My wife says you and I are virtually twins in our ways of thinking and tinkering. I am so glad that you have been able to do so well implementing the charging system. Also taking to heart what we had originally discussed about topping out the lithium batteries so they would balance. Your new device with the hall effect sensor, might I suggest a few additions. You need to perhaps add a few modes to the system. Assuming you have some sort of clock function on your device, whether it be a small IOT device or a small computer such as a PI-Zero. You might want to have a cruising mode capacity (Auto higher capacity) based charging, and a storage based capacity system(Auto storage). Let me explain. If you are out cruising sometimes what can be a real issue is that you might forget to reset the BBMS+ to a higher capacity when the weather gets bad. Then you get caught with your pants down during a weather event and the solar doesn't have a lot of capacity. This can happen especially if you are out exploring and away from the boat. Now you can accomplish this typically in your technology by using either variables that are updated perhaps by the minute or hourly., or a database at the same frequencies. By utilizing this scheme the variables/database can be updated by the amount of (solar/charge source) is coming into the bank. Where I am going with this is that the system could detect when solar in particular is not performing well as a function of time of day and the amperage coming into the banks. It should keep track of the amount of time spent over the BMS balancing current and if the solar just isn't coming in like it should. If the system can keep track of baseline charging and can determine that on a historic basis that perhaps it is more cloudy than usual and to just let the air out of the charging capacity to take it as far as it will go. This can give a cruiser the opportunity to make sure that even when they aren't watching, the system will allow the lithium to spend enough time in a state that will balance,. Also if a weather front comes through it will just know and will adjust charging limits to allow for the system to provide a power capacity cushion to the operator. In any matter, you absolutely must have a method to allow for balancing even potentially if in storage. The problem with storage might be that there isn't a lot of typical load on the battery to discharge it enough to hit say 50% if charged initially to balancing current. Though typically batteries in storage will kinda stay at the cell balance they were stored at if they just really sit. You can also add a webpage internally to some of these devices. Let me tell you about my home cooling system. I have several linear actuators that open my windows to cool my home, combined with a whole house fan. There are multiple ESP32 boards that will engage a local main power supply to open and close a window based on the temperature sensors on the boards and what the main board tells it to do. The sensors are inside and outside off the ESP32 boards. These sensors update a Mysql database on a Raspberry Pi equivalent board. When the temperature goes below a certain threshold the main board knows this, logs the temps, and tells appropriate windows to open. Now the system might know that some windows have the sun shining on them and therefore might pull in heat instead of cool, so those stay shut. So that helps regulate temperatures. It will also play an audio file several times that allows my smart device to hear my voice and to turn on air conditioning when the windows are closed and the temps require it. I also have a webpage on that main board that I can change values and update times where it might rain and what the high and low temps are expected to be. (I am working on getting the system to pull the device's information from an external weather source.) Which you too might be able to do...Now keep in mind your device's capability, but if it is a small board computer just make sure that you have some way to update the devices if there is something you overlooked in the programming, and to offer support. Also your systems should have at least an ultra durable sd card, which could be your alternative update method. I think you want to be really careful about having percentage based options, that the users aren't smart enough to turn up to balance their lithium. You can make the percentage work with balancing if there is enough of a load to occasionally override the percentage to take the batteries to their balancing current at periodic intervals regardless of the user's desire.
To an extent the variability of solar is accounted for by the charging characteristics of LiFePO4 in that, if you use a voltage based cutoff, on a good solar day the current will push the voltage up and reach cutoff point at a lower capacity than on a low current day. I have a set point of 3.5v (14v) and on a good solar day, with my efficiency set at 96%, the batteries hit 100% within a fraction of an Ah of voltage induced cutoff. On a low solar day they will head towards 103% or thereabouts. An active balancer looks after the balance and 3.5v is far enough inside the ‘knee’ for it to be able to maintain balance.
@@philbrooke-little7082 This does work for you I am sure. My thing I am talking about is That there are a lot of different types of batteries out there, with different balancing characteristics. A voltage based cutoff set at 50 percent (25-75 percent SOC) which would hold it in a range to maintain a longer battery life, would never balance most of the Lifepo4 batteries out there. Even if they hit say 53 percent or a little more if they drift up during the day. Most manufacturers have Battery Management Systems that top balance (A charge typically above 94 percent)in a passive state. They don't have an active balancer. If the cells never balance eventually one will likely fail and render the battery inoperable, and possibly permanently damaged. A lot of people that buy lithium are completely unaware this process even takes place. They think that as long as it's plugged in it's good. So having a system that can be set up for a particular battery in a web setup or Bluetooth connected app would be very helpful. Since most manufacturers have documentation stating what the balance voltage should be. Also passive balancers don't move much current so it can take a long time to balance a battery. Having a bunch of schmucks set their battery banks at 50 percent for a year of constant use would destroy a whole lot of batteries. That is why I suggested that the system needs to take voltages up every once in a while to keep the batteries healthy regardless of the setting
I agree it could be beneficial to charge fully on occasion. I also realize this is a new technology so both of my devices, in their own way, have a configuration option to "fully" charge on an interval while set to a lower setting. Contently once every 20 charge cycles for the BBMS and configurable for the BBMS+
Clark, have been wondering as I switch from WPMs to MPPTs this winter, how I'd manage this; perfect timing & really glad you've done the hard work for me. Please keep up the great videos
Awesome we finally got video on the bank manager !😁😁😁 its so cool cant wait till Bank manager+ im so excited this after finding your channel about year or so ago when you first talked about i was curious to see if there any products like this and i couldn't find anything so that make me even more excited for this
This always confused me, i thought I was missing something. Proper energy management is crucial for sailors on a low budget and tight space. Excellent.
The victron solar charge controllers have an adaptive absorption setting that will adjust absorption time based on the voltage before charging starts. I've seen it do very short absorption times, eg less than 10 minutes.
If anyone is looking for my charge controller it's available at www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms R McK-please read my friend Conrad's link at the bottom. He describes it well, but in short Lifepo4 can be harmed by low current overcharge. It takes a couple of years to see the results but any voltage over 13.48 (for 12v) can be detrimental. I think this is the reason batteries do better when not charged to full by other charge controllers. Also it can suffer from a memory effect if not charged to 100%. My device seems to charge to 100% safely.
To find the article I'm referring to take the link I sent you earlier. Read the bottom paragraph and you will find a link to Conrad's work. I think you would at least have to read that before saying there are chargers that I know about that meet those requirements to charge Lifepo4. Please take a moment to read that over.
Hi Emily and Clark.I’ve just stumbled on your video about mixing lead acid and lithium.As I have had trouble in my campervan Vw t4 for a while now watching my voltages dropping down with compressor fridge on 24/7 and my one of my agm ‘s has gone weak due to accidentally left an Earth lead off.I have 2 amplifiers in back one for the homemade subwoofer and other for the kenwood main speakers.I got the 2 kenwood Amos cheap off eBay 25£ .already had an alpine amp under front seat for my stereo..Anyway I do have solar panels a 100watt panel supplying an epever mppt plus another 100watt panel supplying a Renogy rover that has lifepo4 setting.also I have a dc to dc charger Victron that gets used as I drive to work and back everyday.So I can adjust Victron dc charger to lifepo4 setting for the new lifepo4 battery.I’m thinking now I can keep my one good agm battery 115ah.only bought last year.The other agm dropped down to 6v so think that weakened it.if I not gettin much solar after a day the fridge won’t run right comes up error with 12.4 volts not enough to run fridge,Shouldn’t have that problem with lifepo4 connected to fridge.I also have my old dc to dc charger connected in parallel with Victron.Now was thinking I can keep one agm to be charged from my spare dc charger on a separate circuit from lifepo4 for now as not sure on mixing them .Have to see how things go.thanks .Steve in uk
You sure can. It's your gear and you could do anything. But I wouldn't recommend it. Set yourself up much more simply as described here. I think you will be happier. All those "lithium" chargers aren't charging your Lifepo4 the way it should be charged. ua-cam.com/video/XDLK5CuGQPo/v-deo.html
Outstanding. I was just about to ask most of the questions this video answers. Perhaps more importantly, the video also answers questions that I didn't know enough to ask.
Thanks. Please consider buying one of my BBMSs. BBMS - Lithium and Lead: ua-cam.com/play/PLsT7_jPsZM5pApg5I7EPtLd15qXSqZn2U.html I think it will serve you well and protect your lithium investment.
@@Clarks-Adventure thanks for this. I'm just getting my feet wet with lithium. I'm doing my research on how to keep everything charged on my stock electrical while keeping my lead battery, while keeping everything charged off the 12v system. Most of the time in car audio you just remove the lead battery and replace it with a distribution block. Then charge the lithium as needed. I think that's how it works anyways lol
With the bbms you can just forget it. Let the car alternator do the charging. Only issue would be possible overheating if the alternator, but with your loads shouldn't be an issue I expect. I personally wouldn't have a system I had to manually charge.
Hi there Emily and Clark, Enjoyed this video very much. This is the kind of technical information that is difficult to find. If you are looking for features to add to your plus+plus model, please consider when all batteries are fully charged switching solar/wind power into domestic hot water tank up to a managed high temperature. I understand hot water is nice but not so necessary in the Caribbean. I am sure you could make this feature intelligent enough to switch back to house needs as required. I spent a couple of years on a boat in the Caribbean recently. I sure didn’t like dumping solar power when I had fully charged batteries in the early afternoon.
@@Clarks-Adventure I have this setup on my previous Camper which was all Lead-Acid (645AH @12V bank) which was an all-electric setup (no propane); and also the current RV with the Lithium-Lead Hybrid. I have a low-power relay that is controlled by the Battery State of Charge and when it got to a high level, the Relay would activate, turn on a AC SSR (Solid State Relay) which turns on the Hot Water Boiler, so any excess energy from the Solar would go towards heating the Water Store. You can use the same principle to run a mutli-way Fridge (12V/AC/Propane) fridge on "free" electricity instead of expensive Propane as well of course. On the RV, I have the relay setup so it activates not only on battery State of Charge but also if Shore Power is detected, as Shore Power hookup use is often free after paying a set per-day charge (at least in the UK) for the provision so may as well use it as much as possible instead of your own Propane :) The advantage of using a separate relay and SSR is that it is more flexible and is controller agnostic so you can use whatever model/brand you like and still have those features.
Excellent presentation. The only video I've found that propertly recognises that charging batteries in static, ideal conditions just does'nt exist. Switching appliance off and on, clouds drifting by, etc,etc..makes a bit of a nonsese of the multi stage charging claims. You have done a lot of great work here.
Thank you. Have you looked into this? www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms It's my take on how to charge li properly. I call special attention to the essay by Conrad linked to the bottom.
Geez Calrk - so glad I found your channel - great stuff - you solve my problems so much. I want a BBMS Plus. Need to sort out my charging systems and add some lithium then get one. Thanks man..Power to you guys.. much appreciated - Dirk
Thanks Dirk If you haven't seen it already the manual for the bank might help you plan. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms Also we are down to only a few left and I really have no idea when I'll get more China screwed up the last batch!
There are devices that will connect different chemistry batteries that cost under a dollar. It's called a wire. But it isn't safe for your boat or your batteries.
Hi Dan, Glad it's working for you. But using your BMS to end charging is not a good idea. This is how I'm recommending it be done now. This device is the only way I've seen to not overcharge your Li. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
Hello! I’m very interested in the system your working on. Please put me down as a buyer. 😁 Cant wait for the next video on this. Thank you, and have a wonderful & safe day. Cheers, Dani
David @wildebus, and I are members of the same UK camper (RV?) group. I have asked him to fit a 100ah lithium battery into my existing 345ah (3x115 Leoch lead carbon acid ) battery bank. 1, Because I'm trying to wean the van off of lpg as much as possible. Cooking electric/heating diesel 2, Taking high amperage from the batteries during low sun is difficult to replace by solar. 3, Being parked at meet ups for 5 or 6 days will take the LCA batteries well below 40% SOC. Driving replaces the charge via a Ctek + Smartpass. Solar is 350w via Victron 100/30. The hold up is 1, He is on vacation. 2, He is waiting for a relay to be tested to restrict the overcharging, you mention in your video.
The Relay that I will be fitting is a specially adapted (to my specifications) High-Current (200A) Latching Relay - this means it can handle any possible currents that the system can be called on to deliver, and the current overhead is nominal, being a latching unit. The VSDR Lithium Controller, as I call it, is simplier than Clarks BBMS but I think it will be a good option if used in conjunction with a Lithium Battery with a good quality BMS (I think the BBMS will offer more flexibility on the choice of Lithium Batteries, but the battery we are going for is very capable and can handle 500A surges and 150A constant currents, so the possible current surge on voltage equalisation on reconnection into the Lead Bank should have no issues that need to be managed). I can do that manually with my Isolation 1,2,1+2 switch and have no issues when checked the concept, but automation is the required way to go. IF you have certain batteries, such as the Lithium battery discussed and Lead-Carbons, PLUS charging kit that can be finely configured (like the Victron kit and Ablemail charger I have), THEN you can pretty well get away without either the VSDR or the BBMS - but having the extra controller does give you greater choice in both Chargers and Batteries. (Back home now after 400 Mile back home today ;) )
Does your approach handle charging at really low C rates? Batteries can overcharge at low voltage. I found a 210amp bistable relay made by a major japanese manufacturer for $25us in bulk. It's what I'm using.
The lithium batteries we are using do not have a problem with charge rates whether high OR low due to their BMS design. The relay I will be using is a programmable relay with microprocessor and optional Bluetooth interface (so a little bit more than a 'relay' relay I guess ;) ). You are controlling how your relay works via the programme in your BBMS; I am controlling my relay by programming the actual relay.
Balmar alternator regulators can be set to check the batteries after as short as 6 or 10 minutes (I forget which) so they aren’t being subjected to the high charge for 2 hours. I did this for our flooded batteries because ours were fully charged when going for a day sail after being on shore power.
Yes, I am very interested in this project. I have always thought that the tools of optimization are great for people who are really interested to understand the complexity of a system and operate it with conscious effort. I really like your described option to optimize with weather forecasts in such a way as to only max the charge level when forecast calls for it. Likewise for any situation where the battery becomes mission critical and the mission has some dimension involving above-normal variance (risk).
Thanks for sharing. I haven't looked at your tech yet, but did watch your entire post. The fact that you addressed boiling, but not hydrogen bubbles and bloating is an issue for me. Lead batteries swell and deteriorate when they are overheated, yes. They also accumulate hydrogen resistance, which you completely bypassed in your psynopis.
@@Clarks-Adventure Thanks! I'm not dissing your solution. As a bluewater sailboat guy and an RV guy, I'm just pointing out what we're (or at least I) are looking for. I get that you have to protect your patent, but you should address real battery charging issues, not just hyperbole. If your solution includes lead/acid batteries, but does not address hydrogen bubbles or bloating, it's not A solution, IMO.
My solution is only about protecting the fragile Lifepo4. The existing charge controllers do a decent job with the lead. I've been living off grid for over 30 years. I tend to get 10 to 15 years out of my lead (big bank shallow discharge) The problem now is the "lithium" setting on virtually every charge controller damages Lifepo4. And it's crazy expensive to replace all your charge controllers. My approach addresses this and a few other issues. It should make both banks last a long time. What could be done to address this h2 issue you bring up?
You are obviously a smart man..... I'm learning about lithium for my camper now, time to replace the lead acid battery. Only using one battery thinking about the lithium....My converter/charger is not for lithium..... 2013 camper....
Thank you. I'm currently editing a video all about putting li in my camper with the BankManager just now. It will be on Patreon in a day or so if you can spare 5 bucks. I think you might find it helpful
now for the 2 types being joined you have it nailed. I will order one for my RV. I have both types of batteries and I see where my normal house bank battery could get over charged
Woops ignore my last response. I see you already know about it. I have 60 boards on the boat now. Once I get them soldered up o and tested that batch will be ready to ship out.
Clark, thanks for the videos. I am very interested in your device, the BBMS plus. Please inform me as soon as the device is available on the market. I already found your last year's video "Adding lithium to your lead battery bank" interesting and inspiring. However, I mainly charge my battery system via the generator while driving with the engine and during the night in the harbour with mains power and an intelligent battery charger. That's why your solution from last week's new video "Best way to charge lithium - mix it with lead" is for me the key to a hybrid battery system consisting of LifePo4 and lead-acid batteries. I use most of the power during the day while sailing: in addition to the refrigerator, various navigation devices and the autopilot are running. I look forward to further information and solutions.
@@Clarks-Adventure Hey Clark. Filled out the survey for interest in both the AC and BBMS (same form). Would you like to email us all a periodic update on the progress of both projects? I'm trying to wait for your solution. However as supply chains fall apart I need to gear up and provision now in anticipation of shortages. Thanks.
In addition to disconnecting the lithium when charging, wouldn't it be beneficial to do the same to the lead when discharging? That way once the lead bank drops to a selectable percentage (likely 40%-50%) the system would disconnect the lead bank allowing you to continue drawing down the lithium without over discharging the lead.
The way the Hybrid setup works, the lithium is always used first. By the time the lead is noticeably discharged (anywhere from below 90% say), the Lithium is just about as low as you want to take it, so no that would not be a good plan IMO.
What he said. It's just kinda magic on the discharge end. It's the charge end that needs help. Li and lead in parallel will discharge the li mostly before the current starts coming from the lead. Then the lead protects the lithium from over discharging. Also it seems that a really large load on the lithium causes it to slump in voltage which allows the lead to help out. Kinda perfect except for the charging.
I’ve worked on car batteries (Mercedes EQS) and built small solar battery projects: this is aligned with everything I know about the topic. I am not on top of alternator charging but I can say that the scenario where your diodes die when the Li-Ion battery shuts off is just not acceptable: there should be a way to protect the alternator. I also think that there should be an alternator dedicated for this task so that the primary one is kept safe.
What you describe as a BMS is a BPC - battery protection circuit. A BMS communicates and issues commands to the system it is connected to. Victron’s standard defines: - CVL Charge Voltage Limit - CCL Charge Current Limit - DCL Discharge Current Limit While I’m not familiar with your theory that charge voltage must change based on charge current - if the battery manufacturer wanted that, they could adjust the parameters easily using the above. Ie. If charge current was high, they could raise the charge voltage to match. If the current dropped, they could drop the voltage to match. I’d love to see some literature about the relationship between charge current and voltage as you describe.
What you described can happen when you are plugged into the mains or running a generator to charge an unloaded battery. But in the real world with wattage changing and random loads coming on it's a lot harder. I'd start your research with Conrads paper at the bottom of this page. He gives links to follow for more information. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
As loads come on and off during charging, the wattage changes equate to the DC bus being discharged to some extent while simultaneously being charged. If the charge exceeds the discharge then the balance is the charge current - and in that moment your applicable charge voltage could apply. So, a control look that monitors the charge current and adjusts the voltage to match would achieve what you’re talking about whether it was on a generator, a house, an RV or a boat. What matters not is the source of charge but the balance that is making it to the battery. Thanks for the steer. I will read Conrad’s paper.
Yes that's basically what the BankManager does. Though down that path live dragons. As they so often do in engineering. It seems straight forward but the actual implementation was somewhat more complicated.
Another great video Thanks. I was just reading on the Grenada Cruising Information group on FB about a overheating concern of their batteries while on the hard. …. Some say to cool them with a small 12v computer fan…while others fear it won’t be enough given the 40°C+ inside the cabin…. What’s your take on not starting a fire with Li. I’m guessing your Bank Manager doesn’t allow for overheating, certainly not at 75% of charge
I've really never heard of a Lifepo4 burning. Li-on yes, they have no place on a boat unless they are tiny. I'd like to know more. How hot? C rate at the time, in or out? Li being low resistance shouldn't get as hot as lead.
Does the bank manager has a temperature input to monitor the high and low temperatures of the lithium as well as auxiliary charge function where once the banks are full, the excess power can go straight to water heating or refigeration?
Clark...good deal on your BBMS w/ hall effect current sensor....most only use voltage sensing. Nice concept of using advantages of both battery systems on one platform. Nice circuit board design. Have you talked to anybody on mass production...with patent pend in hand?
@@Clarks-Adventure Probably because all circuit boards are non-repairable double-sided surface chips. I don't see the video gamer generation ever picking up a soldering gun-iron...they don't even own one in their house. I don't own a suction ball but I have lots of experience with gently hitting to shake off the molten solder when removing components.
Great video brother thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise I will put this into practice I am a new subscriber and I cannot wait to see your other videos
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms The BankManager works with any charge source that can charge lead batteries. If by two types of batteries you mean lead and LiFePO4 that's what this is for. If you mean lead and two different (manufacturer or age) Li banks you would need two BankManagers
Great videos. Doing a complete rebuild of our F&C44. Looking forward to news on your BBMS+ as have just inherited 700 ah of AGM batteries and considering adding some Li batteries to the mix on our 12V system. Also inherited a 24 V 1500W windlass that I would like to use so looking for ways to mix everything.
Great information. If you use Midnite Solar charge controller with their shunt (whizzbang junior) you can define the ending amps that will stop the charge cycle.
I've seen many liveaboards have 100% Lithium, some still have 100% AGM, and a few have a mix of the two. What do you think would be optimal for battery types? Is it that a Lead Acid starter battery is more efficient or easier than Lithium? There are for sure so many options that it's not necessarily easy to answer. I would guess it's more practical for most liveaboards to have a mix for many reasons. Clark your ideas about this are really brilliant.
The beauty of this is you can use what you have. So what you have now plus Li is the best answer. If I was starting from scratch I'd have to look long and hard at this new lead carbon battery for the Pb side. My AGMs are probably the next best choice.
Clark,as always love your thinking.l am entertaining lithium on 30 ft boat running mainly fridge/phones/lights/nab instruments Was thinking of 2x70 or 2x100 amp lithium ,but am now thinking 1 lithium and 1 acid maybe making the acid a bigger amp hour than the lithium ,not expecting any advice or endorsement of/on my plan but just an expression of appreciation on how you think outside the box and thoroughly work stuff through when you share it Thank you
If you want one there is an order form on the link I sent you. I think my distributor is currently out. But I have some more boards here that I hope to finish up real soon. And if course you won't be invoiced until we are ready to ship.
This device knows how to safely connect Li and Pb. It does it every day so it needs to. Just install it properly and turn it on. No promises as this is experimental but Temptress hasn't burned down in the months this has been on the job. That was the very first trick I taught this device!
For fully discharged you can easily find those. If you go hybrid just use a lead alarm as you will be held in the lead range when approaching low state of charge. If you weren't hybrid this is a difficult problem. With hybrid there are lots of very cheap options. See RV sources. For nearly full. No need. My BBMS takes care of the disconnect virtually every day and you won't even know it happened.
Hi, Interesting subject. I'm curious about more detailed information like detailed information about the working principle, integration in existing setup. Cheers, Pascal
Coming. I'm finishing up the development. Honestly that is taking up most of my days lately. I'm in a hurry because a Patreon patron is flying in later this month to pick one up. They REALLY want one! I have base function working but really want to give them at least a Frankenstein's monster version of the plus version.
Hi Clark, loved the info on the BBMS unit! What is the minimum full-charge voltage held by an older lead individual battery to work OK? Eg. in a bank of lead batteries, if one battery at 97% charge only delivered say 12.7 volts (or less) could this still work OK? I'm guessing it would mean the lithium works until almost fully discharged. What settings in the BBMS+ unit might help to get around / optimise this?
Hi Greg. This approach is best done with really healthy lead but if yours are a bit old it just means you would loose more power overnight. I go into this in detail in the first "lead and li" video I did. ua-cam.com/video/tAuPfgZgXec/v-deo.html There are three videos on this topic so far that you might enjoy.
@@Clarks-Adventure Yeah have seen it, a great intro. Amp flow x hours. Would you recommend BBMS(+) with manual intervention, let's say overnight? Please share some benefits of the system. (Manual disconnection of lead at times, with resistor re-connection later.) Once re-connected, the system would charge as normal, with lithium disconnecting automatically at higher voltage.
There is a bbms video coming soon. Once they are ready to order. With either a BBMS or a BBMS plus installed no manual intervention bis required. You could even equalize your lead and the lithium would be fine.
For BBMS Plus Pro - RS485 please. Then I can use that with some basic weather forecasting API to automatically tell the Bank Manager Plus Pro to charge the Lithium to a higher level without waking up the next day and kicking myself because it's gonna rain all day and I forgot to adjust it beforehand. I'm surrounded by paddocks not water, so it's a bit easier to know what location to get weather data for tho.
Since I made that video t really refined my charging algorithm. I now recommend you set the BBMS Plus to charge to 100%. It is really good at not overcharging and with charging to full you don't develope a memory effect. I now feel that's the best setting and what I use myself.
Hi Clark, great info. Glade to see you’re so honest I’m presently looking at Lithium to simplify my life. Have you seen Life Power 4 new EG4 batteries, not sure about marine use, but they seem incredible??
I really think all the Lifepo4 cells are either matched or not. Doesn't matter what reseller puts their name on them. They are all made in China. Getting a matched set of cells makes a difference though. ua-cam.com/play/PLsT7_jPsZM5pApg5I7EPtLd15qXSqZn2U.html
In the hot Texas summer lead-acid automotive batteries last 2 to 4 years nominally. I am getting at least 8 to 13 plus years on my lead-acid batteries by charging them every weekend...with a frequency driven desulfate charger. When the green LED light comes "on" showing 100% battery status i unplug the charger. Charger is called: Xtreme Charge, 12volt maintenance charger, Model XC100. Hey, as an engineer I thought it might be a gimmick...but that's the entire key to lead...desulfating the plates back to new....so you don't GROW those lead fissures that short-out plates or have sulfide oxidation that degrades the fully charged battery down to 12.4v in 4 years versus keeping it at 13.2v . I've been using the XC100 charger for about 10 years. One of my older batteries was 8 years old when i started charging. It was starting to have reduced power issues...and this charger keep it going until 13 years when it finally died during a summer heat. All my batteries are old...all keep the 13.2v fully charged. My next gameplan is just to pull out 8 year old batteries and replace them. Years ago... I actually used to do preventative battery maintenance on my wife's car and just replace the battery every 3 years. Not anymore...8 years is the new 3 years. The XC-100 shutsdown automatically once 100% charge is reached. I don't think it's checking for amperage being accepted into battery for determining shutdown; rather i believe the XC-100 takes a voltage reading and then shunts across the battery (resistance). Every 30 seconds it shunts and goes out and rechecks the voltage for how much it dropped...if it doesn't drop by a small margin (value-%)....battery status goes from 75%% charged to 100% charged and shutdown charging automatically, else it repeats it frequency desulfating charging operation. The XC-100 also does a 12 hour charge test and will tell you if you battery is BAD. Has no connection operation light too.
Hello Clark, interesting to listen to your tips. I have an Yanmar engine, with 180A dynamo. I have my boat batteries 3x110 Ah Li, and 2x90 Ah AGM batteries for thrusters, and 2x90 Ah AGM for startmotor. Te batteries are connected togehter with a Victron Argofet unit. The dynamo har an internal regulator of 14,0 V. I have battery monitor (Victron) for the Li batts. When I start the engine and the batteries are typical 50-60% after 2-3 nights without charging ( The AGM batteries are typical 12,5 - 12,6 V). The A is quickly raising to 90-110 A (mesured directly from the dynamo), but after 4-5 minutes the Amps reduce to typical 50-60 A, and V are climbing gradualy to about 13,7 V. All 3 battery banks will now have the same voltage. Now the Amps continue to fall to 40, then about 20 Amps, until the votage is close to14,0V, and no current is going to the Li batteries any more. The battery monitor now typical shows the batteries are at about 70%. I have to drive the eninge for many hours (5-6) to reach 98%. If the trip is shorter, I have less battery capacity for every day. Do you have any comments to my system, and any tips for the dynamo to give more Amps ?
Modify your alternator to use an external regulator ua-cam.com/video/X4_OoCA8TjY/v-deo.html And use a BankManager. The difference will surprise you. Also depending on where you are solar might be a good idea.
@@Clarks-Adventure I only have a small solar panel, 120 w, that I use for charge the Li batts, and put the "load" from the solar regulator to my thruster-batterybank. I live in Norway, so not so much solar power in winter time. So normally this panel take care of these banks. The issue is when I stay out for many days without shore connection and want to fill up my Li batteries quicker. I have may be two options: External regulator or a new internal regulator rated to 14,4V. I don't know your BankManager, is it on the market?
With a BankManager hybrid battery installation all charge power goes to the lead and the BankManager steals it until the li is full. I suggested the video above because in that video I show how to convert your alternator to external regulation for no cost. You will not get a fast charge rate at 14v and you need a regulator that goes into float if you are going to charge fast as long fast charge will hurt lead batteries. Without a BankManager 14v sustained will greatly shorten the life of your LiFePO4
Perhaps you could add a feature to increase the SOC on a regular schedule to provide top balance without having to manually do it. This would be a kin to the equalization program of some chargers for lead
Very observant. That's an important feature. The BBMS has an option to do that once every 20 days. The BBMS+ will be more configurable but do the same kind of thing.
@@Clarks-Adventure perhaps the trigger could be based on some measure of cycling rather than calendar. Perhaps a sum of amp hours charge and or discharge. In my case my boat sits on a mooring for a week or two with little power use and then may see heavy use cruising for a few weeks.
I have a sort of hybrid system on my boat. The alternator is wired to a lead acid start bank. That is the only charging for that bank. Keeping the lead acid start battery directly connected to the alternator protects the alternator (i.e., the alternator can not be disconnected from the batteries by the lithium BMS). My house bank is lithium iron phosphate. The lithium batteries have two charging sources. First my solar array is connected to the lithium battery bank via a Victron SmartSolar charge controller which is programmed to shut off charging when the batteries reach 14.2 volts. Second I have a Victron Orion Smart isolated DC:DC battery charger between the lead acid start bank and the lithium house bank. The DC:DC charger uses the same charging profile as the Victron solar controller. The DC:DC charger is also set up so that it only provides charge to the lithium bank when the engine is running. It stops charging when the engine is shut off. It also has an on/off switch so I can leave it off. The DC:D charger is also sized so that I can safely charge the lithium bank from the alternator even when the engine is running at idle speed. With this system the two battery banks are never directly connected, but I have no issue with having adequate cranking amps to start the engine and my alternator is protected from being pushed to maximum output by a depleted lithium battery bank. The system works very well.
Here is another way to go. It has some advantages: It can charge your Li with the full power from your alternator. It cannot overcharge your Li. The victrons can and do. It allows your lead to be available after the lithium is depleted this way the lead supports the li form over discharging. There is no inefficientcy from dc-dc chargers. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms It's another way to go. I'm biased at course but I find it best.
I just built two banks, Lead acid that will be supplemented with grid power from my LifePO4 bank. All new battery's, eventually i will phase out lead acid. Just too heavy to deal with, I do like how they will work in freezing weather as long as they have a charge. So i will be making the lead acid work, let them discharge a bit and them top them off with grid power from the LifePO4 bank. This is in a tow behind camper. You might get a kick out of this, I have brought my 400ah bank of LifePO4 charge time down to 3 hours flat. At first i only had a 4 amp charger from costco, It would of taken me all week to charge 400ah once with that charger. I now have Four 35 amp chargers that i have wired in parallel a total of 140 amps of charging current. That is a 35x improvement over my 4 amp charger. So i have turned a week of generator Run time into just 3 short hours. I do have solar, this is just to supplement solar charging in the most efficient way possible to cut down on generator run time. In the winter if i have to run my generator too much i will run out of fuel and have some really cold nights ahead. 140 amps is only slightly above the recommended 100-120amp charge rate for the size bank i have. By the end of the charging cycle the chargers taper off close to 120 amps. I am still fine tuning the system, found my kill switch's are creating some resistance in the system, going to up size the awg to see if it solves the issue.
How does this work if I have two lead banks, one start and one house. I want to add lithium to the house bank. My selector switch allows me to connect both start and house. I think i should add a voltage sensitive relay in parallel with the selector switch and NEVER switch it to all. OR, make the start bank fully separate save for the VSR. What do you think?
Hook them up like this ua-cam.com/video/Xp6ssk4Guuc/v-deo.html What you commented on is a very old video. I've come up with a much better way to do this. Only way to charge your Li correctly. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
So a feature you should consider adding is to satisfy the new ABYC recommendation under TE-13.5.6 "If a shutdown condition is approaching, a BMS should notify the operator with a visual and/or audible alarm prior to disconnecting the battery from the DC system." If that feature were included and your system could operate either with or without lead, you would have a much larger market since the majority of drop-in lithium solutions do not have a BMS that communicates over CANBUS or other protocols to external devices.
This is really exciting that your are coming out with solutions for the cruising community!!! How about sourcing 12v fans like the Caframo that are reliable and efficient and not ridiculously priced for how long they last?
Their new "most expensive" fans actually seem to last. Shirocco II. After what I'm going through just now with supply chain. NO WAY! I like development. Hate the business side of it.
Lithium can really move the amps up to the limit of it's BMS. Put a big enough BMS on your cells any you should see much flatter voltage from lithium. Nice steady 13s with high current draw. I'd think you guys would also benefit from some super caps to handle the transient loads from moving the woofer coils. The two together would be my starting point. Easiest and safest way to put li in a car would probably be to leave the lead starter battery there and add Lifepo4. How many amps average does one of these sound systems draw?
I really need some help... I want this module, but I can't seem to even get my flooded bank to jive with my lithium at all to even consider buying the module. I put them together and ran it just to see what happens, and just like you said, the lithium takes the load and the flooded were giving 1A max the whole night, then when the amps went to 2A from the flooded, the voltage was all the way down to 48v and I was scared of letting my lithium batteries go down any lower... The stinking flooded batteries still weren't carrying any load at all. So if I buy the module, would I have to have 2 solenoids to turn on and off BOTH banks? I was thinking you would just regulate ONE of the banks to cut off the soak of the lithium once it needed to top off the bank and the lithium was full. Should I let it run lower than 48v to get the flooded batteries to start carrying the load??
I'm assuming a 48 volt installation. Your lead should be supplying power once your combined system voltage goes below 51.2. once you get down to 48v most of the power should be coming from the lead. You are right, you need to get this sorted before you get a BankManager. Over comments I really can't analyze it properly but some ideas. If your lead is old and sick this could happen. If you have a high resistance in your system this might look like it's happening but if you measure voltage from the lead terminals it will verify that. Assuming you are running a BMS you should be protected from undercharge. That isn't really a problem until about 40v. But no need to go that low. I do have a sort of consulting service on Patreon. People who sign up for the Dream Believers tier get phone calls with us. If you can't get this sorted on your own I'm confident we can work it out together.
@@Clarks-Adventure amazing! I'll sign up when I get a few more tests done and still need help. I love this idea BTW. My only problem is having to buy lots more expensive large cables for my whole home system before even knowing if this is going to work out. I would love to be able to use my golf cart batteries in the winter for this instead of just letting them sit around.
Great Dustin, Looking forward to talking with you. The manuals for the BankManager are available on the order page so you can see wiring diagrams and such. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
@@Clarks-Adventure I don't think it will work with that charging profile... maybe there's some sort of way to work it out... but once all of the load is on my 48v flooded bank, I could have upwards of 120A at times loaded all on the flooded. If they would work WITH the lithium packs, it would be ok and spread out, but putting all that current on the flooded batteries at the end of the cycle, doesn't seem safe. I don't think Trojan T-125 batteries are meant to handle that much of a load.
You have to do what you are comfortable with of course. If you don't fully deplete your Li you will never draw everything from the lead. With the BankManager you do need some lead but not much to just make it work. The lead is there to mellow out the charging source after the li disconnects. And only to produce power after the li is basically dead anyway. The big advantage is the BankManager protects your Li from low current overcharge (read the comment by Conrad linked to the bottom of that page) I'm currently setting up a 36v Duffy electric boat for a friend. It's powered by li but I needed lead to allow my system to work. Going to install three 7ah 12v AGMs. They will be protected to 15a with an auto reset circuit breaker. The idea is to never actually run the boat on them but if you lose power you can wait a bit and with very conservative throttle settings you can get to shore. You could consider something similar.
Yes, you are right. They all should. This is important for lead but I don't believe that is enough to keep lithium healthy. I had a "quad cycle" charge controller I bought back in the 90s that had this. Best one I have personally used.
@@Clarks-Adventure the larger controllers I deal with have End Amps, like Outback FM80 & FM60, MidNite Classic series and Schnieder MPPT-150-60, etc. Also Victron SmartSolar controllers have it and it is called Adaptive Absorption and End Amps is called Tail Current. This is an interesting concept to mix AGM with Lithium. I’ll have to give this a lot more thought.
Thanks. I appreciate the information. Have you seen this? www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms So far it's the best description of my approach so far. I really need to do a low technical "sales" video on this device but so far I'm unable to keep up with demand as it is. There is a link to the manuals on this page. Please take a look, you seem to be knowledgeable.
Hi this is exactly what im looking for, have decent LA and only want to add additional LI capacity. How would you make this work with Hyrdo & Wind generator and a solar panel? Assume I still need a DCDC charger to protect my alternator?
No dc-dc. I really don't like them. This is an old video. This is how I recommend doing it now. It automates everything and, most importantly, solves the low current overcharge issue (see Conrad's article linked at the bottom of the page). www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms I address alternator issues and other things in recent videos. I suggest you look through our back video catalog on this subject.
I'm sure Rick Moore is climbing the walls wit this. He's put so much in to standardized equipment that a mod to all that would be mind boggling for him perhaps. I'm just switching to a hybrid system and found this to be very enlightening. The more technical your description is the better. You must be programming micro controllers right on the boat ? Was the prototype Arduino controlled ? If it was I'd love to see some of those resources and scripts ?
Yes it's microprocessor based and all development happened on Temptress. I'm thinking about a next video before I actually show my toys. It sounds click bait but it's actually useful. What do you think about a list of catastrophic failures that can happen with Lifepo4? I know 3 right off the top of my head that can destroy your electrical system in short order and cost a LOT to repair.
@@Clarks-Adventure A well researched discussion of catastrophic lithium battery failure as it relates to boat safety would be very relevant and not clickbait. Not just the BMS system failing and having no power. Real world risk analysis of lithium reaching combustion temperature is hard to come by. Some want to exaggerate and sensationalize, while others have a vested interest in downplaying or dismissing the risk for their devices. This has been on my mind. I've been thinking about a contained battery box and water flooding system. Also how easily do lithium batteries become involved in a fire that doesn't originate from the batteries.
As I understand it it's hard to get Lifepo4 to fail that way. Li-ion has no place in a boat because if it's tendency to fail "hot". But I've done no independent research. What I'm suggesting is a video about how one could (with the best of intentions) kill a Lifepo4 bank, or alternator.
@@Clarks-Adventure I can think of lightning based damage. But, with correct fusing, Lifepo4 should be fairly safe. It doesn't flame on like Lithium Ion , a a huge plus. But, how do they fail when miss treated ? Do they just stop working or is there something more catastrophic ?
If a boat were using your BBMS, might there be any advantages in having 2 battery banks, both with lithium & lead, with an A/B/A+B/Off selector switch? If so, might there be any advantages in drawing power from 1 bank while the other is being charged, then reverse them?
No much the opposite. Even though lithium doesn't slump it's voltage as bad as lead it does do that. And lead really does. By slump I mean when you draw current from a resting battery it's voltage goes down in proportion to what you draw as a percentage of the battery's size. So if you split your bank you loose more voltage (and therefore watts) upon discharge. Similar for charging. So one big bank is more efficient then two half sized banks.
Will Prouse (something with Will Prouse channel) showed data on recharging and discharging Lithium Ion or lithium something metal. Charging to 75% and only draining to 25% supposedly makes your cells last for decades. I think he'd love to know about this combo, looks great to me, but I'm no expert.
It isn't recommended to use different chemistry of batteries because lead acid batteries need twice the size of the solar panels and twice the pressure to push the charge into the batteries than Lifepo4 batteries. A discharged lead acid battery make take 12 hours for a full charge while Lithium can be charged in two hours. Besides, the efficiency of Lithium is 98% but lead acid is very low and very heavy.
Yeah, i love Will Prowse's channel, and i was wondering if he'd be up to speed with Clark here. It'd be cool to see them hanging out :). i'm also very glad i ran into this channel, i love this idea (and the AC too!).
I'm not networked in any way. Canbus is more of an automotive thing I think. Strangely I do have canbus network on board but if I networked this I'd probably use nmea2000 or just normal internet stack.
Is this lead/lithium system connected to the starter of the main engine? If the main engine starter draws 300 starting amps would it cause the lithium BMS to trip?
Never has. The wiring from the starter battery and switches cause a bit of a voltage drop do most of the starter power comes from the starter battery. Also with this kind of system the lead helps out when a huge load comes because even for lithium the voltage drops with big loads. When it drops below 12.8 the lead it there to help.
Hello, thank you for the informations. Is it possible to connect a LiFePO4 battery to an AGM battery when the montage is: AGM battery Cyrix-ct Starter battery Engine alternator (basic model, internal regulator). Should I worry about the alternator or the Cyrix-ct be burn by the lithium battery? Or the AGM will act like a resistance and limit the current for the lithium battery.
@emilyandclark. I just got a new trailer and come to find out it has a 12v fridge that is eating through my leadacid battery that came with it. So I found a decent deal on an EPOCH 460Ah. This bad boy has a decent BMS but I don’t see anywhere the abilty to set charging levels. The trailer has a converter that is rated for both LA and LiFePo. And has smart detection. I have a couple of questions if you don’t mind. I haven’t look at the cost of your bank manager, but I am assuming it ain’t just a $100 piece of equipment. A) my usage is simply to run the fridge, a couple of lights. A water pump and the heater blower for up to a week on a single charge. Or a couple of hours on a genny. Is your bank manager overkill? B) should I keep my LA in place and disconnect the LI while in transport to save the alternator on my truck? Perhaps keep them both on? I assume if keeping the LA then the BBM is recommended. C) I have gotten used to keeping the old trailer plugged in to shore power while parked in my driveway. This way I can run a heater via the shore power 120 during the coldest months to help prevent freezing. If I do this on the new trailer Would this affect the LI battery? Otherwise the only thing running is just the smoke and CO detector ( going to install switches on the USB ports to turn them off). Again would the BBM be worth the investment ?
Whatever you do don't buy the EPOCH. They tried to do my BankManager trick in their BMS and missed the mark. There are lots of webpages out there telling you how to work around their screw up... Sort of If you want something of that quality get the VoltGo. If you use the link on my leader board you will get a big discount. Yes of course I think you should go BankManager. It's the only way to charge li properly.. Don't trust your campers charger and definitely not your alternator. The BankManager will do it right. Check out this and see the manual for how to install it. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
@@Clarks-Adventure thanks for the very quick response. Well unfortunately the epoch has already arrived. I thought I did due diligence researching and they seemed to have great reviews by other you tubers. I guess I will need to investigate your recommendations. I am in process of drawing up the schematics of the trailer. I need to know where all wires go and where the solar input goes. Almost done with the under carriage, next to tear out the converter to see what wires are back there. I will look into the BBM tomorrow. I am not suggesting I am relying on the alternator of the truck. Conversely, I want to isolate it if possible in case the BMS shuts down. I was thinking either a disconnect of the LiFePO or keeping the LA in the circuit to act as a “shock absorber” in case such an event happens.
recently installed a lifepo4 battery 100ah in my campervan.it’s smart Bluetooth bms so can see power being consumed by my stereo x3 power amps ‘homemade sub fosgate driver plus kenwood speakers about 15amps on the bms app when wick turned up.I thought why don’t I use my spare agm battery.only new last year one one weak.as had a pair of 115ah arm’s.I know u not supposed to mix lead with lithium but thought could use the agm when stereo on by using a switch to kick in the agm battery.I’m using a separate circuit for agm charged by my old dc charger 12amp and some solar 100watt with epever 10amp mppt.The lifepo4 has victron dc charger 18amp Orion and a Renogy rover 20amp mppt from another 100watt panel..so if I link batteries with fused link and a switch by drivers seat what you reckon ?
I've learned a lot since I made this video. I've learned that mixed battery banks not get charged optimally. I've learned that no charge controller I've found charges lithium correctly even if it has a lithium setting. And I've found there was no commercial product that brings it all together. So I designed one. My recommendation for your system is install your AGM and take all charge sources and loads to it. Connect it to your engine lead battery with a cheap voltage sensitive relays. Connect your Li to your AGM with my BankManager (www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms) and you have a powerful system. You would never discharge your engine battery but you can charge it from solar or whatever automatically. Your system will use li first and then have your AGM available next. You will cycle your Li most often and only cycle your lead now and again. Your Li will be charged optimally for best life. There is even a special setting for car stereo guys where the li will be disconnected if too large of a load is demanded of it, like starting the engine. Is this the right way to go for you, possibly not due to cost. But I believe it would be the best. You will find these ideas described in other videos on our channel. I suggest you look at our playlists to help you. The li one and the electrical education series in particular.
Clark...... quick question.... somewhere in one of the videos or comments there was a mention of size of bank in amp hours between the Lead and lithium mentioning one should in reality be larger than the other. Do I remember that correctly? If so which one should be largest... Im remembering it being the LiPo4 bankshould be largest in amp hours.
If you use one of these it really doesn't matter. It will adapt to what you have. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms I mean I wouldn't actually use a motorcycle battery but in theory you could. The limit of the Lifepo4 is 2550ah per BankManagerPlus. But we'll, that's a lot.
@@Clarks-Adventure was asking more for comparative reasons of their system to others.... they said they had plenty juice for their needs at the 400amp hour lithium (at 12v) which then in comparison should be about same as someone with 24v lithium sized to 200ah.
Yep. That's actually a good chunk of power. On Temptress we have 1500ah of lead and 200 of li. Since the li was installed it "feels" like we have so much power.
If your device could communicate with the bluetooth messaging that many lithiums are now being shipped with, that would provide very accurate cut off points for the lithium charge amount. Because bluetooth equipped BMS devices show the state of each cell quite accurately. A bluetooth interface would also make your device more friendly to operate and many owners seem to be keen on bluetooth based interfaces. Good luck with your technology, it seems a great solution.
I have an development path that might lead to Bluetooth and better screen. I personally think this thing belongs out of sight just doing its job in the battery spaces but many people are mounting it visible. So new case is my next project. I need more space inside anyway for any upgrades.
Lithium chargers are well adapted to charge lithium batteries respecting the 3 phases charging cycles. Lead (older) battery chargers do not charge batteries very efficient, this solved by using modern chargers. Today intelligent alternators installed on modern cars do respect the state of the lead battery while charging them even though the main purpose of these intelligent alternators was for anti-pollution and fuel savings. Now the remaining and touching subject is to charge lead and lithium batteries together and prevent on battery to discharge to the other. The smartest way I found for alternator charging is a Victron cc/cc inverter that prevent batteries to be connected when they are not charging and control the charging current going to the lithium battery. Lithium batteries have very low internal resistance that do not vary during the charge while lead batteries have an internal resistor increasing with the charge: the battery control it’s charging current for the bulk phase. The problem lies with how to control the latest phases of the charge. I do this with 2 different solar circuits. All the best Jacques
Hi Clark, great work, thanks (goes for the AC too! Glad you also have an RV model that doesn't require salt water :) )! i am wondering if the BBMS+ works for my intended setup. i have two sets of solar panels, and want to hook them up to a LiFePO4 setup. i also already have an AGM that i'd like to combine with the lithium in this case. i'd be using two MPPTs so one set of panels doesn't diminish the other's potential. Will that work with the BBMS+? Will it accept two MPPTs to charge a lithium-lead acid bank?
Yes that would work fine. I designed the BankManagerPlus to really not care where the charge comes from. Best of the final voltage is below 14.6v. But that's what you likely want for your lead anyways as the lead will likely not be discharged. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
Hi Will, thank you for the information and advice. Would you connect a mix of gel and lifepo4 batteries for a residential home. 12v100ah or 12 v 200 ah. Which type would you connect directly to the ups.
Hi Clark, have you seen the Growatt inverter/Charger, I believe when you profile the batteries acid, AGM or LiFePo4, you set the voltage and then you can adjust on your smart phone once a week once a month to a new volt level, would that achieve what you have been explaining on this video. Hope this helps :-)
Nope. There is a lot to it but if any solution doesn't have a remote amp sensor measuring exactly what is really going into the lithium, they can't be doing it well. And that would be just the first step.
Would this work on an all lithium system? My current problem is my alternators have internal regulation and I can't stomach the price for "smart" regulators when they won't do anything smart. Currently I have disabled one by removing the belts. The other side I have been turning off the engine until we add more load, usually in the form of a loud ass dance party. I'm thinking of just restricting the output as alternator charging isn't usually necessary but I want to keep the option. I'm no electrical engineer and was hoping you may have a solution to keep the alternator from going above say 13.8v. Edit: I know there are some devices out there but I'm fairly certain some .78 cent resistor or something could accomplish the same job? Maybe?
It's difficult to do that with an internally regulated alternator. In my opinion the very best way to solve all this and the ONLY way currently available to properly, and safely charge you expensive lithium is with one of my BBMSs and a small lead battery. One of my design points was to make this work with any existing charging systems. I just finished development and have 35 boards here getting ready to ship out. I'll be doing a video announcing it soon. I suggest you either subscribe to this channel or fill out the survey (description of the AC video) to be kept informed. We also have a "dream believers" level on Patreon where you can call me for help on "whatever". People use this for engineering type help all the time.
@@Clarks-Adventure Been waiting months to get one of the BBMS's. Subscribed, surveyed and Patreon'ed to get updates. Are you saying that the video is the official announcement (not a email to the survey participants before hand)? Thanks.
I'm still waiting on the current sensors but once I'm sure about them ,(I've been lied to by suppliers before). I'll do a description video and announce how to place orders. Also the boxes are made in the US but they haven't taken my order yet. Patron's will get a boost.
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My wife says you and I are virtually twins in our ways of thinking and tinkering. I am so glad that you have been able to do so well implementing the charging system. Also taking to heart what we had originally discussed about topping out the lithium batteries so they would balance. Your new device with the hall effect sensor, might I suggest a few additions. You need to perhaps add a few modes to the system. Assuming you have some sort of clock function on your device, whether it be a small IOT device or a small computer such as a PI-Zero. You might want to have a cruising mode capacity (Auto higher capacity) based charging, and a storage based capacity system(Auto storage). Let me explain. If you are out cruising sometimes what can be a real issue is that you might forget to reset the BBMS+ to a higher capacity when the weather gets bad. Then you get caught with your pants down during a weather event and the solar doesn't have a lot of capacity. This can happen especially if you are out exploring and away from the boat. Now you can accomplish this typically in your technology by using either variables that are updated perhaps by the minute or hourly., or a database at the same frequencies. By utilizing this scheme the variables/database can be updated by the amount of (solar/charge source) is coming into the bank. Where I am going with this is that the system could detect when solar in particular is not performing well as a function of time of day and the amperage coming into the banks. It should keep track of the amount of time spent over the BMS balancing current and if the solar just isn't coming in like it should. If the system can keep track of baseline charging and can determine that on a historic basis that perhaps it is more cloudy than usual and to just let the air out of the charging capacity to take it as far as it will go. This can give a cruiser the opportunity to make sure that even when they aren't watching, the system will allow the lithium to spend enough time in a state that will balance,. Also if a weather front comes through it will just know and will adjust charging limits to allow for the system to provide a power capacity cushion to the operator. In any matter, you absolutely must have a method to allow for balancing even potentially if in storage. The problem with storage might be that there isn't a lot of typical load on the battery to discharge it enough to hit say 50% if charged initially to balancing current. Though typically batteries in storage will kinda stay at the cell balance they were stored at if they just really sit. You can also add a webpage internally to some of these devices. Let me tell you about my home cooling system. I have several linear actuators that open my windows to cool my home, combined with a whole house fan. There are multiple ESP32 boards that will engage a local main power supply to open and close a window based on the temperature sensors on the boards and what the main board tells it to do. The sensors are inside and outside off the ESP32 boards. These sensors update a Mysql database on a Raspberry Pi equivalent board. When the temperature goes below a certain threshold the main board knows this, logs the temps, and tells appropriate windows to open. Now the system might know that some windows have the sun shining on them and therefore might pull in heat instead of cool, so those stay shut. So that helps regulate temperatures. It will also play an audio file several times that allows my smart device to hear my voice and to turn on air conditioning when the windows are closed and the temps require it. I also have a webpage on that main board that I can change values and update times where it might rain and what the high and low temps are expected to be. (I am working on getting the system to pull the device's information from an external weather source.) Which you too might be able to do...Now keep in mind your device's capability, but if it is a small board computer just make sure that you have some way to update the devices if there is something you overlooked in the programming, and to offer support. Also your systems should have at least an ultra durable sd card, which could be your alternative update method. I think you want to be really careful about having percentage based options, that the users aren't smart enough to turn up to balance their lithium. You can make the percentage work with balancing if there is enough of a load to occasionally override the percentage to take the batteries to their balancing current at periodic intervals regardless of the user's desire.
Damn ! That is the longest single paragraph I have ever read and I didn't understand a word of it .
Me to haven't a clue but find it fascinating that we have so many intelligent people that buck the system and come up with ingenious solutions
To an extent the variability of solar is accounted for by the charging characteristics of LiFePO4 in that, if you use a voltage based cutoff, on a good solar day the current will push the voltage up and reach cutoff point at a lower capacity than on a low current day. I have a set point of 3.5v (14v) and on a good solar day, with my efficiency set at 96%, the batteries hit 100% within a fraction of an Ah of voltage induced cutoff. On a low solar day they will head towards 103% or thereabouts. An active balancer looks after the balance and 3.5v is far enough inside the ‘knee’ for it to be able to maintain balance.
@@philbrooke-little7082 This does work for you I am sure. My thing I am talking about is That there are a lot of different types of batteries out there, with different balancing characteristics. A voltage based cutoff set at 50 percent (25-75 percent SOC) which would hold it in a range to maintain a longer battery life, would never balance most of the Lifepo4 batteries out there. Even if they hit say 53 percent or a little more if they drift up during the day. Most manufacturers have Battery Management Systems that top balance (A charge typically above 94 percent)in a passive state. They don't have an active balancer. If the cells never balance eventually one will likely fail and render the battery inoperable, and possibly permanently damaged. A lot of people that buy lithium are completely unaware this process even takes place. They think that as long as it's plugged in it's good. So having a system that can be set up for a particular battery in a web setup or Bluetooth connected app would be very helpful. Since most manufacturers have documentation stating what the balance voltage should be. Also passive balancers don't move much current so it can take a long time to balance a battery. Having a bunch of schmucks set their battery banks at 50 percent for a year of constant use would destroy a whole lot of batteries. That is why I suggested that the system needs to take voltages up every once in a while to keep the batteries healthy regardless of the setting
I agree it could be beneficial to charge fully on occasion. I also realize this is a new technology so both of my devices, in their own way, have a configuration option to "fully" charge on an interval while set to a lower setting.
Contently once every 20 charge cycles for the BBMS and configurable for the BBMS+
Clark, have been wondering as I switch from WPMs to MPPTs this winter, how I'd manage this; perfect timing & really glad you've done the hard work for me. Please keep up the great videos
Awesome we finally got video on the bank manager !😁😁😁 its so cool cant wait till Bank manager+ im so excited this after finding your channel about year or so ago when you first talked about i was curious to see if there any products like this and i couldn't find anything so that make me even more excited for this
Bank Manager
That's Emily's work. She's the marketing person here. She did the icon for it as well.
@@Clarks-Adventure She's a keeper...
Thanks Clark for the video. Your explanation is easy to understand.
This always confused me, i thought I was missing something. Proper energy management is crucial for sailors on a low budget and tight space. Excellent.
The information you provided in the videos is awesome. Thank you!
You're welcome Esteban,
Please consider sharing links with friends.
The victron solar charge controllers have an adaptive absorption setting that will adjust absorption time based on the voltage before charging starts. I've seen it do very short absorption times, eg less than 10 minutes.
Ok champion, when they are ready let me know how to get one. Thanks mate.
If anyone is looking for my charge controller it's available at www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
R McK-please read my friend Conrad's link at the bottom. He describes it well, but in short Lifepo4 can be harmed by low current overcharge. It takes a couple of years to see the results but any voltage over 13.48 (for 12v) can be detrimental. I think this is the reason batteries do better when not charged to full by other charge controllers.
Also it can suffer from a memory effect if not charged to 100%. My device seems to charge to 100% safely.
To find the article I'm referring to take the link I sent you earlier. Read the bottom paragraph and you will find a link to Conrad's work.
I think you would at least have to read that before saying there are chargers that I know about that meet those requirements to charge Lifepo4.
Please take a moment to read that over.
Hi Emily and Clark.I’ve just stumbled on your video about mixing lead acid and lithium.As I have had trouble in my campervan Vw t4 for a while now watching my voltages dropping down with compressor fridge on 24/7 and my one of my agm ‘s has gone weak due to accidentally left an Earth lead off.I have 2 amplifiers in back one for the homemade subwoofer and other for the kenwood main speakers.I got the 2 kenwood Amos cheap off eBay 25£ .already had an alpine amp under front seat for my stereo..Anyway I do have solar panels a 100watt panel supplying an epever mppt plus another 100watt panel supplying a Renogy rover that has lifepo4 setting.also I have a dc to dc charger Victron that gets used as I drive to work and back everyday.So I can adjust Victron dc charger to lifepo4 setting for the new lifepo4 battery.I’m thinking now I can keep my one good agm battery 115ah.only bought last year.The other agm dropped down to 6v so think that weakened it.if I not gettin much solar after a day the fridge won’t run right comes up error with 12.4 volts not enough to run fridge,Shouldn’t have that problem with lifepo4 connected to fridge.I also have my old dc to dc charger connected in parallel with Victron.Now was thinking I can keep one agm to be charged from my spare dc charger on a separate circuit from lifepo4 for now as not sure on mixing them .Have to see how things go.thanks .Steve in uk
You sure can. It's your gear and you could do anything.
But I wouldn't recommend it. Set yourself up much more simply as described here. I think you will be happier. All those "lithium" chargers aren't charging your Lifepo4 the way it should be charged.
ua-cam.com/video/XDLK5CuGQPo/v-deo.html
Subscribed..good timing for me as I am attempting to combine my AGMs and my Lifepo4 Batteries in my Sprinter van..thanks! WG7D
Excellent
Outstanding. I was just about to ask most of the questions this video answers. Perhaps more importantly, the video also answers questions that I didn't know enough to ask.
Thanks Mark
Great ideas Something to think about when dealing with boat batteries
Excellent video, thanks for sharing your knowledge on this subject.
I never thought I'd learn how to charge my lithium batteries for my car audio from a guy in a boat. Thanks for this.
Thanks. Please consider buying one of my BBMSs.
BBMS - Lithium and Lead: ua-cam.com/play/PLsT7_jPsZM5pApg5I7EPtLd15qXSqZn2U.html
I think it will serve you well and protect your lithium investment.
@@Clarks-Adventure thanks for this. I'm just getting my feet wet with lithium. I'm doing my research on how to keep everything charged on my stock electrical while keeping my lead battery, while keeping everything charged off the 12v system. Most of the time in car audio you just remove the lead battery and replace it with a distribution block. Then charge the lithium as needed. I think that's how it works anyways lol
With the bbms you can just forget it. Let the car alternator do the charging.
Only issue would be possible overheating if the alternator, but with your loads shouldn't be an issue I expect.
I personally wouldn't have a system I had to manually charge.
Same here, plan to install four 100ah lithium batteries for my system. Trying to figure out how to configure it with this device.
Hi there Emily and Clark,
Enjoyed this video very much. This is the kind of technical information that is difficult to find.
If you are looking for features to add to your plus+plus model, please consider when all batteries are fully charged switching solar/wind power into domestic hot water tank up to a managed high temperature. I understand hot water is nice but not so necessary in the Caribbean. I am sure you could make this feature intelligent enough to switch back to house needs as required.
I spent a couple of years on a boat in the Caribbean recently. I sure didn’t like dumping solar power when I had fully charged batteries in the early afternoon.
This can be easily done with most solar regulators and I relay I believe.
We use propane hot water.
@@Clarks-Adventure I have this setup on my previous Camper which was all Lead-Acid (645AH @12V bank) which was an all-electric setup (no propane); and also the current RV with the Lithium-Lead Hybrid.
I have a low-power relay that is controlled by the Battery State of Charge and when it got to a high level, the Relay would activate, turn on a AC SSR (Solid State Relay) which turns on the Hot Water Boiler, so any excess energy from the Solar would go towards heating the Water Store. You can use the same principle to run a mutli-way Fridge (12V/AC/Propane) fridge on "free" electricity instead of expensive Propane as well of course.
On the RV, I have the relay setup so it activates not only on battery State of Charge but also if Shore Power is detected, as Shore Power hookup use is often free after paying a set per-day charge (at least in the UK) for the provision so may as well use it as much as possible instead of your own Propane :)
The advantage of using a separate relay and SSR is that it is more flexible and is controller agnostic so you can use whatever model/brand you like and still have those features.
Thank you, this is very interesting.
Excellent presentation. The only video I've found that propertly recognises that charging batteries in static, ideal conditions just does'nt exist. Switching appliance off and on, clouds drifting by, etc,etc..makes a bit of a nonsese of the multi stage charging claims. You have done a lot of great work here.
Thank you.
Have you looked into this?
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
It's my take on how to charge li properly. I call special attention to the essay by Conrad linked to the bottom.
good poop. thank you for doing the research for us, and sharing it.
Geez Calrk - so glad I found your channel - great stuff - you solve my problems so much. I want a BBMS Plus. Need to sort out my charging systems and add some lithium then get one. Thanks man..Power to you guys.. much appreciated - Dirk
Thanks Dirk
If you haven't seen it already the manual for the bank might help you plan.
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
Also we are down to only a few left and I really have no idea when I'll get more
China screwed up the last batch!
My main tip with lithium is make sure you have the charge voltage correct This guy seems knowledgeable good vid
There are devices that join two different battery chemistries for charging for $45
There are devices that will connect different chemistry batteries that cost under a dollar.
It's called a wire.
But it isn't safe for your boat or your batteries.
It works awesome. I tested on my system. One other advantage is the solar is not disconected when the Lithium battery BMS kick out.
Hi Dan,
Glad it's working for you. But using your BMS to end charging is not a good idea.
This is how I'm recommending it be done now. This device is the only way I've seen to not overcharge your Li.
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
A system that's easy to change how much you want to charge them, this some tasty stuff right there 😁
We just got the shipment of contactors in this week so all the parts are in stock if you want one.
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
Hello! I’m very interested in the system your working on. Please put me down as a buyer. 😁 Cant wait for the next video on this. Thank you, and have a wonderful & safe day. Cheers, Dani
Only way to get "on the list" is to fill out the survey.
This sounds fantastic for my narrowboat would love to try your plus when you have it on the market
The Gen3 is coming probably next month
More features but will cost a bit more.
The "plus" is now called the Gen2 and it's available now.
Lots of them in narrow boats. But I'd like to see more of course so once you have it running please tell your friends.
David @wildebus, and I are members of the same UK camper (RV?) group. I have asked him to fit a 100ah lithium battery into my existing 345ah (3x115 Leoch lead carbon acid ) battery bank.
1, Because I'm trying to wean the van off of lpg as much as possible. Cooking electric/heating diesel
2, Taking high amperage from the batteries during low sun is difficult to replace by solar.
3, Being parked at meet ups for 5 or 6 days will take the LCA batteries well below 40% SOC.
Driving replaces the charge via a Ctek + Smartpass. Solar is 350w via Victron 100/30.
The hold up is
1, He is on vacation.
2, He is waiting for a relay to be tested to restrict the overcharging, you mention in your video.
Yes, I think we talked about your install.
I know David does magic with setting up his victrons gear but this might be another way to go.
The Relay that I will be fitting is a specially adapted (to my specifications) High-Current (200A) Latching Relay - this means it can handle any possible currents that the system can be called on to deliver, and the current overhead is nominal, being a latching unit.
The VSDR Lithium Controller, as I call it, is simplier than Clarks BBMS but I think it will be a good option if used in conjunction with a Lithium Battery with a good quality BMS (I think the BBMS will offer more flexibility on the choice of Lithium Batteries, but the battery we are going for is very capable and can handle 500A surges and 150A constant currents, so the possible current surge on voltage equalisation on reconnection into the Lead Bank should have no issues that need to be managed). I can do that manually with my Isolation 1,2,1+2 switch and have no issues when checked the concept, but automation is the required way to go.
IF you have certain batteries, such as the Lithium battery discussed and Lead-Carbons, PLUS charging kit that can be finely configured (like the Victron kit and Ablemail charger I have), THEN you can pretty well get away without either the VSDR or the BBMS - but having the extra controller does give you greater choice in both Chargers and Batteries.
(Back home now after 400 Mile back home today ;) )
Does your approach handle charging at really low C rates? Batteries can overcharge at low voltage.
I found a 210amp bistable relay made by a major japanese manufacturer for $25us in bulk. It's what I'm using.
The lithium batteries we are using do not have a problem with charge rates whether high OR low due to their BMS design.
The relay I will be using is a programmable relay with microprocessor and optional Bluetooth interface (so a little bit more than a 'relay' relay I guess ;) ). You are controlling how your relay works via the programme in your BBMS; I am controlling my relay by programming the actual relay.
Balmar alternator regulators can be set to check the batteries after as short as 6 or 10 minutes (I forget which) so they aren’t being subjected to the high charge for 2 hours. I did this for our flooded batteries because ours were fully charged when going for a day sail after being on shore power.
Yes, I am very interested in this project. I have always thought that the tools of optimization are great for people who are really interested to understand the complexity of a system and operate it with conscious effort. I really like your described option to optimize with weather forecasts in such a way as to only max the charge level when forecast calls for it. Likewise for any situation where the battery becomes mission critical and the mission has some dimension involving above-normal variance (risk).
Thanks Pete,
Did you fill out the survey?
Great info.
Great Video. I am very interested in the development of this battery system. I look forward to the release of your product.
I hope you can ship these to the UK soon. There is a thriving RV and boating market here.
There is this www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms along with reship.com now. Once we get our CE certification we might try to find a UK rep.
Thanks for sharing. I haven't looked at your tech yet, but did watch your entire post. The fact that you addressed boiling, but not hydrogen bubbles and bloating is an issue for me. Lead batteries swell and deteriorate when they are overheated, yes. They also accumulate hydrogen resistance, which you completely bypassed in your psynopis.
When you are ready to look at the BankManager this link could help.
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
@@Clarks-Adventure Thanks! I'm not dissing your solution. As a bluewater sailboat guy and an RV guy, I'm just pointing out what we're (or at least I) are looking for. I get that you have to protect your patent, but you should address real battery charging issues, not just hyperbole. If your solution includes lead/acid batteries, but does not address hydrogen bubbles or bloating, it's not A solution, IMO.
My solution is only about protecting the fragile Lifepo4. The existing charge controllers do a decent job with the lead.
I've been living off grid for over 30 years. I tend to get 10 to 15 years out of my lead (big bank shallow discharge)
The problem now is the "lithium" setting on virtually every charge controller damages Lifepo4. And it's crazy expensive to replace all your charge controllers.
My approach addresses this and a few other issues.
It should make both banks last a long time.
What could be done to address this h2 issue you bring up?
Excellent design. On my boat I use a BMO, a Battery Management Officer :-)
Sounds like an exhausting and thankless job
I'd like yours ideas , 👍👍👍
Thank you,
This is how we are doing it now.
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
Davey & Erika (in Luperon, Barefoot Sail & Dive) just did a video about their power situation too, you could give them a literal boost im sure Clark!
wish someone would show vid showing the actual connections, how they connect them
These might help
ua-cam.com/video/sSfzt1_0AKk/v-deo.htmlsi=wBP1kCXqZ34xZ417
ua-cam.com/video/995_X1maNnw/v-deo.htmlsi=sW3VbXpTFy3zuKtt
But the manual shows the process
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms/manual
love the dinghy!
You are obviously a smart man..... I'm learning about lithium for my camper now, time to replace the lead acid battery. Only using one battery thinking about the lithium....My converter/charger is not for lithium..... 2013 camper....
Thank you.
I'm currently editing a video all about putting li in my camper with the BankManager just now.
It will be on Patreon in a day or so if you can spare 5 bucks. I think you might find it helpful
Sounds great
now for the 2 types being joined you have it nailed. I will order one for my RV. I have both types of batteries and I see where my normal house bank battery could get over charged
Woops ignore my last response. I see you already know about it.
I have 60 boards on the boat now. Once I get them soldered up o and tested that batch will be ready to ship out.
Thanks Clark. This is intriguing and something I would be interested in doing on my boat once we get back to Luperon in November.
Thank you! Amazing good job!
Thanks,
Here is how we are doing it now.
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
@@Clarks-Adventure Thank you kindly Sir!
Clark, thanks for the videos.
I am very interested in your device, the BBMS plus. Please inform me as soon as the device is available on the market.
I already found your last year's video "Adding lithium to your lead battery bank" interesting and inspiring. However, I mainly charge my battery system via the generator while driving with the engine and during the night in the harbour with mains power and an intelligent battery charger.
That's why your solution from last week's new video "Best way to charge lithium - mix it with lead" is for me the key to a hybrid battery system consisting of LifePo4 and lead-acid batteries.
I use most of the power during the day while sailing: in addition to the refrigerator, various navigation devices and the autopilot are running.
I look forward to further information and solutions.
Best way to stay informed is to fill in the survey.
@@Clarks-Adventure Hey Clark. Filled out the survey for interest in both the AC and BBMS (same form). Would you like to email us all a periodic update on the progress of both projects? I'm trying to wait for your solution. However as supply chains fall apart I need to gear up and provision now in anticipation of shortages. Thanks.
I understand. I'm having my own supply chain issues.
Great video
Thanks
We’re so lucky to have you! Great mind , great ideas 💡! Thank you so much 👍
In addition to disconnecting the lithium when charging, wouldn't it be beneficial to do the same to the lead when discharging? That way once the lead bank drops to a selectable percentage (likely 40%-50%) the system would disconnect the lead bank allowing you to continue drawing down the lithium without over discharging the lead.
The way the Hybrid setup works, the lithium is always used first. By the time the lead is noticeably discharged (anywhere from below 90% say), the Lithium is just about as low as you want to take it, so no that would not be a good plan IMO.
What he said.
It's just kinda magic on the discharge end. It's the charge end that needs help.
Li and lead in parallel will discharge the li mostly before the current starts coming from the lead. Then the lead protects the lithium from over discharging.
Also it seems that a really large load on the lithium causes it to slump in voltage which allows the lead to help out.
Kinda perfect except for the charging.
I’ve worked on car batteries (Mercedes EQS) and built small solar battery projects: this is aligned with everything I know about the topic.
I am not on top of alternator charging but I can say that the scenario where your diodes die when the Li-Ion battery shuts off is just not acceptable: there should be a way to protect the alternator. I also think that there should be an alternator dedicated for this task so that the primary one is kept safe.
What you describe as a BMS is a BPC - battery protection circuit. A BMS communicates and issues commands to the system it is connected to.
Victron’s standard defines:
- CVL Charge Voltage Limit
- CCL Charge Current Limit
- DCL Discharge Current Limit
While I’m not familiar with your theory that charge voltage must change based on charge current - if the battery manufacturer wanted that, they could adjust the parameters easily using the above.
Ie. If charge current was high, they could raise the charge voltage to match. If the current dropped, they could drop the voltage to match.
I’d love to see some literature about the relationship between charge current and voltage as you describe.
What you described can happen when you are plugged into the mains or running a generator to charge an unloaded battery.
But in the real world with wattage changing and random loads coming on it's a lot harder.
I'd start your research with Conrads paper at the bottom of this page. He gives links to follow for more information.
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
As loads come on and off during charging, the wattage changes equate to the DC bus being discharged to some extent while simultaneously being charged.
If the charge exceeds the discharge then the balance is the charge current - and in that moment your applicable charge voltage could apply.
So, a control look that monitors the charge current and adjusts the voltage to match would achieve what you’re talking about whether it was on a generator, a house, an RV or a boat.
What matters not is the source of charge but the balance that is making it to the battery.
Thanks for the steer. I will read Conrad’s paper.
Yes that's basically what the BankManager does.
Though down that path live dragons. As they so often do in engineering. It seems straight forward but the actual implementation was somewhat more complicated.
It was an interesting problem to solve...
Cant wait for the release. Can we buy the standard one in the mean time
It will be offered first I suspect but the software on the BBMS+ is coming along very well.
How does the BBMS (or any other, for that matter) look at individual cells within a given battery?
The BBMS can't see individual cell voltages. That's the job of the BMS. They have different responsibilities.
Another great video Thanks. I was just reading on the Grenada Cruising Information group on FB about a overheating concern of their batteries while on the hard. …. Some say to cool them with a small 12v computer fan…while others fear it won’t be enough given the 40°C+ inside the cabin…. What’s your take on not starting a fire with Li. I’m guessing your Bank Manager doesn’t allow for overheating, certainly not at 75% of charge
I've really never heard of a Lifepo4 burning. Li-on yes, they have no place on a boat unless they are tiny.
I'd like to know more. How hot? C rate at the time, in or out? Li being low resistance shouldn't get as hot as lead.
Does the bank manager has a temperature input to monitor the high and low temperatures of the lithium as well as auxiliary charge function where once the banks are full, the excess power can go straight to water heating or refigeration?
No the temperature monitoring is a BMS thing.
Shunting power is already done by most solar regulators. So not in this release.
Clark...good deal on your BBMS w/ hall effect current sensor....most only use voltage sensing. Nice concept of using advantages of both battery systems on one platform. Nice circuit board design. Have you talked to anybody on mass production...with patent pend in hand?
Thanks Mark.
Having trouble finding someone in the US who can do simple soldering.
@@Clarks-Adventure Probably because all circuit boards are non-repairable double-sided surface chips. I don't see the video gamer generation ever picking up a soldering gun-iron...they don't even own one in their house. I don't own a suction ball but I have lots of experience with gently hitting to shake off the molten solder when removing components.
I use China for 99%. Their machine can't do thru hole parts. I need the screw terminals soldered on. Easy right?
Great video brother thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise I will put this into practice I am a new subscriber and I cannot wait to see your other videos
We just started testing in the bbms+. Looking good.
i would like one on these bbms for sure
Great. Follow the link and fill out the form.
Dear Clark, thank you for detail video. I kust want to learn which bbms we have to use after mppt to two different type of battery system
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
The BankManager works with any charge source that can charge lead batteries.
If by two types of batteries you mean lead and LiFePO4 that's what this is for. If you mean lead and two different (manufacturer or age) Li banks you would need two BankManagers
Great videos. Doing a complete rebuild of our F&C44. Looking forward to news on your BBMS+ as have just inherited 700 ah of AGM batteries and considering adding some Li batteries to the mix on our 12V system. Also inherited a 24 V 1500W windlass that I would like to use so looking for ways to mix everything.
You will find this weekends videos interesting!
Great information. If you use Midnite Solar charge controller with their shunt (whizzbang junior) you can define the ending amps that will stop the charge cycle.
That's fine for lead but it's simply not enough for li
Great video!
Thank you will
I've seen many liveaboards have 100% Lithium, some still have 100% AGM, and a few have a mix of the two. What do you think would be optimal for battery types? Is it that a Lead Acid starter battery is more efficient or easier than Lithium? There are for sure so many options that it's not necessarily easy to answer. I would guess it's more practical for most liveaboards to have a mix for many reasons. Clark your ideas about this are really brilliant.
The beauty of this is you can use what you have. So what you have now plus Li is the best answer.
If I was starting from scratch I'd have to look long and hard at this new lead carbon battery for the Pb side. My AGMs are probably the next best choice.
Clark,as always love your thinking.l am entertaining lithium on 30 ft boat running mainly fridge/phones/lights/nab instruments
Was thinking of 2x70 or 2x100 amp lithium ,but am now thinking 1 lithium and 1 acid maybe making the acid a bigger amp hour than the lithium ,not expecting any advice or endorsement of/on my plan but just an expression of appreciation on how you think outside the box and thoroughly work stuff through when you share it
Thank you
I expect you have seen these right?
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
I am reading up on it now Clark,thank you .Just completed your (great !) survey
If you want one there is an order form on the link I sent you. I think my distributor is currently out. But I have some more boards here that I hope to finish up real soon. And if course you won't be invoiced until we are ready to ship.
Hey Clark . Will these handle the initial joining of the lead & lithium or is the other balancing procedure still going to be required ? Thanks
This device knows how to safely connect Li and Pb. It does it every day so it needs to.
Just install it properly and turn it on.
No promises as this is experimental but Temptress hasn't burned down in the months this has been on the job.
That was the very first trick I taught this device!
Quality content.
Thank you
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
Some sort of adjustable warning light set to light up when the batteries are approaching the off/critical stage could be handy.
Do you mean near fully discharged?
Both fully discharged and fully charged
For fully discharged you can easily find those. If you go hybrid just use a lead alarm as you will be held in the lead range when approaching low state of charge. If you weren't hybrid this is a difficult problem. With hybrid there are lots of very cheap options. See RV sources.
For nearly full. No need. My BBMS takes care of the disconnect virtually every day and you won't even know it happened.
@@Clarks-Adventure tanks cobber. (Friend)
Hi,
Interesting subject.
I'm curious about more detailed information like detailed information about the working principle, integration in existing setup.
Cheers,
Pascal
Coming. I'm finishing up the development. Honestly that is taking up most of my days lately. I'm in a hurry because a Patreon patron is flying in later this month to pick one up. They REALLY want one! I have base function working but really want to give them at least a Frankenstein's monster version of the plus version.
Hi Clark, loved the info on the BBMS unit! What is the minimum full-charge voltage held by an older lead individual battery to work OK?
Eg. in a bank of lead batteries, if one battery at 97% charge only delivered say 12.7 volts (or less) could this still work OK? I'm guessing it would mean the lithium works until almost fully discharged.
What settings in the BBMS+ unit might help to get around / optimise this?
Hi Greg. This approach is best done with really healthy lead but if yours are a bit old it just means you would loose more power overnight.
I go into this in detail in the first "lead and li" video I did.
ua-cam.com/video/tAuPfgZgXec/v-deo.html
There are three videos on this topic so far that you might enjoy.
@@Clarks-Adventure Yeah have seen it, a great intro. Amp flow x hours.
Would you recommend BBMS(+) with manual intervention, let's say overnight? Please share some benefits of the system.
(Manual disconnection of lead at times, with resistor re-connection later.)
Once re-connected, the system would charge as normal, with lithium disconnecting automatically at higher voltage.
There is a bbms video coming soon. Once they are ready to order.
With either a BBMS or a BBMS plus installed no manual intervention bis required. You could even equalize your lead and the lithium would be fine.
For BBMS Plus Pro - RS485 please. Then I can use that with some basic weather forecasting API to automatically tell the Bank Manager Plus Pro to charge the Lithium to a higher level without waking up the next day and kicking myself because it's gonna rain all day and I forgot to adjust it beforehand. I'm surrounded by paddocks not water, so it's a bit easier to know what location to get weather data for tho.
Since I made that video t really refined my charging algorithm. I now recommend you set the BBMS Plus to charge to 100%. It is really good at not overcharging and with charging to full you don't develope a memory effect.
I now feel that's the best setting and what I use myself.
Hi Clark, great info. Glade to see you’re so honest I’m presently looking at Lithium to simplify my life. Have you seen Life Power 4 new EG4 batteries, not sure about marine use, but they seem incredible??
I really think all the Lifepo4 cells are either matched or not. Doesn't matter what reseller puts their name on them. They are all made in China.
Getting a matched set of cells makes a difference though.
ua-cam.com/play/PLsT7_jPsZM5pApg5I7EPtLd15qXSqZn2U.html
In the hot Texas summer lead-acid automotive batteries last 2 to 4 years nominally. I am getting at least 8 to 13 plus years on my lead-acid batteries by charging them every weekend...with a frequency driven desulfate charger. When the green LED light comes "on" showing 100% battery status i unplug the charger. Charger is called: Xtreme Charge, 12volt maintenance charger, Model XC100.
Hey, as an engineer I thought it might be a gimmick...but that's the entire key to lead...desulfating the plates back to new....so you don't GROW those lead fissures that short-out plates or have sulfide oxidation that degrades the fully charged battery down to 12.4v in 4 years versus keeping it at 13.2v .
I've been using the XC100 charger for about 10 years. One of my older batteries was 8 years old when i started charging. It was starting to have reduced power issues...and this charger keep it going until 13 years when it finally died during a summer heat. All my batteries are old...all keep the 13.2v fully charged.
My next gameplan is just to pull out 8 year old batteries and replace them. Years ago... I actually used to do preventative battery maintenance on my wife's car and just replace the battery every 3 years. Not anymore...8 years is the new 3 years.
The XC-100 shutsdown automatically once 100% charge is reached. I don't think it's checking for amperage being accepted into battery for determining shutdown; rather i believe the XC-100 takes a voltage reading and then shunts across the battery (resistance). Every 30 seconds it shunts and goes out and rechecks the voltage for how much it dropped...if it doesn't drop by a small margin (value-%)....battery status goes from 75%% charged to 100% charged and shutdown charging automatically, else it repeats it frequency desulfating charging operation. The XC-100 also does a 12 hour charge test and will tell you if you battery is BAD. Has no connection operation light too.
Sounds a bit like a marine Flexcharge. A good friend really likes his.
Hello Clark, interesting to listen to your tips. I have an Yanmar engine, with 180A dynamo. I have my boat batteries 3x110 Ah Li, and 2x90 Ah AGM batteries for thrusters, and 2x90 Ah AGM for startmotor. Te batteries are connected togehter with a Victron Argofet unit. The dynamo har an internal regulator of 14,0 V. I have battery monitor (Victron) for the Li batts. When I start the engine and the batteries are typical 50-60% after 2-3 nights without charging ( The AGM batteries are typical 12,5 - 12,6 V). The A is quickly raising to 90-110 A (mesured directly from the dynamo), but after 4-5 minutes the Amps reduce to typical 50-60 A, and V are climbing gradualy to about 13,7 V. All 3 battery banks will now have the same voltage. Now the Amps continue to fall to 40, then about 20 Amps, until the votage is close to14,0V, and no current is going to the Li batteries any more. The battery monitor now typical shows the batteries are at about 70%. I have to drive the eninge for many hours (5-6) to reach 98%. If the trip is shorter, I have less battery capacity for every day.
Do you have any comments to my system, and any tips for the dynamo to give more Amps ?
Modify your alternator to use an external regulator ua-cam.com/video/X4_OoCA8TjY/v-deo.html
And use a BankManager.
The difference will surprise you.
Also depending on where you are solar might be a good idea.
@@Clarks-Adventure I only have a small solar panel, 120 w, that I use for charge the Li batts, and put the "load" from the solar regulator to my thruster-batterybank. I live in Norway, so not so much solar power in winter time.
So normally this panel take care of these banks. The issue is when I stay out for many days without shore connection and want to fill up my Li batteries quicker.
I have may be two options: External regulator or a new internal regulator rated to 14,4V.
I don't know your BankManager, is it on the market?
Sure. We have sold over 500 of them.
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
@@Clarks-Adventure where does the power from alternator comes in?
With a BankManager hybrid battery installation all charge power goes to the lead and the BankManager steals it until the li is full.
I suggested the video above because in that video I show how to convert your alternator to external regulation for no cost. You will not get a fast charge rate at 14v and you need a regulator that goes into float if you are going to charge fast as long fast charge will hurt lead batteries.
Without a BankManager 14v sustained will greatly shorten the life of your LiFePO4
Great post Clark. Looking forward to acquiring my own samples of your tech when I get my own boat 💖😇
Perhaps you could add a feature to increase the SOC on a regular schedule to provide top balance without having to manually do it. This would be a kin to the equalization program of some chargers for lead
Very observant.
That's an important feature. The BBMS has an option to do that once every 20 days. The BBMS+ will be more configurable but do the same kind of thing.
@@Clarks-Adventure perhaps the trigger could be based on some measure of cycling rather than calendar. Perhaps a sum of amp hours charge and or discharge. In my case my boat sits on a mooring for a week or two with little power use and then may see heavy use cruising for a few weeks.
I have a sort of hybrid system on my boat. The alternator is wired to a lead acid start bank. That is the only charging for that bank. Keeping the lead acid start battery directly connected to the alternator protects the alternator (i.e., the alternator can not be disconnected from the batteries by the lithium BMS). My house bank is lithium iron phosphate. The lithium batteries have two charging sources. First my solar array is connected to the lithium battery bank via a Victron SmartSolar charge controller which is programmed to shut off charging when the batteries reach 14.2 volts. Second I have a Victron Orion Smart isolated DC:DC battery charger between the lead acid start bank and the lithium house bank. The DC:DC charger uses the same charging profile as the Victron solar controller. The DC:DC charger is also set up so that it only provides charge to the lithium bank when the engine is running. It stops charging when the engine is shut off. It also has an on/off switch so I can leave it off. The DC:D charger is also sized so that I can safely charge the lithium bank from the alternator even when the engine is running at idle speed. With this system the two battery banks are never directly connected, but I have no issue with having adequate cranking amps to start the engine and my alternator is protected from being pushed to maximum output by a depleted lithium battery bank. The system works very well.
Here is another way to go. It has some advantages:
It can charge your Li with the full power from your alternator.
It cannot overcharge your Li. The victrons can and do.
It allows your lead to be available after the lithium is depleted this way the lead supports the li form over discharging.
There is no inefficientcy from dc-dc chargers.
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
It's another way to go. I'm biased at course but I find it best.
I just built two banks, Lead acid that will be supplemented with grid power from my LifePO4 bank. All new battery's, eventually i will phase out lead acid. Just too heavy to deal with, I do like how they will work in freezing weather as long as they have a charge. So i will be making the lead acid work, let them discharge a bit and them top them off with grid power from the LifePO4 bank. This is in a tow behind camper.
You might get a kick out of this, I have brought my 400ah bank of LifePO4 charge time down to 3 hours flat. At first i only had a 4 amp charger from costco, It would of taken me all week to charge 400ah once with that charger. I now have Four 35 amp chargers that i have wired in parallel a total of 140 amps of charging current. That is a 35x improvement over my 4 amp charger.
So i have turned a week of generator Run time into just 3 short hours. I do have solar, this is just to supplement solar charging in the most efficient way possible to cut down on generator run time. In the winter if i have to run my generator too much i will run out of fuel and have some really cold nights ahead.
140 amps is only slightly above the recommended 100-120amp charge rate for the size bank i have. By the end of the charging cycle the chargers taper off close to 120 amps. I am still fine tuning the system, found my kill switch's are creating some resistance in the system, going to up size the awg to see if it solves the issue.
Glad you liked the video.
It's kinda old. Everything is still correct but this is how I do it now www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
Clark I have looked for the awning video you referenced in one of your previous videos. Did you make it or are you planing to do it?
What timing you have. I just took a break from editing it. Expect it soon.
-C
This would have been awesome as an open source project, I'd love to work on it.
It's nearly done
How does this work if I have two lead banks, one start and one house. I want to add lithium to the house bank.
My selector switch allows me to connect both start and house.
I think i should add a voltage sensitive relay in parallel with the selector switch and NEVER switch it to all. OR, make the start bank fully separate save for the VSR. What do you think?
Hook them up like this
ua-cam.com/video/Xp6ssk4Guuc/v-deo.html
What you commented on is a very old video. I've come up with a much better way to do this. Only way to charge your Li correctly.
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
So a feature you should consider adding is to satisfy the new ABYC recommendation under TE-13.5.6 "If a shutdown condition is approaching, a BMS should notify the operator with a visual and/or audible alarm prior to disconnecting the battery from the DC system." If that feature were included and your system could operate either with or without lead, you would have a much larger market since the majority of drop-in lithium solutions do not have a BMS that communicates over CANBUS or other protocols to external devices.
I understand.
But my system simply can't operate without another reliable battery. Therefore I never disconnect power, only re-route it.
Thanks.
This is really exciting that your are coming out with solutions for the cruising community!!! How about sourcing 12v fans like the Caframo that are reliable and efficient and not ridiculously priced for how long they last?
Their new "most expensive" fans actually seem to last. Shirocco II.
After what I'm going through just now with supply chain. NO WAY!
I like development. Hate the business side of it.
PCs are 12V as well so i dont know what counts as Pricey but 140mm diameter fans can go for as little as 6€
@@Clarks-Adventure woW... $109 Amazon and West Marine.... yuk
But worth it. Quiet. Low power. Nice.
how would this relate to mixing AGM batteries with lithium in a competition car audio environment?
Lithium can really move the amps up to the limit of it's BMS. Put a big enough BMS on your cells any you should see much flatter voltage from lithium. Nice steady 13s with high current draw.
I'd think you guys would also benefit from some super caps to handle the transient loads from moving the woofer coils.
The two together would be my starting point.
Easiest and safest way to put li in a car would probably be to leave the lead starter battery there and add Lifepo4.
How many amps average does one of these sound systems draw?
I really need some help... I want this module, but I can't seem to even get my flooded bank to jive with my lithium at all to even consider buying the module. I put them together and ran it just to see what happens, and just like you said, the lithium takes the load and the flooded were giving 1A max the whole night, then when the amps went to 2A from the flooded, the voltage was all the way down to 48v and I was scared of letting my lithium batteries go down any lower... The stinking flooded batteries still weren't carrying any load at all. So if I buy the module, would I have to have 2 solenoids to turn on and off BOTH banks? I was thinking you would just regulate ONE of the banks to cut off the soak of the lithium once it needed to top off the bank and the lithium was full. Should I let it run lower than 48v to get the flooded batteries to start carrying the load??
I'm assuming a 48 volt installation.
Your lead should be supplying power once your combined system voltage goes below 51.2. once you get down to 48v most of the power should be coming from the lead.
You are right, you need to get this sorted before you get a BankManager.
Over comments I really can't analyze it properly but some ideas.
If your lead is old and sick this could happen.
If you have a high resistance in your system this might look like it's happening but if you measure voltage from the lead terminals it will verify that.
Assuming you are running a BMS you should be protected from undercharge. That isn't really a problem until about 40v. But no need to go that low.
I do have a sort of consulting service on Patreon. People who sign up for the Dream Believers tier get phone calls with us. If you can't get this sorted on your own I'm confident we can work it out together.
@@Clarks-Adventure amazing! I'll sign up when I get a few more tests done and still need help. I love this idea BTW. My only problem is having to buy lots more expensive large cables for my whole home system before even knowing if this is going to work out. I would love to be able to use my golf cart batteries in the winter for this instead of just letting them sit around.
Great Dustin,
Looking forward to talking with you.
The manuals for the BankManager are available on the order page so you can see wiring diagrams and such.
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
@@Clarks-Adventure I don't think it will work with that charging profile... maybe there's some sort of way to work it out... but once all of the load is on my 48v flooded bank, I could have upwards of 120A at times loaded all on the flooded. If they would work WITH the lithium packs, it would be ok and spread out, but putting all that current on the flooded batteries at the end of the cycle, doesn't seem safe. I don't think Trojan T-125 batteries are meant to handle that much of a load.
You have to do what you are comfortable with of course.
If you don't fully deplete your Li you will never draw everything from the lead.
With the BankManager you do need some lead but not much to just make it work. The lead is there to mellow out the charging source after the li disconnects. And only to produce power after the li is basically dead anyway.
The big advantage is the BankManager protects your Li from low current overcharge (read the comment by Conrad linked to the bottom of that page)
I'm currently setting up a 36v Duffy electric boat for a friend. It's powered by li but I needed lead to allow my system to work. Going to install three 7ah 12v AGMs. They will be protected to 15a with an auto reset circuit breaker.
The idea is to never actually run the boat on them but if you lose power you can wait a bit and with very conservative throttle settings you can get to shore.
You could consider something similar.
Fancy solar chargers have an optional setting called End Amps. The Absorb cycle will end early if the programmed End Amps amount is met.
Yes, you are right. They all should. This is important for lead but I don't believe that is enough to keep lithium healthy.
I had a "quad cycle" charge controller I bought back in the 90s that had this. Best one I have personally used.
Which charge controllers have this now?
@@Clarks-Adventure the larger controllers I deal with have End Amps, like Outback FM80 & FM60, MidNite Classic series and Schnieder MPPT-150-60, etc. Also Victron SmartSolar controllers have it and it is called Adaptive Absorption and End Amps is called Tail Current. This is an interesting concept to mix AGM with Lithium. I’ll have to give this a lot more thought.
Thanks. I appreciate the information.
Have you seen this? www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
So far it's the best description of my approach so far. I really need to do a low technical "sales" video on this device but so far I'm unable to keep up with demand as it is.
There is a link to the manuals on this page. Please take a look, you seem to be knowledgeable.
Hi this is exactly what im looking for, have decent LA and only want to add additional LI capacity. How would you make this work with Hyrdo & Wind generator and a solar panel? Assume I still need a DCDC charger to protect my alternator?
No dc-dc. I really don't like them.
This is an old video. This is how I recommend doing it now. It automates everything and, most importantly, solves the low current overcharge issue (see Conrad's article linked at the bottom of the page).
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
I address alternator issues and other things in recent videos. I suggest you look through our back video catalog on this subject.
I'm sure Rick Moore is climbing the walls wit this. He's put so much in to standardized equipment that a mod to all that would be mind boggling for him perhaps. I'm just switching to a hybrid system and found this to be very enlightening. The more technical your description is the better. You must be programming micro controllers right on the boat ? Was the prototype Arduino controlled ? If it was I'd love to see some of those resources and scripts ?
Yes it's microprocessor based and all development happened on Temptress.
I'm thinking about a next video before I actually show my toys. It sounds click bait but it's actually useful. What do you think about a list of catastrophic failures that can happen with Lifepo4?
I know 3 right off the top of my head that can destroy your electrical system in short order and cost a LOT to repair.
@@Clarks-Adventure A well researched discussion of catastrophic lithium battery failure as it relates to boat safety would be very relevant and not clickbait. Not just the BMS system failing and having no power. Real world risk analysis of lithium reaching combustion temperature is hard to come by. Some want to exaggerate and sensationalize, while others have a vested interest in downplaying or dismissing the risk for their devices. This has been on my mind. I've been thinking about a contained battery box and water flooding system. Also how easily do lithium batteries become involved in a fire that doesn't originate from the batteries.
As I understand it it's hard to get Lifepo4 to fail that way.
Li-ion has no place in a boat because if it's tendency to fail "hot".
But I've done no independent research.
What I'm suggesting is a video about how one could (with the best of intentions) kill a Lifepo4 bank, or alternator.
@@Clarks-Adventure I can think of lightning based damage. But, with correct fusing, Lifepo4 should be fairly safe. It doesn't flame on like Lithium Ion , a a huge plus. But, how do they fail when miss treated ? Do they just stop working or is there something more catastrophic ?
OK, economically catastrophic.
I guess that's a vote for that video.
If a boat were using your BBMS, might there be any advantages in having 2 battery banks, both with lithium & lead, with an A/B/A+B/Off selector switch? If so, might there be any advantages in drawing power from 1 bank while the other is being charged, then reverse them?
No much the opposite.
Even though lithium doesn't slump it's voltage as bad as lead it does do that. And lead really does.
By slump I mean when you draw current from a resting battery it's voltage goes down in proportion to what you draw as a percentage of the battery's size.
So if you split your bank you loose more voltage (and therefore watts) upon discharge.
Similar for charging.
So one big bank is more efficient then two half sized banks.
@@Clarks-Adventure Thanks, Clark!
Will Prouse (something with Will Prouse channel) showed data on recharging and discharging Lithium Ion or lithium something metal. Charging to 75% and only draining to 25% supposedly makes your cells last for decades. I think he'd love to know about this combo, looks great to me, but I'm no expert.
DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse, and yeah he knows alot about lipo4 batteries
It isn't recommended to use different chemistry of batteries because lead acid batteries need twice the size of the solar panels and twice the pressure to push the charge into the batteries than Lifepo4 batteries. A discharged lead acid battery make take 12 hours for a full charge while Lithium can be charged in two hours. Besides, the efficiency of Lithium is 98% but lead acid is very low and very heavy.
Yeah, i love Will Prowse's channel, and i was wondering if he'd be up to speed with Clark here. It'd be cool to see them hanging out :). i'm also very glad i ran into this channel, i love this idea (and the AC too!).
I signed up for the Air conditioner, and did the survey, but never heard back from you, so thought the idea went dead.
Not dead but suffering from supply chain issues. Waiting on one more important part.
@@Clarks-Adventure that's great news! It's hot here in the Philippines 🙂🙂
Would it be fair to say that you have a canbus equivalent? But it wont be linked to the alternator will it??
I'm not networked in any way. Canbus is more of an automotive thing I think. Strangely I do have canbus network on board but if I networked this I'd probably use nmea2000 or just normal internet stack.
Is this lead/lithium system connected to the starter of the main engine? If the main engine starter draws 300 starting amps would it cause the lithium BMS to trip?
Never has. The wiring from the starter battery and switches cause a bit of a voltage drop do most of the starter power comes from the starter battery.
Also with this kind of system the lead helps out when a huge load comes because even for lithium the voltage drops with big loads. When it drops below 12.8 the lead it there to help.
Hello, thank you for the informations.
Is it possible to connect a LiFePO4 battery to an AGM battery when the montage is:
AGM battery Cyrix-ct Starter battery Engine alternator (basic model, internal regulator).
Should I worry about the alternator or the Cyrix-ct be burn by the lithium battery?
Or the AGM will act like a resistance and limit the current for the lithium battery.
You should look into this.
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
It's how I'm doing it now.
@emilyandclark. I just got a new trailer and come to find out it has a 12v fridge that is eating through my leadacid battery that came with it. So I found a decent deal on an EPOCH 460Ah. This bad boy has a decent BMS but I don’t see anywhere the abilty to set charging levels.
The trailer has a converter that is rated for both LA and LiFePo. And has smart detection.
I have a couple of questions if you don’t mind. I haven’t look at the cost of your bank manager, but I am assuming it ain’t just a $100 piece of equipment.
A) my usage is simply to run the fridge, a couple of lights. A water pump and the heater blower for up to a week on a single charge. Or a couple of hours on a genny. Is your bank manager overkill?
B) should I keep my LA in place and disconnect the LI while in transport to save the alternator on my truck? Perhaps keep them both on? I assume if keeping the LA then the BBM is recommended.
C) I have gotten used to keeping the old trailer plugged in to shore power while parked in my driveway. This way I can run a heater via the shore power 120 during the coldest months to help prevent freezing. If I do this on the new trailer Would this affect the LI battery? Otherwise the only thing running is just the smoke and CO detector ( going to install switches on the USB ports to turn them off). Again would the BBM be worth the investment ?
Whatever you do don't buy the EPOCH. They tried to do my BankManager trick in their BMS and missed the mark. There are lots of webpages out there telling you how to work around their screw up... Sort of
If you want something of that quality get the VoltGo. If you use the link on my leader board you will get a big discount.
Yes of course I think you should go BankManager. It's the only way to charge li properly.. Don't trust your campers charger and definitely not your alternator. The BankManager will do it right.
Check out this and see the manual for how to install it. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
@@Clarks-Adventure thanks for the very quick response.
Well unfortunately the epoch has already arrived. I thought I did due diligence researching and they seemed to have great reviews by other you tubers. I guess I will need to investigate your recommendations.
I am in process of drawing up the schematics of the trailer.
I need to know where all wires go and where the solar input goes. Almost done with the under carriage, next to tear out the converter to see what wires are back there.
I will look into the BBM tomorrow.
I am not suggesting I am relying on the alternator of the truck. Conversely, I want to isolate it if possible in case the BMS shuts down. I was thinking either a disconnect of the LiFePO or keeping the LA in the circuit to act as a “shock absorber” in case such an event happens.
recently installed a lifepo4 battery 100ah in my campervan.it’s smart Bluetooth bms so can see power being consumed by my stereo x3 power amps ‘homemade sub fosgate driver plus kenwood speakers about 15amps on the bms app when wick turned up.I thought why don’t I use my spare agm battery.only new last year one one weak.as had a pair of 115ah arm’s.I know u not supposed to mix lead with lithium but thought could use the agm when stereo on by using a switch to kick in the agm battery.I’m using a separate circuit for agm charged by my old dc charger 12amp and some solar 100watt with epever 10amp mppt.The lifepo4 has victron dc charger 18amp Orion and a Renogy rover 20amp mppt from another 100watt panel..so if I link batteries with fused link and a switch by drivers seat what you reckon ?
I've learned a lot since I made this video. I've learned that mixed battery banks not get charged optimally. I've learned that no charge controller I've found charges lithium correctly even if it has a lithium setting. And I've found there was no commercial product that brings it all together.
So I designed one. My recommendation for your system is install your AGM and take all charge sources and loads to it. Connect it to your engine lead battery with a cheap voltage sensitive relays. Connect your Li to your AGM with my BankManager (www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms) and you have a powerful system. You would never discharge your engine battery but you can charge it from solar or whatever automatically. Your system will use li first and then have your AGM available next. You will cycle your Li most often and only cycle your lead now and again. Your Li will be charged optimally for best life. There is even a special setting for car stereo guys where the li will be disconnected if too large of a load is demanded of it, like starting the engine.
Is this the right way to go for you, possibly not due to cost. But I believe it would be the best.
You will find these ideas described in other videos on our channel. I suggest you look at our playlists to help you. The li one and the electrical education series in particular.
Incredible Video AGAIN about this subject…. Thanks!
You're very welcome Stephen
It's kinda old.
Here is how I'm doing it now.
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
Clark...... quick question.... somewhere in one of the videos or comments there was a mention of size of bank in amp hours between the Lead and lithium mentioning one should in reality be larger than the other. Do I remember that correctly? If so which one should be largest... Im remembering it being the LiPo4 bankshould be largest in amp hours.
If you use one of these it really doesn't matter. It will adapt to what you have.
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
I mean I wouldn't actually use a motorcycle battery but in theory you could.
The limit of the Lifepo4 is 2550ah per BankManagerPlus. But we'll, that's a lot.
@@Clarks-Adventure was asking more for comparative reasons of their system to others.... they said they had plenty juice for their needs at the 400amp hour lithium (at 12v) which then in comparison should be about same as someone with 24v lithium sized to 200ah.
Yep. That's actually a good chunk of power.
On Temptress we have 1500ah of lead and 200 of li. Since the li was installed it "feels" like we have so much power.
If your device could communicate with the bluetooth messaging that many lithiums are now being shipped with, that would provide very accurate cut off points for the lithium charge amount. Because bluetooth equipped BMS devices show the state of each cell quite accurately. A bluetooth interface would also make your device more friendly to operate and many owners seem to be keen on bluetooth based interfaces. Good luck with your technology, it seems a great solution.
I have an development path that might lead to Bluetooth and better screen. I personally think this thing belongs out of sight just doing its job in the battery spaces but many people are mounting it visible. So new case is my next project. I need more space inside anyway for any upgrades.
Lithium chargers are well adapted to charge lithium batteries respecting the 3 phases charging cycles. Lead (older) battery chargers do not charge batteries very efficient, this solved by using modern chargers. Today intelligent alternators installed on modern cars do respect the state of the lead battery while charging them even though the main purpose of these intelligent alternators was for anti-pollution and fuel savings. Now the remaining and touching subject is to charge lead and lithium batteries together and prevent on battery to discharge to the other. The smartest way I found for alternator charging is a Victron cc/cc inverter that prevent batteries to be connected when they are not charging and control the charging current going to the lithium battery. Lithium batteries have very low internal resistance that do not vary during the charge while lead batteries have an internal resistor increasing with the charge: the battery control it’s charging current for the bulk phase. The problem lies with how to control the latest phases of the charge. I do this with 2 different solar circuits. All the best Jacques
Danke Top 😀
I appreciate the developments. Certainly interested in integration into my build when it is available.
Hi Clark, great work, thanks (goes for the AC too! Glad you also have an RV model that doesn't require salt water :) )! i am wondering if the BBMS+ works for my intended setup. i have two sets of solar panels, and want to hook them up to a LiFePO4 setup. i also already have an AGM that i'd like to combine with the lithium in this case. i'd be using two MPPTs so one set of panels doesn't diminish the other's potential. Will that work with the BBMS+? Will it accept two MPPTs to charge a lithium-lead acid bank?
Yes that would work fine.
I designed the BankManagerPlus to really not care where the charge comes from. Best of the final voltage is below 14.6v. But that's what you likely want for your lead anyways as the lead will likely not be discharged.
www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
Oh, and thanks Dennis
Hi Will, thank you for the information and advice. Would you connect a mix of gel and lifepo4 batteries for a residential home. 12v100ah or 12 v 200 ah. Which type would you connect directly to the ups.
If you are asking me, my name is Clark
Yes gels are lead they would work fine. You might find this useful. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
@@Clarks-Adventure Sincerely appreciated, thank you Clark. Kind regards.
Hi Clark, have you seen the Growatt inverter/Charger, I believe when you profile the batteries acid, AGM or LiFePo4, you set the voltage and then you can adjust on your smart phone once a week once a month to a new volt level, would that achieve what you have been explaining on this video.
Hope this helps :-)
Nope. There is a lot to it but if any solution doesn't have a remote amp sensor measuring exactly what is really going into the lithium, they can't be doing it well.
And that would be just the first step.
Would this work on an all lithium system? My current problem is my alternators have internal regulation and I can't stomach the price for "smart" regulators when they won't do anything smart. Currently I have disabled one by removing the belts. The other side I have been turning off the engine until we add more load, usually in the form of a loud ass dance party.
I'm thinking of just restricting the output as alternator charging isn't usually necessary but I want to keep the option. I'm no electrical engineer and was hoping you may have a solution to keep the alternator from going above say 13.8v.
Edit: I know there are some devices out there but I'm fairly certain some .78 cent resistor or something could accomplish the same job? Maybe?
It's difficult to do that with an internally regulated alternator.
In my opinion the very best way to solve all this and the ONLY way currently available to properly, and safely charge you expensive lithium is with one of my BBMSs and a small lead battery. One of my design points was to make this work with any existing charging systems.
I just finished development and have 35 boards here getting ready to ship out. I'll be doing a video announcing it soon. I suggest you either subscribe to this channel or fill out the survey (description of the AC video) to be kept informed.
We also have a "dream believers" level on Patreon where you can call me for help on "whatever". People use this for engineering type help all the time.
@@Clarks-Adventure Thank you for replying! I am definitely a subscriber and filled out a survey previously. I'll await your announcement!
@@Clarks-Adventure Been waiting months to get one of the BBMS's. Subscribed, surveyed and Patreon'ed to get updates. Are you saying that the video is the official announcement (not a email to the survey participants before hand)? Thanks.
I'm still waiting on the current sensors but once I'm sure about them ,(I've been lied to by suppliers before). I'll do a description video and announce how to place orders.
Also the boxes are made in the US but they haven't taken my order yet.
Patron's will get a boost.