Just bought a used mobility scooter with two newer lithium type battery packs and a lead acid battery pack. I was given one lead acid battery charger with the set. So yes, using the lead acid charger with both. Keep the lead acid battery plugged in, unplug the lithium as soon as it is charged. Lead acid likes 100% and being topping off as often as possible, and dosen't like to drop below 50%. Lithium likes to hang out at 40% when not being used, but will go lower with better rebound than lead acid. Lithium hates being over-charged. Not being quite topped off shouldn't hurt lithium.
@@OWK000disagree my scooter ppl recommend slow change with both..In 6 months I worn out my AGM lead acid I could only get about 12 Kay's outta em now with speed loss after 5...I hope lithium will do me proud..2500 Kay's+ in 7 months...cop that boys&girls💪🤭🤪🤠😁
Yes I had been...I have an xs power lithium battery and it says charge and stuff but didn't say with what. So I didn't know. It charged the battery to full or so I thought it was full charge.
> Have you been charging your lithium with a lead-acid charger? If you mean "a charger without a lithium profile", then yes. IMO most Li profiles are poorly set up, ambiguously documented, stress the chemistry with excess Absorption voltage and duration, and confuse consumers with cycling between Absorption and the reBulk setpoint. I even charge my LiFePO4 bank directly off the alternator (VSR), which may cause sinking spells among onlookers.
Any charger with configurable setpoints can be used to charge LiFePO4. All it takes is an understanding of what the LiFePO4 needs and what the charger can do. WIthout that information we are guessing/flailing/hoping. I encourage anyone who wants to understand how this stuff works to follow WIll Prowse, Offgrid Garage, or just spend some time learning about chargers and battery chemistries.
@@claydo364 > Or trust the scooter specialist... In 6 months I worn out my AGM lead acid I could only get about 12 Kay's outta em Decent deep cycle AGM *charged to battery manufacturer specs* will last ≥1,000 cycles to 50% DoD before they are end of life (
How hard is it..Wack a few wires on here Wack a few wires on here... butter boom butter bang ya batteries charged😁... What I wanna know is how big of a solar power panel will the council have to get(for ME) to build a charging station for my 12 volt 6 amp charger 🤔🤭👑💪🤠
Those charts are spot on. With a small meter spliced into lead acid charger output leads, charger unplugged from 110v and connected to battery, it shows battery volts, then charger connected to 110v AND to battery, it shows charger output. It takes the battery up to 14+ volts for a while, then settles down some, gradually to float. As the battery ages, it takes longer to settle down, telling you it is nearing replacement time. Some settle down in a few minutes, some take several hours, some a day or more. They are telling us a story. I am speaking of cranking lead acid batteries, not deeply discharged trolling batteries and such. I use one charger per garage with long deltran leads, and connect to several different batteries in rotation and it's easy to know which will be the next to go. I have a couple of batteries over 8 years old, still trucking along! Todays trickle chargers are pretty dang smart!
There are numerous mistakes in this video. Many 12V chargers with a built in AGM profile (typically 14.4V absorption) will have no problem charging a 12.8V LiFePO4 lithium battery up to very nearly 100% SOC. You should be using an AGM lead acid charging profile for comparison, not a Flooded Lead Acid profile. 1) The quote at 0:25 “really if you have something that charges the lead acid you can go to an AGM there's no real concern” isn’t correct. There are two main concerns with using a flooded lead acid charging profile on an AGM lead acid battery. One concern is that the charging voltage could be too high. Some FLA chargers have absorption voltages that are higher than the typically recommended 14.4V absorption voltage for AGM lead acid batteries. The other concern is that many FLA chargers have a built in recondition/de-sulfation stage or as shown in the video “mild equalization” stage of 15.5V. A recondition/repair/de-sulfation/“mild equalize” charge should not be used with AGM lead acid batteries. That is why when set to AGM there is no such stage of charging included in the charging profile. I know of only one manufacturer that allows reconditioning of their AGM batteries, and it’s only under very specific conditions. 2) The quote at 0:39: “we have the absorption or where it's really kind of taken in at a steady state” is incorrect. During absorption the charging current slowly drops as the battery gets closer and closer to a 100% state of charge. At the end of the absorption stage the battery should be at, or very near, 100% SOC. 3) The quote at 0:45 “then we have the float charging which is getting it all the way up to 100 kind of slow that's your float charging” is incorrect. As mentioned above the absorption stage is where the battery is slowly brought up to 100% SOC. 4) This same mistake is again used to demonstrate the theory behind the claim of only charging an LFP battery to 70 to 80%, at the 2:08 mark of the video: “I'm going to bring in is a line here and that is going to show you where that float charging period is on a lead acid charger remember that's that last stage and that's where that that lead acid battery gets up to 100 percent at 13.2 volts. Again this is incorrect. 5) At the 2:30 mark of the video where you extend a line across the graphs at the float level of 13.2V to see where it intersects an LFP charge profile does not show the actual percentage of charge reached by an LFP battery. IMO you’re incorrectly backing into the result that you want to attain. An LFP battery would have already attained a very nearly 100% SOC during the absorption stage of charging. In fact a 12.8V LiFePO4 lithium battery would be charged to approximately 95% State Of Charge (or more) by the time the bulk stage of charging is complete. The float stage is designed to maintain a SOC, not to bring the battery up to 100%, nor does it limit the % of charge attained during absorption. Note: The float voltage of flooded lead acid can range for 13.2V to 13.8V, with 13.5V being a widely accepted standard. Due to their low rate of self discharge LFP batteries typically do not require float charging. **Some chargers do not truly float charge the batteries, (NOCO is one brand that doesn’t). Their chargers do not put out a constant voltage in float mode. After absorption is complete they simply monitor the battery voltage and then turn back on when a preset voltage level is reached. NOCO won’t publicly say what that preset voltage is but field testing indicates that the set point is around 12.6V or so.
My experience is that float voltage is 13,7 V for a lead-acid charger. This means it is well suited to charge both a “12 V” lead acid battery and a “12 V” LiFePO4 battery to full charge.
The float stage of a multi-stage charger does not bring a battery up to full charge, that's what the absorption stage does. The float stage is meant to maintain a full charge, not to attain a full charge.
@@tommckelvey3609 Yes, that 13,7 V will “maintain charge” is normally a better description. But in the longer run, batteries at 13,7 V will get to the same state independently if they have been boosted or not at 14,4 V. I guess this is particularly true for Lithium. If it is at float charge for a few days, no absorption is needed, to reach full charge. Could anyone confirm?
@@andersocklind7679 Saying that the float stage is meant to maintain a full charge, not to attain a full charge isn’t just “normally a better description”, it’s always a better description because it’s 100% accurate. Yes a float voltage of 13.7V will eventually bring both lead acid and LFP lithium batteries up to full charge, but what’s the point since the absorption stage always takes place before the float stage? Your claim: “If it is at float charge for a few days, no absorption is needed, to reach full charge” is completely opposite of what actually occurs. How do you propose to initiate the float stage of charging prior to the absorption stage being complete? Due to the much much lower self discharge rate of LFP lithium batteries, and the fact that they aren’t damaged by sitting in a partial state of charge, a float stage isn’t needed after the absorption stage is complete.
@@tommckelvey3609 The reason for the absorption step is to add some overvoltage to speed up the procedure to take the battery to full charge. In the entire charging procedure, the charger pulls the battery up in voltage by gradually increasing the voltage and adding an overvoltage. The voltage used in the end of the charge cycle, the absorption step, would be harmful to keep for a long time. My thought of reaching full charge using float voltage was based on the idea of allowing the charge to take longer time and not add the same overvoltage. Imagine two discharged batteries. One battery charged by a standard charger. One battery just connected to a voltage source of 13,7 V. The first battery will obviously go through a charging procedure that charge the battery in reasonable time. The second battery will be charged very slow when the battery state of charge get close to 100 %. The driving force, the overvoltage is low. After some time both batteries will be equally charged.
@@andersocklind7679 I’m well aware that after a long enough period of time both batteries would be equally charged the point here is WHY would you want to do so? IMO you’re attempting to reinvent the wheel without good reason, along with misunderstanding the charing process. We’re talking about battery chargers that already have a built in charging profiles to optimize the charging process. Why would anyone want to forgo that process in favor of just connecting a battery “to a voltage source of 13,7 V”, that would take much longer to fully charge the battery; especially in the case of people using batteries to power electronics and/or a trolling motor on boat that they want to use the very next morning? No good reason that I can think of. Furthermore: The point here has nothing at all to do with the fact that it “would be harmful” to keep a battery at the absorption voltage “for a long time”. Of course it would be harmful to do so, and that’s precisely why chargers are designed not to keep a battery at the absorption voltage for too long. In addition your claim: “The reason for the absorption step is to add some overvoltage to speed up the procedure to take the battery to full charge”, isn’t quite accurate. The absorption stage doesn’t add anymore “overvolatge” than the bulk stage of charging does, and it doesn’t speed up the procedure it actually slows down the rate of charge from the bulk stage. With lead acid batteries the last 20% of charge during the absorption stage can take nearly as long to achieve as the first 80% of charge during the bulk stage of charging. Also your claim: “In the entire charging procedure, the charger pulls the battery up in voltage by gradually increasing the voltage and adding an overvoltage.” Isn’t quite accurate either. The charger itself isn’t actually increasing the voltage gradually during the “entire charging process”. During the absorption stage the charger absolutely does not “pull the battery up in voltage by gradually increasing the voltage”. The absorption stage is a Constant Voltage, the Current naturally decreases as the battery approaches 100% SOC. During the bulk stage of charging the charger is in a Constant Current mode of operation. As a result of a constant current being fed into the battery the voltage of the battery itself naturally increases as it becomes more and more saturated. Again is it possible to fully charge a 12V lead acid battery, or a 12.8V LFP battery with a simple 13.7V power supply? Yes. The question is why do that when a standard charger will do the same job in a much shorter period of time?
I understand your concept but these lifepo4 batteries already have bulit in BMS, under and over charge protection. Why do I need yet another device to regulate charging when there is already one fitted by the manufacturer inside the battery, for this specific purpose?
My understanding is that relying on BMS overvoltage protection to terminate charging is similar to relying on your smoke alarm to tell you your dinner is done cooking. The overvoltage protection is intended more as a safety in the event that something goes wrong with the charger and it doesn't terminate the charge when it should.
So if I don't have a converter that handles lithium batteries, but the solar charge controller does have a lithium setting would the solar not top the battery off after the 80% from the converter?
@@goodmanfishing Just watched an expert electrician and RV camper saying AGM charger is fine for lithium because BMS would shut off charging at 14.4v even if AGM charger wants to charge it to 14.8v
The BMS might not allow any charge, because it wants to see an incoming 14.4 max voltage, and the 14.8 exceeds that. It's not like it charges to 14.4 and then shuts off. It measures incoming voltage, and if over its threshold, say 14.8 vs 14.4 it just shuts down the battery and charging altogether, and won't even begin to allow it to charge.@@michaelmedicworldoftanks33fps
@@bennyblanko3 well then if it won't allow anymore charge it might charge lithium to 95% maximum which is still fine as it's not going to kill the battery 😁
No, you missed the point. The battery management system (BMS) see's an input voltage above it's 12.4 limit (not battery charge level, but actually monitoring the input from the charger), and instantly disconnects so no charge will come in at all. @@michaelmedicworldoftanks33fps
Can you advise me the different voltages to be regulated for charging a 100 ah 25 volt lithium battery on different stages like, bulk, absorption and floating with a MPPT charge controller.
It doesn't need to be on the charger longer. A 12V lead acid battery charger set to AGM mode will fully charge a LiFePO4 lithium battery. The idea in the video that the battery battery would only reach a 70 to 80% state of charge because the "float voltage" is what's supposed to bring the battery up to 100% SOC, is absolutely false. The float stage of charging isn't meant to charge the battery, it's meant to maintain a charge. A LiFePO4 lithium battery would be fully charged to 100% during the absorption stage of charging.
I've been charging my lev60f 12 volt bank with an old school charger at 20amps for a while now with no issues. I just keep an eye on it. They say you should charge lipo4 over 14 volts but when it's in my car it's charging at 14.4-14.8 anyway so what's the difference?
@@Mattlawton-ft6ew Working great for me so far. 147ah of Lev60F. Received 8 cells and I charged them with a old school, I mean an old school lead acid charger. They all came in at exactly 3.0 and after connecting them I closely monitored the charge (with no balancer) and they all charged equally within .03 at 14.6 and I'm using them to power 6k with a JS 370amp alt using a cell capacity monitor at my dash, they all stay within .05 without a balancer and I abuse my system. These lev60 lipo4 cells kick ass.
Ty for this video. I vouldnt find one do simolistic and precise. Ty! Do you know if i can run a 36 lb thrust trolling motor off of a 12V10 amp hour "li ion battery"?
On the battery question, you would need to know the max discharge rate. Usually it is 1C, or one capacity of the battery. So a 10Ah battery would deliver a max constant current of 10A, which isn't enough for the trolling motor. I would consider a 50Ah battery as a minimum size for a trolling motor. I have a video on a 50Ah LiTime
Because of the BMS working together. Need to be same mfg. And purchased with in 6 months of each other. Connect in seares to get the voltage you need and parell to get the Amp hour's you need.
In many cases, the low internal resistance of a lithium battery can significantly over work a stator or alternator, leading to premature failure. Check with the OEM recommendation.
Hey guys, i need a quick answer please. So i have an Lithium batzery in my car and i want to unplug it für 5 months now. How do i keep it alive? Can i put on normal charger the whole 5 months or specifically on lithium charger? Or do i have to put it like all 3 days for 5 hours fpr example?
I'm about to get my first LiFePO4 trolling battery... So, the Wise charger isn't weatherproof, but will it stand up to occasional exposure to really high humidity? It will live in the garage, and be taken to the boat only when needed. It will never get "wet", but I live in a hot, humid climate, and it will sometimes rain on charge day. The boat does live under a nice carport, and this was never a problem with my cheap, "standard" chargers.
I use the Noco 10 you have there on my LiPo4 Litime 100ah 12v battery bit it only chargers to 99%. Any idea why? Is this bad long term ? I top the battery up with a Lithium 5 Amp charger to 100 %
I have a question I can’t really find an answer to on my engine website my boat has a 40/50amp stater at 4670 rpm I’m holding 14v charging do you think even if it’s charging a lead acid battery I can get away with running a lithium or 2 wired in parallel to up my run time?
Thanks for the video, very useful. I'm a bit confused regarding the different charger profiles vis-a-vis the vehicle charging system. Lithium batteries are used in vehicles that were designed for regular AGM/Lead type and they work just fine. Following your explanation a Lithium battery would not survive, or at least underperform, on a car/boat/motorbike designed for Lead batteries given the different charging profile. With very few exceptions most vehicles comes with Lead type batteries. Can you explain this discrepancy?
I’ll take a shot at it. First, the intention of the video is for deep cycle applications, not cranking. Deep discharging and recharging. Many times they are not recharged as the engine runs. When it comes to cranking, those are typically very small capacity batteries,like 8Ah. The quick starting discharge is relatively a small impact to the battery and it is quickly recharged at the proper voltage. The charge voltage is important and still needs to be above 14v, which is typical for many alternators.
@@goodmanfishing I have a car or two with lead acid starter batteries. During covid we hardly drove the car(S) and the lead acid starter batteries were in trouble. I had a battery go down with a door not closed tight. The battery was 6 or 7 years old. I had just bought a solar panel and cheap pwm charge controller and used it on the car battery to charge it up. We drove to the bank a mile away and then the car wouldn't start again. I walked home got the other car and jumper cables. I ended up putting the solar panel on the battery every day during the day so it would be charged up when we went shopping to buy a new battery. Because covid, things moved slow. I noticed a curious thing. Every day, the battery would retain 1/10 more voltage overnight than the night before. After a week or so I recovered the battery to full working order. It was amazing. My experience: lead acid batteries kinda hate 14.4 volts unless they are all charged up and close to that voltage before the alternator starts charging. The cheap pwm charge controller would charge the somewhat depleted battery at one tenth of a volt more than whatever the standing voltage was. A battery at 11.2 volt finds it much easier to accept a charge at 11.3 volts than 14.4 volts.
what makes you think they are performing just fine . How miney have you tested after 5 years of service and have you tracked alternator failures on those vehicles?
If you’re in an older RV and originally built with lead acid batteries there is an inexpensive solution to run Lithium batteries. Progressive Dynamics inc. has a remote Pendant that plugs into the rv power supply 9100 models. 25$ and I’ve been using it for a year.
Could you also explain the reverse? I have a lithium ion battery on my motorcycle.. and want to switch to a lead acid (more easily available) .. would this cause issues? Does an alternator differ for a lithium ion setup compared to a lead acid battery setup?
I would expect the voltage regulator on the bike to target a higher voltage output than the lead acid would prefer. You would want to know the charging voltage. The lead acid may be easier to get, but the lithium should last a few years.
I have read that a LiFePO4 battery is not optimized for longevity when charged to 100 or discharged to zero but, rather optimal range is 80 to 20. If that is true then wouldn't the lead acid profile charger charge closer to the optimal top end of the range than a higher voltage lithium charger?
The BMS will manage the current going to the cells to slow the 0-20 and 80-100 charge rate. But yes, reducing the depth of discharge helps a lot and not fully charging to 100% every time helps as well. You still need to get the battery to 100% for proper cell balancing. A lead acid charger will not do that.
@@goodmanfishing Good info! Let me know if you think this sounds OK. I've charged 4 12v LFP batts individually with my NOCO 10x4 to full capacity, then balanced the 4 batteries with each other in parallel (each battery has it's own BMS to balance it's own cells). Now I'm ready to install these 4 balanced batts in series for 48v and am thinking that I should use my lead acid 48v charger to charge them from now on in operation. The reason being as I suggested above is that the lead acid charge profile will not push the LFP batts to 100% each time and hopefully give them longer cycle life. I am planning on manually making sure that I don't run them down below 20% which really shouldn't be a problem. Does this sound proper to you? I know your video title is about not using the lead acid charger, that's why I found it, but maybe in this way the lead acid charger might it be better for LFP longevity?
@@youtubular007 in theory I don't see an issue with doing that. You will need to periodically balance the batteries and bring them to 100% with a lithium charger.
you are wrong you charge to 100 present the first time to equalize the cells. In normal use for maximum buttery life you operate from 80 to 20 present not to equalize. The battery will need to be fully charged up to five tines to reach its maximum power. You do not have to discharge to 0 . Long term storage is 50 present.
Lead acid batteries typically require a constant voltage charging profile, where the voltage is held constant and the current decreases as the battery charges. On the other hand, lithium batteries require a constant current-constant voltage (CC-CV) charging profile, where the current is held constant until the battery reaches a certain voltage level, after which the voltage is held constant. Using a lithium charger to charge a lead acid battery can result in overcharging, which can lead to excessive gassing, heat generation, and potential damage to the battery. It can also be dangerous as overcharging a lead acid battery can cause it to release hydrogen gas, which is explosive.
This might be a silly question but it must be asked. If my chassis battery “lead”in my RV is dead can I hit the boost button and get a charge from the lithium house batteries to start my engine? I don’t want to cross swords if you know what I mean. From the lack of information regarding this question I would presume it’s safe. What say they?
Not all lithium is rated for high amp charging but it doesn’t matter many lead acid chargers have multiple settings most of the chargers put out near 15 volts and plenty of amps in higher settings. But I don’t own junk new chargers that I can’t control
How about using an xs power 12v lithium charger on my cars lead acid battery? My regular battery charger dies and the battery in my car is low...not dead. I have the car all opened up sitting outside so gassing shouldn't be a problem. Anyone?
Do you change your vehicles charging system when you switch to a lithium battery ( the answer is NO ) TO EVERYONE IN UA-cam LAND I'm an electronic engineer If I need a special lithium battery charger to charge a lithium motorcycle OR CAR battery THEN WHY AM I NOT CHANGING THE ALTERNATOR AND VOLTAGE REGULATOR ON MY BIKE OR CAR(THAY ARE FOR LED ACID )
the BMS ( Battery Management System ) "in" the lithium battery dose this for us !!! please do not give out False info . the battery is made at the factory as a direct replacement (hens the name "motorcycle" OR CAR battery) for a led acid battery AND "DOSE NOT REQURE A special CHARGER" !! IF IT DID THE BATTERY WOULD DIE IN LESS THEN 6MOUTHS FROM UNDERCHARGI NG
Float *mode* isn't the problem. I mean you could "float" at 12.5v if you wanted. The problem is holding Li at high SoC and/or voltage for long periods. In a shore power setting (charging Li trolling battery at home) no float is required at all since the Li self-discharge rate is insignificant. In an offgrid scenario (charging Li from solar) a float of ≤13.4v will let the panels support the loads while allowing the battery to relax from 100%.
So technically it’s not so bad for the lifepo4 if you don’t have a lithium charger around, because the battery should not damage by depleting? Build one in a camper and the transformer does not support lithium, the solar system does so should top it up!
I am using a lead acid battery charger in parallel with a lifepo4 one to boost the recharge speed of a 300 AH lifepo4 battery. Sure the lead acid charger doesnt work great when the battery crosses 50% State of charge but below that it definitely helps boost that recharge speed. My lead acid charger is integrated into the inverter as a 2 in one device and its either on or off in regards to charging and I see no reason to turn it off. My lead acid charger is 30 amps and I have two lifepo4 chargers, one 10A and the other 30A. The battery is well within spec to be recharged off all those chsrgers at the same time running from a couple kilowatt generator but I am sure that would burn out most alternators.
@@goodmanfishing The play is at first base: don't drive the cells out of balance with excess current/voltage in the first place then they won't have to be balanced. I charge mine to 3.45Vpc and they stay within 4-6mV at ~100% SoC.
It is not a safety issue it's longevity issue. Your battery's well last londer if normal operation is between 80 and. 20 present. You need to charge to 100 up 5 times befor you connect in series orn parell to obtain maximum power.
Also another point you have left out is that the internal resistance of a lead acid battery is quite high compared to lifepo4 battery which has almost 0 ohms resistance. This means that a lifrpo4 battery will actually draw very high amps from any charger it is connected to, much like if the charger is connected to a direct short. This can easily wear out or destroy any charger or ALTERNATOR you connect the lifepo4 to, unless you do some tricky circuitry in between. So unless you are an electrical engineer you should listen to this man. Don't do it.
Have you been charging your lithium with a lead-acid charger?
Just bought a used mobility scooter with two newer lithium type battery packs and a lead acid battery pack. I was given one lead acid battery charger with the set. So yes, using the lead acid charger with both. Keep the lead acid battery plugged in, unplug the lithium as soon as it is charged. Lead acid likes 100% and being topping off as often as possible, and dosen't like to drop below 50%. Lithium likes to hang out at 40% when not being used, but will go lower with better rebound than lead acid. Lithium hates being over-charged. Not being quite topped off shouldn't hurt lithium.
@@OWK000 YES i HAVE the one in my car from the factory
@@OWK000disagree my scooter ppl recommend slow change with both..In 6 months I worn out my AGM lead acid I could only get about 12 Kay's outta em now with speed loss after 5...I hope lithium will do me proud..2500 Kay's+ in 7 months...cop that boys&girls💪🤭🤪🤠😁
Yes I had been...I have an xs power lithium battery and it says charge and stuff but didn't say with what. So I didn't know. It charged the battery to full or so I thought it was full charge.
> Have you been charging your lithium with a lead-acid charger?
If you mean "a charger without a lithium profile", then yes. IMO most Li profiles are poorly set up, ambiguously documented, stress the chemistry with excess Absorption voltage and duration, and confuse consumers with cycling between Absorption and the reBulk setpoint.
I even charge my LiFePO4 bank directly off the alternator (VSR), which may cause sinking spells among onlookers.
That was the most productive five minutes and forty seconds I’ve spend this week. My knowledge banks were efficiently charged. Thank you.
Any charger with configurable setpoints can be used to charge LiFePO4. All it takes is an understanding of what the LiFePO4 needs and what the charger can do. WIthout that information we are guessing/flailing/hoping.
I encourage anyone who wants to understand how this stuff works to follow WIll Prowse, Offgrid Garage, or just spend some time learning about chargers and battery chemistries.
💯
Or trust the scooter specialist
@@claydo364 > Or trust the scooter specialist... In 6 months I worn out my AGM lead acid I could only get about 12 Kay's outta em
Decent deep cycle AGM *charged to battery manufacturer specs* will last ≥1,000 cycles to 50% DoD before they are end of life (
How hard is it..Wack a few wires on here Wack a few wires on here... butter boom butter bang ya batteries charged😁... What I wanna know is how big of a solar power panel will the council have to get(for ME) to build a charging station for my 12 volt 6 amp charger 🤔🤭👑💪🤠
Great video, and the balancing function of the LiFePO4 would never be activated at that low voltage.
Those charts are spot on. With a small meter spliced into lead acid charger output leads, charger unplugged from 110v and connected to battery, it shows battery volts, then charger connected to 110v AND to battery, it shows charger output. It takes the battery up to 14+ volts for a while, then settles down some, gradually to float. As the battery ages, it takes longer to settle down, telling you it is nearing replacement time. Some settle down in a few minutes, some take several hours, some a day or more. They are telling us a story. I am speaking of cranking lead acid batteries, not deeply discharged trolling batteries and such. I use one charger per garage with long deltran leads, and connect to several different batteries in rotation and it's easy to know which will be the next to go. I have a couple of batteries over 8 years old, still trucking along! Todays trickle chargers are pretty dang smart!
There are numerous mistakes in this video.
Many 12V chargers with a built in AGM profile (typically 14.4V absorption) will have no problem charging a 12.8V LiFePO4 lithium battery up to very nearly 100% SOC.
You should be using an AGM lead acid charging profile for comparison, not a Flooded Lead Acid profile.
1) The quote at 0:25 “really if you have something that charges the lead acid you can go to an AGM there's no real concern” isn’t correct.
There are two main concerns with using a flooded lead acid charging profile on an AGM lead acid battery.
One concern is that the charging voltage could be too high. Some FLA chargers have absorption voltages that are higher than the typically recommended 14.4V absorption voltage for AGM lead acid batteries.
The other concern is that many FLA chargers have a built in recondition/de-sulfation stage or as shown in the video “mild equalization” stage of 15.5V.
A recondition/repair/de-sulfation/“mild equalize” charge should not be used with AGM lead acid batteries. That is why when set to AGM there is no such stage of charging included in the charging profile. I know of only one manufacturer that allows reconditioning of their AGM batteries, and it’s only under very specific conditions.
2) The quote at 0:39: “we have the absorption or where it's really kind of taken in at a steady state” is incorrect. During absorption the charging current slowly drops as the battery gets closer and closer to a 100% state of charge. At the end of the absorption stage the battery should be at, or very near, 100% SOC.
3) The quote at 0:45 “then we have the float charging which is getting it all the way up to 100 kind of slow that's your float charging” is incorrect. As mentioned above the absorption stage is where the battery is slowly brought up to 100% SOC.
4) This same mistake is again used to demonstrate the theory behind the claim of only charging an LFP battery to 70 to 80%, at the 2:08 mark of the video:
“I'm going to bring in is a line here and that is going to show you where that float charging period is on a lead acid charger remember that's that last stage and that's where that that lead acid battery gets up to 100 percent at 13.2 volts. Again this is incorrect.
5) At the 2:30 mark of the video where you extend a line across the graphs at the float level of 13.2V to see where it intersects an LFP charge profile does not show the actual percentage of charge reached by an LFP battery. IMO you’re incorrectly backing into the result that you want to attain. An LFP battery would have already attained a very nearly 100% SOC during the absorption stage of charging. In fact a 12.8V LiFePO4 lithium battery would be charged to approximately 95% State Of Charge (or more) by the time the bulk stage of charging is complete.
The float stage is designed to maintain a SOC, not to bring the battery up to 100%, nor does it limit the % of charge attained during absorption.
Note: The float voltage of flooded lead acid can range for 13.2V to 13.8V, with 13.5V being a widely accepted standard. Due to their low rate of self discharge LFP batteries typically do not require float charging.
**Some chargers do not truly float charge the batteries, (NOCO is one brand that doesn’t). Their chargers do not put out a constant voltage in float mode. After absorption is complete they simply monitor the battery voltage and then turn back on when a preset voltage level is reached. NOCO won’t publicly say what that preset voltage is but field testing indicates that the set point is around 12.6V or so.
Hi can you clarify if car 12 v lithium battery that is 5v fully rechargeable and good to use
If my only issue is not receiving a full charge, then there is no issue. Actually, isn’t 80% a preferable maintenance capacity for lithium?
LFP is more like 95-98% effective capacity 👍
@@goodmanfishing Yes, but isn’t recommended practice for storage 50-80%?
Yes but you need to get to 100% occasionally to balance the cells.
@@somestuffithoughtyoumightl6985I think LFP is good up to 90% unlike cobalt or nickel based lithiums that good to store at 80%
Would it not get there operating the vehicle and it's charging system?@@goodmanfishing
My experience is that float voltage is 13,7 V for a lead-acid charger. This means it is well suited to charge both a “12 V” lead acid battery and a “12 V” LiFePO4 battery to full charge.
The float stage of a multi-stage charger does not bring a battery up to full charge, that's what the absorption stage does. The float stage is meant to maintain a full charge, not to attain a full charge.
@@tommckelvey3609 Yes, that 13,7 V will “maintain charge” is normally a better description. But in the longer run, batteries at 13,7 V will get to the same state independently if they have been boosted or not at 14,4 V. I guess this is particularly true for Lithium. If it is at float charge for a few days, no absorption is needed, to reach full charge. Could anyone confirm?
@@andersocklind7679 Saying that the float stage is meant to maintain a full charge, not to attain a full charge isn’t just
“normally a better description”, it’s always a better description because it’s 100% accurate.
Yes a float voltage of 13.7V will eventually bring both lead acid and LFP lithium batteries up to full charge, but what’s the point since the absorption stage always takes place before the float stage?
Your claim: “If it is at float charge for a few days, no absorption is needed, to reach full charge” is completely opposite of what actually occurs.
How do you propose to initiate the float stage of charging prior to the absorption stage being complete?
Due to the much much lower self discharge rate of LFP lithium batteries, and the fact that they aren’t damaged by sitting in a partial state of charge, a float stage isn’t needed after the absorption stage is complete.
@@tommckelvey3609 The reason for the absorption step is to add some overvoltage to speed up the procedure to take the battery to full charge. In the entire charging procedure, the charger pulls the battery up in voltage by gradually increasing the voltage and adding an overvoltage. The voltage used in the end of the charge cycle, the absorption step, would be harmful to keep for a long time.
My thought of reaching full charge using float voltage was based on the idea of allowing the charge to take longer time and not add the same overvoltage.
Imagine two discharged batteries. One battery charged by a standard charger. One battery just connected to a voltage source of 13,7 V. The first battery will obviously go through a charging procedure that charge the battery in reasonable time. The second battery will be charged very slow when the battery state of charge get close to 100 %. The driving force, the overvoltage is low. After some time both batteries will be equally charged.
@@andersocklind7679 I’m well aware that after a long enough period of time both batteries would be equally charged the point here is WHY would you want to do so?
IMO you’re attempting to reinvent the wheel without good reason, along with misunderstanding the charing process. We’re talking about battery chargers that already have a built in charging profiles to optimize the charging process.
Why would anyone want to forgo that process in favor of just connecting a battery “to a voltage source of 13,7 V”, that would take much longer to fully charge the battery; especially in the case of people using batteries to power electronics and/or a trolling motor on boat that they want to use the very next morning?
No good reason that I can think of.
Furthermore:
The point here has nothing at all to do with the fact that it “would be harmful” to keep a battery at the absorption voltage “for a long time”. Of course it would be harmful to do so, and that’s precisely why chargers are designed not to keep a battery at the absorption voltage for too long.
In addition your claim:
“The reason for the absorption step is to add some overvoltage to speed up the procedure to take the battery to full charge”, isn’t quite accurate.
The absorption stage doesn’t add anymore “overvolatge” than the bulk stage of charging does, and it doesn’t speed up the procedure it actually slows down the rate of charge from the bulk stage.
With lead acid batteries the last 20% of charge during the absorption stage can take nearly as long to achieve as the first 80% of charge during the bulk stage of charging.
Also your claim: “In the entire charging procedure, the charger pulls the battery up in voltage by gradually increasing the voltage and adding an overvoltage.” Isn’t quite accurate either.
The charger itself isn’t actually increasing the voltage gradually during the “entire charging process”.
During the absorption stage the charger absolutely does not “pull the battery up in voltage by gradually increasing the voltage”. The absorption stage is a Constant Voltage, the Current naturally decreases as the battery approaches 100% SOC.
During the bulk stage of charging the charger is in a Constant Current mode of operation. As a result of a constant current being fed into the battery the voltage of the battery itself naturally increases as it becomes more and more saturated.
Again is it possible to fully charge a 12V lead acid battery, or a 12.8V LFP battery with a simple 13.7V power supply? Yes.
The question is why do that when a standard charger will do the same job in a much shorter period of time?
I understand your concept but these lifepo4 batteries already have bulit in BMS, under and over charge protection.
Why do I need yet another device to regulate charging when there is already one fitted by the manufacturer inside the battery, for this specific purpose?
My understanding is that relying on BMS overvoltage protection to terminate charging is similar to relying on your smoke alarm to tell you your dinner is done cooking.
The overvoltage protection is intended more as a safety in the event that something goes wrong with the charger and it doesn't terminate the charge when it should.
OK, so what to do beside replace a lithium ion battery if you ruined it by using an older model Battery Tender?
So if I don't have a converter that handles lithium batteries, but the solar charge controller does have a lithium setting would the solar not top the battery off after the 80% from the converter?
You find an answer to this question?
@SMarti018 yes, it will top the batteries off.
What about AGM battery charger that can output 14.8v?
The charge profile is still very different. I would recommend a charger with a lithium profile.
@@goodmanfishing Just watched an expert electrician and RV camper saying AGM charger is fine for lithium because BMS would shut off charging at 14.4v even if AGM charger wants to charge it to 14.8v
The BMS might not allow any charge, because it wants to see an incoming 14.4 max voltage, and the 14.8 exceeds that. It's not like it charges to 14.4 and then shuts off. It measures incoming voltage, and if over its threshold, say 14.8 vs 14.4 it just shuts down the battery and charging altogether, and won't even begin to allow it to charge.@@michaelmedicworldoftanks33fps
@@bennyblanko3 well then if it won't allow anymore charge it might charge lithium to 95% maximum which is still fine as it's not going to kill the battery 😁
No, you missed the point. The battery management system (BMS) see's an input voltage above it's 12.4 limit (not battery charge level, but actually monitoring the input from the charger), and instantly disconnects so no charge will come in at all. @@michaelmedicworldoftanks33fps
Can you advise me the different voltages to be regulated for charging a 100 ah 25 volt lithium battery on different stages like, bulk, absorption and floating with a MPPT charge controller.
Thank you.. like i kinda knew i just thought it needed to be on charge longer
Glad ot help!
It doesn't need to be on the charger longer. A 12V lead acid battery charger set to AGM mode will fully charge a LiFePO4 lithium battery. The idea in the video that the battery battery would only reach a 70 to 80% state of charge because the "float voltage" is what's supposed to bring the battery up to 100% SOC, is absolutely false. The float stage of charging isn't meant to charge the battery, it's meant to maintain a charge. A LiFePO4 lithium battery would be fully charged to 100% during the absorption stage of charging.
I've been charging my lev60f 12 volt bank with an old school charger at 20amps for a while now with no issues. I just keep an eye on it. They say you should charge lipo4 over 14 volts but when it's in my car it's charging at 14.4-14.8 anyway so what's the difference?
Thats it if it works it works 😉 👍
@@Mattlawton-ft6ew Working great for me so far. 147ah of Lev60F. Received 8 cells and I charged them with a old school, I mean an old school lead acid charger. They all came in at exactly 3.0 and after connecting them I closely monitored the charge (with no balancer) and they all charged equally within .03 at 14.6 and I'm using them to power 6k with a JS 370amp alt using a cell capacity monitor at my dash, they all stay within .05 without a balancer and I abuse my system. These lev60 lipo4 cells kick ass.
@@Hertzsogood219 absolutely 💯
Ty for this video. I vouldnt find one do simolistic and precise. Ty!
Do you know if i can run a 36 lb thrust trolling motor off of a 12V10 amp hour "li ion battery"?
On the battery question, you would need to know the max discharge rate. Usually it is 1C, or one capacity of the battery.
So a 10Ah battery would deliver a max constant current of 10A, which isn't enough for the trolling motor.
I would consider a 50Ah battery as a minimum size for a trolling motor. I have a video on a 50Ah LiTime
it depends if you proper circuitry in the battery itself
What should be used for a single bank multiple battery scenario?
Hmm, not following? If you have multiple batteries, you should have a bank for each one or you will end up with some imbalance.
Because of the BMS working together. Need to be same mfg. And purchased with in 6 months of each other. Connect in seares to get the voltage you need and parell to get the Amp hour's you need.
I have a 20hp outboard motor with an alternator. Would it be safe to connect to a lithium battery for charging on the go?
In many cases, the low internal resistance of a lithium battery can significantly over work a stator or alternator, leading to premature failure. Check with the OEM recommendation.
Thank you for your quick reply 🙌
Is there a solution. Where we can use lead acid battery charger with additional circuitry to charge li ion battery
@@Adarsh_27 I am not aware of a solution for that
Hey guys, i need a quick answer please.
So i have an Lithium batzery in my car and i want to unplug it für 5 months now. How do i keep it alive? Can i put on normal charger the whole 5 months or specifically on lithium charger? Or do i have to put it like all 3 days for 5 hours fpr example?
@@hiibiitch5363 you can just leave it for five months as long as nothing is drawing on it.
I'm about to get my first LiFePO4 trolling battery...
So, the Wise charger isn't weatherproof, but will it stand up to occasional exposure to really high humidity? It will live in the garage, and be taken to the boat only when needed. It will never get "wet", but I live in a hot, humid climate, and it will sometimes rain on charge day. The boat does live under a nice carport, and this was never a problem with my cheap, "standard" chargers.
I've not had any problems with my charger. North Texas is fairly humid 👍
How do I know my battery has charged
Two screw drivers 🤭🤭🤭🤫
I use the Noco 10 you have there on my LiPo4 Litime 100ah 12v battery bit it only chargers to 99%.
Any idea why? Is this bad long term ?
I top the battery up with a Lithium 5 Amp charger to 100 %
@@hodlr8489 how are you determining 99%?
I have a question I can’t really find an answer to on my engine website my boat has a 40/50amp stater at 4670 rpm I’m holding 14v charging do you think even if it’s charging a lead acid battery I can get away with running a lithium or 2 wired in parallel to up my run time?
I ve owned 2 boats 1 with 2 batteries.. Boats do NOT need lithium...geez
Very interesting video !Many thanks
Thanks for the video, very useful. I'm a bit confused regarding the different charger profiles vis-a-vis the vehicle charging system. Lithium batteries are used in vehicles that were designed for regular AGM/Lead type and they work just fine. Following your explanation a Lithium battery would not survive, or at least underperform, on a car/boat/motorbike designed for Lead batteries given the different charging profile. With very few exceptions most vehicles comes with Lead type batteries. Can you explain this discrepancy?
I’ll take a shot at it.
First, the intention of the video is for deep cycle applications, not cranking. Deep discharging and recharging. Many times they are not recharged as the engine runs.
When it comes to cranking, those are typically very small capacity batteries,like 8Ah. The quick starting discharge is relatively a small impact to the battery and it is quickly recharged at the proper voltage. The charge voltage is important and still needs to be above 14v, which is typical for many alternators.
@@goodmanfishing I have a car or two with lead acid starter batteries. During covid we hardly drove the car(S) and the lead acid starter batteries were in trouble. I had a battery go down with a door not closed tight. The battery was 6 or 7 years old. I had just bought a solar panel and cheap pwm charge controller and used it on the car battery to charge it up. We drove to the bank a mile away and then the car wouldn't start again. I walked home got the other car and jumper cables. I ended up putting the solar panel on the battery every day during the day so it would be charged up when we went shopping to buy a new battery. Because covid, things moved slow. I noticed a curious thing. Every day, the battery would retain 1/10 more voltage overnight than the night before. After a week or so I recovered the battery to full working order. It was amazing. My experience: lead acid batteries kinda hate 14.4 volts unless they are all charged up and close to that voltage before the alternator starts charging. The cheap pwm charge controller would charge the somewhat depleted battery at one tenth of a volt more than whatever the standing voltage was. A battery at 11.2 volt finds it much easier to accept a charge at 11.3 volts than 14.4 volts.
what makes you think they are performing just fine . How miney have you tested after 5 years of service and have you tracked alternator failures on those vehicles?
If you’re in an older RV and originally built with lead acid batteries there is an inexpensive solution to run Lithium batteries. Progressive Dynamics inc. has a remote Pendant that plugs into the rv power supply 9100 models. 25$ and I’ve been using it for a year.
Could you also explain the reverse? I have a lithium ion battery on my motorcycle.. and want to switch to a lead acid (more easily available) .. would this cause issues? Does an alternator differ for a lithium ion setup compared to a lead acid battery setup?
I would expect the voltage regulator on the bike to target a higher voltage output than the lead acid would prefer. You would want to know the charging voltage.
The lead acid may be easier to get, but the lithium should last a few years.
If you change battery chemistry you must change the charger unless your charger let's you change the premiters.
PS
You will wind up sending what you save on batteries on new alternators.
I have read that a LiFePO4 battery is not optimized for longevity when charged to 100 or discharged to zero but, rather optimal range is 80 to 20. If that is true then wouldn't the lead acid profile charger charge closer to the optimal top end of the range than a higher voltage lithium charger?
The BMS will manage the current going to the cells to slow the 0-20 and 80-100 charge rate. But yes, reducing the depth of discharge helps a lot and not fully charging to 100% every time helps as well.
You still need to get the battery to 100% for proper cell balancing. A lead acid charger will not do that.
@@goodmanfishing Good info! Let me know if you think this sounds OK. I've charged 4 12v LFP batts individually with my NOCO 10x4 to full capacity, then balanced the 4 batteries with each other in parallel (each battery has it's own BMS to balance it's own cells). Now I'm ready to install these 4 balanced batts in series for 48v and am thinking that I should use my lead acid 48v charger to charge them from now on in operation. The reason being as I suggested above is that the lead acid charge profile will not push the LFP batts to 100% each time and hopefully give them longer cycle life. I am planning on manually making sure that I don't run them down below 20% which really shouldn't be a problem. Does this sound proper to you? I know your video title is about not using the lead acid charger, that's why I found it, but maybe in this way the lead acid charger might it be better for LFP longevity?
@@youtubular007 in theory I don't see an issue with doing that. You will need to periodically balance the batteries and bring them to 100% with a lithium charger.
you are wrong you charge to 100 present the first time to equalize the cells. In normal use for maximum buttery life you operate from 80 to 20 present not to equalize. The battery will need to be fully charged up to five tines to reach its maximum power. You do not have to discharge to 0 . Long term storage is 50 present.
Lead acid batteries typically require a constant voltage charging profile, where the voltage is held constant and the current decreases as the battery charges. On the other hand, lithium batteries require a constant current-constant voltage (CC-CV) charging profile, where the current is held constant until the battery reaches a certain voltage level, after which the voltage is held constant.
Using a lithium charger to charge a lead acid battery can result in overcharging, which can lead to excessive gassing, heat generation, and potential damage to the battery. It can also be dangerous as overcharging a lead acid battery can cause it to release hydrogen gas, which is explosive.
If i buy a lithium battery for power backup at my condo can i leave these chargers plugged in 24/7
some of them check the product reviews first.
Will Prowse says to charge to 100 percent. This makes BMS balance cells.
That is correct.
I don't see the value in always charging to 100% with LFP, however.
This might be a silly question but it must be asked.
If my chassis battery “lead”in my RV is dead can I hit the boost button and get a charge from the lithium house batteries to start my engine?
I don’t want to cross swords if you know what I mean.
From the lack of information regarding this question I would presume it’s safe.
What say they?
I hit the button all the time no problems. Aux on the dash joins the power of my lithium and my start batteries.
I bought a nice aluminum multiple purpose charger On amazon and it ruined my lead acid
Not all lithium is rated for high amp charging but it doesn’t matter many lead acid chargers have multiple settings most of the chargers put out near 15 volts and plenty of amps in higher settings. But I don’t own junk new chargers that I can’t control
How about using an xs power 12v lithium charger on my cars lead acid battery?
My regular battery charger dies and the battery in my car is low...not dead.
I have the car all opened up sitting outside so gassing shouldn't be a problem.
Anyone?
Do you change your vehicles charging system when you switch to a lithium battery ( the answer is NO )
TO EVERYONE IN UA-cam LAND
I'm an electronic engineer
If I need a special lithium battery charger to charge a lithium motorcycle OR CAR battery
THEN WHY AM I NOT CHANGING THE ALTERNATOR AND VOLTAGE REGULATOR ON MY BIKE OR CAR(THAY ARE FOR LED ACID )
the BMS ( Battery Management System ) "in" the lithium battery dose this for us !!!
please do not give out False info . the battery is made at the factory as a direct replacement (hens the name "motorcycle" OR CAR battery) for a led acid battery
AND "DOSE NOT REQURE A special CHARGER" !! IF IT DID THE BATTERY WOULD DIE IN LESS THEN 6MOUTHS FROM UNDERCHARGI NG
Is it not healthy to charge the lithium to 80%?
Other sources claim a lead acid charger will damage your lithium battery because of the float mode slowly frying it. Is that true or not?
no, the BMS will terminate the charge once it reaches 100%
yes yes yes .......................
Float *mode* isn't the problem. I mean you could "float" at 12.5v if you wanted. The problem is holding Li at high SoC and/or voltage for long periods.
In a shore power setting (charging Li trolling battery at home) no float is required at all since the Li self-discharge rate is insignificant. In an offgrid scenario (charging Li from solar) a float of ≤13.4v will let the panels support the loads while allowing the battery to relax from 100%.
First time i know...charger for led acid battery can be used on lifepo4 battery😮
This is bull. You are using a Dakota fact sheet that is not a bias opinion from the manufacturer
Which part do you disagree with?
Yes you can
So technically it’s not so bad for the lifepo4 if you don’t have a lithium charger around, because the battery should not damage by depleting? Build one in a camper and the transformer does not support lithium, the solar system does so should top it up!
Hi can you charge 36v18650 battery on a 36v lifepo4 battery charger
sounds like a good way to not go above 90% charge and avoid degrading a lithium battery
While true, the battery must be occasionally charged to 100% to balance the cells. That's quite important to long life and overall performance.
I am using a lead acid battery charger in parallel with a lifepo4 one to boost the recharge speed of a 300 AH lifepo4 battery. Sure the lead acid charger doesnt work great when the battery crosses 50% State of charge but below that it definitely helps boost that recharge speed. My lead acid charger is integrated into the inverter as a 2 in one device and its either on or off in regards to charging and I see no reason to turn it off. My lead acid charger is 30 amps and I have two lifepo4 chargers, one 10A and the other 30A. The battery is well within spec to be recharged off all those chsrgers at the same time running from a couple kilowatt generator but I am sure that would burn out most alternators.
That certainly would work as a "booster". Thanks for sharing.
My concern was more about safety so it seems it’s okay if only want to daily charge charge your lithium battery to 80%
You really need to get it up to 100% occasionally to balance the cells.
@@goodmanfishing The play is at first base: don't drive the cells out of balance with excess current/voltage in the first place then they won't have to be balanced.
I charge mine to 3.45Vpc and they stay within 4-6mV at ~100% SoC.
It is not a safety issue it's longevity issue. Your battery's well last londer if normal operation is between 80 and. 20 present. You need to charge to 100 up 5 times befor you connect in series orn parell to obtain maximum power.
One thing I did was run a 120v AC /12v DC 10a through a solar charge controller to charge my Lifepo4.
how a car or motorcycle charge lithium iron oxide battery used for starting???
all that talk but you didn't really say anything... why waste time?
Also another point you have left out is that the internal resistance of a lead acid battery is quite high compared to lifepo4 battery which has almost 0 ohms resistance. This means that a lifrpo4 battery will actually draw very high amps from any charger it is connected to, much like if the charger is connected to a direct short. This can easily wear out or destroy any charger or ALTERNATOR you connect the lifepo4 to, unless you do some tricky circuitry in between. So unless you are an electrical engineer you should listen to this man. Don't do it.