2:26 The best use of the "bad guy that keeps letting the good guys go because _reasons"_ is Koragg the Wolf Knight from Power Rangers Mystic Force. He was an evil, yet honor-bound knight (veeeeery Aurthian legend) who would keep beating the good guys and have them on the ropes and then just _leave_ because it would be dishonorable to stomp them out when they're so weak and beneath him. Like if a little kid started smacking his leg with a wooden stick and called it a sword, he'd shove him into the mud and break his stick, maybe smack him with it for good measure, but he wouldn't _snap the kid's neck._ That's just _beneath_ him. It happened SO OFTEN it became a _PLOT POINT_ where the other badguys *_put him on TRIAL for not being evil enough_* and accused him of intentionally subverting their Evil Master's goals because he never _"finish the job."_ It was awesome that they actually addressed and utilized the trope, and added onto it to build up the reveal that Koragg was secretly the possessed form of the *_hero named Leanbow, long thought dead, who's been fighting to take back control of this body for YEARS,_* and subtitling influencing the evil spirit 'Koragg' to lean into his honor code to save his _family_ from being killed by him. It was AWESOME.
See, I disagree with that theory. I think it's perfectly possible to write a character smarter than yourself, because you as a writer have days to come up with solutions that the characters have seconds to resolve. But intelligence represents work and dilligence, effort that is clearly not on display.
@rafezap not to mention to follow up with Zahn and talk about potential new ideas. After Rebels, Dave simply cast Zahn to the side and unfortunately dumb down Thrawn's intelligence.
Thrawn's plan was to wait for the Rebels to draw all their available allies together to liberate Lothal, plus locate their base, and catch them all at the point of major mustering. Then trap and eliminate them - as many as possible. So it was about waiting for the largest amount of fish in the net. Whilst also being ordered to take at least some prisoners (per Tarkin) That doesn't always come off so well, along the way, but the method is fairly solid. What it is though - is cold blooded. Lots of expendable forces along the way, justified arguably by the vast Imperial resources and war machine (plus Thrawn is ultimately working towards his own people's benefit, rather than the Empire's, externally, per books) In Ahsoka it was about moving the... whatever it was, mcguffins, off of Peridea, to his ship, in time to escape with them. Whilst not necessarily being honest with Morrigan, about this. But yeah, this does feel fairly toned down to his original modus operandi. And yes, somewhat contrived.@@RafesEpicStuff
@@RafesEpicStuff Known your own limits and working on some way to surpass it, could be considered a high level of intelligence too. What is not the case of the hack cowboy anyway...
Disney wars thrawn has the same issue as other disney wars bad guys(not counting Andor) The main characters have so little brain power that if you distract them, they forget to breath In order for the good guys to survive they need to have plot armor thicker than reality or the bad guys have to act dumber than a headless chicken
@@LordRevan-vi2op and that's what the Imperials in Lucas's Star Wars (barring Tarkin and perhaps Admiral Motti) were: antagonists. By and large they were honourable, competent men who were opposed to the Rebel Alliance because they genuinely believed in the Empire, not because they were inherently malicious people. Of course, "Andor" being a cartoon masquerading as "mature" storytelling doesn't follow up on that, so instead of the cool, focused professionalism of a Piett or a Veers we get sad-sack cereal-eating Syril or some fat doofus chortling about oppressing the natives.
@@CanadianPale Syril isn't an Imperial, though. He was apart of the Corporate Authority and functioned as what would the equivalent of what would be Amazon's private army.
I've been called a hater for pointing out how stupid Thrawn's decisions were in the Ashoka show. I didnt watch Rebels so I decided to lay off him and give it a break. Then I saw this and had a little chuckle. How can he be an intelligent villian if he just lets the hero's win and gets bodied when he doesn't mean to let them win? How can you take him seriously? Thank you for helping me realize I'm not insane...
he is a tiny bit better in rebels... BUUUUT not by much. want to ruin ashoka even more for yourself? ask this question.... why didnt thrawn pre load all of the nightsisters cargo BEFORE morrigan arrives? if thrawn did, then the show would be over and thrawn wins! lol... the entire show is constantly having to be retarded because otherwise the show would have ended in episode 1 if the assassin droids sent after sabine used a sniper rifle to kill her, take the orb then leave before ahsoka arrives to go get thrawn... OR think about this, why does thrawn even WANT to leave this new galaxy? why doesnt thrawn rbing the imperial remnant over to this new galaxy at a later date? thrawn is hyper intelligent and a genius... i would have lured the ghost crew to this new galaxy to stop my return and to save ezra, but secretly i want them to save ezra and think i am trapped in this new galaxy forever but in reality i needed ezra gone so i can build my empire in this new galaxy... IMAGINE if thrawn brought the imperial remnant to this new galaxy? a new galaxy to strip mine for resources, barren worlds to set up cloning facilities and factories... you could use the nightsisters knowledge of their own galaxy and star maps to farm it for resources and build up a military to rival the new republic who will suspect the empire's remnant was defeated... if even just bring over the people and supplies i need then sacrifice the rest by leaking their base locations to the new republic so they wipe out the remnant i didnt take with me.... so the new republic thinks it won against the empire fully and after a few decades will let their guards down and allow us to infiltrate the government for info... then once we have a new and improved military empire set up in the new galaxy, we will invade seeing as theres only ONE WAY to get to this new galaxy, and thats to go to the stupid space whale graveyard world lol its such a easy place to set up a blockade fleet to annihilate any ships that try to come.
@@ninvusoogoar6098 man ahsoka really did disappoint me in many ways. One being they didn’t kill off Sabine but instead kept that insufferable character and did the most stupid thing possible and give her the ability to use the force
@@ninvusoogoar6098 Ngl, I'd say he's quite good in rebels. After he lets them go after he loses, it gets explained as a way to trim down all the possible planets which are the rebel base. They spend a long time building up to it where they barely win, and then it shows him getting closer to finding their base. Which is a great build up for when he actually does go to the base and decisively wins. The only few rebels that escape do so due to a sacrifice, a bad subordinate and a giant force.. thing. He isn't a genius who always wins, but it's definetly excusable and when he wins he does so majorly.
"Everybody likes to praise Dave Filoni as the savior for Star Wars, but for me he always seemed to be the type of writer that changed Star Wars into what he wants it to be, even at the cost of the writing." THANK you. This man speaks truth. Round of applause. Part of the reason The Mandalorian stopped working for me is because it felt like as Filoni took over more of the writing duties, it stopped being a cool space western about a merc dad, and started to be.. Yet Another Clone Wars Sequel. I initially loved the character of Ahsoka the same as everyone else, but after a decade and a half of tv shows, comic books, novels and cartoons where she's the focus or a major player her character feels all tapped out, but Filoni won't let her go and is determined to keep her in narrative focus just as much as, if not more so than, any of the Skywalkers. I'm not trying to hate but Star Wars feels like less and less of a sandbox for various authors, filmmakers and artists to build upon, and more and more Filoni making it an overlong extension of Clone Wars and Rebels.
100% agree on the point about Ahsoka. There was a moment when I actually liked her but realised she made less and less sense seeing as she's appeared in ZERO films in any trilogy and we're supposed to believe she was somehow important to Anakin and Luke because Filoni retconned her into the lore and pretends that Anakin always had this padawan that we know nothing about. She feels more and more like one of those fanfiction OCs and I'm starting to think Filoni didn't kill her off even if that was the most sensible thing to do because he likes that royalty money too much.
@@badman_iiixiiiYes. The fact she’s still alive and kicking feels improbable, if not impossible. Even as TCW aired I felt that narrative couldn’t have possibly ended with Ahsoka alive, that Anakin wouldn’t just “overlook” his own Padawan. I accepted the, kinda weak, season 6 answer that Ahsoka just walked away from the Jedi before the Battle of Coruscant… But there she was, in the thick of things during Order 66. Afterwards I accepted the Rebels answer that Ahsoka and Vader faced each other, with Ahsoka’s death being implied… But then Ezra uses time magic to rescue her. I guess the force is with her because she truly has some of the greatest plot armor of all time.
@@badman_iiixiii Unfortunately, Ahsoka was introduced by Lucas, and according to Wikipedia, Filoni was confused, saying "No, Anakin doesn't have a padawan, what do you mean?" Lucas killed the EU
I don't even like the new Clone Wars. Honestly, it cannot hold a candle to the original Tartakovsky cartoon miniseries. That guy knew how to respect the foundations of the series. All Filoni did was mess up the continuity and inner logic of the series beyond repair.
Also, Rebels and the concept of the new inquisitors forced into the backdrop of the original trilogy further pushes apart the prequel and the OT era. How in the hell imperial officers don't remember or don't care about the Force or the Jedi, when they've been contantly serving under their Dark Jedi counterparts for like decades, up until 5 years prior the New Hope? Honestly, it's all beyond repair for me at this point. Star Wars officially ended for me with the last Lucas vision, The Force Unleashed I. Everything since then is garbage, only consumed because there's no better Star Wars content anymore. Disney can rot with it's money.
The key thing about defeating thrawn in an authentic way, Thrawn isnt defeated by out thinking him. He is defeated because of the small actions the good guys take which lead to a snowball effect that Thrawn couldnt possibly have predicted. Any planned countermove would have been discovered by him and overcome. Thats why his last words are "it was so artfully done" when his bodyguard stabbed him, because in that moment he realized what must have happened and that the Noghri were working with leia behind his back.
I'd like to add something here: Dave Filoni's blatant disregard for the books. In George's canon, George and Dave were willing to overwrite the books and extended media because Lucas had established that it COULD and WOULD happen. When Disney started their new canon, they did so with the promise that unlike the old EU, the canon wouldn't be tiered. It would be more consistent than ever. Dav himself said so in the foreword for the appropriately titled "A New Dawn." Filoni did not stick to that promise for more than a year. In Tales of the Empire, we get what is possibly the most blatant example of Filoni retconning better writers. Zahn wrote a way for Pelleaon to become involved in his absolutely brilliant canon Thrawn trilogy. ("Thrawn" (2017), "Thrawn: Alliances" (2018), "Thrawn: Treason" (2019)) Filoni retcons that, as well as the Chimera's entire crew. It's just insulting at this point. Filoni also blatantly disregards Thrawn's Chiss roots and their importance. Zahn should be writing these shows
@@wb7585Those were acceptable because they were under Lucas’s canon, which did NOT promise that those stories would be followed to a tee. And the world between worlds is one of the worst things Filoni has ever done
@@officialmonarchmusic i can understand the top, but just man i've had many road trips listening to the audio books so RIP i mean still have some so good to go
@@wb7585Yeah, I need to check out the old Republic, which is my major blind spot. To be honest, I was never a fan of how the clones were depicted in the commando series. It’s a hot take of mine, but I actually really like the idea of the chips. It was established by the multimedia project that clones COULD disobey Order 66, and I think that’s ridiculous and basically insinuates that all of the other clones were perfectly willing to do what they did
@@officialmonarchmusic Yeah i can respect that. I grew up on battlefront 2. So to me i interrupt it to being conditioning to clones. Plus experience in military. I do enjoy both inhibitos and clones conditioning aspects of clone's betray. However, i will be die hard on how they had old republic for Darth Bane. (You can find it on youtube for audio book.) I will link the vids if you want
It's not about EU only, he made his own version of SW Universe and he doesn't care about original personalities of characters, he works with his own. Clone Wars already breaks the original lore, not everyone saw this, but as far it goes the more changes he makes.
To be fair, he's made his own version of Thrawn, hiding behind "supposed blessing" of original Thrawn books author, and is using this version of Thrawn as his excuse for "caring" about legends fans. It's called having his cake and eating it too...
one of my favorite scenes in the books is when Luke escapes using some torpedo trick, and you think Thrawn's going to Vader the gunner who fucked up when he starts scolding them. But then he forgives him because he wasn't trained properly for those scenarios and admits his fault, turning is ire on the gunner's commanding officer who tried to throw his subordinate under the bus.
It's the other way around. The gunner gets killed, not because he messed up, but because he tried to deflect the blame onto his CO who trained him. The CO takes responsibility and responds honestly, so Thrawn has the gunner killed for not taking ownership of his actions and trying to get his crewmate in trouble. In a later book, something similar happens, yet when the gunner explains what happened, Thrawn promotes him for being a quick and outside-the-box thinker
They really gave Thrawn the Hux treatment... Honestly I'd argue Hux actively did more than whatever the hell Thrawn did during Dave Filoni's writing (Not counting the bullshit spy arc because what the Hell was that)
The problem is and always will be trying to execute this in an era of kids' shows that have no teeth. Filoni-Thrawn is just the latest example in poorly executed Xanatos-es. Xatanosi? Xatani? Davids Xanatos? Xanatos worked as a bad guy in the original gargoyles show *partly* because they didn't literally kick him around _every episode_ and partly because he *lost* in the opening 5-part mini series and we were shown him a.) actually losing and b.) not being terribly set back by actually losing. Then, as the show progresses, Xanatos works as a villain because he's sort of constantly harming people either indirectly, emotionally, or opportunistically. He recruits one of our main characters' family members away from the good guys to work as his private security, then engineers a situation where that private security dude is put in a position to "accidentally" get mutated. Part of this is just to maintain leverage over the security guard (if Xanatos can find the cure, then Xanatos is the only one who can help him) and partly to wield leverage against one of the show's protagonists, who now has to grapple with her family being drawn into her personal vendetta against this billionaire villain. And that's just *one story arc.* It actually takes like three episodes to make that happen. And that's important - time. Villainous schemes take time to mature. It's what allows them to build in room for "error" (.e.g good guys winning). Introducing villainous plans with layers isn't hard, but you have to be willing to let your villains a.) punch up sometimes and b.) punch _down_ sometimes. Their goals have to exist and be obvious beyond the scope of our heroes. They shouldn't be out here stopping our heroes; our heroes need to be out there _stopping them_. Then the act of creating the plan which is ultimately thwarted is already impressive and can be made more so with handwave regressions.
It's the Kang problem where all of these villains are written as if they have the gravitas of hundreds of hours of content. Always talking big game about how many people they killed yet they can't defeat the incompetent main protagonists.
Thrawn, in Legends: a ludicrously intelligent commander who always tries to be at least two steps ahead of his opponent Thrawn, in Disney canon: a bumbling buffoon who struggles to do ANYTHING significant
Timothy Zahn wrote 6 new books to tie in with Disney Star Wars and they are excellent in portraying Thrawn. 3 are set during his time in the Empire and 3 leading up to his exile in rhe Chiss Ascendancy. Dave Filoni chose to disregard his ENTIRE character arc and any development Timothy Zahn put into the character. The Rebels/Ahsoka Thrawn is a completely different person.
I never read a single Thrawn book and even I can tell that this is not the character that people would have fallen in love with. Let's go over the tactical ineptitude, shall we? 1. Designing a kill box that can't kill 2. Calling off a successful attack on your enemy 3. Sending insufficient resources and manpower to engage an enemy 4. Engaging an enemy that poses no threat to you 5. Making another kill box than can't kill 6. Making ANOTHER Killbox that can't kill 7. No guards or impediments for enemies in your base And despite all of THAT!!! he somehow wins because the good guys are still worse...
Why the fuck does anyone actually fight for this guy, bro literally ensures the deaths of ships worth of men and endangers the whole mission of the empire for.... What？
Disney Thrawn is a mixed bag for me. On the one hand you have the lows of Filoni handling him. On the other, you have some incredible highs in the new books wirtten by Zhan.
The best part is, is that the original Thrawn trilogy isn't even the best of Thrawn! In a creative/writers perspective Its kind of amazing to see Thrawn's changes when you read all of Timothy Zahn's Thrawn books in order (including Outbound flight, the new canon trilogy and Ascendancy) It was as if Mr. Zahn was still fine turning the character as he was writing these books, and you slowly see Zahn shifting Thrawn into the kind of character he inevitably intended him to be. Especially by the time you get to Outbound Flight! THEN Zahn gets the chance to write it all again!? Leading to us getting that fine tuned and wonderfully developed Thrawn in the canon books today. Just- Chefs Kiss! Timothy Zahn! The canon trilogy books and Ascendancy trilogy are a more accurate and developed Thrawn. He. Is. AMAZING! If you like Thrawn, then I HIGHLY highly recommend the new trilogy, followed by the Ascendancy trilogy. Thrawn is a way more flushed out character in those. The downside is that it makes the absolute disservice Filoni did to Thrawn as a character, and Zahn as a writer THAT much worse...
YES! I'm glad someone else is saying this. Zahn made Thrawn, (and Captain Pelleaon, who became one of the most interesting and likable characters in the entire EU) a more interesting character in every installment until Outbound Flight and (briefly) Choices of One, where we get what I'd call the definitive version of Legends Thrawn. Canon Thrawn had that built into him from the moment Zahn began writing, and the canon Thrawn trilogy is great. I'll be honest, I was never a very big fan of the Ascendancy trilogy, it just lost me very quickly, but it still handled Thrawn's character well. Then we get Filoni's "Tales of the Empire" which retcons all of the Chimera's crew, along with how Thrawn met Pelleaon in the first place in canon. It's honestly insulting. Filoni clearly considers his peer's work beneath him
I was once brainwashed too. I thought Filoni was going to Star Wars and honor the Eu because I liked The Clone Wars and I liked the first two seasons of The Mandalorian. The moment I woke up was when I saw The Book of Boba Fett and The Bad Batch, two shows where nothing really happens. That's when I saw Filoni as a hack but I was willing to give him a chance until I saw this show and his portrayal of Thrawn.
1:53 my guy right around this time stamp your showing his biggest victory in the series, literally crushing a season long effort to build up the Rebel Alliance. This attack was so bad the alliance had to think “ya know maybe we aren’t all that ready for this right now” He let them go throughout season 2 cus he was using them to pinpoint where their headquarters was, successfully. And then after that the one time he got his hands on a rebel leader he fucking tortured her like what are we doing?
How does the New Republic even work? Why should the Chancellor hold a vote in the Senate to allow the general (!) to take a squadron if only one senator can approve this mission? Huyang throughout the series: gives logical and rational arguments for why Ahsoka's actions are idiotic. Ahsoka: no. Do as I say, I have plot armor and plot luck. Huyang: Okay. Minefield. Do you have any idea how many mines it takes to mine SPACE? And how long will it take? And why weren't any whales harmed by them? Naturally, flying straight through the wreckage, you won’t damage even the antenna on your boat... Sabin, you still haven’t told Ezra the situation, even though you don’t have time? What a stupid cow you are... How did Beilan and Shin negotiate with the red riders, who obviously do not know their language and who caught them over the corpses of their comrades? Naturally, Ahsoka and Sabine can connect mentally, despite the fact that Sabine is insensitive to the Force... and Ezra is sitting next to her, but Ahsoka does not feel him... Witches can not only sense Ahsoka, but also determine her position on the map with an accuracy of up to a meter? But they couldn't find Ezra for 10 years? Thrawn, if you don't care whether you defeat your enemies or not because you'll get off the planet, why don't you just shoot and bomb them from the air instead of sending a useless landing party? Actually, you don’t have many soldiers left, and you still have to fight the Republic... Ezra. You're a fucking Jedi. Take your fucking lightsaber and fight Shin! Sabin doesn't even use it! Ezra is so strong that he can forcefully stop Shin's blows, but Shin can knock him back and knock him out? The Ninja Turtles invented flying armored personnel carriers, but they shoot with fucking slingshots? By armored riders? How about just running them over? Ahsoka, why did you jump off to fight Baylan if your goal is to help Ezra and Ahsoka and he doesn’t threaten them? And your plan was to let Huyang burn you with flashes? Naturally, Ahsoka can simply drive into the frame through a crowd of stormtroopers, they can’t do anything at all... How about disarming and tying up Shin so you have a hostage and an extra lightsaber? No? In short, I've had enough. The series is shit, which will be licked because they showed us a hologram of Anakin and he said “Ventress.” Filoni is an arrogant hack, no better than Abrams or Johnson. Thanks everyone for reading.
Fans were the ones who caused all this to happen. They've been hating on Lucas incredibly hard, especially after the RLM reviews, it all went over to Disney, and people were praising that talentless idiot Abrams, begging these psychopaths at Disney to seek him out and put him in control of the Sequels. It's pathetic, the man can't write or direct for shit! Disney doesn't know Star Wars, don't love Star Wars, never cared about Star Wars: for them it's a money printing machine. Fans should have been more strict with them and not such sheepish consumer idiots, but sending all the wrong criticism and requests back at them not just turned Star Wars into a media crap below mediocre, but also changed the fanbase into a toxic mess.
Disney turning to Filoni is just their last pathetic attempt to try and calm the fanbase, as at least half of the fans fell for this talentless ahole and somehow see him as a legit replacement for Lucas. These people don't deserve the Star Wars legacy. They can't come up with anything worthy of the legend, all they can do is twist around and ruin legacy characters and stories.
5:44 That’s literally what I’ve been saying! He’s the only character with (some) common sense. Like, guys, what if we drew two lines to find the rebel base? DAVE FILONI WHYYYYYYYYYYY?!?!
5:49: Thank you! I've been complaining about this for forever, and have been frustrated when friends try to make the excuse of "He was just confirming his suspicions."
Thrawn was the imperial you found yourself almost cheering for. He is an alien, he shows care for his troops, he is intelligent and tactical. He is different to all other imperial leaders you see and it makes you think “maybe he is actually not that bad. Maybe he could do some good with his power” Sadly Thrawn has been dumbed down to make the dumber hero’s win all the time
I don't know how you define "care for his troops"....... In "heir to the empire" there is a moment where he executed a guy thanks for failing in his job as someone at a fire control station. In the first space engagement in the book he sacrificed some troops to analyze the enemy tactic and showed no remorse for the fighter pilot deaths nor did they help so more of the rest could survive. The justification was that they where just a tool for his plan and a a recourse that is used like the rest. It clearly shows that as long as you are useful he helps you to be more useful to him.
@@ichmich9324First things first, Zahn has refined the character since. The canon version of Thrawn is based on similar ideas, but not the same, as Heir to the Empire. Second, though it was harsh, Thrawn didn’t execute the tractor beam operator for failing. He executed him for not taking ownership for his own mistakes and trying to push the blame onto his superior. In killing him, Thrawn was attempting to discourage the Imperial culture of blaming and backstabbing in favor of unity and responsibility. In a very cold and violent way. Second, he sacrifices troops to save lives overall. He is a utilitarian. When he sacrifices those troops, he is doing so to protect his troops overall
Thrawn was already ruined in rebels, especially when he was defeated by a gaint flying yak and space whales. Dave Filoni has never created about the continuity created by others starting day one TCW.
They took a competent, well thought out character, that could be an actual threat. Just to stick him in a blender, spit on him, then make him look like elon musk in the live action
I honestly think we haven't quite seen what Thrawn is capable of yet. Ahsoka was just the start and IIRC for rebels he consulted Zahn to an extent so...yeah.
When Rebels is already written, and you have Zahn in to consult for 5 minutes, there's not much he can do, really. I personally honestly doubt that Filoni is consulting with Zahn anymore. I don't think Zahn would be okay with Filoni completely ignoring and retconning the story for Zahn's canon Thrawn trilogy (2017-19) with Tales of the Empire, retconning all of the Chimera's crew and writing in Captain Pelleaon years ahead of when he became a part of the story
6:55 Eh, I don't know, purposefully allowing the Rebels to gather in such numbers where he could destroy them was a pretty smart move by Thrawn, the real issue is *how* he is shown to do it. If all of these Rebel victories were minor then I could understand his attitude, but Thrawn was just so damn arrogant the entire time. Even with Mikkelsen's good performance, Thrawn comes off as a smug arsehole at almost every point. Also why are you so pissed about 7:44 ? Thrawn is supposed to hate orbital bombardments and in Legends he considered the battle of Kalee his biggest failure even though he won because he couldn't think of another way to beat the Kalee warriors using their culture and art. The real problem is the fact that Filoni has him do not 1 but 2 orbital bombardments.
The biggest problem with FIloni is he is stuck doing silly fan service to thousands when Disney needs him to write compelling stories that will attract millions. The movies have always been the heart of Star Wars and while Filoni has been given a shot at live action, he seems to still want to tell thinly plotted kid's stories. I love the Clone Wars / Rebels but they only work for me because I don't think about the animated stories as seriously. I really hope they get a writer's room for the Ahsoka/Mando TV shows / movie or they'll be massive flops and it'll be a long time before we revisit this era of Star Wars. And let Zahn help with the characterization of Thrawn - there's a reason the books are still popular.
I agree with some of what you say but I feel like Filoni is trying to insert his lore wolves, whales, witches, gods into a universe that doesn’t need them. I mean watch ANH and then watch the Ahsoka finale. Two different universes, two different IPs. He had Obi Wan kill Mail and then made it canon which kills off any possibility of a Kenobi season 2 where Mail hunts down Obi Wan. I say let’s remove canon status from the animations and we then have a world of possibilities and less restrictions…
Thrawn really needed to win a game of 4d chess in Asoka, as in give the main cast a goal that leads them further away from the main goal. Something like take Sabean to the other side of the planet and have your big battle there so that the good guys tough it out and rescue Sabean while Thrawn makes a clean get away. This would also rhyme with something like dark force rising where the heroes manage to save one of the ships, while losing out on the fleet. In other words Thrawn is at his best when the heroes achieve a hollow victory, and it's revealed that they were completely outplayed.
3:45 OK, this particular criticism is a tad unfair. Thrawn does explain his tactics sometimes in the novels in both Canon and Legends, but usually he gives orders with no context to his crew and generally only explains to Pellaon or one of the other main officer characters after he has already executed his plan. Thus we as the audience should know what Thrawn's plan was when he explains it to a few characters *after* he has already executed his plan, not before.
The biggest problem with Thrawn in Rebels is the fact that they made him a Grand Admiral at all in Rebels. That means he is so high in the military that there are very few who could interfere with his operations. If they had made him a low ranking admiral or commodore with only a small task force, then he could be forced to lose or at least win an incomplete victory due to his lack of resources and the interference of a jealous superior. According to my understanding from Legends, that was the case, he would manage victories despite a lack of resources and interference from superiors. Then to keep peace at court Thrawn was exiled via a promotion to the frontier of Wild Space and the Unknown Regions with yet another under equipped fleet and told to conquer a new empire for the Emperor. He would come back to deal with a rogue grand admiral and then be promoted to that rank to fill the vacancy. If Filoni had done that instead, let Thrawn gradually win despite a lack of resources and interference from superiors only to be called away so that a jealous superior could gain the credit by administering the final blow only to blow it, then his character would be far more credible and the looming threat of his return more acceptable.
What people seem to forget- In Star Wars the bad guys are supposed to be smart, and they're supposed to win more often than not For example: A New Hope: Tantive IV - Empire wins Tattoine - Empire wins Alderaan - Empire Wins Death Star Escape - Empire Wins (tracks rebel base) Empire Strikes Back: They basically do not lose a single time in this film ROTJ: Jabba's cronies capture Luke Heroes captured by Ewoks with ease Empire initially has the upper hand on the ground battle of Endor Empire has the upper hand throughout the majority of the space battle of Enor. That's just the OT. There are more examples in the PT that I am too lazy to write out.
5:10 Yes but that child in the picture didn't closely resemble Hera at all. Plus to the average xenophobic high ranking Imperial, twileks look pretty similar.
Last spring, I read all the Thrawn books. (It was Hot Thrawn Spring, ok.) The character in “Rebels” is a pale shadow of the original, in both intellect and moral complexity, but I still prefer those scenes over anything from the recent show.
Dave Filoni is a bad writer. His is an animator and he writes like an animator. In fact, he writes like a children's animator. He has the sophistication of a child, and it shows. He's a con man he really doesn't know what he's doing, and he simply plays at knowing what he's doing. Filoni is a hack. This is why he was able to stay of the good side of Kathleen Kennedy. He's more than willing to fake it and throw aside creative integrity. Filoni can't write a smart Thrawn because he isn't a smart man. Dave Filoni is criminally over-rated.
I think it is like my take on Doctor Who. Matt Smith was a very fun actor, but they did bizarre story decisions etc. Whole plot arcs completely unresolved and again hidden by pretending to be clever. But the Doctor was really well played, so watching it, you're enjoying his performance. And only when you think about it you go, Hey, Why did the Tardis explode? How did that happen? Why didn't it happen a second time? Where did the Cybermen come from? Why aren't the Daleks a universal threat anymore? Etc etc And Thrawn is played charismatically, so you sort of forget that he is bland story wise
This video does a poor job of characterizing how Thrawn actually is in Rebels. Sure, Thrawn can defeat the rebels in every single encounter he has with them, but in doing so he makes his job of finding the rebel base harder. That's why he lets them get away with Y-Wings, because the ships that arrived were not the entire rebel fleet. He's waiting to find all of them to take them out all at once. That's why I find the portion at 6:55 a bit disingenuous. Thrawn does actually succeed in narrowing down the location of the base on Atalon, but because we have main characters in this show OBVIOUSLY they can't win. So Filoni has to bs something like The Bendu to make him lose. That being said, is Thrawn as capable in Rebels as he is in the novels? Absolutely not. But he's nowhere as idiotic and inept as he is in the Ahsoka show
As someone who was excited to see Thrawn in a show and in live action; I have been nothing but disappointed, Thrawn got turned into Skeletor. I think Andor Had a better model for a story even though Cassian Andor is the worst written character in it; I believe it portrays a more "human" connection to the universe. It wasnt as simplified as a cartoon, that in thirty minutes the bad man will lose and everything will reset back to happiness. Just saying Andor did a great job at making possible one off characters extremely real, except for Andor.
you can´t blame people for never reading the thrawn trilogy but in the future those people are going to agree with you after reading the thrawn trilogy
Thrawn’s Actor Is The Saving Grace Of His “Disney” Adaptation. Makes the crap dialouge sound good. So Perfect for the role, that he’s The Narrator of the “Disney” Timothy Zahn books. Which i recommend more then this shit!
@@SQUIDBEARSTUDIOI blame the writing I think he’s a good actor and I think the reason he doesn’t look in shape is because he was while filming this filming the Witcher where he played a more heavy character he’s the same weight in this as the Witcher now that he is done with the Witcher he will probably lose weight because if you look at when they revealed him at Star Wars celebration he was very skinning so I think he probably has as legally not allowed to lose weight while in the Witcher because he is very skinny now
@@SQUIDBEARSTUDIO Actually I don't know why Lars was so overweight in this show. He's super thin, if you see him on the Ahsoka press tour. I think the problem largely sits with the skin and the eyes. The skin is too late, and the eyes don't have the eerie, glowing quality, and yet I still think it would work better with another actor. We KNOW other actors can pull of the Thrawn voice
I like most of the improvements he made to the pre existing characters, but it feels like once he joined Disney that he just gave up. He's like D&D from Game of Thrones.
Viggo Grimborn is a better Thrawn than "Canon" Thrawn! Every time the team in Race to the Edge encountered him, they still lost something even when they escaped with their lives.
To be fair, he's made his own version of Thrawn, hiding behind "supposed blessing" of original Thrawn books author, and is using this version of Thrawn as his excuse for "caring" about legends fans. It's called having his cake and eating it too...
Read all of them. The original Thrawn Trilogy, (Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, The Last Command) The Hand of Thrawn Duology, (Specter of the Past, Vision of the Future) Outbound Flight, Survivor's Quest, and maybe even Choices of One, (Though you must read Allegiance first) Then, in CANON, Zahn wrote a canon Thrawn trilogy, (Thrawn, Thrawn: Alliances, Thrawn: Treason) which are very good. He also wrote a prequel trilogy about Thrawn, called the Thrawn: Ascendancy trilogy. (Chaos Rising, The Greater Good, Lesser Evil) All very good and would be great to check out. You can start with either Legends or Canon. Canon takes place in the same universe as the Disney stuff
Your take on Rebels Thrawn is in my opinion bad. In Season 3 Thrawn allows the Heroes small victories because he doesn't care about wiping out a single rebel cell. He wants to find their base and kill them all. He manages to deduce where the rebels are hiding and that there is a spy within the Empire, because he sees a pattern between their attacks, they send his droid back and seem to have knowledge on the empire's movements they shouldn't have. And In the season finale the only reason he doesn't kill them ALL (He still wipes out most of then) is because of two factors outside of his control (Constantine disobeying his orders and Bendu). Season 4 I don't remember fully to make an argument although I think things still go nostly according to plan for him. And as for Ahsoka. That take is valid, because he is an idiot in that show.
Dave Falonis writing in the most mediocre shit ever, his directing makes actors feels like Stroic stale planks of wood and his ability to execute live action in poo! Andor on the other hand is a masterpiece of writing, directing and cinematic storytelling, and makes falonis kid friendly show look like a kiddy happy meal
Please, there are way better material out there and Andor is not it. Who even cares about these characters? I sure don’t because they all die in Rogue One anyway.
@@the-point-bearer6689 Have you even seen Andor? And if you have, how can you say only say it's bad with something as cliche as "Who even cares about these characters?"
Andor's biggest problem is budget. Tony Gilroy and his team are amazing writers, and they were able to write and direct the show to accommodate it. (Reusing sets and locations, on location shooting, etc.) However, I still found myself a little disappointed how Coruscant looked. I have 100% faith that the set designers know what to do, (The lower level where Luthen gives his iconic monologue is perfect) but it seems that they had to shoot most of Coruscant in real places to save money, and when they do, it just pulled me out. (Syril's mom's apartment complex looks like an Earth parking garage, another place looks like a normal city street, complete with Earth concrete) I know this is a nitpick, but that just goes to show how good the show is that THIS is my biggest issue. My hope is that season 2 had a higher budget and Andor will look as good as can be. Sorry for my tangent
i think the new canon thrawn books did a better job than rebels and ashoka but that because zahn wrote those books its only to bad zahn is a sell out but i guess that can be forgiven since he didn´t ruined thrawn in the new canon books but maybe he is not a sell out maybe he just didn´t wanna bash disney because he was under disney contract to write thrawn books for the new canon so he lied about filoni version being great
Dave Filoni ruined the Clone Wars Multimedia Project, he ruined Barriss Offee, Quinlan Vos, Assajj Ventress, the relationship of Anakin and Obi Wan, Darth Maul, the Clone Troopers, the Mandalorians, Admiral Thrawn, and whatnot
Don't forget Dooku, Grievous and Anakin. He constantly takes interesting characters and nerfs them to make his own characters look better by default. Whenever Ahsoka is around the characters just get dumbed down because god forbit his golden child loses or is weaker by comparison. Dooku & Grievous became shallow Sunday Morning cartoon villains, Anakin became this incompetent macho dude who can't do anything right because plot, Thrawn became a joke. Dave was never a good writer, the issues were present during TCW and became more obvious in his recent stuff.
I agree with everything stated, the only time I am not so critical of Disney Thrawn is Rebels season 3. First reason its a show aimed for younger audiences so I understand if his plans are going to be simpler. Two although it is stupid to let the enemy get away to find the location of the rebel base, I always looked at it as Thrawn is younger and less experienced and is trying to understand his enemies so that he can wipe them out in one fell swoop. Three Plot armor, one thing I really hated in Rebels was the Insane amounts of plot armor. Other than that Season 4 Thrawn should have been playing the Rebels like a Flute, forcing the Rebels to make decisions that would lead to there downfall in the long run. Edit:And yes Thrawn should never have lost the battle in the season 3 Finally
Also, in season 3, his plan worked. He narrowed down exactly where they were, took his fleet and would have captured them all. He only didn't kill them because Tarkin ordered him not to. The Mandalorians only showed up because Constantine disobeyed orders because he was more concerned about glory in battle than victory. The failures of Thrawn in season 3 were always things he couldn't control, such as Constantine disobeying a direct order or being ordered himself to NOT kill them all. There was also no way for him to account for the Bendu. His letting them go over and over is what got them to gather their fleets in the first place. They got pilots, they got the plans for the shielded tie-fighters, they stole ships and their confidence was built up to such a degree that they felt confident preparing a large force all the while he figured out where they were. He overwhelmingly won that battle and the rebels just got out by the skin of their teeth, and the heroes were COMPETENT while doing it.
Thrawn was good in Rebels and he actually tried to take out Phoenix squadron and the Spectors however imbeciles like Admiral Constantine and Governor Price interfered with his plans like on Atallon where he nearly wiped out the rebels until Constantine fell for Sato's plan and destroyed a interdictor... Yeah I now see about why was Constantine given control of a interdictor and not a ISD because if that happened then Ezra wouldn't have been able to escape and then Thrawn would've won the war in the Lothal sector
I'm gonna be honest. Filoni didn't ruin Thrawn in my opinion. Zahn did. Yeah, I said it. Because here's the thing - you can absolutely have a character that's good at what they do. Unparalleled, even. In a lot of cases that's what makes a good villain since it adds narrative tension to the story, and it can even be necessary. That said.... there is a very, very fine line between making a hypercompetent villain and a Villain Sue. No one likes the latter. At that point losses in the story aren't dictated by the character being incredibly good at their job, it feels more like a Diabolos ex Machina... and that's what Thrawn turned into with Zahn saying one simple thing in an interview, something along the lines of "Thrawn can't be beaten in a fair fight", thus the only way for him to die being a surprise assassination. Which... no, I'm sorry but at that point it's lazy writing. That's not a case of a clever solution or characters learning from their mistakes. At that point your protagonists have lost all agency and the writer basically has to step in and fix the problem - it is always the mark of bad writing when characters can undergo their journeys only for it to ultimately have no impact on a major part of the plot, sole exceptions being grimdark and cosmic horror where that's the entire point of the genre. Thrawn as an idea is an amazing character. But even his original writer massively dropped the ball with that mindset since it reduced him to a plot device and one that the protagonists had no ability to influence or affect.
the prequels are good even without the clone wars the prequels didn´t have issues its the haters who like to nitpick and filoni who is a prequel hater in disguise choose to please the prequel haters.anakin and obi-wan relationship in episode 2 doesn´t contratict what obi-wan said in episode 4.friends also get mad at one another and you can tell the first time they appeared in episode 2 that they are friends.just because anakin and obi-wan relationship wasn´t perfect in episode 2 doesn´t mean they weren´t friends
Oh please I like the prequels but they had many issues Hayden Christian’s was really bad in episode 2 better in episode 3 I couldn’t believe his and padmes relationship plus Jar Jar was a bad character overall George Lucus is good when he’s giving uses but not fully in control the reason the original trilogy is great is because George lucus had people telling him no he when it comes to creating premise is great but when it comes to filling in the worlds I don’t feel like he is a good example is in the documentary disturbance in the force which is about they Star Wars holiday special the people making the holiday special met with George once and he told them what he called secret information and here is what he told them the reason Han Solo can understand Wookis language is because he was married to a wooki I’m not joking that is what he told them
I agree that the prequels are good without TCW and am tired of the old argument. But I don't consider Filoni to be a prequel hater, whatever his other faults, and most of the changes you hate in TCW were ordered by Lucas himself. I think TCW is flawed but good overall, and the prequels' biggest problem was that the story was too big for 3 movies. Lucas managed to pull it off anyway, just proving how good of a writer he is, but having more story would improve them even more. This is why Lucas created TCW in the first place. So I think the prequels are already good without TCW, but TCW makes them better, not worse
There's a trick to writing characters smarter than you. Disney doesn't have any of those writers, unfortunately. If you want more of REAL Thrawn, read Zahn's Ascendency novels and prequels novels. Shows how Thrawn came to be.
Viewers/readers should not need to bend over backwards to justify the actions of a character when they do not give enough reason to trust that character in the first place.
Thrawn's strategies and tactics were just laughably bad, you could just have a random RTS player taking his job and they would be 10 times more effective than he is.
Yes, yes this all it takes to satisfy surface level Star Wars fans. I remember when this sphere of the lore was niche and a character like Thrawn and others were part of the in depth lore you had to dive into. Now is nothing more than a showpiece to be wasted as a gimmick. Thats all Star Wars is now and the people helming it arent interested in that kind of deep Star Wars that existed prior to 2012 apart from what they can cherry pick to prop up their failing ip. Star Wars is dead, but what good their is of it is within the old tomes from those good times
I've not cared for anything Filoni has done with Star Wars outside of the 2008 Clone Wars animated show (and keep in mind, he worked under both George Lucas's creative vision and guidance, plus much more talented writers). Even though I fully admit that Clone Wars is far from perfect. Everything else he's done from Rebels, the Mandalorian and the Ahsoka show (who honestly should have just stayed dead by the end of the 2nd season of Rebels) I have not watched or have any interest in the slightest for. Then again, that's largely due to the fact the Mary Rey Sue Palpatine trilogy forever killed off my interest for modern Star Wars crap under Disney.
@@officialmonarchmusic the terrible dialogue of Hayden Christian in attack of the clones how Obi Wan doesn’t recognize R2 or 3PO how Yoda isn’t obi Wans master I enjoy the 2 of the 3 prequels I’m not a hater I just don’t have to deny flaws I can appreciate a film and acknowledge the problems with a film
2:26 The best use of the "bad guy that keeps letting the good guys go because _reasons"_ is Koragg the Wolf Knight from Power Rangers Mystic Force. He was an evil, yet honor-bound knight (veeeeery Aurthian legend) who would keep beating the good guys and have them on the ropes and then just _leave_ because it would be dishonorable to stomp them out when they're so weak and beneath him. Like if a little kid started smacking his leg with a wooden stick and called it a sword, he'd shove him into the mud and break his stick, maybe smack him with it for good measure, but he wouldn't _snap the kid's neck._ That's just _beneath_ him.
It happened SO OFTEN it became a _PLOT POINT_ where the other badguys *_put him on TRIAL for not being evil enough_* and accused him of intentionally subverting their Evil Master's goals because he never _"finish the job."_ It was awesome that they actually addressed and utilized the trope, and added onto it to build up the reveal that Koragg was secretly the possessed form of the *_hero named Leanbow, long thought dead, who's been fighting to take back control of this body for YEARS,_* and subtitling influencing the evil spirit 'Koragg' to lean into his honor code to save his _family_ from being killed by him. It was AWESOME.
You just used a Power Rangers comparison and as a die hard Tokusatsu fan I respect you for it
To write an intelligent character, you must have equal or greater intelligence. Filoni has been weighed and measured and found wanting.
See, I disagree with that theory. I think it's perfectly possible to write a character smarter than yourself, because you as a writer have days to come up with solutions that the characters have seconds to resolve. But intelligence represents work and dilligence, effort that is clearly not on display.
@@RafesEpicStuffYou could be right, but that makes Filoni even dumber than I thought.
@rafezap not to mention to follow up with Zahn and talk about potential new ideas. After Rebels, Dave simply cast Zahn to the side and unfortunately dumb down Thrawn's intelligence.
Thrawn's plan was to wait for the Rebels to draw all their available allies together to liberate Lothal, plus locate their base, and catch them all at the point of major mustering. Then trap and eliminate them - as many as possible. So it was about waiting for the largest amount of fish in the net. Whilst also being ordered to take at least some prisoners (per Tarkin)
That doesn't always come off so well, along the way, but the method is fairly solid.
What it is though - is cold blooded. Lots of expendable forces along the way, justified arguably by the vast Imperial resources and war machine (plus Thrawn is ultimately working towards his own people's benefit, rather than the Empire's, externally, per books)
In Ahsoka it was about moving the... whatever it was, mcguffins, off of Peridea, to his ship, in time to escape with them. Whilst not necessarily being honest with Morrigan, about this.
But yeah, this does feel fairly toned down to his original modus operandi. And yes, somewhat contrived.@@RafesEpicStuff
@@RafesEpicStuff Known your own limits and working on some way to surpass it, could be considered a high level of intelligence too. What is not the case of the hack cowboy anyway...
My opinion of Filoni changed drasticly in the past few year it's crazy
I imagine Thrawn accidently shooting his own leg off by accident and be like "acceptable casualty. things are going according to plan"
Disney wars thrawn has the same issue as other disney wars bad guys(not counting Andor)
The main characters have so little brain power that if you distract them, they forget to breath
In order for the good guys to survive they need to have plot armor thicker than reality or the bad guys have to act dumber than a headless chicken
The best part about your very funny comment is that it's not even an exaggeration! 😂
The villains in "Andor" have the problem of just being pathetic.
@CanadianPale The villains in Andor aren’t pathetic at all tbh. Sure Syril is pathetic but he’s not a villain, he’s an antagonist.
@@LordRevan-vi2op and that's what the Imperials in Lucas's Star Wars (barring Tarkin and perhaps Admiral Motti) were: antagonists. By and large they were honourable, competent men who were opposed to the Rebel Alliance because they genuinely believed in the Empire, not because they were inherently malicious people. Of course, "Andor" being a cartoon masquerading as "mature" storytelling doesn't follow up on that, so instead of the cool, focused professionalism of a Piett or a Veers we get sad-sack cereal-eating Syril or some fat doofus chortling about oppressing the natives.
@@CanadianPale Syril isn't an Imperial, though. He was apart of the Corporate Authority and functioned as what would the equivalent of what would be Amazon's private army.
Sorry, Thrawn has been sent to the past and molded into the rebellion. He calls himself Luthen Rael now.
I've been called a hater for pointing out how stupid Thrawn's decisions were in the Ashoka show. I didnt watch Rebels so I decided to lay off him and give it a break. Then I saw this and had a little chuckle. How can he be an intelligent villian if he just lets the hero's win and gets bodied when he doesn't mean to let them win? How can you take him seriously? Thank you for helping me realize I'm not insane...
he is a tiny bit better in rebels... BUUUUT not by much.
want to ruin ashoka even more for yourself?
ask this question....
why didnt thrawn pre load all of the nightsisters cargo BEFORE morrigan arrives? if thrawn did, then the show would be over and thrawn wins! lol...
the entire show is constantly having to be retarded because otherwise the show would have ended in episode 1 if the assassin droids sent after sabine used a sniper rifle to kill her, take the orb then leave before ahsoka arrives to go get thrawn...
OR think about this, why does thrawn even WANT to leave this new galaxy? why doesnt thrawn rbing the imperial remnant over to this new galaxy at a later date? thrawn is hyper intelligent and a genius... i would have lured the ghost crew to this new galaxy to stop my return and to save ezra, but secretly i want them to save ezra and think i am trapped in this new galaxy forever but in reality i needed ezra gone so i can build my empire in this new galaxy...
IMAGINE if thrawn brought the imperial remnant to this new galaxy? a new galaxy to strip mine for resources, barren worlds to set up cloning facilities and factories... you could use the nightsisters knowledge of their own galaxy and star maps to farm it for resources and build up a military to rival the new republic who will suspect the empire's remnant was defeated... if even just bring over the people and supplies i need then sacrifice the rest by leaking their base locations to the new republic so they wipe out the remnant i didnt take with me.... so the new republic thinks it won against the empire fully and after a few decades will let their guards down and allow us to infiltrate the government for info... then once we have a new and improved military empire set up in the new galaxy, we will invade seeing as theres only ONE WAY to get to this new galaxy, and thats to go to the stupid space whale graveyard world lol its such a easy place to set up a blockade fleet to annihilate any ships that try to come.
@@ninvusoogoar6098 man ahsoka really did disappoint me in many ways. One being they didn’t kill off Sabine but instead kept that insufferable character and did the most stupid thing possible and give her the ability to use the force
@@ninvusoogoar6098 Ngl, I'd say he's quite good in rebels. After he lets them go after he loses, it gets explained as a way to trim down all the possible planets which are the rebel base.
They spend a long time building up to it where they barely win, and then it shows him getting closer to finding their base.
Which is a great build up for when he actually does go to the base and decisively wins. The only few rebels that escape do so due to a sacrifice, a bad subordinate and a giant force.. thing.
He isn't a genius who always wins, but it's definetly excusable and when he wins he does so majorly.
Thrawn after getting half his fleet blown up: “Hm yes… all according to plan…”
That sounds like me when I’m playing empire at war with my friends
"Everybody likes to praise Dave Filoni as the savior for Star Wars, but for me he always seemed to be the type of writer that changed Star Wars into what he wants it to be, even at the cost of the writing."
THANK you. This man speaks truth. Round of applause. Part of the reason The Mandalorian stopped working for me is because it felt like as Filoni took over more of the writing duties, it stopped being a cool space western about a merc dad, and started to be.. Yet Another Clone Wars Sequel. I initially loved the character of Ahsoka the same as everyone else, but after a decade and a half of tv shows, comic books, novels and cartoons where she's the focus or a major player her character feels all tapped out, but Filoni won't let her go and is determined to keep her in narrative focus just as much as, if not more so than, any of the Skywalkers. I'm not trying to hate but Star Wars feels like less and less of a sandbox for various authors, filmmakers and artists to build upon, and more and more Filoni making it an overlong extension of Clone Wars and Rebels.
100% agree on the point about Ahsoka. There was a moment when I actually liked her but realised she made less and less sense seeing as she's appeared in ZERO films in any trilogy and we're supposed to believe she was somehow important to Anakin and Luke because Filoni retconned her into the lore and pretends that Anakin always had this padawan that we know nothing about.
She feels more and more like one of those fanfiction OCs and I'm starting to think Filoni didn't kill her off even if that was the most sensible thing to do because he likes that royalty money too much.
@@badman_iiixiiiYes. The fact she’s still alive and kicking feels improbable, if not impossible. Even as TCW aired I felt that narrative couldn’t have possibly ended with Ahsoka alive, that Anakin wouldn’t just “overlook” his own Padawan. I accepted the, kinda weak, season 6 answer that Ahsoka just walked away from the Jedi before the Battle of Coruscant… But there she was, in the thick of things during Order 66. Afterwards I accepted the Rebels answer that Ahsoka and Vader faced each other, with Ahsoka’s death being implied… But then Ezra uses time magic to rescue her. I guess the force is with her because she truly has some of the greatest plot armor of all time.
@@badman_iiixiii
Unfortunately, Ahsoka was introduced by Lucas, and according to Wikipedia, Filoni was confused, saying "No, Anakin doesn't have a padawan, what do you mean?"
Lucas killed the EU
I don't even like the new Clone Wars. Honestly, it cannot hold a candle to the original Tartakovsky cartoon miniseries.
That guy knew how to respect the foundations of the series. All Filoni did was mess up the continuity and inner logic of the series beyond repair.
Also, Rebels and the concept of the new inquisitors forced into the backdrop of the original trilogy further pushes apart the prequel and the OT era.
How in the hell imperial officers don't remember or don't care about the Force or the Jedi, when they've been contantly serving under their Dark Jedi counterparts for like decades, up until 5 years prior the New Hope?
Honestly, it's all beyond repair for me at this point.
Star Wars officially ended for me with the last Lucas vision, The Force Unleashed I.
Everything since then is garbage, only consumed because there's no better Star Wars content anymore.
Disney can rot with it's money.
The key thing about defeating thrawn in an authentic way, Thrawn isnt defeated by out thinking him. He is defeated because of the small actions the good guys take which lead to a snowball effect that Thrawn couldnt possibly have predicted. Any planned countermove would have been discovered by him and overcome. Thats why his last words are "it was so artfully done" when his bodyguard stabbed him, because in that moment he realized what must have happened and that the Noghri were working with leia behind his back.
I'd like to add something here: Dave Filoni's blatant disregard for the books. In George's canon, George and Dave were willing to overwrite the books and extended media because Lucas had established that it COULD and WOULD happen. When Disney started their new canon, they did so with the promise that unlike the old EU, the canon wouldn't be tiered. It would be more consistent than ever. Dav himself said so in the foreword for the appropriately titled "A New Dawn." Filoni did not stick to that promise for more than a year.
In Tales of the Empire, we get what is possibly the most blatant example of Filoni retconning better writers. Zahn wrote a way for Pelleaon to become involved in his absolutely brilliant canon Thrawn trilogy. ("Thrawn" (2017), "Thrawn: Alliances" (2018), "Thrawn: Treason" (2019)) Filoni retcons that, as well as the Chimera's entire crew. It's just insulting at this point. Filoni also blatantly disregards Thrawn's Chiss roots and their importance. Zahn should be writing these shows
They way they changed Darth bane, clone commandos series, and freaking who thought it was a good idea for the world between worlds.
@@wb7585Those were acceptable because they were under Lucas’s canon, which did NOT promise that those stories would be followed to a tee.
And the world between worlds is one of the worst things Filoni has ever done
@@officialmonarchmusic i can understand the top, but just man i've had many road trips listening to the audio books so RIP i mean still have some so good to go
@@wb7585Yeah, I need to check out the old Republic, which is my major blind spot. To be honest, I was never a fan of how the clones were depicted in the commando series. It’s a hot take of mine, but I actually really like the idea of the chips. It was established by the multimedia project that clones COULD disobey Order 66, and I think that’s ridiculous and basically insinuates that all of the other clones were perfectly willing to do what they did
@@officialmonarchmusic Yeah i can respect that. I grew up on battlefront 2. So to me i interrupt it to being conditioning to clones. Plus experience in military. I do enjoy both inhibitos and clones conditioning aspects of clone's betray.
However, i will be die hard on how they had old republic for Darth Bane. (You can find it on youtube for audio book.) I will link the vids if you want
Filoni hates the EU and characters that arent his own. Hes trying to get rid of Thrawn and ruin him thoroughly to boost his own favorite toys
What did the European Union do to him
It's not about EU only, he made his own version of SW Universe and he doesn't care about original personalities of characters, he works with his own. Clone Wars already breaks the original lore, not everyone saw this, but as far it goes the more changes he makes.
@@EmilioVargas-ye3er charges him import duty tax on his stupid cowboy hat
He did that to Republic Commando and Starkiller ( Substituted by Ezra)
To be fair, he's made his own version of Thrawn, hiding behind "supposed blessing" of original Thrawn books author, and is using this version of Thrawn as his excuse for "caring" about legends fans.
It's called having his cake and eating it too...
one of my favorite scenes in the books is when Luke escapes using some torpedo trick, and you think Thrawn's going to Vader the gunner who fucked up when he starts scolding them. But then he forgives him because he wasn't trained properly for those scenarios and admits his fault, turning is ire on the gunner's commanding officer who tried to throw his subordinate under the bus.
"A bad guy with morals. Almost makes him one of the good guys." - Max Payne
It's the other way around. The gunner gets killed, not because he messed up, but because he tried to deflect the blame onto his CO who trained him. The CO takes responsibility and responds honestly, so Thrawn has the gunner killed for not taking ownership of his actions and trying to get his crewmate in trouble.
In a later book, something similar happens, yet when the gunner explains what happened, Thrawn promotes him for being a quick and outside-the-box thinker
They really gave Thrawn the Hux treatment... Honestly I'd argue Hux actively did more than whatever the hell Thrawn did during Dave Filoni's writing (Not counting the bullshit spy arc because what the Hell was that)
Filoni's Thrawn was taking lessons from Tzeentch.
i was always disappointed that starkiller (force unleashed 3) got cancelled by Disney but now I'm glad they don't attempt to ruin what I love
The problem is and always will be trying to execute this in an era of kids' shows that have no teeth. Filoni-Thrawn is just the latest example in poorly executed Xanatos-es. Xatanosi? Xatani? Davids Xanatos?
Xanatos worked as a bad guy in the original gargoyles show *partly* because they didn't literally kick him around _every episode_ and partly because he *lost* in the opening 5-part mini series and we were shown him a.) actually losing and b.) not being terribly set back by actually losing.
Then, as the show progresses, Xanatos works as a villain because he's sort of constantly harming people either indirectly, emotionally, or opportunistically. He recruits one of our main characters' family members away from the good guys to work as his private security, then engineers a situation where that private security dude is put in a position to "accidentally" get mutated. Part of this is just to maintain leverage over the security guard (if Xanatos can find the cure, then Xanatos is the only one who can help him) and partly to wield leverage against one of the show's protagonists, who now has to grapple with her family being drawn into her personal vendetta against this billionaire villain.
And that's just *one story arc.* It actually takes like three episodes to make that happen. And that's important - time. Villainous schemes take time to mature. It's what allows them to build in room for "error" (.e.g good guys winning).
Introducing villainous plans with layers isn't hard, but you have to be willing to let your villains a.) punch up sometimes and b.) punch _down_ sometimes. Their goals have to exist and be obvious beyond the scope of our heroes. They shouldn't be out here stopping our heroes; our heroes need to be out there _stopping them_. Then the act of creating the plan which is ultimately thwarted is already impressive and can be made more so with handwave regressions.
It's the Kang problem where all of these villains are written as if they have the gravitas of hundreds of hours of content. Always talking big game about how many people they killed yet they can't defeat the incompetent main protagonists.
Thrawn, in Legends: a ludicrously intelligent commander who always tries to be at least two steps ahead of his opponent
Thrawn, in Disney canon: a bumbling buffoon who struggles to do ANYTHING significant
More like:
Timothy Zahn's Thrawn in Legends and Canon: intelligent and complex character
Dave Clown Filoni version: Pure evil and incompetent
@@jarogniewtheconqueror2804 Filoni's asinine stories ARE canon to Disney
Timothy Zahn wrote 6 new books to tie in with Disney Star Wars and they are excellent in portraying Thrawn. 3 are set during his time in the Empire and 3 leading up to his exile in rhe Chiss Ascendancy.
Dave Filoni chose to disregard his ENTIRE character arc and any development Timothy Zahn put into the character. The Rebels/Ahsoka Thrawn is a completely different person.
I never read a single Thrawn book and even I can tell that this is not the character that people would have fallen in love with.
Let's go over the tactical ineptitude, shall we?
1. Designing a kill box that can't kill
2. Calling off a successful attack on your enemy
3. Sending insufficient resources and manpower to engage an enemy
4. Engaging an enemy that poses no threat to you
5. Making another kill box than can't kill
6. Making ANOTHER Killbox that can't kill
7. No guards or impediments for enemies in your base
And despite all of THAT!!! he somehow wins because the good guys are still worse...
Why the fuck does anyone actually fight for this guy, bro literally ensures the deaths of ships worth of men and endangers the whole mission of the empire for.... What？
Disney Thrawn is a mixed bag for me. On the one hand you have the lows of Filoni handling him. On the other, you have some incredible highs in the new books wirtten by Zhan.
"This version of Thrawn talks like how a stupid person thinks a smart person talks." - The Little Platoon
"Expaned the universe they threw away" perfect quote to summarize the state of Star Wars
The best part is, is that the original Thrawn trilogy isn't even the best of Thrawn!
In a creative/writers perspective Its kind of amazing to see Thrawn's changes when you read all of Timothy Zahn's Thrawn books in order (including Outbound flight, the new canon trilogy and Ascendancy)
It was as if Mr. Zahn was still fine turning the character as he was writing these books, and you slowly see Zahn shifting Thrawn into the kind of character he inevitably intended him to be. Especially by the time you get to Outbound Flight!
THEN Zahn gets the chance to write it all again!? Leading to us getting that fine tuned and wonderfully developed Thrawn in the canon books today.
Just- Chefs Kiss! Timothy Zahn!
The canon trilogy books and Ascendancy trilogy are a more accurate and developed Thrawn.
He. Is. AMAZING!
If you like Thrawn, then I HIGHLY highly recommend the new trilogy, followed by the Ascendancy trilogy. Thrawn is a way more flushed out character in those.
The downside is that it makes the absolute disservice Filoni did to Thrawn as a character, and Zahn as a writer THAT much worse...
YES! I'm glad someone else is saying this. Zahn made Thrawn, (and Captain Pelleaon, who became one of the most interesting and likable characters in the entire EU) a more interesting character in every installment until Outbound Flight and (briefly) Choices of One, where we get what I'd call the definitive version of Legends Thrawn. Canon Thrawn had that built into him from the moment Zahn began writing, and the canon Thrawn trilogy is great. I'll be honest, I was never a very big fan of the Ascendancy trilogy, it just lost me very quickly, but it still handled Thrawn's character well.
Then we get Filoni's "Tales of the Empire" which retcons all of the Chimera's crew, along with how Thrawn met Pelleaon in the first place in canon. It's honestly insulting. Filoni clearly considers his peer's work beneath him
Not seeing Eli is disappointing…. The only hope we have is Zahn helping
Agreed! I want to see Thrawn fight the Grysk
I was once brainwashed too. I thought Filoni was going to Star Wars and honor the Eu because I liked The Clone Wars and I liked the first two seasons of The Mandalorian. The moment I woke up was when I saw The Book of Boba Fett and The Bad Batch, two shows where nothing really happens. That's when I saw Filoni as a hack but I was willing to give him a chance until I saw this show and his portrayal of Thrawn.
Filoni didn't make Book of Boba Fett or Bad Batch dumbass.
The first two seasons of "The Mandalorian" are mostly Jon Favreau's work. Just saying.
1:53 my guy right around this time stamp your showing his biggest victory in the series, literally crushing a season long effort to build up the Rebel Alliance. This attack was so bad the alliance had to think “ya know maybe we aren’t all that ready for this right now”
He let them go throughout season 2 cus he was using them to pinpoint where their headquarters was, successfully. And then after that the one time he got his hands on a rebel leader he fucking tortured her like what are we doing?
Damn, this is the actual most perfect explaination to the entire issue, adressing everything very well.
How does the New Republic even work? Why should the Chancellor hold a vote in the Senate to allow the general (!) to take a squadron if only one senator can approve this mission?
Huyang throughout the series: gives logical and rational arguments for why Ahsoka's actions are idiotic.
Ahsoka: no. Do as I say, I have plot armor and plot luck.
Huyang: Okay.
Minefield. Do you have any idea how many mines it takes to mine SPACE? And how long will it take? And why weren't any whales harmed by them?
Naturally, flying straight through the wreckage, you won’t damage even the antenna on your boat...
Sabin, you still haven’t told Ezra the situation, even though you don’t have time? What a stupid cow you are...
How did Beilan and Shin negotiate with the red riders, who obviously do not know their language and who caught them over the corpses of their comrades?
Naturally, Ahsoka and Sabine can connect mentally, despite the fact that Sabine is insensitive to the Force... and Ezra is sitting next to her, but Ahsoka does not feel him...
Witches can not only sense Ahsoka, but also determine her position on the map with an accuracy of up to a meter? But they couldn't find Ezra for 10 years?
Thrawn, if you don't care whether you defeat your enemies or not because you'll get off the planet, why don't you just shoot and bomb them from the air instead of sending a useless landing party? Actually, you don’t have many soldiers left, and you still have to fight the Republic...
Ezra. You're a fucking Jedi. Take your fucking lightsaber and fight Shin! Sabin doesn't even use it!
Ezra is so strong that he can forcefully stop Shin's blows, but Shin can knock him back and knock him out?
The Ninja Turtles invented flying armored personnel carriers, but they shoot with fucking slingshots? By armored riders? How about just running them over?
Ahsoka, why did you jump off to fight Baylan if your goal is to help Ezra and Ahsoka and he doesn’t threaten them? And your plan was to let Huyang burn you with flashes?
Naturally, Ahsoka can simply drive into the frame through a crowd of stormtroopers, they can’t do anything at all...
How about disarming and tying up Shin so you have a hostage and an extra lightsaber? No?
In short, I've had enough. The series is shit, which will be licked because they showed us a hologram of Anakin and he said “Ventress.” Filoni is an arrogant hack, no better than Abrams or Johnson. Thanks everyone for reading.
Exactly.
Fans were the ones who caused all this to happen. They've been hating on Lucas incredibly hard, especially after the RLM reviews, it all went over to Disney, and people were praising that talentless idiot Abrams, begging these psychopaths at Disney to seek him out and put him in control of the Sequels. It's pathetic, the man can't write or direct for shit!
Disney doesn't know Star Wars, don't love Star Wars, never cared about Star Wars: for them it's a money printing machine.
Fans should have been more strict with them and not such sheepish consumer idiots, but sending all the wrong criticism and requests back at them not just turned Star Wars into a media crap below mediocre, but also changed the fanbase into a toxic mess.
Disney turning to Filoni is just their last pathetic attempt to try and calm the fanbase, as at least half of the fans fell for this talentless ahole and somehow see him as a legit replacement for Lucas.
These people don't deserve the Star Wars legacy. They can't come up with anything worthy of the legend, all they can do is twist around and ruin legacy characters and stories.
5:44 That’s literally what I’ve been saying! He’s the only character with (some) common sense. Like, guys, what if we drew two lines to find the rebel base? DAVE FILONI WHYYYYYYYYYYY?!?!
Filoni ruined more than just Thrawn!
5:49: Thank you! I've been complaining about this for forever, and have been frustrated when friends try to make the excuse of "He was just confirming his suspicions."
Thrawn was the imperial you found yourself almost cheering for.
He is an alien, he shows care for his troops, he is intelligent and tactical. He is different to all other imperial leaders you see and it makes you think “maybe he is actually not that bad. Maybe he could do some good with his power”
Sadly Thrawn has been dumbed down to make the dumber hero’s win all the time
Especially when you learn more about him, and his reasons for being in the Empire in the first place
I don't know how you define "care for his troops"....... In "heir to the empire" there is a moment where he executed a guy thanks for failing in his job as someone at a fire control station. In the first space engagement in the book he sacrificed some troops to analyze the enemy tactic and showed no remorse for the fighter pilot deaths nor did they help so more of the rest could survive. The justification was that they where just a tool for his plan and a a recourse that is used like the rest.
It clearly shows that as long as you are useful he helps you to be more useful to him.
@@ichmich9324First things first, Zahn has refined the character since. The canon version of Thrawn is based on similar ideas, but not the same, as Heir to the Empire.
Second, though it was harsh, Thrawn didn’t execute the tractor beam operator for failing. He executed him for not taking ownership for his own mistakes and trying to push the blame onto his superior. In killing him, Thrawn was attempting to discourage the Imperial culture of blaming and backstabbing in favor of unity and responsibility. In a very cold and violent way.
Second, he sacrifices troops to save lives overall. He is a utilitarian. When he sacrifices those troops, he is doing so to protect his troops overall
Goddamnit, he's right. Now that I see it I cant freaking unsee it -_-
See what?
Dave filoni is only good to star wars for those who likes fan service, because this is the only thing he knows how to do
Fan service
Thrawn was already ruined in rebels, especially when he was defeated by a gaint flying yak and space whales. Dave Filoni has never created about the continuity created by others starting day one TCW.
They took a competent, well thought out character, that could be an actual threat. Just to stick him in a blender, spit on him, then make him look like elon musk in the live action
7:45 I fucking died. I’m so glad that people are realizing what a simpleton Filoni really is. Too bad it’s not enough people
I honestly think we haven't quite seen what Thrawn is capable of yet. Ahsoka was just the start and IIRC for rebels he consulted Zahn to an extent so...yeah.
Hopefully your right I want Zahn to have more say over how they handle thrawn
When Rebels is already written, and you have Zahn in to consult for 5 minutes, there's not much he can do, really. I personally honestly doubt that Filoni is consulting with Zahn anymore. I don't think Zahn would be okay with Filoni completely ignoring and retconning the story for Zahn's canon Thrawn trilogy (2017-19) with Tales of the Empire, retconning all of the Chimera's crew and writing in Captain Pelleaon years ahead of when he became a part of the story
the problem with Filoni is that he's already told his stories in Clone Wars and Rebels, he's done but they keep trying to get more out of him!
6:55 Eh, I don't know, purposefully allowing the Rebels to gather in such numbers where he could destroy them was a pretty smart move by Thrawn, the real issue is *how* he is shown to do it. If all of these Rebel victories were minor then I could understand his attitude, but Thrawn was just so damn arrogant the entire time. Even with Mikkelsen's good performance, Thrawn comes off as a smug arsehole at almost every point.
Also why are you so pissed about 7:44 ? Thrawn is supposed to hate orbital bombardments and in Legends he considered the battle of Kalee his biggest failure even though he won because he couldn't think of another way to beat the Kalee warriors using their culture and art. The real problem is the fact that Filoni has him do not 1 but 2 orbital bombardments.
The biggest problem with FIloni is he is stuck doing silly fan service to thousands when Disney needs him to write compelling stories that will attract millions. The movies have always been the heart of Star Wars and while Filoni has been given a shot at live action, he seems to still want to tell thinly plotted kid's stories. I love the Clone Wars / Rebels but they only work for me because I don't think about the animated stories as seriously. I really hope they get a writer's room for the Ahsoka/Mando TV shows / movie or they'll be massive flops and it'll be a long time before we revisit this era of Star Wars. And let Zahn help with the characterization of Thrawn - there's a reason the books are still popular.
Filoni's main problem is that his story is over but Disneu wants more from him...
just let him be done!
I agree with some of what you say but I feel like Filoni is trying to insert his lore wolves, whales, witches, gods into a universe that doesn’t need them. I mean watch ANH and then watch the Ahsoka finale. Two different universes, two different IPs. He had Obi Wan kill Mail and then made it canon which kills off any possibility of a Kenobi season 2 where Mail hunts down Obi Wan. I say let’s remove canon status from the animations and we then have a world of possibilities and less restrictions…
He's supposed to be the Evolution of Sun Tzu, but exanded further.
not whatever He became💀💀💀
Thrawn really needed to win a game of 4d chess in Asoka, as in give the main cast a goal that leads them further away from the main goal. Something like take Sabean to the other side of the planet and have your big battle there so that the good guys tough it out and rescue Sabean while Thrawn makes a clean get away. This would also rhyme with something like dark force rising where the heroes manage to save one of the ships, while losing out on the fleet. In other words Thrawn is at his best when the heroes achieve a hollow victory, and it's revealed that they were completely outplayed.
I feel like at a certain point a tie fighter would have at least accidentally shot down a rebel craft.
3:45 OK, this particular criticism is a tad unfair. Thrawn does explain his tactics sometimes in the novels in both Canon and Legends, but usually he gives orders with no context to his crew and generally only explains to Pellaon or one of the other main officer characters after he has already executed his plan. Thus we as the audience should know what Thrawn's plan was when he explains it to a few characters *after* he has already executed his plan, not before.
The problem is no characters going to be any smarter than the writer who is writing them, and sadly, Dave is kinda...dumb...
I've read the Thrawn trilogy and I wish that Thrawn was done better, he deserved more. Screw disney for ruining Star Wars
the jojo music playing in the background.
Just one note: Thrawn stopped his bombardment of the Rebels because he was told by Tarkin to take the leadership alive. So…
The biggest problem with Thrawn in Rebels is the fact that they made him a Grand Admiral at all in Rebels.
That means he is so high in the military that there are very few who could interfere with his operations. If they had made him a low ranking admiral or commodore with only a small task force, then he could be forced to lose or at least win an incomplete victory due to his lack of resources and the interference of a jealous superior. According to my understanding from Legends, that was the case, he would manage victories despite a lack of resources and interference from superiors. Then to keep peace at court Thrawn was exiled via a promotion to the frontier of Wild Space and the Unknown Regions with yet another under equipped fleet and told to conquer a new empire for the Emperor. He would come back to deal with a rogue grand admiral and then be promoted to that rank to fill the vacancy.
If Filoni had done that instead, let Thrawn gradually win despite a lack of resources and interference from superiors only to be called away so that a jealous superior could gain the credit by administering the final blow only to blow it, then his character would be far more credible and the looming threat of his return more acceptable.
u dont imagine how much ive rooted for thrawn
What people seem to forget- In Star Wars the bad guys are supposed to be smart, and they're supposed to win more often than not
For example:
A New Hope:
Tantive IV - Empire wins
Tattoine - Empire wins
Alderaan - Empire Wins
Death Star Escape - Empire Wins (tracks rebel base)
Empire Strikes Back:
They basically do not lose a single time in this film
ROTJ:
Jabba's cronies capture Luke
Heroes captured by Ewoks with ease
Empire initially has the upper hand on the ground battle of Endor
Empire has the upper hand throughout the majority of the space battle of Enor.
That's just the OT. There are more examples in the PT that I am too lazy to write out.
5:10 Yes but that child in the picture didn't closely resemble Hera at all. Plus to the average xenophobic high ranking Imperial, twileks look pretty similar.
Last spring, I read all the Thrawn books. (It was Hot Thrawn Spring, ok.) The character in “Rebels” is a pale shadow of the original, in both intellect and moral complexity, but I still prefer those scenes over anything from the recent show.
Thats why im against bringing characters from EU, Disney and Feloni will destroy em
the thrawn trilogy is even in a comic version so there’s no excuse
Dave Filoni is a bad writer. His is an animator and he writes like an animator. In fact, he writes like a children's animator. He has the sophistication of a child, and it shows. He's a con man he really doesn't know what he's doing, and he simply plays at knowing what he's doing. Filoni is a hack. This is why he was able to stay of the good side of Kathleen Kennedy. He's more than willing to fake it and throw aside creative integrity. Filoni can't write a smart Thrawn because he isn't a smart man. Dave Filoni is criminally over-rated.
I think it is like my take on Doctor Who. Matt Smith was a very fun actor, but they did bizarre story decisions etc. Whole plot arcs completely unresolved and again hidden by pretending to be clever. But the Doctor was really well played, so watching it, you're enjoying his performance. And only when you think about it you go,
Hey, Why did the Tardis explode? How did that happen? Why didn't it happen a second time? Where did the Cybermen come from? Why aren't the Daleks a universal threat anymore? Etc etc
And Thrawn is played charismatically, so you sort of forget that he is bland story wise
Krispy Kreme Manager Thrawn
What if thrawn is playing a bigger game what if thrawn is buying his time
This video does a poor job of characterizing how Thrawn actually is in Rebels. Sure, Thrawn can defeat the rebels in every single encounter he has with them, but in doing so he makes his job of finding the rebel base harder. That's why he lets them get away with Y-Wings, because the ships that arrived were not the entire rebel fleet. He's waiting to find all of them to take them out all at once. That's why I find the portion at 6:55 a bit disingenuous.
Thrawn does actually succeed in narrowing down the location of the base on Atalon, but because we have main characters in this show OBVIOUSLY they can't win. So Filoni has to bs something like The Bendu to make him lose. That being said, is Thrawn as capable in Rebels as he is in the novels? Absolutely not. But he's nowhere as idiotic and inept as he is in the Ahsoka show
As someone who was excited to see Thrawn in a show and in live action; I have been nothing but disappointed, Thrawn got turned into Skeletor. I think Andor Had a better model for a story even though Cassian Andor is the worst written character in it; I believe it portrays a more "human" connection to the universe. It wasnt as simplified as a cartoon, that in thirty minutes the bad man will lose and everything will reset back to happiness. Just saying Andor did a great job at making possible one off characters extremely real, except for Andor.
He was also supposed to be someone who inspired his men. The fact he had the opposite effect on Kallus felt very off.
Kallus was a spy he was onto agent Kallus I could get that
you can´t blame people for never reading the thrawn trilogy but in the future those people are going to agree with you after reading the thrawn trilogy
Yes thank you someone who agree with me that Dave Filoni ruined Grand Admiral Thrawn
Thrawn’s Actor Is The Saving Grace Of His “Disney” Adaptation. Makes the crap dialouge sound good. So Perfect for the role, that he’s The Narrator of the “Disney” Timothy Zahn books. Which i recommend more then this shit!
He's definitely a good voice actor, but his body doesn't match the character at all.
@@RafesEpicStuff If only he got in shape or at least dubbed a more suitable actor, then he wouldve been great.
@@SQUIDBEARSTUDIOI blame the writing I think he’s a good actor and I think the reason he doesn’t look in shape is because he was while filming this filming the Witcher where he played a more heavy character he’s the same weight in this as the Witcher now that he is done with the Witcher he will probably lose weight because if you look at when they revealed him at Star Wars celebration he was very skinning so I think he probably has as legally not allowed to lose weight while in the Witcher because he is very skinny now
Actually, he isn't even the narrator for the audio book. It's another guy who just pulls off that voice really well!
@@SQUIDBEARSTUDIO Actually I don't know why Lars was so overweight in this show. He's super thin, if you see him on the Ahsoka press tour. I think the problem largely sits with the skin and the eyes. The skin is too late, and the eyes don't have the eerie, glowing quality, and yet I still think it would work better with another actor. We KNOW other actors can pull of the Thrawn voice
Timothy Zahn wrote new Canon books about thrawn, they were also absolutely amazing
Honestly we should let Timothy Zahn write thrawn dialogue and plans
Dare I say maybe better than the original Thrawn trilogy
Thrawn in the Ahsoka series is portrayed as the Black Knight from Monty Python..."Acceptable Losses...merely a flesh wound..."
That JoJos background music though.
Other then Maul and baylon all of filonis chracters are painfully one dimensional. look at what he did to dooku and he made grievous a joke
He also gave clones inhibitor chips which was shit writing alongside space whales, gods, time dimensions, and keeping Ahsoka alive
Anakin’s portrayal was good though
I like most of the improvements he made to the pre existing characters, but it feels like once he joined Disney that he just gave up. He's like D&D from Game of Thrones.
@@edwinf04 Iv grown to like the inhibitor chips but i think anakins patryal was just him copying the depiction we got from the start of rots
I'm pretty sure Dave Filoni didn't WRITE it, just gave out ideas. Or...maybe I'm wrong.
Do we have any hope because of Zahn supposedly is helping him?
Soooo many valid points! 👌 👏
Viggo Grimborn is a better Thrawn than "Canon" Thrawn! Every time the team in Race to the Edge encountered him, they still lost something even when they escaped with their lives.
To be fair, he's made his own version of Thrawn, hiding behind "supposed blessing" of original Thrawn books author, and is using this version of Thrawn as his excuse for "caring" about legends fans.
It's called having his cake and eating it too...
That's interesting I would like to read these books about admiral Thrawn.
Read all of them. The original Thrawn Trilogy, (Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, The Last Command) The Hand of Thrawn Duology, (Specter of the Past, Vision of the Future) Outbound Flight, Survivor's Quest, and maybe even Choices of One, (Though you must read Allegiance first)
Then, in CANON, Zahn wrote a canon Thrawn trilogy, (Thrawn, Thrawn: Alliances, Thrawn: Treason) which are very good. He also wrote a prequel trilogy about Thrawn, called the Thrawn: Ascendancy trilogy. (Chaos Rising, The Greater Good, Lesser Evil) All very good and would be great to check out. You can start with either Legends or Canon. Canon takes place in the same universe as the Disney stuff
Nice Thumbnail change, but you still have a lot left to learn! 😉
I hope so! I would hate it if I peaked so early.
Your take on Rebels Thrawn is in my opinion bad. In Season 3 Thrawn allows the Heroes small victories because he doesn't care about wiping out a single rebel cell. He wants to find their base and kill them all. He manages to deduce where the rebels are hiding and that there is a spy within the Empire, because he sees a pattern between their attacks, they send his droid back and seem to have knowledge on the empire's movements they shouldn't have. And In the season finale the only reason he doesn't kill them ALL (He still wipes out most of then) is because of two factors outside of his control (Constantine disobeying his orders and Bendu). Season 4 I don't remember fully to make an argument although I think things still go nostly according to plan for him. And as for Ahsoka. That take is valid, because he is an idiot in that show.
Space whales are a suicide tactic, I think that is not a plot problem (but at least I would prefer the death of kanan being thrawn fault)
Haven't we only seen him in like an episode and a half? Is it really time to call "ruined" ?
I liked trench better than thrawn
Dave Falonis writing in the most mediocre shit ever, his directing makes actors feels like Stroic stale planks of wood and his ability to execute live action in poo! Andor on the other hand is a masterpiece of writing, directing and cinematic storytelling, and makes falonis kid friendly show look like a kiddy happy meal
Please, there are way better material out there and Andor is not it. Who even cares about these characters? I sure don’t because they all die in Rogue One anyway.
Prequel is a thing@@the-point-bearer6689
@@the-point-bearer6689 Have you even seen Andor? And if you have, how can you say only say it's bad with something as cliche as "Who even cares about these characters?"
Andor's biggest problem is budget. Tony Gilroy and his team are amazing writers, and they were able to write and direct the show to accommodate it. (Reusing sets and locations, on location shooting, etc.) However, I still found myself a little disappointed how Coruscant looked. I have 100% faith that the set designers know what to do, (The lower level where Luthen gives his iconic monologue is perfect) but it seems that they had to shoot most of Coruscant in real places to save money, and when they do, it just pulled me out. (Syril's mom's apartment complex looks like an Earth parking garage, another place looks like a normal city street, complete with Earth concrete) I know this is a nitpick, but that just goes to show how good the show is that THIS is my biggest issue. My hope is that season 2 had a higher budget and Andor will look as good as can be. Sorry for my tangent
Thrawn looks incompetent - how can they do this to us
i think the new canon thrawn books did a better job than rebels and ashoka but that because zahn wrote those books its only to bad zahn is a sell out but i guess that can be forgiven since he didn´t ruined thrawn in the new canon books but maybe he is not a sell out maybe he just didn´t wanna bash disney because he was under disney contract to write thrawn books for the new canon so he lied about filoni version being great
How is Zahn a sellout? He wrote amazing canon Thrawn books and tries to make the character as good as possible
Learn punctuation, and English
Dave Filoni ruined the Clone Wars Multimedia Project, he ruined Barriss Offee, Quinlan Vos, Assajj Ventress, the relationship of Anakin and Obi Wan, Darth Maul, the Clone Troopers, the Mandalorians, Admiral Thrawn, and whatnot
Don't forget Dooku, Grievous and Anakin. He constantly takes interesting characters and nerfs them to make his own characters look better by default. Whenever Ahsoka is around the characters just get dumbed down because god forbit his golden child loses or is weaker by comparison. Dooku & Grievous became shallow Sunday Morning cartoon villains, Anakin became this incompetent macho dude who can't do anything right because plot, Thrawn became a joke. Dave was never a good writer, the issues were present during TCW and became more obvious in his recent stuff.
I agree with everything stated, the only time I am not so critical of Disney Thrawn is Rebels season 3.
First reason its a show aimed for younger audiences so I understand if his plans are going to be simpler.
Two although it is stupid to let the enemy get away to find the location of the rebel base, I always looked at it as Thrawn is younger and less experienced and is trying to understand his enemies so that he can wipe them out in one fell swoop.
Three Plot armor, one thing I really hated in Rebels was the Insane amounts of plot armor.
Other than that Season 4 Thrawn should have been playing the Rebels like a Flute, forcing the Rebels to make decisions that would lead to there downfall in the long run.
Edit:And yes Thrawn should never have lost the battle in the season 3 Finally
Also, in season 3, his plan worked. He narrowed down exactly where they were, took his fleet and would have captured them all. He only didn't kill them because Tarkin ordered him not to. The Mandalorians only showed up because Constantine disobeyed orders because he was more concerned about glory in battle than victory.
The failures of Thrawn in season 3 were always things he couldn't control, such as Constantine disobeying a direct order or being ordered himself to NOT kill them all. There was also no way for him to account for the Bendu.
His letting them go over and over is what got them to gather their fleets in the first place. They got pilots, they got the plans for the shielded tie-fighters, they stole ships and their confidence was built up to such a degree that they felt confident preparing a large force all the while he figured out where they were. He overwhelmingly won that battle and the rebels just got out by the skin of their teeth, and the heroes were COMPETENT while doing it.
Why does the live action thrawn look like Elon Musk.
Thrawn was good in Rebels and he actually tried to take out Phoenix squadron and the Spectors however imbeciles like Admiral Constantine and Governor Price interfered with his plans like on Atallon where he nearly wiped out the rebels until Constantine fell for Sato's plan and destroyed a interdictor... Yeah I now see about why was Constantine given control of a interdictor and not a ISD because if that happened then Ezra wouldn't have been able to escape and then Thrawn would've won the war in the Lothal sector
Don’t worry you’ll get it when you’re older :)
Dude. Star Wars is dead and a person who isn’t smart can’t write a smart villain. Sorry to drop reality on you but you know I’m not lying.
I'm gonna be honest. Filoni didn't ruin Thrawn in my opinion. Zahn did. Yeah, I said it. Because here's the thing - you can absolutely have a character that's good at what they do. Unparalleled, even. In a lot of cases that's what makes a good villain since it adds narrative tension to the story, and it can even be necessary. That said.... there is a very, very fine line between making a hypercompetent villain and a Villain Sue. No one likes the latter. At that point losses in the story aren't dictated by the character being incredibly good at their job, it feels more like a Diabolos ex Machina... and that's what Thrawn turned into with Zahn saying one simple thing in an interview, something along the lines of "Thrawn can't be beaten in a fair fight", thus the only way for him to die being a surprise assassination. Which... no, I'm sorry but at that point it's lazy writing. That's not a case of a clever solution or characters learning from their mistakes. At that point your protagonists have lost all agency and the writer basically has to step in and fix the problem - it is always the mark of bad writing when characters can undergo their journeys only for it to ultimately have no impact on a major part of the plot, sole exceptions being grimdark and cosmic horror where that's the entire point of the genre.
Thrawn as an idea is an amazing character. But even his original writer massively dropped the ball with that mindset since it reduced him to a plot device and one that the protagonists had no ability to influence or affect.
the prequels are good even without the clone wars the prequels didn´t have issues its the haters who like to nitpick and filoni who is a prequel hater in disguise choose to please the prequel haters.anakin and obi-wan relationship in episode 2 doesn´t contratict what obi-wan said in episode 4.friends also get mad at one another and you can tell the first time they appeared in episode 2 that they are friends.just because anakin and obi-wan relationship wasn´t perfect in episode 2 doesn´t mean they weren´t friends
Oh please I like the prequels but they had many issues Hayden Christian’s was really bad in episode 2 better in episode 3 I couldn’t believe his and padmes relationship plus Jar Jar was a bad character overall George Lucus is good when he’s giving uses but not fully in control the reason the original trilogy is great is because George lucus had people telling him no he when it comes to creating premise is great but when it comes to filling in the worlds I don’t feel like he is a good example is in the documentary disturbance in the force which is about they Star Wars holiday special the people making the holiday special met with George once and he told them what he called secret information and here is what he told them the reason Han Solo can understand Wookis language is because he was married to a wooki I’m not joking that is what he told them
I agree that the prequels are good without TCW and am tired of the old argument. But I don't consider Filoni to be a prequel hater, whatever his other faults, and most of the changes you hate in TCW were ordered by Lucas himself. I think TCW is flawed but good overall, and the prequels' biggest problem was that the story was too big for 3 movies. Lucas managed to pull it off anyway, just proving how good of a writer he is, but having more story would improve them even more. This is why Lucas created TCW in the first place. So I think the prequels are already good without TCW, but TCW makes them better, not worse
@@Andrew-of8uq The "George was better when he wasn't in control" and "yes men" thing is largely a myth
Damn you are speaking facts
There's a trick to writing characters smarter than you. Disney doesn't have any of those writers, unfortunately. If you want more of REAL Thrawn, read Zahn's Ascendency novels and prequels novels. Shows how Thrawn came to be.
why you agree with the prequel haters?are you one of them?
Viewers/readers should not need to bend over backwards to justify the actions of a character when they do not give enough reason to trust that character in the first place.
Thrawn's strategies and tactics were just laughably bad, you could just have a random RTS player taking his job and they would be 10 times more effective than he is.
Yes, yes this all it takes to satisfy surface level Star Wars fans. I remember when this sphere of the lore was niche and a character like Thrawn and others were part of the in depth lore you had to dive into. Now is nothing more than a showpiece to be wasted as a gimmick. Thats all Star Wars is now and the people helming it arent interested in that kind of deep Star Wars that existed prior to 2012 apart from what they can cherry pick to prop up their failing ip. Star Wars is dead, but what good their is of it is within the old tomes from those good times
I've not cared for anything Filoni has done with Star Wars outside of the 2008 Clone Wars animated show (and keep in mind, he worked under both George Lucas's creative vision and guidance, plus much more talented writers). Even though I fully admit that Clone Wars is far from perfect. Everything else he's done from Rebels, the Mandalorian and the Ahsoka show (who honestly should have just stayed dead by the end of the 2nd season of Rebels) I have not watched or have any interest in the slightest for. Then again, that's largely due to the fact the Mary Rey Sue Palpatine trilogy forever killed off my interest for modern Star Wars crap under Disney.
you can dislike the prequels but the prequels don´t have issues
I’m sorry what there are so many flaws in the prequels
@@Andrew-of8uq Flaws like?
@@officialmonarchmusic the terrible dialogue of Hayden Christian in attack of the clones how Obi Wan doesn’t recognize R2 or 3PO how Yoda isn’t obi Wans master I enjoy the 2 of the 3 prequels I’m not a hater I just don’t have to deny flaws I can appreciate a film and acknowledge the problems with a film