The media KILLED the MVP
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"historical context" should have nothing whatsoever to do with your vote. It's not Jokic's fault he's been the MVP 3 times and Shaquille O'Neal only won once. It's so stupid
100%. Each year the award should be based on a player’s season in comparison others in that year ONLY. The luck of postseason success argument is such a bad take some voters use too.
so what if a player balls out during the regular season wins lets say 3 in a row but each post season they shrink under the pressure and they come in and have another historic regular season but you know last couple of years hes shrunk when it mattered even tho he lets say had a complete team...should history matter then or do you just continue with the narrative with oh well its a regular season award so even tho they cant get it done in the playoffs that means nothing ...cuz i honestly think players like harden and embidd are great in the reg season and can win the mvp plenty of years but i think they dont have what it really takes to win it all so what then ? do we put any context to what we have seen in the past (history) or just be obtuse and say hey regular season award ya ?
@@315giants it's a regular season award. It has nothing at all to do with playoffs. In my personal opinion James Harden and Embiid are fool's gold MVP winners. I agree, they aren't the real deal. I don't think they deserved the awards in the years they won. And looking back neither did Westbrook. We were all in awe of the triple double but he was just padding stats.
@@matthewt8214 i just think history matters and it should be added to how a voter weighs their decision because in my scenario you could have a player continually win 3 4 or 5 mvp's cuz of historical regular seasons but get knocked out in the first round .. so a player can be a great regular season player and always fall short and we should just overlook it ? just dosent make sense as to why you wouldnt look at historical context it really all should matter imo
@@matthewt8214
Rockets almost beat the Warriors in 2018, that’s not fool’s gold
There's no chance that SAS watches enough basketball to be qualified to vote for these awards. He still thinks Quentin Grimes is on the Knicks.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
He also thought isaiah hartenstein was still Coming off the bench
It’s Luka and Jokic, then everybody else
It should be common knowledge
It's really just Jokic but alright
@@wrongturn5089if y’all racist it’s cool
@@beankobe8205xenophobia
@@beankobe8205they aren’t even American they couldn’t care lesss about your politics 🤡
NBA should add an OPOY in all honesty. Leveling the offensive bias is a good start
I mean, that's where the scoring award comes to play, doesn't it?
@@majestic_europe a little but not fully. how many times has the top scorer not been the best offensive player?
Nah too many awards, the nba is getting too gimmicky with that kind of stuff anyways
@majestic_europe not really because offense is more than just scoring and the scoring champion isn't always the best scorer anyway its just the person who Jack's up the most shots.
@Diego-fy6qz that's like saying there shouldn't be a dpoy because that's what the steal and block titles are for
The west is absolutely STACKED with talent. Lebron and AD, KD and Booker, Curry, Jokic and Murray, Kawhi and PG, Luka and Kyrie, now add Chet and SGA, also add Wemby.
It’s crazy to me that the bucks are the 3rd seed out east but would be fighting in the playin out west
Fox and sabonis, ingram and zion, and Ja and bane when healthy too
@@bryanfoster326same with the Knicks, they would be middle of the pack but are second best in East
SGA is having back to back identical seasons, the reason his team is having success is because of Jdubs improvement and the addition of Chet. People making it seem like he’s doing something crazy
he's still leading this team. he is, no one in the NBA is as consistent as he is and dominates the way he does. He is special and had a special season back to back.
lol bro all i keep hearing it madd 30 point games like hes the only one scoring and besides that he really dosent excel in anything else also hes not a prolific scorer where you cant stop him ive seen him get clamped up and then hess a negative to the team and i think he will get exposed this post season i honestly think ant is a all around better player then him esp defensively but some dummy will say oh he leaads in steal as if thats the only thing that defies defense hell jokic is looked at as a bad defender hes top in steals in the center position but we dont say heyy hes a great defender look at all his steals... but in a nut shell i think shai will get exposed this post season
@@315giantsman I will come back to this after shai stays consistent and averaged 30+ in the playoffs too💀
you don't watch thunder games
@@D3liveringChaos literally Jokic and Luka are having historical seasons, bad take
Seriously nobody would have argued if MJ, or Lebron had 6-8 straight MVPs.
Scared to award it because it would look bad for other players is crazy
Except they did, Jordan should’ve had way more mvps, lebron as well. (Voter fatigue)
The argument Chris Broussard is a real one, because people have never been like let’s fix the mvp until jokic pulled up
@@SirCruxful very true, I stopped watching the nba for a few years and got back to it last year probably.
And I kept hearing them say they couldn’t give it to Jolie because it would be three mvps straight.
The thing that also bothers me is how they are trying to push who the face of the nba will be after Lebron retires. Like there’s not way they think Tatum, or the dude on the timberwolves will be better then Luka, joker, or even wenby. They don’t want a foreigner as the face of the league.
That’s literally it. Same way why people won’t give it to wemby for dpoy they know he’s in course to be in the top 3 for that every year. It’s a taint on their era.
@@andrewhp9754 true
When Luka puts up great numbers and carrying his team, he's not MVP cause his team isnt high enough in the seeding. Luka's team is healthy and putting up great numbers doesnt get the MVP cause he has kyrie irving has a co-star. Therefore he doesnt get the credit. Damned if you do. Damned if you dont!
Problem is that Jokic is also putting up great numbers and is higher seed and has no all star teammate. League is so stacked that little things like that are what makes the difference between number 1 and number 2.
Jamal Murray and porter jr was dam near lottery picks 😂😂 if porter jr didn’t get injured in college he was the number 1 pick 😂 yo jokic fans really delusional and I’m pretty sure Aaron Gordon made allstar last season
Exactly, the narrative doesn't allow him to win MVP. If his team does well he's out the picture. If his team isn't playing well he's out the picture.
Giving individuals in the Media power over public decisions is one of the dumbest mistakes we've made.
Not when it comes to this. There are way too many casuals who just look at box scores and think they know the whole story
They need to let coaches and office executives like GMs vote
The public consists of individuals tho
Players are worse. Fans are just stupid. So... not great, but it could be worse
@@zukusenryunewsflash, in many cases those are the media members. A bulls beatwriter is watching no more Jokic than the biggest causal of casuals. And a lot of the National guys have others watching the game for them then have them write notes so they can talk about it on tv. Might as well just have fans of UA-camrs watch their videos and pirate the takes. It would be no different.
Jokic consistently proves he’s the most valuable player, he’s more valuable of a player for the nuggets than Luka is to the mavs, or shai is to the Thunder , Jokic does way to many different things good and doesn’t have a single weakness in his game, he doesn’t go for blocks because of the reffing and how they call fouls but see how he has a bunch of game winning blocks because when he tries he capable of being better than every person on the court at every aspect of the game. If people are mad becuase he’s winning more mvps then bron or Jordan it’s becuase he’s more valuable of a player notice how I haven’t said better but valuable
That's good argument.
Eh luka is much more valuable to the mavs bc they would be a d league team without him
Giannis is more valuable same with Luka.
@@censari544you really think the nuggets wouldn’t be a lottery team with nurkic instead of jok? Mavs have Kyrie and Milwaukee has dame bro
Yeah he using one random ESPN employee doesn't mean that's why majority of voters are voting jokic.
The only MVP award that matters is the Finals MVP
Bigger fish to fry
Cmon man but Iggy has a FMVP
@sullyproductions5757 and Iggy is a champion ask Embid which one would he rather have
Finals MVP has all the same problems as MVP
@@sullyproductions5757 And he doesn't deserve it.
MVP had to be altered because if it were actually “Most Valuable player” it would have went to Lebron and MJ at least 8 or 9 times.
In my Career mode on NBA 2K14 I still can't win MVP and I am in my 4th season, 3 times I lost that to LeBron 😭😭😭😭😭😭
@@DVukovic98your playing 2k 14…… what is wrong with u. And u really trash how u can’t win mvp on a game
@@TheRealest365right 😂😂
Would not went to Lebron. Nice try
Watch them give it to Shai since the Nuggets lost to the Spurs the game before the last... you can almost smell it!
Shai missed like a week straights worth of games and had some mediocre games before that, while Luka was cooking... somehow that landed Shai back in the 2nd spot in the most recent mvp standing.
It just doesn't make ant sense... if they don't want it to go to a euro guy again, the should just say that.
Nah the Nuggets finishing top 2 pretty much negates the one seed that SGA got by a single game. The vote will be a little closer but Jokic had a lot of momentum the whole year. Vegas had him at a -5000 for a reason. SGA getting the one seed is most likely gonna take some votes away from Luka though.
Idk he did have a impact on the team since they was losing games while he was gone
I'd be surprised if Jokic doesn't win, but there is absolutely gonna be people arguing that SGA should win it because they ended up snatching the top seed.
SGA missing games should help his case honestly.. We lost almost all of them😂 thats his value.. With him #1 seed. Without, Rockets at best... He is the MVP.. We're talking about a team that the majority had missing the playoffs, & they're #1 in the west
When Luka was playing his best basketball he was around #4-5 in the mvp rankings because his whole team (which was already badly constructed before the trade deadline) was injured and he wasn't winning "enough". Then ppl came back from injuries and the deadline happened and the mavs started winning, but if you watched the games, Luka was actually playing a bit bellow his standars for the year, but he moved up to #2 in the mvp rankings. So what I got from that is that Luka's mvp chances are not even contingent on his own play. The award is a joke
Luka won't win because he's talked negatively about the league and analytics. That bothers the voters hence why even though he's always got great stats isn't in the running
@@Skills50 analytics..thats all.that matters.
By the way, when adv stats say Jokic is good at defense, we should just throw them to the trash
So how can we say Luka is the reason his team started winning at a higher clip. Luka is putting up the same numbers but his team got markedly better after the trade. As that the value of Luka or actually the addition of the new players. Let’s be real Luka was putting up numbers but not winning for most of the season. I’m t was the impact of his new role players that really helped them start winning. Not to mention his off and ons are about the same. The team still goes when he’s not on the court. He’s not as impactful as a Jokic
@@Mektek19 That was a whole argument of dumb
@Edd-zd5wb stats for defense, whether simple or advanced, have always been significantly less reliable than offensive stats for evaluating individual players. Put Jokic exactly how he is on a worse defense team and his numbers go down. Hell, that would to everyone in the league. Trying to distill indivdual defense to a number doesn't work
Former NBA writer here. It's not the best player in the league or who's having the best season. It’s the guy who is the most valuable to his team's success. Take that player away from his team and where would they be? That is what you have to measure when deciding on your MVP vote. So yes, sometimes the standings count. And while everyone is gushing over Wemby, and rightfully so, the ROY voters have to weigh who has done more for his team - a guy who has free reign to put up numbers on a terrible team (Wemby), or a guy who had to fit in and wound up being a solid contributor (and the only real addition) for a team that jumped from 40 wins to 57.
Two questions:
1. What was it like to be an NBA writer?
And 2. If you are top five in the vote, could it be said you had a pretty darn good year?
@@fortynights1513 It was a fun, exciting, but pressure-packed, job. The guys are rarely what the public perceives them to be, so you can't go in with star-struck notions about the players when you meet them (Charles Barkley is one of the nicest people I've ever met). Still, though, you have those moments where you can't believe you're actually sitting down and doing a one-on-one interview with guys like Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Shaq or Kobe.
And of course, if you are in the top five in the vote, you had a great year. I personally would not say that Jalen Brunson is the MVP, but when you look at the Knicks and what they've done given the trades and injuries they've dealt with, I can understand people giving him the nod.
@@Jimifan57That’s awesome that you enjoyed your job, and yeah, I’d imagine some people aren’t like you’d expect when you meet them.
You said you met Charles Barkley, for what team was he playing if you don’t mind me asking? (He played for a few)
And one last question that I ask every NBA observer and get a variety of different answers to (if you would be so kind):
What is the best player you don’t see listed below?
This is every player that has ever finished top five in an NBA or ABA MVP vote (122 in total):
ABA Players (24):
Connie Hawkins
Doug Moe
Mel Daniels
Larry Jones
Willie Somerset
Jimmy Jones
Rick Barry
Spencer Haywood
Roger Brown
Bob Verga
Zelmo Beaty
Charlie Scott
Dan Issel
Artis Gilmore
Billy Cunningham
Julius Erving
George McGinnis
Ron Boone
Joe Caldwell
Willie Wise
Bobby Jones
Mack Calvin
James Silas
David Thompson
NBA Players (98):
Bob Pettit
Paul Arzin
Bob Cousy
Mel Hutchins
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
George Yardley
Bill Russell
Maurice Stokes
Elgin Baylor
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Sam Jones
Jerry Lucas
Nate Thurmond
Lenny Wilkens
Dave Bing
Wes Unseld
Willis Reed
Kareem Abdul Jabaar
Walt Frazier
John Havlicek
Dave Cowens
Tiny Archibald
Bob McAdoo
Bob Lainer
Elvin Hayes
Bill Walton
Pete Maravich
George Gervin
Walter Davis
Moses Malone
Bob Dandridge
Larry Bird
Dennis Johnson
Dan Roundfield
Robert Parish
Gus Williams
Magic Johnson
Sidney Moncrief
Bernard King
Isiah Thomas
Terry Cummings
Dominique Wilkins
Hakeem Olajuwon
Michael Jordan
Kevin McHale
Charles Barkley
Clyde Drexler
Karl Malone
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Scottie Pippen
Shaquille O’Neil
Penny Hardaway
Grant Hill
Tim Hardaway
Glen Rice
Gary Payton
Tim Duncan
Alonzo Mourning
Allen Iverson
Jason Kidd
Kevin Garnett
Chris Webber
Tracy McGrady
Kobe Bryant
Jermaine O’Neil
Peja Stojakovic
Steve Nash
Dirk Nowitski
LeBron James
Chauncey Billups
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
Dwayne Wade
Kevin Durant
Derrick Rose
Tony Parker
Carmelo Anthony
Blake Griffin
Joakim Noah
James Harden
Stephen Curry
Russell Westbrook
Anthony Davis
Kawhi Leonard
Isaiah Thomas
Damian Lillard
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Paul George
Nikola Jokic
Luka Doncic
Joel Embiid
Devin Booker
Jayson Tatum
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
First of all wemby is playing under 30 minutes a game and his supporting cast is subpar to say the least, secondly wemby literally propels his team to the second best defense in the league while he is on the court and when he is not on the court it goes down to bottom five and thirdly the western conference is incredibly difficult. A 46 win team is the 10th seed. Chet has the privilege of playing with Jaylen Williams who has massively improved and Shai someone that could win mvp, not to mention other role players like Cason Wallace and Isiah Joe. Wemby doesn't have anyone even close to that level of a player as his teammate. Winning has never been a metric for determining ROY before. Its been strictly who has had the better season. If winning was a factor than Melo would have won Rookie of the year in 2003-2004 instead of Lebron
@@fortynights1513 I first met Charles when he was with the Suns, got to know him fairly well when I toured with the 1996 Olympic team and later got to be friends with him when he was with the Rockets. One of the nicest, friendliest people you'll ever meet.
Just a quick look at your lists and off the top of my head I'd say either Warren Jabali (a brilliant player, but his political views at the time turned many against him) or Marvin Barnes on the ABA side, and (even though I despise the guy) John Stockton among NBA players.
It’s the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER. Not “who’s having the best season”. Its who is the most valuable player to there team leading them to success
Jalen Brunson’
Their*
And you’re absolutely right. Luka is the most valuable player to his team and the league.
@@jjpark1989so y he wasn’t winning games before Daniel gafford?
@@jjpark1989most valuable is definitely Jokic.
@@anthonyw6092 if Jokic clinched the 1st seed, then I’d say no doubt. But since he’s no longer in 1st, it has to be Luka.
You can make great cases for every player in the race for MVP I don't think anyone will be mad at whoever gets it
💯
They scared players now a days gonna look better than the old generation
Facts
Here’s a conspiracy theory I’ve come up with. Sports books went overboard when their top mvp candidates to start the year either 1 got injured or 2 aren’t really in the discussion anymore. So jokic odds went too far down for the crazy close race we’re in now. They need to keep those odds down to keep people from betting on him and ensure that there is enough movement between Luka and shai that people spend money hoping for big wins. Then they buy off the voters and have Jokic and his low payout value win
entirely plausible
I've always wondered why the NBA has such a weird MVP problem. Messi has 8 Balon D'ors. Cristiano has 5. Sometimes players are absolutely light years ahead of the competition. Why bend a rule to fit an agenda?
Just give it to the best player on the best team. (or, in some cases, the player that drags an absolute dumpster fire of a team to greatness.)
Or do it like baseball and hockey and give to the player who straight up is having a historic season and posting the best numbers
The problem is football awards are based on the whole season while the NBA only does awards for the regular season which I honestly find stupid.
Messi shouldn't have won a few of those. The Lewandowski snub was awful and this years one was beyond stupid.
The footballing world knows this. The Balon D'Or has had a problem in recent years.
@jonnstewart2023 Recency bias will creep in. It'll come down to who goes further in the playoffs. It'll make voting even lazier as they'll read only into a small sample size.
@@JuicyCharon Which is fine. In football, they consider your league form, champions league form and what you do for your national team (if there’s an international tournament)
What’s wrong with that?
He started this season as the favorite because he has been the MVP for the past 3 years, and also coming in as a NBA Champion. And they were not wrong, they Tied #1st place in toughest conference even though Murray missed 25+ games. Jokic will get 5+ regular season MVPs
"Fat Woman" Jokic has the media absolute support.
They were third seed, loser argument...
Okay but who else has had a teammate missing the past two years? Ohhh giannis as well! Last year bucks were 1st and khris missed most of the season but giannis wasn’t even considered.
Khris has been absent and/or limited throughout this entire season as well in addition to giannis learning numerous systems and trying to accommodate a new superstar teammate in addition.
So for some reason teammate absence only applies to Jokic. 🤔
I like that you put down a wel thought argument. So I won’t be mad if Luka would get it. It’s close but for me it’s Jokic. Let me make clear what arguments I have for MVP.
1. team succes. Do they have a decent seed and do I see that team making the conference finals.
2. Did the player show that his games translate to the playoffs and do they get even better, worse or the same. (Context of the stats)
3. How much of the stats are in empty minutes. (I value those less)
4. Direct and indirect stats.
5. How do they preform under pressure
6. How much they play on “cruise control”
Based on these there are 4 candidates in my order. Jokic Luka Tatum and Gianni’s. SGA can prove his playoff performance this year so he is my nr 5. Luka and Jokic are clear 1 and 2.
The separation between the 2 are on 3 empty minute stats. Luka plays those a lot more. On 4 the direct stats from Luka get compensated by Jokic indirect stats. Stuff like screen assist. Effective field goal. Last point is on nr 6. Jokic looks like playing on 75-80%. Luka looks like he goes all out every game.
So with that almost 50-50 I go Jokic.
As your unique historic and making teammates better argument both did that.
Most Valuable Agenda.
Luka, Jokic, Shai, Brunson. That is the list, and obviously Brunson won’t win, but he deserves to be in the convo for what he’s done this season and for the Knicks.
Giannis is 5th on this list for me after the Knicks got the two seed
@@callmenbxcketseven if he got the #2 seed Giannas should have never been higher than #5
Lillard has a winning record without Giannis of about 7-2.
Giannis has a losing record of about 1-5 without Lillard
And last year the bucks had a record of about 15-7 without him or when he left the game early.
Gainnis hasn't been a MVP player in years.
I honestly don't think he would have a single MVP if KD, Steph, and lebron were healthy through 2019-2022
@@Christopher._Mwhat an awful take😂...giannis quite literally had the greatest volume scoring season of all time this year and you wont rank him top 5?!?!
@@nathanielpotts2556 he did that and couldn't win games without Lillard.
People keep blaming Lillard but if the bucks can't guard with or without Lillard and can only score high with Lillard on the floor than maybe Giannis isn't as good as you people think he is
no
Adding on historical context makes no sense.
so Jokic cannot win 3 MVPs or more, because that would get him closer to MJ, Kareem or whoever they wanna protect.
honestly old-heads like Broussard doesn`t want there all time ranking to change, because they don`t wanna change their narrow perceptions.
I want to see every award voter write an essay explaining why they made their selections. Hell, it should be a requirement now more than ever, if players need All-NBA selections to qualify for contract incentives, then voters need to be able to explain why they made their selections and provide the information they are basing their choices on.
Crazy how most NBA media didn’t even have the Mavs making the playoffs or play in and now that the Mavs are in the playoffs they downplay Luka mvp talk for god know why because Luka is the clear MVP the media is trying to push an agenda on everyone else is crazy
They littleraly said Kyrie and Luka wouldn’t work but now Luka has the best stats of his career and its oh its because he has Kyrie WTF😂😂😂😂
@@yom0mma214 I’m saying or that Luka can’t make his teammates better but Gafford, Jones Jr, Exum are all having career years since playing with Luka
They're literally saying they cant cope with the fact that jokic is having multiple mvp seasons while players like Lebron Shaq and Kobe dont have as many. The amount of mvps another man has is irrelevant to who the most valuable player is this season.
This is a TRUE CATCH 22.
Changing the voting process NOW for the already retired greats, would be like the equivalent of taking your final exam in med school to become a doctor and getting 100%.
Then 20 years later, 25% of the exams answers are now out of date, so they take them off the exam and your score is adjusted to 75%, even though you got EVERY question correct when you took the test.
But at the same time the NBA (and NFL) MVP voting process is an ABSOLUTE JOKE. Correcting it now would so drastically change things that it would minimize the career accomplishments and achievements of 70 YEARS of basketball icons, and turn the goat debate on its head.
If you change it there’s going to be people 100 years from now when we’re all long dead that think Nikola Jokic was better than MICHAEL JORDAN if Jokic ends up with 7-8 MVP’s because of how the voting changes.
@@hutchphilpot6870anyone making determinations about who’s better based strictly on awards is an idiot. We shouldn’t consider idiots being idiots as a fallback of changing the voting standard.
The Jerry west thing, they cast their votes before the game was over. It was literally game seven in a game that came down to the final possession.
You know what's wild they could just acknowledge there are a lot of guys that got screwed out of multiple MVPs and even more and reviews if they want multiple and just Make sure they don't repeat the same mistakes but they won't for some reason
Its because now a lot of players are playing with another star and damn near every team thats above the 9th seed arguably has a second star with them
That part about the standings needs to be replayed a million times for some folks.
They did the same thing with the DPOY and LBJ. It’s one of the first things used in the argument against him but it’s been an arbitrary standard with that award forever. Then you wake up one day and LBJ has gone his whole career with out one and his prime is done.
Bro Gasol deserved that dpoy. He had better numbers in every advanced defensive category then bron point proven there. Even more he naturally had more defensive responsibilities as a 5, rebounded on the defensive end better, and his team had the best defense in the league which was anchored by Marc. They were winning games off their defense they weren’t some offensive loaded team.
Different ppl are selected to vote for dpoy and all defensive selections. The same guys aren’t voting. The real problem is Marc making 2nd team defense, if someone is dpoy they shouldn’t be on 2nd team💀. Bronsexuals saw this and somehow thought the real treagedy was bron somehow not getting the award?
True but also there's the All-Defense selections and if you are considered for the top 3 defenders in most of your seasons, I don't care about the award because that's mostly narratives and context.
@@0vern9Khim being all defensive 2nd team was proof he shouldn’t have been dpoy wtf are you talking about
@@lorddj9910he was all defensive 2nd team because different ppl vote for those 2 accolades. If a guy wins dpoy CLEARLY the ppl who voted him 2nd team fucked up. Even so Marc again had better advanced defensive stats then lebron clearly he should have been first team, not bron winning it💀.
Marc was 1st in defensive +/- bron was 5th, Marc was 2nd in defensive win shares, lebron was 10th…, and Marc’s grizzlies had the 2nd best defense in the league, the heat were 9th.
What case does bron have besides making you wet with chase down blocks?
@@lorddj9910exactly. Was gonna mention that Gasol was 2nd team all-defense that year that he won DPOY over Lebron.
Says all you need to know about the voters
Consistent bangers from the Legend of Winning
Luka , jokic is the only right answer this year .
Luka and jokic was overall better
Luka average more points per game, more rebounds, more assists then shai little less efficiency from FG but more efficiency from 3 ball
Jokic average less points but more assists and rebounds and more efficient from FG and 3 ball
We can’t say anything about defense because jokic lead center in steals this year
Luka is top 10 in the nba in steals and 3rd in guards
Not saying shai defense not better but it lean towards other guys more then shai
So y do other teams have more wins with lest help?
But both luka and jokic suck on defense . Bro it’s not even close.
@@beankobe8205 jokic sucks on defense? yeah youre a casual and a racist
@@beankobe8205that take died two seasons ago. Jokic was a plus defender this year. Keep sticking to that tired narrative though. Jokic finished 4th in defensive rating behind Gobert, Wemby, Kat(he was also a plus defender this year). SGA finished 16th
The problem with this stance is that MVP is a historical award, it's not a playoff spot, it is not suitcase of cash. The only value it has is historical, so you have to take precedence into account. If you don't take precedent into account it loses all historical value. Also saying you saying what voters did in the past was wrong makes no sense, they thought they were right just like you think you are now. Imagine baseball decided 2 strikes is an out, all the sudden a pitchers strike out count is historically meaningless when in any different decade you change it's definition. You can celebrate it that year, but it ceases to be worth mentioning in any long term context.
Saying what voters did in the past was wrong makes all the sense. A moral judgement is a subjective evaluement based on your own principles, if something deviates from that principle in your eyes they are by definition wrong. Also i think we would all say that the US government in the 1960s was wrong for what they did.
Why is the MVP called the most valuable player if historically it has been the best player on the best team? The best player could very much be on the worst team. Why do some players who by the public deserve the MVP but don't get it because voter fatigue? The MVP feels like it has always been an incoherent award voted by people we have zero respect for in regards to their basketball knowledge. If that's the historical precedent of the MVP award then i quite frankly find the award meaningless.
But i could be wrong.
@cribate7548 A moral judgment like you said is subjective, it is not math, it is neither right nor wrong, just how an individual feels at the moment. The MVP award has never been an award for the best player on the best team (Westbrook and others have won with teams far from the best), it has always been spread out, there may be some elements of fatigue (but no voter has confirmed that). You say it seems incoherent, the fact is the middle word "valuable" (not best) does not have a specific definition in this context so it will always be up to interpretation of those with votes (as it should be). Mostly it has been an award to the player that exceeded expectations based on their own personal bar. So guys like MJ, LBJ etc... set a sky high bar and their greatness is just an average year for them when other great players far exceed their own bar and get close enough to debate they generally get it.
@@JoePesos There are right or wrong moral judgements, right or wrong is a subjective criteria, there is nothing objective about it. That's the problem with the MVP, if there is no clear definition then there will be no consistency. The MVP in my opinion should just be the best player of the season. If you are the most valuable you are the best player.
Your opinion comes across as a little bit stupid here !!! Obviously the award is historical in that it is recorded historically but everyone who competes for mvp has absolutely no responsibility to be better than any previous mvp, just to be better than the other guys in the league. What would you do if no one had good enough numbers, just not vote ?
@@ianscarlett6884 Christ sake what an ignorant response. You just making up conversations that didn't happen? Nobody has ever said the MVP has to be better than the previous MVP (this is just nonsense you made up) this has never been the case, do you even realize it is a yearly award. Second the MVP is not the best player, do you even watch basketball, MVP is awarded based on performance during one regular season, not who is the best overall player in the league. Unlike the other guy who actually had reasonable points every thing you said is so nonsensical it won't merit another response.
The best place to start with MVP problem is what team looks like with the player on the court and off the court. Thats the best representation of his value and than all other numbers
Wouldn’t win shares also help? Pretty sure it calculates how much their play leads to the team winning
I don’t know if we should start there. You gotta play 65 games. I don’t know if 17 games or less is a good sample size of what the team is without that player, considering a bunch of other factors.
@@dariuswilliams3206 I agree, but thats a good start, yes there are a lot other factors
Not really because so many teams are built around their stars
@@bubblesnz1059 Thats the starting point, nothing more, if that number is bad then what?
The Knicks are 15 - 15 vs the Western conference this season. That's bad! The Dallas Mavericks are 19 - 12 vs the Eastern conference and 31-21 vs the West this season. Low you are right.
Low. You didn’t take into consideration that Brunson is out there without his co star. They’re a second seed in the East with all but one other team 76ers who were missing their star player. Also with the season over. They’d be the 4-6 seed in the west while Luke and Kyrie played together for most of their season. Not the mention Robinson and OG are significant pieces to that Knicks squad and were out for most of the season as well. Sure there is some bias from Kenny and Stephen A but you didn’t contextualize important facts
Same s*** I was saying
@@josephprendergast2420 yeah Low be forgetting a lot of info in some of these videos.
they gave it to jerry west before the series ended
And it's been fkd up since then
No.
The issue is that once the media decided they didn't want to give Giannis his 3rd rightfully earned MVP last year (because muh LeBron), they made it the first time in NBA history a player averaged 30ppg, had a historically dominant season (10rpg 6apg 30 mpg) had the best record in the LEAGUE and DIDN'T win MVP. Furthermore that marked the first time someone with a WORSE RECORD FROM THE SAME CONFERENCE, WITH SIMILAR STATS, got MVP.
Giannis had won a title, nearly solo destroyed Boston in the playoffs in 22, played elite defense (was also snubbed on all defense). So he'd satisfied the "do it in the playoffs" and was an elite 2 way player to boot.
By doing that they broke with every metric that determined MVP, every tradition everything. They even, hilariously, ignored BOTH JJ REDDICK AND PERK WHO ACTUALLY AGREED THAT GIANNIS WAS THE MVP.
from then it became clear that it would be a worthless award, as the writers/media are now worse than the officials.
Facts or when shaq won 3 championships back back but only won 1 mvp his entire career
Nobody likes giannis...there's people in this comment section that truly believe he's not even top 5 in mvp rankings right now😂. Giannis literally is the only player ever to average 30+ on 60% yet nobody cares. If Anthony Edwards did that everyone would be sucking him
You do realize the person who came in second that MVP cycle was Steph right? Also Giannis didn’t have the best record that year he was the third seed that season and missed part of the season
@@nicholaskatsikas4904 bro use your brain.
The bucks had the BEST RECORD LAST SEASON and Joel embiid won MVP
Wot ru on about
@@nathanielpotts2556 It's a whole lot of xenophobia unfortunately.
The way i see it is that if you're not liked by the media like a luka or jokic, even if you have the greatest season of all time, you'll still be in competition with those who the media like even though their numbers are mild in comparison to the numbers those two are putting up. The award system is bias all around it's not just mvp. Any vote has a bias behind it imo but some people are just voting and not even caring about analytics which is dumb to give those people a vote
How do u know when to show video as opposed to solely audio for copyright ?
This was the closest mvp race in years and yet the media refused to acknowledge it because Jokic shoulda won last year and now they gotta make up for it by giving it to him this year
I feel like people are having these weird biases against euros as a whole.
Funny enough, Gobert has been winning DPOY yet called overrated constantly (I joined in for the memes but I do think he’s a better defender than given credit for).
Giannis kept getting shit for no reason being told he doesn’t know basketball, while being MVP. Or told he isn’t skilled even though he’s more agile that most men that size and is a great help defender.
Luka was doubted in his draft (due to the fear of the European game translating) and he balled out. He was a popular player that was really good and that same media that praised him was willing to turn when talked about him possibly being an all star captain in his rookie season.
Jokic has been the most recent punching bag because he’s been the best player in the league as of late, and people are looking to justify the hate. They’ve brought up race, “inconsistent logic”, media bias, voters fatigue, etc. setting up reason to why Jok should lose. But when he wins everyone is up in arms. It feels weird like we’re moving backwards instead of trying to get that global market on board and giving us a bigger pool to select talent from and expand basketball and sharpen our own players to be better than other countries.
Great point Sir
I don't knwk what shai's numbers look like right now but he was putting up great numbers.
He was putting up 31/5/5/2 on about 64% TS before his injury.
With the #1 seed
Those are great numbers.
He's also better at defense at his position and archetype than both jokic and Luka.
So you can definitely debate he's the MVP
I agree but somehow defense is ignored nowadays when it comes to MVP, SGA has been leading a bunch of 23 year olds top 3 in the west all year while being elite both ways.
Jokic is pretty great and has been great Defensively. Numbers alone show this
Defense dont matter when Luka has proved he’s better than Shai this season lol stats dont lie neither do the head to head matchups😂
@@Jonathan-A.C. I watch games.
He's not a bad defender at least not with the scheme around him but he's definitely not good at defense as a center
He's mediocre at best. He has a bunch of defensive pieces around him that a good center would make a top 5 defense
@@Jonathan-A.C. Jokic has never been great defensively numbers don’t tell the whole truth, there’s a reason he’s never received a single vote for an all-defensive team. He’s great offensively yes but mediocre on his best day defensively
When you compare records across conferences, you gotta keep in mind that the Knicks, for example wouldn't have that record if they actually were in the west...the record they currently have was compiled against mostly eastern conference opponents so if they had to endure a full season of a western conference schedule, they wouldn't have as good of a record that they have playing in the east
Legit 3 people deserve it (Jokic, Luka and SGA) so it will be all those things together (seeding, support, etc) to decide the winner. Either way I am technically fine with whoever gets it although leaning a bit towards Doncic and Jokic as a Serbian. But I wont be disappointed or angry at all if SGA wins either.
Best video on the MVP shit I’ve seen! You hit the nail right on the head! At some point you got to do it right not just stay the same as the history of constantly fuckin up lol
The MVP is not actually a regular season award.
Amen. The MVP and how the media talks about “the MVP race” all through the season is stupid.
MVP, Most Valuable Player. Out of the top 5 or 10 best players, whose team would be worst and by how much with him. Thats the MVP. By definition. Who does the most with the least. Don’t count playoffs because it’s a regular Season award. Should be a whole season award but it’s not
One of the deepest discussions on democracy on YT. Props
Should be call BNP, best narrative player because is just a narrative award
Just let the analytics decide who’s the most valuable player. That would be the most accurate way to decide it
The only player that can compare to Joker statistically this year is Luka. Shai has a nice narrative but the stats don’t back him up
Jokić
9th in ppg (5th in total)
4th in RPG (3rd in total)
3rd APG (2nd in total)
10th in steals
58.2 field goal %
65% true shooting
9th in minutes played
1st in PER
1st in win shares
1st box plus/minus
1st in VORP
2nd in triple doubles
On floor +11.4
Off floor -8.3
On/off = +19.7
Jokic is a f*ckin beast, my gosh!
Ik low is all on basketball rn but I really miss watching playback, I hope you n agent still cool
This is my new favorite bball channel. Speaking the truth. Thank you.
Man they said last year the nuggets as a one seed couldn’t go deep ,then say thunder could go to the finals 😂😂😂
Well said 💯
What we need is Quarterback mentality from those voters. What happened last play doesn't matter, forget it ever happened, what matters is the current play!
They gotta start releasing the names of these “expert” voters
It’s true that these awards have unwritten rules and stipulations , especially the MVP award . The media will move the goalpost just so they see who they want to win it , actually win it .
So basically for those unaware, the nba is in a full court press to expand globally. For example the last few mvp winners have been foreign born. The current top 3 mvp candidates are all foreigners shai, luka and jokic. And most importantly wemby is poised to possibly be the face of the nba…its all there in plain sight
How many channels you gonna make
What’s crazy is the knicks wouldn’t have 49 wins in the west !!!
They would have to play western teams 3 to 4 times instead of eastern teams .. and they would only play eastern teams 2 times .. so they would play harder games and would lose more ?? But they might still be a play in team like a 10 seed
MVP should always be three aspects: stats, narrative, highlights.
Are your stats good? We got about 7+ players with MVP stats: Jokic, Luka, SGA, Tatum, Giannis, Ant, etc.
Is your narrative fun? That cuts the number down to about 4: Jokic, Luka, SGA, and Ant
What are your highlights of the season? Everyone talks about the Luka 70. Everyone talks about the Jokic game winner vs GS.
I really don't get how UA-cam commenters are better at this than people paid salaries. Its 100% so that they have filler to talk about during the season.
Consistency is important, either give the awards like you've always done or announce a new criteria that doesn't change season to season. Same with foul calls. Is it the best player in the league award, player with the best narrative, best season, best player on the best team, best stats etc, cause it seems to change year to year. If they start changing things it is gonna be unfair to the og legends that missed out, either ways someone deserving is gonna come up short.
Ps: why award the joker if he publicly states he doesn't care for it or want it? Is he being fr?
I been arguing people over value mvp's given the lack of a clear set criteria so it's finicky at best who gets them. Completely agree with your take. The gatekeeping of the awards is microcosm of politics in sports that needs be left in the past.
Not what I would do necessarily but the way the media talks I’m guessing SGA will get 2nd in votes.
Rudy got DPOY because jazz was on top of west and great defensive team but AD was the best defender, Wemby boutta feel that pain
The MVP is so closely contested because there are so many good players especially in the west on so many good teams and those international players are playing very high level all season long like Jokic and Luka and Alexander and Yanis where the NBA never seen this high level
Basically the MVP has like college preseason rankings instead of everyone starting with a blank slate.
Jokic over Luka for me. Y’all are right about the stats, on a per game basis, Luka has been the better player this year, he’s without a doubt the per game MVP, but the regular season isn’t played on a per game basis. It’s based on 82 games, of which, Luka missed 12 and jokic missed 3, and when you’re 7 games behind the other guy and your team lost 8 games without you, the games missed start to matter.
The Nuggets are 2-1 without Jokic while the Mavs are 4-8 without Luka. Wouldn’t that make Luka more valuable?
@@taj3618 that’s a hell of an argument for Luka on a per game basis being better than jokic on a per game basis, but like I said, the nba regular season isn’t played on a per game basis. For 4% of the season, jokic gave the nuggets absolutely nothing. For 15% of the season, Luka gave the mavericks absolutely nothing at all. The whole better win percentage without jokic as opposed to without Luka would move me if they played about the same amount of games, but when one guy is missing significantly more, as far as I’m concerned it’s just an argument one guy’s lack of availability is hurting his team tremendously, especially when his lack of availability is the difference between home court advantage for multiple or possibly all rounds in the postseason, and one guys team having possibly no home court advantage
@@bryanfoster326 I don’t think the missed game argument is that big. It made more sense when it was Jokic vs Embiid. Embiid would miss like 20 games while Jokic missed 2. 79 games vs 70 games isn’t that far apart
@@taj3618 I mean, that’s a 9 game difference, and 9 games is the difference from the first seed to the 8th seed out west. I’ll put it this way, the way I’d view it is if you could go back in time to the start of the year knowing how jokic played and how Luka played and you’re given the option to draft one or the other for the season with the goal of getting the best record in the regular season knowing jokic will play 79 games for you while Luka will only play 70 games, who would you choose? I’d choose jokic because I do not think Luke has played that much better to where he can make up the 9 game gap
@@bryanfoster326 it’s really 8 games as all the Mavs starters sat out that last game
Y’all the same folks that had no problem with Kobe who was scoring 35 points a game not getting MVP. Hypocrites
they need to specify what valuable means and give it to that player that was most valuable in that season, who cares if by doing this a player wins 10 mvp's, he rightfully earned them
I would love to debate you on this as a 80s baby.
There needs to be some type of real criteria
LOL, bro, you're so right. "Hey, they fucked up voting back in the day and screwed great players over, so what we need to do is keep doing that, to make it fair to the players that got screwed over." It's like, "really?" The fuck kind of logic is that?
Honestly, ifbits most valuable player, not best player or best season, then there are a myltitude ofbfactors that have to go into, both qualitative and quantitative. There should be a real criteria that includes: stats, both regular and advanced, winning should definitely be considered, # of games should i think be the standard (that was a good move) but also lets look at circumstance as well. You know tatum had a better statistical season and still the #1 guy in boston but because he has holiday, porzingis and brown, thoae numbers took a dip and he had a plethora of depth on his team so his work load is lower while brunson lost his 2nd best player, 3 best player for a large chunk after they traded for him and their main inaide presence in Mitchell and basically still enaures that they were a good ready and tough playoff team, he should def be in the race. Luka you have to include, giannis and jokic of course because they have amazing advamced and regular stats and giannis is still the defensive anchor (i think defense should be included because 2 way players are valuable as well, hence why embiid had a major argument on top of scoring) and shai simply because hes leading a college aged team to a record that was not expected of them as well as leading the league in scoring and very close to jokic and giannis in advanced stats (PER, TS) and will likely be All Def this year. The worst argument is correcting a wrong and there needs to be some kind of set in stone criteria
Pick Embiid because it's his turn will always be the dumbest excuse to win an MVP
Pravi MVP
SGA GOT A CASE
LOW by your own logic of the standings Shai is the MVP when he’s putting up MVP numbers and he is above his 2 running mates in the same strong conference. He is a top 15 defender if you look at the stats he is in the 99 percentile in Steals Contested 3s Loose Balls recovered and Defensive Win Shares, 90 + percentile in blocks and rebounds.
Yeah but he is not above them
Finals mvp is the most important one
The problem with awards is history. Hardcore fans know that all awards aren't worth the same, but most people are casuals (and there's nothing wrong with that). So 10, 20 years from now, maybe even just a couple years from now, people will only look back and see one player has the MVP and the others didn't. Even the most hardcore fans, people like you who spend a lot of times watching games, looking at stats and talking about basketball, don't talk about the players who "almost won" nearly as much as those who did win. People don't remember if a MVP race was close, if a player was in a weak conference...
There are bad voters for sure, but even for the good ones it's a much more difficult choice than when we're having discussions on UA-cam.
that .2 & .8 matters. or it wouldn’t be numbers
Low you need to make a video reacting to Shaq comparing wemby to bol bol!
First Things First best show left on Tv lol
I disagree with the Wemby for DPOY take. Blocks are a glamour stat. Yes he does impact the game and make defenders hesitant, but Rudy has anchored not only a great defense this season but a HISTORICALLY great defense. And it’s being overlooked, sadly because of all the prior points you made.
Luka has had a historical season in multiple ways. If he doesn't win, people will look back years from now and wonder how the voters got it so wrong.
As long as people are voting, there's bias and subjectivity involved. There's absolutely no way any person is not biased.
Just beautiful
Voting makes voters express their personal feelings and thoughts. Their reasoning might not be something that we agree with but that's just how voting goes. There are no goalposts to personal opinions.
Joker exposed the media mvp conversation and now people don’t even look at it the same anymore. Karl Malone beat out MJ for it. Finals mvp is what really matters
In all fairness to the Brunson topic, Idt anyone is realistically putting Brunson over doncic Brunson is generally seen as somewhere between 4-6
The MVP has always been up in the air because they're no clear criteria. Everyone including u has ur own beliefs in how the award should be given. So everyone is surprised people have different takes on who should win.
And the year Steve Nash won in 2005-06, Dirk should have won it (although Lebron has an argument).
Not only did Dirk lead Nash in all 5 advanced stats (VORP, PER, BPM, WS/48, WS) he was #1 in 3 of them, #2 in another, and #3 in the other. Also he had a higher offensive rating than Nash and a lower defensive rating than Nash. Also the Mavericks went 60-22 and Nash's Suns went 54-28.
Also this was the year that Kobe had his 35 point season.
Giving it to Steve Nash that year is basically like giving the MVP to.. Kawhi Leonard this year.