SAILBOAT REBUILD - what they DON'T TELL YOU about PRODUCTION BOATS - Plastskador repair week 2
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- Опубліковано 1 лют 2021
- This week we look more into the construction of a production boat compared to a hand built boat. It was also interesting to learn what parts need to be ground down and what access holes need to be cut away. I also have some projects in mind, one of them being a bigger bilge pump and some cables also need running. The keel bolts are looking good so I don’t think they need replacing. So far so good.
![1 YEAR REBUILDING AN OLD BOAT INTO A MODERN YACHT TIMELAPSE [START TO FINISH]](/img/n.gif)
I'm a boat builder in the uk and have had to repair a number of yachts with similar damage.
I think I've seen four Oceanis 34's in the past couple of years for example.
Couple of things that struck me from the video.
Your info re epoxy is incorrect.
I agree that laminating strength would be fine using polyester or even better, vinylester.
However this repair relies on bonding performance to a vinylester hull as well as laminating.
Bonding performance of vinylester on cured vinylester laminate is reasonable.
The bonding performance of polyester however is poor.
Epoxy will significantly outperform both.
Finishing of the inside of the hull using a white epoxy primer is just as easy as gellwashing it, with the added benefit of the epoxy being watertight where'as the gelcoat is microporus. (hense Osmosis)
I would also advise the use of Polysulphide sealant such as Arbokol1000 for the keel joint.
You really don't need the adhesive qualities of Sika or Saba as thats what the Keel bolts are there for.
What you do need is the sealing qualities and Adhesive Sealants tend to lose their sealant qualities long before the adhesive.
Overtime when the sealant hardens it loses its flex and water will creep in via capilary action to the root of the keelbolts providing the ideal conditions for crevis crack corrosion.
I have seen this numerous times.
Much better to use a flexible sealant that does not harden over time and rely on the keelbolts to hold the keel on as thats what they're there for.
And if ever the keel has to come off again you dont rip part of the hull off .
@@billhanna8838 We have a rule here at the yard that if its bolted down (cleats, fairleads, tracks, hatches etc) then use Arbokol or even butyl tape. The main resoning is that the majority of these fittings will be removed again within 10 years for one reason or another.
Also keelbolts are not a tighten up and forget job, they need re tightening to the correct torque on a regular basis (every two or three years) as the bolts do stretch a little, the laminate will compress a little.
Hi Mike, it sounds like you have a lot of experience, I appreciate you watching. Thanks for the input It's good to compare different procedures and materials.
About the polyester... you will see more of this in the next video but I will explain. As you said Polyester resin on it's own will not laminate well to vinylester, this is why the Crestafix polyester adhesive is used to create the initial bond between the hull and the first layer of glass and as you know this is the most important part. Plastskador have done multiple tests with this method and it's proved extremely strong. The glass is then laid on top and the polyester resin can then be wetted in. Also the reason the polyester is used is because it's more than strong enough for this application, Plastskador have witnessed many times, previously repaired boats that have been grounded again come back with damages located in the next weakest area in the boat. Usually the damage new damage is located further up the hull and not in the previously repaired area. As you mentioned there are ways of finishing the epoxy using primer but gelcoat can be applied to the polyester and in my opinion will create a nicer finish and closer to the way it looked leaving the factory.
When it comes to the keel, Plastskador have seen on occasion that the shock of a grounding can sometimes strip the bolts and because the sealant is flexible it will pull the keel back towards the boat. I saw this fist hand with our boat, the bolts held but there was water in the bilge directly after the grounding. The leak had stopped because the adhesive pulled the keel back up and resealed the gap. I personally I would prefer both a sealant and adhesive holding the keel on for maximum safety, I wouldn't want to rely on just the bolts. You can see at the end of my first repair video how much extra holding strength it gives the keel. Thanks for the advice on the chemicals though, I will check them out, cheers
On the maxi 1000 owners website nice article on removal of a glassed in keel recessed what a nightmare it is to get off compared to this one - echoing the builders chaps points above some thought on maintenance helps - this boat in question did not sink or loose it’s keel and can be mended - good result nice work
@@gbr562 Yes seen a Bavaria s keel twice removed (Charter boat & Funny same rock) Not a nice ending with the keel epoxied , Medium Job become a major repair
I had a brand new yacht custom built I later was shocked at how thin the laminations were. I later bought an older yacht that was built by a well respected builder and the difference in strength is extraordinary. Years later this yacht still looks new. Zero stress fractures.
It's amazing what a little extra can do with boat building, it's all about the budget I guess :)
This makes me feel great about our decision to buy an older Swan rather than a (much) newer Beneteau for similar money.
So good to hear progress is being made and also to be stronger and better, theres always something new to learn, I hope you guys get it back in the water before summer!
Thank you. Yes we are trying to look at the positive side of the situation, learning along the way and yes she will be stronger when she is done. We can't wait for the new season and to big back on the water. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Thanks brother for the detailed video. I'm hoping to buy a sailboat in the future and still learning a lot. Seeing the inter workings and hull is a big help!
Thank you Dwight! Wish you good luck, and hope you dream of a sailboat is just around the corner. There is a lot to learn indeed, and it never stops. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Excellent presentation, and very informative. Also the comment section has some great experts. Subscribed straight away.
Thanks very much, hope you enjoy our channel 😀
Subscribed -- right away. Super interesting, will binge watch all of your episodes. Thanks for sharing.
No worries, I hope you enjoy. Trying to bring some good content. Cheers
I find it really interesting to watch and learn more. Yes it was an unfortunate charter accident that you would rather not have had. But on the positive side, the boat should be stronger because of it. Thanks for another informative video.
Thanks Andy! Yes, she will be a stronger boat when the new season starts. Hope you will be joining us on Aurora one day?! Stay safe and take care, Chris & Tanja
Truly great and helpful vid. I believe the industry will see a partial return to integrated, modified full keels. Subscribed. Thx.
Glad you found it useful, you are more than welcome
Very interesting video, when bilge pumps and float switches are great when they work, but have their challenging moments like when the connections corrode, thanks again for a great video
Test them every trip. Even so they only fail when you need them.
Hi Franki. Thank you so much! We actually bought the new bilge pump, tested it in the kitchen, with a flooded kitchen as a result:-) Yes, you are right maintenance is key for everything to work when you need it. Also something to do on boat! All the best, Chris & Tanja
A good summary. Aligns with my experience having been there myself. On my yacht the workmanship for the repair was absolutely top notch.
Hi Jeremy. Thank you so much! Sad to hear that you also had to go through this, but good to hear that you had a good experience with the workmanship. All the best, Chris & Tanja
@@SailingAurora Mine was caused by a faulty lift where the entire weight of the boat was concentrated on the back of the keel, but had the same effect. An initial bang like a pistol shot, then the expensive sound of cracking fibre glass as the matrix crumbled. Quiet disheartening.
Fantastic footage and description. Keep it up!
Hi Frank. Thank you so much, glad you likes it. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Very nice vid- as an owner of a 458 I love to see the technical side of our boats
Thank you so much, glad that you like it. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Thanks for the videos guys. My heart bleeds for you watching this. Also seen the Expedition Evans ones recently. My father had a Beneteau Oceanis 54 which was in charter in Turkey and had it grounded. Was very painful to see back then too. Im sure it will be built back stronger if you get it all epoxy glassed back in rather than bonded.(Dont know why they still do that tbh after seeing Cheeki Rafiki...but at least you have a nice large keel bolt plate in there.) I have a Jeanneau 349 with swing keel. Comes with its own challenges. I hope if (and probably when) I ground it the keel swings back like its supposed to. Only held on with 4 bolts (2 each side) through a threaded transverse keel swing shaft. All the best. Fair winds. David
Thanks for the comment, always nice to hear what other people are going through aswell. The expedition Evans one has been really interesting to follow, can't say I agree with everything they did, but they did an awesome job. A grounding is always painful. Cheers, Chris
Just stumbled on this and subbed. It looks like there’s a lot of history for me to catch up on, which I’m really looking forward to. Best wishes. David
Hi David. Welcome, hope you will enjoy the videos:-) Cheers, Chris & Tanja
You shouldn't need a thru-hull for a bilge pump. It is normal practice to discharge through an open port in the transom above sea level (with a flapper/check valve to prevent backflow). The pump should be more than capable of lifting the flow to the required level. Either way, you don't want a T to restrict flow. You should have a dedicated hose (with no connections or restrictions), end to end for both manual and electric pumps.
Hi Stephen, thanks for the advice. I am still thinking how best to do it. It may not be easy on the transom. Watch this space. Cheers, Chris
Hey Chris, you will be getting some of the 'Expedition Evan's' crew over here soon :).
I am so pleased to see the work going ahead and being done correctly. I believe you are correct in saying you will have a better boat at the end of this process. Hypothetically if I was to choose your boat new for your proposed round the world journey or after its repair I would hands down choose it after the repair.
Hi Paul. Yes, we also find it very interesting to follow and compare the process with 'Expedition Evans'.
We wish it hadn't happened in the first place, but you are absolutely right, the boat will be stronger when done, so overall it's a bad situation that will have a positive outcome. Cheers Chris & Tanja
@@SailingAurora I'm an Evans subscriber too. Just found you and subscribed today. Avocet is good too. And Mads of course! Uma! Is that huge hose vacuum air or pressure air?
unfortunately ... these boats are VERY poor candidates for real tough off shore work - they are at best coastal cruisers not real off shore boats.. When the going gets tough out there and the compromises in design - ballast displacement ratios etc. show themselves - these boats go up for sale after ONE passage... There are many boats that made it to Tahiti and then go up for sale... boats that should never have ventured out on passage in the first place... The exact same thing is true for Expedition Evans... it will be educational to watch them venture off shore with that boat and see how they fare... VERY educational... There is a big difference between a production boat and a boat built and designed for real off shore work... Experience is a CRUEL teacher..
@@danerlich7393 Just a thought there is another side......the POSITIVE side.......Beneteau Boat, Novice Sailor who goes on to travel the globe, meets girl, falls in love, then goes on to create the worlds most successful UA-cam sailing channel 'Sailing La Vagabonde' .......Experience LIFETIME OPPORTUNITY LIVED NOT LOST. (Outremer 2017 - present). Over 1.5Million Subscribers
I am sorry you see Experience as a CRUEL teacher..
As a fellow Australian I am proud of Riley and how he started out, in a perfect world I would not have chosen a Beneteau BUT that's the point we don't live in a perfect 20/20 world with UA-cam perception and hindsight about everything. A good deal on a boat came up and the rest is history. Are Expedition Evans going to be 'schooled' by your CRUEL teacher, I hope not, but it certainly seems there are many like you who simply can't wait for that chance which is rather sad.
There will always be risks and there will always be boats better suited to certain conditions. It is up to each individual to weigh those risks and plan their voyages around this great planet accordingly, taking into account their knowledge and ability along with the capabilities of their vessel.
@@Paul_Crosbie Heh, you chose Vagabonde as comparison to circumnavigation. UA-cam allows them as the Wynns, to sail when they choose. Thats not sailing. Thats making videos on a sailboat.
And yes, experiance is a very very hard teacher. Ask anyone that lost a boat and survived. I did.
I came here from a comment on Expedition Evans and look forward to watching your journey. Liked, subscribed and rang the bell!
Hi James. Welcome to the channel! Yes we are also following Expedition Evans, what an amazing job they have done! Stay safe, Chris & Tanja
@@SailingAurora Yes, amazing job. I recall Sailing Uma's Kika and Dan also did quite a bit of work reinforcing and improving the grid on their Pearson 37, and no question it was a good boat to start with, but now even stronger. I'll have to mention Leo Sampson, who is restoring a wooden pilot boat "Tally Ho", but similar concepts apply. I definitely would be interested in seeing a comparison of the various techniques / tradeoffs.
I know exactly what you’re going through, my sailboat was grounded last year by me and is in a workshop in Oxelösund now. Because of the Covid they didn’t let me see it while in repair shop and today the keel was mounted back. Next week they will finish up and the boat is ready for a new season. Because of your video , tomorrow I will be driving there and have a look at my boat, I haven’t seen it in a month and I miss her allot. At least your boat is closer to where you live and you can see the progress .I also live in Stockholm area but driving 250km both ways is not something you can do every day. My boat was repaired in about 2 weeks.
See u on the water and keep making this videos, by the way, good job on editing 😁!
Aww man, sorry you have had to go through this experience also. I hope the visit went well to your boat. I miss our boat even if it's only been a few days. Thanks for the compliment, hope to see you on the water, cheers Chris
I rebuilt an old CAL34. Already a strong boat but I added several layers of fiberglass to every joint I could access, on the recommendation of a surveyor. Now it is as stiff as a board. Zero flexing. Gives me a lot of confidence offshore
Hi Stephen. Yes, the only thing that is positive about this situation is that the boat will be stronger when it comes out of the workshop. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Nice progress - keep at it!
Thank you, and thanks for following. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
It is really entertaining to watch boat repairs. 👍
Thanks. Yes, really interesting. Stay safe, Chris & Tanja
Looking like a really good repair..cheers
Hi Brian, yes we are really happy with the process and plan for the repair. Stay safe, Chris & Tanja
I found this video to be very well explained and that I learnt a lot from it. Subscribed due to that.
Thanks Susan, sorry so late to reply. Really appreciate your comment
I'm following another channel called Expedition Evans and they bought a salvage beneteau that also grounded causing the same damage as yours, they did exactly the same stripped the bonding and laminated everything back in. they did it themselves, you're lucky you got someone to do it for you
Hi Werner. We are also following Expedition Evans and the fantastic job that they are doing. Ours is an insurance case, so yes we are lucky that we have professionals to do it. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Some great info on production boat construction! Cheers.
Hi there, Thank you so much, glad you found it interesting! Stay safe, Chris & Tanja
The second bilge pump is a definite Go Ahead. The one you have is way too Pussy for a boat of this size and investment. A separate hose and discharge port is a definite Yes. I also do not like standing water in my bilge--always want to determine how it got there?!-Mikey, Belfair, Wa, USA
My thinking exactly. I just need to mount an anti syphon valve at some point in the pipe. Since this video the bilge pump is mounted and will work well I think. Thanks for the comment
Thank you for your showing other repairs in your last video....its amazing how much the manufacture's cut cost by using bonding materials in key strength area's...to keep costs down....as they say in many things (TIME IS MONEY) 😠 instead of quality ...😢 and care of the final product....🤔
Hi Bruce. Thank you, glad you liked the video. Yes, you are definitely making some trade off when buying a production boat. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Hi Chris, thank you for another very informative video. Lets hope that Aurora will indeed inherit some benefits of a custom yacht!
On the subject of the new bilge pump, Johnson quotes 4 times more flow than the stock Xylem (Jabsco). It is however double the height of the stock pump (216mm vs 111mm) so I doubt it can fit under the floorboard. An alternative that I am considering is to fit a second Xylem pump close to the original one, that only activates once the original pump is overwhelmed. In addition, it might be a good idea to install a 3rd pump in the forward cabin. Water could go anywhere when you are sailing.
In any case, the through-hull should be above water level at all angles of heel. But the higher you go the pump's performance will be dramatically reduced, so I think the best option is what Hanse already does, i.e. take the hose aft, right below the platform opening.
btw I am planning a transatlantic voyage in a couple of years by joining the ARC rally in November 2023. If this may trigger your interest and fix a date, just think about it!
All the best
Hi Aristides, No worries, happy to share, she will be very strong when finished. Thanks for the info on the bilge pump, I purchased the Johnson yesterday actually, I measured it and it will fit. It might sound like a stupid question but can I ask why you need the bilge pump to be out of the water at all angles of heel. I was thinking that if I put a big enough U bend in it, it should be fine, also there will be a none return valve on it. I'm not saying your wrong, just want to know the thoughts behind it as I am still deciding where to run the hose. Also a good idea with the bow bilge pump, it maybe a future project.
Sounds great with the ARC rally, are you asking for crew or another boat to join? I am definitely interested. Cheers
you should check out how X-Yachts mount their keel into a steal craddle that also takes the mast and the spreaders. Had a grounding with my X-442 on an uncharted rock after Tsunami in Thailand, at about 6 knots, the boat stopped with a massive bang, but we managed to here off the rock. On inspection, the lower led keel itself had some holes and scoops of led missing. The keel to hull bond was solid all around, no cracks in the hull or keel mount area. Inside the craddle was in perfect shape, no delamination, keel bolts straight and undamaged. Back in the water in a few days. X-Yachts !
Sounds like you got very lucky, i saw an x yacht being repaired the other day, would put the picture here if possible. The X yachts are awesome boats, you really get what you pay for but it comes at a cost. A new x Yacht is more than double a Hanse, wish I could afford one. They have a steel grid instead of fibreglass. The only problem is, if the steel grid bends, you are in big problems. Great boats though and very fast. This year we raced my friends x443. Cheers
Very interesting and informative. I only avoid bolt on keels because they seem to always have big vulnerable spade rudders, but there is so much more to this.
Thanks, appreciated. Yup, there are so many arguments for and against. I don't like the vulnerability of the rudder, but the way it's designed is superb, when sailing the feel is second to none. We fell in love with it the second we sailed the 388 for the first time
@@SailingAurora Our sailing area is notorious for groundings. We had an encapsulated keel and skeg hung rudder which meant when the inevitable happened I was never too worried. Now we have two rudders and centre board so if we ground it just lifts up. I'm not a steering fan and use autopilot a lot. But friends that helm might not like the twin rudder set-up with its mushy feel on some points of sail.
@@philgray1023 Totally agree and good plan
You are very good at narrating, keeping it interesting and informative. Well done!
On the subject matter, I am surprised to see that the problem with a delaminating grid structure, is more common than i thought..
Hi there. Thank so much for the kind words. Hopefully this will be the one and only for Aurora. Only good thing about the situation is that she will be stronger when she comes out of the workshop, AND we learned a lot about her on the way. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Hi Chris, another great episode. I like your recaps a great deal, very professional. Not much to say this time. Glassing in the repair areas is proper. You make a distinction between a production boat (bonded grid) and a "custom" boat (glassed grid). You will mislead folks that don't have a good understanding of boat building. The vast majority of sailboats are production boats, meaning a company is making the same hull and deck over and over, from a mold. A true custom boat is when you go to a naval architect and tell them you have an idea for a sailboat and you want them to design it. Then you take the drawing from the architect to a boat yard and say here, build me this boat. There is a middle, or semi-custom boat. Make no mistake it is a production boat but the customer has a great deal of input on interior design and layout, hardware selection and so fourth. With a semi-custom, or production boat the customer is never given a choice of bonded or glassed grid.
Moody and Hanse are under the same umbrella that is why you will see some Moody design and innovations in the Hanse. Moody is a production boat, it is a semi-custom. Hanse bonds their grid, Moody has a glassed in grid. Amel production boat without much input from the customer, glassed grid. Sirus a small german maker of of some fantastic sailboats. They only have 3 boats in there offering 31, 35, and 40 foot. There boats are semi-custom, the customer has a great deal of input. All their boats have a glassed in grid. Bonded grids are safe, strong, and work well except when they don't. Would I exclude a boat maker from my list of what new/used boat I am going to buy based only on how the grid is secured. Yes, I would, I guess I am a bit OCD about that.
OCD and bilge pumps. I hear and understand you mate. For what it is worth. Get the best and highest capacity pump that will fit in your bilge. Matter of fact, get two.
The bilge pump thru-hulls being above the water line is not as critical of material used, as those below the water line. Having a seperate thru-hull for each of your 2 or more main bilge pumps is the way to go.
You are doing very well, I like to watch as your knowledge base increases. Here ya go use a sealant when you want protect from water intrusion. Ues an adhesive when you want to attach something to something. On the keel, it is 3M 5200 adhesive. There is no other choice that compares. Those guys at 3M have an "unofficial" slogan about 5200, it goes like this. "What 5200 puts together, no one but God takes apart"
Be happy, be safe.
Thanks for the good insight Larry, sounds like you have got a hell of an experience. Being at Plastskador has really taught be a lot about bonded and glassed grids and I would have liked to have know it before looking around to buy a boat.
I like your attention to detail.
Thank you
Phantastic Video and information.
Your welcome
Thanks for the in depth! Die nut is the term in Oz. For cleaning a damaged thread. I plan to build a cat yet all boat repairs are educational.
Thanks Jason, much appreciated
The quality of the bilge hose is as important as the pump. I changed out my old (corrugated) hose for a smooth bore (on both electric and manual pumps) and either can now empty the bilge in a fraction of the time that it used to require (for the same size pump). There is a world of difference between lamina flow and turbulent flow.
Great comment, thanks for the tip. All of our pipes are smooth and steel reenforced. Just have to buy the bilge one soon, will keel this in mind, thanks
As Chris says, most modern boats have been built this way for a number of years. HR use a similar grid frame that is bonded (whether it's over laminated I'm not sure, in some pictures it doesn't look like it is). You have to remember the energy involved in 12 tons of boat travelling at (let's say) 6 knots meeting a solid object like a rock. If you think of a car analogy and you have an accident, the chasis is always checked afterwards, this is the boats "chasis". This is why the ORC are now stipulating hull condition checks before offshore races, especially after cheeki raffiki and it's various repairs. Modern boats / keel designs are fine for all the conditions they will encounter at sea, but not designed for significant contact with the land or immovable objects. The important thing after damage is the integrity of the repair and this job looks to be very thorough. Get those wires and some spare mousing lines in whilst you can Chris ;-)
You guys are wrong about Hallberg Rassy they do not rely on the grid to support the keel, their hull forms a deep flange at least 200mm
often deeper the keel is then bolted to this, i have seen a HR 64 after hitting a rock at 8 knots the keel and joint was still good
the was damage was along the hull as it was well heeled over when the collision happened and the hull scraped along an adjacent rock
but not bad enough for water to penetrate. As someone else has said buy a secondhand HR any day over one of the mass production new builds , If you are serious about Sailing offshore..... Here is their latest 40 footer see the stubby Flange.......
www.hallberg-rassy.com/fileadmin/user_upload/HR40Cinteriorsideview.jpg
@@Adrian-sail www.hallberg-rassy.com/resources/how-a-hull-is-built/. I'll just leave that there, I guess some of the Rassy's are built with a grid. Maybe different with each model
You guys are insisting that keel repairs are a part of life, when you perhaps should insist that design changes are in order. A bolted keel on a dropped-in frame is a great way to have a boat that's almost never at sea. Groundings happen every single day of the year.
@@steampunk888 “a bolted keel on a dropped in frame”……you mean like pretty much every modern production boat built over the last decades…literally thousands of them sailing all over the world and crossing oceans.
I just found your channel. If you've never seen his channel, Mads (Sail Life) has an amazing channel and he's just about completed a near complete rebuild of a Warrior 38.
Hi and welcome to the channel! Thanks for the tip, we follow Mads as well, he is doing an amazing job. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
My partner and I have been watching every episode as we have a 418 on order. I can’t tell you how excited we are about picking her up from Greifswald later this year!
It was shocking to see the damage done to Aurora and the wait to get her fixed must have seemed interminable for you!
The repair looks to be very thorough and the yard have done a great job thus far.
I’ve been wondering how those cutout sections will be reinstated, but ensuring the grid is a strong as it once was. I guess I’ll just have to be patient to find out, but am looking forward to following the numerous stages of the repair. With the grid glass bonded to the hull, Aurora is going to be extra robust!
It’s also nice to get sight of the anatomy of Aurora, so we have an understanding of the hidden bits of our 418, when we need to take things apart.
I don’t agree that production boats are poorly put together - the build quality looks as solid as the rest of what we saw when aboard two other examples. The damage to your boat looked bad, but sailing 12 tonnes of yacht at 6 plus knots into a rock will do serious damage! I wonder whether you can get the track data off the plotter as there should be specific speed and direction information for the collision. You’ll need some sort of .gpx file reader software.
Just one question: I notice that you have a 3 bladed Flexofold prop. What engine size do you have fitted to Aurora?
Best of luck Chris and look forward to seeing the boat out on the water again! 👍
Good luck with the new boat. My 458 has just come out of the factory and is being inspected today! I based my 385 at Greifswald for three seasons so feel free to PM me if you want any advice about the commissioning process there.
Hi Peter. So exciting for you! Hope you will have a great sail to your home on your new Hanse 418, it is such a special feeling leaving in your brand new boat!
Yes, the wait felt endless, but now we can see an end on it all, and just looking forward to the new season. All the best, Chris & Tanja
I totally agree on the comments on how the stringer is bonded to the hull, but the real problem is about the quality of the adhesive used. Use a polyester/vinyl-ester bonding paste
Bilge pumps. You absolutely need an upgrade here. That pump is a clearing pump only, i.e. it is designed to get very close to the bottom of the boat to clear the last few gallons. If you are heading offshore my advice is to fit 2 fully independent pumps with separate outlets (T 2 hoses together at least halves the pump output). Arrange the switches so that one comes on a couple of inches higher than the other. The idea is that the first one is the 'working pump' and the second one kicks in when the first one fails, clogs or is overwhelmed. Because the second pump normally stays dry and unused it is more likely to work when you really need it. Also rig a loud alarm to the second pump, if it goes off you know you have an emergency. A good idea, but not essential, is to use the same model for both pumps, that way you only need one spare. When sizing the pumps look at how much water can come in if a sea-cock, rudder seal of prop shaft seal blows. Your pumps need to clear water fast enough in that event for you to make a repair. Personally I would not consider anything less than 2000gal/hour (for each, not total) as a bilge pump on any boat that is going offshore. I have always fitted 4000g/hr and under test these will keep the sump clears if you open a 1.5" sea cock but they will be working close to capacity to do it.
Hi Roland, thanks for the tips. In the later videos you can see that I installed exactly that, I had to run another pipe, which was abit of a pain but got in done. Cheers
The bonding, if done with quality materials, is very good practise, the reason that Hanse is in business is because they choose the best, most economical way to build. This collision is about as bad as it can get without holing the hull. I can so empathise with feeling confidence in the tradespeople. Looking forward to seeing this completed.
Well said
Thanks Phillip, as always appreciated. I agree completely. I touch on this a little in the video released today. Cheers, Chris
This is months of hard work to repair. Very comprehensive which it needs to be. Thanks for sharing. The bonding is not much better than filler. It's glass without the reinforcing glass. By the way epoxy will bond onto polyester. But polyester won't bond onto epoxy. I also incorporate carbon fibre into high stress repairs and have found that by the time I have finished the repairs are massively strong.
Great video!
Thank you Patrik:-) Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Hope the repair turns out well. I'm sure it will be beautiful again by the end of this process
Thanks very much. I'm sure she will be great
Put a 30mm condut across in the grid then you will have space for wiring later
Thanks, exactly the plan:-) Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Same story like Expedition Evans. Hmmm, interesting.
Saillife had to glass his grid too
@@brianluck84 Yeah but his was a totally different reason. He got water into his core so he doubled up the glass on the grid to not have to remove the core and redo it.
@@brianluck84 Good old Mads, love the channel
@@RobbZinn Very true
Thank you kindly, awesome explanation!
Thanks, more than welcome
The more I see this grid issue in these the more I'm glad I'm rebuilding a older Newport.
Can't blame you, good luck with the rebuild
@@SailingAurora Thanks you too. I'm going to end up pulling my floor up to check mine too, but going to make it accessable incase I have a grounding issue as well.
You mentioned that the keel of your Hanse 40' was bolted through just 10mm of hull fiberglass. It is insightful to contrast current boatbuilding practice against 1980's boatbuilding practice.
My 1985 Pearson 36-2 has a 10mm thick structural grid of longitudinal stringers and lateral ribs. The grid extends up above the heeled waterline, and the grid appears to be bonded to the 10mm thick hull with 5200. The strength of the grid is such that the shroud chain-plates are bolted to the grid where its top edge is heavily glassed to the hull. The grid also extends down into the hull's keel stub & bilge. Consequently, the external lead keel is bolted through both structures comprising at least 20mm of fiberglass.
Hi Ash, since making this video I have notices that the hull varies in thickness, it's only parts that do not need to be that strong are fairly thin to keep the weight down... which is understandable. Around the keel the thickness from factory is significantly thicker that 10mm and is very strong.
It's true, they did make them like Tanks back in the day
Great video. Thank you.
Thank you so much, glad you liked it. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Very interesting getting into the various build formulas, I own a a custom built low production power yacht 650k for 38' and even though it was a low production there are still items that suprise you. I like that you have pointed out that in general its also true car production up and down a manufacturer line many similar parts. My beef is that many of these parts are lower quality made in china which I understand but not getting the mark up on crap parts.
Bilge pumps - I obsesse as well no water but interestingly I have 6 bilge pumps.
6 bilge pumps, wow! That's awesome, now I can justify the cost more easily to myself. Thanks for sharing
@@SailingAurora I use a dry bilge system from seaflo price varies 180-300 gets everything out - everything
VERY instructive. Sincere thanks :)
Hi Mike. Thank you so much, glad that you liked it. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
The fishing boat had a y valve in the bilge,it could suck salt water through a throughhull
for washdown or y valve to bilges for sinking,kept us running for hours till we ran the boat aground under the lift at the hall out yard….
Sounds like a good solution, I thnk when/if we leave for an ocean crossing I would like some connection to the engine water pump also
you are passing through what @Expedition Evans passed, they got a damaged boat and there are tons of videos of all their work to re-laminate a grounded Beneteau.. good learning channel of how the boat is built
Hi Miguel, yes we have been following their channel closely and it's really interesting. I wish I could be down at the yard all of the time to really share it like they did but I have to run another job as well. Hope you are enjoying both channels. Cheers, Chris
Great video, interesting to see the work being carried out. That is some bilge pump you are looking at installing, 258l/min - just looked at the spec for mine, a Johnson pump, a miserable 16l/min, I think a bucket might be quicker.
Hi Barry. Thank you. Not a great situation, but we are making the most of it, by learning a lot about our boat and from people at the workshop along the way. And yes that is some bilge pump. Chris just picked it up today and decided to test it in the kitchen - not the best idea he have had:-) It can really move some water that pump. Think it will be a great addition to the existing bilge pump. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
@@SailingAurora Ha. I can imagine the kitchen. I bought a 4000GPH a couple of weeks ago as a backup but am planning to use 2” layflat hose and not install it permanently
You sound just like Korg, great vid
Thanks:-) Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Thank you! Very helpful.
Welcome
I’m coming from the carbon fibre world where when you bond two pieces of carbon fibre together using Methyl Methacrylate you’re not able to break that seam before you actually crack the cf laminate first. I’m curious to understand what is the bonding material used in boats like Hanse? Methyl Methacrylate should bond equally as well to glass fibre.
I believe you got the it backwards regarding polyester being stiffer, that is not the case. Tensile strength in epoxy is higher than polyester.
Great video. Interesting to see the work carried out by these guys.
Hi there, thanks for the comment. I'm not sure what was originally used by Hanse. I have been doing quite a bit of research on Epoxy and Polyester over the last couple of weeks. These videos have caused quite a stir. As you probably know, tensile strength is the breaking point of a material, I beleive Epoxy excels in this partly because of it's flexibility or deflection. Wheras stiffness is the amount of deflection of the material. Polyester is less flexible. Thanks for the compliment, the repairs are going well so far. BR Chris
Well made video. This is a major repair that most boat owners hope not to be faced with. You've turned it into something positive. Could you share your general budget and time needed to get this done?
Hi Jeff. Thank you! Yes, and we could never have imagined that we would have to go through this with a bout not even 2 years old:-( But we are trying to make the best of the situation. Yes it is a major repair, it's estimated at 400 work hours, so 10 weeks of work, and at a final cost of €40,000. Stay safe, Chris & Tanja
For a steel boat sailor, very interesting to see! Through hull fittings: With collars around 'plastic' valves, like supplied by several, valves are accepted by for instance USCG. Bronze will last for ever in sea water. I myself removed valves/seacocks from sv Venus, at that time 110 year old original Collin Archer. Material was by spec. 'Admirality Bronze', that in fact is a sw resistant brass. Same material in keel bolts on this vessel. No corrosion, no damage, appart from wear. The boat was built in Larvik, commisioned to Bergen. Sea water all her life. Now in Oslo, Maritime Museum. Still sailing.
They are not Plastic www.trudesign.nz/marine/certifications/1-seacocks-and-through-hull-fittings
@@SVImpavidus I know, that's why I used 'plastic' with '' :-) Just to mark that it is not metal or steel.
Thanks for the comment, interesting stuff. I'm still thinking it over abit
Keel bolts tend to be cast in lead, and drilled/taped in iron.
Glad you're doing it right!
Thanks, she feels really strong nowadays
Glad to see things going well. Great explanations. You and RAN2 really make sailing in the Swedish archipelago really attractive.
HI Keith. Thank you, yes there is light at the end of the tunnel. It is in deed a very beautiful place to sale. Stay safe, Chris & Tanja
Thanks Sailing Aurora. You mentioned brass versus plastic seacocks. Like you said plastic seacocks have the potential of shattering under an impact load. The reason for this is some seacocks are made of cheap plastic with a poor fracture toughness. The cure is to force the seacock manufactures to build out of more expensive plastics with acceptable fracture toughness. Fracture toughness is a materials resistance to cracking under impact load.
I am sure there must be manufactures who build seacock with very good plastic parts. Any suggestions from the other readers. Good luck with the rebuild.
Thanks for the comment, we are going to buy True Design composite ones now, they should be good. Cheers, Chris
Some plastics are stronger than metal
Great video,keep it up!🛳
Thanks! Will do!
Thru-Hull fittings and taps, the general rule that most of us follow in tropical waters is to change them every 7 to 10 years whether Bronze or Plastic. the fitting materials usually outlast the ball valve area of the tap. The ball and internal face usually fail and seize (thru poor maintenance) before serious corrosion problems. Some English made valves are made for pull-apart maintenance, expensive but worth a look, for a much longer service life than 10 years. I only have 2 thru-hulls, one for in and one for out, I run a manifold system on my custom built boat.
Hi Stuart, thanks for the advice, really appreciate it and learning everyday. Right now I am looking at TrueDesign stuff, it looks pretty good. Not sure how long term testing they are though. CHeers
This is the trade off for fibreglass boats In the end isn’t it? They’re much cheaper and lighter but less solid if something does go wrong...
Enjoying watching the work done anyway as every boat material has merits and they’re all interesting.
Hi Alistair. Glad you enjoyed the video. And yes there are always trade off's:-) Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Wow this is unbelievable, how much work this takes. How much is all of this going to cost??? Great drone shots and content. Keep up the good work.
Thank you Jason. Yes it's really extensive work. The estimated cost is € 40k. Best, Chris & Tanja
Proper keel bolts have the shape of a traditional umbrella handle, or the letter J. You cannot just unscrew them out from the keel.
You experienced the reason I will only own a full keel boat. I know of dozens of fin keels boats that have suffered this same damage. 9 out of 10 never make it back to the water. Those boats include models of every manufacture you mentioned at the beginning of your video.
I can't blame you if you want a full keeled boat, they are very robust. Fin keel boats are definitely prone to this damage, up here in Scandinavia as we have a lot of rocks, it's a common occurrence to run aground and there are a lot of companies doing this kind of repair. I guess the insurance companies assess if it's a write off or not before paying for the repairs.
My attitude is, fin keels and spade rudders are unseaworthy, period.
@@Garryck-1 Yes, I agree.
It's not fin keels that is the issue but bolted on keels. A fully encapsulated fin keel is as strong as a full keel, with none of the disadvantages. Old 70's and 80's boats with fully encapsulated fin keels have been grounded many times with none of these issues.
@@stephenburnage7687 - Fair point. But those are not (and haven't been for a long time) the kind of keels being churned out in huge numbers by manufacturers, and sold to an unsuspecting public, are they?
I have watched way to many videos of problems with production boats, I have been in the market for a 45'-65' sailing catamaran and I decided on an aluminum hull boat and I am building it myself.
Sounds like an awesome project. I would love to learn Aluminium contruction and welding for sure, unfortunately only so much time in the day though :) Good luck on the project
@@SailingAurora I own a metal fabrication business so it's building aluminum structures is within the realm of what I do. I am going to either buy off the shelf plans for a boat or work with a naval architect to design my own from scratch.
Brass has to be protected against galvanic corrosion. Plastic turns brittle.
Thanks Stephen, the new ones I put in are composite from Trudesign. Highly recommended
Awesome video. Tnx!
Thanks very much :)
Expedition Evans bought a grounded boat and repaired it themselves. Same issues.
And they consulted pros and used epoxy ,not cheap polyester
Hi Bill. Yes, we are also following Expedition Evans. They have done a great job!. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
@@Mechone11 There are different applications for Epoxy and Polyester, if applied correctly Polyester is more than adequate, I will cover this in the next video and explain a little of why epoxy was not used. Plastskador has been around for 30 years and is well known all over the Nordics for quality repairs, they also do a lot of the work for the major insurance providers, I've done my research and they know what they are doing.
@@SailingAurora Mine was done by a custom yacht builder of 50 years from Holland and done in Canada. Epoxy is stronger to an already cured structure . Boats are not made out of epoxy only due to costs. Vinylester is a compromise in strength and is better resistance to water and cheaper than epoxy.I'm sure your boat and most production boats are vinylester I'm sure it will be fine and they know what they are doing ,however then why the adhesion tests? . There are many tests on youtube boatworks today for example. I had 3 well known boat repair yards quote on my boat and they all said epoxy, just saying ,done by insurance with a surveyor hired by them
@@Mechone11 Sounds like you had some good boat builders too. The adhesion tests were for a few reasons.. 1. Because why not before you commit to the whole hull 2. To double check there are no unwanted chemicals anywhere such as silicon, diesel etc. this is really bad.... and 3. Testing the sanding depth for the adhesion. Probably unnecessary but doesn't take long to have a double check before the commitment.
I wouldn't buy a production boat. Ever. I really do struggle with bolt on keels. I have grounded a few times and my well built solid keel took it in its stride. Grounding is a fact of life on a sail boat and I just can not get my head around compromising the integrity of the boats structure. I love the look and finish of these boats but think this is a flaw that needs be addressed.
Hi Steven, you have some fair points and I agree somewhat. Nowadays people are looking for performance also and full keels or longer keels are just a little slower. I guess the solution is to never run aground but we both know that is unlikely. A company called Linjett in Sweden has a good solution with a swinging keel in the event of ground, but I sense problems there also. BR Chris
That’s o k if you can afford hand built
A laminated fin keel with internal lead ballast would be nice.
Your instincts about bolted keels are quite correct. It will probably recede as a technology, and its main purpose was only to make sailboats available at a lower price point. It has been, overall, a debacle.
Boat maintenance and repair is expensive. I doubt I'd buy a small cruiser but if I did I'd favour a Victoria 30 with full Keel and encapsulated ballast. At least you know its not going to fall off and the Hull design is seakindly.
I remember the story of Drum in the Fastnet which suffered Keel failure and flipped over. Beneteau and Dufour are the same with a bolt on fin waiting to snap or fall off.
The strength of fiberglass is long continuous strands of glass fibers laminated before the chemical reaction has cured.A repair patch stick on is just that a patch.When your hull flexed and popped the glued in grid structure the entire hull flexed and broke the fibers.Marelon fore spar thru hulls are inert and lightning proof along with non corrosive. Amel uses a sea chest for that reason as does feadship
Thanks for the explanation, I really like the sea chest idea with one thru hull to serve many, it's a good idea. Chris
very nice and have a hole there, I would actually have one on each side so it will be aerated
Good idea, and there will be 2 holes there, but we need to be careful not to do too many as it needs to be the strongest place on the boat pretty much. Chris
I can relate. When cars went from a frame to a unibody construction they faced similar problems.
Monocoque construction wasn't it, where they bolt the subframes to a tin box. My wife's car was written off by what literally looked like a minor panel damage.
I've heard of a tee valve being added to the engine cooling system to suck in bilge water in an emergency to augment the bilge pump.
Personally, I don't think that would add much. Better to add another bilge pump for more throughput AND redundancy.
I think Sailing Nahoa did a test on this also. The throughput wasn't that great. Would be good as an extra though I guess
Sailing Parley is a good video to watch ! Repaing poor bulkheads caused by cheap production fabrication !
Yup, Colin and the crew did an awesome job on that boat, really enjoy watching the channel
Too bad about the boat. I'm in the same predicament on my own. My boat has had a really hard gronding a loong time ago. The problem is that the repair is delaminating.... descoverd this when i started to fix my osmosis problem... so no im considering buying a different boat. It's is an old boat... but im gonna follow your videos with great interest. Best of luck . Regards Jarle
Thanks Jarle, well that really sucks about your boat. When I am exploring at Plastskador and talking with the guys they have shown me a little of repairs that have gone wrong. Not a fun thing. I hope it works out for you. Cheers, Chris
Lady k had a plastic speed sensor through hull blow out the center threaded section in choppy water, in the bow, just from hitting waves, nearly sunk the boat.
Good to know, I will have to go and find the video. Pretty confident in the one we have instaled though
@@SailingAurora ua-cam.com/video/XkAsfunh7HM/v-deo.html
you do not need a seacock for the big (or any) bilge pump, because the through hull has to be way up above the water line. Of course no T into the existing bilge pump line. Big hose, 1.5" and no check valve.
That's exactly what I did, thanks for the advice though
If the bond has broken between the hull and grid flange, you’ll have to cut the flange off and put in a fillets then lap multiple layers of epoxy glass across the two. Lapping glass on top of the flange and onto the hull won’t have enough strength to keep the grid from peeling and lifting away the the hull.
Hi Karl, that's exactly what's been done, I think you will see more in the next video this week
@@SailingAurora
Looks like you’re on the right track. There’s no easy way, only the right way. Be very careful with dust, fumes and contact poisoning. In high concentrations even the right respirator with ventilation can get overwhelmed. Then it’s supplied air time. MEK, xylene, toluene and acetone can mess you up for the rest of your shorter life.
@@SkypowerwithKarl Good advice :)
You can put epoxy on polyester but not the other way around. You can keep putting layers on epoxy as long as it’s very tacky, but once it’s set it must be sanded and quick wiped with MEK before more epoxy glass can be added. Oils/waxes migrate to the surface and must be addressed before continuing to ensure a strong bond.
Thanks for clarifying that one, after some research I came across this. Slight correction on my part there, Cheers
@@SailingAurora
No problem. I just hate to have others learn as hard as I have. Lol
Maybe someone mentioned this in another post, but, have you had the engine brackets holding the motor in place checked? They usually take quite the damage when running aground, just food for thought.
It's one of the fist things the repair guys mentioned. They went through the entire boat looking for damage and the engine mounts were checked, they are fine. Thanks for the tip :)
Have you watched 'Expedition Evans' where they are re-glassing the grid back after a grounding ?
Hi Andrew. Yes we are following Expedition Evans. They have done an amazing job, and really interesting to follow and compare to the repair Aurora is now going through. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
You can use a t connector for a pump out but it must have a check value, and one that will not clog. Some pumps have check values built in?
Hi Michael. Thank you for your tip, will definitely look into that. All the best, Chris & Tanja
ahoy ⚓️
very well documented! I have one more question: is the damage insured? And what does the repair cost? thanks for replying.
Lg. Stefan from Switzerland 🇨🇭
Hi there. Thank you! Yes the damage is insured, thank g.. for that. The repair will cost €40,000 incl. VAT of 25%. Stay safe, Chris & Tanja
Only February, and we have a strong contender right out the gate for the best sailboat UA-cam video of 2021.
(It's a mark in your favor that you didn't have a thumbnail of a 20-something in a bikini.)
Cheers, Eric... I'm not sure I am that good but trying my best to deliver some good content to on UA-cam. The only reason there were no bikini's was because there were none around :) I will try harder next time. Jokes aside, it does get to me sometimes when all you see is click bait on UA-cam. All the best, Chris
thank you dude
Swing keel problem solved !! couch captain 👍😁
Would love one, a little out of my budget though :)
Would you be able to provide the grounding details? (Speed at time of grounding, what was hit, weather, etc). It appears this was a significant event. If this is covered in another video I look for it. Thank you!
The weather conditions were fine, I have the track but I need to find out how I extract the data from the Zeus3 chart plotter for speed. For sure it was a rock they hit, you can see the track on Ep36. No worries, I will do some investigation tonight, I would love to find out also, BR Chris
If you use Bronze (Copper and Tin) they will be the best choice, but expensine. Brass (Copper and Zinc) even when it says corrosion resistant can suffer from de-zincification, which leaves mainly copper, which work hardens and shears. Sam with Brass props
Thanks :) Right now we are looking at True Design composites though. They look good.
@@SailingAurora As long as you are sure you will never be able to stand on them
@@saltybuster946 interesting... they do claim to handle a lot of weight. Research continues....
@@SailingAurora I've seen too many sheered off. Like I say, fine if you can be sure there is no chance of standing on them. I replaced all my skin fittings and sea cocks with tried and tested brass, I sleep well at night ;)
@@saltybuster946 Cheers, sounds like sound advice
Its a good time to put a proper bilge in the top of the keel for a bilge pump as with most of these newer hulls they dont build ina sump .
Hi Bill. Yes, we thought so too. We have bought the new bilge pump, so it can be fitted while she is in the workshop. Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Install multiple bilge pumps and they can exit into the cockpit. No more holes in hull.
Not a bad idea. That way you get to see that you have a problem.
Could be an idiea, would prefer something more permanent though
After digesting 20% of the comments my intention to build my own cat remains just as sure as before. Great inspiration!
Hi Jason, that's great. I hope you are well on the way to building it
Whale bilge pumps are also nice
Hi Jon. Thank you for the tip. Already bought the other pump. But maybe a Whale next time, got a tip on having three of them... Cheers, Chris & Tanja
Interesting as always. Prior to getting my first Hanse I sailed for a week on a 470 which I recall having a steel grid but I have no idea how this was bonded to the hull. I'm quite alarmed at the extent of the damage to Aurora but wonder if having a twisted steel frame, or even one that was significantly detached from the hull would be worse. In 20+ years of sailing I'll confess to several "groundings" but mostly in tidal areas and in soft mud. In fact getting to my winter yard in Chichester harbour was always a nervous moment as it was only possible to get to there with my 2m keel at the top of a spring tide. Last spring, after my planned launch was cancelled by covid, I was "neaped" for another month.
Some great tips here. I agree that the standard bilge pump could do with being bigger. I looked at the spec for the Johnson and noticed that even this pumps quite different volumes when 1m of head is factored in rather than a straight run. Aristides commented that this might not fit under the floorboards, but I believe that the deepest part of the hull might well be under the galley sink where there would be room under the pull-out drawer. Both the standard bilge pumps discharge at the stern with outlets above the waterline. It is normally easier to run a pipe to the stern through the engine compartment than taking it to the side .
Like Aristides, I am planning to get the Caribbean at some point, however it took me three years to get out of the Baltic, and I haven't even got to the Med yet, so who knows when!
Hi Stuart, thanks for the comment, this damage has brought up some very interesting conversations indeed. When we were cruising around Poole Harbour we used to ground the boat all of the time, as you say the advantage was it was sand or mud to hit so we didn't really care.
Thanks for the advice on the bilge pump, I need to have a proper think and look around at some point in the near future and make a decision.
Good luck with getting to the Caribbean, I am jealous, one day soon hopefully for us. All the best, cheers, Chris