Glock, Sig Sauer , CZ , STI Staccato 9mm Handgun Test Accuracy LE ammo
Вставка
- Опубліковано 2 вер 2021
- This video is of Various 9mm firearms.
There are 6 guns total being tested on video.
We are testing for repeatability of the guns. Using LE ammo
Repeatability test is always needed. Only then can you test for accuracy.
Fact
You can be accurate but not repeatable
You can be repeatable but not accurate.
We did this test for a independent study for a department who was looking into changing there daily carry. Hope this helps answer the question is it me the gun the ammo. Can this gun be repeatable in my hand Therefore can I then be accurate with the POA,( Point of Aim ) POI ( Point of Impact)
Fact
You can miss at the range but if you miss in real life it is never good.
So is it me the gun or the ammo? Have you ever shot at a soda can at 20 yards and say. I cant believe I missed that. Can your pistol even hold under 1.5" at 20 yards. If it cant, it may increase your chances of missing.
Accuracy matters. Sure many guns can do a occasional 1.5" or sub 1" group but can they do it repeatable. Some guns may have 3 or 4 rounds that group good once in a awhile but not all 8 rounds. And are they Repeatable 8 round? Again and again. What ammo does the gun like. Is it me the gun or the ammo.
We are here to find out. We do not cherry pick the rounds or groups this is real true results in our videos. This is why you may miss that soda can. If you are not testing you are guessing as they say.
First shots and groups shown here. No special formula no tricks out of box stock LE guns with stock LE ammo.
Ransom Rest test for repeatability. The Master Series Rest does not care about the hand grip feel of the gun. It does not care about the trigger pull feel or the trigger finger position or trigger creep.
This test was done at the 15 yard mark. It grouped very well for the distance, and ammo used.
What ammo does your gun like. What ammo do you prefer. Is it me or the gun. Ransom Rest helps you find this out.
This video was compiled for information purposes only and is released publicly as such. Please treat this information properly and in accordance with any local or federal laws. Treat all firearms as if they were loaded and in accordance with you local laws.
We here at Ransom hopes this video will encourage you to look at our Ransom Rest line of testing products.. We hope this video will show you clearly why Ransom Rest is the preferred way to test.
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I'm glad Ransom is pushing their presence again. There was a time when every single gun reviewer had a ransom rest available to give real data on handgun accuracy. These days people just free hand it and who knows what is what. Most people don't even know what these things are even if they should know better. Practically speaking, handgun accuracy doesn't matter that much, but it is interesting data that could lead to important conclusions. I hope more youtubers and gun bloggers buy a ransom rest.
I happen to stumble onto your channel, so glad I found this channel. Very professional and leaving no room for crying or excuses bout accuracy. Love your content!
I love the way that you guys done this video. There is too many gunners out there saying that this gun or barrel is more accurate then another when all it amounts to is what they can shoot better because they hand shoot one gun better than another and that makes it so. Ransom rest is the true accuracy test in my book eliminating many of the human variables that can really affect the accuracy.
Very insightful. I made the same remarks in another video.
Where most people and hunters screw up is that they zero on the warmed up group instead of the cold first shot which is the one that counts.
Great presentation. TY guys. :)
Excellent video! Thank you very much!
Thanks for your research. I had no idea there was such a varenience in functionality of ammunition
In some of those tests you can clearly observe the red dot walking off the original point of aim between shots and as the trigger is being pulled. The reason it’s doing so is irrelevant. If you are testing mechanical accuracy, that is unacceptable. It doesn’t matter why it’s happening. If your goal is to replicate the mechanics of a human firing the gun, a human will (to the best of their ability) correct for a change in point of aim, unlike how you conducted this test. Reset the point of aim to the center of the target after each shot, and if the POA is observably shifting during the trigger pull, find a way to fix it and throw out any data where a shift is observed. The video and camera work itself is great, and the camera view of the sight picture is essential. I love this video and the spirit of your product and the work you’re doing. This is purely constructive criticism and should not be taken as malice.
Thank you for the comment. And attention to detail. However, there are two things you may need to realize in our test procedures. #1 You can discount the first group. Although we measure this group in the video, the gun must settle into the machine. We do discuss this in the video. We also have that info in our manual. POA will deviate as the gun settles period. The gun will move during the first group. The gun must be settled into the machine. We did this test quickly, so we only did one settling group. The second group is the actual test group. #2 The POA shift during the second group (as the trigger is pulled) depends on the slide slop and fitment of the slide. Manly, this shift happens when the trigger gets pulled. The slide does and will shift as the trigger is pressed on some of these polymer guns. This is absolutely so for guns like the M&P or the Sig. You will note the POA move as the trigger is pressed right before the gun goes off. This is common in most polymers and is indicated on machine tests. Sure, some people don't notice this in their hands as much as most USPSA or IDPA shooters note this in their hands and discuss this often.
Some platforms are more acceptable to this movement than others depending on their slide tolerances and lockup, especially with polymer guns. A lot of semi-autos are notorious for this. This is standard information in the competitive world, especially for M&P-style guns. This is why you see that dot move slightly as the trigger is pressed. May be tricking your eyes thinking POA shift. Slide fitment and poly flex trigger poundage all play a part in that. I know from your comment you may realize almost all of that. But keep in mind That's also why most bullseye shooters still run metal frame guns. Not polymer guns. Only a repeatable platform and test reveal this. We initially have our roots in bullseye 50-yard tests. And unless you are a competitive shooter who can note it off-hand, many of them exist. There are also many conversations with competitive shooters about how the POA changes in their hands right before the gun goes off. Drives them crazy.
Thanks for the comment and note. You may not know, but please remember that we have done this since the 60s and are known as the industry standard for testing machines. used by all major gun manufacturers and the Military. In fact, no gun goes into service for the Military or DOJ without a Ransom Rest test. This is just a fast snippet video and test. You may even check out Accuracy X videos on UA-cam with bullseye metal guns out to 50 and 100 yards in a Ransom Rest. That may help you understand what this does. Also, if you can hold any of these guns more accurately than we do here. Please please post a video of that. We would love to see it and watch it. We would give you a thumbs up, especially in real-world off-hand tests. For real-time shooting, please walk down the range and show us your group; please include what ammo you may be using. We love that info in real-time.
I will leave you with this. The NRA magazine said that guns and ammo have gotten more accurate since Ransom invented the Rifle and handgun bench rests. NRA said they used to coin phrases like that man is a walking Ransom Rest. And as Whiley Clapp said, in guns and ammo, some say they can outshoot the Ransom, but I would love to see anyone outshoot a Ransom Rest. Once again, thank you so much for your comment, and I hope this helped you. Ransom Rest duplicates the human hand and is repeatable to the end user. We appreciate the feedback.
Best under subbed channel Eva
Love these by the way. I shoot 1911's mostly, and have a pair of P-210's. I am an accuracy nut. My best offhand group with the 210 is .414 at 20 yards for 5 rounds. Thanks for making these video comparisons!!!!!
Inches
Wow, that's insane.
Video or it didn't happen
What ammo did you use?
HST I think. Don't rightly remember.
impressed with the mechanical accuracy of the p320 - got rid of mine, but maybe should have given it a chance
I got rid of mine, too. It's a good shooter, but personally, I just can't trust it. There's too much smoke around the P320 system.
@@grantorino2009 they fixed those issues with the upgraded trigger system if you watch a review on UA-cam you can see a couple videos showing the upgraded fix.
2 questions what kind of ammo was used in the video and what was the barrel length for the p320. Great video btw you earned a subscription
Wow this was impressive science
Love Calvin pissing on the Caldwell Rest.
The most accurate 9mm I own is a Springfield Range Officer Target that I extensively tweeked. It surpasses my P210.
I really wanna see you guys do a czechmate and compare it to the staccato.
My nighthawk trs comp put a 1" group at 25 yards with hornady ammo! Definitely one of the most satisfying moments at the range.
Suuuuuure it did
@@scottsmith31 well, it was a one shot group 😂
Older Gen 3 Glock 17 was impressive as heck.
The Glock seemed to throw a wild one on both groups.
I wish they had revealed the velocities since the visual velocities vere nor very clear. However, awesome video.
What model Staccato did you test? Is this the model p, or xl?
Would like to see you run a stock M&P M2.0 vs an M2.0 with an Apex barrel.
We may have to do that. APEX are good friends of ours right down the hill from us. I know the APEX barrel in the 45 M&P makes a world difference I am not sure if they make one for the 9. I will need talk with them to find out. Thank you for the input and comment.
What is the barrel size of the M&P 2.0 and the P320? TIA
Did You ever tested the HK VP9 or VP9L
They did not have the right grip insert for the 2011, right?
Was the LE ammo different brands/loadings between the 2 tests? Cause that 1st vs 2nd group on the staccato is very noticeable.
No it was the same ammo, this difference is why we try not to base our opinions by small sample sizes or one group. Although in this exact situation on the staccato, It took few more rounds to settle in the gun especially since we did not use the Staccato insert, We spoke of this in the video and explained that i believe. We actually used a Mccormic grip insert, and we had a rubber band around the grip safety of that gun. Procedure is we usually do one full group to settle the gun and then two groups for the test.
In this case due to the time we had available and how many guns we did that day, you can absolutely discount the first 8 shots as settling the gun in the grip insert. This is standard procedure. I realize for us, we are pretty good and know how to mount gun so typically the first group is not actually settling and we do measure the group, but procedure is first group is usually discounted. in case of staccato and the rubber band it is clearly settling group for the gun. May also check out the Staccato video we did with Ursala Willimas, that video is available on our channel. It is a more compressive test with various ammo. And it uses the Staccato grip insert. Thank you for your question and your interest in this. Hope this info helps. Any questions let us know.
its funny how the hand racked load isn't as close to where the sight is almost all the time.
What is the ammunition you’re shooting for this test?
Like the name of this site.
Really like your work! But I have to voice a concern of mine. With a lot of polymer handguns you can see the red dot moving in the sight right before the shot breaks. The polymer seems to flex under the pressure of the trigger pull and is compromising the test. If you look at 6:25 to 7:00 in the video you see the red dot moving around like crazy before the shots are going off. I don´t know a fix to this problem but the precision test for Polymer handguns will not be an accurate representation of the mechanical precision of the guns. (I am not a fan of polymer frames but i want to be objective)
Polymers do flex you won't see this in your hand as you are making accommodations for it. Metal frames also flex just not as much. Aomw od hi ia th frame but actually some of it is also the trigger pressure and spring internally. You can see this wen using a test platform, the results become evident. Even a 10 x 50 I beam will flex when a fly lands on it this is an old engineering fraise. So as the trigger spring compresses the frame and gun also move or flex internally as well as slide location changes That said. The trigger will break the shot the same each time. You may also be seeing grip insert flex. Remember our grips also absorb and move just like the human hand does. This is why you don't over tighten the gun in the insert. It is also why the ransom rests breaks the shot like the hand does. Keep in mind it military says the Ransom Rest is the only machine that is duplicatable by the end user. This has been proven time and time again. This is also why no handgun model goes into service for the military or DHS without a Ransom Rest test. One other thing you need to consider as the trigger gets pulled the tension on the round and slide changes also changing where the slide is for slopy slides and guns. Lots to consider, but also keep in mind this is why guns have got more accurate " since the 60s since the conception of the Ransom Rest pistol and rifle rests " as quoted from Rifleman and Guns and Ammo magazine.
Good eye. I noticed it too. Ransomrest did a pretty good job explaining it. However, I would like to see the trigger activation be a linear pull rather than on a rotating (radius?) pull. Not sure if that would have any effect at all but it seems like a logical thing to look at.
Sig P320 clear winner , good to see that with a very accurate test
Do a FN 509 tac
Is this 20 yard test or 25 yard
Czechmate vs staccato por favor.
The second gun with the optic on it, you can see some movement in the dot as the trigger hits the wall…
Some semi-autos do this, and the M&P is also notorious for that. As the trigger pulls and the slide locks up, the dot moves slightly, right before the gun goes off. Most IDPA competitive shooters using an M&P or similar models that have clearance in the slide note this in their hands as well. These are not match-grade guns. Slide slop and lock-up have a lot to do with this. Drives us and many IDPA USPA competitors crazy.
exactly why I own a Staccato
I didn't see anything impressive about those groups. I have a TRP 1911 that cost me $1300 and it shoots tighter groups than that Staccato.
I think that first group is a settling group
Human racking slide has different accuracy than recoil racking.. that is bit concerning for good accuracy.. is there is any solution to avoid that problem..
That issue is not seen on all guns. Also seems after some break in time or couple hundred rounds the hand rack flyer round becomes less evident on some models. We will be doing a video on this soon.
So should you fire the first round after you load it then pull the magazine and top it off before you carry it?
I didn't watch the whole thing but I assume it's to avoid setback?
Staccato The Best 🥇🏆🤸🏻♂️
Should be for the price.
This is very short range. Would like to see results at 20 metres
What distance is this
What are you using for trigger pull?
We are using the Cable Remote trigger upgrade for the Master Series Ransom Rest. Thanks for asking.
New to your channel are you saying that the point of aim/ impact is different on your first shot or this is only while it is in the rest and needs to settle, hopefully the latter. Great video and thank you for your time and effort
For some guns and barrels they can have a first round flyer. The forces applied seating the bullet when it is hand racked is not the same forces applied when the gun auto cycles. So sometimes the gun or gun model, will have what I call a hand rack flyer. This flyer is seen in machine and out of machine. The Ransom Rest shows this issue in the gun. This flyer may be why you miss that first shot at the soda can. Please understand this is only with some guns. For clarification for some guns this flyer is very specific and repeatable . you can see it every hand rack. Some models it can be sporadic or intermediate. And some guns not at all. Some say the gun may need broke in. some say slide recoil spring change. Other say slide lug. Regardless why it is clear the bullet did not seat the same therefore the flyer on hand rack or slide drop. I have seen difference in flyer on hand rack and slide drop. On some models. As mentioned some do not display this. Some are very consistent with a hand rack flyer. No gun is the same no barrel is the same. If you not testing your guessing. My friend I hope this helps. And strange what you learn from a repeatable test platform isn't it. That's why basically every firearm manufacturer uses a Ransom Rest.
What’s the distance you’re testing at?
In the description it shows 15 yards
put new mag then drop slide. Then lower the ransom rest, you may find “hand rack flyer” is gone
This is not so. good comment and you may think that from a distance. But please remember you are speaking to the ones who made the ransom Rest.
When looking at 6:27 to 6:28 at ¼ the speed it looks like the dot is moving when you start to pull the trigger?
This observation is correct the slide and dot appear to move when you touch the trigger on some polymer guns. This is not entirely uncommon especially on the thinner polymer lowers like on a Glock gen3. Same as when you slowly pull the trigger the gun and slide flex on these polymers. Most likely why glock made the gen 5s thicker as well as some companies today infuse the polymer with tungsten or other material to stiffen the polymers up. In these situations, the gun does break the shot the same each time and the dot movement may not be noticed in your hand. but POI would be noted. The trigger break is repeatable on these models though. We have also noted some of them point differently with a loaded chamber vs unloaded chamber. This is not typically seen unless you are on a repeatable platform like the world-famous Ransom Rest. As you well know Polymers do flex and move there is something about adding the tension of the trigger and spring pull. Even this load and tension on the plastic lower causes the slide to move slightly under load or tension. Sometimes also seen in light rifle stocks as well, hence trigger hold or ready position or trigger take up during long range shooting. This flex and movement may also be why most steel frame guns have a tighter precision then polymers. Same as heaver stock rifles perform better at further distances. You see this in action with most competition shooters still largely run metal frame guns or thicker guns. EDC you want light and portable. Flex is real. There was an older video of Glock firing slow motion, this was years and years ago. Test was in a Ransom Rest by applied ballistics and the Glock or let's say polymers kind of turns into a wet spaghetti noodle under high-speed video during firing. May also be why the felt recoil is dampened on polymers. Newer models are thicker and stiffer than the older polymers. Hope this helps. Ask any question you have and thank you for the comment.
@@Ransomrest As the bar that engages the trigger and moves rearward, does it also move upward slightly?
@@steve586586 That really depends on how you set it up but I suppose it could. If this is a concern the trigger finger also has a bearing option. So any up or down concern is alleviated by using the roller bearing. May mention if you have doubts still that since the 60s this has been tried and true, tested and proven. And Military calls the Ransom Rest the industry standard for accuracy testing. . Not because they say it is so, and not because we say it's so, it is only because it has been tried and true and proven correct. If you or anyone can yield a better 8 to 16 shot group we love to see it on video. I am sure you are aware no barrel is the same, no gun is the same. This is why we make the machine so you or others can test their gun themselves. Even if sequential serial #s they may not be the same or even like the same ammo. May see Handloader Tv and there tests for that. But as they say if you're not testing your guessing is it you the gun the ammo. We feel all these stock models in this test performed above the standard repeatability that we have seen those models perform in most cases.
But different ammo ammo groups differently.
Absolutely. And if you ever watch our channel or videos, you must know we say that in every video all the time. Infact your barrel and gun will be different than mine even if it's the same gun model. Thats why you need a Ransom Rest. That said this was actually with and for Phoenix Swat team and they only run one type of ammo so this test is relevant to them or others that may run similar models and ammo. As you know you should absolutely test your own gun and ammo. This is why every gun manufacturer uses the Ransom Rest. Its proven. This is also why no gun goes into service for Military or FBI without a Ransom rest test. So when Sig won the contract it was a Ransom Rest doing the test. Same when Berreta won it was Ransom Rest doing the test. The NGSW program was also tested on the Ransom Rifle tester. We been here since the beginning, and we are the original American Made Rifle and Pistol Rest company. As we say many rests may look like our original Rifle or pistol rest, but we are the original American made rest company before the China green ones or almost anyone else. We designed and invented the tri leg Rifle bench rest Rifle Master, and the handgun bench rests and the testing machines that you see here. We are glad you found us and hope this info helps. Any questions let us know. Please follow the channel looking forward to more dialog with you.
Cz bad ass
Odi longnecks are fire grips😊😂
Glock is a Glock
I did not think the Staccato was a clear winner over the Sig.
For the algo d8^)
I gotta be honest... these aren't really precise.. I don't know if it's the gun or the rest... but I thought that these were more precise than that. Better use my hand tho.
True but to be honest , they are not match grade guns, these are stock police issue. Nothing on these are called precision suppose you can say they really called duty weapons. Seen a lot worse
Handguns are not precision weapons. Even if we just look at the ammunition, consider most handgun round charges are 5 grains, while an intermediate rifle round is 25 grains. This means that any deviation in charge throw for a handgun leads to 5x greater deviation than the same charge throw error in a rifle round.
These are police duty weapons. This is fabulous accuracy considering their mission. We live in a time when we can have anything we want and it's basically guaranteed to shoot amazingly. Be happy.
Wow! Random's speech pattern & rhythm sounds so ROBOTIC 🤖 👾!! ... Is he??😮😅😅😳
That staccato must be a lemon. We did this with staccato P and it did better than the 320 even. Call staccato and send them this footage. They’ll swap the gun for you because that’s unacceptable for a $2500 pistol. 320s aren’t bad but aren’t great by any means. They’re like a Glock but with a crappier bore axis.
It may do better with other ammo. This test was of law enforcement ammo. no barrels are the same no gun like the same ammo. This is not a bad result at all. 3/4-inch hole is actually pretty impressive from a stock gun and stock ammo. Polymer staccatos don't usually group better then metal frame 2011 or Accuracy X 1911 race guns. and a P can do better than the C. This one beat the P320 that was clear. It actually beat all the polymers in this test, with that ammo. Just because it was 3/4 at 15 or 20 don't mean it would be larger than 2" at 50. and 2" at 50 is still nothing to shy from. I'd love to see anyone do 8 rounds at 3/4 inch at 15 yards off hand on video and then tell me their gun is better. And remember the Military says the Ransom Rest is the only machine that is duplicatable to the end user. So, you should be able to duplicate this off hand.