A Return to Cosmic Christianity | with Bishop Barron
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- Опубліковано 4 чер 2024
- Most viewers would need no introduction to Bishop Robert Barron. He is a the Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles in the Catholic Church. He's also an author, speaker, theologian, and founder of Word on Fire, a global media ministry.
I finally had the opportunity to talk with him in the wake of the recent "Four Horsemen of Meaning" discussion on Jordan Peterson's channel (linked below). We discuss the current opening up in culture and return to topics like meaning and the more mystical and participative aspects of Christianity. The problems of atheism, iconoclasm, social justice, ethics, the critical historical approach to religion, addiction and finally the church fathers that have inspired us.
- The Four Horsemen of Meaning discussion with Jordan Peterson, Bishop Barron, John Vervaeke and Jonathan Pageau: • The 4 Horsemen of Mean...
- Jordan Peterson, God, and Christianity | with Christopher Kaczor and Matthew Petrusek: • Jordan Peterson, God, ...
Bishop Barron's work:
- Word on Fire website: www.wordonfire.org/
- Bishop Barron UA-cam: / wordonfirevideo
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Timestamps:
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:01:06 - The Four Horsemen of Meaning discussion
00:03:10 - The cleansing capacity of atheists
00:06:20 - Postmodernism opened doors about narrative
00:09:04 - The critical historical approach VS Worldbuilding
00:11:19 - Outbreaks of iconoclasm / Architecture
00:20:17 - Do Orthodox people understand this more?
00:21:29 - Returning to the cosmic liturgy
00:22:50 - The liturgy war: worship VS ethics
00:26:14 - Without worship we're open to corruption
00:27:13 - The master theme of the Bible
00:29:45 - The church VS the culture
00:31:05 - Addiction is also liturgical
00:34:07 - What do we worship?
00:38:08 - There is hope for a change in culture
00:42:04 - Back to bad church architecture
00:45:17 - Social justice without the mystical
00:49:59 - The author of Revelation & psychedelics
00:51:08 - Who's your go-to Eastern father?
00:56:52 - Bishop Barron talking about Jordan Peterson
00:59:04 - Outro
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My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson.
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I'm glad to be young during this rejuvenation of Christianity. I hope it lasts and I hope I can contribute to it somehow.
In a way(as a gen z) I hate it. Once or twice a year I go through very dark, depression. I think this due to society and modern philosophers and scientists. It's hard, going through one of those spells currently actually.
But if I can see a fully rejuvenation of Christianity, that would be so awesome(worthy of awe)
Here I am in my mid 70s, always an active Catholic, and I always absolutely amazed at the influx of young college age students and young families in my parish. I believe they are attracted to the young priests we have. These priests are so intelligent and orthodox as are the young people they attract.
Never forget how deep are the riches in the words of the Gospel, in the Fathers, in the saints, and in so many contemporary thinkers. The Spirit has always moved in the Church and - I would argue - in the arts and philosophy. Investigate deeply the works of the human spirit throughout time. Drink at the wells of the Spirit in every form. Cause for encouragement, cause for hope, is superabundant. Praise the fathomless grace of the Lord! 🙏
Lets keep it going
Likewise!
So cool that you and the bishop continue the horsemen of meaning conversation. Man you are spoiling us Jonathan! Thank you so much for your work! Hope for more civilised Catholic and Orthodox conversations like this, it gives us hope!
BB makes a good point here. I agree that Christianity is about the ethics, it is to put truth and love above all else. Everything else is not needed. I’d like to add that The Lord Jesus Christ should be referred to as such.
Barron is anything but Orthodox!
@@buzzledoux7572 Who said he was?
@@RickSanchez-vi1jr Is this a troll lol
@Link 101 Dear People: Listen to Fr. Mark Goring. He is 1000 times better then Fr. Barron
BB has single-handedly opened the door to Catholicism for this stodgy young atheist. I love his videos and his teddy-bear personality. Great to see him dialoguing with greats like Pageau and Peterson and Vervaeke. The Four Horsemen of Meaning has an awesome ring to it. What a great counter to the horrid New Atheism moniker from last decade.
I was atheist for about 20 years until JBP broke my mind open. That lead to JP & BB .
Be Christian, not Catholic. The Jesuits and the Vatican are the rulers of evil.
@Tomás it makes perfect sense. On could be Christian (i.e., Protestant, Orthodox, etc) and not Catholic. Bless your heart.
Yeah, I discovered Sam Harris and the New Atheists back in like 2011 and I still follow and respect Sam Harris, but in the last few years, it's really dawned on me more and more just what a dead-end the New Atheist project is.
@@Pheer777 Same, I went through my hardcore atheist phase in my teens and early twenties.
I think the thing struck me the most, looking back, was just how miserable my atheism made me. It was rooted in antagonism, in skepticism and negativity. I spent so much time belittling belief that it never occurred to me that my belief was in belittling.
I don’t really know where I stand today. But I know what I stand against.
Now I can't keep up! Glad UA-cam stores these things :) Glad this happened.
Just read my comments, Paul. I’m cliff noting and explaining the important stuff. ;)
Paul!! I have been watching your comments on these brilliant men from your channel! Thank you for bringing these ideas from the protestant perspective.
I am 52 and you guys saved my Spiritual Life
As a catholic I love entering an Orthodox Church much more than in our modern churches and I see the way they behave in their churches transmits the sense of sacred which we lost
A sense of reverence and the sacred is not found in the nondenominational churches of today. I love the Old Cathedrals where you feel you are in the Kingdom of God, surrounded by the Angels and the Church fathers.. Folding chairs and cloth banners don't do it for me.
I'm an Inquirer into Greek Orthodoxy, been protestant my entire life. I became disenchanted with American evangelicalism and wanted a deeper, more meaningful understanding of Christianity. Its been 2 months and I'm going to my first Divine Liturgy on Sunday!
@@fahn777 I love the Vespers. Beautiful sacred music. They preach Christ and I never heard anything heretical. I inquired but got stuck on Baptism in a conversation with a Bishop. Still, I might have gone there regularly but my wife could not tolerate people kissing the Priests robes as he walked by. But it was such a pleasant and reverent experience.
Orthodox = Virgin Worship (Zion)
Modern = Whore Worship (Babylon)
The liturgy is nice.
- SHRININGSUN, Global Ambassador of Zion
'Everyone is worshipping Baal' based Bishop. This was a high quality interviewee, very knowledgeable.
Baal's influence comes in many ways. Especially to those who think they are the "gate keepers" of the faith and the holier-than-thou attitude...check under your bed before you judge others.
Bishop Barron was harsh but true here.
@@passiveaction
People are same as they have always been. Only the technology has changed. We don'r need to go overdramatic during these times today. Be bold, free and don't worry! All we have to do is fall down on our knees before Christ and all this around us suddenly changes from "massive problem that will wipe us all out" to "just another crisis".
@@clattereffect True, i had never seen myself as a baal worshiper when reading those passages in the bible before this talk. Normally we see ourselves as the heroic israelis rather than the ones that fall into idolatry. It's a mistake...
If he was that smart he wouldn't be catholic
I’m an evangelical pastor who pastors in an old Orthodox Roman Catholic Church building. I look at the old photos of the church and mourn the loss off the beauty of the spiritual art work that was painted over. I also deeply appreciate the cathedrals of Europe the beauty of the creative church space needs to be restored. Another thought as to spiritual art is that it also helped the largely illiterate masses to visualize the biblical stories through the centuries. Thank you for the the great conversation. I love this cross Christian dialogue.
Attend a Latin Mass thru the FSSP
Don't waste your time with The Latin Mass, It is beautiful but still not same as The Earliest Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom.
The Roman Catholics went astray, I feel sorry for Traditional Roman Catholics even if they are wonderful people they still believe novelties and heresies.
The Papacy is not right.
Come to the True Faith, True Worship The Orthodox Christian Church.
@@agrikantus9422 Christ is risen indeed. May the blessed holy Theotokos save us!
@@agrikantus9422if you read the first 6 ecumenical councils you will see that the eastern church did indeed accept the papacy and the primacy of the bishop of Rome.
Great comment. We need to rediscover and incorporate beauty art and Christian symbolism into our places of worship. It’s such a transformative experience any time I walk into a beautiful cathedral. I pray that one day I will be able to help build something like this in the US to help bring people closer to God.
Bishop, as a new Catholic who was led to the Church through lessons from Jonathan, I was very heartened to hear your thoughts in this conversation.
Thank you.
Let’s hope the church continues to wake up to these things.
Same story here, Cord. Really looking forward to God's Dog!
"The church" you refer to will never wake up because it is dead. It is a figment of Modernists' imagination, super-imposed on a spiritually-asleep flock of sheep who do not know the Master's voice.
The Catholic Church consists of those who know the Master's voice, believes what the Master teaches, and does what the Master does. They are awake, alive, and very much despised by the world, just as the Master was and is despised.
@@elinelcrat8272 As a Catholic I would say this is also true of all the apostolic churches. Syro-Malabar, Orthodox, etc. Those with valid sacraments.
Welcom home brother, God bless you...
@@lauragiles5193 I agree, they are really similar to Catholicism.
Coming from a mostly southern baptist background, I’ve been overwhelmingly attracted the past few years to the seemingly more passionate and heartfelt worship and loving kindness of Catholic and Orthodox believers. Thank you both so much for your obedience and outward representation of love for God.
Happy to hear it, cuz! This is YOUR inheritance too. You don’t have to give up your beautiful personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It will only deepen as you move further in. May God’s will be done in your life.
@@josephjones4331 Roman Catholicism went astray , Eastern Orthodoxy kept the faith and the gates of hell didn't prevail against it.
You clearly are some non denominational ignorant.
Your sola Scriptura and sola fide is a progressive liberal Invention.
You know nothing about Church history, only protestant propaganda.
I don't disagree about Rome, they went astray but Christ did found One True and Apostolic Church.
You don't even understand things like apostolic succession cause you trapped in your American protestant bubble.
Before you make such big claims learn History and ask yourself how can your modern view on Christianity be right?
When did the Christian get it right? After 15 centuries? After 18 centuries? When you have all this mushrooms appearing in America , all this protestant heretical sects.
Give me a break , you are a bible worshiper, you don't worship The Living Word of God but the books about Him.
Stop making yourself look as a fool and learn Church history and read The Early Fathers.
@@agrikantus9422
How long did the Israelites continue under the rule of first the Babylonians and then the Pharisees?
And how long did the people of the northern kingdom continue in their divorce from God?
So what does a few centuries have to do with proving a thing?
It happened before that in Egypt as well. And the people came out of those bondages and back to the true path. Away from corrupt teachings of "priests who are justified in themselves". Can you really say that the church fathers' teachings to worshippers to pray to Mary and saints and angels are any different than the corruptions of the true faith that happened during the sojourn in Egypt or under the rule of the corrupt Pharisees?
Again, those periods lasted for hundreds of years at a stretch. How like an myopic man to point to a few centuries as a justification of authority when God is eternal and has no need for counting time. 15 centuries isn't even as two days to God.
The living word of God comes from those who do their best to keep to the PURE water.
Perhaps you should read Ezekiel and his lamentations toward Pharoh. Pharoh was as great whale, but he put his feet into the waters and muddied them. For this Pharoh was cursed. That great whale had his body caught up in a net and his flesh spread over the mountains and the valleys were filled with it.
Pharoh was cursed that the fish in the river would stick to his scales.
So, tell me. Do you understand the meaning of these words?
Can you explain what Ezekiel meant when he wrote these things?
The explanation is quite plain to tell if you know it.
So?
What does the living word tell you?
Let this be a test of your claim.
Let your testimony speak.
Maybe then we can talk about the northern kingdom and Jeremiah's comments on divorce.
And the Mosiac Laws in that regard and the fulfillment of that specific tenant of the law that Jesus fulfilled.
Do you care to have a discussion?
Maybe we can learn from one another.
@@josephjones5070 Bible does not say that you need Sola Scriptura, fro 200 years after Jesus ascended to heaven, scriptures ware not yeat combined together. How did they worship God and kept the faith?
Only few letters sent to Churches, do you think it was enough? But Saint Paul went to them and taught them.
If I can't trust apostolic succession witch are disciples of the twelve apostles then how can I believe Christianity is true at all?
If there was no coherency from then begging how do you know that they doctrines you hold on to are true?
I can I understand the ancient people more them those who ware closer to that time?
If I have a blueprint to make a BMW and try to make it myself I might get it wrong , but if go to the source they will teach me properly.
How can you trust the bible, how do we know is true? if we doubt The Church and their writings and the Canon The Church established established ,then there was no real revelation and everything is relative , there is no absolute truth and your specific denomination is just personal preference and opinion.
@@agrikantus9422
Also, your appeal to history is just another misdirection away from the Word of God.
Are you suggesting with your blasphemous "sola scriptura" denial that the Word of God is insufficient?
Are you suggesting that Jesus came and removed the need for the preisthood so that we could once again be subject under preists? There is a good reason that God made such a huge sacrifice and in the process removed the need for such.
And yet, even after Jesus gave up the ghost and the Holy of Holies was opened up forever, the Pharisees still pretended to power for nearly a century afterward. They hid the fact that the veil had been rent in two so that they could hold on to their power.
So what is different today with the church? The preists have their holy altar that is kept away from the people on a pedestal. They are the ones needed to bless and confess. It is a return to the way that had always lead to the corruption of the true water by men who came to value their position over Truth. To go back to such is to lose sight of the sacrifice that was made to free us from that corrupting system.
So, who are these men that claim to be mediators between man and God? Taking the place of the one and only Son of the Almighty? Telling their lost sheep to pray to men and blaspheming God in the process. Worshipping the creation instead of the Creator.
Tell me, when Jesus was asked how we should pray, what example did He give?
Did He say to pray to Abraham or Moses?
Do those in Orthodoxy pray to Abraham or Moses? And why not? Surely they were much greater than any of the saints of the church...
You see, when one strays from the Word, there is no end to the division of the river into the labrynith meander of the muddied alluvial plain... The splitting of the waters into separate rivers. Again, from Ezekiel.
The Word of God is sufficient and we need no man to give it. All knowledge, guidance, and wisdom comes from God. And we do not need an mortal interpreter to understand His will.
I do agree with you that the spoken word is incredibly important in the transmission of the Living Word. But when it strays from the teachings in the Bible through extravagant interpretation and outright contradiction, then it is no longer The Word. The church fathers should take a note from John the Baptist. He understood that his way was nothing compared to what was coming. And the church fathers should have the same stance. This denegration of sola scriptura is an unholy departure from the understanding that John the Baptist had.
So grateful for Bishop Barron and Jonathan Pageau. I'm in my mid 20's in Australia and I feel like my generation/culture lacks so much meaning
I can not put into words how excited I am to watch this
Agreed
just dont be pumped or experience muscle pasms
You just did. This need to beat people over the head with their emotionality in a veiled attempt to convince the self, others, and God of how in tune to truth they are just makes people sound weak. Stop saying things that make you weak. Now, if only Peterson would heed his own advice because since he's come back from illness almost all I hear from him is saying things that make him weak.
The Four Horsemen of Meaning would be an incredible weekly podcast. I would pay to listen to you guys discuss every week or month. 😂😂 Thanks Jonathan and Bishop Barron for all you do. I love you all so much! God bless🙏☦️
I second this proposal ☝️😃
I suspect monthly would be more likely, but even then that would be fantastic.
If I was dying of cancer and had a "make a wish" I am not exaggerating that my first request would be for the 4 horsemen to tour the world having these dialogos together!!
If the philosophers of the past were alive today THIS is where they would be.
Dear Pageau, Bishop, Peterson, Vervaeke. Please forsake whatever else would steal you from exploring these things together. You have been the access point for us to set our minds on things above. We need more of this!!
That’s sad
Amen
Bring on the meaning-pocalypse!
What's up Tom. Would you mind checking out a video I just made? I think Jonathan Pageau indirectly did a symbolic explanation of this popular video game "Little Nightmares 2" here's a link to the video: youtu.be/7kBL65
Jordan and Camille Paglia's discussion was instrumental in breaking me of my militant atheism, feminism, and satanism, bringing me back to the Catholic Church. I idolized the "Four Horsemen of Atheism." However, I have since graduated onto E. Michael Jones, Fr. Ripperger, Robert Sungenis, and Archbishop Vigano for guidance in these troubling times, outside of prayer, the TLM, and the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, of course.
I know what you mean, those names are more hardcore and do not shy away
Utterly based list
Lol going from satanism to Catholicism. Not that much of a difference tbh
You were on the right path, but then Ripperger and Viganò?
You've taken a wrong turning mate, it will lead you over the cliff.
It's the path of the anti-Church that pretends to be the true Church.
Yes. Ripperger and Vigano are defending the TRUTH of the Holy, Catholic and apostolic church. Do not leave their wisdom and guidance. Watch all you can on Venerable Archbishop Sheen. God bless you.
I am a 26 year old High School Theology Teacher in Ohio. I teach scripture and Jordan Peterson has become the backbone of my teaching, and Barron, I cannot thank you enough for the quality resources that you have given us to teach true, mystical, moral, beautiful Catholicism. I will say, the historical-critical and sjw strains of Catholicism are still very present in the schools. I know what many young theology teachers are coming from the seminaries, which have been fed by both of your influences, but many come from the mission-trip-minded world (where environmentalism and immigration are King, not Christ). I have been fed so well by what all of you are doing, and while I probably won't be showing these lectures in class (sorry, you guys are incredibly boring to teenagers in the classroom setting) I will absolutely be teaching everything I have been hearing. Thank you to both of you.
ua-cam.com/video/kskWiUrdlRc/v-deo.html
Pathetic that you are polluting young minds with the excrement spewed out by an apostate like Barron! Your soul is at stake teach! The Traditional Church before Vatican II is the true Catholic Church. You seriously teach that all souls go to heaven and that Jesus is the “preferred” way and not the only way to heaven? Words of Barron the fake priest!
Keep feeding the young minds of your students, God bless your work in Christ Jesus, son of God🙏🏻
I was raised in the same era of Catholicism as you, Bishop Barron and was basically left to figure it all out on my own. I never left because, for some reason I intuited something that was much deeper than I, in my simplicity could comprehend, let alone express with words. I also sensed the flattening out that you have spoken of and knew that was the reason many Catholics were leaving. We were abandoning our own sacred traditions!
Our parish recently built a new Church, replacing a stale, flattened out one and it is absolutely steeped in beauty and symbolism. It seems to me that it is now a place in space and time where we can come together as a community and direct our attention towards right worship at a cosmic, universal level, with God our creator as the source of all that is.
Thank you both for working to educate the remnant so we can finally begin to put into words what we have deeply felt for many, many years!
The church has failed in teaching us..we should hold them accountable for there failings..
@@zacharypayne4080 Jesus will.
@@zacharypayne4080 i agree with you in some sense. But there still soo many priest and bishop who really good shepherd...
@@zacharypayne4080 God will judge. Thank Him for these Brothers.
Thanks Guys, wonderful podcast. As a extreme wandering Catholic ( spiritually and physically) and 'felt misfit' , it took lockdown, rioting, iconoclasm and world Pandemic to point the way you two through Mooji, Peterson and a plethora of online "nudges". It's a cold wet winters day here in Northern Ireland and your conversation is hugging me like a warm hot chocolate. It was soo easy over the last two years to be swept away by the ongoing mayhem and your spiritual conversation provides a rich tapestry of meaning in contrast to an otherwise banal, materialist world. Please God he will bless you two with the continual grace in your efforts in rekindling the flame of our self- evidential, famished spirits .💜
Praying for you to be freed from the Mooji influence...
Exact same here, this virus Insanity from the beginning was the real big trigger for me. Both Jordan and father Mike Schmitz we're the ones that reeled me back to my faith. If you haven't heard of father Mike, is highly recommend going to their channel ascension presents. Listen to his homilies from mass on Sundays. They're great.
Amen, Love from Quebec.
Is Peterson a Catholic? He sounds like an Oreginist to me. If even that.
Origen is the greatest genius the Church has ever produced, East or West. All the Fathers of the East worth noting were ‘Origenists’, at least until Jerome’s character assassination of him set the ball rolling towards ‘Origenist’ being a slur. He is THE teacher of the Fathers. The justification for including the Pauline and non-Pauline epistles in the canon is thanks to Origen providing the rationale for why they should be considered as Scripture. His influence and contributions don’t stop at that. The collective wisdom of the Fathers has the foundation built by Origen undergirding it. Augustine is seen as prolific because his writings have been well preserved. Origen left everyone else in the dust when it came to output. Jerome catalogued only 900 of the books authored by Origen but the true count is estimated to be 4-6000. All the Apostolic churches are Origenist to some extent or the other. Else, we would be like fundamentalist literalists who believe that the Earth is
So glad Bishop Barron has finally given an interview on The symbolic world ✝️☦️
My faith has been strengthened by this conversation. God bless you both.
pp
ppppp
@@passiveaction orthodox Christian and catholic can talk to each other that can be a nice thing. But in there belief is an ontologicall difference .what one see as Deity _energies of God ,the other see it as something created...
I thank our Lord for being able to watch both lungs of The Church breathing together, in this talk!
unity please
The Church is the full Body of Christ, not a pair of lungs
@@timadamson4713 I'm just paraphrasing Saint John Paul II to make a charitable comment about this wholesome reunion.
But hey, if you wanna turn this into a pointless doctrinal discussion, by all means, do it. I will just absent myself from now on.
@@thomazprimoalves7025 you think discussing the Truth of the Churches' doctrine is pointless while holding to Vatican 2 epithets? Wow, this talk of "reunion" truely is a delusion of the enemy and will only reflect a false unity. All the while Orthodox are "too extreme" as they attempt to hold to the Truth of Christ, as if he's incarnation wasnt extreme and a human fraternity under the Pope is what he taught...... Incredible. Thanks for being consistent and bowing out as there is no dialogue under this pretense
@Tomás it sound like you think the Church has lost its unity or its way. Christ's Church has not fallen and it's fullness is in the Orthodox Church, which even the Vatican admits. True Reunion in the Church is for all Christians to return to her, not pretending that schisms didn't happen or that Truth is not important
Pageau at 26:29
"...the first you give up to God, and then you care for the poor. Those are not opposites, right, they don't contradict each other. Actually, one leads to the other. Because if you just create a kind of social justice mesh or this kind of social justice thing, it becomes
totally open to corruption.
If you dont have the highest ideal first, then, the other thing becomes a system. And I've seen it, I've worked in Africa and kind of charity work for several years and some of it was just monstrous. Just because you give money doesnt mean that it does what you think it does. If all your attention isn't oriented to something which is actually judging you, people hate to hear that, but judging you in the sense that it's the ultimate good to which you're looking, then the rest will fall apart at some point."
This struck me so much and I had to listen to it a couple of times to really process it because there are really so many applications. I had a college professor about 10 years ago who was a physician from Romania. He told us that the reason communism doesn't work and is always twisted is because it's what happens when you try to do things without Christ. This also got me thinking about the nursing profession, since I am a nurse, and what it looks like to try to care for people and have integrity without believing in God or the image of Christ in that person. A lot to think about. I'm sure I'll come back to this concept often.
Are you Romanian?
@@catalintican5530 No, but I have a lot of love for the Romanian people :) I have some Greek ethnicity and the school I attended was a Greek Orthodox college in Boston. Dr. Mugur Roz was the teacher I referred to. I also had a Romanian psychology instructor, and my Biblical Heritage professor was Dr Eugene Pentiuc. All wonderful.
@@deepwildviolet all the best wishes to you and the Greek people!
Jonathan, we're having a synod in the Catholic Church right now. What I'm going to do is send this very video to every bishop I get the email address of.
This synod makes me worried. The revolutionaries will exploit this to the maximum extent...
@@antoniocavalcanti1627 Yes, we all fear that. But I have a strange hope that its sword could be redirected the other way and what was supposed to destroy will now heal.
No more councils or synods please. Last one was a disaster.
@@cjryan4097 It's a chance to make it straight...
@C&M K it allowed Pope Francis and liberal bishops.
Great conversation!
12:00 “God made an icon of himself… in Christ” Powerful!
I'm an atheist and I would definitely go to their church. The church is "the deepest value, worship, attention".
I feel like this could be a left and right side brain thing?
Thank you both for this. I'm still growing even at 40. 🙏❤️🙏
What are you growing to if you’re an atheist? I mean how are you growing and how do you know what growth is? What are you growing to?
@@DF-ei9kc to know God in the fullest.
@@jgarciajr82 Before "to know" of a god/s can be ascertained.
First a god/s needs to be demonstrated. Until then atheist/agnostic is the default position.
@@giuseppesavaglio8136 "demonstration" barely exists. There are very few things that you can "demonstrate" in the sense you talk about, and yet you believe them.
@@m.j.v.4463I beg to differ the world/universe we live in is demonstrable (some things (a lot) not understood, yes). People hide behind
"demonstration" barely exists, when they want to allow god/s to exist, unchallenged. Not this little black duck.
The desert mothers and fathers opened myself up as a catholic to understand the mystical experience. I am greatful to the intellect being included.Mary and her love for her son,engaged me as a woman.This talk is giving me hope.I have always thought addiction or OCD was a lack of ritual and prayer to God.
ua-cam.com/video/kskWiUrdlRc/v-deo.html
Perfect blend for meaningful conversation. You’re right about the much needed cleansing effect of the New Atheists. Please don’t waste this opportunity to awaken your broader Churches Hierarchy. The Lambs are here waiting, hoping, longing. It’s the institutions turn now. It’s time to act!
Thank you gentlemen!
@@passiveaction Dear People: You need to listen to the wonderful; Fr. Mark Goring! He is 1000 times better then Fr. Barron. The Church doesn't need some one that make up the rules as we go along
@@numap4701 I might say the same to you and Fr Mark Goring’s followers! Listen to Bishop Barron! Never heard of Goring but I guess he needs to come to a Holy Man’s following to get attention!
I can assure you, that Bishop Barron never sent people out to denigrate others!
Never heard of Goring but from your witness, I have no interest! If he creates trolls like you, then he is worthless!
Thank you for your witness to untruth!!
@@bobharbert1844 Who wrote this? You or your dog??? Most likely the dog
The Catholic Church must spring back all the tradition. it embues our faith. It ignites our soul and awakens our senses to GOD!
ua-cam.com/video/kskWiUrdlRc/v-deo.html
My mind has been blown and I haven't even started watching.
⚘⚘⚘🌹⚘⚘⚘
Great discussion. The importance of Jordan Peterson is that he is not a
"Christian" as some Christians deem wrongly. He risked his career, his reputation, his livelihood, nearly his life, by standing up for free speech and Judeo-Christian values. His reverential approach to the Bible and Christianity is what is making him so influential. He is the ONLY person in the last 10 years of the internet that was able to stem the tide of people leaving Christianity and in fact returning YOUNG people to the Bible.
I think Christians MUST appreciate him as he is. His approach to the Bible is what is leading people back to the Bible.
Praise Jesus is king.
🙏🙏🙏🙏
The guy isn't even a Christian. He is the most over-rated thinker in living memory. The blind are leading the blind
Praying for the Reunification of our Glorious Church with our Orthodox brothers.
We pray for that too! May the Roman church return to being the most Orthodox of all the churches.
Sadly as the Roman Church adopts modern watered down liturgy and protestant like practises it is diverging still.
I wouldn't give up on our Protestant brothers. They love Jesus and they have the Bible. l'm afraid things will continue to get worse before they get better. As someone, I forget who, said after the American Revolution: "We must all hang together; otherwise, we will all hang seperately".
I was married at Notre Dame Church in Southbridge, MA. It is the most amazing internal architecture and art that I’ve ever seen - paintings, gold statues, carvings, gorgeous stained glass, domes and columns - I recommend visiting it. It really immerses you in the reality that God is present, and probably so happy with what he sees.
I came to Catholicism 20 years ago because of the order and rational basis of the theology on the one hand, and the mysticism in which it is steeped on the other. Yet I do find that many Catholics have been unaware of much of its wealth. I do see that starting to change, and programs like are so helpful and so hopeful. Thank you for sharing.
I would never return to the Catholic Church, but I root for Catholics to return to the early RC Church. All Denominations have lost ties to the past, to the early Church fathers and a profound sense of the sacred. We are in a new Covenant and we are brothers and sisters in the Faith.. All who believe are in Christ. A church should reflect the glory of God. It is sacred space. You are on holy ground.
I love the sweet intellectual generosity between you smart, artistic people who point to "right praise"'. Love the Chesteron quote. Instead of doom and gloom we can recognize the the Holy Spirit is in charge here.
Thank you for pushing against psychedelics in the four horsemen conversation. I’ve taken lots of psychedelics in the past and I can confirm that your intuitions on them are correct although you haven’t taken them yourself. Psychedelics pull you apart. Christ puts everything back together.
No, my experience is just the opposite. I felt, and have worked with other people, who have had transformative and 'spiritualizing' responses to psychedelics. For me, it opened my heart and mind to the mystical and Jungian--to the world of meaning.
@@robertobrien5122 The Mystical and Jungian you're Referring to i think is of the Demonic, not the true Mystical Experience found in Eastern Orthodoxy, it's Liturgy, Icons, etc. And Jung is far from an Orthodox saint. Quite the opposite actually.
I don't think the Peterson audience understands what an extraordinary scholar Bishop Barron is. His work is special. I think they just assume he's a religious authority and therfore look past his rich analysis.
I literally just finished watching 2 Pageau's long videos in a row (from JBP channel and the discussion with Benjamin Boyce) and now I get recommended this ... and can't help but watching it immediately. Unexpected Pageau-Binge Day for me:)
when the binge calls it calls
Exactly the same here.......!!
When I walked into Sainte Chapelle in Paris for the first time, I can't even describe the awe I felt. At the same time I felt as if I'd been there before. I attributed that feeling to the beautiful imagery touching my soul. That was 30 years ago yet I still feel that awe today every time I remember it.
Hahah! "End of rant its like a homilie" 😅😆 funny self awareness. When I do that I usally joke that im spesking in tounges, because sometimes I suprise myself with what I say.
The Bishop is Preaching, pay attantion! Loved it! Today I believe you are.. what you said today Bishop, more Bishops and Priests in US and Europe should listen to. Loved it!
Praise be to the Lord, our God!
Peace!
So excited for this conversation. I've been wanting Jonathan and Bishop Barron to talk for a long time. The video on Jordan Peterson's channel was great. Hopefully this is even better.
I echo this sentiment 100% - I’ve wanted this for a long time.
This has been an inspiring follow up conversation to the 4 Horsemen conversation. As an Old Time Lutheran who follows the Conservative Sinod and NOT the New Lutheran Liberalism which to me is Blasphemy personified, I find this conversation with a Catholic Bishop and an Orthodox Christian to be absolutely what we as Christian’s are supposed to emulate. I despise what “churches” have become in their emptiness and long for a return to the feeling of awe mixed with a touch of fear upon entering The Church. Having been educated by Benedictine Nuns and an Old School Priest in a small Texas Hill Country town, I Know what our places of Worship Should Be and they should be places of Reverence. Thank You Gentlemen for this conversation.
I was on holiday in Montreal 5 years ago Jonathan for an amazing 8 days. Rented a bicycle for the week and cycled around everywhere. Sitting in the basilica brought me to tears. It was an overcast day. The sun broke through as I was sitting there....may I have the opportunity to return again.
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Thank you, Jonathan. Amazing talk. To me, Bishop Barron's words have a tremendous gift of encouragement and it is always very fresh. More of these talks/ episodes, Please!
Going from a complete disregard of Christianity living in Canada to (quote Bishop Barron) an "Invasion of Grace" since living here in Ireland, I've been so blessed to experience the Catholic tradition with a fresh breath. And I try to remind myself how fortunate it is to live down the road from what might be the most beautiful cathedral in all of Ireland, St. Coleman's Cathedral in Cobh. Thanks has to be given to Jordan Peterson and John Vervaeke (in particular, Awakening From The Meaning Crisis lecture series). Dia leat/God bless.
My 2 favourite people on the internet. God bless you both!
Now I know why the evangelical presbyterian church I grew up did not take in my adult life. I am a Catholic at heart. Thank you both for your outreach. I am a musician. I used to play music when I got in the car. Music music music. For the past month or so I listen to your podcasts. I can’t get enough of your teachings!
Mark! Become a Catholic! Lead the renewal of sacred music in your parish and let it spread out from there!
One more thing... John Lennox PhD. a Protestant Apologist said when asked what he thought about Dr. Jordon Peterson's Biblical Series replied "more power to him" he said with a smile on his face. As if to know how much influence a simple reading and even a Psychological academic analysis by Dr. Peterson of the Bible would have on anyone who watched. I love Dr. Peterson's work as well.
Jonathan sir you're my Christian Jordan Peterson now haha
Really digging the recent "horsemen of meaning" content. I hope the conversation continues in the coming months and years.
Your lessons on symbols has been the first time I could even begin to somewhat understand religion. It took a huge life stressor to break me down and a lot of your teachings to really build up my faith. I WAS an atheist. Thank you!
When Jordan met Bob he was Checkmated by Gods man who speaks truth. Smart guy talking Bible
I used to think that all the gold adorning the churches should be sold off to help the poor... and then I visited Rome and went into the churches and saw the gold on the ceilings and art and felt the splendor. Now I think all the world's gold should be up on the ceilings of churches where it properly reflects the incorruptible glory of God.
As Jesus said, the poor will always be with you
As for something modern, tibetan, colourful, other-wordly... and genuinely and proudly Biblical and Christian, there you have Gaudí's Sagrada Familia in Barcelona!
Back in the 1920s, when he was still alive, and there was no hint to the present-time massive airline travel habitudes, he used to say, visionary as he was in every aspect: "you'll see, years will pass by and thousands of people will come from everywhere in the world to see what we're doing here!"
I have lived for a long while in Barcelona, and read quite a lot about Sagrada Familia. Delighted to discuss with you about that Jonathan whenever you want !
Again! Again! Part 2. Please! This awesome! Loved every part of it. And the end, with Church Fathers! This is beutiful! This is so great! Loved it. And thank you, Jonathan, for giving plenty of room for the Bishop to let him preach and kind of getting a platform on your show. So much love here. Please more of this.
Great talk. Bishop Barron gets the fundamental issues in this meaning crisis of our time. And Jonathan, I loved the emphasis on the icons in helping you sidestep all the theological arguments. This is a very big deal and a hint in how to actually carry out fruitful dialogue!
I'm at a crossroad. I'm considering attending a Catholic Mass for the first time instead of an Orthodox Christian Divine Liturgy. (I've been to three Divine Liturgies). I know Protestantism/Pentecostal is not the true Church.
Every day I do the Orthodox Morning Prayers, every night I do the Orthodox Evening Prayers. ☦️🕊️Burn incense, light candles in front of the Icons of the Most Holy Theotokos Mary and Jesus Christ Son of God.🕯️ Read the Psalter and the Gospels.☦️ Pray the Jesus prayer with my knotted bracelet🙏. I feel close to the Faith but without baptism I feel incomplete, dirty, and worry about my family suddenly dying without us being baptized. 💔
After finding out that i can not be baptized or receive Communion (I can stand in Communion line and instead ask for a "blessing" and the Church Father makes the sign of the Cross over my bowed head, and Blesses me. Same with my 7 year old son...Then we get a piece of blessed bread "Antidoron" (instead of/in place of the gifts) like everyone else).
One day, while leaving before the lunch, early, the Father was chrismating a baby, and I asked if he would Bless my son. He drew crosses on both of our foreheads.... That's it though.
To be baptized, I must attend every Sunday consistently and wait 1 to 3 years....plus must stay after service to join the other catechumens/inquirers during the Lunch in the basement.... But I'm shy and there is no way I can attend every Sunday.
I'm an adult student, with a semi disabled Husband and we have a 7 year old son who's school is problematic, and every Sunday isn't possible. Not for 1 to 3 years straight. 😔
Would it be cheating to attend a Catholic Church just to be baptized? I still don't know if the Orthodox Christian Church would recognize a Catholic baptism or still not give Communion? 🤔
I am so glad to hear this strong support for the symbolic, eschatological and cosmic dimensions of liturgy. As a member of a religious community formed by Vatican II I am longing for a rediscovery of a richer understanding of liturgy and communal prayer. Our community prayer space was refurbished some years ago as a simple circular room with chairs devoid of religious imagery and liturgical furniture. Thankfully in the last year an icon has managed to find its way into the space. I breathed a huge sigh of relief!
Thank you, Jonathan and Bishop Robert!
Hey, another brazillian!
It is so satisfying to hear the both of you talking and getting along! Somehow it seems like I am witnessing the healing of the entire world, while I am also a part of this healing world. God bless you and all the ones that are listening to you!
Thanks so much Bishop Barron and Jonathan for taking the time for this awesome conversation.
Bishop Barron, you’re right about Jordan Peterson. His sincere approach to the Bible as a source of morality is very communicable for young people who are in search of the right values and a moral and ethical understanding of life. I really admire his childlike honesty as you mentioned and I think it’s very catching. The guy is not pretending anything.
I believe his talks and his discussions can be a beginning for a lot of young or older people to go deeper into their search for the Truth.
I know and I can tell that he will end up being a practicing Christian. God is patient, He can wait and so should we.
Thanks for this discussion. It was very informative as usual.
Excellent conversation, I hope they can talk again soon.
Thanks to our beloved proff JP, I know this two beautiful and awesome human being. They collectively taught me to talk to God in prayer. Because God is listening 🥰🥰🥰🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
Scott Hahn taught me the Revelation richness of the Mass.
I would like to share what I feel when I contemplate, am aware of, 'Christ on the Cross'....the strongest of all feelings....overwhelming sadness and horror. It's hard to describe, in fact.
I find it hard to comprehend how anyone can talk calmly, about a tortured man nailed to a cross who is dying with grace, and especially when in the presence of images of that horrific and miserable scene.
Watching over from old México, representing your Mexican fans Jonathan and also Mr. Bishop Barron from California!! Regardless of the enormous distance that separates us, (not to say anything about the culture and language) we do learn more from you than from almost anybody, anywhere. Scott Hahn led me to Bishop Barron, which in turn led me to J. Peterson. Peterson introduced me to you Johnatan, and here you are having as a guest none other than Bishop Barron. Great stuff. I will be listening to you from the distance an even studying and reflecting on your very valuable words. Did you know that Bishop Barron's boss (the Archbishop of California) is from old México? He is from my hometown!! By the way I love the Rimsky Korsakov Russian Eastern Overture. I wonder if you choose that overture because is connected to the Orthodox tradition? I know that musical piece since i was 15 or 16, and I've always thought it sounds very visual, i think that particular piece of music has a very powerful "storytelling" element to it. To me it's almost evident. Its easy to imagine some sort of "movie plot" while listening to it. I really do feel that the Russian Eastern Overture music from Korsakov is telling a story. I guess the story will be connected to its name obviously. It would be nice to know more about it. Cheers!
I’m listening from Mexico too. I wish I could find this kind of deep conversations in Spanish. I have a small IG account where I take clips like this and put subtitles on them for our fellow hispanohablantes.
@@dctamayo Hola Daniela, no creo que haya un personaje público en México que hable de estos temas en la forma en que ellos lo hacen, y si lo hay me gustaría conocerlo. Estamos dos amigos y yo planeando un podcast en UA-cam, en mi caso personal pienso mas difundir las ideas de que escucho con Pagueau, Peterson, Barron, y otros personajes similares pero sin apropiarme dichas ideas, es decir siempre citándolos y mencionando las fuentes, creo que mucha gente lo puede apreciar dada la barrera del lenguaje. Si te interesa formar parte de esto o simplemente conocer un poco más para que evalúes la idea, o la critíques u opines, me pasas tu correo o whatsapp y hacemos un Zoom. Estoy pensando en un podcast semanal o quincenal y tal vez un blog también, pero siempre comentando y difundiendo el trabajo de las personas antes mencionadas u otras parecidas. No tengo muchas ideas propias, sería deshonesto repetir lo que ellos dicen como si fueran mis ideas, pero creo que no se trata tanto del "mensajero" sino del "mensaje" y es perfectamente posible comentar las ideas que escuchamos de ellos en una mesa redonda en un podcast dándoles el crédito. Saludos desde Mty!!! Haber si me pasas tu cuenta de IG para seguirla por fa.
Hey Luis! Just out of curiosity (my dad was born and grew up in in Fresnillo, Zac) is there an Eastern Orthodox presence there in Mexico?
@@dctamayo My dad was born and grew up in Fresnillo, ZAC, and at 51 I'm trying to brush up my Spanish as I now work in high schools with 90% Mexican kids....I feel like I'm home!
I'm also Eastern Orthodox and love Jonathan Pageau, so I guess this is an odd mix. Is there an Eastern Orthodox presence in Mexico?
@@frankherbert6476 I don’t really know but I guess there must be. I’m Catholic. Most Mexicans are, although protestantism has been growing in the past couple of decades.
"People are now starting to understand - almost technically- the most important thing is what your focusing on". YES. This all that Jordan is doing. He's cutting to the technical core of Catholicism. He's getting into the deep mechanics that are hard to argue with. If the Catholics/Orthodox want to gain ground- they need to be speaking in these terms much, much more. The modern thinking person is technically minded.
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Yes. I'm an agnostic, but this was great. One thing that cannot be overemphasized: a religion should influence the culture (not take it over, but influence it), not the other way around. Yes, the world evolves and things change, but the eternal Truths of the Natural Law (call it the Divine Law if you come at it from a religious perspective, fine) endure and must be upheld no matter what.
They used to burn witches, just to remind
@@konyvnyelv. Yes, "they" did... and?
For what it’s worth I started searching for God partly because of Jordan Peterson’s lectures.
I’ve learned a lot from him, Bishop Barron, and Fr Mike Schmitz.
This world needs a lot of help. God bless you all.
More talks like this together! 🙌🏽
The Meaning Crisis is about iconoclasm and anti-trinitarian theology. Absolutely.
Cosmic vision of the liturgy: I am cradle Orthodox and didn't know until about 5 years ago that we are entering the Kingdom of Heaven in our worship services. I always knew that the Saints are participating with us, but I essentially had it backwards. It is us who are participating with the Saints and the angels. This single fact has completely changed my perception of our Faith. Everything that was confusing about our liturgy has come keenly into focus.
I always say Thank God for Ritual and Tradition. I like knowing that my great grandchildren will worship the same way I do and by all accounts the way all Christians everywhere did for the first 1,000 years.
Great conversation, as a Catholic, God bless our Orthodox brothers and Sisters. I love Orthodox Icons, churches and Liturgy, may the good Lord unite us as Christians... 🙏
You know, I like the "4 horsemen of meaning" rather than the IDW. It has more properties of the light and heralding. IDW is rather dreary.
And it's so spot on too! In our inverted world even the Four Horsemen are inverted.
@@Augass so true! 😂
@Tomás The intellectual dark web
IDW were almost all Jewish
Also IDW sounds mega-cringe, like something a teen would think up after his crush got a boyfriend.
Bishop Barron is not perfect and not beyond criticism. No one is, of course. But the attacks he gets from some trads is just really unfair. The idea that he's some sort of weak pop culture panderer is not based in reality. This man is orthodox and deep and he really cares.
Apt!Thanks, my brother
Again, smart, motivated, spiritual people discussing their faith. It's wonderful to listen. Thanks for having Bishop Barron on as a guest.
My moms old parish in Yankton SD, sacred heart, had a beautiful old church and in the 60’s the bishop had it torn down and a modern church put in its place. The whole parish and town was against it, even non Catholics. They tore it down anyway, and my grandmother took all the stained glass and statues she could to save them from demolition. Her house was filled with life-sized statues of the saints and stacks of stain glass lined the shed wall outside the chicken coop. After she died we donated the statues to the local Catholic college. The stained glass disintegrated. I’m SO heartened and glad to hear this practice criticized, it gives me such hope! God bless
Great conversation. It’s great to see you two together.
Free the Latin Mass from the jailers of tradition!
Though I have not adhered to any religion in my life, it is actually exciting to me to find this energy in the world at present of interest in, and acknowledgement of need for, meaning, the profound and the divine.
I am concerned about many aspects of religions and churches however, and find myself starved of opportunity to communicate with similarly interested folks in the concrete world.
One concern is the historical and continued preponderance of men as vicars and priests, etc.
This needs to change.
One other concern is how 'services' in churches do not reach most people. We need to have many Jordon Petersons giving 'services'.
He does couch the information from the bible in a way that is educative, inspiring, and also entertaining.
In our world full of super entertainments, the latter is important.
A conclusive comment here, from me, is that there can be no sustainable way forward without an emphasis on local community around every individual, and until humanity accepts death as the natural partner of life, and so stops being afraid of death and consequently living to survive at all costs.
The costs are proving to lead to an inevitable lack of survival.
Thank you to you both ~
I absolutely love this!! I believe these kinds of conversations may lead to our church uniting again! 🙏
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Finally, Bishop Barron & an Orthodox person! And the one with Peterson!! The world needs this: richness, perspective, faithfulness, heart, & mind. Next: Barron & Fr. Stephen Damick!!
I'm from Ireland and live in Australia, the thing I miss the most (apart from my family) is the churches and cathedrals. Even the smallest, most rural churches are so beautiful. Thank you both for the work you are doing, you are renewing the beauty in Christianity
I am so glad to have watch you both. When I visited Russia 15 years ago. I had the privilege to visit the home and church of the Russian theologian Alexander Men. I stood at the place where he was murder in the back of the head with an ax. Talk about symbolism… A few days later we took the train to his new found communauté. I prayed for a long time at his tomb in between the old Russian style wooden church on my right and his new erected red brick church on my left adorned with the traditional Russian steeple. The parishioners we meet during our 3 hrs visit we’re all hearts ♥️ ♥️♥️♥️♥️ Father Vladimir who was then the pastor and custodian of his parish after Father Men was murdered, was elderly and frail. I had gone into the old church to see the Holy of Holies and to walk slowly praising the Lord that I was walking on Holy ground embrace with the aroma of bees wax candles and the warm glowing lights of my surrounding. Father Vladimir walks in, behind him a procession was entering the church an open wooden coffin with an elderly man dress in black was totally covered with white fresh chrysanthemum as he laid waiting his final departure surrounded by his mourning family.
He was old, very old and wondered what he actually had lived through…revolution…famine…wars… we left quietly
I then entered the red brick church. It was a dream come through for me. The light when on. It was a church within a compound. The Holy of Holies was adorned with fresh new icons it was bright, delightful, quiet and so inviting to just sit there and to contemplate. Attach to it down the hall was a well equip kitchen, with a dining area adjoint was a large board room. We were invited to visit the rest of the compound, up the straits we went to see Father’s Men private study and his library. Right across was to my surprise a very large room were family comes to gather and children to celebrate and weekly socialize and learn about their faith. It was Father Men contribution to the rebuilding of the Russian Orthodox Church who had suffered so much devastation and persecution.
Afterwards we were invited to share lunch with them. Yes to share our lunch that we had packed for the day and their lunch all went into the middle of the table and we ate. Father Men’s vision was never totally accomplish in the eyes of man and neither his ennemies were victorious. This vibrant communauté was the remnant of the Suffering Orthodox Russian Church fully alive and well. They didn’t have all the answers to what the future was holding for them but they told us that Father Men had told them that when other Christian denominations were to come and visit them what would link us together was the love and devotion to Our Blessed mother.
Writing English is always very difficult for me, so please forgive my sentence structure.
Have a visit to the Lay Apostolate call: www.madonnahouse.com
The founders Catherine Doherty vision was that the East and the West Spirituality needs to breath with both lungs.
God is not finish with us.
Jesus and his Word is more than enough.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it...
There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God...
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."
John 1:1, 3, 5, 9-14, 18
"He (Jesus) has explained Him (God)."
It is, quite simply, Jesus himself. Not "Cosmic Christianity", not the "Church Fathers", not the philosophers, not "Tibetan" church buildings, and not religion. It is, That Person, Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ.
And... Hate to say it but, you didn't mention that Person and his Word, his Gospel even once. I don't get it. What are you talking about?
You are seeing it, Rolando.
These are the same as the Pharisees that mixed the Babylonian religion with the true faith and corrupted themselves to the point where they couldn't see the Truth that was speaking directly to them. The Pharisees added to the Word and made their own judgements as to what it meant. And then those judgments were modified, and then again, and then again. This is known as Talmudism. And the following of the interpretations and re-interpretations, and so on, and so on, of the "church fathers" is the exact same thing. It is Talmudism under a different name.
This is the abomination of desolation that sat in the high place in Second Temple during the time of Jesus' sojourn in the flesh. The Pharisees were teaching Talmudism, or the "traditions of the elders" in the Temple and holding these teachings in equal esteem with the Torah and the writings of the Prophets. This is the spiritual adultery that Jeremiah called out in Judea during his time. And if one actually reads THE WORD and not the interpretations of it by men who called themselves priests, then one finds the theme of adultery is written all over the Old Testament.
Recognizing this theme and what it points to is a key to unlocking a deep understanding of God and of His revelations through the Prophets. It points to the key role that Jesus played in fulfilling the Law of Moses in regard to bringing the divorced northern kingdom of Israel back into a marriage covenant with God. The Law of Moses is the Law of God, given to the Hebrews because of the hardness of their hearts. It had to be codified. Written down. But that line about it being necessary because of the obstinance of the Israelites is not to say that the Law wasn't the eternal Law of God, past, present, and future, forever and ever.
Jesus came to fulfill the Law so that Israel could be re-united with her sister Judah in one body and so that this bride could be redeemed under a new marriage covenant with the Almighty. Divorce. Death of the Husband. The Widow. The law of Death and Three Days. Lazarus and Jesus. These are all keys to understanding the Law of God and how Jesus fulfilled the Law so that all of the Children of Israel, all of the Lost Sheep of the Tribe of Israel could be redeemed and reunited. Neither the Law nor the Prophets were destroyed by Jesus' sacrifice. Rather, they were fulfilled and justified.
Look to the prophets. Look to the stories that center around adultery. Notice that there is a repeated story of two sisters, although they are not always called by the same names. Look to the Law and understand God's ruling on divorce and re-marriage. It is all there. The beginning of much deeper understanding of both Jesus and His antithesis, the Pharisee. The adulterer.
You are right to question these men as they talk about everything except THE WORD. They point to so many distractions away from the THE WORD. They hold up "fathers" in the place of the scriptures. They hold up men who call themselves priests above the "laymen", even though Jesus' sacrifice removed the need for the priesthood and made Israel a nation of priests independent of the Temple (Church). Realize that when Jesus died in the flesh, the veil of the Holy of Holies was rent in two, and yet the Pharisees who were in charge of the Temple acted as if nothing had happened. They did not tell the people, because to do so would mean the end of their authority and power, which they placed above Truth. The adulterous Pharisees held their own teachings above those of God and they hid the Truth for as long as they could before God used the Romans to destroy every last remaining vestige of the Temple, which was the outward symbol of their authority. God took away all ambiguity so that NO ONE could ever again call themselves a priest and use that title to lord over Israel.
And yet, even as Jesus told his Disciples, the spirit of the anti-Christ is already in the world.
I have yet to delve deeply into the writings of the New Testament beyond the Gospels. But based on my limited knowledge at this point, I wonder if the Pauline doctrines and the congregations established under these teachings might have something to do with that statement by Jesus. The Church has always pointed to this line of succession as a keystone of their authority...
But I don't want to make a judgement before reading the books recording the establishment of the Church. As the Bible teaches, for a man to speak on a thing before hearing it, to him it is both a folly and a shame. So, I will hold y judgement for the time being.
God bless and keep you, brother. Always walk in the Spirit of Truth. And always question those whom it bides you to do so. Always question those who hold up THE WORD as the source of their authority, but then proceed to lead people away from the study of it in favor of "interpretations" that seem to contradict it.
27:23 - "If there is a great master theme in the entire Bible, I would say it's Orthodoxy." -Bishop Barron ☦️☦️☦️
That was orthodoxy with a small o (i.e. truth).
With all due respect, I disagree with Barron's view. I think it is a bad emphasis. Someday the overly dogmatic institutional church will figure out that being right was not so terribly important as they had always thought it to be. Rather, modeling God's presence in our lives is more important than espousing specific beliefs or assenting to certain formulations, creeds, or doctrines. Jesus did not come so we could "believe the right things in our heads" but live life abundantly in love.
I knew this interview needed to happen months ago when I first started listening to Bisbop Barren. Awesome show!
This bishop should work in radio
The church needs to adopt what these guys are doing in each dioceses.
It is thrilling to see these two come together and agree on so much.
Excellent!
Spectacular articulation.! Right praise! Right worship.
This corner of Internet = Best corner of Internet. Hoping for continued fruitful conver(z)ations.
What a blessing it is to have this content available for all of us
Thank you for this excellent conversation, Jonathan. You & Bishop Barron have been tremendously influential in my conversion & continual conversion. It seems as if everything is coming to a head in terms of confronting the Meaning Crisis we are currently in. I just started a podcast called ‘Etymos Podcast’ on Spotify about this very topic as well as discussing symbolism, language, & religion. We need more creators discussing this stuff. Thank you, again!
So edifying! Truly enjoyed this and it gave me tremendous food for thought. I’m thankful to the Lord for both of you. Blessings on your ministries.
I remain undecided about Bishop Barron having watched many of his own videos, but I do appreciate this conversation.