Are you able to switch back to staggered layout pretty easily? Is it possible to use Ortho at home and then go back to regular elsewhere and not have issues once you've learned Ortho fully?
It's still more ergonomic than a staggered board, it just doesn't resolve all the issues without the split. I currently use a split ortho 40% as my daily driver but 3 years before that i started w/ a 40% non-split ortho board and it significantly improved finger fatigue for long programming sessions because i didn't have to make wild reaches for symbols. it still suffers from forcing you into a should hunch and some wrist angling, though it's less egregious on my wrists than staggered boards. i think they're a good transitional board between non-split and split
Some things worth noting about ergonomic keyboards... 1. Ortholinear keyboards are typically columnar, but good ergonomic keyboards should have row stagger. (If you put your hands in a natural resting position their should be a curve to your finger placement). Row linear layouts increase the risk of "trigger finger" and is not a good design. 2. The wrist strain you are explaining sounds like RSI from "Ulnar Deviation". This is something fixed by a split keyboard layout, but has nothing to do with columnar keyboard ergonomics. My speculation is that your wrist pain had more to do with not using your pinkies when typing which, on a non-split keyboard that already causes bad ulnar deviation, would dial those extensions (where you should be using your pinkies) to 11. 3. The other wrist related RSI would be extension (your wrists being arched up instead of straight on the keyboard). You should consider a wrist rest for your keyboard since many of the ones you show have a fairly high profile which makes them terrible ergonomic keyboards. This is why many people like apple keyboards so much: their thin profile minimizes wrist extension which is usually the most common type of RSI people experience since the strain exists even when you are resting your hands and not actively typing. 4. Ergonomic keyboards should have a natural tenting angle to prevent pronation (this would be the weird curved hump you see in most "ergonomic keyboards"). This is also why split keyboards tend to have adjustable feet for angling them closer to a 'natural' hand shaking position. It is also why "ergonomic mice" are vertical. In conclusion, every keyboard you showed in that video had absolutely terrible ergonomics. They look cool, but if someone actually cares about minimizing RSI they should pass on all of these. It is important to identify what type of strain is causing discomfort and choose a keyboard that minimizes that. For Ulnar Deviation you should look at split keyboards. For wrist extension you should look at moving your keyboards further away, getting a good wrist rest, etc. For pronation you should get a keyboard that rotates the resting position of your hand closer to the position of a handshake (Such as the Logitech ERGO K860). If you have finger pain or "trigger finger" than it may be worth exploring an ortholinear layout, but don't expect it to move the needle that much. If that is something that really bothers you, than you should really consider biting the bullet on learning an ergonomic keyboard layout such as Dvorak, Workman, or Colemak-DH. The best of all worlds would be keyboards like the Glove-80, the Kinesis Advantage 360, the ZSA Voyager/Moonlander, etc. These are all very expensive keyboards, but that's the price to have it all.
Ok so I'm not insane. Like your hands and fingers aren't straight they curve and stuff, how can this possibly be more ergonomic than a regular keyboard where it seems better suited for curved fingers.
@@theflawedamy Ergonomic keyboards often stagger keys, but not in the way QWERTY does it. Typically a lot less aggressive. They’ll also offset the keys to the left instead of the right for the left side of the keyboard. Ortholinear can be quite comfortable, but it depends on how the whole keyboard is put together. The Glove80, for example, curves the keyboard around your hands.
@@theflawedamy They are relatively straight. Put your hand in a "handshake" (neutral) position, and open and close your grip like you're Spider-Man - but with all of your fingers, instead of just the web-shooter-activating ones. Don't fight the natural tension of your hands/don't dramatically splay your fingers (move them apart) in order to prove your point - just move them real quick. Your fingers are moving on a relatively linear path. Not perfectly linear, but close enough. When that person said that the rows should be staggered, I don't think they mean like a regular keyboard - I think they mean that the keyboard should be "cupped", or bowl shaped. Google: "Dactyl Manuform Keyboard". For each finger, there is a "max reach/max retract" distance (you pinky can't reach as far as your middle finger, for example, so the "top" key for each finger shouldn't be the same distance from the base of your hand), and the top and bottom rows should be angled toward where the pad of your finger would land, because that's how curling digits land on things when reaching/retracting - not straight down.
the OG planck layouts make no sense. I moved the shift tab row and the enter keys into the middle. Planck required you to use layer shift anyway, and to make the most out of it you have to embrace the layers. Ben Valleck have some nice videos on alternative planck layouts with layers
i wouldnt call an ortho keyboard "ergonomic" because it still has your wrists bent in a way that produces ulnar deviation, along with forearm pronation due to your wrists being flat parallel to your desktop. the keys not being staggered reduces neither of these strains on your wrists, and simply provides a comfort that is very much individual based. a tented split ergo keyboard is something to look into if you want an actual ergonomic keyboard.
@@VincentFree yeah that is true, ortho split boards have good merit to them because some of them have the rows laid out in a way where all the rows are equal distance from your fingers
Something like the Helix is a good example. It's split yet ortholinear. I personally like the Atreus 62 for the compactness and angled design, although it's not purely ortholinear; the columns are staggered.
I got the moonlander, the pre-made one, it sure takes long time to learn but with a 3d printed higher base, it's so much more comfortable to use than normal staggered mechanical
always seemed to me that he was deep into custom mechs but avoided channel coverage because he knows its a pricey rabit hole. which doesnt entirely fit with the products he chooses to cover where price to performance is usually a factor
Yeah, the process of switching to the Colemak DH layout from QWERTY was pretty difficult. You’re constantly having to fight against muscle memory until you can overwrite it with the new layout. I do want to get an ortholinear keyboard at some point though.
My personal take is that apart from looks, there isn't much of an ergonomic advantage with these type of ortho keyboards. Just splitting the board alone would massively improve ergonomics. Id love to see you try something like a dactyl, or even just a corne / lily / kyria / etc
Corne would be a much easier jump from an ortho 40, especially compared to going from standard to ortho 40. 60% column stagger is where I think most people would be happiest with, though I only have a Corne.
For those of you that live near a Microcenter and wanting to try this keyboard layout, they sell an Orthlinear keyboard for $40, the Inland 47-Key Mechanical Keyboard. Great little keyboard, that has RGB and hot swappable switches.
Dang it. I just got back from a road trip, and I'm just now seeing that the town we went to had a Microcenter... like, two blocks from where we were. Had I read this comment yesterday, I'd be testing out a new keyboard right now. And also have explored a Microcenter, which just sounds like a good time. I mean, I don't think ortholinear is very ergonomic (more than standard, but less than many other layouts/keyboards out there), but it would still be fun to have/mess around with for a bit.
@@avonireLayers literally make numbers easier to type than on keyboards with separate number keys. Instead of reaching two rows up, I hold a thumb key and have the numbers on the home row where my fingers already are.
@@avonireGuess you never type CAPITALS or symbols. It’s much faster typing EvEN in WEIrd mIXes oF CApS because it’s very practical, compared to reaching up to f-keys, numpad, etc. Compare this with fiddling with far away keys.
There are much more ergonomic keyboards such as the corne (also 42 keys) these keyboards adds a couple of changes to the planck: - Each of the rows for the fingers is staggered to consider the different lengths of each finger - The keyboard is split so that you can place the halves further apart to avoid being cramped - The thumb keys curve outwards
Great report on your experience learning the ortholinear layout. I did the same journey myself, with the much larger Moonlander columnar split keyboard. I also have a Planck, but I think it's too small for my hands. I prefer to have them spread across the table a bit more. That being said, I was already a good typist, using all my fingers mostly correctly. I knew it would be painful, and I knew it would require massive commitment, but I am also very anxious and impatient. I trained for a full weekend, more than 24 hours straight. And I was able to increase from the low 20s to around 80 wpm, which is already a very usable speed. Than I continued to train using websites like Monkeytype for the next few days until reaching my upper 90s again. It does take a while, you really have to commit, but it is doable. I was 44 years old when I did the jump, and I was successful. Since then I moved to smaller layouts like the Corne keyboard. Nowadays I am using the ZSA Voyager variant. It's almost perfect for me.
Sure, columnar split ergo boards would be easier to type on, but this already has better ergonomics than ANSI/ISO layouts. Consider this: If you need to use arrow keys, you need to put your hand on the side and then back on the home row. If you made a mistake, you need to shift your entire right palm to reach the Backspace key. If you need to hit Esc, same thing. Pinkies have a lot of keys on them, and most of them require shifting your entire hands, while your two thumbs share only one key, so each pinky has 12-17 keys, while the thumbs have 0.5 keys. Thumbclusters are one of the best ways to improve ergonomics, if a split ergo columnar board doesn't have thumb clusters, it's not that ergo anymore.
@@aebisdecunter the main problem is with the linearity of the rows and the columns, though. Fingers are not equally long and perfectly next to each other. Then what key is bound where is a completely different question.
@@susseduud Columar stagger and concave keywells certainly offer better comfort, but ortho is better than row staggered keyboards, especially bigger ones (TKL, 104 key) without layer support.
@@Dave2D haha same advice like your friend mentioned for switching to ortho! just gotta keep at it until you can reach your regular speed and now i enjoy typing in dvorak more as the hand alternation makes typing much more enjoyable in my opinion
@@TaehaTypes I just heard/read somewhere about it, mod was created in 2015 i think they have different styles for ANSI, ISO, ORTHO... when you look into hot map, you will see something like this: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ * * * * - - * * * * - - - * - - * - - -
I think Dave is confusing two things here: the reason his wrists don’t feel sore isn’t because the board is ortholinear, but because it’s a small 40% board that doesn’t require you to move your wrists as much. A staggered 40% keyboard would have the exact same benefit. Ortho is mainly an aesthetical difference.
Kinesis Advantage 2 has literally changed my life, highly recommend for those with early onset conditions - took me about a month to fully acclimate but it was worth it and my pain is completely gone. That being said I really cannot imagine this brick in the video being much of a comfort upgrade than a standard keyboard, seeing his hand position is painful.
Columnar-aligned keys reduces "reaching", which decreases fatigue some amount, but, yeah, split keyboards reduce ulnar deviation, which is a much bigger problem. Add tenting to reduce wrist pronation, and wrist rests to ensure your wrists are straight, to reduce wrist extension, and boom - pretty much a perfect typing experience. Some optimizations can be had, at that point, with a Dactyl layout, then a Manform structure, and then lighter key switches with shorter throw. *Then* it would be ultimate. ... I need to fix my 3D printer and get back on the project that I bought the thing for: making the keyboard i just described.
Welcome to ortho keyboard. I started using ortho due to my finger/wrist issues a few years ago. Adapting to the layout was stupidly difficult, but once i got used to it, the pain was gone.
Naturally there’s a divergence of keyboard users where on one side you have people who type like literally pages of pages each day over hours literally using all keys to form words, and those who mainly use keyboards with hotkeys in repetitive workflows such as CAD users or number heavy lines of work. A single style of keyboard such as orthos will eventually diverge naturally as it adapts to the style of the user. You can’t give an accountant a gamer focused keyboard, a video editor a writer’s keyboard etc it just wouldn’t work. It can even hurt the user over time.
Your journey with the Ortho keyboard was really captivating. Making the shift from the traditional to a completely new layout, chipping away at years of muscle memory. Testament to the strength of human adaptability.
Another big benefit to ortho is that most keys are 1x1. That means you can just replace keys you don't use. Like I'd happily toss out caps lock or my right shift key, but I can't because those are larger than other keys.
Definitely give the ZSA Voyager a shot! Columnar layout with thumb clusters and split layout. As a software engineer, this keyboard removed my RSI and is the most ergonomic keyboard I've used so far.
I love that you tried ortho! I'm an ortho user myself. I would say, however, that it's *not* inherently more *ergonomic*. The real benefits are, as I see them: - Muscle memory. Columns are in proper columns instead of shifty diagonals, making it simpler to know exactly which key you are reaching for. - Size. That Planck you have demonstrates this pretty well. - The ability to map a numpad or other grid-oriented layouts to a function key and not have the stagger make it weird. Oh also, I think people who touch type (use their pinkies and adhere to the proper columns) will have an easier time with the transition. That's just my anecdotal observation. As for why you're feeling less strain when using ortho, are you perhaps touch typing now? I wonder if touch typing is inherently easier on the wrists.
Dave, I got a blank ortho split keyboard last week (a Sofle), and managed to get to 95 wpm on QWERTY layout now. It does take time to get back up to speed (although there's still speedbumps when typing keys in other layers), and I'm currently experimenting with Colemak DH layout. you should definitely try split keyboards, i'm now currently intrigued with keyboards with keyballs (attached trackballs), or even scroll encoders.
The Qwerty layout is also designed to space out letters commonly used in the english language to minimize the risk of jamming the typewriter. The Dvorak layout is specifically designed to maximize typing speed. but for the same reason as mentioned in the video, it is unlikely to replace Qwerty.
Me too 🤝 I also committed to learn a new keyboard layout (Engram) straight away. I'm at 15 wpm and it's very painful 😅 But I'm 100% convinced it's going to be a game changer in the long run.
I type normally around 110-115 with 1 to 3 max mistakes, but after seeing this video, it now makes sense about the even column / even row set up.. Definitely going to try ASAP. Thanks Dave!
Eh, probably not worse than a full size/standard layout. Luckily, not nearly as much of a jump to get used to a split column stagger proper ergo board.
So happy that a mainstream tech UA-camr is talking about orthopedic boards. I’ve been using boards like these for 5 or so years and have moved into more strange looking split boards in the later years and I really believe they don’t get enough love. More talk about these will hopefully help with the prices so I can convince more friends to get into these. Aiming for a future where one day all laptops have ortholinear layouts as well 👍🏼
Dave, I hope you don’t feel like all the people recommending split keyboards are trying to discredit you. Moving from row stagger to ortholinear is a step toward the world of ergo keyboards that shouldn’t be ignored! I think this is a good keyboard video to make. However, everyone including me is commenting about this to help you continue on this path toward ergonomics and minimal finger movements, and definitely the next step is to try out split, columnar keyboards. Hope I’ll be seeing a follow up soon :) PS there’s a lot of more affordable options out there! Glad you’re bringing this to the mainstream as well
You should give the Dygma Defy a run for its money. I have been using that for a month now, and I’m never going back to a traditional keyboard. The defy is soooo comfortable once you get used to it. Especially with tenting.
I use an Ortho layout (in fact I'm typing this on one I designed myself in KiCAD) and I'll honestly say that the time commitment wasn't as crazy as I expected when I picked up my first Planck kit. After about a week I had my accuracy back, and after about two weeks, I had my speed back to go with it. While I do still type on staggered keyboards (mostly laptops, at work), I can't imagine going back to one full time. The lack of hand fatigue from long typing sessions on this is worth the price of time you pay to get comfortable with it.
Imagine you've learned to use this layout, but you still have to use the regular keyboard on you laptop or some other device, switching between the two. That sounds like fun.
I swear the timing on this video was crazy. Either that day or the day before it dropped, I found myself wishing keyboards had not evolved from type writers, rather on their own, and that if they had they probably would have been in a grid layout. I grew up with and type fast on old keyboards, but they have never satisfied my OCD desire to have my tech tools in order & sleek. More to the point, old keyboards do not serve well for replacement keys when hacking in advanced keyboard combos depending on which applications I am using, and having a grid system would fit more varied use cases. Then instantly I see this video and am introduced to such a keyboard. Thank you Dave for presenting my manifestation. EDIT: WHOA! Dave said exactly what I said in the last 2 minutes of the video, I should have finished the video before leaving the comment 🤓
It is actually counter ergonomic by placing the keys straight in a row. Cause your fingers extends in an angle in natural position not straight like a fork
Finally ortholinear layouts made it into mainstream! Been using ZSA PlanckEZ (has per key RGB, and great web interface to customise your layout) for years now - loved it right away, as I’ve always been an absolute hater of staggered layouts. It hit me when I was learning to blind type, and trying to make myself not use left thumb to press C - I looked into why why have 3 keys per finger to use, but they are all staggered to the left. Hope much more of this makes into mainstream, and big brands start to offer ortholinear choice at least. Can’t wait for the next video on split, columnar (ortholinear, but keys are staggered vertically for finger length) - that’s when true ergonomics starts! Ben Wallack on youtube made a great series of videos about typing ergonomics, he dives deep into QMK, starting from PlanckEZ, and Moonlander, ending designing and assembling his own split ergo keyboard d.
A split (2 parts + a numpad if needed) Ortho layout + Hall effect Switches + either a display on each key that changes with the layers or a app that visually shows the layers on screen is my dream.
I got an Ortho keyboard (the Planck EZ - since discontinued), a couple years ago. The transition was instant, no pain in trying to switch over from the staggered layout for me. So YMMV.
all you're saying make a lot of sense, and i did consider switching to an ortholinear in the past. the main problem is that either you use JUST AND ONLY your OL keyboard or it'll be a constant mess with the muscle memory. i could theoretically use an ortho with the pc in my office, but what about my laptop at home? and what if i have to go to another office and work with the pc of a colleague? you make all the effort to change your muscular habits, and then every time you can't use it is a mess again...
Well in my thirties, I switched to a split ergonomic keyboard a couple of years ago. It's not quite ortholinear, but the columns are staggered rather than the rows in order to better line up with your fingertips. It took me about two weeks to get back to my old speed, but to be fair I wasn't that fast before. In terms of ergonomics though, I think split is definitely the way to go, especially if you have broad shoulders.
ortholinear keyboards are less ergonomic. They force you to pull your elbows closer your body for your fingers to line up with their linear layout, opposed to the more natural angled layout your fingers line up with when your elbows are in a more natural resting position. ortholinear keyboards look neat, but are not comfortable. if you still want to try a ortholinear keyboard, I'd suggest the Creator Board by Work Louder, it's the most impressive one I've tested to date.
As Dave discovered and stated, your hands, wrists, don't move much if you do it right, it's just your fingers that dance a little bit, and then, not much either. Even less if you go with Colemack DHm or other than QWERTY where you dance the most. And if you do not have the keyboard pulled up close to your belly, your wrists stay in a relatively comfortable enough position and again, just don't move until you reach for your coffee. Unless you are already dealing with RSI issues, the bend your wrists make with this is not any deal at all to overhype. Been using mine for 3 years without even a peep. No trouble at all. Tis a Planck, not organically shaped or especially a posterchild of ergonomics, but small enough to not be an issue.
I think it’s true that if we designed a keyboard today, it might be an ergo split ortho type thing. It’s also true that ortho-ness hardly matters at all, for ergonomic or speed properties. Learners would have fewer hiccups on an ortho, but once those key locations are drilled into your muscle memory, staggered and ortho are functionally identical.
Got V1 Max and installed my preferred Gateron G Pro 3.0 Yellow switches from my older K2 V2. Originally I ordered with Gateron Jupiter Banana switches which I didn't like, think I am more in to linear. Now I have ordered TTC Frozen Silent V2 switches, which should arrive in a weeks time, and am hoping it will make my keyboard much more silent and enjoyable, not just for typing but also for gaming. As per mods I did the following: 1. Removed the original foam from the board and instead used 4mm Practik Base for vibration/sound dampening (orange) and 5mm STP Biplast sound insulator (black). Both are used in automotive and sound industries. 2. Added Poron switch pads 0.5mm on top of PET sheet 3. Tape mod with 2 layers 4. Added Poron 0.5mm pads under stabs and the stems, and re-lubricated the stabs as well (was thinking of changing them to Durock V2, like I did on my K2 V2, but these stocks look good) 5. Added O-rings between the bottom and the top case where screws go in. 6. Changed to Cherry PBT Double-Shot Dark Blue/Black keycaps set (usually comed with Xinmeng A66 keyboards)
I love it when you listen to your friends advice and find out the reason and improved upon it, you were not feisty to post the bad review but you find find out whats wrong with you, love it, love your reviews, keep going 😊
An ergo ortholinear keyboard would be a slight V shape so that the wrists are not compressed . The true reason you've adapted to 3 finger typing is to avoid wrist compression by moving your "home row" hand positions outward to ASD KL; It also helps with adaptation to different keyboard sizes. But I digress, or not really, lol because my next point is that the whole reason QWERTY layout persists is that even if everyone knew it sucked from efficiency and ergo perspective, and were prepared to learn other layouts... we remain uncommitted because we don't want to handicap ourselves when faced with the reality of all the keyboards we will be forced to deal with due to workplace and manufacturer standards. So the standard QWERTY physical layout will persist until wireless BCI (brain computer interface) to foreign devices becomes ubiquitous. And mercifully, that's only one generation away.
Dave, gotta say man, love your videos! they're appealing to me even when I'm not considering shopping for the product. Respect your opinions because they're very logical and scientific. You didn't just take a dump on this stupid keyboard immediately like most would have done but really took a deep dive into the true nature and intended purpose of the product. I like any youtuber who really understands their audience and role and you're one of the best man. Keep the videos coming!
Thanks Dave. Welcome to the ortho club. Been using ortho for years. In time switching from one to another gets easier. I’m trying to learn steno from a ortho too, just allow chording and bind a different layer.
I've been curious for so long about these "Doys" keycaps. I couldn't find anything online about them; barely a photo of them on keyboards. Thank you for making a video on them. Clears up so much confusion!
Check out split ortho's, specifically split 36 key orthlinear keyboards. Ortho's, and split ortho's made learning a new layout MUCH easier because I wasn't fighting a lifetime of staggered QWERTYY. I took
As someone who still has trouble using keyboards (except my phone keyboard) I can say this grid layout makes a lot lot more sense than the usual typewriter keyboards, I hate how I have to tilt my macbook so I can write on the staggered layout where one wrist is rotated in the abnormal direction and even then I have to look at the keys I type and still make mistakes Appul is one of the most influential keyboard makers (due to their mac) and they have the power to change to the better, more sane keyboard layout
Info for you: I bought a Vortex Core Keyboard a long time ago which is 40%. It took me about a week to get to grips with it and since then I've been using it every day and I love it. So it's worth spending some time on such small keyboards at the beginning.
You might have mentioned different keyboard layouts like Dvorak, which was made because we no longer needed to keep often-used keys apart to prevent jamming typewriters.
I make way to many typing mistakes when using a regular layout, and despite having larger hands, i actually struggle with reaching certain keys. I feel like this kind of layout would help immensely with accuracy and my poor wrists. I’ll look into trying out these kinds of keyboards and see if its for me
I have never been a fan of small keyboard and always thought that sacrificing keys just for aesthetics was a little dumb, but this video kind of convinced me that there are practical benefits to a smaller keyboard.
Corne with chocs, split, ortho, ergo, blank keys. Way smaller and more portable, 32 layers, can be tented and moved apart for way more ergo comfort. You are heavily pronated on a 1 piece keyboard, splitting it solves this and lets you angle the halves to whatever works for you or even tent if you want to.
i love ortho layout! i really want there to be more out there. Its an even better layout when its in a split formfactor! I do think you struggled to get used to it because you don't type "properly" not using your pinkys to type for 30 years of typing experience would lead me to believe ortho style would be very difficult! Nice video, cheers!
When I switched to using a Planck, I also switched to using the Colemak layout, so I could learn a more ergonomic layout while also switching to ortho. It seemed easier to me in hindsight. Within a week or two I had gone from about 10wpm back up to my normal 90wpm.
For real typing comfort, try a split ortho keyboard, a 36 key layout using layers and a different key layout like colemak. Might take a while to get used to,practice 15mins per day until comfortable enough to swap full time. Many keyboard options out there like the advantage 360, glove 80, corne, moonlander etc. I made the swap at 55 and wish these options existed when I was 30. Learning to program the layers to your requirements and only using 36 keys makes such a massive difference in comfort and typing efficiency.
This is interesting. I also remember hearing somewhere that the letters aren’t in order row by row because old type writers would get jammed if people typed too fast (apparently a more jumbled layout slowed them down successfully). Not sure if that is true but the court stenographer keyboard makes me think there is something to it.
Since I didn't see anyone mention them, putting in a word for the Keyboardio Atreus (using one right now) and their Model 100, both are split with staggered columns.
It doesn't. Not much better than original staggered (unless split), and you can say goodbye to your expensive cherry artisan keycap since you can't substitute the key from another row and make it not look horrible.
I've been using a Planck EZ for a couple years now and I feel handicaped when I have to use a regular keyboard. I'm not used to moving my hands anymore, just my fingers.
your experience with this will vary drastically depending on if you already type with proper technique. i learned proper touch typing form in middle school and have used it ever since, it took me only a couple days to be up to speed on a 40% ortho board. the people i see struggle with 40% ortho boards have wildly improper typing form and try to carry that over to the new format, which will be frustrating and undo any ergonomic benefits you wanted in the first place. so the hardest part about an ortho board like this isn't the form factor, but rather just learning how to type properly.
Calling a ortho plank ergo is a farse. You should be looking into a Moonlander, Voyager, or an Advantage 360. If you are interested in budget and DIY options. The Corne V3, or Lily58 are fantastic starting points.
O R T H O
split keyboards video when
COLUMNAR STAGGERED
@@The_Gourd_cyaSPLIT STAGGERED COLUMNAR
Dave you should try Corne split keyboard
Are you able to switch back to staggered layout pretty easily?
Is it possible to use Ortho at home and then go back to regular elsewhere and not have issues once you've learned Ortho fully?
"saw this pic on Reddit" Dave is the cleanest Redditor who takes baths
Theres a difference between a redittor and a person who uses reddit
Who are u. I see u everywhere
there is a difference between a person who uses Reddit and a Redditor
@@Jacques13able This. Why is @HeisenbergFam in all the videos I watch.
Because we are The One Who Knocks ;)
Just wait till he finds split curved keyboards. Its called dactyl btw.
and praises the ergonomics
@@jackyfong1717 dactyl dactyl dactyl
Thanks for introducing that rabbit hole to me 😉
I have a dactyl, it's great!
ptero- ?
Nobody can convince me that any non-split ortho board is ergonomic
As user of custom designed 86 key ortho southpaw keyboard, it is not ergonomic
Unless the southpaw part
Everything is relative. It's *more* ergonomic than a staggered-column keyboard, but it's not as ergonomic as a split, and/or dactyl keyboard.
I use a 75% ortho with the numpad in the center. It makes it somewhat split, and I love it personally. It looks clean and feels great to me.
@@lopodyr let me guess
Punk75
It's still more ergonomic than a staggered board, it just doesn't resolve all the issues without the split. I currently use a split ortho 40% as my daily driver but 3 years before that i started w/ a 40% non-split ortho board and it significantly improved finger fatigue for long programming sessions because i didn't have to make wild reaches for symbols. it still suffers from forcing you into a should hunch and some wrist angling, though it's less egregious on my wrists than staggered boards. i think they're a good transitional board between non-split and split
Some things worth noting about ergonomic keyboards...
1. Ortholinear keyboards are typically columnar, but good ergonomic keyboards should have row stagger. (If you put your hands in a natural resting position their should be a curve to your finger placement). Row linear layouts increase the risk of "trigger finger" and is not a good design.
2. The wrist strain you are explaining sounds like RSI from "Ulnar Deviation". This is something fixed by a split keyboard layout, but has nothing to do with columnar keyboard ergonomics. My speculation is that your wrist pain had more to do with not using your pinkies when typing which, on a non-split keyboard that already causes bad ulnar deviation, would dial those extensions (where you should be using your pinkies) to 11.
3. The other wrist related RSI would be extension (your wrists being arched up instead of straight on the keyboard). You should consider a wrist rest for your keyboard since many of the ones you show have a fairly high profile which makes them terrible ergonomic keyboards. This is why many people like apple keyboards so much: their thin profile minimizes wrist extension which is usually the most common type of RSI people experience since the strain exists even when you are resting your hands and not actively typing.
4. Ergonomic keyboards should have a natural tenting angle to prevent pronation (this would be the weird curved hump you see in most "ergonomic keyboards"). This is also why split keyboards tend to have adjustable feet for angling them closer to a 'natural' hand shaking position. It is also why "ergonomic mice" are vertical.
In conclusion, every keyboard you showed in that video had absolutely terrible ergonomics. They look cool, but if someone actually cares about minimizing RSI they should pass on all of these. It is important to identify what type of strain is causing discomfort and choose a keyboard that minimizes that. For Ulnar Deviation you should look at split keyboards. For wrist extension you should look at moving your keyboards further away, getting a good wrist rest, etc. For pronation you should get a keyboard that rotates the resting position of your hand closer to the position of a handshake (Such as the Logitech ERGO K860). If you have finger pain or "trigger finger" than it may be worth exploring an ortholinear layout, but don't expect it to move the needle that much. If that is something that really bothers you, than you should really consider biting the bullet on learning an ergonomic keyboard layout such as Dvorak, Workman, or Colemak-DH. The best of all worlds would be keyboards like the Glove-80, the Kinesis Advantage 360, the ZSA Voyager/Moonlander, etc. These are all very expensive keyboards, but that's the price to have it all.
Ok so I'm not insane. Like your hands and fingers aren't straight they curve and stuff, how can this possibly be more ergonomic than a regular keyboard where it seems better suited for curved fingers.
@@theflawedamy Ergonomic keyboards often stagger keys, but not in the way QWERTY does it. Typically a lot less aggressive. They’ll also offset the keys to the left instead of the right for the left side of the keyboard.
Ortholinear can be quite comfortable, but it depends on how the whole keyboard is put together. The Glove80, for example, curves the keyboard around your hands.
@@theflawedamy They are relatively straight. Put your hand in a "handshake" (neutral) position, and open and close your grip like you're Spider-Man - but with all of your fingers, instead of just the web-shooter-activating ones. Don't fight the natural tension of your hands/don't dramatically splay your fingers (move them apart) in order to prove your point - just move them real quick.
Your fingers are moving on a relatively linear path. Not perfectly linear, but close enough.
When that person said that the rows should be staggered, I don't think they mean like a regular keyboard - I think they mean that the keyboard should be "cupped", or bowl shaped. Google: "Dactyl Manuform Keyboard". For each finger, there is a "max reach/max retract" distance (you pinky can't reach as far as your middle finger, for example, so the "top" key for each finger shouldn't be the same distance from the base of your hand), and the top and bottom rows should be angled toward where the pad of your finger would land, because that's how curling digits land on things when reaching/retracting - not straight down.
Also add Svalboard/lalboard/datahand to the ‘best of both worlds’ list
And the keyboardio full size keyboards to that list as well
Ortho but not split sounds like a nightmare. Look how cramped your hands are together.
I mean it’s the same as on any non-split
It's hilarious he call a 64 key keyboard ergonomic lmfao
the OG planck layouts make no sense. I moved the shift tab row and the enter keys into the middle. Planck required you to use layer shift anyway, and to make the most out of it you have to embrace the layers. Ben Valleck have some nice videos on alternative planck layouts with layers
@@VuLamDang Yeah, moving enter and others to the middle is a good and old idea, going back to the TypeMatrix, tmk the original Ortho.
@@VuLamDangthat's not about the size, that's about how you use it
i wouldnt call an ortho keyboard "ergonomic" because it still has your wrists bent in a way that produces ulnar deviation, along with forearm pronation due to your wrists being flat parallel to your desktop. the keys not being staggered reduces neither of these strains on your wrists, and simply provides a comfort that is very much individual based. a tented split ergo keyboard is something to look into if you want an actual ergonomic keyboard.
Not if you get a split one though. That's the holy grail
@@VincentFree yeah that is true, ortho split boards have good merit to them because some of them have the rows laid out in a way where all the rows are equal distance from your fingers
Something like the Helix is a good example. It's split yet ortholinear. I personally like the Atreus 62 for the compactness and angled design, although it's not purely ortholinear; the columns are staggered.
It's not tented, but I've really enjoyed using the Levinson. Was a fun build too, if you're into the building part of the hobby at all.
Yeah... That tiny narrow thing would not do good things to me. Came looking for this comment, good run through of why this is not ortho
Now try a split ortho linear one. That's what's really ergonomic. The rectangular bricks are good, but way beyond what comfortable typing can be.
"Way beyond" implies that it's way ahead, which I don't think is what you were trying to say
I got the moonlander, the pre-made one, it sure takes long time to learn but with a 3d printed higher base, it's so much more comfortable to use than normal staggered mechanical
@@Simon-tr9hv now try a 40% split ;)
Even better, splayed columnar split!
split column staggered is def the way to go for keebs
Finally bro has made a keyboard video after 84 years...
always seemed to me that he was deep into custom mechs but avoided channel coverage because he knows its a pricey rabit hole. which doesnt entirely fit with the products he chooses to cover where price to performance is usually a factor
This looks like a Lego brick
Savage 🤣
and it looks amazing
@@osvy5144yes it does look amazing
But I'm not sure I'd be willing to put in the amount of effort required to unlearn and relearn typing on such a keyboard.
About as useful as a lego brick too.
Switching to better keyboards is like the US switching from imperial to metric. The outcome makes sense but the process to get there is painful
This applies to every change in life 😅
"Switching to your ortho is always faster than relearning."
And expensive af
Yeah, the process of switching to the Colemak DH layout from QWERTY was pretty difficult. You’re constantly having to fight against muscle memory until you can overwrite it with the new layout. I do want to get an ortholinear keyboard at some point though.
The US switched to metric many decades ago, but the population don't know about it.
April Fool's was 2 months ago, Dave
What?
@HuwRees my thoughts exactly
I had the same thought.
thus, we can easily conclude that this is not an april fools joke.
...(??)
😂 I was literally just thinking the whole video....why? 😅
My personal take is that apart from looks, there isn't much of an ergonomic advantage with these type of ortho keyboards. Just splitting the board alone would massively improve ergonomics. Id love to see you try something like a dactyl, or even just a corne / lily / kyria / etc
I think he missed the sticker set at the bottom of the box.
Corne would be a much easier jump from an ortho 40, especially compared to going from standard to ortho 40. 60% column stagger is where I think most people would be happiest with, though I only have a Corne.
had me in the first half, ngl
For those of you that live near a Microcenter and wanting to try this keyboard layout, they sell an Orthlinear keyboard for $40, the Inland 47-Key Mechanical Keyboard. Great little keyboard, that has RGB and hot swappable switches.
Siiiiiiiick
Dang it. I just got back from a road trip, and I'm just now seeing that the town we went to had a Microcenter... like, two blocks from where we were. Had I read this comment yesterday, I'd be testing out a new keyboard right now. And also have explored a Microcenter, which just sounds like a good time.
I mean, I don't think ortholinear is very ergonomic (more than standard, but less than many other layouts/keyboards out there), but it would still be fun to have/mess around with for a bit.
their orthokeyboard is shippable
Wait till he finds out about split keybs
Or ortho split keyboards
most splits are ortho though. If you're in the business of ergonomics then ortho is the only way I guess
@@BinauralBaeor columnar split keebs
"What if I made a keyboard... But I made it a pain in the ass to use!" - average keyboard head
But, crucially, not a pain in the wrists!
“What if I made a comment… but only watched like 1% of the video” - average YT commenter
Just needing the layer shift to access certain keys would drive me crazy. Imagine typing a report with numbers and needing to switch constantly
@@avonireLayers literally make numbers easier to type than on keyboards with separate number keys. Instead of reaching two rows up, I hold a thumb key and have the numbers on the home row where my fingers already are.
@@avonireGuess you never type CAPITALS or symbols. It’s much faster typing EvEN in WEIrd mIXes oF CApS because it’s very practical, compared to reaching up to f-keys, numpad, etc. Compare this with fiddling with far away keys.
There are much more ergonomic keyboards such as the corne (also 42 keys) these keyboards adds a couple of changes to the planck:
- Each of the rows for the fingers is staggered to consider the different lengths of each finger
- The keyboard is split so that you can place the halves further apart to avoid being cramped
- The thumb keys curve outwards
Yep, the corne is wonderful.
Great report on your experience learning the ortholinear layout. I did the same journey myself, with the much larger Moonlander columnar split keyboard. I also have a Planck, but I think it's too small for my hands. I prefer to have them spread across the table a bit more. That being said, I was already a good typist, using all my fingers mostly correctly. I knew it would be painful, and I knew it would require massive commitment, but I am also very anxious and impatient. I trained for a full weekend, more than 24 hours straight. And I was able to increase from the low 20s to around 80 wpm, which is already a very usable speed. Than I continued to train using websites like Monkeytype for the next few days until reaching my upper 90s again. It does take a while, you really have to commit, but it is doable. I was 44 years old when I did the jump, and I was successful. Since then I moved to smaller layouts like the Corne keyboard. Nowadays I am using the ZSA Voyager variant. It's almost perfect for me.
No way this is ergonomic
You are wrong
Sure, columnar split ergo boards would be easier to type on, but this already has better ergonomics than ANSI/ISO layouts.
Consider this: If you need to use arrow keys, you need to put your hand on the side and then back on the home row. If you made a mistake, you need to shift your entire right palm to reach the Backspace key. If you need to hit Esc, same thing. Pinkies have a lot of keys on them, and most of them require shifting your entire hands, while your two thumbs share only one key, so each pinky has 12-17 keys, while the thumbs have 0.5 keys. Thumbclusters are one of the best ways to improve ergonomics, if a split ergo columnar board doesn't have thumb clusters, it's not that ergo anymore.
@@aebisdecunter the main problem is with the linearity of the rows and the columns, though. Fingers are not equally long and perfectly next to each other.
Then what key is bound where is a completely different question.
@@susseduud Columar stagger and concave keywells certainly offer better comfort, but ortho is better than row staggered keyboards, especially bigger ones (TKL, 104 key) without layer support.
all the ergo guys agree with you if you want to look through the comments again lol
time to learn Dvorak next Dave!
I tried for a bit. It seemed way too hard lol
no no no, colemak-dh is optimized for orthos
@@darukutsu i do intend to learn colemak next after mastering dvorak! why is it better optimized for ortho?
@@Dave2D haha same advice like your friend mentioned for switching to ortho! just gotta keep at it until you can reach your regular speed and now i enjoy typing in dvorak more as the hand alternation makes typing much more enjoyable in my opinion
@@TaehaTypes I just heard/read somewhere about it, mod was created in 2015 i think they have different styles for ANSI, ISO, ORTHO... when you look into hot map, you will see something like this:
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
* * * * - - * * * *
- - - * - - * - - -
I think Dave is confusing two things here: the reason his wrists don’t feel sore isn’t because the board is ortholinear, but because it’s a small 40% board that doesn’t require you to move your wrists as much. A staggered 40% keyboard would have the exact same benefit. Ortho is mainly an aesthetical difference.
Ortho also helps here since you don't have to reach as much. It's a combination. Split would be the obvious upgrade from here
Kinesis Advantage 2 has literally changed my life, highly recommend for those with early onset conditions - took me about a month to fully acclimate but it was worth it and my pain is completely gone.
That being said I really cannot imagine this brick in the video being much of a comfort upgrade than a standard keyboard, seeing his hand position is painful.
Columnar-aligned keys reduces "reaching", which decreases fatigue some amount, but, yeah, split keyboards reduce ulnar deviation, which is a much bigger problem. Add tenting to reduce wrist pronation, and wrist rests to ensure your wrists are straight, to reduce wrist extension, and boom - pretty much a perfect typing experience. Some optimizations can be had, at that point, with a Dactyl layout, then a Manform structure, and then lighter key switches with shorter throw. *Then* it would be ultimate.
... I need to fix my 3D printer and get back on the project that I bought the thing for: making the keyboard i just described.
"Just 90WPM. No big deal."
90 is pretty average for someone that works with computers for a living.
@@isaackvasager9957 🤓
look at the software hes using, no punctiation, no capital letters, very short easy words. his 100wpm are probably more like 60
Welcome to ortho keyboard. I started using ortho due to my finger/wrist issues a few years ago. Adapting to the layout was stupidly difficult, but once i got used to it, the pain was gone.
I could never type with a legend less keyboard lol
touch typing, around 1h for 21days and you'll be on the same speed
cause they don't teach it in school anymore
@don_juant yes, they do.
@@isaackvasager9957 it depends on the country
@@fajarkurniawan9434 america is the only country that matters.
Glad you found this. I've been using he ZSA Voyager, struggled to learn it for about 2 months, and now I would hate to go back to staggered layouts.
Naturally there’s a divergence of keyboard users where on one side you have people who type like literally pages of pages each day over hours literally using all keys to form words, and those who mainly use keyboards with hotkeys in repetitive workflows such as CAD users or number heavy lines of work. A single style of keyboard such as orthos will eventually diverge naturally as it adapts to the style of the user. You can’t give an accountant a gamer focused keyboard, a video editor a writer’s keyboard etc it just wouldn’t work. It can even hurt the user over time.
Your journey with the Ortho keyboard was really captivating. Making the shift from the traditional to a completely new layout, chipping away at years of muscle memory. Testament to the strength of human adaptability.
It would drive me insane typing on something like this lol.
Changing muscle memory of over 20+ years of typing is too much work for me at this point.
Depend of the original finger movement
Ortho really punish you really hard if you already have bad finger movement that you grew accustomed
It's a good way to make sure other people don't use your computer though. That and use the Logitech MX Ergo as your mouse.
I promise you it's not that hard!
Another big benefit to ortho is that most keys are 1x1. That means you can just replace keys you don't use. Like I'd happily toss out caps lock or my right shift key, but I can't because those are larger than other keys.
You should try the Glove80 :)
Definitely give the ZSA Voyager a shot! Columnar layout with thumb clusters and split layout. As a software engineer, this keyboard removed my RSI and is the most ergonomic keyboard I've used so far.
I love that you tried ortho! I'm an ortho user myself. I would say, however, that it's *not* inherently more *ergonomic*. The real benefits are, as I see them:
- Muscle memory. Columns are in proper columns instead of shifty diagonals, making it simpler to know exactly which key you are reaching for.
- Size. That Planck you have demonstrates this pretty well.
- The ability to map a numpad or other grid-oriented layouts to a function key and not have the stagger make it weird.
Oh also, I think people who touch type (use their pinkies and adhere to the proper columns) will have an easier time with the transition. That's just my anecdotal observation.
As for why you're feeling less strain when using ortho, are you perhaps touch typing now? I wonder if touch typing is inherently easier on the wrists.
I have custom designed 86 row ortho
No more dealing with pesky layering unless I need to access mouse mode
You don't even know where to put your fingers lmfao, it doesn't have any letters.
@@sklynexd you type while watching the keycaps?
That's kinda sad.
@@sklynexd It has indentations on F and J, you just feel for them.
@@sklynexd that's just the aesthetic choice Dave made; doesn't really have anything to do with ortho.
Dave, I got a blank ortho split keyboard last week (a Sofle), and managed to get to 95 wpm on QWERTY layout now. It does take time to get back up to speed (although there's still speedbumps when typing keys in other layers), and I'm currently experimenting with Colemak DH layout.
you should definitely try split keyboards, i'm now currently intrigued with keyboards with keyballs (attached trackballs), or even scroll encoders.
Can't wait for the 20% keyboards to come out next year!
We had 'em 40+ years ago, see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorded_keyboard
that's just stenography
it's so powerful it's the only method of typing that can keep up with human speech - that's why they use it in courts
I've used a 35% as a daily board for quite a while now. I'm not interested in getting rid of a whole row yet, but I couldn't see it being that hard.
There's already a layout for this. It's called the butter stick.
The Qwerty layout is also designed to space out letters commonly used in the english language to minimize the risk of jamming the typewriter.
The Dvorak layout is specifically designed to maximize typing speed. but for the same reason as mentioned in the video, it is unlikely to replace Qwerty.
Funny, I bought the Voyager last week and can confirm that it's super HARD to re-learn everything after decades of typing!
Me too 🤝
I also committed to learn a new keyboard layout (Engram) straight away. I'm at 15 wpm and it's very painful 😅 But I'm 100% convinced it's going to be a game changer in the long run.
@@ferdinandmaximilian_I.I am one month into engram too with my Dygma Defy 😅 I was 80wpm and now I am still at 40 😂
I type normally around 110-115 with 1 to 3 max mistakes, but after seeing this video, it now makes sense about the even column / even row set up..
Definitely going to try ASAP. Thanks Dave!
This is not an ergonomic keyboard. This is just a bad keyboard that looks unique.
fr fr
Eh, probably not worse than a full size/standard layout. Luckily, not nearly as much of a jump to get used to a split column stagger proper ergo board.
I'm amazed how you precisely hit 8:01 duration video without putting in any useless stuff 😮
just waiting to come up with 40% split columns staggered keyboard like Corne xD
Was looking for this XD
I have my Kyria and looking now for a sweep wireless corne
Kinesis Advantage 360 is the only/last keyboard you ever need. Seriously, the concave key wells are LIFE-CHANGING!!
So happy to see some 40s love, but I got news for you, there's no stopping now.
See you at 30% split col stag!
30% GANG
So happy that a mainstream tech UA-camr is talking about orthopedic boards. I’ve been using boards like these for 5 or so years and have moved into more strange looking split boards in the later years and I really believe they don’t get enough love. More talk about these will hopefully help with the prices so I can convince more friends to get into these. Aiming for a future where one day all laptops have ortholinear layouts as well 👍🏼
"You must unlearn what you have learned" Yoda
Not gonna happen for me, been typing 40 plus years on the old style and I'm fine with it.
Dave, I hope you don’t feel like all the people recommending split keyboards are trying to discredit you. Moving from row stagger to ortholinear is a step toward the world of ergo keyboards that shouldn’t be ignored! I think this is a good keyboard video to make.
However, everyone including me is commenting about this to help you continue on this path toward ergonomics and minimal finger movements, and definitely the next step is to try out split, columnar keyboards. Hope I’ll be seeing a follow up soon :)
PS there’s a lot of more affordable options out there! Glad you’re bringing this to the mainstream as well
I still wonder why Dave went through a long, messy hair phase and then came right back to where he started!
probably just craving some change. i do it too from time to time. unfortunately, I no longer can grow my hair as long as him.
everyone I've ever known to have long hair get its cut short eventually.
Summer
Dyed them too. His white hairs all of a sudden disappeared..
@@mauree1618 After that it's so hard to go back to longer hair, too.
Can't wait till you find out about columnar staggered split boards like the ZSA Voyager. They are HEAVEN.
If you're going to go crazy on unconventional keyboards, why not go Dvorak or Colemak?
You should give the Dygma Defy a run for its money. I have been using that for a month now, and I’m never going back to a traditional keyboard. The defy is soooo comfortable once you get used to it. Especially with tenting.
It almost doesn't look like a keyboard
I use an Ortho layout (in fact I'm typing this on one I designed myself in KiCAD) and I'll honestly say that the time commitment wasn't as crazy as I expected when I picked up my first Planck kit. After about a week I had my accuracy back, and after about two weeks, I had my speed back to go with it. While I do still type on staggered keyboards (mostly laptops, at work), I can't imagine going back to one full time. The lack of hand fatigue from long typing sessions on this is worth the price of time you pay to get comfortable with it.
I hate small keyboards. Those are way too small.
Imagine you've learned to use this layout, but you still have to use the regular keyboard on you laptop or some other device, switching between the two. That sounds like fun.
No views in 16 seconds?
My bro fell hard 😢
1 minute, still below 1k view. sad
Typing on Lego bricks isn't something I expected to see when I woke up today
I swear the timing on this video was crazy. Either that day or the day before it dropped, I found myself wishing keyboards had not evolved from type writers, rather on their own, and that if they had they probably would have been in a grid layout. I grew up with and type fast on old keyboards, but they have never satisfied my OCD desire to have my tech tools in order & sleek. More to the point, old keyboards do not serve well for replacement keys when hacking in advanced keyboard combos depending on which applications I am using, and having a grid system would fit more varied use cases. Then instantly I see this video and am introduced to such a keyboard. Thank you Dave for presenting my manifestation.
EDIT: WHOA! Dave said exactly what I said in the last 2 minutes of the video, I should have finished the video before leaving the comment 🤓
Every single video of you makes me remember how good you are.
The editing, the photography, the shooting, the script even the B-roll.
It is actually counter ergonomic by placing the keys straight in a row. Cause your fingers extends in an angle in natural position not straight like a fork
Finally ortholinear layouts made it into mainstream! Been using ZSA PlanckEZ (has per key RGB, and great web interface to customise your layout) for years now - loved it right away, as I’ve always been an absolute hater of staggered layouts. It hit me when I was learning to blind type, and trying to make myself not use left thumb to press C - I looked into why why have 3 keys per finger to use, but they are all staggered to the left. Hope much more of this makes into mainstream, and big brands start to offer ortholinear choice at least.
Can’t wait for the next video on split, columnar (ortholinear, but keys are staggered vertically for finger length) - that’s when true ergonomics starts!
Ben Wallack on youtube made a great series of videos about typing ergonomics, he dives deep into QMK, starting from PlanckEZ, and Moonlander, ending designing and assembling his own split ergo keyboard d.
I miss Dave's mad scientist hair phase
A split (2 parts + a numpad if needed) Ortho layout + Hall effect Switches + either a display on each key that changes with the layers or a app that visually shows the layers on screen is my dream.
I got an Ortho keyboard (the Planck EZ - since discontinued), a couple years ago. The transition was instant, no pain in trying to switch over from the staggered layout for me. So YMMV.
Dave2D, This is fantastic! I subscribed right away!
all you're saying make a lot of sense, and i did consider switching to an ortholinear in the past.
the main problem is that either you use JUST AND ONLY your OL keyboard or it'll be a constant mess with the muscle memory.
i could theoretically use an ortho with the pc in my office, but what about my laptop at home? and what if i have to go to another office and work with the pc of a colleague?
you make all the effort to change your muscular habits, and then every time you can't use it is a mess again...
Well in my thirties, I switched to a split ergonomic keyboard a couple of years ago. It's not quite ortholinear, but the columns are staggered rather than the rows in order to better line up with your fingertips. It took me about two weeks to get back to my old speed, but to be fair I wasn't that fast before. In terms of ergonomics though, I think split is definitely the way to go, especially if you have broad shoulders.
ortholinear keyboards are less ergonomic. They force you to pull your elbows closer your body for your fingers to line up with their linear layout, opposed to the more natural angled layout your fingers line up with when your elbows are in a more natural resting position. ortholinear keyboards look neat, but are not comfortable. if you still want to try a ortholinear keyboard, I'd suggest the Creator Board by Work Louder, it's the most impressive one I've tested to date.
no the most ergonomic is a split ortholinear keyboard that is curved and tented
As Dave discovered and stated, your hands, wrists, don't move much if you do it right, it's just your fingers that dance a little bit, and then, not much either. Even less if you go with Colemack DHm or other than QWERTY where you dance the most.
And if you do not have the keyboard pulled up close to your belly, your wrists stay in a relatively comfortable enough position and again, just don't move until you reach for your coffee. Unless you are already dealing with RSI issues, the bend your wrists make with this is not any deal at all to overhype. Been using mine for 3 years without even a peep. No trouble at all.
Tis a Planck, not organically shaped or especially a posterchild of ergonomics, but small enough to not be an issue.
Small keyboards so that. Split keyboards in any size solve that problem.
I think it’s true that if we designed a keyboard today, it might be an ergo split ortho type thing. It’s also true that ortho-ness hardly matters at all, for ergonomic or speed properties. Learners would have fewer hiccups on an ortho, but once those key locations are drilled into your muscle memory, staggered and ortho are functionally identical.
Got V1 Max and installed my preferred Gateron G Pro 3.0 Yellow switches from my older K2 V2. Originally I ordered with Gateron Jupiter Banana switches which I didn't like, think I am more in to linear. Now I have ordered TTC Frozen Silent V2 switches, which should arrive in a weeks time, and am hoping it will make my keyboard much more silent and enjoyable, not just for typing but also for gaming.
As per mods I did the following:
1. Removed the original foam from the board and instead used 4mm Practik Base for vibration/sound dampening (orange) and 5mm STP Biplast sound insulator (black). Both are used in automotive and sound industries.
2. Added Poron switch pads 0.5mm on top of PET sheet
3. Tape mod with 2 layers
4. Added Poron 0.5mm pads under stabs and the stems, and re-lubricated the stabs as well (was thinking of changing them to Durock V2, like I did on my K2 V2, but these stocks look good)
5. Added O-rings between the bottom and the top case where screws go in.
6. Changed to Cherry PBT Double-Shot Dark Blue/Black keycaps set (usually comed with Xinmeng A66 keyboards)
I love it when you listen to your friends advice and find out the reason and improved upon it, you were not feisty to post the bad review but you find find out whats wrong with you, love it, love your reviews, keep going 😊
An ergo ortholinear keyboard would be a slight V shape so that the wrists are not compressed . The true reason you've adapted to 3 finger typing is to avoid wrist compression by moving your "home row" hand positions outward to ASD KL; It also helps with adaptation to different keyboard sizes. But I digress, or not really, lol because my next point is that the whole reason QWERTY layout persists is that even if everyone knew it sucked from efficiency and ergo perspective, and were prepared to learn other layouts... we remain uncommitted because we don't want to handicap ourselves when faced with the reality of all the keyboards we will be forced to deal with due to workplace and manufacturer standards. So the standard QWERTY physical layout will persist until wireless BCI (brain computer interface) to foreign devices becomes ubiquitous. And mercifully, that's only one generation away.
Dave, gotta say man, love your videos! they're appealing to me even when I'm not considering shopping for the product. Respect your opinions because they're very logical and scientific. You didn't just take a dump on this stupid keyboard immediately like most would have done but really took a deep dive into the true nature and intended purpose of the product. I like any youtuber who really understands their audience and role and you're one of the best man. Keep the videos coming!
Thanks Dave. Welcome to the ortho club. Been using ortho for years. In time switching from one to another gets easier. I’m trying to learn steno from a ortho too, just allow chording and bind a different layer.
Ortho but not split keyboards look so awkard. Definitely try a split! Become one of us 👁👄👁
I've been curious for so long about these "Doys" keycaps. I couldn't find anything online about them; barely a photo of them on keyboards. Thank you for making a video on them. Clears up so much confusion!
Just started ortho this year. Took a bit to get comfortable, but I’m faster now than I was before ortho
Check out split ortho's, specifically split 36 key orthlinear keyboards.
Ortho's, and split ortho's made learning a new layout MUCH easier because I wasn't fighting a lifetime of staggered QWERTYY.
I took
As someone who still has trouble using keyboards (except my phone keyboard)
I can say this grid layout makes a lot lot more sense than the usual typewriter keyboards, I hate how I have to tilt my macbook so I can write on the staggered layout where one wrist is rotated in the abnormal direction and even then I have to look at the keys I type and still make mistakes
Appul is one of the most influential keyboard makers (due to their mac) and they have the power to change to the better, more sane keyboard layout
Info for you: I bought a Vortex Core Keyboard a long time ago which is 40%. It took me about a week to get to grips with it and since then I've been using it every day and I love it. So it's worth spending some time on such small keyboards at the beginning.
I still have a couple of those in the stash. MX Clears and clicky blues. ole skool style.
You might have mentioned different keyboard layouts like Dvorak, which was made because we no longer needed to keep often-used keys apart to prevent jamming typewriters.
When you said, "if keyboards were invented today...", my mind went straight to the CharaChorder One
I make way to many typing mistakes when using a regular layout, and despite having larger hands, i actually struggle with reaching certain keys. I feel like this kind of layout would help immensely with accuracy and my poor wrists. I’ll look into trying out these kinds of keyboards and see if its for me
The number pad comparison really sold it to me. I think I wanna try learning that keyboard now.
We need a matching keyboard with a negative of those keycaps so we can build structures with them like legos
I have never been a fan of small keyboard and always thought that sacrificing keys just for aesthetics was a little dumb, but this video kind of convinced me that there are practical benefits to a smaller keyboard.
Corne with chocs, split, ortho, ergo, blank keys. Way smaller and more portable, 32 layers, can be tented and moved apart for way more ergo comfort. You are heavily pronated on a 1 piece keyboard, splitting it solves this and lets you angle the halves to whatever works for you or even tent if you want to.
i love ortho layout! i really want there to be more out there. Its an even better layout when its in a split formfactor! I do think you struggled to get used to it because you don't type "properly" not using your pinkys to type for 30 years of typing experience would lead me to believe ortho style would be very difficult! Nice video, cheers!
When I switched to using a Planck, I also switched to using the Colemak layout, so I could learn a more ergonomic layout while also switching to ortho. It seemed easier to me in hindsight. Within a week or two I had gone from about 10wpm back up to my normal 90wpm.
Every single person in this world felt unnatural first time using the regular keyboard.
For real typing comfort, try a split ortho keyboard, a 36 key layout using layers and a different key layout like colemak. Might take a while to get used to,practice 15mins per day until comfortable enough to swap full time. Many keyboard options out there like the advantage 360, glove 80, corne, moonlander etc. I made the swap at 55 and wish these options existed when I was 30.
Learning to program the layers to your requirements and only using 36 keys makes such a massive difference in comfort and typing efficiency.
I’m using ZSA Moonlander keyboard and totally love it. Split, columnar staggered layout.
This is interesting. I also remember hearing somewhere that the letters aren’t in order row by row because old type writers would get jammed if people typed too fast (apparently a more jumbled layout slowed them down successfully). Not sure if that is true but the court stenographer keyboard makes me think there is something to it.
Since I didn't see anyone mention them, putting in a word for the Keyboardio Atreus (using one right now) and their Model 100, both are split with staggered columns.
You should check the dygma defy, that's ergonomic
I did the same thing - cannot believe more companies haven't offered this as an option, it just makes sense
It doesn't. Not much better than original staggered (unless split), and you can say goodbye to your expensive cherry artisan keycap since you can't substitute the key from another row and make it not look horrible.
I've been using a Planck EZ for a couple years now and I feel handicaped when I have to use a regular keyboard. I'm not used to moving my hands anymore, just my fingers.
your experience with this will vary drastically depending on if you already type with proper technique. i learned proper touch typing form in middle school and have used it ever since, it took me only a couple days to be up to speed on a 40% ortho board. the people i see struggle with 40% ortho boards have wildly improper typing form and try to carry that over to the new format, which will be frustrating and undo any ergonomic benefits you wanted in the first place. so the hardest part about an ortho board like this isn't the form factor, but rather just learning how to type properly.
Calling a ortho plank ergo is a farse. You should be looking into a Moonlander, Voyager, or an Advantage 360. If you are interested in budget and DIY options. The Corne V3, or Lily58 are fantastic starting points.
Been a keyboard enthusiast for a long time now, and I think this video made me want to try the push to ortholinear
This is where those long skinny alien fingers evolve from. Thanks dave!