Ok, so the actual perception is: 3000 alternator rpm if created from a 1000rpm engine with general overdrive of ratio 3 gives healthy 40ish degrees and 78.9 Amps off of a 70a Citroen Alternator. Good. Real verdict of this video without the voice is that a fully loaded alternator should not be operated below 1000 engine rpm (=do not 100% load in idle, which is not hard to understand) but is very fine when driving (lets say approx. 2000 engine rpm). Regarding Lithium everybody should know that a lead acid battery as a buffer to avoid load off voltages and then DCDC off to a Lithium with current limiting to a current value/number below (80%) the alternator limit is a good ballpark.
The moral of the video is that due to the lithium battery the voltage during charge will not go up until the battery is charged and this causes the alternator to get overworked. 3000rpm is still low for an alternator to be cooled well! So over time bearings/coils ect will suffer and fail. the ballpark for a dcdc converter to limit the output would be about 50%
From things I have saw dcdc as you mention is way to go. I want to build a lawnmower type engine to alt setup. And after watching this stuff dc to dc is looking more inline. I think @victronenergy should revisit this and produce a new video with new offerings or products out there.
In an internal combustion engine situation, the alternator typically runs at 3 times crank speed. So 1500 crankshaft rpm = 4500 alternator rpm = way out of danger zone. Your test rig seemed to run alternator rpm = motor rpm = overheat problem
An engine is often at idle or just above...At idle this is 800x3 is 2400rpm, which is quite nicely in the danger zone. Even on 4500 rpm with an output at 110-120% of the design power is problematic as well.
@@johannesboonstra6917 An IC engine does not operate at constant rpm. Most are now automatic, so there is no direct correlation between rpm and gear ratio. On acceleration, engine rpm will flare to 2000-2500 and hold there. That's 6000-7500 alternator rpm. At urban cruise speed, torque converter lock-up does not occur, and transmission does not shift into 1:1 drive ratio or above, keeping engine rpm high. On cold start up, powertrain management inhibits higher gear ratios to enhance driveability and reduce warm-up time. Idle speed is also increased during engine warm-up In open road driving, engine rpm is easily 2000rpm until warmed up A 50Ah battery that requires 10Ah to recharge (ie is 20% depleted), will only take 6 minutes to recharge @ 100A. The car is still warming up after 6 minutes The maths does not support your position
;-) , I did a few hundred installs so I do know how an alternator works, thank you! . But your theory is a bit off I am afraid. Of course when the battery is about full you dont need to worry, but that's quite rare on a household battery. And we not only talking about a 50Ah battery in a small truck, We are talking about serious lithium systems up to a few hundred Ah. These will not raise the battery voltage until full so this means the alternator will go more the full throttle. This because the regulator steers max current to the rotor until the voltage on the battery does go up ( THATS the major difference with a lead battery here) often 110-120%. When the alternator 100A a quite large part goes into the engine when its a little bit modern one and its connected system itself, so perhaps there is 40-60A to charge the lithium. When charging the battery with an alternator in a boat machine room for example, the average rpm is just above idle. So then the rpm is way below the optimal cooling speed and the output is far over 100%. This means simple that for a 200Ah lithium the alternator needs to work max for a couple of hours. The heat is generates is 50% of the output power , so that's immense. Believe it or not, but this will make sure the lifespan is pretty short. I have given others also this advise when you want to prove I am wrong, Take an empty 200Ah ithium battery and use the jumper cord on you car , just let the motor idle and see whats happening (only when you still have warranty on the car). to add to this, if you feel you dont want to protect the alternator, that's fine with me of course, we just want to warn as we have seen many alternators fail that way... @@Goodkiwibloke
@@johannesboonstra6917 in any situation where rpm is limited to low rpm range (like motor yacht or diesel), try using a higher overdrive pulley set. This will raise the alternator rpm for the same crankshaft rpm. Instead of a 3:1 step up in a petrol application, try a 5:1 or 6:1 step up. This may require an additional pulley sheeve, but also allows for the addition of a second alternator. 800 crank rpm x 5 = 4000 alternator rpm (or 4800 alternator rpm if 6:1). Also, consider fitting a temperature sensing switch that disconnects the lithium charging contactor if alternator temperature rises too high. It's an easy way to avoid heat failure, like the "thermal fuse" fitted to many power supply transformers - it interrupts the output until the temperature falls to a safe level FYI I have built our house battery to 800Ah 48V lithium (repurposed EV NMC cells), charged by solar. I am an automotive sparky with 40 years experience
Smart external regulators, like the ElectroMaax Pro-X, or Balmar, allow you to control the alternator output at various rpm’s , and they also monitor current flow and temperature to optimize charging and protect the alternator. ElectroMaax also has alternators with separated rectifiers to minimize heat generation in the alternator.
One of many first things i done was swapped my 85amp alternator to a 145amp alternator that was for the same make of Van with Power/heated seats option And at idle (650Rpm) it is rated to 100amps. Other upgrades was thicker copper wire And extra ground points I run a total of 400amps Life4po And 400 watt solar panel And a shore power 115volt outlet And a few Victron products to keep it all together running smooth ...4 years now And no issues
In a vehicle that could be , as there is cooling from outside. When sitting for longer periods in high ambient with high loads on, this could rapidly change though. also with thick cables and extra ground points. It's a matter of cooling power and efficiency. At boats it's even more relevant to consider this.
@@JoFoxynHomer If your van is drawing say 70amps to run And your alt is 140 Your battery will only take 70a from the 140am If you are getting 15v from a 12v system 14 volts is a typical charging voltage. (14.4 is perfect) If you're running 15+ then you most likely have a voltage regulator issue and your battery is being overcharged. with no real information And many factors i could not give you a pin point reason as you left out why you need a 140 alt or which van If you upgraded more than the alt And if you are using other items ...2nd battery, Type, size, etc etc Do your home work before making upgrades
@@JoFoxynHomer your starter battery is only needed to start the engine, thats done with 0,2Ah only as it's so short. The alternator feeds this right back in and then powers the energy for the engine systems and in-car systems.
This is spot on for sailing boat install. I am converting to LiFePO4 batteries and was wondering about alternator charge from a small 8HP Yamaha outboard engine. So in a small sailing boat you'll have a "large" Li batterie (150-200 Ah) and a small
Knowing the internal resistance of both the alternator and the battery is key to planing the setup. If the battery has a lower impedance, a buckboost combo can protect both. Best of all is an on dash selector where the operator can choose to limit to 80% of the capacity. Careful usage planning ahead of time will give you optimum longevity. Best to use 2 batteries for ultimate redundancy. For cold weather use a battery heating will lift life expectancy.
As many I guess, this video worried me a bit thinking I'll blow my 2 x 115A 18 year old alternators mounted on 2 Volvo Penta D4 engines. But then I kept on looking because I didn't like the more complex DC/DC chargers known to be heat producers with quite small amp output. And I found some very interresting stuff about this video such as the fact the test was made with a Citroen alternator. So I ended up thinking, what the heck, if my alternators blow, it'll just be time to change them anyway. I did the test with the following setup: 2 alternators feeding 2 Victron Argofet battery isolators with 3 outputs feeding my 3 battery banks: 1 bowthruster/winch Optima 5.5 battery - 2 port engine 5.5 Optima battery - 3 starboard engine & house battery (this one is a mix of 75Ah Optima 5.5 + 400 Ah LiFePO4). I've monitored carefully the current draw (meter + Victron App) and I've never seen more than a 120 Ah draw, even with the lithium fully discharged. I also checked the heat on the alternators and everything was normal. Actually, most of the time the charging curent is around 80Ah which should be ok for 2 x 115A alternators. This is my first year with this setup and so far it works like a charme. No anomaly seen and the Daly BMS as well as the Victron App have never reported any error. I will follow up this comment if a noticeable problem arises of course. Geraud in the Med area of France
there will be no alarm coming from both battery or Victron App, the point is mainly that the lifespan of the alternator is reduced as they work on a (much) higher temp.
Your comment about the 1500RPM test "the engine running at idle" is incorrect. Typical engine crank to alternator ratios vary from at least 2:1, more typically 3:1 to 4:1. I have not documented modern stuff very much, it is possible that some engines are a higher ratio yet. In my day, my 440 Plymouth was 4:1, meaning, that if the engine was spinning 6K RPM, the alternator was screaming at 24,000 RPM. I did fail a couple of them.
when you have a diesel engine idling on 750 rpm , the 2:1 makes that 1500 for the alternator right? , could also be 2200rpm but that's not that relevant here, the point is that an alternator needs much more (from 4000-5000) to be able to cool itself.
@@johannesboonstra6917My understanding is that is the alternator generates higher RPMs, it exceeds the ability of the fan to adequately cool it at well
@@johannesboonstra6917 so my understanding of what you are saying is that the alternator fan is designed to spin fast enough to cool the alternator at idle speeds. As demand on the alternator increases and the alternator spins faster, the fan spins faster. However, as the alternator approaches high or maximum RPMs the mechanical properties of the fan limit how much it can cool the alternator. Fan cooling ability to alternator temperature flattens out at high RPMs. In vehicles like cars this is less of a problem because the alternator is also cooled when the car is moving from air blowing into the engine compartment at 50 to 60 mph. However, if you do not have this additional cooling from the vehicle speed at high alternator RPMs the alternator will overheat, because it outstrips the ability of the fan on the alternator to cool the alternator. So alternator overheating at high RPMs is more of a problem on sail boat for example.
@@SailingWindGypsy The point is the efficiancy, this is around 50% which is fine for a short while ( lets say 10-20 min) , but if the alternator is on maximal output and the voltage of the battery isnt going up for lets say hours, the heat will destroy the alternator
2 things: 1, you did not simulate the engine compartment of the vehicle which typically has a radiator fan located very close to the alternator and blows air on the alternator helping with cooling. 2, as far as sudden shut down of the lithium charging which could damage the alternator, most vehicle engine scenarios include a lead acid battery in the charging loop which will absorb the output of the alternator when the lithium suddenly stops accepting a charge because the BMS shuts down charging.
What about boats that 1, don’t have a radiator fan and 2, have a dedicated alternator for service batteries? We have experience with tens of thousands of systems and know this can damage lithiums. We have made this video to try and help people. Please read the replies to other concerning questions in the comments below.
Very interesting. My tow vehicle is a 6.7 diesel and under the hood I have two 12v lead-acid batteries and in my trailer I have 3 x 12.8v 200ah LIFEPO4 batteries. So, from what you say, my alternator is safe as long as the crank pulley to alternator pulley is 4 to 1? I haven't towed my trailer since I installed these batteries so I am curious (anxious)!
Yeah but you are direct driving that alternator. Typically vehicle alternators are overdriven at least 3:1. Im not arguing against DC/DC converters, but your abusing that alternator to no end. The testing here is not realistic.
the test is done to show what the result is of charging a lithium battery. This is not real life testing as that would take too long, it's only a few minute clip. But the alternator in real life (even with 3:1 or such) will suffer and break down soon.
@@johannesboonstra6917 The alternator doesn't know what it's sending current to - lithium isn't special it's just a load on the alternator. It was underdriven and overloaded at the same time - failing and spectacular fashion to help sell DC to DCs. Your comment would hold water if Victron disclosed that in their video but they didn't. Leaving someone who knows nothing of alternators to draw the wrong conclusions. The moral of the story is don't overload an alternator - which is still one hundred percent possible even with a DC to DC. You actually have to monitor alternator output to know if you're overloading. How many actually do that? I do. It's easy and cheap with an Amazon hall sensor.
It's not at all that we did post this to sell more dcdc converters. The point is ( and many alternator and engine manufactures that we work close with have discovered) that alternators do fail on lithium banks as not protected. Lithium is not "just a load" ! Lithium has a an extreme low internal resistance and the character its voltage will not raise during charge until full. This means a typical alternator will send its maximal rotor current by the regulator as its designed foe lead batteries, This maximal rotor current will cause the alternator to generate current often above spec. Knowing the efficiency of a typical alternator is just around 50-60%, you know how immense amount heat is generated. This will happen at lead also but only for a limited period as then the voltage will raise after 10-30 min. Just imagine a 20kWh lithium bank on a 100A alternator, this would take 16 hours of power above spec from an alternator. This alternator will fail, perhaps not as fast as in the clip, but it will fail as we have seen with many many systems worldwide. If you dont trust this, please come by with your car and we will connect a large empty lithium battery to it so your car can charge this in a few hours on idle rpm. You claim nothing will happen, and of course in a few minutes this might be true, but for a reliable system there is no other way then to protect the alternator @@MyGoogleUA-cam
DC DC is the way to go. You know it, I know it, we all know it :) Especially when you are increasing the aH. I'm upgrading my diesel pusher from 450ah flooded to 920ah LifePO4. It would have been so easy to replace my BIM-225 with a Li BIM-225, but the idea of stressing the alternator with such a high load forced my hand. So I'm losing my AUX start function, but my alternator will have a long healthy life!
It is a pity you barely mention the issue of Li BMS shutting off the battery while charging. This will destroy the dynamo much faster than the overheating. How is the victron system coping with the BMS shut off?
@@ooigfgnnkhjjnc except in freezing temperatures. then the alt (at least a bosch) will regulate to 15 or 15.2V depending on temperature. because lead acid need higher voltage in the cold and lower voltage in hot environment. the freezing cold alternator is gonna over voltage kill a lithium bank IF the BMS isn't setup properly. otherwise the Li bank will kill the alt after some time. (and prolly your board electronics aswell with the spicy voltage spikes the alt puts out after a bms shuts down the Li battery on full throttle current. the alternator regulates to 100% field current so it keeps the desired voltage setpoint at designed current output. lets say 100A. but when the BMS detects over voltage from that freezing alternator at 15.2V it does a hard cut. and the alternator can't throttle back it's field current to like 15% for the board electronics draw of lets say 20A. now the voltege spikes over the (+ 80A output) field current surplus. this can easylie reach into the 50-70V and fry basically everything in your DC system. AC loads after an inverter will be fine. but the inverver itself is gone in smoke too. a (well engineered) DC-DC charger can avoid this directly by avoiding a BMS trip in the first place and as a second line of defence it can dump a voltage spike in its toroidal coil long enough for the alternator regulator to catch up with load demands.
@@casemodder89 In modern (still non-hybrid) cars, there is often a mild "energy recovery" - the alternator is set to charge only when braking or engine braking. In practice, instead of a constant 13.8V float voltage, when the car is braking, there's a "boost" voltage of 14.8V-15V depending on the temperature. This can very well trigger the BMS overvoltage protection.
@@szakeetm i'm well aware of that and it behaves like a freezing cold alternator but in short bursts while off-throttle. but just like the temperature gradient function the field current regulator a well designed DC-DC charger eats those mini spikes like nothing. it can even draw a lil less current from the alternator during coasting because Voltage×Amps=Power. higher voltage available => less current to be drawn for same power output into the Li battery bank. i'm using mostly 50 to 90A DC-DC chargers by votronic (VCC 1212-xx series) and avoid battery capacity below 2× charger current. so at least 100Ah per 50A charger. for winter use applications i size the battery to 4× charger current. because LiFePo degrades at positive temperatures as well if the current is to high for the cell temp. CATL has a nice chart regarding the current vers. temp. 0.5C is good down to 12°C IIRC. 2°C is max. 0.16C IIRC.
Yes, it limits the charging current to be max. 30A which does not load the alternator too much in case the (high capacity for example 200Ah) lithium battery is almost empty.
Is the low rpm effecting the diodes on the rectifier, or something else? The fix could be to increase the capacity of the diodes if this is what is smoked at low RPMs.
"Charging lithium batteries at low RPM (revolutions per minute) can cause the alternator to overheat, potentially leading to internal coil damage." For the 1500 RPM test "....note this is still above the typical speed of an engine running idle" This indicates a fundamentally flawed understanding of how alternators are driven in vehicles by these folks in the video. The alternator in this video was underdriven WAY below what it was designed for - no wonder it fried. Most alternators are going 3X (3:1) the speed of the engine RPM. What is the average engine idle speed? 800 RPM? Making the lowest alternator RPM of around 2400? The video shows an alternator running at 1500 rpm - so a 500 RPM engine idle? Why wasn't the Balmar tested at a super low RPM? I am sure Balmar wouldn't have been happy with you smoking one of their alternators when it was tested outside of it's design capabilities? I don't understand the comment about BMSs disconnecting the batteries when fully charged? Fully charged is 3.65V per cell - and by then it's constant voltage and current is just trickling into the batteries at that point. How would this harm the alternator if a load of a 50W or less was suddenly disconnected? I charged a 200ah LFP house bank for several years using a standard Victron Cyrix combiner with zero issues. I would see around 70a going to the house batteries. I would only use this when needed and recognized I couldn't full top the batteries so I stopped charging around 90% SOC. I also monitor the alternator's output. When I upgraded to 600ah I did have go with a DC to DC because without I was getting 120A to the house batteries with a 160A alternator at idle. I went with Sterling's new DC to DCs which I think is much better than what Victron is offering currently with their Orions and Buck Boosts. If you don't want to dive into the weeds on how this stuff works and don't want to actively control your house battery alternator charging like I am - get the Orion, get the Buck Boost, or some other DC to DC.
I totally agree with you here. Not a total test. Worth nothing that I have installed a lot of victron products and a couple balmar ones as a OEM and have no issues with the product, however this video is no good
Isn’t pulling 120 amps out of a 160 amp alternator risking damage, I’ve just completed a DC to DC (Renogy 50 amp) charger install for a 100 amp/hr deep cycle AGM house battery in the car and everything I read said make sure you’re not pulling more than about a third of your alternator’s output (110 amp smart alternator in my case)? I just added a 200 watt solar panel on the car roof which connects directly to the Renogy DC to DC charger. The battery is from Aldi and I couldn’t be happier, resting state is always 13 volts and a hundred bucks cheaper than a “rebranded” battery which comes from the same factory anyway.
3:1 is about right for most passenger cars and trucks - engines that run at high RPM, such as Sports cars, supercars, race cars, will have the crank pulley altered to lower the alternator speed to within manufacturer specifications when the engine is at high RPM. Larger deisel trucks will have a pulley ratio closer to 5:1, as the engine RPM is usually lower. What's also missing, is that the vast majority of engine management systems - ALL of the OEM ones and most of the aftermarket ones - now turn off the voltage feed to the feild terminal of the alternator when the engine speed drops below around 1200 rpm - this reduces fuel used at idle, removes issues with alternators overheating, and for passenger vehicles, reduces idle loads on the pulleys, making the engine idle smoother with less NVH transfered to the passengers.
@@teeanahera8949The majority of the 'smart' DC-DC chargers measure the incoming voltage on the connection from the cars main battery, and will not turn on their output to your secondary battery untill the main battery shows a voltage that indicates it is fully charged. This way the current being pulled from the alternator never exceeds the alternators limit specifications. You will probably have a small wire coming from the DC-DC that the instructions said 'could' be connected to an over-ride switch to disable that safety feature in special cases, but is best left disconnected for standard OEM alternators.
thankyou for your explanation that really helped me grasping this concept, although this video was just to show how a person need to buy their product nothing else
Having a normal starter battery fed by alternator and then leisure batteries connected with it to charge. Now why would I need to install dc dc charger if swapping those leisure batteries to lithium? Is it rather a booster then?
the point is that the alternator needs to be protected against overload, so therefore a DcDc converter, buck boost or smart alternator regulator must be incorperated in the system.
@@JohannesBoonstra-ol2nz Thanks for your great information and sorry to bother you again. So if no lead acid battery attached to the alternator but still want to capture the energy that the alternator can generate for your house batteries, is something like the Balmar alternator regulator sufficient?
@@johannesboonstra6917 thanks! I also ordered a balmar alternator regulator that can be used with lithium batteries. Most of the time we get enough energy throughout the day from solar, but if we motor the alternator tries charging the batteries for hours at full tilt. I understand now what you're saying about wearing out the alternator itself even if it's not overheating or shutting down suddenly! Seriously, you should do a UA-cam on this because you have given the best advice on alternator lithium battery charging I have read so far!
the biggest problem with alternator is that it sits in motor so ambient temp there 100C easy. And, yes, your alternators are typical light duty from small cars (70-90a), not designed for prolonged full current.
Takeaways for me personally: 1/ I need to track alternator temperature and 2/ I need to drive the field current (FR) appropriately, probably following charge state (BLK, ABS, FLT, OFF)
Look at the C rating for charging your battery. 0.5c charge would be a constant draw of 200amps. I would install a regulator or limiter similar to what's shown in the video. It's a pretty big alternator to supply 200+ amps.
You definitely need to limit the charging current to 60A - 90A max. to protect your alternator. 420 Ah is a high capacity battery and it is very willing to draw way more than 100A current from your alternator in case the battery is empty. You'll cook your alternator.
In the same way that risk is reduced with a correctly configured Orion DC/DC charger, can risk also be reduced with the use of a correctly configured Victron inverter? I want to use an inverter in my towing vehicle, connected to a MultiPlus charger installed in my trailer. If my alternator is 140A, can I put an 800W inverter without worrying about the alternator? I'm putting 48V LiFePO4 batteries in my trailer, and I was thinking about using the Orion 12/48 to charge via the alternator, but the Orion 12/48 is not a charger! So I thought about using an inverter and charging through the MultiPlus, which will be communicating with the battery, which is something that only the Orion XS does. Taking advantage of the fact that I will be converting to 220V, I would place the inverter in the towing vehicle, to facilitate the connection to the trailer, not needing the thick cables that a 12V connection would require. I thought about using the same 13-pin socket (I didn't find the voltage isolation data for it, nor if there would be any other problem with putting this connection to 220V in that socket, but I'm thinking there's no problem). Of course, instead of having losses in just one DC/DC converter, I would have losses (probably greater) in converting 12V to 220V in the inverter, and then losses in the MultiPlus charger. But I believe there would be less losses in the cables and connections, as it is 220V instead of 12V (therefore with a much lower current). And I think it would be worth it because it would be charging the batteries in a fully controlled way through the MultiPlus communicating with the battery (through Cerbo and using DVCC). Is there anything I'm not considering? Alerts and recommendations are welcome! If the idea is good and works for someone, enjoy it! I did a lot of research on the internet and found no information about this type of charging via the alternator, neither for nor against it...
The inverter of 800watt will be hardly a heavy load for the alternator so thats fine. A Orion to feed an inverter is not a good idea as this will be to "slow" voltage regulation wise to have the inverter supplied with enough energy
yes, if you would have a fan which is able to cool the alternator down it would be nice, problem is that because the efficiency of the alternator is so low, the amount of heat which you need to get rid of is the same power as what the alternator generates.
What’s the difference between an alternator charging a lithium battery at maximum capacity, versus running a victron inverter at the exact same amount of dc load? I’ve put together dc systems that routinely pull hundreds of amps from alternators to run electronics and rooftop air conditioners. I guess I just have a hard time believing a properly sized lithium bank and alternator setup will have an issue other than potentially not generating a high enough voltage to fully charge the lithium battery…
I don't understand very much out of it ;/ could you tell me what should I use between alternator and powerstation to prevent issues? like adjustable inventer? would be thankful for any info
I understand this this can be quite technical. Please contact the local dealer (found on the website) and discuss you system and needs. Surely they can explain this to you.
So the balmar is just a alternator with a DC-DC attached and some PLC to trim amps according to temps.. So a DC-DC connected to a alternator would do essentially the same
Thanx for this, i was thinking of buying me a 4lifepo cells (62ah) for a great price, using just a cheaper balancer.. maybe this ain't worth the risk of damaging my alternator 🤔?
This is what I'm wondering; why would I regulate down my amperage to 50 amps with a DC to DC converter when my alternator can produce much more? I always thought alternators were self-regulating.
Hello, I have a boat in which I am planning to use a 12V 300Ah - Cranking & Deep Cycle Lithium Battery (Dual Purpose) as my starting and house battery same time. Can you please advise if using an Orion XS 12/12-Volt 50 amp DC-DC Battery Charger directly from the alternator would be sufficient or if should I add any more devices to charge safely directly from my alternator into my Lifopo4 double-purpose battery? Thanks a lot
You alternator needs to "see" a battery most likely to work best, so if the lithium is your starter battery as well the DcDc converter cannot be used. perhaps adding a smart regulator is the better solution then ( this controls alternator temp as well)
It might be a bit more complex, but what I'm thinking here is a bit convoluted and a tad expensive. The solution I see is a DC to DC Solution that I doubt anyone has addressed: Use the Alternator to charge a Lead Acid Battery. Use the Lead Acid Battery to power an Inverter that powers a proper LiFePO4 Charger. Alternators, after all, were designed SPECIFICALLY to charge Lead Acid Batteries. Let them do their jobs.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 02:53 ⚠️ Charging lithium batteries at low RPM (revolutions per minute) can cause the alternator to overheat, potentially leading to internal coil damage. 03:22 🔥 The Balmar alternator includes a temperature probe and regulator that monitors alternator and battery temperatures. It automatically adjusts the output current to prevent overheating. 05:53 🚗 Charging lithium batteries with an alternator poses challenges because lithium batteries can draw high currents even at low alternator speeds, potentially causing overheating and alternator wear. 06:22 🛠️ Solutions to prevent alternator overheating when charging lithium batteries include using larger alternators, regulators with temperature sensors, or current limiters like Buck-Boost, BMS 12/200, or the Orion Tr Smart DC to DC Charger. 07:16 🔄 Disconnecting lithium batteries from the charging source once fully charged can damage the alternator regulator if not done properly, and Victron offers equipment to protect alternators and battery systems.
2:54 - Well, Duh,... This whole 'bench' test is silly, because more then half of the cooling air for an alternator is provided by the the forward motion of a car and the cooling fan in the Radiator moving air over the running gear when the car is at standstill. You compounded this error by running the Alternator at RPM that it will never see in daily use, as the drive pulley on a standard engine crankshaft is much bigger then the one on an alternator, precisely so the alternator always spins at high enough RPM to function properly. The majority of modern cars, at engine idle, the alternator is shut down by the Engine Management system by turning off the feed to the field charge terminal, so at the RPM you get the smoke, the Alternator should be spinning but not powering. Very disappointed in how badly this test was done.
3:23 - You never ran the Balmar Alternator at the lower RPM, this alone tells us that the 'test' was was not done to repeated scientific standards where every device is tested in identical manner, but instead was done specifically to cause Only the standard unit to 'fail'. The Victron products may be of high quality, but this video is disingenuine. It's a short step away from being a Marketing Dept Lie.
Correct, this is not a scientific test! There were no professors involved and most likely you are able to find many things in it that could be debated if that's you intention. It was never intended to be more than a way to show in a few minutes that charging lithium isn't straight forward and that it needs consideration. That doesnt mean its a lie but its there to prevent endusers of spending money on a lithium system and then face costly issues with the alternator. And believe me when I say that this clip alone showed many endusers what went wrong in their system and they learned from it. @@PiDsPagePrototypes
Ever measured the alternator in a summer traffic jam while charging a large lithium bank or even a machine room of a boat? @@PiDsPagePrototypes Could you please take the test on your own car and show the results honestly?
@@johannesboonstra6917 If the charging system is set up correctly, it won't be charging while you sit still in a traffic jam. As mentioned before, at idle the cars ECU will turn off the field activation voltage to save fuel and protect the alternator from overheating. The machine room of a boat should be well ventilated, both to stop build up of dangerous gases and vapours, and to keep the room cool. If it isn't, it won't matter what brand of electrical equipment is fitted, the results will be failures.
Hello, I was just wondering whether it would be possible to purchase this and drive the automobile alternator connected to a high-rpm, 220v AC motor. I have a 5kva MPPT inverter, but I don't want to use a solar panel. What do you think of it?
I am currently putting a system together using a Balmar mc -618 regulator, it is capable of adjusting field power to alternator using temperature input from the alternator along with other programable input data. Have you done any testing using Balmar's regulator with a standard OEM alternator instead of with a $1500 Balmar alternator?
An engine running at idle is about 700/800 rpm but the drive ratio to the alternator is at least 1:2. So an alterternator speed of 1500 is not greater than an engine at idle
We know, its also not saying the time to failure will be as in the clip, but in time there will be an alternator failure for sure as the temperature will be to high for coil/bearings ect.
A typical, high quality (Nippondenso, Delco Remy, Bosch) alternator should be able to run continuously at full output for hundreds of hours. I don't know why your test unit started smoking, but it should not have. Car & truck alternators are typically designed to operate in 105C or 125C air environment, not component temperatures, but the air that it uses for cooling. The cooler it operates the longer it will last, roughly 2x the life for every 10C reduction. As the speed increases the alternator can produce more current, so it has to work less hard, and component temperatures drop. mentioned by others, a 3:1 ratio of engine to alternator is common, so at highway speed, when my diesel is turning 1400 RPM, the alternator is turning over 4000 RPM. BTW, typically, an alternator reaches the highest component temperatures at around 3000 RPM when operating at full load.
My small 4cylinder van has a 160amp OEM alternator. My house battery will be 460AH Lithium. Can my van handle a 50amp DC-DC like the Victron Energy Victron Orion XS Smart 12/12 50A DC-DC Charger?
@@JohannesBoonstra-ol2nz A 50amp DC-DC will pull 60amps and the vehicle itself will be pulling another 30-45amps for a total load of 100 amps. This far exceeds the 30% duty cycle you suggest for an alternator. Please explain. If the Orion Charger has duty-cycle control or the alternator itself is temperature compensated then I would agree with you.
That is an awfully fat positive cable don't recall seeing too many of those on factory motor cars maybe on large vehicles with diesel engines busses, garbage truck, simi tractor, ect. Generally when you run into these kinds of problems it's some kind of modification. I like simplicity like the older vehicles limit current by wire size to the alternator. Use a length >1.5m of high temperature 8 gage wire and when there is a significant difference in voltage It will drop over the length of wire limiting the current. Wire size and length would have to be adjusted to accommodate the situation as in the size of the alternator and what you're attempting to achieve. Key words High temperature rated. This method properly fused and coupled with an appropriately sized relay closed by ignition on can alleviate any issues. A poor-mans current limiter per se. I guess the bottom line is if you're ignorant and you diy you better have deep pockets. The more you understand about what you are working with the less chance something unexpected will happen.
For a starter battery you might be right, but filling a huge battery bank isnt helped when a cable size is reduced. Then stil a dcdc converter or alternator regulator is the best option ( safe/efficient )
New inquiry need help with this question, I have a dual battery lithium 12v 135amh profile and also an alternator cap output at 250amp for Jeep Wrangler. I also have a dual battery relay isolator that can handle lithium batteries. Will I also need a Victron shunt battery protector and of DC2DC converter for this setup?
If your relay isolator does not *limit* the current, then yes it would be useful for you too. On the other hand 250A is good output and 135Ah not so high capacity, so, you may be on safe level with your present system (your lithium battery does not draw very high current from your alternator even when the battery is empty).
People use them in car audio and there have been people to use them on their vehicles for a while now and I haven't read of anybody having a problem with their alternator
Always wondered why high output alternators had 6 Awg wire now I see why they use the wire to limit the amount of current. Usually lead acid start batteries only need lot of current for short amount of time as they recharge time from an engine start is short. My Ram 2500 truck had duel alternators or 480 amps but wire is 6 gauge no way it could even come close to using all that current. More of a marketing scheme.
I must by chance have a really good alternator fitted as standard on my vw transporter i regularly idol charge and run my 700w inverter to charge up my lithium PowerStation i measured the positive coming off my starter battery onto my 400ah lead battery bank and when the inverter is running at full load i get 86A with an idol engine speed of 950rpm i must do this for around 2 hours continually 5 times a week i wonder why my alternator hasn't burnt up yet its also 12 years old I think is got a max output of 140A
@@johannesboonstra6917 I idle charge mostly so stationary and summer gets around 30c here I think what they are not accounting for here in this demonstration is the auxiliary pulley ratio I don’t think engine speed and alternator speed are mirrored
2:46 This is absolutely deceptive. Yes, that is less than typical engine idle speed, but you are not driving the alternator at a conventional ratio of 3:1.
Well this is a bloody eye opener. Wish i knew this before I went lithium. "You cant just use vsr you need to use dcdc charger, ooh but you cant use dcdc charger s they'll cook your alternator, you need a £700+ alternator if you want to do that" can someone please clarify. You can't just get a dcdc charger and wire it up like ALL THE WEBSITES SHOW? im actually a bit pxssed off here.
Perhaps the video is not clear , but to protect the alternator , you need to limit the current or it will overheat If you have a external regulator or dcdc converter you are fine If you just let the alternator charge full power over longer periods it may have a short lifespan
In car audio regular alternators are used to charge lithium battery banks with NO issues. We never let battery get low to 50% like on video. If battery were to get that low we charge it at low amperage rate with a charger NOT with alternator
If it has 50% efficiency and generates a thousand watts, doesn't that mean it dissipates 500 watts as heat? If it created a thousand watts of heat then it would be 0% efficient.
I am about to connect an extra wire from my alternator to my Victron non isolated DC/DC charger. With how much Newton Meter do I turn the bolt back on the alternator while securing the cable shoe to it? This video was very helpful and convinced me buy to buy the DC/DC charger!
@@JohannesBoonstra-ol2nz Thank you. Guess there is something limiting the charge to exactly around 50 amps on a 180 amp alternator which is definitely a good thing because correct me if I am wrong but I'd think the batteries would pull even more without that
ts possible to charge a lifepo4 battery directly with alternator. If you now what you do. if you now the parameter and specs of alternator at low rpm, if the max current is compatible with your battery and also the charging voltage. Victron produce an intelligent relais to do that. I have a 65A alternator. and 200ah lifepo4. During travel I have 20-30A of load for many utility like e-bike, fridge, evaporative conditioner etc etc. with a dc-dc of 30-40A I don't have any current to charge the battery. with a simple rele of 230A and 35mmq cable I charge 30A with 30A of loads. My alternator, a low rpm in poor cooling conditions (es at stoplight), don't can produce more of 20-25A, even in short circuit. its not depends from type of battery. lithium, lead, nichel...its depend from the delivery curve of the project of alternator
supertypical Bosch or magneti marelli 90s years.. work perfectly. why victron produce a reel to charge lifepo4 directly?? why master volt do the same? all alternator in the world have a curve of current teeth depend from rpm. But depend to the curve and to the reduction ratio of the crankshaft. Its totally possible charge lithium battery with direct alternator in total safety if you now what you do@@johannesboonstra6917
70amp citron alternator, no wonder it overheated, you wouldnt even use the car it comes from to use dual batteries. most dual battery cars have a 150amp alternator at a min. Redo the test with realistic conditions. ie air flow from a fan like on the radiator of the car and also wind flow from the car moving. also use lithium batteries with on board bms that regulates overcharge and heating issues. these test results are unrealistic to normal conditions. FYI yes it is best to use a DC-DC charger either way but lots of tests have shown it is not required and in some cases your lithium batteries can handle the direct input to lithium of 80amp like the test done by Mercedes.
It's not just cars , its also boats, there is less airflow there right? BMS with internal regulation is fine! as long as its being regulated, The point we are trying to make here is not that the battery can handle the current, of course it can. Its the alternator that with its 50% efficiency get far warmer then designed for and will have a short lifespan..
@@johannesboonstra6917 Yea but they were using a relatively weak alternator on a big battery bank. Which it was never designed for. The average single 12v battery bank is under 100ah for cars with 70amp alternators. 4x-6x more than standard. Then you have to consider they are mainly designed to charge LA batteries generally. If you got the capacity for a large battery bank, you have the capacity for a bigger alternator or proper charge controller.
@@JohannesBoonstra-ol2nz Sure, but the alternator is already there usually. Can't expect a moving vehicle to be efficient at using ICE for electricity. That is what ICE generators are for. Getting charge from the alternator is just a byproduct/benefit of needing it in the first place. It's not meant to be the main source when idling, considering it would take hours of running/idling to fill a large bank. Not efficient. But very cheap and easy way to get "free charge" if you are already using the engine. And if someone is putting in a larger alternator, it's usually not only to increase charging capacity/ability, but to be able to add more demanding electrical devices (lights, winches, etc. ) while the engine is running. Like think about it...
@@CowsGoMonkey not sure what you mean, but point what was made here was that the alternator need to be protected against overload/overheat , then a DCDC converter is one of the possible solutions
The bms will never shut off, as the max voltage of lithium higher than other batteries, the alternator will only charge lithium to 80 ish %. In a motorhome application, most have 1 starter and 2 leisure. Therefore hard to imagine 1 lithium more damaging than 2 leisure at low charge. Disinformation only damages the brand and its reputation.
The point of the clip is to warn of overloading the alternator, this is the result of extreme low internal resistance and is not related to the BMS or state of charge. Due to the low internal resistance of the battery the alternator is running at a far higher power then designed for often....thats the issue. We have seen many many situations that the alternator gave up on lithium. Of course if you choose to run the alternator directly to the lithium, thats up to you.
... why someone would use an alternator to charge a lithum battery? there are far better generator out there. And ... every one knows you need a battery charger
Pmax : Routside = Rinside. Battery resistance 28 mOhm, Generator resistance 58mOhm. Guess where energy will be dissipated. And yes you over unity generator people. Energy is always lost in energy transformation!
I am very sorry but I do not agree with this example. I am a big fan of Victron Energy and use lots of Victron equipment on lots of systems. I’m an electrical engineer with over 40 years experience in electrical systems both aviation and marine. I’m a ABYC member and advanced electrical advisor. Let’s look at some facts. 1. An alternator is used to provide power for not just charging a battery or batteries but to also supply all loads connected. This may mean an alternator is exposed to current that is equal to or higher than its output rating. Indeed in the old days alternators and dynamos were often accompanied with +/- Amp meters to show when the load was greater than the charge. In these cases alternators or dynamos did not burn out. In fact I have never in all those years come across an overloaded alternator, ever. 2. Where is the fan on that alternator? Internal? Maybe? But nothing like the fans normally fitted externally. 3. Bulmar, fab alternators, so are prestolite which having spoken to there technical department at their factory have agreed that their alternators at known to run at 140C. They also have no issues with running at max capacity. 4. Alternators have a max capacity which will be a figure somewhere below the actual capacity, but its capacity can not be physically exceeded because of the load or type of battery connected. Its max is its max and if its rated as a 100A model then ok maybe it can output 110A. But it’s still the max you will not get more even if you short circuited it. It is self regulating by its physical structure. 5. Even if some alternators struggle with running at max capacity and you fit lithium and want to provide the benefit of faster charging you will want an alternator to suit. But IT DOES NOT need to be a smart or multi stage charging alternator. It can be but it does not have to be. 6. Lithium batteries do not always have a lower internal resistance than LA. This is a fallacy and inaccurate. A large AGM battery or bank of batteries can have a lower internal resistance. That is fact. 7. Irrespective of chemistry a battery will draw current based on its size, level of charge and yes it’s internal resistance, which is proportional to its level of charge and size. Both Lithium and LA will stop charging when the internal resistance increases to a point no current flows. If either type is rated to be charged by a standard alternator it will charge and it will be safe left connected to that charge. If a battery manufacturer built batteries that failed or worse because they are being charged by the recommended voltage then they would be in court. But it seems that some can come up with unscientific theories to sell more equipment perhaps?
Hello Simon, the fact that alternators burn on large lithiums batteries sooner or later is not an opinion, It's something we have seen many times in real life....and then came with the advise to have a limiter/regulator or something else installed to protect the alternator. You mention resistance, the point is that a lithium battery does not go up in voltage during charging while a AGM or other lead battery does this immediately. Only when the battery gets near 100% this will happen. So a 10kWh lithium bank with a 100A alternator runs easily 7-9 hours on "overload" to get it full while doing this with AGM the max power is there for
@@JohannesBoonstra-ol2nz I agree that a large lithium battery can pull a large current over a long period of time. A so can I large load or a large LA. But if the case is that the system design is going to see this situation where the load or current is always or frequently be high and means the alternator is at max output then it makes sense to increase the size of the alternator or yes regulate the output. However it is not the case that 100% of the time there is a definite need for a multistage alternator or other devices including DC-DC converters should be used, which is sort of where the industry is going. Equally I would say not all alternators are the same and from past experience I have yet to see a burnt out alternator due to high output and that includes cases where regulators have failed and the voltage has gone high due to no regulation. My experience is mainly in the commercial boat sector and in temperate weather in UK. I am sure that in some circumstances such as poorly vented engine compartments and hot climates this may be an issue. But in all honesty the alternator used in the video is one that has what looks like a low level of ventilation in the form of a decent fan. This alternator may be typical on some yachts but it is not what I would normally be used to seeing. In my experience near all alternators including on yachts have an external fan. It is also important to accept that most fans need to rotate in the correct direction and that air is drawn from the back of the alternator and dissipated through the front, thus the heat is not directed at the regulator. There is always the risk that the wrong alternator is used on replacement, this I have seen. Another factor is the regulator voltage. It seems that in the USA regulators may regulate at higher voltages that re the norm than elsewhere. These voltages can be from what I’ve been informed as much as 14.6 volts or higher. In UK and on all engines I have worked on alternators are either 14.2 or 14.4 volts or double in 24V systems. Increasing voltage output would result in higher currents and perhaps put an alternator at higher risk of over temperature. These are all factors and my point is you do not always have to automatically apply a binary solution.
@@simonpembs internal fan are not typically worse then external I would say. Of course there will be solutions alternator wise in the future , but the majority of alternator out there are designed to refill a starter battery and feed the house load doing this. The point you made in getting a larger alternator doesnt work, as that one will get overheated as well, The lithium batterie will not throttle the alternator back by lifting voltage (as LA does) The large alternator does the charging with more curruent (so even more wear on the belt and most likely struggling engines when idling) . realize that an alternator of lets say 150A max, will do 170 or more on low voltage/lithium which means that it runs longer on max power then on LA , and beside this also 10-15% more power and at a lower voltage so that current is higher and even more heat is generated...thats the problem. Is there something like an alternator workshop in your area who happen to have an alternator test bench? try go there wit a 100A alternator and a half full 200Ah lithium batterie and see what the alternators starts doing. you might be surprised. What we did in the clip was to shown what will happen over time, not as fast as what was shown here as cabling and higher rpm might "help" the alternator, but the point is that there needs to be something installed to have it safely done with sufficient lifespan.
This test has nothing to do with the type of battery charged and more running the alternator at max output at low RPM. Lower RPM than it would see in a car by the way. Any load that pulls max current on the alternator at these low RPMs is going to heat it up. This is such a bogus test on so many levels. Put a regulator between the alternator and battery of 20 amps or so and it would run all day long. Alternators weren't designed to run at max output 100% of the time.
You've got the speed of the driver with the wrong size polly. The driver running at 1500 RPM on an automobile engine has a much larger pulley driving the same size pulley on an alternator making the alternator spin faster than the engine. I might have guessed that an engineer would not quite realize that never having actually turned a wrench on a car does not qualify you to be an engineer for automotive uses or for figuring out how an alternator supposed to work. The rest of your demonstration is pretty good, but you're way low on the speed of the alternator by measuring the speed of the motor that's driving it. Why don't you enter Spurs lead acid batteries of some type or design within the circuit so that they can help regulate the power draw?
Really? having a alternator with a 50% efficiency running idle on a half empty lithium battery for a while doesnt burn the alternator? If you want we could repeat the test on your car, we take a lithium and connect its with jumper cables to your alternator and let it run for a while. We let you do the temp reading then.
We sure do , we have over 50 years experience and are very technically driven. The advice given here is to help you have a long lifespan of your alternator , of course you are free not to take advice given to you
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Ok, so the actual perception is: 3000 alternator rpm if created from a 1000rpm engine with general overdrive of ratio 3 gives healthy 40ish degrees and 78.9 Amps off of a 70a Citroen Alternator. Good.
Real verdict of this video without the voice is that a fully loaded alternator should not be operated below 1000 engine rpm (=do not 100% load in idle, which is not hard to understand) but is very fine when driving (lets say approx. 2000 engine rpm).
Regarding Lithium everybody should know that a lead acid battery as a buffer to avoid load off voltages and then DCDC off to a Lithium with current limiting to a current value/number below (80%) the alternator limit is a good ballpark.
The moral of the video is that due to the lithium battery the voltage during charge will not go up until the battery is charged and this causes the alternator to get overworked. 3000rpm is still low for an alternator to be cooled well! So over time bearings/coils ect will suffer and fail. the ballpark for a dcdc converter to limit the output would be about 50%
From things I have saw dcdc as you mention is way to go. I want to build a lawnmower type engine to alt setup. And after watching this stuff dc to dc is looking more inline. I think @victronenergy should revisit this and produce a new video with new offerings or products out there.
@johannesboonstra6917 Alternators peak at 1800 rpm and rely on the vehicle to be moving for cooling 😂
@@ryanmckee3102 That conflates engine RPM and alternator RPM.
@@ryanmckee3102 and all alternators are in vehicles and beside this, there never in a sunny traffic jam ? 🤣.
In an internal combustion engine situation, the alternator typically runs at 3 times crank speed. So 1500 crankshaft rpm = 4500 alternator rpm = way out of danger zone.
Your test rig seemed to run alternator rpm = motor rpm = overheat problem
An engine is often at idle or just above...At idle this is 800x3 is 2400rpm, which is quite nicely in the danger zone. Even on 4500 rpm with an output at 110-120% of the design power is problematic as well.
@@johannesboonstra6917 An IC engine does not operate at constant rpm. Most are now automatic, so there is no direct correlation between rpm and gear ratio.
On acceleration, engine rpm will flare to 2000-2500 and hold there. That's 6000-7500 alternator rpm. At urban cruise speed, torque converter lock-up does not occur, and transmission does not shift into 1:1 drive ratio or above, keeping engine rpm high. On cold start up, powertrain management inhibits higher gear ratios to enhance driveability and reduce warm-up time. Idle speed is also increased during engine warm-up
In open road driving, engine rpm is easily 2000rpm until warmed up
A 50Ah battery that requires 10Ah to recharge (ie is 20% depleted), will only take 6 minutes to recharge @ 100A. The car is still warming up after 6 minutes
The maths does not support your position
;-) , I did a few hundred installs so I do know how an alternator works, thank you! . But your theory is a bit off I am afraid. Of course when the battery is about full you dont need to worry, but that's quite rare on a household battery. And we not only talking about a 50Ah battery in a small truck, We are talking about serious lithium systems up to a few hundred Ah. These will not raise the battery voltage until full so this means the alternator will go more the full throttle. This because the regulator steers max current to the rotor until the voltage on the battery does go up ( THATS the major difference with a lead battery here) often 110-120%. When the alternator 100A a quite large part goes into the engine when its a little bit modern one and its connected system itself, so perhaps there is 40-60A to charge the lithium. When charging the battery with an alternator in a boat machine room for example, the average rpm is just above idle. So then the rpm is way below the optimal cooling speed and the output is far over 100%. This means simple that for a 200Ah lithium the alternator needs to work max for a couple of hours. The heat is generates is 50% of the output power , so that's immense. Believe it or not, but this will make sure the lifespan is pretty short. I have given others also this advise when you want to prove I am wrong, Take an empty 200Ah ithium battery and use the jumper cord on you car , just let the motor idle and see whats happening (only when you still have warranty on the car). to add to this, if you feel you dont want to protect the alternator, that's fine with me of course, we just want to warn as we have seen many alternators fail that way... @@Goodkiwibloke
@@johannesboonstra6917 in any situation where rpm is limited to low rpm range (like motor yacht or diesel), try using a higher overdrive pulley set. This will raise the alternator rpm for the same crankshaft rpm. Instead of a 3:1 step up in a petrol application, try a 5:1 or 6:1 step up. This may require an additional pulley sheeve, but also allows for the addition of a second alternator. 800 crank rpm x 5 = 4000 alternator rpm (or 4800 alternator rpm if 6:1).
Also, consider fitting a temperature sensing switch that disconnects the lithium charging contactor if alternator temperature rises too high. It's an easy way to avoid heat failure, like the "thermal fuse" fitted to many power supply transformers - it interrupts the output until the temperature falls to a safe level
FYI I have built our house battery to 800Ah 48V lithium (repurposed EV NMC cells), charged by solar. I am an automotive sparky with 40 years experience
@@Goodkiwibloke For your information this most likely targeting sail boats and yes they do run at constant speeds for long periods.
Smart external regulators, like the ElectroMaax Pro-X, or Balmar, allow you to control the alternator output at various rpm’s , and they also monitor current flow and temperature to optimize charging and protect the alternator. ElectroMaax also has alternators with separated rectifiers to minimize heat generation in the alternator.
yes, that's also an option , but often require expensive work to the alternator to have the regulator installed
One of many first things i done was swapped my 85amp alternator to a 145amp alternator that was for the same make of Van with Power/heated seats option And at idle (650Rpm) it is rated to 100amps. Other upgrades was thicker copper wire And extra ground points I run a total of 400amps Life4po And 400 watt solar panel And a shore power 115volt outlet And a few Victron products to keep it all together running smooth ...4 years now And no issues
In a vehicle that could be , as there is cooling from outside. When sitting for longer periods in high ambient with high loads on, this could rapidly change though. also with thick cables and extra ground points. It's a matter of cooling power and efficiency. At boats it's even more relevant to consider this.
But what amps go to the starter battery get to. I put a 140 wat alt. In my van and the charging was over 15 which could heat my 12 v system.
@@JoFoxynHomer If your van is drawing say 70amps to run And your alt is 140 Your battery will only take 70a from the 140am If you are getting 15v from a 12v system 14 volts is a typical charging voltage. (14.4 is perfect) If you're running 15+ then you most likely have a voltage regulator issue and your battery is being overcharged. with no real information And many factors i could not give you a pin point reason as you left out why you need a 140 alt or which van If you upgraded more than the alt And if you are using other items ...2nd battery, Type, size, etc etc Do your home work before making upgrades
@@JoFoxynHomer your starter battery is only needed to start the engine, thats done with 0,2Ah only as it's so short. The alternator feeds this right back in and then powers the energy for the engine systems and in-car systems.
This is spot on for sailing boat install. I am converting to LiFePO4 batteries and was wondering about alternator charge from a small 8HP Yamaha outboard engine. So in a small sailing boat you'll have a "large" Li batterie (150-200 Ah) and a small
Or a small hundred watt solar panel and a $15 charge controller.
Knowing the internal resistance of both the alternator and the battery is key to planing the setup. If the battery has a lower impedance, a buckboost combo can protect both. Best of all is an on dash selector where the operator can choose to limit to 80% of the capacity. Careful usage planning ahead of time will give you optimum longevity. Best to use 2 batteries for ultimate redundancy. For cold weather use a battery heating will lift life expectancy.
As many I guess, this video worried me a bit thinking I'll blow my 2 x 115A 18 year old alternators mounted on 2 Volvo Penta D4 engines. But then I kept on looking because I didn't like the more complex DC/DC chargers known to be heat producers with quite small amp output. And I found some very interresting stuff about this video such as the fact the test was made with a Citroen alternator. So I ended up thinking, what the heck, if my alternators blow, it'll just be time to change them anyway. I did the test with the following setup: 2 alternators feeding 2 Victron Argofet battery isolators with 3 outputs feeding my 3 battery banks: 1 bowthruster/winch Optima 5.5 battery - 2 port engine 5.5 Optima battery - 3 starboard engine & house battery (this one is a mix of 75Ah Optima 5.5 + 400 Ah LiFePO4). I've monitored carefully the current draw (meter + Victron App) and I've never seen more than a 120 Ah draw, even with the lithium fully discharged. I also checked the heat on the alternators and everything was normal. Actually, most of the time the charging curent is around 80Ah which should be ok for 2 x 115A alternators. This is my first year with this setup and so far it works like a charme. No anomaly seen and the Daly BMS as well as the Victron App have never reported any error. I will follow up this comment if a noticeable problem arises of course.
Geraud in the Med area of France
there will be no alarm coming from both battery or Victron App, the point is mainly that the lifespan of the alternator is reduced as they work on a (much) higher temp.
Your comment about the 1500RPM test "the engine running at idle" is incorrect. Typical engine crank to alternator ratios vary from at least 2:1, more typically 3:1 to 4:1. I have not documented modern stuff very much, it is possible that some engines are a higher ratio yet. In my day, my 440 Plymouth was 4:1, meaning, that if the engine was spinning 6K RPM, the alternator was screaming at 24,000 RPM. I did fail a couple of them.
when you have a diesel engine idling on 750 rpm , the 2:1 makes that 1500 for the alternator right? , could also be 2200rpm but that's not that relevant here, the point is that an alternator needs much more (from 4000-5000) to be able to cool itself.
@@johannesboonstra6917My understanding is that is the alternator generates higher RPMs, it exceeds the ability of the fan to adequately cool it at well
@@johannesboonstra6917 so my understanding of what you are saying is that the alternator fan is designed to spin fast enough to cool the alternator at idle speeds. As demand on the alternator increases and the alternator spins faster, the fan spins faster. However, as the alternator approaches high or maximum RPMs the mechanical properties of the fan limit how much it can cool the alternator. Fan cooling ability to alternator temperature flattens out at high RPMs. In vehicles like cars this is less of a problem because the alternator is also cooled when the car is moving from air blowing into the engine compartment at 50 to 60 mph. However, if you do not have this additional cooling from the vehicle speed at high alternator RPMs the alternator will overheat, because it outstrips the ability of the fan on the alternator to cool the alternator. So alternator overheating at high RPMs is more of a problem on sail boat for example.
@@SailingWindGypsy well only if the voltage of the battery raises enough, under "full" load or even higher then this the heat is too much often
@@SailingWindGypsy The point is the efficiancy, this is around 50% which is fine for a short while ( lets say 10-20 min) , but if the alternator is on maximal output and the voltage of the battery isnt going up for lets say hours, the heat will destroy the alternator
2 things: 1, you did not simulate the engine compartment of the vehicle which typically has a radiator fan located very close to the alternator and blows air on the alternator helping with cooling. 2, as far as sudden shut down of the lithium charging which could damage the alternator, most vehicle engine scenarios include a lead acid battery in the charging loop which will absorb the output of the alternator when the lithium suddenly stops accepting a charge because the BMS shuts down charging.
What about boats that 1, don’t have a radiator fan and 2, have a dedicated alternator for service batteries?
We have experience with tens of thousands of systems and know this can damage lithiums. We have made this video to try and help people. Please read the replies to other concerning questions in the comments below.
Very interesting. My tow vehicle is a 6.7 diesel and under the hood I have two 12v lead-acid batteries and in my trailer I have 3 x 12.8v 200ah LIFEPO4 batteries. So, from what you say, my alternator is safe as long as the crank pulley to alternator pulley is 4 to 1? I haven't towed my trailer since I installed these batteries so I am curious (anxious)!
I know that voice well. Hope you and the dog are well. Bob in Nevada
Thanks for watching Bob! Molly says woof!
Yeah but you are direct driving that alternator. Typically vehicle alternators are overdriven at least 3:1. Im not arguing against DC/DC converters, but your abusing that alternator to no end. The testing here is not realistic.
the test is done to show what the result is of charging a lithium battery. This is not real life testing as that would take too long, it's only a few minute clip. But the alternator in real life (even with 3:1 or such) will suffer and break down soon.
@@johannesboonstra6917
The alternator doesn't know what it's sending current to - lithium isn't special it's just a load on the alternator.
It was underdriven and overloaded at the same time - failing and spectacular fashion to help sell DC to DCs. Your comment would hold water if Victron disclosed that in their video but they didn't. Leaving someone who knows nothing of alternators to draw the wrong conclusions.
The moral of the story is don't overload an alternator - which is still one hundred percent possible even with a DC to DC. You actually have to monitor alternator output to know if you're overloading. How many actually do that?
I do. It's easy and cheap with an Amazon hall sensor.
It's not at all that we did post this to sell more dcdc converters. The point is ( and many alternator and engine manufactures that we work close with have discovered) that alternators do fail on lithium banks as not protected. Lithium is not "just a load" ! Lithium has a an extreme low internal resistance and the character its voltage will not raise during charge until full. This means a typical alternator will send its maximal rotor current by the regulator as its designed foe lead batteries, This maximal rotor current will cause the alternator to generate current often above spec. Knowing the efficiency of a typical alternator is just around 50-60%, you know how immense amount heat is generated. This will happen at lead also but only for a limited period as then the voltage will raise after 10-30 min. Just imagine a 20kWh lithium bank on a 100A alternator, this would take 16 hours of power above spec from an alternator. This alternator will fail, perhaps not as fast as in the clip, but it will fail as we have seen with many many systems worldwide. If you dont trust this, please come by with your car and we will connect a large empty lithium battery to it so your car can charge this in a few hours on idle rpm. You claim nothing will happen, and of course in a few minutes this might be true, but for a reliable system there is no other way then to protect the alternator @@MyGoogleUA-cam
@@johannesboonstra6917
I sincerely appreciate your reply - I'll get back to you in a few days.
@@johannesboonstra6917 Wouldn't a more sophisticated AVR with current (or power) limiting be the obvious solution?
I'm charging my AGM house battery using a solenoid . Can I switch to a Lithium Battery using the same solenoid ?
preferably not, a dcdc converter wil be best most likely in your case
Batteries in parallel should be the same voltage and chemistry
This explained a few things. Would have been nice to see the details on how the orion works to protect alternator and system in more detail.
I installed an Orion 1212 30 to charge a 230A lithium. Do you think it will be safe for my truck alternator?
It's safe for sure. Even with two Orions and 60A it would still be safe.
What about protecting the alternator from voltage spikes resulting from BMS shutdowns, or heavy loads disconnecting?
The alternator should preferably have its own (starter) battery to limit spikes and to be able to run without a battery current
We installed an $80 balmar alternator protection device.
DC DC is the way to go. You know it, I know it, we all know it :) Especially when you are increasing the aH. I'm upgrading my diesel pusher from 450ah flooded to 920ah LifePO4. It would have been so easy to replace my BIM-225 with a Li BIM-225, but the idea of stressing the alternator with such a high load forced my hand. So I'm losing my AUX start function, but my alternator will have a long healthy life!
It is a pity you barely mention the issue of Li BMS shutting off the battery while charging. This will destroy the dynamo much faster than the overheating. How is the victron system coping with the BMS shut off?
Great question, wish they would answer this one .
@@keesras763 The voltage is set for lead acid. So it never sees 14.6 volts.
@@ooigfgnnkhjjnc except in freezing temperatures. then the alt (at least a bosch) will regulate to 15 or 15.2V depending on temperature. because lead acid need higher voltage in the cold and lower voltage in hot environment.
the freezing cold alternator is gonna over voltage kill a lithium bank IF the BMS isn't setup properly. otherwise the Li bank will kill the alt after some time. (and prolly your board electronics aswell with the spicy voltage spikes the alt puts out after a bms shuts down the Li battery on full throttle current.
the alternator regulates to 100% field current so it keeps the desired voltage setpoint at designed current output. lets say 100A. but when the BMS detects over voltage from that freezing alternator at 15.2V it does a hard cut. and the alternator can't throttle back it's field current to like 15% for the board electronics draw of lets say 20A.
now the voltege spikes over the (+ 80A output) field current surplus.
this can easylie reach into the 50-70V and fry basically everything in your DC system.
AC loads after an inverter will be fine. but the inverver itself is gone in smoke too.
a (well engineered) DC-DC charger can avoid this directly by avoiding a BMS trip in the first place and as a second line of defence it can dump a voltage spike in its toroidal coil long enough for the alternator regulator to catch up with load demands.
@@casemodder89 In modern (still non-hybrid) cars, there is often a mild "energy recovery" - the alternator is set to charge only when braking or engine braking. In practice, instead of a constant 13.8V float voltage, when the car is braking, there's a "boost" voltage of 14.8V-15V depending on the temperature. This can very well trigger the BMS overvoltage protection.
@@szakeetm i'm well aware of that and it behaves like a freezing cold alternator but in short bursts while off-throttle. but just like the temperature gradient function the field current regulator a well designed DC-DC charger eats those mini spikes like nothing. it can even draw a lil less current from the alternator during coasting because Voltage×Amps=Power. higher voltage available => less current to be drawn for same power output into the Li battery bank.
i'm using mostly 50 to 90A DC-DC chargers by votronic (VCC 1212-xx series) and avoid battery capacity below 2× charger current. so at least 100Ah per 50A charger.
for winter use applications i size the battery to 4× charger current. because LiFePo degrades at positive temperatures as well if the current is to high for the cell temp.
CATL has a nice chart regarding the current vers. temp. 0.5C is good down to 12°C IIRC. 2°C is max. 0.16C IIRC.
Maravilhoso
Meu sonho ter um aparelho desses
Does the Orion dc to dc charger prevent overheating of the alternator ? Does it not also need a temperature sensor on the alternator ?
Yes, it limits the charging current to be max. 30A which does not load the alternator too much in case the (high capacity for example 200Ah) lithium battery is almost empty.
Is the low rpm effecting the diodes on the rectifier, or something else? The fix could be to increase the capacity of the diodes if this is what is smoked at low RPMs.
"Charging lithium batteries at low RPM (revolutions per minute) can cause the alternator to overheat, potentially leading to internal coil damage." For the 1500 RPM test "....note this is still above the typical speed of an engine running idle" This indicates a fundamentally flawed understanding of how alternators are driven in vehicles by these folks in the video.
The alternator in this video was underdriven WAY below what it was designed for - no wonder it fried. Most alternators are going 3X (3:1) the speed of the engine RPM. What is the average engine idle speed? 800 RPM? Making the lowest alternator RPM of around 2400? The video shows an alternator running at 1500 rpm - so a 500 RPM engine idle?
Why wasn't the Balmar tested at a super low RPM? I am sure Balmar wouldn't have been happy with you smoking one of their alternators when it was tested outside of it's design capabilities?
I don't understand the comment about BMSs disconnecting the batteries when fully charged? Fully charged is 3.65V per cell - and by then it's constant voltage and current is just trickling into the batteries at that point. How would this harm the alternator if a load of a 50W or less was suddenly disconnected?
I charged a 200ah LFP house bank for several years using a standard Victron Cyrix combiner with zero issues. I would see around 70a going to the house batteries. I would only use this when needed and recognized I couldn't full top the batteries so I stopped charging around 90% SOC. I also monitor the alternator's output. When I upgraded to 600ah I did have go with a DC to DC because without I was getting 120A to the house batteries with a 160A alternator at idle. I went with Sterling's new DC to DCs which I think is much better than what Victron is offering currently with their Orions and Buck Boosts.
If you don't want to dive into the weeds on how this stuff works and don't want to actively control your house battery alternator charging like I am - get the Orion, get the Buck Boost, or some other DC to DC.
I totally agree with you here. Not a total test.
Worth nothing that I have installed a lot of victron products and a couple balmar ones as a OEM and have no issues with the product, however this video is no good
Isn’t pulling 120 amps out of a 160 amp alternator risking damage, I’ve just completed a DC to DC (Renogy 50 amp) charger install for a 100 amp/hr deep cycle AGM house battery in the car and everything I read said make sure you’re not pulling more than about a third of your alternator’s output (110 amp smart alternator in my case)? I just added a 200 watt solar panel on the car roof which connects directly to the Renogy DC to DC charger. The battery is from Aldi and I couldn’t be happier, resting state is always 13 volts and a hundred bucks cheaper than a “rebranded” battery which comes from the same factory anyway.
3:1 is about right for most passenger cars and trucks - engines that run at high RPM, such as Sports cars, supercars, race cars, will have the crank pulley altered to lower the alternator speed to within manufacturer specifications when the engine is at high RPM. Larger deisel trucks will have a pulley ratio closer to 5:1, as the engine RPM is usually lower.
What's also missing, is that the vast majority of engine management systems - ALL of the OEM ones and most of the aftermarket ones - now turn off the voltage feed to the feild terminal of the alternator when the engine speed drops below around 1200 rpm - this reduces fuel used at idle, removes issues with alternators overheating, and for passenger vehicles, reduces idle loads on the pulleys, making the engine idle smoother with less NVH transfered to the passengers.
@@teeanahera8949The majority of the 'smart' DC-DC chargers measure the incoming voltage on the connection from the cars main battery, and will not turn on their output to your secondary battery untill the main battery shows a voltage that indicates it is fully charged. This way the current being pulled from the alternator never exceeds the alternators limit specifications. You will probably have a small wire coming from the DC-DC that the instructions said 'could' be connected to an over-ride switch to disable that safety feature in special cases, but is best left disconnected for standard OEM alternators.
thankyou for your explanation that really helped me grasping this concept, although this video was just to show how a person need to buy their product nothing else
What if you are pulling from the car battery? And add a relay that only allows to pull from battery once car battery reaches optimal charge
I'm gonna design and build my own. Nobody seems to have the simple idea of a dump load.
You mean to address high voltage scenario?
I don't think so, you should only need to pull back on field current.
Having a normal starter battery fed by alternator and then leisure batteries connected with it to charge. Now why would I need to install dc dc charger if swapping those leisure batteries to lithium? Is it rather a booster then?
the point is that the alternator needs to be protected against overload, so therefore a DcDc converter, buck boost or smart alternator regulator must be incorperated in the system.
@@JohannesBoonstra-ol2nz Thanks for your great information and sorry to bother you again. So if no lead acid battery attached to the alternator but still want to capture the energy that the alternator can generate for your house batteries, is something like the Balmar alternator regulator sufficient?
@@SailingWindGypsy yes if that alternator is connected such that charging can be stopped by the BMS , thats a good solution then.
@@johannesboonstra6917 thanks! I also ordered a balmar alternator regulator that can be used with lithium batteries. Most of the time we get enough energy throughout the day from solar, but if we motor the alternator tries charging the batteries for hours at full tilt. I understand now what you're saying about wearing out the alternator itself even if it's not overheating or shutting down suddenly! Seriously, you should do a UA-cam on this because you have given the best advice on alternator lithium battery charging I have read so far!
@@SailingWindGypsy yes, could be an idea. I will give it a thought
the biggest problem with alternator is that it sits in motor so ambient temp there 100C easy.
And, yes, your alternators are typical light duty from small cars (70-90a), not designed for prolonged full current.
Takeaways for me personally: 1/ I need to track alternator temperature and 2/ I need to drive the field current (FR) appropriately, probably following charge state (BLK, ABS, FLT, OFF)
good explanation
I have one question can you explain I have 420 amp battery then how many amp alternator need to install that vehicle
Look at the C rating for charging your battery. 0.5c charge would be a constant draw of 200amps.
I would install a regulator or limiter similar to what's shown in the video. It's a pretty big alternator to supply 200+ amps.
You definitely need to limit the charging current to 60A - 90A max. to protect your alternator. 420 Ah is a high capacity battery and it is very willing to draw way more than 100A current from your alternator in case the battery is empty. You'll cook your alternator.
In the same way that risk is reduced with a correctly configured Orion DC/DC charger, can risk also be reduced with the use of a correctly configured Victron inverter? I want to use an inverter in my towing vehicle, connected to a MultiPlus charger installed in my trailer. If my alternator is 140A, can I put an 800W inverter without worrying about the alternator? I'm putting 48V LiFePO4 batteries in my trailer, and I was thinking about using the Orion 12/48 to charge via the alternator, but the Orion 12/48 is not a charger! So I thought about using an inverter and charging through the MultiPlus, which will be communicating with the battery, which is something that only the Orion XS does. Taking advantage of the fact that I will be converting to 220V, I would place the inverter in the towing vehicle, to facilitate the connection to the trailer, not needing the thick cables that a 12V connection would require. I thought about using the same 13-pin socket (I didn't find the voltage isolation data for it, nor if there would be any other problem with putting this connection to 220V in that socket, but I'm thinking there's no problem). Of course, instead of having losses in just one DC/DC converter, I would have losses (probably greater) in converting 12V to 220V in the inverter, and then losses in the MultiPlus charger. But I believe there would be less losses in the cables and connections, as it is 220V instead of 12V (therefore with a much lower current). And I think it would be worth it because it would be charging the batteries in a fully controlled way through the MultiPlus communicating with the battery (through Cerbo and using DVCC). Is there anything I'm not considering? Alerts and recommendations are welcome! If the idea is good and works for someone, enjoy it! I did a lot of research on the internet and found no information about this type of charging via the alternator, neither for nor against it...
The inverter of 800watt will be hardly a heavy load for the alternator so thats fine. A Orion to feed an inverter is not a good idea as this will be to "slow" voltage regulation wise to have the inverter supplied with enough energy
Wondering how it would look if you set up a fan on the alternator…
yes, if you would have a fan which is able to cool the alternator down it would be nice, problem is that because the efficiency of the alternator is so low, the amount of heat which you need to get rid of is the same power as what the alternator generates.
What’s the difference between an alternator charging a lithium battery at maximum capacity, versus running a victron inverter at the exact same amount of dc load? I’ve put together dc systems that routinely pull hundreds of amps from alternators to run electronics and rooftop air conditioners. I guess I just have a hard time believing a properly sized lithium bank and alternator setup will have an issue other than potentially not generating a high enough voltage to fully charge the lithium battery…
I don't understand very much out of it ;/ could you tell me what should I use between alternator and powerstation to prevent issues? like adjustable inventer? would be thankful for any info
I understand this this can be quite technical. Please contact the local dealer (found on the website) and discuss you system and needs. Surely they can explain this to you.
So the balmar is just a alternator with a DC-DC attached and some PLC to trim amps according to temps..
So a DC-DC connected to a alternator would do essentially the same
I'd suggest it simply modulates rotor field current
Thanx for this, i was thinking of buying me a 4lifepo cells (62ah) for a great price, using just a cheaper balancer.. maybe this ain't worth the risk of damaging my alternator 🤔?
Try to be careful buying for a "great price" , might be a reason for that great price. A balancer is in any case also needed by the way
@@JohannesBoonstra-ol2nz i WAS talking about balancer, pay attention
@@paveljelinek772 pay attention? Please formulate the question properly and the answers will be clear as well.
@@JohannesBoonstra-ol2nz maan what's wrong with you i did not put any question
@@paveljelinek772 I thought the sentence with a ? is a question....". maybe this ain't worth the risk of damaging my alternator ?"
I have a 220amp alternator. I think it will hold just fine.
This is what I'm wondering; why would I regulate down my amperage to 50 amps with a DC to DC converter when my alternator can produce much more? I always thought alternators were self-regulating.
Howdy.
Good info of the basics.
Regards.
What about using an external fan to hold air into the alternator
Tha alternator does have an internal fan , but due to the 50% efficiency the heat is not easily to be lowered by a fan.
Hello, I have a boat in which I am planning to use a 12V 300Ah - Cranking & Deep Cycle Lithium Battery (Dual Purpose) as my starting and house battery same time. Can you please advise if using an Orion XS 12/12-Volt 50 amp DC-DC Battery Charger directly from the alternator would be sufficient or if should I add any more devices to charge safely directly from my alternator into my Lifopo4 double-purpose battery? Thanks a lot
You alternator needs to "see" a battery most likely to work best, so if the lithium is your starter battery as well the DcDc converter cannot be used. perhaps adding a smart regulator is the better solution then ( this controls alternator temp as well)
@@JohannesBoonstra-ol2nz thanks for the advice!
It might be a bit more complex, but what I'm thinking here is a bit convoluted and a tad expensive. The solution I see is a DC to DC Solution that I doubt anyone has addressed:
Use the Alternator to charge a Lead Acid Battery. Use the Lead Acid Battery to power an Inverter that powers a proper LiFePO4 Charger.
Alternators, after all, were designed SPECIFICALLY to charge Lead Acid Batteries.
Let them do their jobs.
could be done, but then there would also be quite some losses ( and a hughe investment I am afraid )
Salut! unde este atelierul victron?
But using a Pecron 500w car charger you dont have to worry about the alternator?
thats not a product between Alternator and lithium bank, so no.
@@JohannesBoonstra-ol2nz Does Victron have similar product to the Pecron500w Car charger? Do they have 900w versions?
@@trevorbelmont4633 I am afraid I dont know any of them , please contact a dealer and have them help you on this.
Alternators are typically run faster than your tests.
yes, but the effect overall is the same, We felt that if the test was 3 hours on a high RPM there wouldn't be many people looking at it.
I’m adding some lotion batteries for the back of box truck can I mix a regular battery from my vehicle with a relay to charge my rear lithium ?
My alternator is right behind my radiator fan. So even at idle has heavy air flow. I wonder if I can safely charge lithium.
depends on the load on the alternator. if you want to be safe...
monitor the temperature of the alternator with a thermistor or thermocouple.
if starter battery is charging and there is another agm battery parallel, does it boil starter battery
AGM in parallel with the Lithium? Thats not how you should use lithium, but then also this is not protecting the alternator
mmm shouldnt the pulley on the electric motor be ALOT bigger as in a car ?
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
02:53 ⚠️ Charging lithium batteries at low RPM (revolutions per minute) can cause the alternator to overheat, potentially leading to internal coil damage.
03:22 🔥 The Balmar alternator includes a temperature probe and regulator that monitors alternator and battery temperatures. It automatically adjusts the output current to prevent overheating.
05:53 🚗 Charging lithium batteries with an alternator poses challenges because lithium batteries can draw high currents even at low alternator speeds, potentially causing overheating and alternator wear.
06:22 🛠️ Solutions to prevent alternator overheating when charging lithium batteries include using larger alternators, regulators with temperature sensors, or current limiters like Buck-Boost, BMS 12/200, or the Orion Tr Smart DC to DC Charger.
07:16 🔄 Disconnecting lithium batteries from the charging source once fully charged can damage the alternator regulator if not done properly, and Victron offers equipment to protect alternators and battery systems.
2:54 - Well, Duh,... This whole 'bench' test is silly, because more then half of the cooling air for an alternator is provided by the the forward motion of a car and the cooling fan in the Radiator moving air over the running gear when the car is at standstill. You compounded this error by running the Alternator at RPM that it will never see in daily use, as the drive pulley on a standard engine crankshaft is much bigger then the one on an alternator, precisely so the alternator always spins at high enough RPM to function properly. The majority of modern cars, at engine idle, the alternator is shut down by the Engine Management system by turning off the feed to the field charge terminal, so at the RPM you get the smoke, the Alternator should be spinning but not powering. Very disappointed in how badly this test was done.
3:23 - You never ran the Balmar Alternator at the lower RPM, this alone tells us that the 'test' was was not done to repeated scientific standards where every device is tested in identical manner, but instead was done specifically to cause Only the standard unit to 'fail'.
The Victron products may be of high quality, but this video is disingenuine. It's a short step away from being a Marketing Dept Lie.
Correct, this is not a scientific test! There were no professors involved and most likely you are able to find many things in it that could be debated if that's you intention. It was never intended to be more than a way to show in a few minutes that charging lithium isn't straight forward and that it needs consideration. That doesnt mean its a lie but its there to prevent endusers of spending money on a lithium system and then face costly issues with the alternator. And believe me when I say that this clip alone showed many endusers what went wrong in their system and they learned from it. @@PiDsPagePrototypes
Ever measured the alternator in a summer traffic jam while charging a large lithium bank or even a machine room of a boat? @@PiDsPagePrototypes Could you please take the test on your own car and show the results honestly?
@@johannesboonstra6917 If the charging system is set up correctly, it won't be charging while you sit still in a traffic jam. As mentioned before, at idle the cars ECU will turn off the field activation voltage to save fuel and protect the alternator from overheating.
The machine room of a boat should be well ventilated, both to stop build up of dangerous gases and vapours, and to keep the room cool. If it isn't, it won't matter what brand of electrical equipment is fitted, the results will be failures.
victron should make an external alternator regulator
Agree, would be nice! but we prefer doing thing we are really good in ;-)
@@JohannesBoonstra-ol2nz like charging batteries?
Yes ! and making AC from DC for example ..
@@superformOG
Hello, I was just wondering whether it would be possible to purchase this and drive the automobile alternator connected to a high-rpm, 220v AC motor. I have a 5kva MPPT inverter, but I don't want to use a solar panel. What do you think of it?
Why this overcomplexity? Just use SMPS!
I am currently putting a system together using a Balmar mc -618 regulator, it is capable of adjusting field power to alternator using temperature input from the alternator along with other programable input data. Have you done any testing using Balmar's regulator with a standard OEM alternator instead of with a $1500 Balmar alternator?
With an exteral regulator its safe as well (if set up correct of course)
An engine running at idle is about 700/800 rpm but the drive ratio to the alternator is at least 1:2. So an alterternator speed of 1500 is not greater than an engine at idle
We know, its also not saying the time to failure will be as in the clip, but in time there will be an alternator failure for sure as the temperature will be to high for coil/bearings ect.
Rather than such overcomplicated setup, I would just put dc fans on the alternator.
Difficult to do when on a boat for example.
A typical, high quality (Nippondenso, Delco Remy, Bosch) alternator should be able to run continuously at full output for hundreds of hours. I don't know why your test unit started smoking, but it should not have. Car & truck alternators are typically designed to operate in 105C or 125C air environment, not component temperatures, but the air that it uses for cooling. The cooler it operates the longer it will last, roughly 2x the life for every 10C reduction. As the speed increases the alternator can produce more current, so it has to work less hard, and component temperatures drop. mentioned by others, a 3:1 ratio of engine to alternator is common, so at highway speed, when my diesel is turning 1400 RPM, the alternator is turning over 4000 RPM.
BTW, typically, an alternator reaches the highest component temperatures at around 3000 RPM when operating at full load.
the problem is that the alternator runs over its max....and that with limited cooling, specially on boats will reduce the lifespan dramatically.
My small 4cylinder van has a 160amp OEM alternator. My house battery will be 460AH Lithium. Can my van handle a 50amp DC-DC like the Victron Energy Victron Orion XS Smart 12/12 50A DC-DC Charger?
yes, that would be no issue !
@@JohannesBoonstra-ol2nz A 50amp DC-DC will pull 60amps and the vehicle itself will be pulling another 30-45amps for a total load of 100 amps. This far exceeds the 30% duty cycle you suggest for an alternator. Please explain. If the Orion Charger has duty-cycle control or the alternator itself is temperature compensated then I would agree with you.
@@cruze1953 we advise a 50% maximal load, not 30%
That is an awfully fat positive cable don't recall seeing too many of those on factory motor cars maybe on large vehicles with diesel engines busses, garbage truck, simi tractor, ect.
Generally when you run into these kinds of problems it's some kind of modification. I like simplicity like the older vehicles limit current by wire size to the alternator.
Use a length >1.5m of high temperature 8 gage wire and when there is a significant difference in voltage It will drop over the length of wire limiting the current.
Wire size and length would have to be adjusted to accommodate the situation as in the size of the alternator and what you're attempting to achieve. Key words High temperature rated.
This method properly fused and coupled with an appropriately sized relay closed by ignition on can alleviate any issues.
A poor-mans current limiter per se.
I guess the bottom line is if you're ignorant and you diy you better have deep pockets.
The more you understand about what you are working with the less chance something unexpected will happen.
For a starter battery you might be right, but filling a huge battery bank isnt helped when a cable size is reduced. Then stil a dcdc converter or alternator regulator is the best option ( safe/efficient )
New inquiry need help with this question, I have a dual battery lithium 12v 135amh profile and also an alternator cap output at 250amp for Jeep Wrangler. I also have a dual battery relay isolator that can handle lithium batteries. Will I also need a Victron shunt battery protector and of DC2DC converter for this setup?
If your relay isolator does not *limit* the current, then yes it would be useful for you too. On the other hand 250A is good output and 135Ah not so high capacity, so, you may be on safe level with your present system (your lithium battery does not draw very high current from your alternator even when the battery is empty).
People use them in car audio and there have been people to use them on their vehicles for a while now and I haven't read of anybody having a problem with their alternator
Its more boat thing as then the alternator gets less cooling, but sitting in a traffic jam in the summer will have the same effect/
Always wondered why high output alternators had 6 Awg wire now I see why they use the wire to limit the amount of current. Usually lead acid start batteries only need lot of current for short amount of time as they recharge time from an engine start is short. My Ram 2500 truck had duel alternators or 480 amps but wire is 6 gauge no way it could even come close to using all that current. More of a marketing scheme.
I must by chance have a really good alternator fitted as standard on my vw transporter i regularly idol charge and run my 700w inverter to charge up my lithium PowerStation i measured the positive coming off my starter battery onto my 400ah lead battery bank and when the inverter is running at full load i get 86A with an idol engine speed of 950rpm i must do this for around 2 hours continually 5 times a week i wonder why my alternator hasn't burnt up yet its also 12 years old
I think is got a max output of 140A
Most likely because you are driving and the ambient isn’t high , when you would have this setup on a boat or such it was a different story
@@johannesboonstra6917 I idle charge mostly so stationary and summer gets around 30c here I think what they are not accounting for here in this demonstration is the auxiliary pulley ratio I don’t think engine speed and alternator speed are mirrored
2:46 This is absolutely deceptive. Yes, that is less than typical engine idle speed, but you are not driving the alternator at a conventional ratio of 3:1.
Please see the many comment replies from Johannes about this.
Well this is a bloody eye opener. Wish i knew this before I went lithium. "You cant just use vsr you need to use dcdc charger, ooh but you cant use dcdc charger s they'll cook your alternator, you need a £700+ alternator if you want to do that" can someone please clarify. You can't just get a dcdc charger and wire it up like ALL THE WEBSITES SHOW? im actually a bit pxssed off here.
Perhaps the video is not clear , but to protect the alternator , you need to limit the current or it will overheat
If you have a external regulator or dcdc converter you are fine
If you just let the alternator charge full power over longer periods it may have a short lifespan
Please a video of a 12V lithium battery being charged from Toyota Hibridi inverter
In car audio regular alternators are used to charge lithium battery banks with NO issues. We never let battery get low to 50% like on video. If battery were to get that low we charge it at low amperage rate with a charger NOT with alternator
Correct , when the battery isn’t empty , the alternator has no trouble keeping it up to voltage.
If it has 50% efficiency and generates a thousand watts, doesn't that mean it dissipates 500 watts as heat? If it created a thousand watts of heat then it would be 0% efficient.
? If the efficiency is 50% the heat is equal to the output power.
@@johannesboonstra6917 Yes I think that's what I was trying to say 😊
I am about to connect an extra wire from my alternator to my Victron non isolated DC/DC charger. With how much Newton Meter do I turn the bolt back on the alternator while securing the cable shoe to it?
This video was very helpful and convinced me buy to buy the DC/DC charger!
why not just use a solar charge controller
Similar problem with the AGM it doesn't properly charge it get a proper dc to dc charger
230V three phase???? 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
is there a question in here?
It's the motor turning the alternator. What's the problem?
Use DelcoRemy 36si 28v 105 amp brushless alternator efficiency of 68%.
What if it has a BMS like a Battleborn?
Then the charge isn't limited and the alternator will still be overloaded. the BMS takes care of the cells, not anything else.
@@JohannesBoonstra-ol2nz Thank you. Guess there is something limiting the charge to exactly around 50 amps on a 180 amp alternator which is definitely a good thing because correct me if I am wrong but I'd think the batteries would pull even more without that
ts possible to charge a lifepo4 battery directly with alternator. If you now what you do. if you now the parameter and specs of alternator at low rpm, if the max current is compatible with your battery and also the charging voltage. Victron produce an intelligent relais to do that.
I have a 65A alternator. and 200ah lifepo4. During travel I have 20-30A of load for many utility like e-bike, fridge, evaporative conditioner etc etc. with a dc-dc of 30-40A I don't have any current to charge the battery. with a simple rele of 230A and 35mmq cable I charge 30A with 30A of loads. My alternator, a low rpm in poor cooling conditions (es at stoplight), don't can produce more of 20-25A, even in short circuit. its not depends from type of battery. lithium, lead, nichel...its depend from the delivery curve of the project of alternator
hello, not sure which type alternator this is , sounds as this is not a typical used AC alternator type with internal regulator.
supertypical Bosch or magneti marelli 90s years.. work perfectly. why victron produce a reel to charge lifepo4 directly?? why master volt do the same? all alternator in the world have a curve of current teeth depend from rpm. But depend to the curve and to the reduction ratio of the crankshaft. Its totally possible charge lithium battery with direct alternator in total safety if you now what you do@@johannesboonstra6917
Them results would be expected when your using just a 70 amp out put alternator
fit centrifugal bilge blower fan directly into alternater.
at the energy rate an alternator creates heat, this should be a huge one.
75 au dollars, centrifugal bilge fan, 60 cfm.
I have one , it powers seriously, can fit under car hood.
70amp citron alternator, no wonder it overheated, you wouldnt even use the car it comes from to use dual batteries. most dual battery cars have a 150amp alternator at a min. Redo the test with realistic conditions. ie air flow from a fan like on the radiator of the car and also wind flow from the car moving. also use lithium batteries with on board bms that regulates overcharge and heating issues. these test results are unrealistic to normal conditions. FYI yes it is best to use a DC-DC charger either way but lots of tests have shown it is not required and in some cases your lithium batteries can handle the direct input to lithium of 80amp like the test done by Mercedes.
It's not just cars , its also boats, there is less airflow there right? BMS with internal regulation is fine! as long as its being regulated, The point we are trying to make here is not that the battery can handle the current, of course it can. Its the alternator that with its 50% efficiency get far warmer then designed for and will have a short lifespan..
@@johannesboonstra6917 Yea but they were using a relatively weak alternator on a big battery bank. Which it was never designed for. The average single 12v battery bank is under 100ah for cars with 70amp alternators. 4x-6x more than standard. Then you have to consider they are mainly designed to charge LA batteries generally.
If you got the capacity for a large battery bank, you have the capacity for a bigger alternator or proper charge controller.
@@CowsGoMonkey the point is, due to the efficiency the heat generated is enormous , with a larger alternator even worse
@@JohannesBoonstra-ol2nz Sure, but the alternator is already there usually. Can't expect a moving vehicle to be efficient at using ICE for electricity. That is what ICE generators are for.
Getting charge from the alternator is just a byproduct/benefit of needing it in the first place. It's not meant to be the main source when idling, considering it would take hours of running/idling to fill a large bank. Not efficient. But very cheap and easy way to get "free charge" if you are already using the engine.
And if someone is putting in a larger alternator, it's usually not only to increase charging capacity/ability, but to be able to add more demanding electrical devices (lights, winches, etc. ) while the engine is running.
Like think about it...
@@CowsGoMonkey not sure what you mean, but point what was made here was that the alternator need to be protected against overload/overheat , then a DCDC converter is one of the possible solutions
The bms will never shut off, as the max voltage of lithium higher than other batteries, the alternator will only charge lithium to 80 ish %. In a motorhome application, most have 1 starter and 2 leisure. Therefore hard to imagine 1 lithium more damaging than 2 leisure at low charge. Disinformation only damages the brand and its reputation.
The point of the clip is to warn of overloading the alternator, this is the result of extreme low internal resistance and is not related to the BMS or state of charge. Due to the low internal resistance of the battery the alternator is running at a far higher power then designed for often....thats the issue. We have seen many many situations that the alternator gave up on lithium. Of course if you choose to run the alternator directly to the lithium, thats up to you.
I'm thinking you just should not charge these lithium batteries with an alternator period.
with a DcDc converter this surely can be done safely.
@@johannesboonstra6917link?
... why someone would use an alternator to charge a lithum battery? there are far better generator out there. And ... every one knows you need a battery charger
What about boats and vehicles?
Have you ever heard about RV and vans ?
@@dulcidy ok so you need it in a vehicle ... K
Pmax : Routside = Rinside. Battery resistance 28 mOhm, Generator resistance 58mOhm.
Guess where energy will be dissipated.
And yes you over unity generator people. Energy is always lost in energy transformation!
I am very sorry but I do not agree with this example. I am a big fan of Victron Energy and use lots of Victron equipment on lots of systems. I’m an electrical engineer with over 40 years experience in electrical systems both aviation and marine. I’m a ABYC member and advanced electrical advisor. Let’s look at some facts. 1. An alternator is used to provide power for not just charging a battery or batteries but to also supply all loads connected. This may mean an alternator is exposed to current that is equal to or higher than its output rating. Indeed in the old days alternators and dynamos were often accompanied with +/- Amp meters to show when the load was greater than the charge. In these cases alternators or dynamos did not burn out. In fact I have never in all those years come across an overloaded alternator, ever. 2. Where is the fan on that alternator? Internal? Maybe? But nothing like the fans normally fitted externally. 3. Bulmar, fab alternators, so are prestolite which having spoken to there technical department at their factory have agreed that their alternators at known to run at 140C. They also have no issues with running at max capacity. 4. Alternators have a max capacity which will be a figure somewhere below the actual capacity, but its capacity can not be physically exceeded because of the load or type of battery connected. Its max is its max and if its rated as a 100A model then ok maybe it can output 110A. But it’s still the max you will not get more even if you short circuited it. It is self regulating by its physical structure. 5. Even if some alternators struggle with running at max capacity and you fit lithium and want to provide the benefit of faster charging you will want an alternator to suit. But IT DOES NOT need to be a smart or multi stage charging alternator. It can be but it does not have to be. 6. Lithium batteries do not always have a lower internal resistance than LA. This is a fallacy and inaccurate. A large AGM battery or bank of batteries can have a lower internal resistance. That is fact. 7. Irrespective of chemistry a battery will draw current based on its size, level of charge and yes it’s internal resistance, which is proportional to its level of charge and size. Both Lithium and LA will stop charging when the internal resistance increases to a point no current flows. If either type is rated to be charged by a standard alternator it will charge and it will be safe left connected to that charge. If a battery manufacturer built batteries that failed or worse because they are being charged by the recommended voltage then they would be in court. But it seems that some can come up with unscientific theories to sell more equipment perhaps?
Hello Simon, the fact that alternators burn on large lithiums batteries sooner or later is not an opinion, It's something we have seen many times in real life....and then came with the advise to have a limiter/regulator or something else installed to protect the alternator. You mention resistance, the point is that a lithium battery does not go up in voltage during charging while a AGM or other lead battery does this immediately. Only when the battery gets near 100% this will happen. So a 10kWh lithium bank with a 100A alternator runs easily 7-9 hours on "overload" to get it full while doing this with AGM the max power is there for
@@JohannesBoonstra-ol2nz I agree that a large lithium battery can pull a large current over a long period of time. A so can I large load or a large LA. But if the case is that the system design is going to see this situation where the load or current is always or frequently be high and means the alternator is at max output then it makes sense to increase the size of the alternator or yes regulate the output. However it is not the case that 100% of the time there is a definite need for a multistage alternator or other devices including DC-DC converters should be used, which is sort of where the industry is going. Equally I would say not all alternators are the same and from past experience I have yet to see a burnt out alternator due to high output and that includes cases where regulators have failed and the voltage has gone high due to no regulation. My experience is mainly in the commercial boat sector and in temperate weather in UK. I am sure that in some circumstances such as poorly vented engine compartments and hot climates this may be an issue. But in all honesty the alternator used in the video is one that has what looks like a low level of ventilation in the form of a decent fan. This alternator may be typical on some yachts but it is not what I would normally be used to seeing. In my experience near all alternators including on yachts have an external fan. It is also important to accept that most fans need to rotate in the correct direction and that air is drawn from the back of the alternator and dissipated through the front, thus the heat is not directed at the regulator. There is always the risk that the wrong alternator is used on replacement, this I have seen. Another factor is the regulator voltage. It seems that in the USA regulators may regulate at higher voltages that re the norm than elsewhere. These voltages can be from what I’ve been informed as much as 14.6 volts or higher. In UK and on all engines I have worked on alternators are either 14.2 or 14.4 volts or double in 24V systems. Increasing voltage output would result in higher currents and perhaps put an alternator at higher risk of over temperature. These are all factors and my point is you do not always have to automatically apply a binary solution.
@@simonpembs internal fan are not typically worse then external I would say. Of course there will be solutions alternator wise in the future , but the majority of alternator out there are designed to refill a starter battery and feed the house load doing this. The point you made in getting a larger alternator doesnt work, as that one will get overheated as well, The lithium batterie will not throttle the alternator back by lifting voltage (as LA does) The large alternator does the charging with more curruent (so even more wear on the belt and most likely struggling engines when idling) . realize that an alternator of lets say 150A max, will do 170 or more on low voltage/lithium which means that it runs longer on max power then on LA , and beside this also 10-15% more power and at a lower voltage so that current is higher and even more heat is generated...thats the problem. Is there something like an alternator workshop in your area who happen to have an alternator test bench? try go there wit a 100A alternator and a half full 200Ah lithium batterie and see what the alternators starts doing. you might be surprised. What we did in the clip was to shown what will happen over time, not as fast as what was shown here as cabling and higher rpm might "help" the alternator, but the point is that there needs to be something installed to have it safely done with sufficient lifespan.
This test has nothing to do with the type of battery charged and more running the alternator at max output at low RPM. Lower RPM than it would see in a car by the way. Any load that pulls max current on the alternator at these low RPMs is going to heat it up. This is such a bogus test on so many levels. Put a regulator between the alternator and battery of 20 amps or so and it would run all day long. Alternators weren't designed to run at max output 100% of the time.
Please read the many replies from @johannesboonstra6917 below for more information.
You've got the speed of the driver with the wrong size polly. The driver running at 1500 RPM on an automobile engine has a much larger pulley driving the same size pulley on an alternator making the alternator spin faster than the engine. I might have guessed that an engineer would not quite realize that never having actually turned a wrench on a car does not qualify you to be an engineer for automotive uses or for figuring out how an alternator supposed to work. The rest of your demonstration is pretty good, but you're way low on the speed of the alternator by measuring the speed of the motor that's driving it.
Why don't you enter Spurs lead acid batteries of some type or design within the circuit so that they can help regulate the power draw?
its a test/demostartion of something what would happen over a longer period. but indeed
Überschrift Deutsch dann auf English Dokumentieren.
Bactery?😅 Really?
Fake
Really? having a alternator with a 50% efficiency running idle on a half empty lithium battery for a while doesnt burn the alternator? If you want we could repeat the test on your car, we take a lithium and connect its with jumper cables to your alternator and let it run for a while. We let you do the temp reading then.
Does victron even know what they're talking about??
We sure do , we have over 50 years experience and are very technically driven. The advice given here is to help you have a long lifespan of your alternator , of course you are free not to take advice given to you
U R right !!!!!!
All amateurs...........they even do not know how to use the right terms in "VICTRON CONNECT" app !!!!!!!!
@@johannesboonstra6917If you have over 50 years, then why don't you use the right terms ??????
Amateurs !!!!!!