120 to 150hp at the rear with no electronics aside from fueling. and at a reasonable price.
These powered to the moon litre bikes with rider aids are a bit of a yawn. The other thing to consider is that they also fit decent sized rear tyres on powerful sports bikes which also help with handling the power. For my 1KRR 04 model I was riding 190/55, when I got my ZX10-R 14 model, I went to a 200/55 and left TC at the least interfering without me having to deal with it every time I switched the bike off. I loved the refined engine of the ZX10-R but not the electronics which I never bothered with after setting it to lest interference (could be turned off but required you to do that every time you turned the bike on = PITA).
I'd love a 150hp 750 with no TC and decent rear tyre like a 190/55. Keep it relatively light and fun to ride. The supercharged R7's look like a hoot but they are a parallel twin so not quite the same beast as a inline 4 or even triple.
150hp 750 no TC light weight = go buy a GSXR750 it's the best 600 supersport ever made
go buy a suzuki gixxr 750 then.... and no they should and they legally have to put electronics on them. they are not allowed to be sold without ABS for example and you want those kind of electronics. just because you are brainwashed to think full analog is 100% better don't mean it actually is. there are benefits to the electronics and if you don't like them then why the fuck are you even getting a new bike? go get a old early 2000s bike if that's what you want. it's retarded for people to want a new bike with no electronics because there are so many emissions restrictions and shit that you have to deal with so it's better to just go buy a old early 2000s bike before all the restrictions. the best 600cc bikes are from the early 2000s and no modern one will ever be as good so why be stupid and get a brand new one?
Absolutely loved my gsxr750. ring that things neck and its respectable to 1000s. Super easy to ride too. Basically bullet proof. 150 claimed so probably around 120-130 at the wheel stock. Not to mention the aftermarket parts.
Sounds like you need a Duke 890 or an MT09.
It's the same in car world, at least in the US. You can no longer a buy a car with a clutch, roll down windows or fewer tech-packages, in order to buy within a budget. If all the manufactures are on board and offer only a premium model, the consumer is forced to comply. Now that many manufactures are also their own bank, they will offer you a finance rate to fit your budget, instead of a budget friendly price.
In my racing sport traction control is not allowed we need to keep being pioneers before all bikes disappear
I wonder how many owners even go fast enough to trigger the safety aids? Also wonder how many low/highsides rider aids might have prevented over the years...
You don't need to go fast to see electronics helping. You need just a rainy day and a twist from your wrist to see that TCM blinking for example. Those are so finely made that you don't even see it or feel it usually. So that makes your comment silly.
@@mortaljorma69No it wont make the comment silly, because if u need the bike to help u ride it, then what's the point of "RIDING" the bike, it will be more like the bike carrying u in its back. (Like a child on mother's safe hands)🤣
Every ride for a set of twisties outside my neighborhood. Electronic aids especially traction control is just amazing, wonderful, a game-changer, because it's so good at responding instantly to a bike going into a highside state. TC makes a bike handle so smoothly out of corners, basically it's like the Giant Hand of God coming down and never letting the bike get out of shape, wiggle, buck. Even running through gravel on the throttle the TC smooths out power instantly. And riding a supersport down a gravel road is a revelation with TC.
So one of the most common, or perhaps the most common, low-sides I see is the rider adds more throttle while increasing lean into the turn. TC will tell you not to do that while reducing throttle.
@@mortaljorma69 I learned how much gas I can pull. That's why I ride a motorcycle.
@@langhamp8912 If TC helps u to control the throttle, then how will u learn to control the throttle by yourself without TC?. If we rely on the electronics, how will we learn the techniques, if u ride on a bike without TC u will learn to analyze the road u r riding, u will learn to identify road hazards like gravel, oil, etc and will adapt the speed, throttle input, body inputs etc, but if TC or other electronics are helping us to do that, how will we acquire the skill?.
I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I would go the other way. I would make ABS, TCS, and IMUs mandatory on all bikes. And if i have to save up for some more months to absorb the cost, so be it. Bikes are dangerous enough on their own, and TCS has saved my skin more times than I can count.
Spot on
Abs has saved lives, not just skin. Mine too and I ride a 125cc scooter.
Bikes regardless of size have dramatically lower insurance rates if they have ABS/TC. And after owning a bike with ABS/TC, I wouldn't own another bike without those two items. TC is just amazing, I wonder if riders who hate on TCS have actually ridden a liter bike with TC.
Go home to mummy, communist!
true. I never got the mentality of if you can ride you don't need electronic aids. a college of mine recently broke his leg because his front wheel locked while breaking. he was riding without an accident for 20 years.
who would want to buy a car without ABS today even tho the consequences of a crash are way lower
I think you got same facts wrong. The BMW was not the first with tc and qc. The first tc was in the Ducati 1098r and 1198s in 2007..
I'm an electrician with a heavy electronic background, electronics are cheap. Company's just stitch us up when it comes to adding these features to bikes
Yamaha now offers traction control on their r15 and mt15. They are 155cc bikes 💀
I got an H2 SX this summer. It's honestly very easy to ride unless you're pushing it and that's mostly thanks to the electronics, not my skill. I'll admit, I'm not good enough to ride a liter bike with no electronics. That said, I disagree that any idiot can twist the throttle on these things and have electronics sort everything out. You still need to know how to ride well to be on a liter bike to begin with, it's just that you won't immediately kill yourself if you fuck up.
My GSXS1000 is the most powerful yet conversly the easiest bike I've ever owned. The electronics make it feel like a fat 600cc, it's so easy going and mellow despite its awesome for me speed.
If you want a superbike without electronics, just buy an old one. Take the money you saved, invest it in some state of the art suspension, maybe different brakes too and you're good. And I don't think superbikes without rider aids will ever come back, it's not exactly good for a manufacturers image as they want to be percieved as advanced and modern, and besides that a lot of people would kill themselves on a bike like that, which would just be bad press. Cheap, extremely powerful and unforgiving is exactly the kind of combination which sends off young and overenthusiastic riders to meet their maker. I could see it on a track only bike, but I don't know how popular that would be.
Nothing is cheap anymore. Just keep the tech and save some lives. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it; even if you think you are so good you don't need it.
A good example of sport bike but without all the useless electronics, even if it sounds crazy, is the R7, because it only has ABS and (maybe) an optional quick-shifter if you want to. Even tho it leaks power (sadly) the formula isn't wrong imo. I'd love something like the R7 (with a bit more power, at least 110hp for a street use, maybe with the CP3 engine) and very fiew electronics, I already use the bike only in summer and when it's sunny and I'm concious enough to know when I have to be cautious with the throttle so I don't send the bike on the moon. With good tires and a functioning head you're good, I have a 2003 ZX6R and I love it.
Inevitable. If BMW didn't get there first, I'm sure others would have.
exactly why i ride a 20 year old bike on track, no electronics
I get your point of view, and I also love Yamaha....I've owned double digits of Yamaha's and lost track at this point.....however, BMW isn't to blame for Japanese manufacturers doing what they always do....make a product and then not touch or update it in any significant way for far too long. The S1kRR is a sweetheart of a bike.
The reason 600s died is because people stopped buying them. If everybody would love them as much elas they cry about it on the internet, you should have put your money where your mouth is and purchased one. This is the ultimate decision factor for the manufactures.
I personally think 600s only have an advantage on the track, where weight and lower power actually help you learn. On the street, the ~660 twins arguably are a good replacement on everything but sound, which his heavily subjective and replaceable with a 1000cc bike no problem.
I learned how much gas I can pull. That's why I ride a motorcycle.
I still think that too much electronic safety aids took away the feel the riding a bike (i think so) give me 170 180 HP bike theres no where safe enough for you to use all of the power which you pay for but i do think those safety aids are important to make your mistakes a bit of more forgiving.
Love my BMW GS's...i'm on my 4th gen. I was loyal to Honda (CBR's/VFR) prior but as i aged i realized i could ride in comfort, nearly as fast around corners and didn't need the top speeds of Sportbikes thus my transition to BMW's.
This is one of the reasons I enjoy the R7 so much. Legally it has to have ABS, but otherwise it has no rider aids. If you're pushing it at the track you have to learn to control it yourself
I already have one. A 2015 GSX-R750. After some mods it can rival some liter bikes. But still doesn't have even ABS.
Having a cheaper no electronic version would be great for really experienced rider. But imagine some kids never rode any other bike before but now has an option paying less for a “doper” bike, it’s gonna be a disaster
The 600 market was really hurt more by emissions regulations than anything else. Screaming high-rpm engines produce a lot of non-methane hydrocarbons at low RPM and they can't meet the new emissions regs in Europe in particular. It became less economically viable to make them than it used to be.
not really. all that can still be bypassed by engineering. the real reason is actually feminism. feminism the last 20+ years have destroyed masculinity and made the world more feminin and made the modern guys all little snowflakes meaning you just have a bunch of dumb fragile people who are to afraid to buy a 600cc as they think it's to fast and will kill them. even though the 600cc sport bike was made in the first place as a safer option to the 1000cc as they are easy to ride and don't throw you off just becuse you gave it a little to much throttle. combined with dumb people like this youtuber himself that push the narrative of ''you don't need a big bike small displacement like 390cc is more than enough'' so it's a combination of feminism teaching men to be more fragile and then idiots who push narratives of 600 being to dangerous for people and that slower bikes are more fun that has pushed the 600cc class out of favor.
the 600cc can never be as powerful as it once was but it can still be made but nobody wanted the 600cc so they disappeared until now. they are actually combing back now but honestly i would rather them just cancel the 600cc class and replace it with 750cc real sport bikes like the gixxr 750. like let's be honest 600cc is just slightly to slow for people so they jump to liter bikes. and liter bikes are to powerful for the street. so the best of both worlds is a 750cc. and anyone interested in a 600cc is better of getting one from the earlier 2000s pre all the emissions and shit.
It seems that at some point, it’s no longer a motorcycle, but a sports car on two wheels. Some (many?) like that, I guess...
even if you are 30 years old experienced driver, you might don't know if any four wheelers or any other pull out off now where and then you screw both brakes die hard( of course only when you don't have option) than You realise that how ABS can save your life , Not TC but atleast ABS is must things, you are acting lile it reduce skill 🤦💆..
I tried bikes with electronic aids. To me, that takes out the pleasure of what I've learnt in 30 years of riding. That precision required, that human skill that makes the difference. If nobody had electronic aids, the driver would make much more of a difference and new riders would have to learn some important skills, that perhaps, not even electronics can save. Or at least give me the option to activate or deactivate certain driver aids. Looking at the figures, it seems that sportsbike have become slightly heavier as well.
I do agree 100%.There should be a cheaper "no electronic" model. I had them and sold it, as i could not switch it off. Bought a k9 with only 3 modes. (600/750/1000cc) In rain i selected 600 mode. Best idea ever.
all it takes to make one mistake. and no matter how experienced you are, you may eventually make that mistake. why not having a backup when you need the most?!
I don't get why you say they ruined sport bikes forever when they've just made them better by forcing competitors to keep up. Your opinion is pretty wack.
I don't think that an R1 CS would necessarily be cheaper for Yamaha to manufacture than an R1 with all the rider aids.
The development costs are all sunk and losing a few sensors around the bike won't save much money. They'd still probably run the same ECU with just a different program on it.
In fact we have an example with KTM where you buy the electronic aids by going to your dealer, spending something like £700. All they do is tell the ECU to turn them on.
KTM must find it cheaper to just manufacture one bike with all the hardware and charge you if you want the feature.
If BMW and the others start playing this game all that is likely to happen is an R1 CS will be the same price as the current R1 and we'll all be shafted for more money to have the lean sensitive stuff and quickshifter.
Having the electronic aids already there, but then paying for a dealer to tap a key board to turn them on is a massive ripoff and insult to the customer. Just when i thought id heard every way a dealer could shaft you i hear this.😁
In my personal opinion, a superbike should be built around racers who seek to chase lap times on the track, not an average Joe who seeks affordable performance to go fast on the straight line.
While it may be lame that superbike prices are going up, I don't care much about it, and I prefer they get better and faster for racers than cheaper. I also want more MotoGP tech, like ride height devices, to make its way to superbikes.
Even effortable bikes like the Mt09 offer more than enough performance for the average Joe on the street and on the track. I see no logic or reason in owning a superbike in the first place just to ride it on the street.
Yes m09 like performance is very okay and playful on the streets
yeah prices are pointless to give a fuck about because why the fuck do people have to be so dumb that they need the absolute brand new bike? there are always used bikes for sale so if you really want a superbike you can get the used one to and just wait for the currently new one to become used and reduced in price. same reason as why i think GT86/BRZ are retarded. because why the fuck is buying brand new so god damn important for people when for the same price they can get something used that is actually a full blown luxury race car and cost like 70-100k when it was new. why are people so obsessed with wasting money on brand new when they can always get used. because when it comes to brz/gt86 you are still in the end 40-60k deep in to them when you actually built them to where they need to be. all these automotive youtubers and influencers are tainting peoples minds because they don't spend shit building their BRZ so kids then think they are affordable cars and want one just because it's the only thing they can afford brand new.
They will never sell something cheaper because they don't want a lot of people to ride bikes or cars They just want profit and profit can be achieved only ripping off customers. Even because people is became poorer, at least in Europe, so it would be a loss to produce more bikes for less money. If you add laws and regulations the picture is complete.
I prefer no safety aids, I don't track where they may help,but on the street they take away the fun. Even when turned off the bike still doesn't feel right.
The biggest reason why 600cc bikes died is emission controls. With the big european market shifting to Euro 6 emission laws for new bikes it is not viable to produce a 600cc which meets those standards (except Kawasaki cos they are just awesome). But this is the biggest reason why we don´t see I4 600cc screamers anymore in bikes. New Hornet: 750 paralell twin, Yamaha MT06 paralell Twin, every KTM is either a single or two cylinder, most Kawasaki Z like the 650 are twins. I think you are on to something about the rider aids making literbikes easy to ride so it makes less sense to produce them but i think it just is part of picture and the biggest contributor are the emissions regulations
The 600 class was dying well before euro 6 came into effect, the class was dropping off before even euro 5. Emissions have played their part but the the biggest reason, is people stopped buying them, they were once one the biggest sellers in the market. They stopped selling because the started getting too close price wise to bigger bikes, and they started getting expensive, because they started to get more and more race orientated. There was a time when the 600 class bikes were far more budget spec than the bigger 750s and 1000s/1100s. Then when World Super Sports became a support race for World Super Bikes, the 600s started getting more and more race orientated. (Look at an early 2000s 600 compared to, say a 2015 and later model 600, You could tour 2 up on a CBR600F4i, you'd need a chiropractor if you tried that on a CBR600RR) The once, all rounder 600s that were a stepping stone to bigger bikes, became mini super bikes with sky high redlines and race ergonomics, and became expensive to develop and the price rose to where they were close to the litre bikes. sales slowed right down.
This is why I ride a 2019 Kawasaki Z900. Only electronic thing on the bike is ABS and nothing else. No ride modes, no TCS, no EBD, no TFT screens, no bluetooth.. Just pure fun.
The TC is an amazing invention for big bikes. At 200+HP a good TC even makes a difference in Pro Racing. It augments a good rider, not make him obsolete. And it made the sport a whole lot safer. Reducing the risk of highsiders is a massive improvement for supersport riders.
A good blipper will shave seconds off of laptimes. Theres a reason all manufacturers have caught on to both. And while I love riding an early 2000s bike with just electronic ignition, the modern electr. assistants are very valuable and i do not want to miss them (on track or on the road).
As for the death of 600ccs, their main issue was stricter emissions regulation. Euro4/5/6 and similar require(d) a lot of R&D on the 600cc bikes that manufacrurers didnt want to afford. Thats why there are still some 600cc track bikes but no steet legal ones. - see yamaha's R6 race.
"T.V. INTERVIEW WITH REPORTER
Reporter: Good morning Valentino.
Rossi: Good morning. It's a little early for me though, but I am glad to be here with you.
Reporter: Since traction control systems have been allowed to be used in MotoGP there has been a heated debate over whether or not they are a good addition or bad. We brought you here today to see what your opinion is on the topic, because unlike many of the racers today you have been racing in MotoGP before this technology came into motorcycle racing. First, I would like know if you like having traction control on your motorcycle?
Rossi: Having the traction control system makes riding the motorcycle much easier, and allows me to open the throttle more rapidly without launching me into a highside. Unfortunately, it takes away from the rider's natural ability and feel for the motorcycle, and makes it easier for people to compete with those who they couldn't before having this rider aide. It is basically cheating.
Reporter: What do you mean it allows more people to compete with those who couldn't before traction control came out?
Rossi: "There are many different things that affect traction. Learning to manage them all might sound overwhelming at first" (Parks 16), but once you have learned how traction is affected and can be controlled by the rider it makes racing much more exciting. When you have traction control on a motorcycle you can set it up in many different ways, and if you're not as skilled as others you can increase how much the traction control takes over, and this allows some of the rookies and other slower racers to catch up because they are not going to make as many mistakes as they would if they did not have the traction control system.
Reporter: Why do you think MotoGP has allowed traction control systems?
Rossi: Well bottom line is that it provides safety to the riders which is above all the most important thing. Since traction control systems have been introduced there has been about a 60% decrease in high side crashes per year, which results in less injuries and worst of all things death. So, having these systems on these high powered machines is very important. Also, many of the manufacturers are using the knowledge that they get from testing with us and use the engineering and knowledge to put on their public consumer products to give their customers the most advanced technology to date in order to keep them happy.
Reporter: "Imagine you could invent a new motorcycle racing championship, what would your rules be (Cope)?"
Rossi: "Firstly, the right number of competitors is 24 or 26. At the moment, I would keep the four-stroke. It is true that everyone likes the 500cc 2-stroke but the world now unfortunately goes with the four-stroke. I believe the correct displacement is 1000cc, not 800cc with a limit of 16,000 to 17,000 rpm, not 19,000 as it is right now, so that the bikes cannot reach 220mph. In my opinion, 195 mph is sufficient. Then, I would remove a lot of electronics and many tricks that help guiding the bike. It might take a little traction control, a little help, because the bikes would be powerful, but I would like a quarter of electronics we use now. You know, we can now set the power, gas and traction control at every corner, for each gear. The bike knows exactly where it is on track. When taking advantage of the electronics, you can adapt it so that it takes every curve perfectly. I would keep the traction control but it should be fixed, not adaptable to any type of curve.And no anti-surge control, no control on the brakes: so we would see beautiful overtakes, large drifts in the braking zone and good battles during the races. For me, the championship would be better that way (Cope)."
Reporter: Thank you so much for your time today Valentino. Have a great day.
Rossi: You are welcome, and thank you for having me."
I don't want them safer, it contradicts the whole point in riding. I want them to wheelie and spin, but racers get slowed down so they had to homologate or introduce it even in production racing. It was all driven by racing. At a certain point the more power you create in order to go faster becomes uncontrollable by a human. Talking about price is a bit redundant as they are faster than ever so therefore should be more expensive than ever. You can still buy set of original Pilot Powers if you only want to spend $300USD for tyres. It's just progress. We could all ride 1990 FZR1000s and there'd still be the same amount of accidents as now. They need something new to sell you, that's the only thing that's going on here.
Hello, I hope you are still reading comments after 2 months of the video beeing released. I just wanted to apprechiate how calm you speak and explain ein your videos. Most youtube videos nowadays i am struggling to lower the volume without the speaker (in the video) still sounding as if he would scream at me. Because you don't scream as many others do, I really enjoy watching your videos. Thanks
It would be nice if they would perhaps just leave certain bits of technology alone for a couple decades, Bikes were plenty fast 20 years ago. And would be a great tool for everything you need. On the road, not racing. A bike like the KLR gets left alone for 35 years. There are certain bits of technology that can just be plugged in play to bring it slightly forward into the future, but give you plenty of performance.
The prototype s1000rr used r6 bodywork as a test mule.
Hey, that's why I went out and bought a 2015 FZ1. Would it be cool to have all the six-axis tc, other aids and an extra 20hp of a 2022+ MT-10? Of course. BUT 1. I don't need them and 2. it would of been an extra 7k. Got the FZ1 for 7k out the door.
"No electronics. Just BALLS."
"Funny" seeing others complaining about "the cheapest superbike starts at 16k, that's so expensive" when it would cost me 13k to buy a Ninja 650 (not that I'd want to buy that pos lol)
R1M for example is 40,000$ in my country, a V4R is almost 60,000$. However I agree with what you are saying in this video.
same shit in my country, bikes above 175cc are listed as "luxury goods" so gov slams 85% MSRP tax on them, it's crazy
@@huyduongquang1438 Now you know why Americans hate communism.
The price, in 2021 for a Ducati Superleggera here in New Zealand was $138,000 🤣🤣🤣2023 Panigale V4 R? ...$77,500
@@uhtred7860 Yeah some countries are insane. From my little research on this matter I can see that in New Zealand a person makes less money on average yearly than one does in Norway. New Zealand according to my research is at about 50k $ USD, while Norway is about 55-60k$ USD. We have about 35% tax on that and everything here is expensive. So if your country is cheaper to live in generally than Norway and the tax % is less then we are really close to the same cost for a 1000cc motorcycle.
I'm also assuming you were talking $ USD when mentioning pricing and not NZD $ because as I'm sure you know that is way less money.
🤣🤣🤣 My 2002 Kawasaki ZX9RF1 Ninja definitely does not have the electronics. Not sure what I would do with all that electronic stuff anyway. 😁😛😁
I just found a 2013 w/ 8.9k miles for my friend, he’s has it for a week and absolutely loves it! Gotta love the German Gixxers 😌
I am a very new biker but I highly disagree on selling superbikes with no aids unless you only sell them to people with a racing license or something like that. The amount of deadly accidents would skyrocket. I am also very glad that in Europe you actually have now to go for a 48hp or lower bike for 2 years until you can ride big ones. Yes, for the few, reasonable among us it might suck, but it eventually prevents a lot of senseless accidents.
I recently did a wet/Winter training with guy that has 40+ years of exp as a Moto Instructor - opened my eyes to a whole different world. He told me: You will only become better if you are willing to risk falling and actually experience falls.
BMW didn't kill 600. Emissions did.
You want a great bike without all the electronics?
Get an MT-07!
All the fun that you wrist can ever get!
600cc death should be blamed cause of emission control not to blame bmw cause of their electronics 😂
My father had s1000r. It was surprisingly lightweight for its class.
I will forgive BMW because they have the nicest looking sportbike on the market
Right after the Aprilia 😉
Had an MV Augusta F3 & it was raw! No electronic aids or ABS! It was an absolute blast cause it kept you in check. I absolutely adored it. Currently have a 2016 K46 Brentuned & a 2021 NC750X DCT. I adore both since one is super practical for a daily & the other one takes me to the edge of death.
The rider aides brought me back to the sport took me a while to make my ride setup before rolling.
The 2008 Honda CBR 600RR I had was just having the electronic sterring damper. Good thing it had that too for safety and tank slappers. Other than that no electronics or ABS. It was fun and I could adjust the clutch manually for agresive riding. Miss that 600. R6 and Kawasaki ZX6R and Suzuki 600 were great to ride too.
I have a 04 rsv1000r .with unrestricted computer box ..still scares the shit out off me somtimes
Yes i 100% agree with anything that would drop the prices of these machines. opt out of the electronics.. strip everything out .except for front wheel abs.
The thing is, there is no separate "tranction controll module", no "wheelie controll module" etc. The only "extra" is the IMU. All those "electronic aids" are just functions of the ECU playing with the data from ABS sensors (and IMU in "lean sensitive"). It is a side effect of Ride By Wire (which in turn is something that allows for far less complex engine management and saves a lot of money). So if an advanced enough ECU and ABS are onboard, then removing traction controll is just saving a cost of IMU and maybe some development costs (calibration of ECU, since no bike manufacturer does software for ECU, only parametrize them). So 100 bucks maybe?
You would need to develop a second version of a motorcycle based around simplier ECU, but development costs would probably eat up all the savings.
problem is most EU countries are starting to mandate some of the electronics, ABS is a global thing now, and I think the NTSB recommended stability control also become mandatory.
I think this is ok. Abs does save you
Why is that a problem?
@@marcos.1771 have you watched the video? he says electronics is a problem, I am telling him his problem is its becoming mandated
@@wackomedic911 I own a BMW S1000XR model 2022, which is really a computer on two wheels ... if I want to, because I can fine-tune most of its electronics.
Why would the electronics be a problem?
For me, the electronics on my bike is a welcomed solution.
@@marcos.1771 thanks I own a 1250gs streetfigter v4 and a S1000RR 2021, and in all instances I have had some form of electronics save me, or make my ride more fun. it allows me to race a 210hp superbike safely. BUT in the context of the VIDEO, the PROBLEM is that manufacturers maybe CANT do away or introduce cheaper versions any more due to MANDATES by bodies such as the EU.
We have cheaper superbikes with less electronics, it's called buying an older bike.
I had almost the same thoughts, I’m one of those who doesn’t like electronics and especially pay for them in a motorcycles, I wish if they produce a version without them in a cheaper price.
Electronics have somewhat muted my respect for those who buy 1000's, it no longer a badge of honour to ride a big bike.