A Comment on Alex O’Connor’s Conversation with JBP - Do Adam and Eve Die After They Eat the Fruit?
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
- Do Adam and Eve die after eating the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Bad in the Garden of Eden? In this video, I comment on a question @CosmicSkeptic asked @JordanBPeterson in their recent conversation concerning the meaning of death and the Fall in Genesis.
Jordan Peterson's conversation with Alex O'Connor: Navigating Belief, Skepticism, and the Afterlife | Alex O'Connor @CosmicSkeptic | EP 451: • Navigating Belief, Ske...
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My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson.
This was really good. Thank you Jonathan!
The little corner is expanding at the expense of...
@@eax2010EA Flood time
It is very interesting that God could see & hear Adam & Eve BEFORE they participated in the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Then AFTER Adam & Eve participated in the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, God could only hear them BUT God could NOT see them.
Habakkuk 1:13 Your eyes are too pure to look at sin. You cannot look on wrong. Why then do You look with favor on those who do wrong? Why are You quiet when the sinful destroy those who are more right and good than they?
What was good? Incoherent heretical new-age mambo jumbo like those of J.Peterson???
@@Lev.EasternOrthodox How is anything Pageau said incoherent?
"A car makes a bad lunch"
_subtly pushes 2006 Toyota Corolla off of his plate_
I wish Jonathan will talk to Alex again soon. Their latest conversation was interesting but it did not really go into theology at all, it was more of a getting to know eachother conversation.
It kind of needs to happen but Jonathan said he doesn't want to talk about it because he doesn't think it'll be a productive conversation.
@@drooskie9525 seems like that opinion has shifted based on Pageau's intro to this video.
Lol. Jonathan can't handle the heat. He's the soft kind.
@Jaymastia nah I just think he doesn't want to waste time talking past people.
@@jacobgray676 This as well. Rather than find a foothold within their minds and pit his ideas against theirs, he would choose a more familiar audience or territory.
Even Jordan is the same , but he tries to push back as much as he can , since he understands the need. Like Jordan said `It is better not to sweep some things under carpet because you want to avoid confrontation or conflict. This was from the Hijab discussion, where Jonathan was mostly silent throughout it.
Just saying.
Either this is the best explanation Pageau has given of these ideas or I am finally getting it. Either way, I very much appreciate his willingness to explain these concepts time and again for those of us in the back.
I suspect both may be true.
Curious if you listened to the talk he is referring to or just this review of the talk? I ask because it might help others too (I didn’t listen to the talk he is referring to, but found this video very interesting nonetheless)
Pageau encroaching on PVK's video commentary turf? I'm here for it.
The title of the video is long enough but a little too straightforward 😆
Lobster ontology turf war 😂
17:13 ‘trapped in multiplicity without unity’ I think here I had a glimpse of understanding about the catastrophy of original sin. This answers for me the question of feeling this deep longing.
I think this is the most important video I've seen this year. So many things clicked in the right place and gave clarity to my death and life.
Multiplicity and Unity are finally starting to click for me, thank you Jonathan and praise God
I am so glad you’re addressing this, Jonathan, because it frustrated me no end. Dying is a process, not an event. What I think Alex and Dr. Peterson meant was that Adam and Eve did not immediately fall down dead, and that isn’t what it means. The process of dying began in their bodies. It took many years to become manifest, and those years were the grace of God, but death came into the world that day.
“It is the blight that man was born for;
It is Margaret you mourn for.”
With love from
Ruth Anne
Can't go wrong with Father Hopkins, kid...Vaya con Dios, mi hermana!
@@thomassimmons1950I don’t think a day goes by that I don’t think of a line from our brother Father Hopkins!
@@AFringedGentian Cheers, Luv!
Dying and death are not one and the same, just like living and birth are drastically different.
This understanding is the most appropriate way of looking at it. Adam and Eve were barred from eating the Tree of Life... God placed Cherubim to watch over it.
If Adam and Eve were to just drop dead, what then was the purpose of them if God knew the future, and what was the purpose of the Tree of Life if they were already set in immortality?
It is clear that the fall of Adam and Eve was necessary to start it all. But it's also evident that it was the Tree of Life keeping Adam and Eve from aging and entropy. Once they ceased eating from it, their bodies started to age as per normal and the bodies entropy wasn't hindered by the Tree of Life.
Thus, in the day they ate, they were condemned to death because they no longer had anything keeping them in top condition.
Jonathan on Joe Rogan when?
Omg yes
Ate the fruit: plus an instant loss of spiritual clarity...dread of Creator's presence. God created all the animals, "Now the beast was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made." And immediately the subtle (cunning/crafty) creature went after Eve with his clever lies.
"Mystery of iniquity" Lucifer was beautiful / perfect ...100% , "until iniquity was found in him." "MYSTERY" Deuteronomy 29;29
maybe better on lex fridman
Jonathan is way too smart for joe goofball. He’d speak past him the whole time and joe would be like “duh, right, so drugs?”
This Is not about Jonathan been smarter thank Joe. He deserves Rogan's platform so he becomes even more visible. People deserve Jonathan's wisdom (as well as Matthew's).
The best explanation of death is separation from God who holds all disunity together and gives it purpose, remove that which holds all things together and you have death.
Jonathan's message is again blowing my mind and changing the way I see the world.
That’s what has already happened to the world. The modern world is dead. We are all just decomposing. That’s how 40 feels too
I love the reframing of "good and evil" to "good and bad", makes the concepts much more universally applicable beyond just ethics.
Gread vid, Jonathan!
Yes! This is so helpful. I’m using other categories like, fits/doesn’t fit or works/doesn’t work to help me renew my mind from the baggage of good vs evil.
My first ever UA-cam comment to say that this is superb Johnathan. Please - make more videos breaking down biblical stories in this format. Thank you so much.
Good post. The puzzling thing to me is how this sort of thing is not immediately obvious to someone like Alex - that death did not have to be immediate, and that it is a far richer concept than a flat reading. This sort of thing is found all over the place in the scriptures - that the story unfolds in a richer way that originally communicated.
Probably stuck on the "...on that day..." bit.
Thought even the word day, doesn't necessarily mean a specific day, even in modern usage. Such as "in the day of King Arthur" etc.
It says you'll die in the very same day
@@tomasrocha6139A “day” means many things in the Hebrew Bible. It does not always refer to a singular turn around Earth’s axis.
@@tomasrocha6139 I would encourage you to listen to the video again - you dont have to agree with JP but that does not mean you could understand why someone like him would not be bothered by the flat reading of the text - a bit pointless to make such a comment following the video imo.
Loved this, thank you brother Pageau!
This is brilliant. You're work blows my mind and played a huge role in converting me to Orthodoxy. Thankyou Jonathan.
Hi Mr Jonathan I humbly thank you and our Lord Jesús for your window of opportunity to hear and learn for all of us who are listening about the word of God.
Jay Dyer talks to Alex O'Connor when?
I have your brothers book and I'm getting ready to read it again!..lol. can I just say , this foundational explanation of death, multiplicity etc is my fav !❤
Really good. Thank you Jonathan.
This was really great. Eye opening as usual.
Damn, this guy…
I tell you…
I always love your takes on symbology and meaning because you genuinely unlock paths and bridges in my brain.
It’s like playing a video game and realizing, “oh there was a shortcut here all along…”
Thank you good sir.
Very interesting video, Jonathan, thank you!
It's wild that in all the years and conversations, you have never shared this explanation until now. Very helpful, very good.
I'm going to have to watch this a few more times! Really good!
thank you for clarification insights
One of the best articulations I’ve heard yet on this basic pattern. Thanks Jonathan!
Wonderful video, thank you!!
I am so grateful you shared your response to all this on YT! As soon as JBP mentioned being curious about your thoughts on the topic, I imagined you two talking privately and was wishing I could be a fly on the wall for it. So this was a blessing! Thank you for sharing your understanding and thinking around these topics. I’m wondering if you have a biblical commentary series? I know about Exodus and current works on The Gospel but am thirsty for more insight on the Bible from your insight
I really enjoyed this video. Amazing insight❤
I appreciate the content.
I’ve been watching Alex’s videos lately, and of all people, I have been hoping that Jonathan would engage with him. Alex is clever, calm, and reasonable, but he has (as Widdecombe said of Howard) something of the night about him. I’d like to see Jonathan have a conversation with him about symbolism, the multiplicity of religions, truth, scientism - when I heard them talk it was mostly about art and architecture, which, though fascinating, didn’t give Alex the run for his money that I feel JP could.
he already did a convo on architecture
Saw you and Peterson in Richmond. It was a good time.
Wow. I got this on the first take. Well said, well stated.
It was really a wonderful time ❤
Please continue to teach on this.
Thank you very much Jonathan. I love to listen to you. I’m going to have to listen to this one again though because it was extremely confusing in my brain but that’s just because it’s me. Generally I get it but this was a little bit different. I loved it very much and I will relisten and thank you thank you thank you for everything you do. God bless you.
That concept of seeing the evil from the perspective of the good and seeing the good from the perspective of the evil was absolutly fascinating. In the later case, it is like chasing some good, often desperatly, which, in some sense, seems to flee from you, or just does not come closer. But as soon as you stop chasing it and start to cultivate the right relationship to this good, it seems like that that good starts to desolve and not reappear close to you, but inside you, which enables you to 'see the evil from the view point of the good'. This enables you to see other goods, which you could not see before, and to develope an ability to approach these in the right way, such that they are not fleeing from you. I would make the case, that the more one is able to approach different goods, and has approached these, the fuller his/her notion of good becomes, and the more comprehensive his/her view on evil gets. It is like scaling a mountain. Or like an reinforcement loop. The better you become, the more (implicit/explicit) knowledge you achieve by becoming what you aim at. And the higher the knowledge, the more applicable it is to different problems and domains, which in turns helps you to become more than what you are at the moment.
Excellent demonstration about death!
It was really a great discussion. Alex is doing some amazing work.
I wish it had gone longer and that Alex got to speak more. I'm a big JBP fan, but sometimes I want to hear the other voice in the conversation a bit more.
he is merely polite.
@@ithurtsbecauseitstruehe shows understanding too. What would you want him to do that he doesn’t?
Amazing work? Why is being a tool of Satan amazing to you?
"Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75." --Ben Franklin
On the blue letter Bible app, I do an interlinear Word search for good, evil, and die. I also check out the sentence structure of the words in the whole verse. I always felt like God told the truth, now you will die (eventually), he just didn't say you will grow old first and then you will die. we remember that Adam and Eve were not born from other people, they did not grow up as toddlers then teenagers. They were adults we can assume. So the aging and decaying process did not enter the world until the fall of man in the fall of creation, triggered by Adam eating the fruit, or Adam and Eve eating the fruit and falling to temptation and disobeying God. Interesting that God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, are the only supernatural things we are allowed to interact with successfully. Everything else from the spirit world, chaotic and uncontrollable by us. unless we're controlling our own self-destruction. So even though Adam and Eve suddenly understood, good and bad, good and evil, they were not necessarily able to control it successfully, at least not without the help from God and instructions from God. It goes for us till this day.
[Unificationism]
There was a point in the human evolutionary lineage when less human-like became what we consider now as human. Adam and Eve were the first human ancestors, but they probably came from close to human-like parents. We shouldn't think that they just magically appeared like in a video game out of sand.
Dr. Peterson needs to read St. Ephrem’s Hymns on Paradise I’ve noticed a few places where that book answers questions he did not have the answers to.
This is such an amazing description of death that captures a spiritual meaning but also is completely intelligible to a secular mind, really incredible. Moments like these are ways out, cracks to let light into a materialist worldview. Not to be underestimated.
I was also struck by this part of the JBP discussion and thought about a perspective in which the initial choice by Eve to trust the snake immediately leads to an inversion - if you eat and don’t die (yet), your new “knowledge” must tell you that God lied and isn’t Good. As soon as the decision to eat is made, you’ve failed Kierkegaard’s either/or and now your ontology is inverted. This could also be a kind of death.
Yoo, this is quite the insight
I personally am surprised that folks didn't understand the concept after reading gensis themselves. I'm definitely not perfect in my complete understanding but I get the philosophical points and psychology. I'm happy he puts this out there though...JP makes it easy to understand. 😊 It will come as a blessing to many.
Thanks
very good comment
Hi brother, I just found your channel from Ruslan KD covering your debate with Jake Newfield, thought it and this video were excellent. Im kinda taken aback though, Ive been an artist my whole life and am finding it refreshing and its also kinda freaking me out how similar we think. When I found Norman Geisler it blew my mind, with books like Christian Apologetics, Philosophy Of Religion etc as it was so different from how I normally thought prior to that. Ive tended to mix it/thomism with a creative vantage point that I believe Ive seen lacking within christian scholastics. There are only a handful of those in christian apologists/philosopher circles I know of with an art background, only Brian Godawa comes to mind right now, I wonder if that's why I find similarities between how you and I think about things. I don't have much respect for the work of Atheists, especially new atheists, but Alex is my favorite Atheist personality, so it's cool to hear you like him too. Liked and subbed btw, only seen these 2 videos but am looking forward to seeing more. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us all.
When I heard Jordan's answer to the Alex's question about capturing Jesus walking out of the tomb with a camera, I asked myself: Could the picture you see depend on your intentions and understanding in some manner? Is a camera a useful tool in perceiving the body of Jesus? As a Christian, I am radically unsure how to answer Alex's question and what to think about it.
No one witnessed Jesus exiting the tomb. The guards observed an angel rolling away the stone. While the act of rolling away the stone and discovering the empty tomb are significant truths and images, they do not imply that Jesus exited the tomb in a grand procession as some icons illustrate. Alex is setting a precondition.
I think Jonathan has given the answer exactly about this topic with the video camera before. I talked about it on my comment in this video. If you find it it might help you.
You would see it with a camera. Not a difficult question.
If Jesus is both fully man and fully divine then the camera MUST work the way it would for a fully man human. You can't get around this.
If the answer to "would the camera capture jesus walking out of the tomb" is no then the resurrection didn't occur. Period. If your faith cant accept this, your faith was false.
If the answer is yes then the resurrection occured.
Refusing to answer just means you are cowardly in your faith in the same way JBP is.
Alex's ability to steel man others perspectives that he disagrees with is the most genuine I've ever come across. Like you I find most atheist/ theist discussions frustrating and annoying as usually they just talk past each other.
On the question of the tomb and the camera: No one witnessed Jesus exiting the tomb. The guards observed an angel rolling away the stone. While the act of rolling away the stone and discovering the empty tomb are significant truths and images, they do not imply that Jesus exited the tomb in a grand procession as some icons illustrate. Alex is setting a precondition.
Doesn't have to be a grand procession, but if you insist that jesus didnt physically walk outside the tomb through the entrance you are not making a cogent argument that is useful to anyone.
You say that as if it's true 😂
@@Reiman33 Jesus did not need to exit the tomb physically. Later in the same gospels, Jesus seems to appear and disappear from one place to the next at will.
@@Reiman33 At this point he is literally materializing and dematerializing. Those are the lines along which I was thinking.
This was a good video and a great topic. Your views tie in nicely on how death becomes mankind’s inheritance rather than the notion of original sin as the thing getting passed down through generations.
The founding of temporality.
If true then genesis 1 makes no sense in context. Temporality began with the first week ending on the sabbath. The events of original sin cannot be where time begins if the Divine Itself was COUNTING DAYS.
No, chronological time would begin at creation, that is distinct from chirotic time. Father Deacon Annanias (@esorem) would be a good one to have on your show, he is an Orthodox Deacon and a philosophy professor. His channel is Patristic Faith.
I felt bad that Alex's argument, about God not following though with the consequences of eating from the tree, passed through and allowed him to claim that the snake was some sensible, critical thinker, enlightening friend. Thank you for the clarification Jonathan, I just wish that you would have been there sitting with them at the moment. Make it happen!
Hello. I would really want to hear your commentary about the subject of "serpent". So, Alex talked about gnostic interpretation of serpent, he even talked about some paralels between serpent and Jesus himself. Could you, please, talk about about this gnostic tradition and, most importantly, what is the difference between this gnostic tradition and orthodox christian views on the same matter? Respect and love from Georgia (the country). Thank you for your amazing work.
A book on Kaballah i have makes the Serpent into Jesus, warning them of the mistake they are making about the tree.
Like most gnostic stuff, it just flips the truth on its head and is only interesting as shallow satire
Yes. I know that. I am an orthodox christian. I just thought that during the conversation between Alex and Jordan, this exact issue was not answered properly and, in my opinion, there's no one betther than Jonathan to address this in the most knowledgable way.
Alex is charismatic but I remember him arguing against a christian apologist with something like "i have a very smart friend who is studying physics in oxford and we talked over a coffee and he said that the universe is possible without God" which is basically "my dad can beat up your dad" level of arguing. Also, he doesn't belive in free will so that automatically disqualifies him from any serious discussion. He also invited Bart Ehrman who's just a jew with hate for Jesus and gave so much credit to his bs, while the guy previously got burried in his debates with serios apologists when he used the same points. His take on JBP and how he's extremely concise in in some aspects but as soon as you ask him about beliving in God he goes "but what do you mean by x,y,z" was really good though. I couldn't help but agreing with him.
Yes
I have experienced and attended childbirth many times and have had a notion that the ''pain in childbirth'', and the degree of such, is in part due to a ''physic/spiritual ''fracture -that separation a women experiences between her body mind and spirit.
Could also be the tearing flesh and stretching of the pelvis to let a big headed human baby out.
This conversation with JP and Alex was so elevated that I feel JP finally met someone that can challenge him intellectually... what a treat must this been for both of them
I want Johnathan to speak to Alex Jones while Alex is high on psychedelics.
Truly, Symbolic
I'd just be happy to see Alex high on psychedelics.
Sigh.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Typo in the second-last point in the black box.
You could fix it in UA-cam just in post by sticking a small black text box over it.
I don’t think people pay enough attention to the augmented nature of what Eve said to the serpent: “God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, _nor shall you touch it,_ lest you die.’ I suspect that one of the meanings intended by this text is to warn about man-made accretions to God’s law.
Perhaps this has been discussed elsewhere before (but I haven't heard it) but I'd like to hear some thoughts on how Adam and Eve supposedly "sinned" by disobeying God and eating the apple when they presumably didn't know yet that "disobedience" was "bad" - because they hadn't eaten the apple yet! This has always perplexed me (whether taken literally or symbolically). They were innocents in the best sense of the word! How could they be expected to not to do something bad or wrong if they really had no understanding what good and bad was? I am not a moral philosopher so I could use some help here. Thanks!
They didn’t “sin” in the sense that they rebelled. As you point out, they were innocent. It was more like living with the consequences of their choice - like if you touch a hot stove you will get burned.
Similarly, all of us are born innocent in the beginning. As we grow up and learn we make mistakes and wander. It’s only Jesus that allows us to find the proper path to return to God.
In that same sense, they also didn't know the meaning of dying, still God said to them that they will die...!
The truth is that they knew the meaning of bad and evil, they just didn't have the experience of it. Knowledge is another word for experience in the Bible.
Somewhat related question. There is no death in Eden, but Adam is put to sleep (a little death) in order for Eve to be made. What is this meant to communicate to the reader?
It is a figure of the death of Christ, from whose side the Church his bride was built (the water and blood are the sacraments of Baptism and the Eucharist)
And if we partake of these sacraments we are really "flesh of his flesh and bone of his bones"
Also, the Church is "the mother of all the living", because outside of her there is no salvation, no eternal life.
That sleep and death are not equivalents. Calling it "a little death" is your addition to the Word. A mortal sin btw.
i was wondering when there was gonna be an intelligent response from christians to jordan not having a good rebuttal to the old "snake as lightbringer" argument.
i'll be looking forward to this. thanks.
In Church tradition there are broadly three takes on this passage. You brought up the literal/symbolic meaning of 'dying you shall die'. Given that symbolism is the focus here that isn't too surprising. But I think the other two interpretations are worth mentioning as well.
The historical/prophetic interpretation is well attested in both pre-Christian Jewish writings as well as the writings of the Church Fathers. Namely, that one thousand years of history are as one day in God's unfolding plan of judgement against sin. Adam died in less than one thousand years, so the limit placed by God was not transgressed.
The other is the contextual/idiomatic interpretation. 'Dying you shall die' is a Hebrew idiom that means something akin to 'doomed' in English. On the day Adam ate the fruit he was under a death sentence. This is how the idiom is used elsewhere in Scripture as well. This is likely the "original intent" of the passage, if we're using a large pair of finger quotes.
I'm curious if you find the other two interpretative traditions valuable.
I was wondering if anyone was thinking the same about that interview. I wasn’t even going to watch because I knew Alex was an a theist and expected a normal pointless debate. However was pleasantly surprised and he did better than many believers in getting to the root of what Jordan actually believes.
Why’d you have to tease me about the serpent being correct and also death being a part of life and then not talk about it 😭
Great video, I learned much from it. I understand the curse much better
Very interesting stuff on death. I've been thinking about this for many years - that is, death being more than just a biological event but also a gradual decay. Never thought about it in terms of multiplicity and unity though.
Pls can u speak more on flipping it back to gathering up from the bottom...some examples pls.
My interpretation of the discussions between Alex and Jordan is that Alex simply wouldn't let him weasel his way out of these basic questions everyone wanted to know.
Nice Geert Wilders-like hairstyle ;)
I wonder what you think about this Jonathan. I'm reading Augustine's second Homily on 1 John and he says, "for every celebration is a celebration of marriage."
Would be interesting to see Jonathan talk with Greg Madsen from Cwic Media or David Butler author of In the Language of Adam.
wow
❤
4:26 skip the intro
Hopefully your friendship with Bob can be restored with the second coming of Christ 🙏
Oh thanks for this video Jonathan 💌I've been swimming in a sea of mediocre content by trying to watch more Alex debating Christians - D'Souza was tackling it live today, just before i type this comment - and its soooo boring. I think it comes a bit from Alex's unwillingness to let go of some important details, but if his interlocutor is willing to not fight an obvious loosing battle, like arguing that a genocide was good for humanity, then we get really fascinating discussions. The thing i like the most about these discussion is, even though i more often then not, keep my beliefs intact, good discussions will provide me with a specific point to dig in that i didnt see before and goes against a tenant of my beliefs.
One of the interesting parts of the discussion between the two of them was when Jordan said "I believe the accounts, but I don't know what the miracle would have actually looked like ", for example feeding the 10,000 or walking on water. I feel like this is a big disconnect between skeptics and religious people and it would be interesting to further elaborate on that
Hey Jonathan, I think you missed one of the questions that were posed to you in the interview (at 1:13:39). In Alex and Jordan’s interview they also questioned why God casts Adam and Eve out of the garden lest they “take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” in Genesis 3:22-23.
My understanding is that partaking of the tree of life would’ve kept Adam and Eve in their sinful state forever, always separated from God. But would love to hear your thoughts on this.
21:51 can you tell me wich Church Father said that?
Bro, you GOTTA talk with Alex again
9:25 - idk if this is useful but what you're describing as "dust" sounds a lot like entropy, and life being the counterpart to that. Consciousness or life is a localized force against entropy, against the natural tendency for things to turn back to "dust" or a higher state of entropy.
👍❤
Jonathan - at 05:08 did you say that there was an ‘ASP that was true?’ I don’t know if it was deliberate but that dual meaning made my head spin 😂
“Aspect” .. you seem to be having a Rorshach moment lol
@@EmilyTodicescu or he was 😉
Jonathan has said before that if you went back in time with a camera stuff would not be exactly as told, so I’m really interested in JP’s historical interpretation of Christ’s resurrection. Which seems to go even further than Jonathan’s views, which is kind of crazy to think about 😂
interesting do you by chance remember the video title where Jonathan mentioned this?
I only remember him saying that there is no description of Jesus standing up in the Gospels and that the disciples did not recognize him at first. I think he said that the resurrection happened but it remains a mystery
@@AlanZornOfficialdamn, I wish. Probably his Santa is real video. But I’ve seen so many that it might be any tbh😅 he’s probably used that example a couple of times, and it’s completely in line with his beliefs. What he said specifically was something along the lines of:
“It’s crazy to hold biblical stories to scientific scrutiny, to try to do a forensic analysis when nobody wrote these stories trying to do that. If you go back in time with a camcorder the video probably won’t match exactly with what the stories said.”
Somewhere around that he says he coincidentally believes some of the stuff actually happened in that scientific way, but it’s not even interesting to talk about it because it doesn’t actually matter.
Sometimes he’s in the comments, hopefully he corrects me if I got that wrong. But yeah, what impresses me is that JP jumped directly to the forensic description of Christ’s resurrection and didn’t use Jonathan’s viewpoint (that I find completely valid) that it doesn’t actually matter, it’s part of our reality, which means it is reality. The scientific actuality of Christ’s resurrection is irrelevant.
@@Michael-vl7eyyeah, I think that was recent. Yes, the whole problem there is understanding that when Jonathan says something actually“happened”, he normally doesn’t mean it in the scientific way. As Santa actually bringing presents to kids.
I think as a Christian we’re called to believe in Jesus’ resurrection even if a new way to look into the past popped up and showed us that Jesus never left the tomb. Something obviously happened and that might be Christ’s resurrection as the spirit that has guided us thus far, and his body is the church, who knows. I think, like Jonathan, it doesn’t actually matter. Jesus came back, he’s the king of kings, and those are facts to the core.
If you don't mind, I'd like to share my take.
Firstly Christ is God and so prior and after is incarnation he was spirit. That means he is omnipresent, just as much as the triune God. While on earth he declared himself (identified himself) as "The way, the truth and the life". He also said to Pilate "They that are of the truth hears my words".
I've noticed a few things about truth. It damns as well as blesses. Those who love lies suppress truth, but then truth eventually rises again. A resurrection.
He who identified as the way, the truth and the life, was "suppressed" to the point of death. But he rose again. A resurrection. The resurrection.
The apostle Paul said of God: In him we live and move and have our being. - in our multiplicity of dimensions as well as God's. So that means Christ's material bodily presence as the lamb of God STILL has an important role to play in spite of all of the above.
Coloca opção para poertuguês a legenda...please?
So the tree of good and bad is basically the tree of platonic forms?
entropy bad. got it.
Dust: 'A mass of things that have no relation to each other.' So basically it is maximal entropy; when God blows his divine breath into the dust and organises it, it becomes alive. Which is close to a definition of 'Life is the principle that delays entropy.' Because it requires and maintains organisation.
Life actually expedites the process of entropy. More energy is lost in the maintainence of life than if that life never existed. Turning sunlight into energy for plants, which then becomes energy for animals, uses more energy than if those plants and animals didn't exist.
Unbelievably refreshing to see someone who understands the levels of depth and complexity at which Jordan and Alex are interacting. I’ve seen so many comments on Alex’s channel bashing Jordan and it’s always unfortunately obvious the commenters don’t understand JP or his views at all.
That doesn’t make him “over complicated” or the commenters “too smart.” It’s as Jordan says, “not his problem.”
Thanks, Jonathan!
People think bashing JBP will make them look or cool or smart.
Maybe too, the first act of mercy?
I appreciate Jonathan’s drawing attention to the process introduced by Adam’s taking the fruit, but not sure that instances of “death” in Hebrew Bible always speak of it this way. If I remember right, the exact phrase is “in that day you will die the death”. An infinitive absolute “dying you will die the death”. To me it seems too stark an expression if the point was to introduce a process
Yes! I remember a conversation in the Lord of Spirits podcast talking about the garments of skin and the expulsion from Paradise being acts of mercy even if we may think of them otherwise.
Could you please do another video on the reversal of the fall through Christ and what it means for us beyond our earthly lives? What does it mean in your opinion to have the divine life restored in us? Sometimes when you and Jordan talk it sounds like a how to better yourself or how to build a better business rather than how to achieve salvation and what that actually means. Maybe you don’t believe this but I personally believe Jesus died a physical death and his body physically resurrected and if there was a video camera it would have shown his body walk out of the tomb on Easter Sunday. lf that happened I think that then has implications for how we interpret scripture.
Many people in the comments seem to have completely ignored or not even heard the part about why it is better to say "good and bad" as opposed to "good and evil"...
The Hebrew phrase is “Tov ve Ra” which could mean “good and bad” or “good and evil” depending on context
@@matityaloran9157 Yeah, it actually can mean more than that, in context I think the best translation is something like misery or calamity, as it is being contrasted with "shalom", which means welfare, peace, prosperity, safety, and so on. Relates to Job's "Yahweh has given, Yahweh has taken away."
Question: should Eve not have listened to the snake? Should the feminine not talk to those on the periphery? What are you saying?
What if it is an account of the origin of (self)consciousness? "You will surely die" signifies that humans have now developed a self that can die. The separation from unity
What is this flickering light in the background?
It's just in your brain bro