Murray Gold vs Segun Akinola
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2021
- Edited discussion from my last Q&A stream that I thought deserved its own video.
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CREDITS
Written, Edited and Narrated by Rohan Moran
Music ► incompetech.com/music/
The footage and images featured in the video were for critical review and parody, which are protected under the Fair Use laws of the United States Copyright act of 1976.
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I honestly feel bad for the guy. Not only did he have to step up to the standard and legacy of Murray Gold, but his talent seemed to have been wasted due to bad directing. He could have made some great music, but Chibnall just kept asking for droning synth music tracks that get repeated constantly, making it stand out less.
I hope that he will get more free reign to broaden the type of music he can bring to the show.
I believe something similar happened with Star Trek The Next Generation, where the scores were interesting for the first couple of seasons, but then the producer said "No tunes!"
@beef business In the world of film making, everything needs direction. You don’t just hire a music artist and tell him to make whatever, you need to direct him to ensure that the music fits your vision for how the final product comes out.
It’s never as simple as “make an emotional tune”, “make an action tune”, “make a calm tune”. That’s not how film making works.
So yes, I do believe that Chibnall is partly to blame for how bland and repetitive the music was.
@@HB-fq9nn I think chinball is at fault for hiring him in the first place rather than directing him.. a friend played some of his pre dr who music to me and it sounded pretty similar. It's obviously his style so chinball shouldn't have hired him.
@@ThreadBomb Absolute travesty. Ron Jones' theme for The Borg is absolutely chilling, and his scoring of The Drumhead is a masterpiece.
One of the best composers Star Trek ever had, and was fired because his tunes were 'too noticeable.'
I particularly like his romulan themes
With Murray Gold's music. I can remember it. I can recognise tracks. It evokes emotions. My favourite is the Cybermen.
With the new guy, I can't, it all blends into one. I really missed the Cybermen music when they came back.
Me too, I thought he might at least put in a little callback to it.
Akinola's soundtrack follows the modern trend of droning atmospheric sci-fi from recent films and series, which to be fair is fine in keeping in trend with them.. but unfortunately doesn't work for Doctor Who because, at least for NuWho, the (usually) orchestral music that came per episode reflected how characters actually felt and how important plot moments progress.. be it the mostly dreamy music (and occasionally bombastic) that existed when Amy was a companion given the fantasy storyline she had, the spy/synth-based music when Donna was a companion given her character being more prone to questioning the Doctor or being inquisitive, etc.
Even episodes that were bad during Moffat's era at least had some music that will connect in trying to uplift how it feels to watch an episode. Take The Eleventh Hour (not a bad episode but the importance of Gold's music stands) when the Doctor and Amy were literally just doing average running while he's trying to think of how to stop the Atraxi.. without the grand music accompanying that moment it's easy to see it as a stupid scene.
Akinola didn't account for this, but to be fair again to him.. given Chibnall didn't really properly characterize the Doctor or her companions during his tenure, it'd be difficult for Akinola to think of appropriate character specific music anyway during his time. Plus the rendition of the Doctor Who theme song is actually more in line with the classic one which makes it cooler.. if only the rest of it was just as cool
With Murray’s gold music I could probably hum you several things from every single one of his episodes. With Seguns it all just disappears into the background. He’s had a handful of memorable tunes. And some of those are just memorable bits of forgetful stuff.
@@obiwankenobi687 I remember i had been binge watching early Tennant and later in work I started whistling the first few bars of Rose's theme. My manager is nearby and stops dead in his tracks and goes "isn't that roses song from Doctor who, I haven't watched it years" THAT in my mind cements how good Murray gold is.
@@p.jmurray8700
Something similar happened when I was humming the 9th doctor's theme. Something that barely played in the show, and my customer recognized it. It's really amazing how strong the music was with Murray Gold. It even made episodes that I would otherwise hate bearable
The fact that the same score is used for both "omg I never got any presents" and "my wife died a horrible death in vain" just cracks me up.
It's the musical equivalent of Yaz responding to everything from genocide to witch trials with "Yeah, muh family drive me crazy too"
I was gonna like this but didn’t want to mess with perfection. Just know this comment made me laugh a lot.
I'm convinced that the problem largely lies in the way that the show is produced. You get a sense from the Russel and Moffat eras that there was a lot of communication going on between showrunners etc. and the composer, but considering how poorly Chibnall has run everything else I wouldn't be surprised if he just gave Segun incredibly vague notes.
@@LiveHedgehog I find it hard to believe there's any emotion in Chibnall's scripts, the results are so lifeless.
@@ThreadBomb maybe read some of his scripts? The woman who fell to Earth, and al of S12’s shooting scripts are free to download on the BBC’s writers room, as well as a lot of the previous era’s of the show, examples being The Pilot, Blink and some others
The show has lost almost all of it's fun, emotion, passion and creative spark. I know this is just superficial observations but you look at the difference in the way Davies and Moffat talk about Who compared to Chibnall. The formers utterly geek out over Who and their inner child just immediately springs to the surface and you just know they have ideas coming out of every part of their body, many of which obviously wouldn't have made it to the screen, it wasn't just a job it was a childhood dream. Chibnall can't seem to enthuse about anything relating to Who and it really does just come across as simply a job.
Again this is all superficial observations but when you have people like Davies and Moffat who are in the best sense of the word geeks who get giddy over the show, it can feed down into the rest of the production crew who can play off that passion and create TV gold. I feel Chibnall doesn't even begin inspire anything resembling that kind of passion and giddyness Moffat and Davies created even just by being interviewed.
I genuinly wouldn't be surprised if Chibnall only really talked to Segun Akinola at the beginning of a series production for an hour or something giving him basic notes about what we want musically. Or any of the directors in trying to establish any consistency, maybe a one hour meeting at the beginning of each episode and that's it. Just any kind of passion and togetherness to indulge in a passionate project has just gone I feel.
@@LiveHedgehog Perfectly put. No room for interpretation meaning the actors aren't allowed to do 75% of their jobs! Chibnall is a control freak whose ideas are all lifted from Classic Who and filtered through today's Conform or Die lens. No wonder the whole thing is a mess
@@evanson69 Yeah. When the Timeless Child script calls Ryan/Graham/Yaz 'her iconic trio', you know there's something wrong with the writer lol
I remember a moment that really struck me with Murray Gold. In the first episode of series 10, when The Doctor is about to wipe Bill's memory she says "imagine if someone did that to you", and Clara's theme starts playing. I didn't even know I knew Clara's theme, I never really noticed it before, but "my brain knew before I did" and I just started crying. And like, the reference in the dialogue was obvious and fresh, but there is a difference between knowing it's a reference to Clara, and FEELING it with the doctor, like a melody he can't quite place.
So anyways, Murray can tell me what to feel all day long.
Shame we haven’t returned to the practice of rotating composers like Classic Who. Give people like Ben Foster, Dan Watts and Blair Mowat a shot at composing for the show.
Ben Foster already proved a worthy successor with the torchwood series 3 soundtrack.
Please let us have Blair Mowat.
Yes bring back the 80's version of having more than one composer. One of the best things JNT did
@@blobfish5730 OMG I think I would die if we got Blair. In a good way 😍
I’ll tell you who would be great for the show, Dominik Scherrer
Listen to his primeval soundtrack and you’ll see what I mean
My favourite use of Murray Gold's music is in "Army of Ghosts". When the cybermen say the sphere is not theirs, you can hear the Dalek's theme slowly building until the reveal.
I always think this Brian Eno quote encapsulates how ambient music (and to a certain degree, soundtracks) should be constructed: “Ambient music must be able to accommodate many levels of listening attention without enforcing one in particular; it must be as ignorable as it is interesting.”
And I think Segun does that wonderfully. All about opinions, obviously.
Segun's music isn't interesting. Cliff Martinez does it masterfully. Listen to "I Drive" and "Viggo and Diana".
Honestly, the problem with Segun's music that I had was that it always felt like nothingness. No iconic tunes, no depth to it, it just sorta became something I could actually drone out and forget was even there. Segun does have some great tracks - especially his Dalek and Cyberman themes because they both have that big, bombastic presence that I'd grown accustomed to with Gold's music. If Segun can create more themes that have their own identity, have their own presence, I feel like his music would be a lot more fitting.
You have Chibnall to blame for that...
I remember I was chatting with a friend. We were talking about doctor who and I mentioned Donna noble. She wasn't quite sure which companion I was on about till I whistled Donna's theme. She IMMEDIATELY knew which companion she was from just the music.
That truly shows some iconic and memorable music right there.
I love her theme but when I hum it, it always becomes the SATC theme. 😅
@A I And it gives the show additional ways to emotionally manipulate you too ... like when the 12th Doctor plays Clara's theme on his guitar. I'm sure in future anniversary specials playing a few notes from character themes will make nerd ears perk up
wow, first of all how could she not remember Donna lol. second of all that's incredible, the fact that she remembered who she was just from hearing the music really shows how impactful Murray Gold's work is
Excellent point that your brain knows themes even if you're not consciously aware of them, and they maintain their resonance because of how well they're used. You can see that when the brought back Series 3's _"This is Gallifrey"_ all the way in Series 9 and it *still* hit.
While I appreciate that with Doctor Who of all things, the show _must_ go on, losing the cohesive thread of Gold's music really makes the current era of the show feel completely detached from the ten series that came before it.
Murry wipes the floor with him lol, it's not even a comparison. Murry is a composer to match the likes of Hans Zimmer and Steve Jablonsky
The reason 12s theme was used so much, was becuase he had so many great moments.
That theme is so ****ing good. I feel like Murray Gold could watch me take my morning jog and instantly compose an iconic character theme that would embody me as a person and be stuck in everyone's head for all time
I LOVE THAT THEME
Its just so epic
I adore Murray's music. I went to his Concert here in New Zealand. Truly powerful.
A tough act to follow!
Murray Gold... any day of the week. There was a time where I genuinely considered him the best working soundtrack composer for TV
I always felt the current music felt random on when it was placed like the weird drum beaty music when characters are just talking to each other while Murray Gold's sound always had a purpose like the Doctor's theme tune, it always came at a time when the Doctor was about to do something epic
doctor who definitely lost a big piece of itself after murray gold left, even if the writing and the stories are good after chibby leaves, it still won't be the same without Murray.
Good thing he’s coming back now
It's effectually reality-tv music. Building up to non-existant climaxes right before commercial, and playing a moody chord on top of mundane coverage to give it the air of something emotional even though it's just cut-together scraps of what actually happened that day. Game shows do this too.
Gold’s early music could be overly bombastic; but, honestly, I think he got that outta his system during Moffat’s era.
And a lotta his leitmotifs were freakin’ brilliant. From “This is Gallifrey” to Missy’s theme.
And *Heaven Sent*? Wow. Just… wow.
Wow.
But Akinola’s music is just… vaguely eerie background droning. And I guess it works… okay[-ish]… in the series? SoMeTiMeS? But I’d certainly never purchase, download, and/or listen to any of it otherwise. (Except maybe his reworking of the main theme. And that’s not, technically, *his*.)
Like most everything in Chibnall’s era, it just kind of alternates between boring… and irritating. 🤷🏼♂️
Agree 100%
The theme is also my least favourite - sounds like the original being played in an echoing tunnel whilst someone clatters bin lids in time to the music.
Davies and Moffat constructed episodes to work with the bombastic music. I'm sure when Moffat wrote that rooftop scene in the 11th Doctor he was imagining that was the moment when "I am the Doctor" would play. Chibnall likely sees music as an after thought, which is why it is never interesting or memorable or incorporated into the story
@@DjangoCaron I'm not that cynical about it. When Chibnall is gone, it feels like there is really no telling what creative direction the show will take. It could be horrible, it could be awesome, it could be a terrible design by committee job like the Star Wars sequels that overreacts to fan complains as a substitute for creative vision ... who freaking knows. Even based on Chibnall's DW output prior to becoming showrunner, I had no idea the awful direction things could go with him in control, because I just saw him as an OK-ish writer before
Leitmotifs? Do I detect another Sideways fan?
Related but unrelated: I think one of the best tracks Murray Gold ever made was The Shepherd’s Boy. It tells a story in and of itself and the fact that it’s only used twice (three times if you count it’s very early beginnings in the 50th) only makes it more impactful. It’s like the Doctor in a song; beautiful, triumphant and sad all at the same time.
I agree. I often play it and never tire of it.
Everyone has different opinions on what a soundtrack should be, but I completely agree with you. A great soundtrack tells the story all by itself. When I consider some of the best and most memorable soundtracks of all time, I think of things like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings, where the music is as much a part of the story as the action on screen.
A good soundtrack, in my opinion, is one where you can listen to it all on its own and you can see the scene in your head and hear the dialogue as if you were watching it. The music tells the story as much as any other element. If its just a bunch of random background noise, then its a cheap soundtrack.
This entirely encapsulates why The Shepherd's Boy is one of my favourite songs of all time. I love it so much I've even learned how to play it on the piano!
@@noahryan1000 Yeah, me too! 😉 ua-cam.com/video/zqPWKNQwmng/v-deo.html
@@alastairjking Woah I just heard your version of it and it is kind of similar to the one I've been playing. Your version sounds absolutely incredible though!
Murray Gold is just unsurpassable in musical terms. I admire the way Akinola has crafted a lovely Doctor's theme for 13 but that's the only music I could name for you off the top of my head. If you said, what about Graham, Ryan or Yaz's themes, I'd say: "They have themes??" I didn't realise, however, how many times he reused the same monotonous hum in so many scenes. Then again, I haven't really had an interest to go back and rewatch many of the episodes so I wouldn't have taken much notice.
Murray had so many great scores and some of them were so integral to an episode. For instance, Utopia - one of my favourite episodes - is edited and scripted to perfection, but the way The Futurekind and All the Strange, Strange Creatures is structured into the narrative makes it like a blockbuster Hollywood action movie in parts. Since I first saw it as an excited nine year old it has always stayed with me and I used to replay it and copy the Doctor and friends running away from the Future Kind. And the whole bit when it builds up from Yana opening the watch, the Boe reveal, the Doctor's realisation and the Master turning around with his evil eyes...I still get chills to this day. The power of Murray's score could just be magnificent sometimes.
Really agree about Utopia, I definitely have very strong memories of the musical escalation at its climax ever since first seeing the episode back in 2007, and it really participates in how memorable that cliffhanger was for me
Utopia is great and has one of the best soundtracks, The Futurekind is one of my favourite musical tracks and it makes me want to run and feel motivated whenever I hear it
Akinola’s approach to music feels like Michael Bay’s approach to filmmaking.
Every scene you’re being subconsciously told ‘this is important and serious’, and once you realise the comedic beats in there genuinely aren’t important then you start to tune out. Now, if you insist every scene’s important, none of them are.
the themes murray did for each of the companions were perfect, encapsulated their personalities and journeys perfectly
The first time I heard Akinola’s version of the theme tune I had headphones on. The drums were so loud and intrusive, completely crass, that it drowned out the rest of the composition. It offended my ears.
Scenes with no music sound SO much better than with music. That’s insane!
I just want to make a point
List of Classic Who composers:
. Norman Kay
. Tristram Cary
. Richard Rodney Bennett
. Stanley Myers
. Dudley Simpson
. Francis Chagrin
. Raymond Jones
. Charles Botterill
. Humphrey Searle
. Brain Hodgson
. Don Harper
. Carey Blyton
. Geoffrey Burgon
. Peter Howell
. Paddy Kingsland
. Roger Limb
. Malcom Clarke
. Jonathan Gibbs
. Elizabeth Parker
. Dominic Glynn
. Richard Hartley
. Keff McCulloch
. Mark Ayres
The TV Movie:
. John Debney
. Louis Febre
. John Sponsler
Modern Who:
. Murray Gold
. Segun Akinola
When The TV Movie has more composers then the entirety of Modern Who, then that’s saying something
I know series 11 and 12 ain’t great, but imagine how much better it’d be with murray gold
Nah, it would be like polishing a turd.
@@ThreadBomb sometimes that can make something bad feel better that’s something Murray Gold was very good at
I saw a fan edit of revolution of the Daleks where they replaced the music with the Murray Gold soundtrack. While it didn’t change my opinion of the story (plus they also included clips from previous episodes when they were referencing them which I didn’t like) it was an interesting watch at the very least.
@@BH-98 is this on UA-cam?
@@The0thDoctor The edit itself isn't on UA-cam but this video contains a link in the description ua-cam.com/video/RfcYKd93sNY/v-deo.html
The segun “waaaah” (“emotional padding” as you call it) honestly feels like a moody version of a laugh track. “Feel sad here”
I think sometimes Modern Who is too afraid of coming off as cheesy, like these more emotional moments will feel too silly without the music, which adds a sense of emotion and can distract you from what's actually happening. But I think they sometimes need to have more faith in the audience, some of the greatest scenes ever have had no music what so ever
I'm in the minority of people who dislike the 12th Doctors Anti-War speech in The Zygon Invasion, but it was a breath of fresh air to just have silence during the scene
I agree. Not just in Who but also in many dramas, its like they are trying to fill an uncomfortable silence but sometimes silence is good and can just let us appreciate the actors performance more. Somewhere on YT there is a video where they remove the music from Twelves speech in Heaven Sent and while everyone raves about the track 'Shepard's Boy' it was interesting just watching Capaldi deliver the lines, just him, without the superfluous; somewhat surreal with the edit; perhaps almost Shakespearean. I'm not saying it should be all the time but as you said, perhaps makers need to be a bit braver and give us and the actors some 'space' more often.
they definitely take themselves too seriously
On a similar note, as brilliant as Murray Gold is, the absence of music in the "where I fall" speech was perfect
@@MrMichaelBeadle That's another one I forgot about, and it's why it's one of my fav speeches, since most of them feel like an opera at times
may I ask why you dislike the 12ths doctor’s theme
Honestly, you and Jay Exci are doing God's work for the Doctor Who community at the minute, it's so refreshing to see good-faith critical analysis that actually engages with what the current problems with this era are, and even gives credit where it's due in places. More criticism like this will hopefully lead to whoever takes up the reins in 2023 having a blueprint for what went wrong, and how to avoid it happening again.
And lo and behold, look who's taking up the reins :0
@@lukesadler I'm a little worried for RTD. There's a real risk that by the time his new era begins, people will have convinced themselves that it will be a shining moment of golden perfection that will save Doctor Who. And RTD is good, but I'm not sure anyone could meet that standard.
@@irrevenant8724 Completely agree. Personally I'm cautiously hopeful, although I may not enjoy everything he does with it. But yeah, certainly won't be surprised if it doesn't match the wider fanbase's expectations
I think my biggest issue, similar to what you stated, with Gold, with its faults and pluses, every track felt distinct, like crafted for specific scenes or characters. With the current era, apart from a few tracks like Me and My Mates, it feels like it all just blurs into each other
Yes, it was sometimes over the top or a bit repetitive, but it had character and melody, which I think are essential.
For me the main difference is murray gold's music makes you feel something but akinola's music feels like its holding up a placard to a live audience with the words "please feel something now."
The best example is the emotional padding pieces that were pointed out. Where something that chibnalls thought "yeah theres some emotion here" just slaps a light synth piece there.
I don't think it's that subjective murry gold is a genius
He's created some of the best music ever on TV. So many times he created the sense that he, the director, editor, actors and writer were completely aligned.
I haven't rewatched doctor who since like 2013 but hearing the first second of Rose's theme instantly gave me goosebumps ...😭 too bad the new direction doesn't use music that would stick in your head like that even if they play the same tune 90 times per episode
Everything from Segun is generic and unmemorable, I don’t remember a single track. Murray is still a masterful composer.
OwO verified senpai
massive generalisation, there are brilliant tracks from both seasons they're just not as consistent unfortunately
I can remember the music that plays then 13 builds the screwdriver and when she enters the new Tardis for the first time ... that's it
Segun's new Dalek, Master and Cyberman themes are all memorable, I've had the Cyberman theme stuck in my head since Ascension of the Cybermen aired
@@dalekbumps bet, hum it
He's back!!!!!!!
Perfectly summed it up I think. I really miss Murray Gold's scores and motifs; I like the way he used the music to build character familiarity. Not just that of course, they all slapped as well
Thing is, this music is fine… if it was for an American procedural like CSI or something - not Doctor Who.
Yes. If you've seen the way the music for those shows is produced, this seems to be the same thing, just one guy at a keyboard slamming out background textures very quickly. Does he even have the option of using an orchestra like Gold did, or has the music budget been stripped right back?
@@ThreadBomb Series 1's OST was literally a guy at a keyboard slamming out background textures very quickly. Look at what was achieved with just that, and compare it to Akinola's work.
It might be bland, but the music in those scenes is not nearly as bad as the wooden acting and clunky screenplay that it accompanies! Priorities.
It doesn't need a whole video... we already know the answer
I'm surprised the Eleventh Doctor theme wasn't mentioned here, it seems like every single Eleventh Doctor era episode had that theme blasting for the last ten minutes as the Doctor does Doctory things to defeat the bad guys
People complained about Murray Gold music not being subtle or something ... but I never got that because the show was explicitly going for an a bombastic adventure serial vibe and that is why you have stuff like obvious character themes ... the same stuff you would get if you were watching Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Pirates of the Caribbean etc ... I'm not expecting subtly when Luke Skywalker blows up the Death Star or defeat Jabba's goons on the sail barge, and I'm not expecting subtly when the Doctor is giving a rousing speech to take down the villain of the week. Segun Akinola is capable of writing good tracts (for some reason, I can still remember the "Ghost Monument" track years later regardless of how easily forgotten the rest of the episode was) but the overall direction of the show has clearly stripped away any sense of musical identity in the show, it has kind of forgotten to have any kind of style here at all.
With Murray’s gold music I could probably hum you several things from every single one of his episodes. With Seguns it all just disappears into the background. He’s had a handful of memorable tunes. And some of those are just memorable bits of forgetful stuff
Rewatch the death of Lynda With a Y to witness peak Gold.
The mixing between score and sound design is sublime.
Do we know who edited the music for the episodes? Because he/she is the real criminal/culprit. I'm mean I'm really not a fan of Akinola, there is some good musics but most of it just feels like drawn out noises.
Akinolas music sounds like the battlefield 4 soundtrack IN EVERY SCENE
This video resonates hard. The endless pads. The lack of memorable melodies. Thank god the pain is over. Now who is next!?
The Shepherd's Boy
vs
Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
it's a close one
I sincerely request a cover of the Sheperds Boy using only the bwaaaaaaaaaa’s with their pitch changed and stuff
Damn ... imagine Heaven Sent .... but instead of Murray Gold's music that was all carefully crafted to set a specific tone ... it was all droning synth music
@@TheJadedJames Someone doesn’t get a joke. Yes it wouldn’t compare to beautifully crafted music, it would just be a laugh
The use of Murray Gold's theme for the Cybermen and the accompanying pieces in the final act of "Army of Ghosts" is some of the best use of music I've seen in anything. It builds and builds as the situation spirals out of control, stop suddenly, leaving you tense just before the Cybermen reveal themselves, then builds up even more until we reach *that* cliffhanger. Every time I think of those scenes, the music is the first thing I hear in my mind.
Ironically, aside from the tiresome ambient "sad" synth, the cue I remember most from Segun Akinola is the Defence Drone theme, which starts like a rip-off of "The Cybermen"!
Seguns music is literally Two notes and then it’s done and then there’s Murray golds *A Masterpiece*
This feels like a chad vs virgin meme
donna's theme for example is so smart it almost feels like her in composition
As a few others have pointed out, it's a shame Akinola didn't use and expand upon the leitmotifs (ie the cyberman theme, dalek theme, etc) written by Gold.
I have to say that during this era, the soundtracks gave me a headache.
I miss Murray Gold
The Murray gold music is so much more diverse, the 2008 and 2013 doctor who at the proms will never be topped!
I thought they had just abandoned the musical score after Murray Gold left. I can't remember one piece of music from the Chibnall Era.
Murray Gold is the Tom Baker of doctor who soundtracks... no shit i got tired too but damn if it didn't define the modern era of this show. Oh an is it even modern anymore?
A bit of a tangent to start with, but go with me on this. Last year, when lockdown first started, I got into watching all the Studio Ghibli films on Netflix, and the thing that stuck with me when watching them (aside from the excellent characters and animation) was how sparsely the music was used throughout. If you've seen a single film, or even listened to any of the pieces on UA-cam or Spotify, you'll know that they're fantastic compositions, but within the films themselves, the music shows up rather infrequently, with most of the film's runtime being taken up by extended periods of quiet, with the only other things you can hear being the ambient noise of the environment (i.e. the rain, the wind, the rustling of trees, the noises of animals, the roars of engines). This means that the locations feel more realistic in spite of the sheer fantastical nature, which allows the audience to become fully immersed in the story and the world, while also meaning that when the music does come in, it feels significant and like the moments and corresponding emotions have been earned. You can probably tell where I'm going with this.
Obviously this is kind of unfair, since I'm comparing a set of superbly well-made Japanese animated films with two mediocre seasons of a British sci-fi TV show, but my point still stands. I don't think the actual compositions that Segun's come up with are bad by any stretch - Thirteen's theme is pretty cool, especially the version that plays over her making her new screwdriver, as well as the John Barry-esque variation we get in "Spyfall"; the new themes for the Daleks, Cybermen and Master are great; 'The Lighthouse', the piece that plays over the Ruth Doctor's reveal is awe-inspiring; and while I'm not keen on the episode itself, most of the pieces in "The Timeless Children" are rather good. The problem is that by having a constant layer of ambient background music, it numbs you to the soundtrack itself, and thus the effectiveness of the music and the emotions it's trying to convey are diminished. Hell, I didn't even take note of how great the aforementioned compositions are until I listened to them in isolation on UA-cam. I feel like this is another part of Chibnall's attempts to appeal to an audience that he perceives as having a short attention span, as much like having the characters give exposition that blandly spells out what's obviously happening onscreen, he seems to think he's going to lose the audience's attention if there isn't a constant bed of background music. Unfortunately, by doing so the effectiveness of the music is undercut, and as a further consequence, I can't fully lose myself in the new worlds and environments, because I keep getting taken out of the story by the constant intrusive soundtrack
Murray Gold leaving Doctor Who was like Jim Johnston leaving WWE.
The best description of akinola's work I've heard was 'Ominous Noise' -DoctorWhumour
Blimey that was quick 😂
I was literally asking for someone on YT to make a video like this yesterday!
Murray Gold is world class and Segun Akinola will be able to carry a tune one day if he lives a really long time.
I hope Murray gold comes back at least for RTD2
Very, very well said. I couldn’t have put it better
I definitely disagree with the bits about Capaldi’s am I a good man music. I loved Murray gold in Capaldi’s time, I think it’s lovely. And that theme gets me every time.
The big issue is that all of the tracks are fucking indistinguishable. If “A Good Man” started playing, you’d be on the edge of your seat because 12’s gonna arrive, if “This is Gallifrey: Our Childhood. Our Home” started playing, you’d instantly recognise it. Good luck picking out “Thirteen” from any ambient sounds
AuthorOfOne love This is Gallifrey so much
Akinola has actually inspired me to take up music theory and, just in the last few days, playing instruments for the first time.
There are two things hampering his work, in my opinion. Firstly, the opportunities he has been given to score for aren’t as loud or character focused. ROTD is much more character focused for example, and thus is littered with companion themes, but other episodes aren’t so much. I think it’s also worth noting that the Team TARDIS theme is really the focus of S11/12 in many scenes - and the investigation theme.
Secondly, Akinola is much less marketed and self-marketed. What I mean by this is that a) he hasn’t been given an opportunity outside of the show to say to a mass audience “Hey, this is Yaz’s Theme” for example, while Gold had many proms to showcase his work. My second point on marketing is that he doesn’t self-market that often. Gold’s scores sometimes felt to me as if they were scored for the character, then inserted into an episode. While Akinola makes much more subtle themes, inserts them into the episode’s sound world and then releases the episode score. This means there’s no full arrangement of any of the companion themes. 2:30 in Made a New Friend is Graham’s theme, without the hinderance of a Grace note for the first time I believe. Grace also has a theme that appears in so many episodes, and it’s very synthy but I feel it represents the loss well. These are things you often won’t notice unless you a) definitely listen to the released score, not the one on the episode, because that’s gone through an editing process, and b) pay attention to the score.
Richard Lloyd has a great series highlighting many of these themes and their use. Akinola’s music basically never reappears exactly the same, which obviously Gold did a lot. Maybe that’s why you recognise them more, or because they’re pointed out as “Rose’s Theme” on the soundtrack. He’s a great musician so usually spots these things - Akinola has made over 50 leitmotifs, some are easier to spot than others but once you’ve assigned a name to it then you are much more likely to recognise it.
I read somewhere once that it’s a similar thing with colours - if you never assign a name to the colour cyan, and show someone blue and cyan, they’ll probably say it’s just a different shade of blue.
I wrote a letter to Akinola a few weeks ago after the announcement of Chibnall leaving, because my opinion had completely changed on his music - I agreed with what you said in this at first. The changing point for me was Resolution, and looking back there’s some amazing musical moments throughout S11, and forwards at the time in S12.
Tesla’s theme is one of the best leitmotifs in this era appearing for just one episode meanwhile someone like Mickey never got a theme. So when it’s HIS big decision to stay in that parallel world, Rose’s theme plays. It’s lovely but I think it’s times like that when I realised that Gold was focused so much on the companions that it left the subtly of respecting other important characters behind.
TLDR, Segun has a lot of subtly, I think his constantly changing episodes soundscapes keep the score fresh but can hinder the connection viewers have to it - however if you are willing to listen outside of the episode you’ll start to notice things that a lot of work has gone into making something quite unique.
Ah forgot to mention - in my letter, I asked for dedicated releases of the companion themes like Thirteen. I think this would really help, but I don’t know how much time and money these things take so we’ll see.
I agree. I like the new modern music. I think sometimes it might miss the mark and sometimes sounds like I'm playing a video game because music is playing all the time but I think the atmosphere created by the music really helps connect me to the stories.
Murray Gold's music is beyond spectacular. He was able to combine trauma, loss, hope and love together with a grandiose sci-fi sound that people did take for granted.
Hence why I've always defended the naysayers of Murray Gold's music because I knew when he left the show, it would be a long time before the show would find someone to fill his shoes as Doctor Who composer.
I can't with that high pitched drone that you kept finding! I was crying, it was hilarious! And when you took the music out of the scene, I didn't realise how much the music influenced my dislike of the scenes (and I briefly studied film scoring), but it makes a lot of sense. I would also add that Murray Gold flirts quite a lot with Mickey Mousing. The music often moves with the characters or the camera, which even if it's quite garish music, it does work. It's like they dance with each other at times, which is awesome.
I've never noticed the pads before but once you hear it you can't unhear it
The only Segun piece I remember is the thirteenth doctor's theme and the new Doctor who intro music.
The Murray Gold pieces I remember include The Doctor's Theme, All the Strange Strange Creatures, Four Knocks, Clara, I am the Doctor, A Good Man, Mad Man in a Box, The Shepherd's Boy, Song of Freedom, The Cyberman theme, The long and endless Dalek night, Vale Decem, The Long Song (I could go on for ages)
The Murray Gold collaboration with Neil Hannon, love don't roam, that's an absolute corker 😍
And I think hearing that dalek city music has an extra level of "retroactive" dread when it makes you think of what they are about to unleash, so to speak. Like at the end of the universe where there's nothing but cockroaches and daleks, that's the music that will be heard.
Also, I'd love the show to have music similar to the movie "it follows". That soundtrack has a lot of sound that reminds me of classic Who but modern.
My biggest problem with Segun's music is that it feels stocky 99% of the time, like it was taken from some royalty free music website.
I listen to Murray Gold's music and I relive moments and a lot of the time bawl my eyes out. Is it bombastic? Yes. Saccharine? I dunno, maybe a bit sometimes. Does it work for a show like Doctor Who which is this magical sci-fi/fantasy/heartstring-tugging comedic escapist show? Absolutely.
If I will remember anything about the Chibnall era it will be watching episodes wondering when they are going to begin and waiting to feel ... something. Honestly, the blandness of it: I feel sorry for Jodie Whittaker and the actors involved. The generic music in this series - although the Doctor theme was lovely (but pretty forgettable) - has added to that. I won't remember a single motif or theme from any of the series. It is like they had to strip the show of its unique character and rebuild it to be like everything else on tele 🥺
I went on a bit of a rant last time I talked about Segun vs Murray. I'll sum it up briefly:
Segun is an excellent musician, or they wouldn't have hired him, but it feels like he's doing the minimum of effort for the show, or he's trying something that isn't working.
You say he wouldn’t be hired if he wasn’t good and I ask which chibnall episode of doctor who is good
@@creed8712 good point
(although I personally like his Silurian 2 Parter in Series 5)
@@Newt.--.Jaeden In an interview Segun did allude that he was trying out new sounds in series 11. There did seem to be more of a cohesion of recognisable, repeatable themes in series 12. As with anything its probably a learning and growing thing. We had 10 series of Murray's work, we've only seen 2 of Segun. Its not to everyone's taste but its at least something different to that which went before.
It's freaking frustrating that the last two series have instantly received official soundtrack releases (like, everything sounds the same, what's the need for a soundtrack release?!) and series 10 which has one of the best pieces by Murray Gold never saw an official soundtrack release.
Gold composes in a very classical driven way, he's big on leitmottifs and he has the music reach a climactic moment when the action on screen reaches one. The 'Good Man' music is overused but it serves a purpose when it does get used, typically it's in series 8 when 12 has a moment where he has to make a moral decision so that question is forefront in his mind. I find "I am the Doctor' was far more overused though.
With the new one I should be able to at least identify 13s theme and I can't. Leitmottifs are important, they tell you about the characrer, the sparse vocals of the Doctor's theme from series 1-3 highlighted the lonely nature of the character post time war, the series 4 version is far more big and orchestral because 10 by that stage is determined to save everyone he can in any situation so it's more heroic. 11s is very much a gradual build up of the same melody which fits as he tends to be fairly showy when facing down his enemies. 12 I consider to have 2 themes, Good Man has these ups and downs to indicate his constant questioning of his own morality and there's also a child like quality to it with the high pitched instrument at the start before it turns into self assured brass. Then Shepard Boy is used as a secondary theme for a while and Heaven Sent tells you what that's all about.
13s theme just doesn't showcase who she is which is difficult to do because the show still doesn't seem to know
That final Good Man in Twice Upon a Time is just so emotional. I just want it on a soundtrack now! ☹
Jack - you are always so absolutely spot-on!
Crazy how the just the first chord of 1:55 had me about to tear up. Thanks for bringing up the pads from recent DW, it's always been bothering me so it's good to have someone else who notices it. Great analysis!
If there’s a composer I’d love to see work on this show other than Gold, it would be Benjamin Bartlett. He’s very good at making emotional and memorable leitmotifs, and “sound worlds” of overarching themes that fit the atmosphere of a particular environment.
Incredible work mate!
The Murray gold music has become part of doctor who.
The best comparison I can think of is the music in lord of the rings films
LOTR has the GOAT of Music!!!
And I take Murray Gold's DW Music similar to Howard Shore's LOTR Music as a High Compliment!!!
The Chad Murray Gold versus the virgin Segun Akinola
4:09 this is actually part of Grace’s theme it’s the same pattern that plays in s11 when they talk about Grace - i think it’s the only time i really like hearing those pads
The thing I hate the most is that BOOM BOOM sound that plays at anything even slightly dramatic.
Segun has some great tracks. The music when 13 is crafting her screwdriver, the really pacy race against time stuff in Revolution, and Spyfall are favs. The cyberman theme is good but massively overshadowed by Murray Gold's, because it takes just 6 notes to make you realise exactly which villains are about to show up.
I absolutely hate the ambient stuff though, it's just such a mood killer because it makes everything feel contemplative even when the scene should be funny.
This is something in the overall vibe of the show I'd complained about since the moment Chibnall began, but others didn't quite listen right away. I felt like Chibnall is directing the show almost like a moody procedural even though it still has the same ridiculous plots as back when Davies/Moffat wrote it and they embraced the inherent ridiculousness of it with the tone they set. It hurts even more because Whittaker is clearly trying to model her performance on Smith/Tennant the two most obviously high energy and eccentric Doctor's ... only she's being overwhelmed by boring incongruous synth music
Oh my god the emotional Pads reveal is so fucking funny. I hadn't noticed how common it was because I've only watched the episodes once and oh my god it's a fucking meme
Who hired Segun? He doesn't have much going for him before Doctor Who
Listening to the examples here, at least, I have noticed one major difference between Murray Gold and Segun Akinola.
Murray Gold tells you what to feel, but Segun Akinola just tells you that it is time to feel something. It feels like the same cue, no matter what the scene, that just says 'insert feelings here'. As overwhelming as Gold's music was at times, at least you could take it out of the scene and listen to it seperately and recognise that it came from a light-hearted scene, or an action scene, or whatever.
It's also synched to the performances and the performances and the soundtrack work around each other. Look at when Donna meets the Doctor again in Partners in Crime: the music is obnoxiously comedic and quirky, but it still works because the acting fits inside of it rather than being overpowered by music coming in a layer above.
I actually really like Segun Akinola's music out of context from the series, Thirteen's theme is one of my top favourites imo, it's just the perfect music to listen to while scrolling through Hubble ESA photos
Thank you for this. I knew I missed Murray Gold's music, and I knew the new music wasnt doing it for me - the whole soundscape felt off - but I wasnt able to pin down why, other than the lack of recognisable and repeated character / topic themes - (something Gold does so well, and which I haven't seen done as well anywhere else except for Bear McCReary's score for Battlestar Galactica) - just the way the music is used in each episode felt so off and I couldn't quite work out why.
I see you too are a fan of those hack frauds from Wisconsin!
When I hear Donna / Rose / Martha's theme, I get a chill. I instantly get a feel for who they are.
“Their life verses 7 billion others”
Wasn’t much of a moral dilemma back in S11 compared to S12
Murray's tunes are great. My favourites are the Amy Pond theme and The Shepherd's Boy (from "Heaven Sent": there's an hour-long version on UA-cam) but for me the most magical is Bill's Mum Just Went Viral. I wish it were longer. I only really like the distinctive pieces of Segun's output such as the Master's theme and the TARDIS going through the vortex.
Murray Gold can go toe to toe with John Williams IMO. Doctor Who is his Star Wars saga.
If you put the Series 4 Dalek theme over the scene where the Daleks arrive in Revolution of the Daleks, the music fits exactly to the shot changes, and ends exactly at the point where the Daleks land on the bridge and gave a face-off. I did it in Premiere, and it fits perfect.
I quite like the tense thumping sci-fi music for the new Cybermen theme. It works in that context IMO.
Honestly I think Murray Golds work was on Doctor Who was so brilliant and cinematic, that it became as much a part of the shows identity as John Williams music is to Star Wars, the problem is while The Doctor regenerated, companions came and went, and showrunners/production teams/writers changed over, the musical identity always stayed the same, and now Segun's came in and tried to change things up and put his own stamp on the show... it just feels wrong.
I feel bad for Segun because on any other TV Series his music would probably be alright, decent even, but no-one in the Doctor Who budget was ever going to live up to Gold.
We need Murray Gold Vs Sam Watts Vs Ben Foster Music next for the Doctor Who Universe
What did you think of the Flux soundtrack? I thought the Flux theme was one of the best thing Akinola has done so far (not hard to top considering the poor quality so far lol)