Fortune or Failure: Giacomo Agostini, Mike Hailwood & Honda's NR400?
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- Опубліковано 13 тра 2021
- The first of a series of motorcycle tales where we'll take a short journey back in time -this time to the 1960s, 70s and 80s - to re-examine some motorcyling history. We'll debunk some motorycing myths, challenge some allegedly iron-clad truths and, hopefully, give a fresh perspective on what are some accepted motorcycle facts based on brittle truths and shallow research.
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#bluemarblerider - Авто та транспорт
Great idea for a series! Great analysis. When one studies win/loss ratios, number of podium placements Mike the Bike ranks in the top tier of GP style racers. His winning in later years on a Ducati are lessons on how races can be won through use of late braking and lap to lap consistency. His after return from retirement British GP win then his Senior TT win in 1978 are worth watching. I wonder what he could have done on modern machines?
Thanks, Lyle. Mike was an incredible talent (and so self effacing) who - whenever he was given a chance - took it. Honda have a history of pulling out of Moto GP and F1 while almost reaching the zenith, only to pull the plug and come back and start all over again (like they did in 79/80 with the NR400). One wonders, with good reason, what would have happened from 68 through 73 if Mike had been racing a Honda...and just how that would have impacted MV and Agostini...
Unfortunately it seems most people these days tend to look at bare statistics without looking any further and come up with an opinion which they justify with the statistics. Hence the reason that Ago is held up as the best. But look a little deeper and and I would say that looking at the competition at the time they were riding the best was very likely Eddie Lawson. I realise a lot of people will not agree, and I am not from the USA. Great video as you are the first one to actually point out how lucky Ago was.
Agree - stats are overrated, context is important, like you say, Lawson was riding in a very competitive environment; whereas, Ago had it a lot easier for many years. If you look at F1, then I value Senna's wins more than Schumacher's because Senna was racing against Prost in similar equipment; whereas, Schuey was in a far less competitive environment for much of his career with team orders and a resurgent Ferrari.
Hailwood's 1978 win at Mallory Park is poetry on two wheels and worth watching. No knee down required! Oh to be able to ride like Hailwood!
ua-cam.com/video/0LnNP7mw7XY/v-deo.html
I agree! It was a 'virtuoso' performance that must have raised so many eyebrows amongst the younger spectators present.
On that note I wonder just how they can recreate that style in the proposed Hailwood movie about his comeback IOMTT win.
A couple of things about that Mallory Park win to remember: Before the race Steve Wynne had allegedly told him (1) "go gently with the clutch at the start" (obviously he did!) and (2) "the Ducati doesn't go well at Mallory, must be the long wheel base, so don't expect to win". 😄
Interesting video. However at 3:20 you state incorrectly that from 1968 the FIM limited 500cc machines to "2 cylinders for 2-strokes, and 4 cylinders for 4-strokes". I believe that there was never any separate distinction for two and four strokes - ALL were limited to the same number of cylinders in any given capacity class (and this was before the name "motoGP" had even been coined). These limits were 2-cylinders for 250cc and 350cc classes, and 4 cylinders for the 500cc class). This of course handed domination of the sport to the 2-stroke. In this the 500cc 4-strokes as raced by MV Agusta and Honda effectively had a "stay of execution" only because no competitor had as yet developed a 500cc 2-stroke.
I had never heard that Honda quit "in disgust" at this ruling, but rather that they began by intending to take a year out to focus on their new F1 car (hence their desire to retain Hailwood throughout 1968 and have him available for when they resumed motorcycle Grand Prix racing in 1969). As it happened, they SUBSEQUENTLY decided to leave motorcycle racing altogether (to concentrate solely on F1), which then left Hailwood looking for a new team for 1969. He apparently tested with MV Agusta prior to the start of the 1969 season, being satisfied with his lap times in a morning session, only to find that his bike was suddenly a lot slower in the afternoon session. He realised then (knowing how Count Agusta worked) that he would never be allowed to beat Agostini to a world title whilst on an MV. He left in disgust and decided to switch to car racing.
It was a tragedy that the end result was that motorcyle racing lost its brightest light in Hailwood to car racing at the age of only 27. How much more would he have won had the sport retained him until a more natural retirement in his early to mid thirties?
I also agree - it was the Honda RC181's reliability, or lack thereof, that cost him the 500cc titles in 1966 and 1967.
Thanks for your corrections, Eventcone and clarifying the 4 cylinder/4 stroke vs 2 cylinder/2 stroke detail - I appreciate the update; it is also interesting that MV sought to protect Agostini, in 69 while Hailwood was testing for them; however, I do stick by my assertion that not only did Honda walk out based on the FIM ruling, but so did Yamaha and Suzuki due to the mandated reduction in cylinders (from 6) and gears down to 6 from 7 or even 10 speeds, this is well documented in the media at the time.
Yes, it was a fascinating era, and I for one am left in no doubt that had Hailwood been allowed to compete on a level playing field, he would likely have taken a fair share of victories and would be held in even higher regard today.
@@BlueMarbleRider Having since found other references to the Japanese factories pulling out in protest (including Honda), it seems that you are most likely correct on that point. I'm not sure where my own beliefs regardng this part of motorcycle race history came from but, I suspect, most likely from one or more of the Hailwood biographical accounts (read some years ago now).
I'm a little surprised that Suzuki and Yamaha felt aggrieved by the ruling, as it would have favoured them, them being 2-stroke manufacturers. However I suppose it would still have required that they develop new engines, Yamaha in particular having invested a lot of money in developing their V4 liquid cooled 250cc machines (was there also a 125cc version?).
Was the FIM ruling an attempt to protect the European manufacturers from the Japanese competition? If so it was at best a short term protection, whilst also robbing the race fan of the wonderful variety of engineering solutions to the challenge of getting a motorcycle to complete a Grand Prix race distance in the fastest possible time. I personally found the resulting "wall to wall" 2-stroke era (where all the machines sounded exactly the same) comparitively boring compared to the 'musical' variety of the 1960s.
I seem to recall from somewhere that it was Count Agusta's long held wish that his machines could be ridden to victory by an Italian rider (after several years of world titles being taken by Surtees, Hocking and Hailwood). It seems he was quite the autocrat and there was at least one blazing row between him and Hailwood just before Hailwood left at the end of 1965. But check the Hailwood material for comfirmation of that.
Thanks again for the video.
In answer to your paragraph 3 above: it would be a in keeping with the European/UK manufacturer ethos of the time...they were not happy with the added competition in their "club" from a culture they considered inferior and that they assumed were pilfering their (long in the tooth) tech. Agree: that FIM ruling was perhaps the death-knell of short term competition, and only delayed the inevitable. Cheers.
I think you are correct Sir. The Honda six was outlawed in the 250cc class and was altered into 297cc entering the 350cc class. Also the Honda 125cc five cylinder raced successfully.
Jim Redman was telling everyone in a talk at Cadwell Park, that Honda had got 12 cylinder and 8 cylinder 500cc bikes on the drawing board. Due to this ruling, where never built.
When the FIM ruled four cylinders irrespective of how many strokes it was, Yamaha had developed the four cylinder 250cc two stroke which when reliability was found, completely dominated.
Really interesting vid - thanks.
Just a couple of things which I hope you take in the good spirit they're meant - the underslung fuel tank of '84 was on Honda's first v4 two-stroke, the NSR500 of that year, rather than the NR (if you look it up, you can see what they had to do with the exhausts to achieve it - something Honda would blanch at doing with even hotter four-stroke pipes! Ducati might have given it a go, given the opportunity).
Also the carbon wheels were first used in racing on Freddie's NSR of '84, too, I believe - I'm not sure, but I don't think they were ever put on the NR other than on its final showpiece non-race version.
Final slight quibble: lots of people now seem to refer to the old 500cc premier class world championship as being 'MotoGP', in the way you do. True, it's convenient for comparing riders' records etc in the most prestigious form of motorcycle racing, but it is of course an anachronism.
Thank Villiam: your points are noted - I really enjoy feedback like yours - it’s good to know there are people who care as much as me as motorcycle history. Thanks.
Subscribers are not displayed as far as I can see but hopefully you'll be getting more and more. Amazing content! One suggestion, for what it's worth: do review even bikes that are not ncecessarly matching your taste. I just checked your review of the Katana and I bet you'll have something original to say. ✌
Thanks for the tips!
I recall being at Mallory Park in the sixties - Race of Champions I think when Hailwood on the 297 cc Honda 6 trounced Agostini on the 500 cc MV3. Both were brilliant riders but I’ve no doubt Hailwood was the greatest of his era and returned 11 years later to prove that.
I would love to have been there. I'm very envious of you. Yes, it's hard not to wonder which of them would have been the most revered rider had Hailwood carried on with Honda rather than being forced into semi retirement by their decision to leave racing in the late 60s, handing Ago the silverware. Thanks for the feedback. Cheers.
Godfrey Nash won in 1969 in joegoslavia on aNORTON there last win
@FITNESSOVER45 the track was Opatija
All of them were fantastic riders it is not all about the bikes witch you will never ever see again end of
All of them were fantastic riders it is not all about the bikes witch you never see again end of
Transparently so, Mr Glasscock ;-)