I was a firm Premil until I began witnessing to Jehovahs Witnesses and watched a Jrff Durbin video where he confronted them on their end times views and presented a Post mil view which I had never heard of. So I looked into it out of curiosity, and it made so much sense, and he had so much scripture to align with history. I was hooked and I've never loved discussing eschatology more .
I won't be judgemental... but I disagree! Please... hear me out... Postmil believers are preterists. They believe Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation are behind us. The implications of that belief, is that God now "ignores" our little girls growing beards, and our little boys cutting off their genitalia. The truth... our world is the spitting image of "the days of noah", or "the days of lot!" The world isn't getting better, and it was prophecied to get worse. Only in a "spoiled-brat" Western Christian environment can people believe that things are getting better. When the next great persecution begins, the preterists (postmil) will quickly ask God to intervene, and they will forget this nonsense
Dr White ministers to me every time I hear him speak. Regardless of the topic. He introduced me to Reformed Theology ten years ago. Thank you James R White !
Love James White, and appreciate his attitude behind this, but would have loved to actually see a definition of postmillennialism and an evaluation of the critiques. This was mainly a story about how he was influenced by Wilson and Durbin, and how he understood Ps 2.
@@kevinevans8892 Agreed, when I read both of those books I was happy they were trying to defend their position from Scripture. They did a good job writing with clarity and using Scripture (although I ultimately disagree with their hermeneutics and presuppositions).
Those who hold to postmillennialism believe that this world will become better and better (even though it certainly doesn't look like it is) with the entire world eventually becoming “Christianized.” After this happens, Christ will return. However, this is not the view of the world in the end times that Scripture presents. From the book of Revelation, it is easy to see that the world will be a terrible place during that future time. Also, in 2nd Timothy 3:1-5 it says, “There will be terrible times in the LAST days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." IF Christians and thereby Christ were reigning, do we really think we would have over a billion Muslims, who view Jesus as a prophet right below Mohamad, a billion Buddhists, who believe Jesus was an enlightened person, a billion Hindus, who believe Jesus studied yoga and became a guru to the Jews, a billion Catholics who are entrusting their souls to Mary at the hour of their death, a billion atheists, the LGBTQ running rampant, TV shows and movies, that continually blaspheme God and His Christ, drinking, drugs, and colleges that have become propaganda mills that promote Godless, Big-bang theology and Darwinian Evolution, human trafficking, and a host of other sinful deeds that will be eliminated during the reign of Jesus Christ, our Holy God. This is a good example of eisegesis; reading pre-conceived ideas into the text, rather than simply reading what the text is clearly stating.
Things he talked about in this talk, 'Defining Postmillennialism & Why Christians Oppose It': - mountains - the dewpoint in arizona - bugs in texas - taco time - his grandkids - his age - riding his bike - his daughter's podcast - his trip to germany - the rv park - the bubonic plague - debunking global warming - vineyards in northern europe - when you marry someone, it's someone different from yourself - when you have kids, you have to take care of them - when you become a grandparent, you feel old - psalm 2 - balding - his friend debated a homosexual Things he didn't talk about in this talk, 'Defining Postmillennialism & Why Christians Oppose It': - the definition of postmillennialism - why Christians oppose it I can't imagine this guy did any prep work for this talk. The entire thing makes a lot more sense when you imagine he was asked to give the talk 5 minutes before he got on stage. Maybe his friend was supposed to give the talk but bailed out in the last minute to debate a homosexual again. I was amazed there were still people in the audience at the end. I was even more amazed that they were nodding and paying attention. Don't watch if you're trying to learn anything about postmillennialism. If you want tips on prattling from a master and have an hour to waste, this is the one for you.
Yeah, was getting progressively more frustrated as the talk went on. Waiting for the exegesis to begin. Then it was over! Are all post-mil guys such wind bags?
@38:00 I so appreciate this point about getting out of our echo chambers. Until we start consistently engaging with Christians we disagree with, we will never learn to dwell in a one accord (greek = harmony) before the Lord, and we will never bring those falsehoods into the light by staying in our own camp and attacking from afar. This is not about ecumenicalism, but about learning how to reach the world with the beautiful sound of the gospel of Christ with all of its nuances, just like the natural God glorifying music we make. God bless
I am a postmillenialist but I want to push back on something Dr. White said. He said that, if The Father is saying to Jesus, "ask if me and I shall give you the nations as your inherentance" and Jesus asks... Then you have to be postmillenialist. But my understanding of the premil-dispy position on this would be, Jesus doesn't inherit until he returns to earth, and which point God gives to him the wicked nations and he wipes them out or makes them good. Passages about establishing justice are thought to be saying Jesus will once and for all judge all things. That is his establishment of justice. This is where the implication of the text in the original language is so crucial. That establishment of justice is an ongoing process, but even then, the premil position might say "Jesus returns and establishes justice over a period of 1000 years."
I respect James White and am very open to his view but all he basically said in this whole video was "I used to believe this, now I believe that". I was hoping for a more in depth biblical study on the topic which he usually does very well. Respectfully, I don't see what the point of any of this was.
This was addressed to a room of people who were already largely postmillenialists. He wasn’t trying to persuade them to be postmil. He was trying to teach them to temper their eschatology with grace and hope.
47:30 "If we as individuals do not recognize our absolute debtorship to God's grace, not only in saving us but in opening our eyes to His greater purposes and seeing the interconnectedness of the Divine Decree of God and the work of the Trinity and all of these things if we don't recognize and source ourselves fully in Grace, it can become something that's ugly."
TacoTime is amazing. An Idaho favorite. I would always have nothing but good fellowship on the topic with Postmillennials, especially if they like TacoTime. As a new Christian years ago I was 'born' into Dispensational Premillennialism. Once I realized that view couldn't be proved true by using God's word alone, I was on my way out of it to look for the truth. I'm not exaggerating when I say that it took me five years of my own Bible study to unlearn all the nonsense taught by those so-called 'experts', that is, before all of that mess was washed out of my mind. New paradigms are difficult to adopt. Cognitive Dissonance is a real phenomenon. Eventually I came to sit on the fence for a while between Postmillennialism and full preterism, but eventually concluded that Covenant Eschatology is the only logically-consistent eschatological view. Now I'm in the most-hated group again. Oh, well. :)
So many of us were born into Dispensationalism, sadly. I was listening to a pastor in Montana who had taught Dispensationalism for over 30 years when the Lord finally opened his eyes to how wrong it is. He said it took him 7 years to work his way out! Ultimately he became Amill but the is an expert at shredding the lies of Dispensationalism, which he calls Christian Zionism. His name is Chuck Baldwin if you care to listen to him, especially on Israel.
Postmil eschatology students always enter the debate from a wrong position. The main problem with posmil arguing based on things getting better slowly are basic premises: 1. Only God is good 2. Man is unable and unwilling to turn to God, enemies of God, completely evil all the time Therefore, only good can come from God... In other words monergism. Man does not play a huge role in the change of society, if at all. The church does not need to learn. God can change the hearts of man swiftly just as he did with Pharaoh. God's plan is not dependent on a creation that has a vessel with a nature to sin. Actually, God's Kingdom being delivered, doesnt require any action by man at all. Does God not elect us? Call us? Regenerate us? Give us a soft heart to turn to him? Does He not teach, lead and direct us? What of any of that is triggered by us? Our premises show us that the only one at all, who change is dependent on, is God. The rocks could cry out in worship if man does not. Praise God that He did choose us over the rocks. The Kingdom on earth depends on only one factor: 1. How many elect are planned at any given time Since man can come to Christ only if the Father elects him and the Spirit regenerates him, everything hinges on God Himself. God made some for destruction and others for worship. Who says that there will be an extended time when there are only elect? Could it not be that God's elect are scattered throughout the generations and He is reaping them as time goes? Were Moses and Abraham not men? We're they also not totally depraved at one time as you or I once were? Then Moses and Abraham were also only significant because they too were elected into sainthood just as you or I. If God would spread His elect out even through the old testament, then why not through the new? In fact we know this is true. God is the only one who controls when something happens. It doesn't need to be linear or even have a trend. What difference is there with a volatile upward trend or a downward trend that goes up at the very last moment? We see this in the stock market. Do you not collect the same gain on something either way? We could get worse and worse through history, only to have God finish all at once. Is that not what happens in some wars? Have we not seen wars end with a single battle? A drop of a bomb? The idea by students of post mil, that there must be a positive trend, this is a false assumption and not logically sound. I believe the idea is not even worth including in an argument. Furthermore, I hear people talk about Christ "winning" all the time. They make hasty generalizations and wrap a complex thing up into something too simple. Then they put a spin on it so as to trap the other person. Of course Christ wins, has he not already? Has he not defeated death? We're our sins not nailed to the cross? Do demons not tremble in fear? But is "winning" what the argument is really about? God being at war... This has always seemed almost blasphemous to me. God is not in a position to even be at war with anyone. Who can stand against him? God has many more inconsieveable dimensions than anything of creation. Time is not even the same for Him. God holds all power, even Satan himself bows. If God chooses to make all things right with one spoken word at the very end, is he not allowed to do so? Did he not make creation with spoken words? If God created the world in 6 days from nothing, can he not do it again? I say yes, yes He can. This is why we are not to be concerned. We can not predict God, nor can we control Him. When He does something is completely out of our hands. What the shall we do? Fear Him. Stand by the gates with our lamps full and wait. Keep a tidy house and multiply the investment He untrusted with us.
Those who hold to postmillennialism believe that this world will become better and better (even though it certainly doesn't look like it is) with the entire world eventually becoming “Christianized.” After this happens, Christ will return. However, this is not the view of the world in the end times that Scripture presents. From the book of Revelation, it is easy to see that the world will be a terrible place during that future time. Also, in 2nd Timothy 3:1-5 it says, “There will be terrible times in the LAST days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." IF Christians and thereby Christ were reigning, do we really think we would have over a billion Muslims, who view Jesus as a prophet right below Mohamad, a billion Buddhists, who believe Jesus was an enlightened person, a billion Hindus, who believe Jesus studied yoga and became a guru to the Jews, a billion Catholics who are entrusting their souls to Mary at the hour of their death, a billion atheists, the LGBTQ running rampant, TV shows and movies, that continually blaspheme God and His Christ, drinking, drugs, and colleges that have become propaganda mills that promote Godless, Big-bang theology and Darwinian Evolution, human trafficking, and a host of other sinful deeds that will be eliminated during the reign of Jesus Christ, our Holy God. This is a good example of eisegesis; reading pre-conceived ideas into the text, rather than simply reading what the text is clearly stating.
It is not a message of hope and encouragement if it is not true - and I think sadly will leave those who believe this very unprepared to go weather the deception and falling away and the revelation of the antiChrist as Paul outlines in 2 Thess 2:1-12. verse 9: The coming of the lawless one [ie the antiChrist] is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, You need to love the truth to be saved: verses 10 and following “and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
In America the natural progression seems to most often be in this order: 1. Dispensational Premillennialism (because it's the most popular and has the most so-called 'experts' in pulpit, radio, TV, books, and Hollywood movies. 2. Other forms of Premillennialism. 3. Amillenialism. 4. Postmillennialism. 5. Full/consistent Preterism. I've been through the list. Keep studying.
My problem with the post-millennial view is it doesn't fit with the coming of Christ described in Revelation 19-20. You would have to assume that Christ's second coming happened in secret and nobody noticed, and that the beast and the mark of the beast already happened, and that Satan was bound and not deceiving the world for a significant chunk of the last 2000 years, and that there are people walking around that are 1000 years old, and those just don't seem like reasonable assumptions. If it's true that the second coming of Christ will be seen by everyone, and it's true that the millennial reign of Christ happens AFTER the second coming (which is what Revelation 19-20 seems to suggest), then it doesn't seem likely that the post-millennial position is true. I prefer a classic pre-millennial view on eschatology, but I'm open to the idea that I might be wrong. I'm just tired of convoluted arguments built on assumptions, stacked on top of more assumptions, and have decided to just take what the Bible says at face value as far as one reasonably could. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. Guess we'll have to wait and see.
I have nothing but respect for dr. White, wilson, and other postmills but as an amilliniest I do not agree with some inherit assumptions. Yes I do believe that opposition to the church will grow but that does not mean the church will decline. Christ is reigning and His plans for this world and His people are still unfolding I do believe He can come back right now or 10,000 years from now but opposition will still be present and the church will still be growing and Christ will still be reigning
This was great! And absolutely not what I expected to hear from the title! But can I ask… in conclusion, why are Christian’s so hostile to postmil?! Perhaps I missed it, but I didn’t see it laid out blatantly
These folks are dear brothers who labor well in the word but their media arm can't resist a clickbait title. MANY of their videos don't match up well to the title
@@jaquirox6579 to answer your question, because the majority report among evangelical Christians in North America and Great Britain is the Dispey premil framework. Any other eschatology is viewed with jaundiced eyes from individuals who are not aware of any other alternatives. And when they do hear them, they immediately think that you're teaching heresy
James White clearly read “THE GREAT MORTALITY: An Intimate History of the Black Death, the Most Devastating Plague of All Time” by John Kelly. A fascinating book! James White makes a lot of the same claims and arguments that you can find in John Kelly’s book.
I took the California Achievement Test every year. I was testing out at 12 grade plus after 5th grade, so eventually my mom stopped having me tested. I was homeschooled and went to a Mennonite school for a couple of years, which was just like being homeschooled. It was a tiny school and I was the only one in my grade.
When we read scripture, the return of Jesus is nowhere described as a peaceful event where Jesus is welcomed back to Earth to conduct the Final Judgment and usher in the eternal state by a mostly "Christianized" world. We instead read of the return of Jesus as a violent and bloody event where the Son of God goes to war against His enemies and includes the rescue of the remnant of believing national Israel (Zech 12-14, Rev 19).
I don't oppose postmillennialism, per se. I simply don't see it Scripture. I believe Christ is reigning now, with all authority on heaven and on earth, as given to Him by the Father. I believe all of Scripture, including those passages that speak of the victorious reign of the Son, as in Psalm 2, Psalm 110, and 1st Corinthians 15. I also believe that He will make a new heavens and a new earth, as it says in Isaiah 65 and 2nd Peter 3. These are wonderful proclamations of total victory from our reigning King. I simply don't see postmillennialism in those verses. I don't hold ill will against anyone who does, but I don't see it. All I know for sure is that Christ is going to return some day, and it will be glorious!
I believe the same. There are many people I greatly respect that were are Post mil like R.C. Sproul, and B B Warfield, but I just do not see Post mil in scripture. Its not about being optimistic or pessimistic. What do the scriptures say? Through out scripture, when times are good, the Church and Israel were at their worst, just loom at Rev. 3 Church of Laodicea.
I think the one thing Postmillennialism and amillennialism have going for them is that premillennialism is fraught with too many issues, the least of which is what happens to the natural people who have survived the tribulation period and are allowed to enter the millennial kingdom. What happens to these people when they die? Do they go to a Jesus-less heaven? And seeing that premmellinsits teach that only the wicked will partake in the last resurrection after the 1000 years, when will these millennial righteous people be raised? These are practical questions that are rarely discussed by the premil theologians
those who see chapter 20 of revelation as Christ coming back to earth after 1,000 years of basically peace and prosperity for Christianity, this is to begin some time in the future.. hope this helps!
Postmillennialism teaches that at Jesus' glorious ascension to heaven to sit at God's right hand, He fulfilled Psalm 110:1, Psalm 2, Daniel 7:13-14 and other Messianic predictions about the advent of His Kingdom, which has been in existence now for 2 thousand years. They see this as coinciding with Revelation 20 and the millennium. Satan has been severely constricted in his activities, unlike in OT times when he had significantly more latitude in deceiving the Gentile nations (Moab - Chemosh; Philistines - Dagon; Eqgpt - Ra, ect). With the Kingdom, the Gentile nations have the gospel and, as a matter of fact, comprises the largest number of Christians (New Testament Israelites, so to speak) than physical Israel. I hope that helps
@@kevinevans8892as another commenter posted, sounds just like pre mill but just change Israel to earn the church and take away a literal 1000 year reign of Christ
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
There's a deeper issue that most don't want to address - identity. Because theologians for the past 200 years have been hyper focused on the "2 ways to salvation" theory, i.e. jew and gentile - Yea, that'll cause some confusion lol
When I hear "postmillennial" in Dr. White's description of believing all of the Word, I can with integrity, adhering to the entire Word, simply change it to "premillennial" and come to the same conclusions. Why? Because in time Jesus will rule in Person exactly as prophesied during the millennium with a rod of iron over all the nations. Jesus reigns now, and calls us to proclaim His rule over all the earth, everything in, on, and under this world, and that this will be fulfilled when He physically returns. Kiss the Son - His wrath is soon coming. He will come in wrath and establish His kingdom rule. All opposition will experience it. It is now His law over our hearts; it will then be over the nations in law over all the magistrates of all people everywhere. Might I be wrong? Certainly. Might Dr. White whom I love, support, and take what he says seriously? Of course. Perhaps he will salute, as he said, those who got it right if the Lord returns in time and conditions that premillennials see in Scripture. In the meantime, I don't oppose my brothers who see it his way, for we are looking for a great revival together; or even many such revivals until the end of human dominated history.
@@iacoponefurio1915 There is only one spiritual Israel, and the national promises are yet to be fulfilled. I do understand we do not agree on this. Thanks!
If James had a better understanding of passages like Genesis 11:1-9 (the connection to Acts 2), Deuteronomy 4:19-20, 32:8-9, and Psalm 82 (have to wonder if he still reads this the same flawed way), he would have a much better understanding about what Psalm 2 is talking about. He would also have a much deeper appreciation for the Gospel.
In the 1980s James White taught Bible studies in my home. I recall his Alpha Omega ministry when it was based on Indian School on the west side of Phoenix. James began his debating career in Phoenix and I attended many of these events. He was edgy and typically snobbish toward his Christian brothers, many times condescending. James has grown much since those early times. I like these changes in him. He now seems to possess more elder-like qualities described in the Bible yet retained Iacomus Candidum Contra Mundum.
Part 1/2 Sadly, James' first mistake was assuming a "generation" was 40 years ( I know many others did incorrectly) when in Scripture it specifically says "Pass away" or die off. Matthew 24: 32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that He is near-at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." So sadly, like many Eschatology students, we presuppose a definition or understanding and when we make an error in 1 part we throw the whole out. If James had a framework of 1 lifespan where the people born in 1948 will not all pass away before Jesus returns, he would have had a 100+ year view. Not 500 or 1000 but 100 years. We are currently in year 75 so what should we expect? That people born in 1948 are still alive. Then let's look at the signs. First sign. Matthew 24:4-5 4 Jesus told them, “Don’t let anyone mislead you, 5 for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will deceive many. Any evidence for this? www.israeltoday.co.il/read/israeli-rabbi-says-hes-already-holding-meetings-with-messiah/ John 5:43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. israel365news.com/339505/israeli-rabbi-reveals-date-of-messiahs-arrival-according-to-kabbalah/ Now this rabbi got the dates wrong but that's because the year of Jubilee seems to be 2025 and 2075. Every 50 years. Second sign. And you will hear of wars and threats of wars, but don’t panic. Yes, these things must take place, but the end won’t follow immediately. 7 Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. Now Christians misquote this passage all the time. The key here is "kingdom against kingdom" In the OT especially Daniel 2, 7, etc. Kingdom refers to "world empires" Daniel 2: 36 “This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. 37 You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38 and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all-you are this head of gold. 39 But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. So Jesus is saying that in this time there would be more than 1 world empire and they will war against each other. Right now we have the US, China, Russia, NATO, BRICS, etc. as world empires. Are any of these threatening to go to war with each other? Absolutely. Which we call WW3, which there hasn't been a world war of empires since BEFORE 1948. Funny how Jesus called this 2000 years ago. It also means there will be a WW3. Jesus goes on. "There will be famines and earthquakes in many parts of the world. 8 But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come." So WW3 will not be the end but the beginning of the end. Yet people will panic and think the world is going to end. We are not to be afraid because all this has been told to us in advance. 9 “Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers. 10 And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. 11 And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. 12 Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. ...14 And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come. now many Christians think this is about us preaching the Gospel to the world. That's not the biblical narrative, it says we are a mess, 1 Timothy 4:1-5 adopting false doctrines and teachings and we are. Revelation 14: 6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth-to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people- 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” I'm sure the LORD will use social media and the internet of this event to bring the Gospel message but it won't be via us, the Church. The problem with many Christians today is that they don't have a biblical framework. There are a few distinct biblical themes that point to this time in history. I would argue that Premillennialism dates back to Moses 3000 years ago based on Genesis 1 and 2. This isn't a new framework. It's extremely old. But doubt and questions and simply a lack of resources that weren't available until our time has blinded us. We are told work 6 days and rest for 1 the Sabbath why? Jesus is the LORD of the Sabbath. Matthew 12: 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” The Israelites were told to work the Land the LORD gave them for 6 years and rest the land for 1 year. Why? Because He is the LORD of that land. Leviticus 25: And the Lord spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When you come into the land which I give you, then the land shall keep a sabbath to the Lord. 3 Six years you shall sow your field, and six years you shall prune your vineyard, and gather its fruit; 4 but in the seventh year there shall be a sabbath of solemn rest for the land, a sabbath to the Lord. The Jews and early Christians believed that our time of dominion from Adam to the Messiah (2nd Coming) is 6000 years + 1000 years of Sabbath; rest in His Kingdom. Because He is the LORD of time from beginning to end. Early Christians: Barnabas, AD First Century “Therefore, children, in six days, or in six thousand years, all the prophecies will be fulfilled. Then it says, ‘He rested on the seventh day.’ This signifies at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus, He will destroy the Antichrist, judge the ungodly, and change the sun, moon, and stars. Then He will truly rest during the Millennial reign, which is the seventh day.” Epistle of Barnabas 15:7-9 Commodianus, AD 240 “We will be immortal when the six thousand years are completed.” Against the Gods of the Heathens 35 “Resurrection of the body will be when six thousand years are completed, and after the one thousand years [millennial reign], the world will come to an end.” Against the Gods of the Heathens 80 Victorinus, AD 240 “Satan will be bound until the thousand years are finished; that is, after the sixth day.” Commentary on Revelation 20.1-3 Methodius, AD 290 “In the seventh millennium we will be immortal and truly celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.” Ten Virgins 9.1 Johnson, Ken. The End-Times by the Ancient Church Fathers (p. 11-12). Judaism. www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/607585/jewish/Significance-of-the-year-6000.htm "The Talmud tells us that this world, as we know it, will last for six thousand years, with the seventh millennium ushering in the cosmic Shabbat, the Messianic Era. Six days a week we work, and on the Shabbat we rest and enjoy the fruits of our labor; the same is true with millenniums. However, it is certainly possible for Moshiach (Messiah) to come earlier. And we believe, hope, and pray each day that this is the day when Moshiach will come... So yes, we don't know exactly when Moshiach will come, but we do know that it will be before the year 6000. (Currently, as I write this response, we are in the year 5768 [2007-8].)" So the Jewish calendar today says "5784" which we know the date is wrong based on the New Testament. But the concept of counting to the year 6000 is biblical. What makes Bible prophecy so powerful is not only the events that are predicted in advance but also when they will occur and the order they will occur. (Continued in Part 2)
A generation is 70 years, with strength 80 years. “The days of our lives are seventy years; Or if due to strength, eighty years, Yet the best of them is but toil and exertion; For it is soon cut off, and we fly away.” (Psalms 90:10, TS2009)
I think you are taking John 5:43 wrong. Our Messiah's name isn't J,sus. Is that the Hebrew name his momma called him? 2 billion christians and nearly the same number of Muslims are all waiting for J,sus. Now reread that name. Narrow path??
The post-mill position is simply a position that is one step closer to the truth. If you made it this far, you have come a long ways. But keep going, don’t stop. It is actually not 100% correct, but close. 👍
@@jeremyjean-pierre4977 Postmil is incompatible? It seems like the only one that actually accounts for the interpretation of the dream. The kingdom of God (the Church) enters the world as a tiny pebble 2000 years ago, and yet that insignificant rock ends up shattering the kingdoms of the world (Rome, Babylon, Persia, etc) and is now in the phase where it grows and grows and is becoming a great mountain that fills the whole earth. Premil usually has the kingdom of God stuck in heaven and when it finally comes to earth, it comes fully formed, not something that grows and fills the earth like Daniel 2 teaches. In fact, depending on the person, it pops into the world fully formed and then dwindles after 1000 years until there is a great apostasy because for some, not even God is a good enough king to keep a kingdom together for more than 1000 years.
I appreciate James Whites heart and Testimony, andly what he says about alot of Premilenial teaching is right. However, I would say I dont start from the bottom up, in the weeds so to speak, but from the top down. And read passages like Psalms two with great enthusiasm, and expectency both in the sense of Gospel spread and Jesus reigning bodily on this earth.
People like Dr James White are proof that God always gives us a way out from temptation and darkness. In this case, we are strengthened by the preaching of God's servant, and thankfully this one does not bend to the pressures of the world's wicked culture. 1 Corinthians 10:12-13 ESV [12] Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. [13] No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
@robertstephenson6806 From what I gather on premil, at some point Jesus will return and establish a physical kingdom, but after 1000 years it falls apart and there is a great apostasy and the final battle. Why does that happen? Or is that wrong?
@robertstephenson6806 _"...Jesus returns and establishes the millennial kingdom (Ezekiel 37-46), _*_then Armageddon,_*_ then the earth is cleansed with fire..."_ And what is Armageddon? How does that come about?
@robertstephenson6806 So on the one hand, Jesus himself is on earth running the most perfect kingdom ever, and yet he is so terrible at it that there is a mass defection of people who go over to Satan's side in order to join his army and attack Christ. And this is not a failure. Make it make sense.
Well, unfortunately Jesus predicted all things will grow worse and worse, peoples hearts will grow cold, and there will be a big falling away before the Lord returns... This is opposite of postmillennialism. I do like that James finally quit ducking the question and took sides but he fell on the wrong end of things. Jeff is very persuasive but the two hermeneutics they (Jeff and James) hold are diametrically opposed. Consistency is is very important. James, being a literalist in hermeneutic has just adopted an allegorical eschatological hermeneutic. One of two things will happen, James will either allow this conversation to fall to the side, or he will drop one hermeneutic: the literal hermeneutical methodology one must have in order to arrive at Calvinistic interpretations, or the allegorical hermeneutical methodology one must have in order to arrive at Postmillennialism. The two hermeneutics are diametrically opposed. John MacArthur is also the one I saw to first expose the oxymoron of a "Calvinistic Postmillennialist."
Issue I always have with premillennialism, beyond just the Scriptural issues and hostility opposing it brings (which itself suggest its producing bad fruit) is the logical inconsistency of the position, a premil is putting more value on themselves and their time where they are then could ever be warranted, in most cases its people who have never been to places where Christianity never really was, or where Christianity is working out in a young church, or where there stands a continual strong church, you go to China and your eschatology can no longer work as premil, or much of Africa. It seems more that the modern premil application formed as a result of the many elements of laziness and selfishness then out of a reading from the Bible, if you're looking for an element of the text to tell you things, you weren't being honest with the text and are cherrypicking it to support a point. I often hear premils get into things like Revelation 19 and 20 or Matthew 24, except none of those Scriptures can be read in a way that demonstrates that because the claims don't even imply a premil interpretation, in the best of cases what it says is millennial-agnostic, you can't prove a position and if you're gonna claim it you're being led by a lie and not by the Scriptures. If you trust Sola Scriptura, then you should be able to abandon all knowledge, to become a fool, including all theology and eschatology, in order to become wise. If you aren't capable to do this, then you aren't observing the Scriptures with sincerity, you are seeking an agenda out of it, you're not following in that case by the Holy Spirit. If you ask me, I don't truly care about millennialism, I am totally willing to abandon postmil when I read the Scriptures, it doesn't change anything if I do because its not doctrine and thus abandoning it is trivial. But modern premil makes it doctrine, which I suggest is why it produces bad fruit, what you make doctrine makes it inseparable from God's Word, and its why they have to fight so hard, when you make non-doctrine into doctrine, you are then required to defend it to the death, thus those who do this find premil more important then Sola Fide. If you truly trust the Holy Spirit, you must give up everything, all knowledge, all wisdom, so that God can educate you, you must not foremost value the words of another man before the Word God gave, only afterwards can you investigate the words of others. This is part of a humility and grace that understands that I shouldn't even have a gift to read God's Word, but He allowed me this, so I should be honest in myself. And thus I don't take any millennialism as doctrine nor do I read the text with any of it in mind, and it most certainly isn't something I'm gonna beat someone over the head as if it would save them. But those who do, you are certainly violating every command God gave on love, you are violating the Commandments directly.
Firstly, I also get baffled when people act as though the timing of the millennium is some essential part of the faith. It has nothing to do with our Justification, nor serves as instruction in our Sanctification; it's tertiary at best. I think it's just fun to engage and have conversations with others who are mature enough to recognize that. You mention the "modern pre-mil application", and it seems to be that which you are critiquing. This is actually one of the issues I run into when having discussions on the millennium. As a historic premil I find that most people conflate my position with dispensational pre-mil (which is a 19th century invention). Dispensational pre-mil is very modern and has a myriad of problems that require the twisting of scripture, not the least of which is dispensationalism's false dichotomy between the Church and Israel. The millennium is in the category of prophecy, and as such, I agree that it's not very wise to put hope an any given interpretation. We are told specifically to not despise prophetic utterance, but to test it. Since the Millennium is inseparably intertwined with the Second Coming of Christ, we'll really only know which position is right once He returns. I see the dangers of the extremes of both positions: The extreme of modern, dispensational, premillennialism is that people often place their hope in a pre-trib rapture and are left completely unprepared to trust Christ through real hardship, were it to occur. Not only this, but many become so preoccupied with watching for potential prophetic signs that they end up living lives of fear and following conspiracies and con-men rather than the Word of God. The extreme of post-mil is that through dominion theology the people of God are convinced they are sure to take over society and make a world that is Christianized for Christ to return to and rule over, leaving them blind toward looking at potential prophetic events and therefore unprepared to face the Great Tribulation if the premil position is true due to proleptic nature of prophecy. Regardless of which position is correct, it doesn't change what we as believers are called to do: Glorify God by spreading the Gospel and being and making disciples within the sphere of influence that God has given us, regardless of the world around us. So, as of now, I remain a pre-millennial; watch for the coming of Christ as I seek to serve Him; and, honestly, kind of hope that I'm wrong and end up pleasantly surprised that we don't have to go through a one-world regime that is directly, outwardly, and violently opposed to Christ and His people; though I'm not saying that would necessarily happen in our lifetime. Anyway, I honestly just loved to see someone taking a strong but balanced stance, and ultimately admitting that it's the scriptures that are right. I don't know you, but I love you. Early in my Christan walk, I came across a quote that shaped my studies, and I think you'll appreciate it: "Our object should not be to have scripture on our side but to be on the side of scripture; and however dear any sentiment may have become by being long entertained, so soon as it is seen to be contrary to the Bible, we must be prepared to abandon it without hesitation." - William Symmington
@@CrimKazanawa Yes, while I don't agree with the premil perspective, even of the dispensationalist I've never once even considered calling them heretics or apostates because of it, my issue is more in line with what Dr. White often says when he was pointing out folks were heading towards such. I say the same, it often leads you into a heretical or apostate path and even if I could not dissuade someone Biblicalyl from that path, the least of what I can do is warn them and warn them by the Scriptures. My position with everything I do has always been to go back to the Scriptures, that every position I take must foremost be something I can point back to the Scriptures and any topic that must be brought up among Christians for serious debate must be something I can absolutely prove in the Scriptures. When it comes to historical premil vs. postmil or even amil, the difference is usually minutia not really worth even discussing in my opinion. I share a similar perspective on Paedobaptism, despite being a Baptist, I see it as each individuals calling, whether any of us are right is not something we have yet been given, or may ever be given, God very well might be calling us to different minds for His purposes, so why even consider stirring divisions among the fellowship of the Church? This mindset, alongside many elements connected to it, (for theology is not compartmental but afflicts every parcel of life) has made me come to what I call anti-denominational, not just nondenominational, but indignant and completely opposed to the very idea of denominational divides among the body of the Church. (which is founded on the principals of no divisions in the Church found in 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Galatians, Romans, and constantly implicated in the Gospels and demonstrates in the Old Testament) Anyhow the principals for which I speak for discernment among so claiming brothers and sister must be principally on things that by exegesis I can demonstrate in the Scriptures, things for which God outright says to us that such people are in fact discerned from the Church. While this allows me to make rational argumentation extended from the Scriptures it is merely described as reaching the logical conclusion of the Scriptures for which I still must be able to point back to. As an example I openly and constantly address problems with the historical consideration of Genesis as actually happening because without it the logical conclusions say that Moses at best was a liar and at worst didn't even exist, and in John 5 it further clarifies that Jesus could not be believed without Moses who wrote of Him. Even more when we are not to add or remove anything given in the Scriptures which is iterated numerous times in Old and New Testament. Dispensationists have a problem with doing this, adding details that are not so specific, same to those who reject all of Genesis, especially 1-10, as being a historical fact. The Scriptures do not give that leeway and those who do such must be warned against. (and even then I may never call them apostates nor heretics, but at the least it disrupts faith and easily leads them to apostasy, heresy, or even total abandonment) But those who merely suppose a case of saying they think it is one way or another, which doesn't change the production of their fruit, which does not describe compelled requirements to one way or another beyond Salvation in Faith Alone, Sola Fide, taught by the Scriptures Alone, Sola Scriptura, if these things are given, I have nothing to even address in the brotherhood. For it is those who change the doctrines and truths of the Scripture, and in turn reject Sola Fide entirely, they are the ones I will address. And for why I see that anything beyond that case should not really even be debated is because of what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12, a body shares parts that commit to different roles, and these different roles have different callings and thus perform different behaviors. How this is described I don't think is limited to just office positions in the Church but it applies even more broadly that the Church is made of individual members who see things distinctly yet still by faith. And in this faith they have different callings that do no matter to faith but perform different purposes and accomplish different tasks for the sake of God. Not that He needs them to but that He wants them to and thus by the Holy Spirit He guides them to. Its not a case that there is no objective truth to this, but that what we are given to know is given for specific purposes and that which we don't is deliberately shrouded in mystery for our sakes. So for whatever purpose it serves, our difference of mind is I think part of God using our individual distinctions for a good purpose we don't have a right to criticize of each other unless we believe it violates doctrines and truth, in which case it must be addressed according to the Scriptures. The same too applies to the many denominations, which should designate different ideas of the church's resolution, not different or higher authorities to the local church. And that is why I am also anti-denominational, the divisions should've been for classification purposes, not for division and authority purposes. Each church is a local body and should be independent I argue with that, shared in a unified worship for God and a desire for His purposes. And though I be anti-denominational, I would not even call such things apostasy let alone heretical, but I do think it is a ignorance or even outright rejection of a calling from God which is destined to greatly harm many members of the Church body. (in such a way I aim to lovingly, and rationally, fight the human nature common among those who are making denomination authorities corrupted by the fleshly nature of man) I have much more I could say on this, I love discussion and arguing the topic, but it'll start to waver on many topics and become a bit rant-like, so I'll leave it there. (though I did kinda do that, but know I could and have gone on for a lot longer before)
Why is it that brothers and sisters in Christ have some sense that an apology is expected by some for our open friendship with each other - especially when that friendship crosses denominational and sectarian lines?
9:48 Here’s my eschatology of hope. Titus 2 verse 13 (KJV) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Im not dogmatic about eschatology but I simply cant get on board postmilleniallism. It completely ignore vast swaths of scripture. There are holes in every viewpoint but the premillenial views at least attempt to address the tons of verses about 3.5 years, rebuilding the temple and sacrifices, mark of the beast, 7 bowls of wrath, Jesus wiping out his enemies in one giant swoop, etc., etc.
If we are still early in church history then we still have thousands of years left of death and evil things like child molestation and cancer and war and I have no hope each day of being with Christ unless I die by the aging process which almost always is slow and degrading or if I die suddenly or get cancer or something else that would cause pain to those who love me But if my eschatology is right each day I wake up I have the hope of being with Christ and all of His church being with Him and rescued from the pains and trials and tears of this present evil age and this in no way hinders my motivation in service to Him or discourages me from living well wise and pleasing to Him but in fact it motivates me to do so and so all the premill believers I know live like today may be the day but prepare and plan for the future if it’s not
Huh? I don't think I follow you. Are you saying the Christians 2000 years ago had no hope because Christ's return was still ~2000 years off given your (right) eschatology? That's what you seem to say about Christians today should Christ's return not be for another 2000+ years. I don't see how that matters or makes your position better. Otherwise, I agree with the last bit about living like a postmil. Premil believers, don't put all your hope in Christ returning so soon that you don't bring enough oil to last until the groom comes. Hope Christ returns soon, but lay down a foundation for your grandchildren and great grandchildren, etc, that will be ready for Christ to return 2000+ years from now.
RE the 'multi-hair-colored people screaming and screeching in state houses for trans rights today', around 48:10: Agreed, we are not better than anyone of those people. Us believers were given the free gift of being able to understand God's Word, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. However, has the Gospel gone out, from our lips, to these 'multi-hair-colored people'? Have we believers loved on them like God first loved on us?
Those who hold to postmillennialism believe that this world will become better and better (even though it certainly doesn't look like it is) with the entire world eventually becoming “Christianized.” After this happens, Christ will return. However, this is not the view of the world in the end times that Scripture presents. From the book of Revelation, it is easy to see that the world will be a terrible place during that future time. Also, in 2nd Timothy 3:1-5 it says, “There will be terrible times in the LAST days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." IF Christians and thereby Christ were reigning, do we really think we would have over a billion Muslims, who view Jesus as a prophet right below Mohamad, a billion Buddhists, who believe Jesus was an enlightened person, a billion Hindus, who believe Jesus studied yoga and became a guru to the Jews, a billion Catholics who are entrusting their souls to Mary at the hour of their death, nearly a billion atheists, the LGBTQ running rampant, TV shows and movies, that continually blaspheme God and His Christ, drinking, drugs, colleges that have become propaganda mills that promote Godless, Big-bang theology and Darwinian Evolution, human trafficking, and a host of other sinful deeds that will be eliminated during the reign of Jesus Christ, our Holy God. This is a good example of eisegesis; reading pre-conceived ideas into the text, rather than simply reading what the text is clearly stating.
Think of how many people have been saved through The Late Great Planet Earth (I am one of them). Dr. White, you don't think the Bride of Christ can become spotless and holy through the intense pressure, persecution, and calamity of the end times? Becoming holy is supported by Premil, not Postmil. We aren't all pre-trib...and even if we were, there will be much persecution before the last 7 years--and is already.
It's funny. I have read and listened to multiple people who claim to "define" Post-millennialism. I still have no idea which scriptures they are using and how they're interpreting them. It seems to be a big secret that is used to get people to keep clicking on videos that offer nothing. Sorry James White, I have listened to you multiple times and come away with 0 insight.
To be honest, I've noticed that from just about all the positions. Premil holders often assume their view is obvious from this or that passage, but when I read it coming from a postmil perspective, it seems to say the opposite of what they need it to say. For example, I don't get why many premil view Romans 9-11 as so favorable to their position when Paul seems to explicitly bring up their assumption about Israel in order to refute it. Or I just saw a comment about Daniel 2 being incompatible with Postmil, whereas I see postmil as the only position that does that chapter justice. But from the other side, I don't know what is or is not obvious about my position and understanding of scripture if viewed from a premil angle. And the way these views are formed, they are bigger than any one verse or passage, but often come out of very different ways of reading scripture. If you are familiar with amil, you will know most of the scriptural proofs Postmil uses as well. It might be more helpful to ask specific questions.
change the title of the video, it's not what is. James White was just talking why it make it sense in terms of Church History and Scripture but never gave a definition and why people opposed it.
AI will change his mind..thousands of year from now, we would be cyborgs. I’m a post trib guy but I’m not at all dogmatic on this subject.Irenaeus, has a great comment.. "But when the time has arrived, and the prediction has come to pass, then the prophecies have a clear and certain exposition"
Dr. White quoted, "Ask of me and I will give you the nations"...nations is goyim, meaning Gentiles, as individuals). Are you saying that all Gentiles are going to be saved, therefore that supports Postmil? No, I don't need to be PostMil just because this verse is true. I don't think that verse means what you think it means.
30 minutes in. No bible verses. No solid arguments yet. Just perspective and personal narrative. This needs a different title so that some of us can hear the systematic case for post-mill…
You grew up Disp/Premil....and slid into something you can't explain then spend an entire hour or so trying to define it? Call a spade a spade...your younger family members won't invite you too the cool parties unless you switch.
I really appreciate Dr. White shares his long apathy for eschatology at the start... I have listened to him for years and immediately cringed at the vid title!
Brother James is well grounded in theology. I think he will come back to the Dispensational Premillennial side of things before long. You cannot have an allegorical hermeneutic in regards to eschatology and a literal interpretation with everything else. Either the Calvinistic hermeneutic or the Allegorical hermeneutic will eventually be cast aside... John MacArthur hath spoken it!!!! 😎
@chrisc7579 If your comment is meant to be sardonic humor, you nailed it. But the likelihood of Dr. White coming full circle to dispensationalism has to be miniscule... are you familiar with its origin, namely Friar Manuel Lacunza?
@@brettschlee7090 just to be clear, you think the origin of dispensationalism in its current form (historical dispensationalism) is from Friar Manuel Lacunza? 1731-1801?
@@chrisc7579 Of course; J. N. Darby learned Spanish to absorb Lacunza's book "The Coming of the Messiah in Majesty and Glory" better. His plan to shift Protestant focus/identification away from the Pope as antichrist is ingenious, in a Satanic kind of way.
@@chrisc7579 dispensationalism came about in 1830. John Nelson Darby's creation with the assistance of one Margaret McDonald who attended Edward Irwin's church, I hope I mentioned the correct name. In any case, dispensationalism is a failed eschatology. Too many failed prophetic suggestions (e.g., Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth's 1988 speculation) .
What I gleaned from this presentation: Those who adhere to postmillennialism use that word outside of the definition of the word within it - millennial. Postmillennialists have no intent to mean anything relating to a 1000 year time period. Really hoped this PhD would have used Scripture to define postmillennialism and why he believes it.
Yes. The hyper focus on the 1000 years is a very modern trend (in the last ~150 years or so), and post- "millennialism" is much older than that. Given that it only appears in one book, it is a weird thing to make the end all and be all of one's end times philosophy. Some Postmil do see it as more literally 365250 days or there abouts, but many others view it as a similar timeframe that Peter speaks of for the final judgement in 2 Pe 3 when explaining why Jesus isn't being slow to return.
Yeah thanks, your nonsense only works because we didn't know classic history as well in the 90s during all that Left Behind crap. Ignoring the destruction of Israel not 40 yrs after the death of Christ allows you to come to your view. Ignoring Nero Caesar in 666. Ignoring why the Gnostics form in the descendants of Ishmael (the nations mentioned in Revelation are the nations surrounding Israel aka the Muslims now). Your view is essentially the Muslim end time world view just flip the good guys and bad guys. The problem is you are also OK and frankly want the world to burn and you want us to ignore the intentional attempt to fulfill prophecy in refounding Israel. Why fight anything? Just accelerate right? The worse it gets the faster we get to Jesus' return right? You can tell Him how you did nothing and that was all part of the plan right? We should have just let Islam take over Europe in the 7th century and the Vikings to take the British isle's right? I mean accelerate...more non belief and evil the faster we get to Jesus right? Which one really sounds like a idea sent from Satan and which one sounds like God?
Postmils often take passages that speak about the new heavens and new earth after Christ returns and apply it to their earthly millennium before Christ returns. I believe this is where they err a lot of the time.
@@IronFire116 people do say that and it’s heresy. But I didn’t say you said that but you did say he returned in 70AD. Please elaborate. Are you saying he returned in judgment in 70AD?
@@adamcarpenter1869 Are there any denominations or creeds that say he physically returned in 70 ad? I'm truly asking. Mark 13:26, the Son of Man came on the clouds before that generation passed.
And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. Luke 17:26-30 NKJV talking about puzzle pieces not fitting. How does this fit in a postmil view? As I recall the earth wasn't full of righteousness in Noah's day.
Premillennialism assumes there will be rebels living in an earth with the risen Christ. Even as a former Premillennialist, that aspect of this eschatology used to confuse me. What also confused me was this: what happens to the natural saints (those without their resurrected bodies) who dies? Seeing that Jesus is on the earth, where do these people go? Is it to a Jesus-less Heaven? 0:08
@@kevinevans8892 Futurism is nonsense. Futurists have taken all prophetic passages and thrown them into the most distant future possible even though plenty of passages contain a lot o details that can only pertain to a very distant PAST. They have it all backward but they're proud of their error .
With all respect, you never even defined the term let alone defend the position from scripture., You shared Psalms 2 as a defense of your position but never explained HOW Psalms 2 supports your position of postmill... I am STILL waiting for someone to actually defend this position from Scripture.
@@iacoponefurio1915 White is wrong about eschatology and this was painful to listen to... 12 minutes in and he's still fumbling. He does the same with islam. He should stick to his area of expertise
Well, as a postmillennial fulfilled-covenant preterist, I can say that I respectfully disagree with you. But I can live with that. However, I must also advise you that we agree on far more issues than we differ. I love to hear your messages.
Dr. White claims that dispensationlists don’t use the same hermeneutic for the Trinity as they do the millennium and the rapture etc. but there’s no demonstration of what those hermeneutics are and what Bible verses he’s referring to.
But isn’t postmill the damsel suffering from main character syndrome 😂 and a terrible storyline? Does the bride start ruling and reigning before king’s return? The bride maketh herself ready, doesn’t get the whole kingdom all ready and take the throne before the coronation🤦 Look forward to the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ like Titus👍
Part 2/2 So how can we know? Genesis 2: 15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Now we know Adam ate. Did he die in the next 24 hours? No. Genesis 5:5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died. No one lived to see 1000. Adam lived from year 1- year 930 not 1000, not to "Day" 2. He died in that "day" as the LORD said he would. Adam dies end of Day 1. End of Day 2 the LORD goes to Abraham year 2001. David in year 3000 and Jesus is just before year 4000 since 70-75 AD is year 4000. Year 6000 is 2070-2075 about then. This is a study but it's not that difficult what messes us up is the context. For example, In Genesis 7-8 we see the biblical calendar. Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." 2nd Month 17th Day. Genesis 8: 3 And the waters receded continually from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days (150 days) the waters decreased. 4 Then the ark rested in the seventh month, the seventeenth day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat." 7th Month, 17th Day. (5 months later =150 days means each month is 30 days). Our calendar is 365.25 days per year and in Genesis, it's 360 days per year. So Adam did live 900+ years even by our calendar. (930 years x 360 days =334,800 days. Our calendar would show Adam as living 916 years at 365.25 days per year). So when we apply our calendar of BC and AD to everything we mess up the biblical calendar a little. This is why this extensive biblical calendar says we are past the year 6000. amazingbibletimeline.com/ This 5 days per year seems like a slight detail but if we apply this 360 day calendar from Adam and Eve to the destruction of the Temple (70AD or year 4000 from creation) and then switch to our 365.25 After the destruction we'd have a gap of 57 years (Adam and Eve to The destruction of the Temple 4000 years at 360 days per year =1,440,000 days. Which would be 3,942.50 of our years.) This is why we lose hope, for us 57 years is a long time but we're talking about a 6000 year period which the enemy has had to distort calendars, cause doubt, and develop alternative theories. What the LORD has done is given us clues along the way to readjust our calendars so we have a clearer image. We know based on all available evidence and resources that humans can live a max of 115.5 some about then and 1 that claims to be 122. www.unilad.com/news/health/maximum-age-humans-can-live-to-science-296127-20240214 So from 1948+122 years = 2070AD. But Jesus didn't die and rise again in 70AD He died and rose again in 32AD. We are to watch for the signs and Isrsel being reborn as a nation was A massive sign to help us understand the window had been opened. Jesus also says in Matthew 24:21-22 NLT 21 For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. 22 In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones. If Jesus waits to the year 6000 we will have caused our own extinction. This is what He's saying. So in fact, all these things I mentioned at the top is the LORD's way of showing us where on the timeline we are. Now you can believe whatever you choose. I am simply here to try to clarify the topic a little and try to help with the first step. Premillennialism is a 3000-year-old view going back to Moses in the first 5 books of Scripture. That history shows that from Adam to Jesus is just under 4000 years and that the destruction of the Temple was in the year 4000. That we are not quite 2000 years from the destruction of the Temple but we can't say Jesus could return 500 or 1000 years from now. Or as I heard recently, it's been 2000 years since Jesus and it could be 2000 years more, we just don't know. This is a false teaching. We think that the LORD is slow that somehow because of some simple errors we throw out the whole view. Many Christians I also think that if the Premill view is correct that somehow Jesus's return is a loss for us. It makes me wonder how many believers in the OT must have debated that the Messiah must not really die, that those passages must have meant something else. Here's why I do this. I believe that WW3 and terrible times are coming because of what Jesus said. My concern is that many Christians will fall away from the faith because they haven't considered this view a biblical one. I would much rather be wrong and look foolish then not say something and have Christians lose faith in the LORD because events in the world don't match their image of Eschatology. Take care. I hope this helps.
So where do I go to get an expositional teaching of the Book of Revelation? Daniel? Zachariah? That is verse by verse that explains it in a Post Millennial understanding? Could it be that unlike the Premillennialist that try for an expositional teaching of these books, thus causing some disagreements Post Millennialist just simple throw their hands in the air "well it doesn't mean that" so they don't try? I don't know. However I have not heard the verse by verse teaching from you guys yet on Revelation.
Bruce Gore has a very in depth study of Revelation on his channel, the playlist is 60 videos long if you are genuinely interested in a very detailed study of the postmil preterist understanding. I'm not sure about this particular series, but I believe a lot of the stuff on his channel is adapted from his university courses on Biblical topics, though given in a bit more informal a setting. ua-cam.com/play/PLYFBLkHop2anlJ9wrDXdhugr95AJ3dMKA.html The types of resources you want are out there if you are willing to look. I think its more that premil, and especially dispensationalism, has had an overinflated sense of importance of the doctrine of end times, plus it is more sensationalistic, so it's a lot easier to find and in more demand.
If you want to know the method of interpretation that most accurately lays out what the reformers and Puritans actually believed, then I’d recommend the longest and most exhaustive writing on the apocalypse that I know of, which is E.B. Elliot’s Horae Apocalypticae.
David Chilton's Days of Vengeance and Kenneth Gentry's He Shall Have Dominion and Before Jerusalem Fell are good reads on the Postmillenarian scheme. Look also for Biblical Hermeneutics by Milton Terry or Apocalypse I think the title of his book is
I’d like some good sources of information opposing theonomy. Personally I don’t believe theonomy will ever change the world. Only the preaching of the gospel
@@Matthew-bu5pq Amen. The Gospel is what brings His enemies under His feet. They stop being enemies and become friends. It's a message of reconciliation. Not achieved by theonomy crusade. Calvin had his opposers burnt at the stake. His followers can be nasty. Love wins, not Judaistic Sharia law
@@mjack3521 the only person burned under Calvin's jurisdiction was a heretic named Michael Servetus. And theonomy and postmillennialism are not tied together, for a lack of a better term. Classical postmillennialism had nothing to do with theonomy, which I think was created by Rousas John Rushdonny in the 20th century. You can be Postmillenarian like Sproul and Mathison without adhering to Christian reconstruction like Chilton and Gentry
@@mjack3521 and furthermore, theonomists don't teach that theonomy will convert people to Christ. They simply believe that once converted to the Faith via the gospel of Jesus Christ, the nations will follow biblical law. What you claimed is really a misrepresentation of what theonomists teach. I know, I have read Greg Bahsen, Gentry, Chilton, DeMar and Rushdoony, James Jordan and Peter Leithart
Still waiting for the definition of postmillennialism. I love James White and listen to him all the time, but postmillennialism still doesn't make any sense and he didn't even seem to try to convince me of this doctrine in this video. I wonder how much he actually believes in this. I appreciate how gracious he is towards other eschatological views.
Postmillennialism is the view that the current church age coincides with the millennium. At the death, burial and glorious resurrection of Jesus Christ, Satan was, in a sense, bound (Revelation 20:1-3). The Kingdom of God that Jesus brought into the world at His First Advent (Colossians 1:13) is really the millennial reign of Christ, Who now reigns in the heavens at the right hand of God the Father. The millennium is now 2000 years and counting. Unlike the Old Testament age in which mainly Israel served Yahweh -- the true and living God -- God is now served throughout the entire globe by millions of Gentiles -+ something that was almost unheard of in the Old Testament. The Kingdom is expanding because Satan has been restricted by the Lord. Remember, the Gentile nations all served Baal, Chemosh, Ra, along with other pagan gods.
This is the only subject where I see Dr White appeal to feelings rather than scripture. It has always been a disappointment trying to understand the basis for his conversion of eschatology as hinging on his hope for seeing grandchildren. I don't think the doctrine of eminency precludes a desire to see your descendants, but it would seem to detour changing end times beliefs to accommodate a hopefulness of a budding utopia for them.
The doctrine of imminency must be discarded ASAP. The failed prophetic suggestions in Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth that Jesus might return before 1988 has all but sounded the death knell of imminency
Why should I even bother watching, things ARE NOT getting better, and you can tell so since October last year. Isaiah 2:4 New International Version He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. Then the 1,000 Years where Isaiah 11:6-9 New International Version 6 The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling[a] together; and a little child will lead them. 7 The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den, and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest. 9 They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. CAN HAPPEN
I was a firm Premil until I began witnessing to Jehovahs Witnesses and watched a Jrff Durbin video where he confronted them on their end times views and presented a Post mil view which I had never heard of. So I looked into it out of curiosity, and it made so much sense, and he had so much scripture to align with history. I was hooked and I've never loved discussing eschatology more .
I won't be judgemental... but I disagree! Please... hear me out...
Postmil believers are preterists. They believe Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation are behind us. The implications of that belief, is that God now "ignores" our little girls growing beards, and our little boys cutting off their genitalia.
The truth... our world is the spitting image of "the days of noah", or "the days of lot!" The world isn't getting better, and it was prophecied to get worse.
Only in a "spoiled-brat" Western Christian environment can people believe that things are getting better.
When the next great persecution begins, the preterists (postmil) will quickly ask God to intervene, and they will forget this nonsense
Dr White ministers to me every time I hear him speak. Regardless of the topic. He introduced me to Reformed Theology ten years ago. Thank you James R White !
Ditto.
Good for you
I came in with Boice😊
RC Sprouls’s book ‘Chosen by God’ back in ‘99…
@@andrewbrowne5557 Amen brother, I sure do miss RC !
❤
As an amillennial leaning post, I would LOVE this to be the next debate between Dr. White and Dr. Brown!!
That would be fun!!!
It's already happened.
Love James White, and appreciate his attitude behind this, but would have loved to actually see a definition of postmillennialism and an evaluation of the critiques. This was mainly a story about how he was influenced by Wilson and Durbin, and how he understood Ps 2.
Kenneth Gentry's He Shall Have Dominion and Chilton's Paradise Restored are two great books on postmillennialism
@@kevinevans8892 Agreed, when I read both of those books I was happy they were trying to defend their position from Scripture. They did a good job writing with clarity and using Scripture (although I ultimately disagree with their hermeneutics and presuppositions).
Love him! So grateful for men like him. Which aren’t many. Haha but thankful!! God is so great to gift us with faithful men like Dr. James White
Those who hold to postmillennialism believe that this world will become better and better (even though it certainly doesn't look like it is) with the entire world eventually becoming “Christianized.” After this happens, Christ will return. However, this is not the view of the world in the end times that Scripture presents. From the book of Revelation, it is easy to see that the world will be a terrible place during that future time. Also, in 2nd Timothy 3:1-5 it says, “There will be terrible times in the LAST days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." IF Christians and thereby Christ were reigning, do we really think we would have over a billion Muslims, who view Jesus as a prophet right below Mohamad, a billion Buddhists, who believe Jesus was an enlightened person, a billion Hindus, who believe Jesus studied yoga and became a guru to the Jews, a billion Catholics who are entrusting their souls to Mary at the hour of their death, a billion atheists, the LGBTQ running rampant, TV shows and movies, that continually blaspheme God and His Christ, drinking, drugs, and colleges that have become propaganda mills that promote Godless, Big-bang theology and Darwinian Evolution, human trafficking, and a host of other sinful deeds that will be eliminated during the reign of Jesus Christ, our Holy God. This is a good example of eisegesis; reading pre-conceived ideas into the text, rather than simply reading what the text is clearly stating.
Amen. may God bless this man and make his ministry
More fruitful!
It would have been awesome if Dr. White gave many Scripture expositions.
Things he talked about in this talk, 'Defining Postmillennialism & Why Christians Oppose It':
- mountains
- the dewpoint in arizona
- bugs in texas
- taco time
- his grandkids
- his age
- riding his bike
- his daughter's podcast
- his trip to germany
- the rv park
- the bubonic plague
- debunking global warming
- vineyards in northern europe
- when you marry someone, it's someone different from yourself
- when you have kids, you have to take care of them
- when you become a grandparent, you feel old
- psalm 2
- balding
- his friend debated a homosexual
Things he didn't talk about in this talk, 'Defining Postmillennialism & Why Christians Oppose It':
- the definition of postmillennialism
- why Christians oppose it
I can't imagine this guy did any prep work for this talk. The entire thing makes a lot more sense when you imagine he was asked to give the talk 5 minutes before he got on stage. Maybe his friend was supposed to give the talk but bailed out in the last minute to debate a homosexual again. I was amazed there were still people in the audience at the end. I was even more amazed that they were nodding and paying attention. Don't watch if you're trying to learn anything about postmillennialism. If you want tips on prattling from a master and have an hour to waste, this is the one for you.
You nailed it bro.
You did a fantastic job of defining why this wasn't a talk on post mill and why people reject it.
Yeah, was getting progressively more frustrated as the talk went on. Waiting for the exegesis to begin. Then it was over!
Are all post-mil guys such wind bags?
taco time is the essence of post mil
Thank you for this comment. I am 8 mins in wondering when he is going to start talking about PM. You just saved me 35 mins lol
@38:00 I so appreciate this point about getting out of our echo chambers. Until we start consistently engaging with Christians we disagree with, we will never learn to dwell in a one accord (greek = harmony) before the Lord, and we will never bring those falsehoods into the light by staying in our own camp and attacking from afar.
This is not about ecumenicalism, but about learning how to reach the world with the beautiful sound of the gospel of Christ with all of its nuances, just like the natural God glorifying music we make.
God bless
In my observation, it's those who dwell in echo chambers that tend to be the ones who engage in falsehoods.
I am a postmillenialist but I want to push back on something Dr. White said.
He said that, if The Father is saying to Jesus, "ask if me and I shall give you the nations as your inherentance" and Jesus asks... Then you have to be postmillenialist.
But my understanding of the premil-dispy position on this would be, Jesus doesn't inherit until he returns to earth, and which point God gives to him the wicked nations and he wipes them out or makes them good. Passages about establishing justice are thought to be saying Jesus will once and for all judge all things. That is his establishment of justice. This is where the implication of the text in the original language is so crucial. That establishment of justice is an ongoing process, but even then, the premil position might say "Jesus returns and establishes justice over a period of 1000 years."
I respect James White and am very open to his view but all he basically said in this whole video was "I used to believe this, now I believe that". I was hoping for a more in depth biblical study on the topic which he usually does very well. Respectfully, I don't see what the point of any of this was.
This was addressed to a room of people who were already largely postmillenialists. He wasn’t trying to persuade them to be postmil. He was trying to teach them to temper their eschatology with grace and hope.
47:30 "If we as individuals do not recognize our absolute debtorship to God's grace, not only in saving us but in opening our eyes to His greater purposes and seeing the interconnectedness of the Divine Decree of God and the work of the Trinity and all of these things if we don't recognize and source ourselves fully in Grace, it can become something that's ugly."
Wow... BEAUTIFULLY SAID. Greatly appreciate being able to see/hear this and send this video to others...salute!
TacoTime is amazing. An Idaho favorite. I would always have nothing but good fellowship on the topic with Postmillennials, especially if they like TacoTime.
As a new Christian years ago I was 'born' into Dispensational Premillennialism. Once I realized that view couldn't be proved true by using God's word alone, I was on my way out of it to look for the truth. I'm not exaggerating when I say that it took me five years of my own Bible study to unlearn all the nonsense taught by those so-called 'experts', that is, before all of that mess was washed out of my mind.
New paradigms are difficult to adopt. Cognitive Dissonance is a real phenomenon. Eventually I came to sit on the fence for a while between Postmillennialism and full preterism, but eventually concluded that Covenant Eschatology is the only logically-consistent eschatological view. Now I'm in the most-hated group again. Oh, well. :)
Haha thats how you know its real you didnt do it for human approval or glory😅
Is "Covenant Eschatology" the same thing as "Amillennialism"? Thank You.
So many of us were born into Dispensationalism, sadly. I was listening to a pastor in Montana who had taught Dispensationalism for over 30 years when the Lord finally opened his eyes to how wrong it is. He said it took him 7 years to work his way out! Ultimately he became Amill but the is an expert at shredding the lies of Dispensationalism, which he calls Christian Zionism. His name is Chuck Baldwin if you care to listen to him, especially on Israel.
So enjoying this, second time around.
Amen.
He, the Son did ask for the nations for His inheritance, and He is ruling and reigning over all, today and forever more.
ua-cam.com/users/shortsA0bw4Pw3xHM?feature=share
We are not in the millenium. It is to come in the future, after His return to earth.
Amen!
Postmil eschatology students always enter the debate from a wrong position.
The main problem with posmil arguing based on things getting better slowly are basic premises:
1. Only God is good
2. Man is unable and unwilling to turn to God, enemies of God, completely evil all the time
Therefore, only good can come from God... In other words monergism.
Man does not play a huge role in the change of society, if at all. The church does not need to learn. God can change the hearts of man swiftly just as he did with Pharaoh. God's plan is not dependent on a creation that has a vessel with a nature to sin.
Actually, God's Kingdom being delivered, doesnt require any action by man at all. Does God not elect us? Call us? Regenerate us? Give us a soft heart to turn to him? Does He not teach, lead and direct us? What of any of that is triggered by us?
Our premises show us that the only one at all, who change is dependent on, is God. The rocks could cry out in worship if man does not. Praise God that He did choose us over the rocks.
The Kingdom on earth depends on only one factor:
1. How many elect are planned at any given time
Since man can come to Christ only if the Father elects him and the Spirit regenerates him, everything hinges on God Himself. God made some for destruction and others for worship. Who says that there will be an extended time when there are only elect? Could it not be that God's elect are scattered throughout the generations and He is reaping them as time goes? Were Moses and Abraham not men? We're they also not totally depraved at one time as you or I once were? Then Moses and Abraham were also only significant because they too were elected into sainthood just as you or I. If God would spread His elect out even through the old testament, then why not through the new? In fact we know this is true.
God is the only one who controls when something happens. It doesn't need to be linear or even have a trend. What difference is there with a volatile upward trend or a downward trend that goes up at the very last moment? We see this in the stock market. Do you not collect the same gain on something either way?
We could get worse and worse through history, only to have God finish all at once. Is that not what happens in some wars? Have we not seen wars end with a single battle? A drop of a bomb? The idea by students of post mil, that there must be a positive trend, this is a false assumption and not logically sound. I believe the idea is not even worth including in an argument.
Furthermore, I hear people talk about Christ "winning" all the time. They make hasty generalizations and wrap a complex thing up into something too simple. Then they put a spin on it so as to trap the other person. Of course Christ wins, has he not already? Has he not defeated death? We're our sins not nailed to the cross? Do demons not tremble in fear? But is "winning" what the argument is really about?
God being at war... This has always seemed almost blasphemous to me. God is not in a position to even be at war with anyone. Who can stand against him? God has many more inconsieveable dimensions than anything of creation. Time is not even the same for Him. God holds all power, even Satan himself bows. If God chooses to make all things right with one spoken word at the very end, is he not allowed to do so? Did he not make creation with spoken words?
If God created the world in 6 days from nothing, can he not do it again? I say yes, yes He can. This is why we are not to be concerned. We can not predict God, nor can we control Him. When He does something is completely out of our hands.
What the shall we do? Fear Him. Stand by the gates with our lamps full and wait. Keep a tidy house and multiply the investment He untrusted with us.
He did a great job with Psalm 2
What an intensely important passage.
Thanks for a message of hope and encouragement.
Those who hold to postmillennialism believe that this world will become better and better (even though it certainly doesn't look like it is) with the entire world eventually becoming “Christianized.” After this happens, Christ will return. However, this is not the view of the world in the end times that Scripture presents. From the book of Revelation, it is easy to see that the world will be a terrible place during that future time. Also, in 2nd Timothy 3:1-5 it says, “There will be terrible times in the LAST days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." IF Christians and thereby Christ were reigning, do we really think we would have over a billion Muslims, who view Jesus as a prophet right below Mohamad, a billion Buddhists, who believe Jesus was an enlightened person, a billion Hindus, who believe Jesus studied yoga and became a guru to the Jews, a billion Catholics who are entrusting their souls to Mary at the hour of their death, a billion atheists, the LGBTQ running rampant, TV shows and movies, that continually blaspheme God and His Christ, drinking, drugs, and colleges that have become propaganda mills that promote Godless, Big-bang theology and Darwinian Evolution, human trafficking, and a host of other sinful deeds that will be eliminated during the reign of Jesus Christ, our Holy God. This is a good example of eisegesis; reading pre-conceived ideas into the text, rather than simply reading what the text is clearly stating.
It is not a message of hope and encouragement if it is not true - and I think sadly will leave those who believe this very unprepared to go weather the deception and falling away and the revelation of the antiChrist as Paul outlines in 2 Thess 2:1-12. verse 9: The coming of the lawless one [ie the antiChrist] is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
You need to love the truth to be saved: verses 10 and following “and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
@@ruthmayforth5933 Dr. White loves the truth and is saved.
In America the natural progression seems to most often be in this order:
1. Dispensational Premillennialism (because it's the most popular and has the most so-called 'experts' in pulpit, radio, TV, books, and Hollywood movies.
2. Other forms of Premillennialism.
3. Amillenialism.
4. Postmillennialism.
5. Full/consistent Preterism.
I've been through the list. Keep studying.
My problem with the post-millennial view is it doesn't fit with the coming of Christ described in Revelation 19-20. You would have to assume that Christ's second coming happened in secret and nobody noticed, and that the beast and the mark of the beast already happened, and that Satan was bound and not deceiving the world for a significant chunk of the last 2000 years, and that there are people walking around that are 1000 years old, and those just don't seem like reasonable assumptions. If it's true that the second coming of Christ will be seen by everyone, and it's true that the millennial reign of Christ happens AFTER the second coming (which is what Revelation 19-20 seems to suggest), then it doesn't seem likely that the post-millennial position is true. I prefer a classic pre-millennial view on eschatology, but I'm open to the idea that I might be wrong. I'm just tired of convoluted arguments built on assumptions, stacked on top of more assumptions, and have decided to just take what the Bible says at face value as far as one reasonably could. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. Guess we'll have to wait and see.
I have nothing but respect for dr. White, wilson, and other postmills but as an amilliniest I do not agree with some inherit assumptions. Yes I do believe that opposition to the church will grow but that does not mean the church will decline. Christ is reigning and His plans for this world and His people are still unfolding I do believe He can come back right now or 10,000 years from now but opposition will still be present and the church will still be growing and Christ will still be reigning
This was great! And absolutely not what I expected to hear from the title! But can I ask… in conclusion, why are Christian’s so hostile to postmil?! Perhaps I missed it, but I didn’t see it laid out blatantly
These folks are dear brothers who labor well in the word but their media arm can't resist a clickbait title. MANY of their videos don't match up well to the title
@@alsteiner7602 That may be the case… usually Joel does better with titles, maybe it was part of the newly hired “staff” that did this one?
@@jaquirox6579 to answer your question, because the majority report among evangelical Christians in North America and Great Britain is the Dispey premil framework. Any other eschatology is viewed with jaundiced eyes from individuals who are not aware of any other alternatives. And when they do hear them, they immediately think that you're teaching heresy
James White clearly read “THE GREAT MORTALITY: An Intimate History of the Black Death, the Most Devastating Plague of All Time” by John Kelly.
A fascinating book! James White makes a lot of the same claims and arguments that you can find in John Kelly’s book.
I took the California Achievement Test every year. I was testing out at 12 grade plus after 5th grade, so eventually my mom stopped having me tested. I was homeschooled and went to a Mennonite school for a couple of years, which was just like being homeschooled. It was a tiny school and I was the only one in my grade.
When we read scripture, the return of Jesus is nowhere described as a peaceful event where Jesus is welcomed back to Earth to conduct the Final Judgment and usher in the eternal state by a mostly "Christianized" world. We instead read of the return of Jesus as a violent and bloody event where the Son of God goes to war against His enemies and includes the rescue of the remnant of believing national Israel (Zech 12-14, Rev 19).
Which is exactly what happened.
@@ghosttube6525 How so ??
@@Tractorman-xj4gt Look into the events leading up to the destruction of the 2nd Temple in 70 A.D.
Fits His 2nd coming to a T.
@@ghosttube6525 no... It did not happen yet.
I don't oppose postmillennialism, per se. I simply don't see it Scripture. I believe Christ is reigning now, with all authority on heaven and on earth, as given to Him by the Father. I believe all of Scripture, including those passages that speak of the victorious reign of the Son, as in Psalm 2, Psalm 110, and 1st Corinthians 15. I also believe that He will make a new heavens and a new earth, as it says in Isaiah 65 and 2nd Peter 3. These are wonderful proclamations of total victory from our reigning King. I simply don't see postmillennialism in those verses. I don't hold ill will against anyone who does, but I don't see it. All I know for sure is that Christ is going to return some day, and it will be glorious!
I believe the same. There are many people I greatly respect that were are Post mil like R.C. Sproul, and B B Warfield, but I just do not see Post mil in scripture. Its not about being optimistic or pessimistic. What do the scriptures say? Through out scripture, when times are good, the Church and Israel were at their worst, just loom at Rev. 3 Church of Laodicea.
I think the one thing Postmillennialism and amillennialism have going for them is that premillennialism is fraught with too many issues, the least of which is what happens to the natural people who have survived the tribulation period and are allowed to enter the millennial kingdom. What happens to these people when they die? Do they go to a Jesus-less heaven? And seeing that premmellinsits teach that only the wicked will partake in the last resurrection after the 1000 years, when will these millennial righteous people be raised? These are practical questions that are rarely discussed by the premil theologians
What do you see instead? Amillennialism? Those are really the only two biblical options.
Dr White is so so so good at speaking God's word
So what does postmillennialism mean?? I still don't know
those who see chapter 20 of revelation as Christ coming back to earth after 1,000 years of basically peace and prosperity for Christianity, this is to begin some time in the future.. hope this helps!
Postmillennialism teaches that at Jesus' glorious ascension to heaven to sit at God's right hand, He fulfilled Psalm 110:1, Psalm 2, Daniel 7:13-14 and other Messianic predictions about the advent of His Kingdom, which has been in existence now for 2 thousand years. They see this as coinciding with Revelation 20 and the millennium. Satan has been severely constricted in his activities, unlike in OT times when he had significantly more latitude in deceiving the Gentile nations (Moab - Chemosh; Philistines - Dagon; Eqgpt - Ra, ect). With the Kingdom, the Gentile nations have the gospel and, as a matter of fact, comprises the largest number of Christians (New Testament Israelites, so to speak) than physical Israel. I hope that helps
@@kevinevans8892as another commenter posted, sounds just like pre mill but just change Israel to earn the church and take away a literal 1000 year reign of Christ
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
There's a deeper issue that most don't want to address - identity.
Because theologians for the past 200 years have been hyper focused on the "2 ways to salvation" theory, i.e. jew and gentile -
Yea, that'll cause some confusion lol
Post -millenialism is hope. We should talk of our great great grandchildren!
When I hear "postmillennial" in Dr. White's description of believing all of the Word, I can with integrity, adhering to the entire Word, simply change it to "premillennial" and come to the same conclusions. Why? Because in time Jesus will rule in Person exactly as prophesied during the millennium with a rod of iron over all the nations. Jesus reigns now, and calls us to proclaim His rule over all the earth, everything in, on, and under this world, and that this will be fulfilled when He physically returns. Kiss the Son - His wrath is soon coming. He will come in wrath and establish His kingdom rule. All opposition will experience it. It is now His law over our hearts; it will then be over the nations in law over all the magistrates of all people everywhere.
Might I be wrong? Certainly. Might Dr. White whom I love, support, and take what he says seriously? Of course. Perhaps he will salute, as he said, those who got it right if the Lord returns in time and conditions that premillennials see in Scripture. In the meantime, I don't oppose my brothers who see it his way, for we are looking for a great revival together; or even many such revivals until the end of human dominated history.
No. Their is only 1 Israel.
@@iacoponefurio1915 You just proved his point. 😂
@@iacoponefurio1915 There is only one spiritual Israel, and the national promises are yet to be fulfilled. I do understand we do not agree on this. Thanks!
Really enjoyable presentation.
PM just doesn't pass the sniff test, my opinion. But I hold James White in the highest esteem.
Agreed on both points, my friend.
Premillennialism also fails to pass the sniff test
Absolutely brother I agree.
Same
Dispensational Truth by Clarence Larkin is the most eye opening book on eschatology in existence.
This is very very good!
If James had a better understanding of passages like Genesis 11:1-9 (the connection to Acts 2), Deuteronomy 4:19-20, 32:8-9, and Psalm 82 (have to wonder if he still reads this the same flawed way), he would have a much better understanding about what Psalm 2 is talking about. He would also have a much deeper appreciation for the Gospel.
James White is much better in a debate format. This one just did not do it for me.
Thank you Dr White
In the 1980s James White taught Bible studies in my home. I recall his Alpha Omega ministry when it was based on Indian School on the west side of Phoenix. James began his debating career in Phoenix and I attended many of these events. He was edgy and typically snobbish toward his Christian brothers, many times condescending. James has grown much since those early times. I like these changes in him. He now seems to possess more elder-like qualities described in the Bible yet retained Iacomus Candidum Contra Mundum.
Premillennial, pretribulation rapture person here. I have the highest view of Holy Scripture. It is God breathed. 😀
And is the most accurate to what the Bible says. Amen brother
I don't see us learning from the past. All I see is us repeating the past over and over.
Part 1/2 Sadly, James' first mistake was assuming a "generation" was 40 years ( I know many others did incorrectly) when in Scripture it specifically says "Pass away" or die off.
Matthew 24: 32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that He is near-at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place."
So sadly, like many Eschatology students, we presuppose a definition or understanding and when we make an error in 1 part we throw the whole out.
If James had a framework of 1 lifespan where the people born in 1948 will not all pass away before Jesus returns, he would have had a 100+ year view. Not 500 or 1000 but 100 years.
We are currently in year 75 so what should we expect? That people born in 1948 are still alive.
Then let's look at the signs. First sign. Matthew 24:4-5
4 Jesus told them, “Don’t let anyone mislead you, 5 for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will deceive many.
Any evidence for this?
www.israeltoday.co.il/read/israeli-rabbi-says-hes-already-holding-meetings-with-messiah/
John 5:43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.
israel365news.com/339505/israeli-rabbi-reveals-date-of-messiahs-arrival-according-to-kabbalah/
Now this rabbi got the dates wrong but that's because the year of Jubilee seems to be 2025 and 2075. Every 50 years.
Second sign.
And you will hear of wars and threats of wars, but don’t panic. Yes, these things must take place, but the end won’t follow immediately. 7 Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
Now Christians misquote this passage all the time. The key here is "kingdom against kingdom" In the OT especially Daniel 2, 7, etc. Kingdom refers to "world empires"
Daniel 2: 36 “This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. 37 You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38 and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all-you are this head of gold. 39 But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others.
So Jesus is saying that in this time there would be more than 1 world empire and they will war against each other. Right now we have the US, China, Russia, NATO, BRICS, etc. as world empires.
Are any of these threatening to go to war with each other? Absolutely. Which we call WW3, which there hasn't been a world war of empires since BEFORE 1948. Funny how Jesus called this 2000 years ago. It also means there will be a WW3. Jesus goes on.
"There will be famines and earthquakes in many parts of the world. 8 But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come."
So WW3 will not be the end but the beginning of the end. Yet people will panic and think the world is going to end. We are not to be afraid because all this has been told to us in advance.
9 “Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers.
10 And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other.
11 And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. 12 Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold.
...14 And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come.
now many Christians think this is about us preaching the Gospel to the world. That's not the biblical narrative, it says we are a mess, 1 Timothy 4:1-5 adopting false doctrines and teachings and we are. Revelation 14: 6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth-to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people- 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
I'm sure the LORD will use social media and the internet of this event to bring the Gospel message but it won't be via us, the Church.
The problem with many Christians today is that they don't have a biblical framework. There are a few distinct biblical themes that point to this time in history.
I would argue that Premillennialism dates back to Moses 3000 years ago based on Genesis 1 and 2. This isn't a new framework. It's extremely old. But doubt and questions and simply a lack of resources that weren't available until our time has blinded us.
We are told work 6 days and rest for 1 the Sabbath why? Jesus is the LORD of the Sabbath. Matthew 12: 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
The Israelites were told to work the Land the LORD gave them for 6 years and rest the land for 1 year. Why? Because He is the LORD of that land.
Leviticus 25: And the Lord spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When you come into the land which I give you, then the land shall keep a sabbath to the Lord. 3 Six years you shall sow your field, and six years you shall prune your vineyard, and gather its fruit; 4 but in the seventh year there shall be a sabbath of solemn rest for the land, a sabbath to the Lord.
The Jews and early Christians believed that our time of dominion from Adam to the Messiah (2nd Coming) is 6000 years + 1000 years of Sabbath; rest in His Kingdom.
Because He is the LORD of time from beginning to end.
Early Christians:
Barnabas, AD First Century
“Therefore, children, in six days, or in six thousand years, all the prophecies will be fulfilled. Then it says, ‘He rested on the seventh day.’ This signifies at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus, He will destroy the Antichrist, judge the ungodly, and change the sun, moon, and stars. Then He will truly rest during the Millennial reign, which is the seventh day.” Epistle of Barnabas 15:7-9
Commodianus, AD 240
“We will be immortal when the six thousand years are completed.” Against the Gods of the Heathens 35 “Resurrection of the body will be when six thousand years are completed, and after the one thousand years [millennial reign], the world will come to an end.” Against the Gods of the Heathens 80
Victorinus, AD 240
“Satan will be bound until the thousand years are finished; that is, after the sixth day.” Commentary on Revelation 20.1-3
Methodius, AD 290
“In the seventh millennium we will be immortal and truly celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.” Ten Virgins 9.1
Johnson, Ken. The End-Times by the Ancient Church Fathers (p. 11-12).
Judaism.
www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/607585/jewish/Significance-of-the-year-6000.htm
"The Talmud tells us that this world, as we know it, will last for six thousand years, with the seventh millennium ushering in the cosmic Shabbat, the Messianic Era. Six days a week we work, and on the Shabbat we rest and enjoy the fruits of our labor; the same is true with millenniums.
However, it is certainly possible for Moshiach (Messiah) to come earlier. And we believe, hope, and pray each day that this is the day when Moshiach will come...
So yes, we don't know exactly when Moshiach will come, but we do know that it will be before the year 6000. (Currently, as I write this response, we are in the year 5768 [2007-8].)"
So the Jewish calendar today says "5784" which we know the date is wrong based on the New Testament. But the concept of counting to the year 6000 is biblical.
What makes Bible prophecy so powerful is not only the events that are predicted in advance but also when they will occur and the order they will occur.
(Continued in Part 2)
A generation is 70 years, with strength 80 years.
“The days of our lives are seventy years; Or if due to strength, eighty years, Yet the best of them is but toil and exertion; For it is soon cut off, and we fly away.” (Psalms 90:10, TS2009)
I think you are taking John 5:43 wrong.
Our Messiah's name isn't J,sus. Is that the Hebrew name his momma called him? 2 billion christians and nearly the same number of Muslims are all waiting for J,sus. Now reread that name. Narrow path??
Cosmic? That's not scriptural. You claim it's a framework issue, yet you don't have a grasp on scriptural cosmology. Sigh
I am still on the fence on the subject of this video, but scripture as written sure makes more sense than a pre trib pre mill approach.
The post-mill position is simply a position that is one step closer to the truth. If you made it this far, you have come a long ways. But keep going, don’t stop. It is actually not 100% correct, but close. 👍
Incompatible with Daniel 2
@@jeremyjean-pierre4977 Postmil is incompatible? It seems like the only one that actually accounts for the interpretation of the dream. The kingdom of God (the Church) enters the world as a tiny pebble 2000 years ago, and yet that insignificant rock ends up shattering the kingdoms of the world (Rome, Babylon, Persia, etc) and is now in the phase where it grows and grows and is becoming a great mountain that fills the whole earth. Premil usually has the kingdom of God stuck in heaven and when it finally comes to earth, it comes fully formed, not something that grows and fills the earth like Daniel 2 teaches. In fact, depending on the person, it pops into the world fully formed and then dwindles after 1000 years until there is a great apostasy because for some, not even God is a good enough king to keep a kingdom together for more than 1000 years.
Really really good thnx so very much... I'm rewinding this one and re-listening.... to let it sink in extra good in case i missed anything
I appreciate James Whites heart and Testimony, andly what he says about alot of Premilenial teaching is right. However, I would say I dont start from the bottom up, in the weeds so to speak, but from the top down. And read passages like Psalms two with great enthusiasm, and expectency both in the sense of Gospel spread and Jesus reigning bodily on this earth.
People like Dr James White are proof that God always gives us a way out from temptation and darkness. In this case, we are strengthened by the preaching of God's servant, and thankfully this one does not bend to the pressures of the world's wicked culture.
1 Corinthians 10:12-13 ESV
[12] Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. [13] No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
@robertstephenson6806 Why does Jesus's kingdom fall apart?
@robertstephenson6806 From what I gather on premil, at some point Jesus will return and establish a physical kingdom, but after 1000 years it falls apart and there is a great apostasy and the final battle. Why does that happen? Or is that wrong?
@robertstephenson6806 _"...Jesus returns and establishes the millennial kingdom (Ezekiel 37-46), _*_then Armageddon,_*_ then the earth is cleansed with fire..."_
And what is Armageddon? How does that come about?
@robertstephenson6806 So on the one hand, Jesus himself is on earth running the most perfect kingdom ever, and yet he is so terrible at it that there is a mass defection of people who go over to Satan's side in order to join his army and attack Christ. And this is not a failure. Make it make sense.
Well, unfortunately Jesus predicted all things will grow worse and worse, peoples hearts will grow cold, and there will be a big falling away before the Lord returns... This is opposite of postmillennialism. I do like that James finally quit ducking the question and took sides but he fell on the wrong end of things. Jeff is very persuasive but the two hermeneutics they (Jeff and James) hold are diametrically opposed. Consistency is is very important. James, being a literalist in hermeneutic has just adopted an allegorical eschatological hermeneutic. One of two things will happen, James will either allow this conversation to fall to the side, or he will drop one hermeneutic: the literal hermeneutical methodology one must have in order to arrive at Calvinistic interpretations, or the allegorical hermeneutical methodology one must have in order to arrive at Postmillennialism. The two hermeneutics are diametrically opposed.
John MacArthur is also the one I saw to first expose the oxymoron of a "Calvinistic Postmillennialist."
Issue I always have with premillennialism, beyond just the Scriptural issues and hostility opposing it brings (which itself suggest its producing bad fruit) is the logical inconsistency of the position, a premil is putting more value on themselves and their time where they are then could ever be warranted, in most cases its people who have never been to places where Christianity never really was, or where Christianity is working out in a young church, or where there stands a continual strong church, you go to China and your eschatology can no longer work as premil, or much of Africa. It seems more that the modern premil application formed as a result of the many elements of laziness and selfishness then out of a reading from the Bible, if you're looking for an element of the text to tell you things, you weren't being honest with the text and are cherrypicking it to support a point. I often hear premils get into things like Revelation 19 and 20 or Matthew 24, except none of those Scriptures can be read in a way that demonstrates that because the claims don't even imply a premil interpretation, in the best of cases what it says is millennial-agnostic, you can't prove a position and if you're gonna claim it you're being led by a lie and not by the Scriptures. If you trust Sola Scriptura, then you should be able to abandon all knowledge, to become a fool, including all theology and eschatology, in order to become wise. If you aren't capable to do this, then you aren't observing the Scriptures with sincerity, you are seeking an agenda out of it, you're not following in that case by the Holy Spirit.
If you ask me, I don't truly care about millennialism, I am totally willing to abandon postmil when I read the Scriptures, it doesn't change anything if I do because its not doctrine and thus abandoning it is trivial. But modern premil makes it doctrine, which I suggest is why it produces bad fruit, what you make doctrine makes it inseparable from God's Word, and its why they have to fight so hard, when you make non-doctrine into doctrine, you are then required to defend it to the death, thus those who do this find premil more important then Sola Fide. If you truly trust the Holy Spirit, you must give up everything, all knowledge, all wisdom, so that God can educate you, you must not foremost value the words of another man before the Word God gave, only afterwards can you investigate the words of others. This is part of a humility and grace that understands that I shouldn't even have a gift to read God's Word, but He allowed me this, so I should be honest in myself. And thus I don't take any millennialism as doctrine nor do I read the text with any of it in mind, and it most certainly isn't something I'm gonna beat someone over the head as if it would save them. But those who do, you are certainly violating every command God gave on love, you are violating the Commandments directly.
Firstly, I also get baffled when people act as though the timing of the millennium is some essential part of the faith. It has nothing to do with our Justification, nor serves as instruction in our Sanctification; it's tertiary at best. I think it's just fun to engage and have conversations with others who are mature enough to recognize that. You mention the "modern pre-mil application", and it seems to be that which you are critiquing. This is actually one of the issues I run into when having discussions on the millennium. As a historic premil I find that most people conflate my position with dispensational pre-mil (which is a 19th century invention). Dispensational pre-mil is very modern and has a myriad of problems that require the twisting of scripture, not the least of which is dispensationalism's false dichotomy between the Church and Israel. The millennium is in the category of prophecy, and as such, I agree that it's not very wise to put hope an any given interpretation. We are told specifically to not despise prophetic utterance, but to test it. Since the Millennium is inseparably intertwined with the Second Coming of Christ, we'll really only know which position is right once He returns.
I see the dangers of the extremes of both positions: The extreme of modern, dispensational, premillennialism is that people often place their hope in a pre-trib rapture and are left completely unprepared to trust Christ through real hardship, were it to occur. Not only this, but many become so preoccupied with watching for potential prophetic signs that they end up living lives of fear and following conspiracies and con-men rather than the Word of God. The extreme of post-mil is that through dominion theology the people of God are convinced they are sure to take over society and make a world that is Christianized for Christ to return to and rule over, leaving them blind toward looking at potential prophetic events and therefore unprepared to face the Great Tribulation if the premil position is true due to proleptic nature of prophecy. Regardless of which position is correct, it doesn't change what we as believers are called to do: Glorify God by spreading the Gospel and being and making disciples within the sphere of influence that God has given us, regardless of the world around us. So, as of now, I remain a pre-millennial; watch for the coming of Christ as I seek to serve Him; and, honestly, kind of hope that I'm wrong and end up pleasantly surprised that we don't have to go through a one-world regime that is directly, outwardly, and violently opposed to Christ and His people; though I'm not saying that would necessarily happen in our lifetime.
Anyway, I honestly just loved to see someone taking a strong but balanced stance, and ultimately admitting that it's the scriptures that are right. I don't know you, but I love you. Early in my Christan walk, I came across a quote that shaped my studies, and I think you'll appreciate it: "Our object should not be to have scripture on our side but to be on the side of scripture; and however dear any sentiment may have become by being long entertained, so soon as it is seen to be contrary to the Bible, we must be prepared to abandon it without hesitation." - William Symmington
@@CrimKazanawa
Yes, while I don't agree with the premil perspective, even of the dispensationalist I've never once even considered calling them heretics or apostates because of it, my issue is more in line with what Dr. White often says when he was pointing out folks were heading towards such. I say the same, it often leads you into a heretical or apostate path and even if I could not dissuade someone Biblicalyl from that path, the least of what I can do is warn them and warn them by the Scriptures.
My position with everything I do has always been to go back to the Scriptures, that every position I take must foremost be something I can point back to the Scriptures and any topic that must be brought up among Christians for serious debate must be something I can absolutely prove in the Scriptures. When it comes to historical premil vs. postmil or even amil, the difference is usually minutia not really worth even discussing in my opinion. I share a similar perspective on Paedobaptism, despite being a Baptist, I see it as each individuals calling, whether any of us are right is not something we have yet been given, or may ever be given, God very well might be calling us to different minds for His purposes, so why even consider stirring divisions among the fellowship of the Church? This mindset, alongside many elements connected to it, (for theology is not compartmental but afflicts every parcel of life) has made me come to what I call anti-denominational, not just nondenominational, but indignant and completely opposed to the very idea of denominational divides among the body of the Church. (which is founded on the principals of no divisions in the Church found in 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Galatians, Romans, and constantly implicated in the Gospels and demonstrates in the Old Testament)
Anyhow the principals for which I speak for discernment among so claiming brothers and sister must be principally on things that by exegesis I can demonstrate in the Scriptures, things for which God outright says to us that such people are in fact discerned from the Church. While this allows me to make rational argumentation extended from the Scriptures it is merely described as reaching the logical conclusion of the Scriptures for which I still must be able to point back to. As an example I openly and constantly address problems with the historical consideration of Genesis as actually happening because without it the logical conclusions say that Moses at best was a liar and at worst didn't even exist, and in John 5 it further clarifies that Jesus could not be believed without Moses who wrote of Him. Even more when we are not to add or remove anything given in the Scriptures which is iterated numerous times in Old and New Testament. Dispensationists have a problem with doing this, adding details that are not so specific, same to those who reject all of Genesis, especially 1-10, as being a historical fact. The Scriptures do not give that leeway and those who do such must be warned against. (and even then I may never call them apostates nor heretics, but at the least it disrupts faith and easily leads them to apostasy, heresy, or even total abandonment)
But those who merely suppose a case of saying they think it is one way or another, which doesn't change the production of their fruit, which does not describe compelled requirements to one way or another beyond Salvation in Faith Alone, Sola Fide, taught by the Scriptures Alone, Sola Scriptura, if these things are given, I have nothing to even address in the brotherhood. For it is those who change the doctrines and truths of the Scripture, and in turn reject Sola Fide entirely, they are the ones I will address.
And for why I see that anything beyond that case should not really even be debated is because of what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12, a body shares parts that commit to different roles, and these different roles have different callings and thus perform different behaviors. How this is described I don't think is limited to just office positions in the Church but it applies even more broadly that the Church is made of individual members who see things distinctly yet still by faith. And in this faith they have different callings that do no matter to faith but perform different purposes and accomplish different tasks for the sake of God. Not that He needs them to but that He wants them to and thus by the Holy Spirit He guides them to. Its not a case that there is no objective truth to this, but that what we are given to know is given for specific purposes and that which we don't is deliberately shrouded in mystery for our sakes. So for whatever purpose it serves, our difference of mind is I think part of God using our individual distinctions for a good purpose we don't have a right to criticize of each other unless we believe it violates doctrines and truth, in which case it must be addressed according to the Scriptures. The same too applies to the many denominations, which should designate different ideas of the church's resolution, not different or higher authorities to the local church. And that is why I am also anti-denominational, the divisions should've been for classification purposes, not for division and authority purposes. Each church is a local body and should be independent I argue with that, shared in a unified worship for God and a desire for His purposes. And though I be anti-denominational, I would not even call such things apostasy let alone heretical, but I do think it is a ignorance or even outright rejection of a calling from God which is destined to greatly harm many members of the Church body. (in such a way I aim to lovingly, and rationally, fight the human nature common among those who are making denomination authorities corrupted by the fleshly nature of man)
I have much more I could say on this, I love discussion and arguing the topic, but it'll start to waver on many topics and become a bit rant-like, so I'll leave it there. (though I did kinda do that, but know I could and have gone on for a lot longer before)
I wonder how the post millers explain Zechariah 14
Why is it that brothers and sisters in Christ have some sense that an apology is expected by some for our open friendship with each other - especially when that friendship crosses denominational and sectarian lines?
9:48 Here’s my eschatology of hope. Titus 2 verse 13 (KJV)
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Im not dogmatic about eschatology but I simply cant get on board postmilleniallism. It completely ignore vast swaths of scripture. There are holes in every viewpoint but the premillenial views at least attempt to address the tons of verses about 3.5 years, rebuilding the temple and sacrifices, mark of the beast, 7 bowls of wrath, Jesus wiping out his enemies in one giant swoop, etc., etc.
If we are still early in church history then we still have thousands of years left of death and evil things like child molestation and cancer and war and I have no hope each day of being with Christ unless I die by the aging process which almost always is slow and degrading or if I die suddenly or get cancer or something else that would cause pain to those who love me But if my eschatology is right each day I wake up I have the hope of being with Christ and all of His church being with Him and rescued from the pains and trials and tears of this present evil age and this in no way hinders my motivation in service to Him or discourages me from living well wise and pleasing to Him but in fact it motivates me to do so and so all the premill believers I know live like today may be the day but prepare and plan for the future if it’s not
Huh? I don't think I follow you.
Are you saying the Christians 2000 years ago had no hope because Christ's return was still ~2000 years off given your (right) eschatology? That's what you seem to say about Christians today should Christ's return not be for another 2000+ years. I don't see how that matters or makes your position better.
Otherwise, I agree with the last bit about living like a postmil. Premil believers, don't put all your hope in Christ returning so soon that you don't bring enough oil to last until the groom comes. Hope Christ returns soon, but lay down a foundation for your grandchildren and great grandchildren, etc, that will be ready for Christ to return 2000+ years from now.
RE the 'multi-hair-colored people screaming and screeching in state houses for trans rights today', around 48:10:
Agreed, we are not better than anyone of those people. Us believers were given the free gift of being able to understand God's Word, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. However, has the Gospel gone out, from our lips, to these 'multi-hair-colored people'? Have we believers loved on them like God first loved on us?
Many Christians oppose it simply because of Rev 20.
Those who hold to postmillennialism believe that this world will become better and better (even though it certainly doesn't look like it is) with the entire world eventually becoming “Christianized.” After this happens, Christ will return. However, this is not the view of the world in the end times that Scripture presents. From the book of Revelation, it is easy to see that the world will be a terrible place during that future time. Also, in 2nd Timothy 3:1-5 it says, “There will be terrible times in the LAST days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." IF Christians and thereby Christ were reigning, do we really think we would have over a billion Muslims, who view Jesus as a prophet right below Mohamad, a billion Buddhists, who believe Jesus was an enlightened person, a billion Hindus, who believe Jesus studied yoga and became a guru to the Jews, a billion Catholics who are entrusting their souls to Mary at the hour of their death, nearly a billion atheists, the LGBTQ running rampant, TV shows and movies, that continually blaspheme God and His Christ, drinking, drugs, colleges that have become propaganda mills that promote Godless, Big-bang theology and Darwinian Evolution, human trafficking, and a host of other sinful deeds that will be eliminated during the reign of Jesus Christ, our Holy God. This is a good example of eisegesis; reading pre-conceived ideas into the text, rather than simply reading what the text is clearly stating.
Well said
Does anyone know what film Dr White referenced at about the 10 minute mark? "On Earth As It Is In Heaven?"
Think of how many people have been saved through The Late Great Planet Earth (I am one of them). Dr. White, you don't think the Bride of Christ can become spotless and holy through the intense pressure, persecution, and calamity of the end times? Becoming holy is supported by Premil, not Postmil. We aren't all pre-trib...and even if we were, there will be much persecution before the last 7 years--and is already.
Pre trib here
James White's profound intellect gets in the way of child like faith, this man does not understand the simplicity in Christ
Yikes. Thats an awful thing to say and patently false. You should check yourself.
@@SaltyApologist you need to check his teaching, calvinism is a pride filled heresy
At around the 40:15 mark he says he (we) take the words of Jesus literally. Does that mean he still keeps Torah?
Is he referring to Covenant Seminary in St. Louis County? (around minute 13?) Is there a need for revival in study of the Word?
When you take Israel to mean the church you’ve messed up the whole clock for understanding eschatology
Yep!
Pretty much every false doctrine is a result of this failure to distinguish the two. I couldn't agree more.
It's funny. I have read and listened to multiple people who claim to "define" Post-millennialism. I still have no idea which scriptures they are using and how they're interpreting them. It seems to be a big secret that is used to get people to keep clicking on videos that offer nothing. Sorry James White, I have listened to you multiple times and come away with 0 insight.
To be honest, I've noticed that from just about all the positions. Premil holders often assume their view is obvious from this or that passage, but when I read it coming from a postmil perspective, it seems to say the opposite of what they need it to say. For example, I don't get why many premil view Romans 9-11 as so favorable to their position when Paul seems to explicitly bring up their assumption about Israel in order to refute it. Or I just saw a comment about Daniel 2 being incompatible with Postmil, whereas I see postmil as the only position that does that chapter justice.
But from the other side, I don't know what is or is not obvious about my position and understanding of scripture if viewed from a premil angle. And the way these views are formed, they are bigger than any one verse or passage, but often come out of very different ways of reading scripture.
If you are familiar with amil, you will know most of the scriptural proofs Postmil uses as well. It might be more helpful to ask specific questions.
Thanks for saving me time. 👍🏽
change the title of the video, it's not what is. James White was just talking why it make it sense in terms of Church History and Scripture but never gave a definition and why people opposed it.
AI will change his mind..thousands of year from now, we would be cyborgs. I’m a post trib guy but I’m not at all dogmatic on this subject.Irenaeus, has a great comment..
"But when the time has arrived, and the prediction has come to pass, then the prophecies have a clear and certain exposition"
For as much respect as I have for Dr. White, this was quite the disappointment 😐
And uh. And uh. And uh
Can't take it.... too much...
Havent watched it yet but Never thought I'd see JW preaching on this subject
Dr. White quoted, "Ask of me and I will give you the nations"...nations is goyim, meaning Gentiles, as individuals). Are you saying that all Gentiles are going to be saved, therefore that supports Postmil? No, I don't need to be PostMil just because this verse is true. I don't think that verse means what you think it means.
30 minutes in. No bible verses. No solid arguments yet. Just perspective and personal narrative. This needs a different title so that some of us can hear the systematic case for post-mill…
You grew up Disp/Premil....and slid into something you can't explain then spend an entire hour or so trying to define it? Call a spade a spade...your younger family members won't invite you too the cool parties unless you switch.
I really appreciate Dr. White shares his long apathy for eschatology at the start... I have listened to him for years and immediately cringed at the vid title!
Brother James is well grounded in theology. I think he will come back to the Dispensational Premillennial side of things before long. You cannot have an allegorical hermeneutic in regards to eschatology and a literal interpretation with everything else. Either the Calvinistic hermeneutic or the Allegorical hermeneutic will eventually be cast aside... John MacArthur hath spoken it!!!! 😎
@chrisc7579 If your comment is meant to be sardonic humor, you nailed it. But the likelihood of Dr. White coming full circle to dispensationalism has to be miniscule... are you familiar with its origin, namely Friar Manuel Lacunza?
@@brettschlee7090 just to be clear, you think the origin of dispensationalism in its current form (historical dispensationalism) is from Friar Manuel Lacunza? 1731-1801?
@@chrisc7579 Of course; J. N. Darby learned Spanish to absorb Lacunza's book "The Coming of the Messiah in Majesty and Glory" better. His plan to shift Protestant focus/identification away from the Pope as antichrist is ingenious, in a Satanic kind of way.
@@chrisc7579 dispensationalism came about in 1830. John Nelson Darby's creation with the assistance of one Margaret McDonald who attended Edward Irwin's church, I hope I mentioned the correct name. In any case, dispensationalism is a failed eschatology. Too many failed prophetic suggestions (e.g., Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth's 1988 speculation) .
What I gleaned from this presentation: Those who adhere to postmillennialism use that word outside of the definition of the word within it - millennial. Postmillennialists have no intent to mean anything relating to a 1000 year time period. Really hoped this PhD would have used Scripture to define postmillennialism and why he believes it.
Yes. The hyper focus on the 1000 years is a very modern trend (in the last ~150 years or so), and post- "millennialism" is much older than that. Given that it only appears in one book, it is a weird thing to make the end all and be all of one's end times philosophy. Some Postmil do see it as more literally 365250 days or there abouts, but many others view it as a similar timeframe that Peter speaks of for the final judgement in 2 Pe 3 when explaining why Jesus isn't being slow to return.
Yeah thanks, your nonsense only works because we didn't know classic history as well in the 90s during all that Left Behind crap. Ignoring the destruction of Israel not 40 yrs after the death of Christ allows you to come to your view. Ignoring Nero Caesar in 666. Ignoring why the Gnostics form in the descendants of Ishmael (the nations mentioned in Revelation are the nations surrounding Israel aka the Muslims now).
Your view is essentially the Muslim end time world view just flip the good guys and bad guys.
The problem is you are also OK and frankly want the world to burn and you want us to ignore the intentional attempt to fulfill prophecy in refounding Israel. Why fight anything? Just accelerate right? The worse it gets the faster we get to Jesus' return right? You can tell Him how you did nothing and that was all part of the plan right?
We should have just let Islam take over Europe in the 7th century and the Vikings to take the British isle's right? I mean accelerate...more non belief and evil the faster we get to Jesus right? Which one really sounds like a idea sent from Satan and which one sounds like God?
18:39 vinyard northern england
He is not addressing the main topic from the scriptures. He is wandering around in personal experiences.
Postmils often take passages that speak about the new heavens and new earth after Christ returns and apply it to their earthly millennium before Christ returns. I believe this is where they err a lot of the time.
Christ returned at AD 70
@@IronFire116 if you say He returned physically in 70AD, that would be heresy.
@@adamcarpenter1869 No one teaches or says that. There is no need to put words in my mouth.
@@IronFire116 people do say that and it’s heresy. But I didn’t say you said that but you did say he returned in 70AD. Please elaborate. Are you saying he returned in judgment in 70AD?
@@adamcarpenter1869 Are there any denominations or creeds that say he physically returned in 70 ad? I'm truly asking.
Mark 13:26, the Son of Man came on the clouds before that generation passed.
21:08 bookmark
See, this is why Jesus chose tradesmen. I'm sure then as now the scholars were "off in the weeds."
And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
Luke 17:26-30 NKJV talking about puzzle pieces not fitting. How does this fit in a postmil view? As I recall the earth wasn't full of righteousness in Noah's day.
Where is righteousness discussed in that text?
@@jlettizard6465 I think he’s referring to the postmil view that all the earth will be converted before Christ’s return.
@@jlettizard6465 Are you kidding?
From a pre-millennial perspective, couldn’t Psalm 2 simply be referring to the millennial reign of Christ?
Premillennialism assumes there will be rebels living in an earth with the risen Christ. Even as a former Premillennialist, that aspect of this eschatology used to confuse me. What also confused me was this: what happens to the natural saints (those without their resurrected bodies) who dies? Seeing that Jesus is on the earth, where do these people go? Is it to a Jesus-less Heaven? 0:08
@@kevinevans8892
Futurism is nonsense. Futurists have taken all prophetic passages and thrown them into the most distant future possible even though plenty of passages contain a lot o details that can only pertain to a very distant PAST.
They have it all backward but they're proud of their error .
With all respect, you never even defined the term let alone defend the position from scripture., You shared Psalms 2 as a defense of your position but never explained HOW Psalms 2 supports your position of postmill... I am STILL waiting for someone to actually defend this position from Scripture.
I still think the rapture comes first, but it always is a blessing to hear Dr White ❤
You dont get a free pass because that was your tradition 😅😅
Youre waiting for a 3rd coming! 🤦♂️
@@iacoponefurio1915 I don't know that it's a salvation issue
@@iacoponefurio1915 White is wrong about eschatology and this was painful to listen to... 12 minutes in and he's still fumbling. He does the same with islam. He should stick to his area of expertise
@@iacoponefurio1915 You're conflating the rapture with the return to earth. typical
If it's post mill, what happened to the mark of the beast?
I'd prefer he used more scripture than stories of men. There was a great lack of Gods words.
Well, as a postmillennial fulfilled-covenant preterist, I can say that I respectfully disagree with you. But I can live with that. However, I must also advise you that we agree on far more issues than we differ. I love to hear your messages.
Dr. White claims that dispensationlists don’t use the same hermeneutic for the Trinity as they do the millennium and the rapture etc. but there’s no demonstration of what those hermeneutics are and what Bible verses he’s referring to.
But isn’t postmill the damsel suffering from main character syndrome 😂 and a terrible storyline?
Does the bride start ruling and reigning before king’s return? The bride maketh herself ready, doesn’t get the whole kingdom all ready and take the throne before the coronation🤦
Look forward to the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ like Titus👍
The title of this video should really be changed. I watched hoping to learn more about post millennialist but it wasn’t even defined.
Part 2/2
So how can we know? Genesis 2:
15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Now we know Adam ate. Did he die in the next 24 hours? No.
Genesis 5:5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.
No one lived to see 1000. Adam lived from year 1- year 930 not 1000, not to "Day" 2. He died in that "day" as the LORD said he would.
Adam dies end of Day 1. End of Day 2 the LORD goes to Abraham year 2001. David in year 3000 and Jesus is just before year 4000 since 70-75 AD is year 4000. Year 6000 is 2070-2075 about then. This is a study but it's not that difficult what messes us up is the context. For example, In Genesis 7-8 we see the biblical calendar.
Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." 2nd Month 17th Day. Genesis 8: 3 And the waters receded continually from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days (150 days) the waters decreased. 4 Then the ark rested in the seventh month, the seventeenth day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat." 7th Month, 17th Day. (5 months later =150 days means each month is 30 days).
Our calendar is 365.25 days per year and in Genesis, it's 360 days per year. So Adam did live 900+ years even by our calendar. (930 years x 360 days =334,800 days. Our calendar would show Adam as living 916 years at 365.25 days per year). So when we apply our calendar of BC and AD to everything we mess up the biblical calendar a little. This is why this extensive biblical calendar says we are past the year 6000.
amazingbibletimeline.com/
This 5 days per year seems like a slight detail but if we apply this 360 day calendar from Adam and Eve to the destruction of the Temple (70AD or year 4000 from creation) and then switch to our 365.25 After the destruction we'd have a gap of 57 years
(Adam and Eve to The destruction of the Temple 4000 years at 360 days per year =1,440,000 days. Which would be 3,942.50 of our years.)
This is why we lose hope, for us 57 years is a long time but we're talking about a 6000 year period which the enemy has had to distort calendars, cause doubt, and develop alternative theories.
What the LORD has done is given us clues along the way to readjust our calendars so we have a clearer image. We know based on all available evidence and resources that humans can live a max of 115.5 some about then and 1 that claims to be 122.
www.unilad.com/news/health/maximum-age-humans-can-live-to-science-296127-20240214
So from 1948+122 years = 2070AD.
But Jesus didn't die and rise again in 70AD He died and rose again in 32AD. We are to watch for the signs and Isrsel being reborn as a nation was A massive sign to help us understand the window had been opened.
Jesus also says in Matthew 24:21-22 NLT
21 For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. 22 In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones.
If Jesus waits to the year 6000 we will have caused our own extinction. This is what He's saying. So in fact, all these things I mentioned at the top is the LORD's way of showing us where on the timeline we are.
Now you can believe whatever you choose. I am simply here to try to clarify the topic a little and try to help with the first step. Premillennialism is a 3000-year-old view going back to Moses in the first 5 books of Scripture. That history shows that from Adam to Jesus is just under 4000 years and that the destruction of the Temple was in the year 4000. That we are not quite 2000 years from the destruction of the Temple but we can't say Jesus could return 500 or 1000 years from now. Or as I heard recently, it's been 2000 years since Jesus and it could be 2000 years more, we just don't know. This is a false teaching.
We think that the LORD is slow that somehow because of some simple errors we throw out the whole view. Many Christians I also think that if the Premill view is correct that somehow Jesus's return is a loss for us.
It makes me wonder how many believers in the OT must have debated that the Messiah must not really die, that those passages must have meant something else. Here's why I do this.
I believe that WW3 and terrible times are coming because of what Jesus said. My concern is that many Christians will fall away from the faith because they haven't considered this view a biblical one. I would much rather be wrong and look foolish then not say something and have Christians lose faith in the LORD because events in the world don't match their image of Eschatology.
Take care. I hope this helps.
While, we may all be wrong, we can’t all be right. Nice antidotes, stories and illustrations, but no substance.
So where do I go to get an expositional teaching of the Book of Revelation? Daniel? Zachariah? That is verse by verse that explains it in a Post Millennial understanding? Could it be that unlike the Premillennialist that try for an expositional teaching of these books, thus causing some disagreements Post Millennialist just simple throw their hands in the air "well it doesn't mean that" so they don't try? I don't know. However I have not heard the verse by verse teaching from you guys yet on Revelation.
Bruce Gore has a very in depth study of Revelation on his channel, the playlist is 60 videos long if you are genuinely interested in a very detailed study of the postmil preterist understanding. I'm not sure about this particular series, but I believe a lot of the stuff on his channel is adapted from his university courses on Biblical topics, though given in a bit more informal a setting.
ua-cam.com/play/PLYFBLkHop2anlJ9wrDXdhugr95AJ3dMKA.html
The types of resources you want are out there if you are willing to look. I think its more that premil, and especially dispensationalism, has had an overinflated sense of importance of the doctrine of end times, plus it is more sensationalistic, so it's a lot easier to find and in more demand.
or may be get the book titled; Revelation Four Views
If you want to know the method of interpretation that most accurately lays out what the reformers and Puritans actually believed, then I’d recommend the longest and most exhaustive writing on the apocalypse that I know of, which is E.B. Elliot’s Horae Apocalypticae.
David Chilton's Days of Vengeance and Kenneth Gentry's He Shall Have Dominion and Before Jerusalem Fell are good reads on the Postmillenarian scheme. Look also for Biblical Hermeneutics by Milton Terry or Apocalypse I think the title of his book is
When and where is the tha Marriage Supper of the Lamb?
CREC fot the win 😂😁👍
I dont oppose postmill. I oppose the doctrine of theonomy. Sewing new patch on old cloth. Mixing old covenant with the new. Its Catholic light.
I’d like some good sources of information opposing theonomy. Personally I don’t believe theonomy will ever change the world. Only the preaching of the gospel
@@Matthew-bu5pq Amen. The Gospel is what brings His enemies under His feet. They stop being enemies and become friends. It's a message of reconciliation. Not achieved by theonomy crusade. Calvin had his opposers burnt at the stake. His followers can be nasty. Love wins, not Judaistic Sharia law
@@mjack3521 the only person burned under Calvin's jurisdiction was a heretic named Michael Servetus. And theonomy and postmillennialism are not tied together, for a lack of a better term. Classical postmillennialism had nothing to do with theonomy, which I think was created by Rousas John Rushdonny in the 20th century. You can be Postmillenarian like Sproul and Mathison without adhering to Christian reconstruction like Chilton and Gentry
@@mjack3521 and furthermore, theonomists don't teach that theonomy will convert people to Christ. They simply believe that once converted to the Faith via the gospel of Jesus Christ, the nations will follow biblical law. What you claimed is really a misrepresentation of what theonomists teach. I know, I have read Greg Bahsen, Gentry, Chilton, DeMar and Rushdoony, James Jordan and Peter Leithart
@@kevinevans8892 Are you a Jew?
He made a better amillennialist.
Still waiting for the definition of postmillennialism. I love James White and listen to him all the time, but postmillennialism still doesn't make any sense and he didn't even seem to try to convince me of this doctrine in this video. I wonder how much he actually believes in this. I appreciate how gracious he is towards other eschatological views.
Postmillennialism is the view that the current church age coincides with the millennium. At the death, burial and glorious resurrection of Jesus Christ, Satan was, in a sense, bound (Revelation 20:1-3). The Kingdom of God that Jesus brought into the world at His First Advent (Colossians 1:13) is really the millennial reign of Christ, Who now reigns in the heavens at the right hand of God the Father. The millennium is now 2000 years and counting. Unlike the Old Testament age in which mainly Israel served Yahweh -- the true and living God -- God is now served throughout the entire globe by millions of Gentiles -+ something that was almost unheard of in the Old Testament. The Kingdom is expanding because Satan has been restricted by the Lord. Remember, the Gentile nations all served Baal, Chemosh, Ra, along with other pagan gods.
This is the only subject where I see Dr White appeal to feelings rather than scripture. It has always been a disappointment trying to understand the basis for his conversion of eschatology as hinging on his hope for seeing grandchildren. I don't think the doctrine of eminency precludes a desire to see your descendants, but it would seem to detour changing end times beliefs to accommodate a hopefulness of a budding utopia for them.
The doctrine of imminency must be discarded ASAP. The failed prophetic suggestions in Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth that Jesus might return before 1988 has all but sounded the death knell of imminency
Why should I even bother watching, things ARE NOT getting better, and you can tell so since October last year.
Isaiah 2:4 New International Version He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.
Then the 1,000 Years where Isaiah 11:6-9
New International Version
6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling[a] together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.
CAN HAPPEN
Church is the name of the daughter of Helios the Sun deity. She changed men she saduced int animals, mostly swine