I always love the moment where Jonathan just lays his cards on the table and says things like "there is a god behind the internet" or "the ocean has an angel."
Boy oh boy, John and Jonathan are about to start speaking the same language. I look forward to that day when the 2 worlds truely collide, they have never been as close as this and i am enjoying the ride.
I’m Muslim, but my friend (studies Christianity and Buddhism) sent me a link to your video with Jordan and the Bishop. Well my interest was peaked and so I’m now a new subscriber. Excited to hear this.
You can just see how Jonathan's beliefs that we have heard from him many times are being cumulated here and built upon by John. Very great conversation. Now THIS is a psychedelic conversation.
John Vervaeke is amazingly honest and able to use his cog sci framework to grapple at a reality that is ultimately larger. In contrast to someone like Sam Harris who uses his very limited framework to constrain reality in it.
John and Jonathan, These conversations have been the access point for so many of us to set our eyes on things above. I have watched as the insights from your dialogues have played a key role in improving my life. Please continue to have these conversations with each other!
Saw the "Four Horsemen..." as well. Just excellent. As an Orthodox, I am solidly in Mr. Pageau's corner. But Dr. Vervaeke was on fire! Just wonderful. I could listen to these discussions all day. Thank you all.
I hear enormous arrogance and hubris attempting to appropriate God and His angels as some function of human collective intelligence. And at once small mindedness in his inability to acknowledge Presences existing independently of human though.
@@eleventylevity bingo! Once you’ve tasted the experience that “I know NOTHING” touching the hem of His garment in deep prayer, you see that WORDS are not the language that captures the experience of God.
@@borneandayak6725 I wish, but this conversation is happening in a very small corner of the world, relatively speaking. A few million people engaging in this topic is not likely to bring a new age. But there's always hope.
Wow! The convergence of attendance made me think about the Divine Liturgy - all of the senses are activated during the Liturgy - see the beauty of what is happening, touch the icons and the candles, smell the incense, hear the Word of God being sung throughout the entire Liturgy, and it all comes together with the sense of tasting the body and blood of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. And we experience all of this together when we come together at church to worship God together. It is how we trust our experience of God as being Truth. So cool!
On the notion of attention being the thing that rules in and rules out: it occurred to me that the word praise is etymologically related to the word appraise, which means to judge or to qualify, even to catalogue or describe. From the dictionary “assess the value or quality of”, essentially to rule in or rule out.
16:00 There's a guy on UA-cam called MemeAnalysis that does symbolic interpretations of memes. He says the Internet is a DEVOURING MOTHER - ready to give you anything you want but never lets you go. It's the collective anima. What do you think about that?
I really like this. It's no coincidence that the emergence of the collective anima and devouring mother comes about at the same time as the Karen meme.
Attention in worship, paying close attention to the words that I sing in the choir during the Divine Liturgy, leads to having the experiences that the words speak of…”Let us who mystically represent the Cherubim, and who sing the thrice holy hymn to the life creating Trinity, now lay aside all cares of life!” “Let this communion be neither to my judgement or condemnation, but to the healing of soul and body.” And it is…
11:17 this was an intuition I had a while ago actually about many things in the world. I'm not explicitly a Christian, but I was raised as a Baptist so to a certain extent those ideas are baked into my psyche and I'm not one to say I believe in God in the traditional sense, but Jonathan's example of social media acting as a giant, decentralized will possessing an observable telos is how I see most of the universe. Essentially, whatever one can say about God and Satan, they are definitely AT LEAST "giant, decentralized wills possessing an observable telos." They could in fact be far more than that, and obviously the Christians have a thoroughly fleshed out system of ideas that states exactly so (including the alteration of "personal" rather than "decentralized"), but I think anyone who's been paying even a modicum of attention can't reasonably say they are any *less* than that. My intuition specifically was that there are at least two of these things and they seem to be at war with each other. They seem to represent chaos and order in a very Petersonian sense. I wouldn't say either is good or bad, but they have clear goals that oppose each other. Part of me is tempted to attribute the Christian god to the will that pursues order, thus making the will that pursues chaos Satan, obviously, but any self-respecting Christian would probably bring up the fact that things are way more complicated than that. In any case, I think it's undeniable that there are certain forces in the universe that are at war with each other, and on the most grand of scales I think there are fundamentally two of them. There could be an infinite number of them for all I know, at either lower or higher levels of resolution compared to the two I mentioned previously, but I just can't get away from that feeling that something like that is going on.
Thats so interesting that you percieve God to be order, and Satan to be chaos. I feel you have that backwards actually! Rather..since chaos is NOT random but long form order..that God is chaos, and Satan is order (order meaning strict rigidness, determinism, lack of spontaneity..lack of life basically). True chaos is the ability to do anything..but at the right moment, in the right time, in the right context/domain. Control seems to me to be about always monitoring and categorizing and usefulness..which lends itself to authoritarianism and narcissism..which is the opposite of life, growth, playfulness and exploration and emergence. Control to be seems to also lack intuition and the ability to sense into context/domains to act appropriately yet spontaneously. I do agree that control is not bad or good..its useful but only in the right context. Im not sure that a spirit of Control can understand the Spirit of Play/Life/Exploration tho, hence the "battle" between them not being able to find common ground or unify or peacefulness. Its like trying to get a colorblind person to understand color perhaps...they just cant relate to it as a concept or felt experience (unless they try out some of those Enchroma color correcting glasses and realize color for themselves).
Thanks a lot for the kind words and for all the support over the years, John and Jonathan. I wonder how closely John would come to the western Christian view of angels as unchanging. In Aquinas for instance, because angels are unchanging, I don't think we would associate 'consciousness' to them in any straightforward way. They're 'intellects' and they have the kinds of effects described in this video, but calling them 'consciousnesses' would be a bit of a stretch. Anyways, thanks a lot for the discussion! It's the closest thing I've ever seen to a dialogue between Aquinas and Maximus on angelology!
Rupert Sheldrake in his book says (playing off of Aquinas and Dionysius & Hildegard of Bingen) that angels intuit, not analyze or have discursive reasoning. They just…see or know. Also they (he and Matthew fox) say that angels evolve. So…🤷🏼♂️ . Explicitly on page 113 of their book “The Physics of Angels”. Quoting Aquinas, “ what is yet to be has not yet got a nature through which to resemble those ideas; hence it cannot be known through them.” (From the question, “Do angels know the future?”) ST 1, q.57, a.3 FYI
@@j.p.marceau5146 You should check out Nate Hile's recent talk with a very interesting Nigerian young man. Mainly on the Trinity. Great stuff. I think you'd find it stimulating. ua-cam.com/video/R4owtR4j-7M/v-deo.html
@@WhiteStoneName Thanks It's really interesting, in the preceding answer in the Summa, Aquinas speaks of a kind succession of intelligible concepts: Although the angel's intellect is above that time according to which corporeal movements are reckoned, yet there is a time in his mind according to the succession of intelligible concepts; of which Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. viii) that "God moves the spiritual creature according to time." And thus, since there is succession in the angel's intellect, not all things that happen through all time, are present to the angelic mind.
The idea of attention also makes sense in regards to how the Orthodox talk about dealing with the temptation of demons; not to pay attention to them, not to let them land in your mind and instead focus on God.
The IQ bell curve of thinking about God is Left: God is personal. Middle: God is abstract or impersonal. Right: God is personal. The fact that we are personal beings and the most intelligent beings we’ve encountered (the closest thing to god) suggests that the being or intelligence that made us is likely even more personal than we are, not less
Could be both in that god is a personal abstraction of the an “impersonal” (rather “transcendent”) being, often so grand as to be transcendence itself.
Spot on! A lot of Internet personalities that get heaps of praise and attention are stuck firmly in the middle unfortunately and are leading people astray
If we just substitute spirit for hyper -object, all kinds of things make more sense. Applying hierarchy to spirit and consciousness seems to work really well, I'm not sure why John doesn't see how well that works.
58:00 - John's point is spot-on here. A great eye-opener for me was realizing that "images" of space are almost entirely greatly marked-up/false-colored images if not total artist renditions.
Well they are real shapes of gas clouds and what not, but yeah most of them are like representations of what they would look like if we could see in ultraviolet wavelengths or something if I remember right.
Weird synchronicity as I see the notification for this while watching a music tutorial by a completely different channel actually titled "Collective Intelligence"
31:00 Vervaeke's description of channels for creating trustworthiness (and meaning) relates to the problem Bishop Barron spoke on in the Catholic Church's loss of the sacred. They took away the beauty (visual channel), the incense (olfactory channel), the Latin/chant/sacred music (auditory channel), and the kneeling rails and communion on the tongue (touch/physical channel). These are just a few examples. If our senses help us create trust and engage in meaning, then it is no wonder why the Novus Ordo Mass has led to a decline in the Church.
Good catch. It also explains why so many (me included) couldn’t go back to NO once TLM was experienced. It’s been hard to explain outside of “reverence” but this seems like a reasonable explanation.
@@alphabeta8284 Same with me. I have been to the TLM a few times but still regularly attend the NO and it's frankly a lesser form of worship. Vervaeke also described how we put our attention and meaning on the same thing as those around us, and I can't help but think of the focus of the congregation at a TLM vs. a Novus Ordo.
@@phoult37 But I have to say, when you go to a proper NO, it is also illumines the invisible Mystery. I don't know where you are, but I got a chance to visit NO in Poland over Christmas (going to adoration in 2 hours :)), as well as daily mass during the current Christmas octave. I must say, this is how the NO should be celebrated. I feel that my soul leaps into God's majesty, I am truly transported. Perhaps a part of it is that I cannot understand the language, but since I know the form of the mass, I know what's happening and can rather focus with all my non-verbal senses. It's hard to explain (also my wife translates the homily for me :)). So I have hope for the NO.
I so appreciate Jonathan’s, John’s, Paul’s, And Jordan’s conversations on these topics. You are all, always 100% sincere and open in your conversations above all else. This is so rare and appreciated in these times.
Oh, finally the question. Are transpersonal beings conscious? That is a key question! Haven’t got there yet just excited to see it in the description 😄 EDIT 1: And yes John that was a great point! Meditation is one of the triad of concentration/meditation/contemplation and people can create an imbalance if they focus on only one. EDIT 2: Finished when you were getting to the crux of the matter. I hope you start with the consciousness question next time.
It's effectively a question of are there only objects and verbs, subjects and verbs, or subjects verbs and objects? Basically it's the question of materialism vs idealism vs dualism. Is there a ghost in the machine? Is consciousness fundamental or emergent? I personally think that consciousness is fundamental and not emergent so I don't think a hyperobject like the internet is conscious, but I do think that both us and God are subjects not objects, with a consciousness, and the body is just the receiver and manifests the consciousness in a physical form much like I can attempt to try and draw a perfect circle that exists in my min and it manifests as an imperfect drawing of a circle.
@@Pietrosavr See, I also think consciousness is fundamental, but I take a panpsychist view, which not only allows for things like the internet to be conscious, but all manner of things.
I really hope you guys talk about Rupert Sheldrake and morphic fields and how that relates to angels & Neoplatonic thought and church fathers. He wrote a book with Matthew Fox called “The Physics of Angels”.
@@mostlydead3261 latour seems like an interesting chap from Wikipedia. What do you like about Gordon White? I can find less on him in a quick search. He’s an author and occultist?
I'm at the point in listening to so many Jonathan Pageau videos that I take notes on the insights I'm getting, including additional insights that arise in my own mind on the same subject but relating to something else. The video continues to play in the background and while I'm writing my additional insight down one of the next things out of Jonathan's mouth has to do with the same additional insight I'm in the process of writing down. It sure feels like were participating in a shared experience of the logos together. Wild stuff.
Thank you very much for this conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed it because it didn't go so far over my head that I couldn't understand it. I particularly enjoyed seeing or feeling a movement of relationships as fluid. Thank you.
that hour flew by! I was in the zone the whole time, its crazy that John also mentioned Vygotsky who coined the term the "zone". Very much looking forward to part 2, thank you Mr.Pageau!
This was amazing. One of my favorites from either Vervaeke or Pageau. Generally my perspective lines up moreso with Vervaeke, but there are points here where I relate strongly with Pageau's propositions. This terrain between their ideas feels quite relevant to me. I'm pretty excited for part 2.
This is fascinating given my recent immersion into Bhakti practices, thinking of the power of singing the holy names in a group. It explains a lot about the practice of deity worship and other group ceremony as well... @ 42:00 going into the train guru worship is considered so important as the gateway to Transcendence of perspective and self. Deep stuff here. Thankyou for expanding the consciousness. 🙏❣️ Haribol!
This is why Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita, of all sacrifices, He is the chanting of the holy name. Where attention guess, energy flows. Connecting to source requires the simultaneous dual relationship of personal effort and divine mercy.
Also as a health coach, this conversation on awareness is really important to understanding how to be more effective in directing the personal attention and intention of the client. Wow
If you think there's not a way of separating consciousness from the body, you missed a whole lot on eastern practices.... 1:10:28. Of course practicing both complete embodiment as well as soul consciousness is a personal endeavor which requires effort and time. It's taught in the Vedas that Krishna resides in every atom, and each soul (unit of individual consciousness) is no larger than that. So it's considered that consciousness is literally the very thing the entire universe is composed of. 🕉️🙏
I love u guys, this honest probing for truth just fills me with joy and hope. I don't care what we find, just the fact that we search, honestly search is a wonderful thing. 🙏
Thank you Gentlemen for a fine discussion. The reflections on the use of social media and its platforms were thankfully sane and circumspect ( or so it seemed to me ). Prof Vervaeke's articulation of attention, intention, and how it works with prioritization, salience, etc., was helpful and , I believe, how it really works. Somewhere around 8 or 9 minutes in Prof Vervaeke spoke of people who are becoming aware of "connectedness" and attention, with the issues of salience and relevance realization, but not necessarily embodying these "qualities" to their own flourishing, and to that of their communities. There may be good reasons for this, and some may find it impossible to make "the connections" that their communities want to "bind" them too. And you both went on to talk about the positives and negatives of community and individuation somewhat. Very helpful. One of you made a reference to Hitler and the hypnotic attention he accessed in large crowd events. It is chilling to read what he wrote about propaganda and the psychology of its use in his book. I don't know nothin about angels and principalities, but all I can write about that is . . . hold it . . . someone's knockin at the door. Gotta go.
Truly beautiful dialogos, exemplary with true love, charity and affection between them. Agape. Truly beautiful dialogos. Very excited to witness the follow-up after the initiation of the topic. It's a conversation I've been having with myself for forty years. Intentions set to truth and re-uniting science and Christianity. Braiding the cord, weaving the web.
I’m gonna need to listen to this talk a couple times to really get what’s going on fully but when they started talking about hyper objects representing the shared parts (if I’m not mistaken) of a system or people etc it was surprisingly clear to understand and helped to tie everything together
Vervaeke and Pageu have the most generative conversations in this space of any other two interlocutors. Can you please have a conversation at least twice a month?
I do my inner work with the Angels and Ive found that they all have directions and applications that ultimately build the House of God when used together.
With good health and cheer in mind, if my finger is twitching without my conscious control due to illness then healing it might involve consistent rehabilitation exercises to train the muscle and the brain to work together again. In the same manner with higher beings, if my day-to-day life is unhealthy, then training myself with religious exercises or a physical discipline like yoga can help put me back in order with the higher aspects of life that connect us all together. Thank you for sharing your discussions, they are helping me sort through my first things.
I think this may be one of the better conversations I've heard on metaphysics which is what this is I think. John V understands there are limits to materialism and it's what allows him to converse w Jon P in a meaningful conversation.
Angels precede us. And the fathers say that they (as well as the human soul) are not absolutely immaterial. They're made of something. Only God is absolutely immaterial.
Church fathers had various opinions about angels, some atribbuted to them so called "subtle bodies" or "ethereal corporeality", but it does not mean that they were material, If someone would have vision of an angel in a dream, then his body could be described as subtle or ethereal, anyway immateriality of angels was always mainsteram belief in Christianity. God as God the father is immaterial according to most of Christians, but Christ was embodied, so Absolute is material as well as immaterial.
You absolutely have to continue at the spot you ended the discussion. That point feels like the furthest point you can go as a "non-religious" person without becoming "religious" in the sense that Jonathan is a "religious" person.
Using more "scientific" language, what they are discussing is this: 1) the emergent behaviour of human beings is what we will call a "principality" or "spirit" or "angel" (depending on context). 2) sometimes a human being is an avatar for this emergent behaviour (for example, a sports team captain). 3) this emergent behaviour can and does direct the attention and behaviour of the humans participating in the group. This manifests itself as the appearance of a directed consciousness acting on the individuals.
This is the crux of what Vervaeke is getting at, but it strikes me that Pageau is trying to push further to a "top-down" rather than emergent model-an intelligence that exists in spite of any apparent constituent parts. This is of course more explicitly religious. The hyper-intelligence of Vervaeke's conjoined rat example would stop existing were the rats to be destroyed-a Christian cannot be permitted to say the same of God (i.e. that he would stop existing or would exist only "in potential" were the humans that make up his temporal "body" to disappear). I don't think Pageau bridges this gap.
That was great - you complemented each other and that afforded me sense of dawning understanding of what you were talking about. I would love to see Jordan Peterson involved into that discussion of the reality of the hyper-objects/forms/archetpyal patterns and hierarchy and the participation in Christ. This metaphor in particular I found compelling: like my finger is to myself, I am to the ideas/values that inhabit/possess me. I would also like to hear a evolutionary argument for how distributed cognition co-evolves with the personified patterns of reality and how these afford the individuals better perception of and conduct in allignment with these patterns. Thank you both for doing this!
In the book "Recognitions" by Evola I remember a chapter on the advent of the "Fifth Estate". The First Estate being comprised of the clergy, the Second of the nobles, the Third of the burghers, the Fourth of the proletariat. During the dissolution of society prestige is perversely misdirected toward the lower and lower orders. The suggestion is that the descent wouldn't stop with the Fourth Estate and a Marxist world, but continue to the "Fifth Estate" - an elemental substratum, a sub-personal background, forces of chaos no longer kept in check.
John Vervaeke has a very marked tendency to think of concepts, and to talk of the history of ideas, with reference to named individuals and their particular and often specific explanation of, and names for, these concepts or aspects of them. This tendency is of course pretty common in academia, for a number of reasons including citation practices and how people get credit for work, but I always notice it very much in John''s talks, perhaps because of his facility with language. But it strikes me that perhaps this is some manifestation of angels, in the personification of ideas and their manifestation through concrete, specific individuals, (many of whom are linked to each other) at particular points in history and in space.
It shows an appreciation and humility of acknowledgement that the ideas aren't his and he is merely communing with them, always has impressed me with how he naturally does that. Also I suspect it is his way of filing and retrieving memories/info which may bias him towards the concepts of personified/angelic aspects of thought
@@notmyrealpseudonym6702 Both can be true, but my point was precisely about the entire notion that ideas belong to individuals. In a way you've proved my point, which is not so much about JV in particular but about how ideas are so keenly linked to individuals, who in many cases are among a host of people who have basically said the same thing. Over the course of my life in academia, it is also very noticeable that citation practices, which are closely linked to how academics get validation and are assessed in an increasingly precarious profession, have become much more rigorous and have exacerbated this. I started to notice this in areas I was most familiar with, where it is obvious that many people are working with a set of ideas, yet only one dominant person will have their name picked out and associated with that idea or set of ideas.
I always love the moment where Jonathan just lays his cards on the table and says things like "there is a god behind the internet" or "the ocean has an angel."
Yes!
Cybercommand refers to itself as a fleet.
"Pay attention" is itself a phrase indicating sacrifice; one gives up their attention to another, "paying" it to them.
Boy oh boy, John and Jonathan are about to start speaking the same language. I look forward to that day when the 2 worlds truely collide, they have never been as close as this and i am enjoying the ride.
“Deep calling to deep,” was so deep it made me cry
I’m Muslim, but my friend (studies Christianity and Buddhism) sent me a link to your video with Jordan and the Bishop. Well my interest was peaked and so I’m now a new subscriber. Excited to hear this.
Guys, guys, you are spoiling us!
Any chance of inviting Iain McGilchrist into your circle?
Verveake is a gift to humanity.
You can just see how Jonathan's beliefs that we have heard from him many times are being cumulated here and built upon by John. Very great conversation. Now THIS is a psychedelic conversation.
+1 for the JBP podcast callback
John Vervaeke is amazingly honest and able to use his cog sci framework to grapple at a reality that is ultimately larger. In contrast to someone like Sam Harris who uses his very limited framework to constrain reality in it.
FIRST! And very excited about this! :)
Now I know what I'm doing NEXT week...
Lol
Lol
@@PaulVanderKlay RUPERT SHELDRAKE. How loudly do I have to yell, Paul!!
First 15 minutes or so: tech Babel. Mammon & the Machine
John and Jonathan,
These conversations have been the access point for so many of us to set our eyes on things above. I have watched as the insights from your dialogues have played a key role in improving my life.
Please continue to have these conversations with each other!
Amen to that!
I'd pay so much money to see these two in conversation with Dr. Iain McGilchrist and Dr. Bernardo Kastrup.
Probably my four favourites too.
Oh please please please!
And Stephen Wolfram.
Saw the "Four Horsemen..." as well. Just excellent. As an Orthodox, I am solidly in Mr. Pageau's corner. But Dr. Vervaeke was on fire! Just wonderful. I could listen to these discussions all day. Thank you all.
I hear enormous arrogance and hubris attempting to appropriate God and His angels as some function of human collective intelligence. And at once small mindedness in his inability to acknowledge Presences existing independently of human though.
@@eleventylevity Different kinds of (collective or not) human experience is the only way we can perceive God. Nothing wrong with examining those.
@@eleventylevity bingo! Once you’ve tasted the experience that “I know NOTHING” touching the hem of His garment in deep prayer, you see that WORDS are not the language that captures the experience of God.
As a Catholic, i agree...this will be the new enlightment. Atheism start to crumble.
@@borneandayak6725 I wish, but this conversation is happening in a very small corner of the world, relatively speaking. A few million people engaging in this topic is not likely to bring a new age. But there's always hope.
Wow! The convergence of attendance made me think about the Divine Liturgy - all of the senses are activated during the Liturgy - see the beauty of what is happening, touch the icons and the candles, smell the incense, hear the Word of God being sung throughout the entire Liturgy, and it all comes together with the sense of tasting the body and blood of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. And we experience all of this together when we come together at church to worship God together. It is how we trust our experience of God as being Truth. So cool!
John Vervaeke has really grown on me.... And I didn't dislike him at all before! Johnathan- You as well! Thank you for this one.
On the notion of attention being the thing that rules in and rules out: it occurred to me that the word praise is etymologically related to the word appraise, which means to judge or to qualify, even to catalogue or describe. From the dictionary “assess the value or quality of”, essentially to rule in or rule out.
Fantastic insight!
Hm.
And "appreciate"?
16:00 There's a guy on UA-cam called MemeAnalysis that does symbolic interpretations of memes. He says the Internet is a DEVOURING MOTHER - ready to give you anything you want but never lets you go. It's the collective anima. What do you think about that?
Collective anima wow 🤯
@@dejavugh2130 searched what the definition of anima, accidentally typed anema... no further comments...
I really like this. It's no coincidence that the emergence of the collective anima and devouring mother comes about at the same time as the Karen meme.
@@MartinWondergem hahaha, I was thinking more like "the internet is for p0rn" kind of thing, but Karen's also fine :D
@@joshuasy10 oh poor you...
Attention in worship, paying close attention to the words that I sing in the choir during the Divine Liturgy, leads to having the experiences that the words speak of…”Let us who mystically represent the Cherubim, and who sing the thrice holy hymn to the life creating Trinity, now lay aside all cares of life!” “Let this communion be neither to my judgement or condemnation, but to the healing of soul and body.” And it is…
I am very touched and moved by how this conversation demonstrates the enactment of good faith from both parties. Beautiful.
My head is exploding from all the meaning beamed into me from all the cool videos the last days
Ugh my full time job is getting in the way of me dedicating all my attention to these videos lol
11:17 this was an intuition I had a while ago actually about many things in the world. I'm not explicitly a Christian, but I was raised as a Baptist so to a certain extent those ideas are baked into my psyche and I'm not one to say I believe in God in the traditional sense, but Jonathan's example of social media acting as a giant, decentralized will possessing an observable telos is how I see most of the universe.
Essentially, whatever one can say about God and Satan, they are definitely AT LEAST "giant, decentralized wills possessing an observable telos." They could in fact be far more than that, and obviously the Christians have a thoroughly fleshed out system of ideas that states exactly so (including the alteration of "personal" rather than "decentralized"), but I think anyone who's been paying even a modicum of attention can't reasonably say they are any *less* than that.
My intuition specifically was that there are at least two of these things and they seem to be at war with each other. They seem to represent chaos and order in a very Petersonian sense. I wouldn't say either is good or bad, but they have clear goals that oppose each other. Part of me is tempted to attribute the Christian god to the will that pursues order, thus making the will that pursues chaos Satan, obviously, but any self-respecting Christian would probably bring up the fact that things are way more complicated than that.
In any case, I think it's undeniable that there are certain forces in the universe that are at war with each other, and on the most grand of scales I think there are fundamentally two of them. There could be an infinite number of them for all I know, at either lower or higher levels of resolution compared to the two I mentioned previously, but I just can't get away from that feeling that something like that is going on.
I feel that brother.
Thats so interesting that you percieve God to be order, and Satan to be chaos. I feel you have that backwards actually! Rather..since chaos is NOT random but long form order..that God is chaos, and Satan is order (order meaning strict rigidness, determinism, lack of spontaneity..lack of life basically).
True chaos is the ability to do anything..but at the right moment, in the right time, in the right context/domain. Control seems to me to be about always monitoring and categorizing and usefulness..which lends itself to authoritarianism and narcissism..which is the opposite of life, growth, playfulness and exploration and emergence. Control to be seems to also lack intuition and the ability to sense into context/domains to act appropriately yet spontaneously.
I do agree that control is not bad or good..its useful but only in the right context. Im not sure that a spirit of Control can understand the Spirit of Play/Life/Exploration tho, hence the "battle" between them not being able to find common ground or unify or peacefulness. Its like trying to get a colorblind person to understand color perhaps...they just cant relate to it as a concept or felt experience (unless they try out some of those Enchroma color correcting glasses and realize color for themselves).
Great conversation! In the truest meaning of the term “conversation”. Unfortunately it ended way too soon.
Thanks a lot for the kind words and for all the support over the years, John and Jonathan.
I wonder how closely John would come to the western Christian view of angels as unchanging. In Aquinas for instance, because angels are unchanging, I don't think we would associate 'consciousness' to them in any straightforward way. They're 'intellects' and they have the kinds of effects described in this video, but calling them 'consciousnesses' would be a bit of a stretch.
Anyways, thanks a lot for the discussion! It's the closest thing I've ever seen to a dialogue between Aquinas and Maximus on angelology!
Rupert Sheldrake in his book says (playing off of Aquinas and Dionysius & Hildegard of Bingen) that angels intuit, not analyze or have discursive reasoning. They just…see or know.
Also they (he and Matthew fox) say that angels evolve. So…🤷🏼♂️ . Explicitly on page 113 of their book “The Physics of Angels”. Quoting Aquinas, “ what is yet to be has not yet got a nature through which to resemble those ideas; hence it cannot be known through them.” (From the question, “Do angels know the future?”) ST 1, q.57, a.3 FYI
St. Maximus, pray for us!
@@WhiteStoneName Interesting, thanks for the reference, I'll check out the ST
@@j.p.marceau5146 You should check out Nate Hile's recent talk with a very interesting Nigerian young man. Mainly on the Trinity. Great stuff. I think you'd find it stimulating. ua-cam.com/video/R4owtR4j-7M/v-deo.html
@@WhiteStoneName Thanks
It's really interesting, in the preceding answer in the Summa, Aquinas speaks of a kind succession of intelligible concepts:
Although the angel's intellect is above that time according to which corporeal movements are reckoned, yet there is a time in his mind according to the succession of intelligible concepts; of which Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. viii) that "God moves the spiritual creature according to time." And thus, since there is succession in the angel's intellect, not all things that happen through all time, are present to the angelic mind.
This Conversation was so Intense It Might as Well Be Psychedelic too! Thanks guys.
The idea of attention also makes sense in regards to how the Orthodox talk about dealing with the temptation of demons; not to pay attention to them, not to let them land in your mind and instead focus on God.
The IQ bell curve of thinking about God is
Left: God is personal. Middle: God is abstract or impersonal. Right: God is personal.
The fact that we are personal beings and the most intelligent beings we’ve encountered (the closest thing to god) suggests that the being or intelligence that made us is likely even more personal than we are, not less
Could be both in that god is a personal abstraction of the an “impersonal” (rather “transcendent”) being, often so grand as to be transcendence itself.
Spot on! A lot of Internet personalities that get heaps of praise and attention are stuck firmly in the middle unfortunately and are leading people astray
Woah yeah actually.
Bishop Barron AND John in the same week? Thanks Jonathan!
If we just substitute spirit for hyper -object, all kinds of things make more sense. Applying hierarchy to spirit and consciousness seems to work really well, I'm not sure why John doesn't see how well that works.
50:00 I feel like a (mostly) veiled aspect of the Hyperobject we all live in has been revealed, become more apparent, in just the last 2-5 years.
58:00 - John's point is spot-on here. A great eye-opener for me was realizing that "images" of space are almost entirely greatly marked-up/false-colored images if not total artist renditions.
Well they are real shapes of gas clouds and what not, but yeah most of them are like representations of what they would look like if we could see in ultraviolet wavelengths or something if I remember right.
Weird synchronicity as I see the notification for this while watching a music tutorial by a completely different channel actually titled "Collective Intelligence"
31:00 Vervaeke's description of channels for creating trustworthiness (and meaning) relates to the problem Bishop Barron spoke on in the Catholic Church's loss of the sacred. They took away the beauty (visual channel), the incense (olfactory channel), the Latin/chant/sacred music (auditory channel), and the kneeling rails and communion on the tongue (touch/physical channel). These are just a few examples. If our senses help us create trust and engage in meaning, then it is no wonder why the Novus Ordo Mass has led to a decline in the Church.
Good catch. It also explains why so many (me included) couldn’t go back to NO once TLM was experienced. It’s been hard to explain outside of “reverence” but this seems like a reasonable explanation.
@@alphabeta8284 Same with me. I have been to the TLM a few times but still regularly attend the NO and it's frankly a lesser form of worship. Vervaeke also described how we put our attention and meaning on the same thing as those around us, and I can't help but think of the focus of the congregation at a TLM vs. a Novus Ordo.
@@phoult37 But I have to say, when you go to a proper NO, it is also illumines the invisible Mystery. I don't know where you are, but I got a chance to visit NO in Poland over Christmas (going to adoration in 2 hours :)), as well as daily mass during the current Christmas octave. I must say, this is how the NO should be celebrated. I feel that my soul leaps into God's majesty, I am truly transported. Perhaps a part of it is that I cannot understand the language, but since I know the form of the mass, I know what's happening and can rather focus with all my non-verbal senses. It's hard to explain (also my wife translates the homily for me :)). So I have hope for the NO.
I so appreciate Jonathan’s, John’s, Paul’s, And Jordan’s conversations on these topics.
You are all, always 100% sincere and open in your conversations above all else. This is so rare and appreciated in these times.
Amazing, the 4 Horsemen of meaning is really enrich me. New subscriber here, and I like your video with Bishop Barron. This is a new enlightment....
This conversation makes me think of the Sistine Chapel. The spirit of Man and the spirit of God trying to find the point where they connect.
Oh, finally the question. Are transpersonal beings conscious? That is a key question! Haven’t got there yet just excited to see it in the description 😄
EDIT 1: And yes John that was a great point! Meditation is one of the triad of concentration/meditation/contemplation and people can create an imbalance if they focus on only one.
EDIT 2: Finished when you were getting to the crux of the matter. I hope you start with the consciousness question next time.
It's effectively a question of are there only objects and verbs, subjects and verbs, or subjects verbs and objects? Basically it's the question of materialism vs idealism vs dualism. Is there a ghost in the machine? Is consciousness fundamental or emergent? I personally think that consciousness is fundamental and not emergent so I don't think a hyperobject like the internet is conscious, but I do think that both us and God are subjects not objects, with a consciousness, and the body is just the receiver and manifests the consciousness in a physical form much like I can attempt to try and draw a perfect circle that exists in my min and it manifests as an imperfect drawing of a circle.
@@Pietrosavr See, I also think consciousness is fundamental, but I take a panpsychist view, which not only allows for things like the internet to be conscious, but all manner of things.
Glorious dialogue. More please.
I really hope you guys talk about Rupert Sheldrake and morphic fields and how that relates to angels & Neoplatonic thought and church fathers.
He wrote a book with Matthew Fox called “The Physics of Angels”.
I wonder if Matthew Fox is in any way related to Emmet Fox "The sermon on the mount"? Just a thought....
I love Sheldrake! Such a good suggestion, Luke.
yup.. he should also talk to Gordon White and Bruno Latour..
@@mostlydead3261 latour seems like an interesting chap from Wikipedia. What do you like about Gordon White? I can find less on him in a quick search. He’s an author and occultist?
I'm really looking forward to part 2!! Thanks to all involved.
There is something very special to have tracked john and jonathan over a period of years and to have seen dialogos over time
As I mull on it, the idea that principalities are as real as ourselves trips me out as it starts making sense
So interesting! Thank you. I'll watch this a couple of times, because I know I missed things and I need some time to get other things right.
Excellent! Can't wait for Part Two, and John's discussion with Bishop Barron.
my spirit is lifted hearing this
lifted and expanded
I needed it
The river has a consciousness!! Rupert Sheldrake!!
You have to continue this! Amazing. Cutting edge of this whole conversation !
Great discussion-I love how these talks give me so much to think about and ponder.
I'm at the point in listening to so many Jonathan Pageau videos that I take notes on the insights I'm getting, including additional insights that arise in my own mind on the same subject but relating to something else. The video continues to play in the background and while I'm writing my additional insight down one of the next things out of Jonathan's mouth has to do with the same additional insight I'm in the process of writing down. It sure feels like were participating in a shared experience of the logos together. Wild stuff.
What a fantastic discussion! I feel so lucky to be able to listen to such clear intelligent thinkers 👍
Thank you very much for this conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed it because it didn't go so far over my head that I couldn't understand it. I particularly enjoyed seeing or feeling a movement of relationships as fluid. Thank you.
I feel like I need to watch these videos multiple times to fully grasp the messages. This is such valuable stuff!
I LOVE the clarity about attention! This conversation is poetry
I was glued to this conversation and at the end I realised that pretty much no other topic matters.
that hour flew by! I was in the zone the whole time, its crazy that John also mentioned Vygotsky who coined the term the "zone". Very much looking forward to part 2, thank you Mr.Pageau!
This was amazing. One of my favorites from either Vervaeke or Pageau. Generally my perspective lines up moreso with Vervaeke, but there are points here where I relate strongly with Pageau's propositions. This terrain between their ideas feels quite relevant to me. I'm pretty excited for part 2.
This is fascinating given my recent immersion into Bhakti practices, thinking of the power of singing the holy names in a group. It explains a lot about the practice of deity worship and other group ceremony as well... @ 42:00 going into the train guru worship is considered so important as the gateway to Transcendence of perspective and self. Deep stuff here. Thankyou for expanding the consciousness. 🙏❣️ Haribol!
This is why Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita, of all sacrifices, He is the chanting of the holy name. Where attention guess, energy flows. Connecting to source requires the simultaneous dual relationship of personal effort and divine mercy.
Also as a health coach, this conversation on awareness is really important to understanding how to be more effective in directing the personal attention and intention of the client. Wow
If you think there's not a way of separating consciousness from the body, you missed a whole lot on eastern practices.... 1:10:28. Of course practicing both complete embodiment as well as soul consciousness is a personal endeavor which requires effort and time. It's taught in the Vedas that Krishna resides in every atom, and each soul (unit of individual consciousness) is no larger than that. So it's considered that consciousness is literally the very thing the entire universe is composed of. 🕉️🙏
I love u guys, this honest probing for truth just fills me with joy and hope. I don't care what we find, just the fact that we search, honestly search is a wonderful thing. 🙏
Thank you Gentlemen for a fine discussion. The reflections on the use of social media and its platforms were thankfully sane and circumspect ( or so it seemed to me ). Prof Vervaeke's articulation of attention, intention, and how it works with prioritization, salience, etc., was helpful and , I believe, how it really works. Somewhere around 8 or 9 minutes in Prof Vervaeke spoke of people who are becoming aware of "connectedness" and attention, with the issues of salience and relevance realization, but not necessarily embodying these "qualities" to their own flourishing, and to that of their communities. There may be good reasons for this, and some may find it impossible to make "the connections" that their communities want to "bind" them too. And you both went on to talk about the positives and negatives of community and individuation somewhat. Very helpful. One of you made a reference to Hitler and the hypnotic attention he accessed in large crowd events. It is chilling to read what he wrote about propaganda and the psychology of its use in his book.
I don't know nothin about angels and principalities, but all I can write about that is . . . hold it . . . someone's knockin at the door. Gotta go.
Truly beautiful dialogos, exemplary with true love, charity and affection between them. Agape. Truly beautiful dialogos. Very excited to witness the follow-up after the initiation of the topic. It's a conversation I've been having with myself for forty years. Intentions set to truth and re-uniting science and Christianity. Braiding the cord, weaving the web.
1:02:21 this is what I, we, need to learn
Wow! You are spoiling us Jonathan!!!
I was waiting for this one! Truly fascinating conversation and hope you both have many more.
I’m gonna need to listen to this talk a couple times to really get what’s going on fully but when they started talking about hyper objects representing the shared parts (if I’m not mistaken) of a system or people etc it was surprisingly clear to understand and helped to tie everything together
Vervaeke and Pageu have the most generative conversations in this space of any other two interlocutors. Can you please have a conversation at least twice a month?
Can't wait for part two! Great content, thank you.
I do my inner work with the Angels and Ive found that they all have directions and applications that ultimately build the House of God when used together.
Thanks John and Jonathan!
God Bless . The Four Horseman, Thank You.
Thank you so deeply for everything you do for us ♥️
I cannot wot for part two. This was the best conversation ever. Thanks
With good health and cheer in mind, if my finger is twitching without my conscious control due to illness then healing it might involve consistent rehabilitation exercises to train the muscle and the brain to work together again. In the same manner with higher beings, if my day-to-day life is unhealthy, then training myself with religious exercises or a physical discipline like yoga can help put me back in order with the higher aspects of life that connect us all together. Thank you for sharing your discussions, they are helping me sort through my first things.
Great conversation, can’t wait for part 2. I noticed this isn’t on the podcast yet, hope you can keep putting them out at the same time
You guys are both wonderful, and wonderful together!
Thank you for your conversations.
Woah amazing timing to drop all this new content! I’m sure there have been many newcomers to the channel over the last few weeks
Some stunning insights around addiction in this
Thank you Both for continuing to explore these topics and sharing this amazing chat with us meere plebs 😃
I think this may be one of the better conversations I've heard on metaphysics which is what this is I think. John V understands there are limits to materialism and it's what allows him to converse w Jon P in a meaningful conversation.
Angels precede us. And the fathers say that they (as well as the human soul) are not absolutely immaterial. They're made of something. Only God is absolutely immaterial.
Church fathers had various opinions about angels, some atribbuted to them so called "subtle bodies" or "ethereal corporeality", but it does not mean that they were material, If someone would have vision of an angel in a dream, then his body could be described as subtle or ethereal, anyway immateriality of angels was always mainsteram belief in Christianity. God as God the father is immaterial according to most of Christians, but Christ was embodied, so Absolute is material as well as immaterial.
...really enjoying these discussions...
My brain is just thirsty for this. Wowwwww
You absolutely have to continue at the spot you ended the discussion. That point feels like the furthest point you can go as a "non-religious" person without becoming "religious" in the sense that Jonathan is a "religious" person.
This had all my attention 👽
Delightful video! Thanks to you both!
Thanks, guys!
Fantastic conversation!
Using more "scientific" language, what they are discussing is this:
1) the emergent behaviour of human beings is what we will call a "principality" or "spirit" or "angel" (depending on context).
2) sometimes a human being is an avatar for this emergent behaviour (for example, a sports team captain).
3) this emergent behaviour can and does direct the attention and behaviour of the humans participating in the group. This manifests itself as the appearance of a directed consciousness acting on the individuals.
This is the crux of what Vervaeke is getting at, but it strikes me that Pageau is trying to push further to a "top-down" rather than emergent model-an intelligence that exists in spite of any apparent constituent parts. This is of course more explicitly religious. The hyper-intelligence of Vervaeke's conjoined rat example would stop existing were the rats to be destroyed-a Christian cannot be permitted to say the same of God (i.e. that he would stop existing or would exist only "in potential" were the humans that make up his temporal "body" to disappear). I don't think Pageau bridges this gap.
That was great - you complemented each other and that afforded me sense of dawning understanding of what you were talking about. I would love to see Jordan Peterson involved into that discussion of the reality of the hyper-objects/forms/archetpyal patterns and hierarchy and the participation in Christ.
This metaphor in particular I found compelling: like my finger is to myself, I am to the ideas/values that inhabit/possess me.
I would also like to hear a evolutionary argument for how distributed cognition co-evolves with the personified patterns of reality and how these afford the individuals better perception of and conduct in allignment with these patterns.
Thank you both for doing this!
In the book "Recognitions" by Evola I remember a chapter on the advent of the "Fifth Estate". The First Estate being comprised of the clergy, the Second of the nobles, the Third of the burghers, the Fourth of the proletariat. During the dissolution of society prestige is perversely misdirected toward the lower and lower orders. The suggestion is that the descent wouldn't stop with the Fourth Estate and a Marxist world, but continue to the "Fifth Estate" - an elemental substratum, a sub-personal background, forces of chaos no longer kept in check.
I can't figure out which one of you two I love more :O)
For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them. Matthew 18:20
John Vervaeke has a very marked tendency to think of concepts, and to talk of the history of ideas, with reference to named individuals and their particular and often specific explanation of, and names for, these concepts or aspects of them. This tendency is of course pretty common in academia, for a number of reasons including citation practices and how people get credit for work, but I always notice it very much in John''s talks, perhaps because of his facility with language. But it strikes me that perhaps this is some manifestation of angels, in the personification of ideas and their manifestation through concrete, specific individuals, (many of whom are linked to each other) at particular points in history and in space.
It shows an appreciation and humility of acknowledgement that the ideas aren't his and he is merely communing with them, always has impressed me with how he naturally does that. Also I suspect it is his way of filing and retrieving memories/info which may bias him towards the concepts of personified/angelic aspects of thought
@@notmyrealpseudonym6702 Both can be true, but my point was precisely about the entire notion that ideas belong to individuals. In a way you've proved my point, which is not so much about JV in particular but about how ideas are so keenly linked to individuals, who in many cases are among a host of people who have basically said the same thing. Over the course of my life in academia, it is also very noticeable that citation practices, which are closely linked to how academics get validation and are assessed in an increasingly precarious profession, have become much more rigorous and have exacerbated this. I started to notice this in areas I was most familiar with, where it is obvious that many people are working with a set of ideas, yet only one dominant person will have their name picked out and associated with that idea or set of ideas.
Loved this!
Mind blown from 42:00 through 45:00
Top 10 conversations of all time
Really great conversation.
Great discuss between Jonathan and Ed Helms.
This guys intro is amazing.
Shout out to my boy JP 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻