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@Generation Tech - Have you considered the possibility that these scammers are actually dolphins? I mean, I have no evidence that it's dolphins, but it seems like something they would do. Bastards.
@@CD-Freedom It takes 9 years to produce a close soldier however and the war only lsted 4 years, so a clone that started being grown in a vat on the first day of the war would not be ready for fighting until 5 years after the war. This is why the Kaminoan prime minister's aide says that if they need more troops it will take time to produce.
Note that they never say 200,000 soldiers/infantry/etc. They say 200,000 units they never specify the size of the unit. If that unit was say the formation you see the clone troopers marching in then a unit was about the size of a battalion. Or about 400-500 clone troopers.
200,000 ready. A million nearly ready. Doesn't say much about how much more they have in training. They could have 10 million, 100 million or even 1 billion in training.
That's the main thing I think about when people talk about this kind of subject. The clones and droids were more like secondary forces to support the locals. As someone, I forget who, put it: "The Clone Wars weren't one war. They were hundreds of smaller civil wars that the Republic and Separatist forces chose sides in and aided"
@@sorin_markov They were responsible for the space battles and acted as powerful shock forces on the ground, further reinforcing the local troops or capturing a hostile system
The only clone commandos who died on Geonosis died infiltrating a droid factory that Delta Squad wound up destroying. Outside of Traviss' works, there were no mass suicide charges of clone commandos. All we saw was Mace lead men to victory and the Seps turning tail.
To me, Jedi seem to be more about heroics and trying to relive the stories they read about from the old days of the Republic then doing anything practical except maybe Anakin who was certainly an "out-of-the-box" thinker, he wanted decisive action and results, not theatrics.
@@maxbrandt6 False. Most Jedi are very conservative about their soldiers and are less likely to go banzai and risk everything. The Light Side demands temperance, hence why the more orthodox Jedi commanders like Kenobi are defensive-minded, while Anakin is the one charging into battle like a maniac, because inside his mind, he has the romantic view of what a Jedi is, as opposed to someone like Kenobi or Yoda, who actually practices the Jedi Code and focuses on defensive tactics.
Karen gets a bad rap, but as a military veteran myself I admire how accurately she captured the experience of actual soldiers. The jargon, the brotherhood, the disassociation was all well done
Same here mostly. I never served, had a lung go out when I was thinking about joining, but I lent some of her books to guys I worked with who did. The chapter where one of the clones looses his shit clearing a building after their base got shelled made one guy I knew get really solemn. This was a guy who did four tours and who I never saw back down from anything get shook buy the way Travis described the scene.
Exactly. It‘s what I‘ve wanted to read since first laying eyes on the clone army. Not the Jedi POV, who are usually the focus, but the faceless soldiers taking the brunt of the war.
When Obiwan visited Kamino, they told him that there were 200,000 units ready with a million more well on the way. Many believe that meant there were 1.2 million clones. This however isn’t true because a “unit” refers to a regiment of 2304 clones. This means at the start of the clone wars there were 460,800,000 clones ready with 2,304,000,000 more on the way.
I always took the word unit over personnel or soldiers to be specific. They had 200,000 platoons at the ready. About 8 million clones with another 40 million well on the way in the short term.
That seems reasonable. A Venator can hold 7000 clone troopers (both for planetary invasions and just naval crewman). There were around 1000 Venators in defending Coruscant at the opening of RotS. That’s 7,000,000 Clones right there. Considering that was the very end of the Clone Wars, three years on form Geonosis, it’s entirely likely that the amount of clone troopers was in the 50-70 Million range. If 1000 Venators were at Coruscant, that means there were probably around 3,000 more out and about in the galaxy. Totaling about 4,000 Venators in total at the time of RotS, which is 28,000,000 Clones serving in the republic navy alone. Now adding in ground forces, that would being the total up to 40-50 Million. Assuming Venator losses were 200-800 during the entirety of the war, that would be 1.4-5.6 Million clones that had died aboard venators. The rest can be added up to the smaller vessels, which had much smaller crew requirements. That leaves the aforementioned 50-70 Million range. The PDF can account for another 30-40 Million personnel bringing the republic’s total to 80 Million-1.1 Billion personnel. The Droid army was likely tens of billions strong, with local PDF’s being a much smaller minority, as the droids were so goddamn cheap that it was more cost effective to just produce them and ship them to PDF’s. A few standouts are the Umbarans, which either insisted on using locals or were only recently brought in to the CIS and thus didn’t have as many droids.
So, kinda like how the original US Army was intended to operate. Using state militias, which later evolved into the National Guard. That system is fairly inefficient and was put aside for a national army very quickly. I'm too busy at the moment to properly research it, so if someone knows if I'm wrong about what the state militias became, other than the obvious folding into the national force, let me know. I'll edit this later. With a correction if no one offers one in the meantime.
on a planetary scale, that would work, but in the star wars universe which is on a universal scale, it won't work out so well, namely because the larger the army, the harder it is to keep track of it, so planets having their own militias that hold the line till reinforcements come if they are not able to beat back the threat themselves would actually benefit everyone
If memory serves me correctly, the National Guard was created during the later decades of the 19th century. During that time, strikes - particularly Railroad strikes - had become so large that the entire national economy was threatened. During the initial wave of strikes in the decade following the Civil War, the militias began siding with the workers that went on strike - since many men were one and the same. The states, therefore, needed a force that could be mustered on a state-wide level as opposed to from the general population in and around the center of tension. Thus, the troops would be less sympathetic to the cause they were called into combat.
Plus, the state militias thing was mostly because the US was, after the Revolution, technically not under the Constitution we currently operate under. The initial “constitution”, was known as the “Articles of Confederation” which essentially gave the states all of the power and left the Federal government nearly powerless.
The star wars republic was more like the EU. The EU has no army, no military force what so ever, but the member states all do have their own military forces.
The War of 1812 is what essentially scrapped the system that the US had at that time with having a small federal army and the states having their own militias which at that time were not prepared to fight against the British which is why the war ended in a draw which was the best outcome for the US
I always understood that the Army was actually 1 to 10 million strong but the bulk of clone forces were stationed aboard venators within the navy. If every or even most republic venators were manned by clones and there were at least 1000 venators at the battle of coruscant alone with a crew of 7,400 then that's 7.4 million possible clones. Theres no telling how many total venators the republic operated. These crews could have also accounted for garrison forces as well leaving even more possibility of 10 million clones in the army actually doing the fighting.
I once found out a possible number that the amount of venators produced was about 25 000, so 7400 X 25000 would be 185 million clone troopers stationed on board all venators that were produced during the war if that 7400 only includes clones at least and not seperate support personnel and droids.
@@wesleyjaskulsky9414 From the clone wars show it is clear the venators are severely undermanned. Whatever Venator that is filled to capacity with clones quickly loses that as troopers a dropped off on every other system to fight ground wars while the venator becomes a glorified shipping vessel going back and forth between locations moving troops around from planet to planet. We see like 10-20 clones on the bridge, a couple maintaining the reactors and engines, a bunch of squads patrolling hallways with some pilots and engineers here and there on most venators. Only a select few scenes heading for important big battles do we see the venator being filled with both crew and troopers. So my only conclusion is that most venators are not filled to capacity and the republic is largely understaffed on clones. The senate does debate ordering 5 million more clones, however they are going bankrupt from the war so it's not easy legislation to pass.
Similarly, in WWII, the United States had over 16 million servicemembers but only sent 2.7 million to Europe. The rest were elsewhere, mostly on ships.
@@nicholaspratt8473 the galactic Republic " we can't afford another 5 million clones we are in debt and broke" meanwhile the chad countries of the war Era " casually throws tens of millions of soldiers around with ease"
@blue anonymous guy I also made a comment about how the Clones are similar to the US Marine Corps of which there were only 500k in WWII. A small batch compared to the other army numbers like you said
I'd imagine supporting such a large force over such vast distances limited the amount of people and equipment you could afford to support without badly affecting your economy.
True. Though it's worth pointing out that bankrupting the Republic with expensive clone armies was part of Palpatine's plan - and, for that matter, the Confederacy would be in more or less the same fix. The CIS rely on absorbing huge numbers of casualties, so keeping a droid army combat-effective in a campaign that lasts longer than one battle would mean a colossal supply chain of reinforcements, spare parts, and service depots.
I’ve always assumed that a, “unit” meant an individual clone, but it is an interesting idea to think it could mean a company or battalion. It’s also interesting to consider the planet defense forces. You see it on Umbara on the Separatist planets, but to think of it on Republic planets is fascinating when thinking of the Clone Wars in general.
I think most of the mainstream conception of Star Wars is tilted because we are always following Jedi. The Jedi led the clones, so of course every battle we see involves them. But most of the conflict would have rather been happening around hyperspace lanes and spaceports and the like, with occasional assaults on particularly important planets like geonosis or ryloth where an invading clone or droid force would be fighting a pdf. I bet there was much less actual fighting in the war than we think and most of it was probably really centralized.
Seriously, if we ever get a new trilogy or tv series in a different era, I hope they portray both main factions as somewhat believable. Both with solider numbers and tactics. Also, thanks Alan for calling out these scammer replies plaguing UA-cam, that they're not doing anything about.
I always figured that a "unit" meant some number greater than a single trooper. Probably something along the lines of like 64 troopers per unit. This would make more sense as far as scale of the army as well as in business dealings. Cause when selling a lot of small products in bulk you tend to label it as a package or bundle deal.
Fair warning to anyone looking up Travis Legends books, "negative attitude" towards the Jedi really undersells it. She was essentially the Warren Ellis of Star Wars Legends, producing amazing content as long as she didn't have to write for the most common character type in the genre (superheroes for Ellis and Jedi for Travis).
She was the only writer who didn’t put the Jedi on a fucking pedestal, like they were infallible Gods or something. Also for the characters who had aversions to Jedi it made sense in the story. Why should Mandalorians - who by all means have always been on the opposite side, and whose culture is just so damn contrary to the monks- _like_ Jedi? Why should the troopers trained by them be fans Jedi? In fact they are in the beginning, until they learn really quickly the Jedi are also just people and can make mistakes. I don’t see a Jedi-hating attitude in Traviss, but in her characters. And that makes sense. You wouldn’t groan for a Sith to dislike Jedi either, right?
@@dharper3619 While those are my favorite, those aren't her only SW novels. She also wrote Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines and Revelation, Star Wars The Clone Wars (movie novelization), and The Clone Wars, No Prisoners.
@@HistorysRaven Thanks Raven- I don't believe I read Bloodlines- I can't remember- I did peep The Clone Wars (movie adaptation) The CW, and I missed No Prisoners... I will probably order that last one for sure!
Well, in US Army common usage, a "unit" is typically used to refer to a Battalion of troops, so around 500 to 1000 guys, depending on the type of troops and mission. Of course, the Republic of Star Wars isn't the US Army so they could be using it to refer to some other numerical structure, but that was how I always took it: as thousands of Battalions.
This vid was pretty similar to how I viewed it. I actually have a much darker view though. The only systems that had good defenses were those who had the wealth and population to develop planetary and system wides defenses. Meaning mostly Core worlds, at the expense of Mid-Rim and Outer-rim worlds, had the means to protect themselves. And they had this because of the exploitation of smaller and less developed systems
I think it’s also important to recognize that the army was a distraction and means to spread the Jedi out to a point so thin that they would be able to swiftly eradicate the ones left. That’s why Jango was the original clone, because he beat a Jedi in close quarter combat. Since Palpatjne was always controlling both sides of the battlefield it didn’t really matter how many clones he made. He could make the clones appear as strong, or as weak as he’d like. I also wonder how much money it cost to create the droid army vs the GAR.
Yes , this is the best explanation, palpatine knew the cis stood no chance because they were nothing but his puppets who he was betraying and expending , at just a few million the clones were enough for me their real targets the jedi
Thank you for your videos, Alan. At least we got one Star Wars UA-camr who understands neither the clones nor the Stormtroopers were the grunts of their time, but rather the special forces. Especially the Stormtroopers. Sadly no canon material does actively feature the imperial army, so that most people believe stormtroopers are just goons when they‘re highly trained specialists.
Solo and especially Andor shows Imperial Army holding low-value planets, as opposed to Stormtroopers who are sent to high-value Imperial operations like Jedha, Scarif, defending the Death Star, and assaulting known locations of the main Rebel forces.
The biggest issue I had with the Clone Army is the Emperor saw them as expendables. NO Warrior is Expendable. Even if they are 5 or 6 year old Clone Warriors. At least the Bad Batch always use the Stun Setting when they have to take out other clones to achieve their objective, so they don't have to murder their own brothers.
The emperor never intended of keeping the clones around, thus they were expendable. He wanted to transform society into a Sith like society and the way he was doing that was through the imperial army, requiting normal people into the armed forces so that when the rebels fight and defeat imperial forces, the citizens of the empire lose their friends and family on the front lines, increasing support for a more authoritative Empire with more and more draconian laws. This is also why Palpatine used droids for the separatists, because the populace weren't willing to die in a war on the republic and he needed them to die fighting the empire instead. All this fighting and dying is to sow division, conflict and hatred which empowers the Sith emperor. His ultimate goal is to create a loyal fanbase of cult like followers that worship him, filling his ranks with psychopaths. All his machinations is to bring out those psychopaths and the heroes to oppose them so they could be annihilated. All to create his Sith society with him on top being worshiped like a god. So this is why he considers all his forces expendable, he revels in the death and destruction as it furthers his goals of domination.
@@GeneralBlackNorway Its whats currently going on in Russia right now. By, costing the lives of your people; they don't turn on you especially if there is enough fear. They attack their "enemies". Its why the outer rim was where the rebellion grew as well as a few senators. The core worlds went along with it for the most part.
@@GeneralBlackNorway The Emperor wanted to rule absolutely as an almost cultlike figure and would always reserve absolute power, especially when he dismisssed the Senate and put the Galaxy on edge by building two Death Stars. The point was to rule absolutely. But he never wanted to get caught in the day-to-day governance. He allowed Grand Moff Tarkin to seize power within the Empire who ultimately was acting as a despot in his own right in the Outer Rim. He wanted to retire and work on training new pupils and rediscovering ancient Sith secrets, artifacts, texts, etc. like on Malachor. Doing Sith stuff was his goal while he wore the crown but he didn't want to get caught up with any rebellion at any given moment and wanted Tarkin and Vader, an uneasy duo, to basically control the military and use the Death Star to ensure his continuous and uninterrupted rule so long as they were absolutely loyal.
To think as wise as Jedi Master Yoda was he was no military expert. He brought specialist in saboteurs into the front lines when they should have been sent ahead of the main Force to cause confusion and chaos. The droids would never have been activated after explosions would have rung out in the storage depots from the commandos attacking the complex everywhere at once
To be fair we've always just assumed that unit=1 clone and battles in Star Wars have always been rather small in what's supossed to be a galaxy of Hundred Billions because that makes it easier for the viewer to get more attached to individuals and makes battles easier to follow.
I'm my head I always equate the amount of clone number to the 2000's 2D version, because those battles were absolutely massive. Even the battles in space had massive troop carriers, and huge fleets of fighters
Great vid GenTech. A fascinating look at troop numbers. Thanks for the scammer warning, been seeing those alot lately. I always report and block them whenever they show up.
I just realised that the background you use is suppose to be the Ukrainian flag? That is a cool tribute to those fighting for freedom. Thank you for a great video yet again. These clone wars videos made me re-watch the show again.
Idk if other cloning sources were noted in canon, but in legends they had a spartii cloning facility on the moon of coruscant during halfway to the later stages of the clone wars; which was used to supplement the kaminoan clones. I think one of the source books in legends (will have to come back and show where it was stated) a unit was a full battalion, 576 clones. So 200,000 units were made were ready and a million in reserve. Plus the 2 million added later when it was brought to the Senate to be voted on. Like I said before, spartii cloning sources were started to being used to make clones faster and also from other templates other than jango. Plus the assortment of Planetary defense forces that assisted the clones during some battles. So the the clone numbers were definitely well into the billions by wars end.
I'm coming forth as a member of Alan's anti-dolphin network. I've been monitoring the Gulf of St-Lawrence for three years now, reporting on beluga and several Atlantic dolphin varieties with the help of locals. They're surprisingly tame, but I'm keeping an eye out and not letting my guard down. I should have another set of positional reports by next week.
Would love to see a video on the judicial forces during the clone wars. They are mentioned briefly in canon and legends, but there is little said about what happened to their ground forces when they became part of the GAR, but they don really appear in any media about the war.
We always forget that clones aren't just foot soldiers as there are so many other jobs that we forget that need to be filled in for example: mechanics, pilots, naval officers, medical officers,... out of the 200,000 , 50,000 to 100,000 of those spots get filled in by them. A Venator can carry 7,400 personnel, including officers, pilots and enlisted crew + an additional 2,000 Troops. If we take a fully packed venator and do 200,000/9,400 = 21 Venators. 2,000 x 21 = 42,000 foot soldiers. Yes Venators don't require full crews to operate. But you also have a bunch of other ships and stations to operate during the war. My best guess is that "Unit" isn't just 1 soldier but a platoon size. If we do the math: 200,000 x 41 = 8,200,000, 8,200,000/9,400 = 872 Venators, 2,000 x 872 = 1,744,000 foot soldiers. making it bit more realistic to have at the start of the war.
Halle Burtoni says "I propose the Republic purchase an additional 5 million clone troopers" (Pursuit of Peace). She doesn't say units. Maybe the writer of this episode missed the obvious military repercussions. If there are 1 trillion on Coruscant, then the galaxy may have on the order of tens to hundreds of trillions. Perhaps the 1.2 million and 5 million are only referring to troopers on the ground, not any of the starfighter branch and naval branch are made separately perhaps in other cities on Kamino outside Tipoca City in separate clone bills. Someone once said that the Clone Wars is a misnomer. It is not a war between clones and droids but a civil war on populated planets across the galaxy, with clones and droids inserted on strategic fronts or for decisive effect. Most populated worlds would have a standing professional military that would defend the local sector, although they were less useful for far off expeditions and campaigns away from home for political reasons. The Republic military also included volunteers of non-clones in many branches outside the GAR who outnumbered the clones but were serving on the sidelines in things like friendly occupation of Republic worlds, maintenance and repairs, logistics, and intelligence. The Clones really did bear the brunt of the war.
3:48 - Anyone else imagining FMA in all this? Hughes wasn't "special forces," but he did work in places which brought him into contact with information that, while not explicitly top-secret, was enough for him to be able to realize the conspiracy ages ahead of everyone else. Part of that was also his proximity to the Elric brothers, but still. There's potential here.
The scabbard looks cool but rather odd since one doesn’t usually carry a lightsaber in a scabbard while ignited. At least the Disney parks lightsaber sheaths give the impression that it’s not necessarily a lightsaber one is carrying. It could be some illegal beskar staff one is carrying in that sheath. Now, a scabbard that carried some sort of glowing blunt “training” swords that are embewed with the force would seem to be cool. Having those swords that were associated with the Jeedai Rangers or the very ancient Sith in one’s collection of lightsabers would be cool. It would also be cool that one could use one of those force embewed swords to spar with another who is using a lightsaber.
Sadly, for cosplayers, there's just no nice solution is there? You can have a lovely saber hilt hanging at your belt looking cool, but where to put the neo-pixel blade? And the screws and the wrench you're gonna have to fiddle with to light it up? To say nothing of a spare battery! I doubt myself that scabbards are gonna be the way to go, since we never see them in any incarnation of SW.
We do not know how much effort it took to make one clone. How much planning and extra construction it took to make Kamino capable of making so many troops.
the magic wielding generals, sort of level stuff out. if the droids had multiple Sith then the JEDi and clones would lose, but the sith tend to backstab and infight right become total victory. balance also the quality of the clones is what made them formidable for the droids. droids cant change very well, and were inferior in combat skill. 1 clone tropper can take on a B1 a B2 , with some tools a Drioika that mainly needed surprise to work.
the best way to make sure it's really the person making the videos is always ask them to put a heart next to the comment so they can prove their who they say they are and usually they just give up after that
People have argued that Lama Su might have meant "Unit" as a military group or division or formation. So it would be 200,000 x the number of the unit. Which some pre-disney estimates ranged the clones being in the trillions. Which they would require such numbers to engage in interplanetary wars.
That’s not really how Star Wars combat is. Stuff like Blockades didn’t need hundreds of ships to cover the entire planet… you could blockade a planet with only a dozen of vessels. Same things goes for ground forces. Combat is relatively small scale. So Using One million clones to take a planet is pretty average, and some planets only took a a few dozens of thousands of clones. Stuff like force multipliers can make combat with insane scales inefficient and lead to more deaths.
@@PeterMuskrat6968 It's not really how star wars combat works??? You realize this is a story where people literally send army vs army in giant fields, the way people fought in the civil war. Just going head first at each other. We literally see that in Episode 2 on Geonosis. Stuff like Blockades didn’t need hundreds of ships to cover the entire planet… you could blockade a planet with only a dozen of vessels. You realize how many planets there are in this galaxy right? And I was talking more or less about the troop numbers NOT the ship count, I actually don't think the Republic had as many ships as their actual army, which would mean an army in the trillions is needed. Are you watching the clone wars cartoon or something and you REALLY think an entire planetary war is settled with a battle between 200 droids vs 200 clones and some jedi? You understand that these are scaled down for CG effect limits/reasons, right? The armies we are seeing are likely much larger than what we are in total seeing.. and these are battles of ONE part of the planet. If droids won a battle in Canada, does that mean the entire Country is lost, or the Entire Earth is conquered? Come on. Second, on average Earth's military force, combined with all military combatants of all countries is around 200 million. So if we use that number on average (Considering , and a planet cannot even handle the CIS, that implies they sent at least double the amount to the planet (400 million), the Republic would have to counter that with an equal or larger force. It was also confirmed in SW Rebels by the strategy droid, that the CIS always had more numbers than the Republic, and the amount of time it took to grow more clones was slower than building battle droids, and that the growth rate of droid vs clone, was in favor of the droids, thus if the War had been ongoing down to the last troop, it would've been in favor of the droids. So an army in the trillions would STILL be too small. C'mon dog. Less Star Trek, more Star wars.
I'd actually always understood it like this, with the Clone Army and attached Jedi Generals and Commanders to be sort of force multipliers to be deployed to Republic Planets who's own defense forces were getting hit pretty hard, to spearhead the liberation of conquered planets and to forcefully subvert the sceptical ones with shows of force.
I think of the clones as the United States Marine Corps, in the sense that the planetary defense forces are larger, more spread out, and lesser trained, to provide entrenched support, and have the clones be given superior training and equipment to that of most soldiers in the galaxy. The clones would kick down the door, and the PDF would hold down the fort once the planet is occupied. Then the clones are on the move again.
As mentioned by Padme, not only Clone Soldiers were fighting but PDF’s spanning millions of worlds. That’d probably amount to a fighting force that can challenge the droid army
Another point to why the Seperatists didn't just wipe out the Clone Army is that they had no idea that the Republic had an army. (Dooku probably knew, but he was in on the Big Plan to undermine the Republic.) They were retreating from an unknown force with unknown capabilities and unknown total numbers. For all the Seperatists knew, there could have been trillions of clones attacking all of their homeworlds in a huge surprise attack at that moment.
Karen Traviss books were amazing. My biggest disappointment is that her series was never completed. Each character was unique with their own story, own personality. The skills and military understanding was the best out of all the books written, they were more war stories than Sci fi and I love them.
To be fair, without spoiling anything, she is specific enough to complete most of the story lines. The problem I found was it was very quick and concise.
The point, I guess, is that the droids where as cheaply produced as possible, so they could have great numbers. But it was costly in battle, because they were never really good at anything.
Maybe part of it also ties into the NCO Gap seen in the Russian invasion of Ukraine. You have soldiers on one side who are actually punished for proceeding out of micro-directed turn, while on the other you have soldiers whose goal is solely to get the job done, details left to them. Whatever restraints Palpatine put Dooku under, it's hard to imagine that not playing a role.
I would like to see a clone wars series that focuses on the non-clone troops that served during the war. I mean with planetary defense, judicial, and militia forces that saw as much combat maybe more than the clone troopers
You know, Clone Troopers were like Imperium's Astartes. Major plot armor. Or rather the CW's idea was to whittle down the Republic, create fodder to the machines and Jedi. This way the Jedi were dehumanised and easy to fall to the dark side.
That's a very good theory. It also lends to defensive forces being very well trained and equipped for the area they are defending, making them more capable than an external force that has to adapt to the terrain. Also, it makes logistics of the defensive force much simpler and easier than the logistics of an external force.
The clone army was at least several billion clones. 200K units plus a million more doesn't literally translate to 1.2 million clones, but each unit is basically a military unit, like the 501st Legion or the 212th Attack Group. Each Clone Legion can have up to 9000 clones or more. Multiply that by 1.2 million, and you've got billions of clones right off the bat.
@@liftedmarco4976 Nonsense. The Kaminoans were talking about a military force, not simple products. Hence the term "unit" would refer to entire legions. Not to mention that there's millions of Republic worlds, and yet most of them had clone garrisons. So they each at least had a couple thousand clones milling about.
@@HolyknightVader999 yeah I don’t think that is what she means. In my opinion, the context of that scene from episode two makes it clear she means clones, not regiments or legions, they are all about business and would talk in business terms. Also it would make no sense why they sent so few clones to Genosis if there were 1.8 billion clones available.
@@liftedmarco4976 Because they have other worlds like Coruscant to guard? Because there's a galaxy-wide Separatist movement and Geonosis is just one of their bases? And again, they were speaking of an army, so the word unit would logically mean a military unit like the 501st Legion. The Republic has millions of worlds, and yet many of them had at least some minimal clone presence. Some even have large clone garrisons. You cant do that if you have less than 2 million clones.
@@liftedmarco4976 It does make sense, because of what you need to get them there. You need a massive fleet, and said fleet needs escorts. So there's just a massive limit on how many you could reasonably deploy on short notice. That said, it also doesn't make sense for other reasons. If there are a billion+ clones, you need to feed and house them. Kamino has a population of 1 billion, so you're talking about more than doubling the population. But it'd be more than that, because she says "well under way"... that says there are also a lot that aren't at that stage yet. So it is probably safe to double the number up again. Then there is all the support needed. Food production, day care, housing construction... and let's not forget those training facilities. All of which need maintenance and support. And then there's equipping them. You need not just the clones, but also their armor and weapons. Including heavy weaponry. These are probably mostly imported, but this whole thing is supposed to be under the radar, so that should theoretically limit the scale. But that said, who knows what a unit actually is. Kamino's standard for military clones might be a squad, sort of like a company that sells by the case. Or it could be a single individual. I don't think it would refer to an entire legion, as, even if they focused almost exclusively on military clones, most of their customers would probably have relatively small orders. And if they weren't mostly military, then you wouldn't use a unit like legions. Overall, though, well, you sort of have to twist what is said, to what it would actually take to wage war on a galactic scale, to make it work as best as possible. One thing you can be sure of, though, 1.2m clones isn't enough for even a single planetary campaign.
My understanding is that Tipoca city had 1,2 million by the time of Geonosis 1, but there are also other facilities. And one basic Clone is worth more than one b1 Droid. And thats a basic one, not a Commando, ARC, ARF, Captain, ... basically while the scale might have been right of the Clones were much more advanced than the Droids. And to that they had numerous Jedi able to fight on the front lines as well. And as you mentioned planetary defence forces capable of fighting like for example the Mon Calamari. Or a TL;DR: Republic Army based, Droid army cringe
Actually rampart mentioned how they were decommissioning millions of clones “not fit” for service. But we see even as they are decommissioned in the outpost episode. Clones were still serving. So they were more the. A few million.
(before watching the video) it was small because palpatine only needed enough clones for a few specific set-piece "battles" that he already knew the outcomes of- remember, palp was playing chess against himself throughout the entire war and had decided from the start how everything was going to go.
I absolutly love the Republic Commando books and I'd be so fkn happy to see a live action series about that or even just a apperance of Omega Squad in the Bad Batch
IIRC, there was at least one arc in the clone wars where the clones had to fight a mixture of droids AND local planetary defense forces on a planet that had presumably been one of the founding Separatist Worlds. Considering several thousand worlds were part of the initial Separatist movement, realistically speaking the "Separatist Core" should have been incredibly difficult if not nigh on impossible for the Republic to take by themselves if they were a smaller elite army. They even had to take Geonosis a second time.
Devil's Advocate. Droids drain resources. Power for marching power for firing. Metal for soare parts. A billion soldiers in the field would require some quartermastery!
I fully agree. The Galactic Republic was incredibly decentralized that it resembled more UNO or the early USA than a federal state like e.g. Germany. It was only under the Empire that a true centralization was attempted but given that the Empire lasted only 20 years it had to fail by default.
I’m kind of thinking partly, the Separatist forces probably thought the Republic had far more clones than they were showing, since already the fact they even had the clones was a shock to all the commanders and forces, so it kind of makes sense that they’d rather fight the Republic in various places than all at once. Though I think if they knew that was all the Republic had, they’d have much rather had fought with everything they had
I have to disagree. A 'unit' in the military is not one soldier, it's a group of soldiers, often numbering in the hundreds. To say they had a million more 'units' on the way does not mean a million more clone troopers, it means a million more divisions/brigades/platoons, whatever. An actual army unit.
As a hoi4 player, we know exactly why the clone army was smaller but better than the Droid armies, the republic was going for a quality army rather than a large army.
I think we're over-looking quality of units. As well defended as the WWI trenches were, even a WWII army would have an easy time rolling over those defenses. Expand the disparity to WWI vs a current charge, and a smaller attacking force could likely defeat a larger defending force. We see time and again that for the most part, the rank and file clones are vastly superior to the rank and file droids. That 100 to 1 advantage becomes much less impressive when one clone is worth several droids in combat. Now that's not all of the answer, but it's a factor to add into the mix to explain how the number disparity could mean less than it appears. The quality of clones vs the quality of droids alone turns that 100 to 1 advantage into a messily 20 to 1 advantage. Add in a few other factors, and it's not that crazy when you look at other battles in history when an army has no right to win, but they do. As for the retreat from Geonosis, there is something to be said for the Separtists being caught mega off guard. It wouldn't be the first time a significant surprise strike causes an enemy to react badly. Again, that's not all of it since Palpatine was running the show for both sides, but it makes it somewhat believable even so. Thus hard to just point at it and say, "SEE!? They could have crushed us! Why didn't they?" Palpatine (or his lacky) could have come back with, "we caught them with their pants down. We rattled them so much they weren't thinking clearly. We're just very lucky they scrambled instead of really assessing the situation."
I never noticed he said units, not soldiers. That makes way more sense. Another thought is "well on the way" is very loose terminology. Knowing how perfectionist the kaminoans were they probably wouldn't let troops out to battle until they met ALL of their training requirements. So that statement could even mean "by the end of the month", which would mean there are a lot of units that were essentially ready and just being held back on technicalities. After all, the war hadn't started yet so they wouldn't even consider sending units out that weren't 100% trained.
This strategy sounds pretty similar to the late Roman Empire, which faced similar problems, constant civil war, being vastly outnumbered by a less advanced military foe and no real avenues for expansion or plunder to make investing in a huge army worth it. So the famous legions were split in 3, the Limitanei: troops designed solely to harass and slow down advancing armies the Comitatensis: Professional, well trained troops designed to acutally fight the battles and the Palatini: Elite troops who acted as bodyguards/elite infantry and cavalry, it was cost effective and worked well. But constant civil war meant that there were pretty much none left by the fall of Rome
This is a common misconception, “units” refers to combat units (i.e. platoons) rather than individual clones, at least in the current canon. It took a while for this mistake to be rectified
“Deployed in parade formation on a massive battlefield with no cover in an area where their training gave them zero advantage…this is why most republic commandos did not trust the Jedi after this first battle.” I’ve always thought this smear against the Jedi was bunk. They had operational and strategic command, but by and large the tactics would have been determined by the training the troopers had received on Kamino and by the decisions of clone officers. Are we really expected to believe the Jedi, upon unexpectedly receiving an army, would see fit to nitpick the tactics used by that army? There’s no reason the clones couldn’t have found cover or gone to ground while advancing if that was in fact part of their doctrine. The only reason they would have advanced in “parade formation” (which in the scenes more closely resembles open order formation) is because that is how they were trained to engage in such advances. Also note that the droids are not “dug-in” but are charging straight at the advancing republic forces. Would it work in real life? Of course not. But this is Star Wars we’re talking about. Whether it be clone armor, blaster rifle range, etc. I believe there is a better in-universe explanation of the tactics in the Battle of Geonosis than “The Jedi didn’t know what they were doing and micromanaged the tactics used by the professional soldiers they just met.”
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No
@Generation Tech - Have you considered the possibility that these scammers are actually dolphins?
I mean, I have no evidence that it's dolphins, but it seems like something they would do. Bastards.
I cannot tell if this is a bot or the real Generation Tech
is this the scam?
In canon, the 1,200,000 clone number was just at Tipoca city and millions more were made across Kamino in other facilities.
And Clone Troopers were being continuously trained and deployed to the front lines throughout the war.
@@CD-Freedom kind of like tree farming.
@@CD-Freedom It takes 9 years to produce a close soldier however and the war only lsted 4 years, so a clone that started being grown in a vat on the first day of the war would not be ready for fighting until 5 years after the war. This is why the Kaminoan prime minister's aide says that if they need more troops it will take time to produce.
@@GeneralBlackNorway they would likely have staggered the production so new soldiers were ready for deployment on a yearly basis
Is that true?
To be fair, Kamino is only one planet and they had spent a decade growing 200,000 units who are ready for battle with a million more well on the way.
Note that they never say 200,000 soldiers/infantry/etc. They say 200,000 units they never specify the size of the unit. If that unit was say the formation you see the clone troopers marching in then a unit was about the size of a battalion. Or about 400-500 clone troopers.
The droids can be kicked out at rate of trillion droid per hour rate
200,000 ready. A million nearly ready. Doesn't say much about how much more they have in training. They could have 10 million, 100 million or even 1 billion in training.
You might even describe them as magnificent
That makes so much more sense.
All those crazy weapons on Umbara were probably part of a planetary defense force before the war, just as a reminder of how powerful a PDF could be
LOL
That's the main thing I think about when people talk about this kind of subject. The clones and droids were more like secondary forces to support the locals. As someone, I forget who, put it: "The Clone Wars weren't one war. They were hundreds of smaller civil wars that the Republic and Separatist forces chose sides in and aided"
Isnt that like the cold war. The two superpowers aiding smaller groups for their ideology
@@sorin_markov They were responsible for the space battles and acted as powerful shock forces on the ground, further reinforcing the local troops or capturing a hostile system
@@sorin_markov I think Generation Tech said that, and they're absolutely right
5:52 *when Jedi lead them to an open battlefield with no cover*
Clone Commandos: "And we took it personally."
The only clone commandos who died on Geonosis died infiltrating a droid factory that Delta Squad wound up destroying. Outside of Traviss' works, there were no mass suicide charges of clone commandos. All we saw was Mace lead men to victory and the Seps turning tail.
To me, Jedi seem to be more about heroics and trying to relive the stories they read about from the old days of the Republic then doing anything practical except maybe Anakin who was certainly an "out-of-the-box" thinker, he wanted decisive action and results, not theatrics.
@@maxbrandt6 False. Most Jedi are very conservative about their soldiers and are less likely to go banzai and risk everything. The Light Side demands temperance, hence why the more orthodox Jedi commanders like Kenobi are defensive-minded, while Anakin is the one charging into battle like a maniac, because inside his mind, he has the romantic view of what a Jedi is, as opposed to someone like Kenobi or Yoda, who actually practices the Jedi Code and focuses on defensive tactics.
@@HolyknightVader999 Maybe that's why he was a superior general
@@privateuser3726 Yes, but he also gets a lot of men killed.
Karen gets a bad rap, but as a military veteran myself I admire how accurately she captured the experience of actual soldiers. The jargon, the brotherhood, the disassociation was all well done
Same here mostly. I never served, had a lung go out when I was thinking about joining, but I lent some of her books to guys I worked with who did.
The chapter where one of the clones looses his shit clearing a building after their base got shelled made one guy I knew get really solemn.
This was a guy who did four tours and who I never saw back down from anything get shook buy the way Travis described the scene.
@@christopherkowalczyk4405 yeah scorch gets combat fatigue. I recall that moment, it was well done
@@christopherkowalczyk4405 Which book was that?
I loved her books
Exactly. It‘s what I‘ve wanted to read since first laying eyes on the clone army. Not the Jedi POV, who are usually the focus, but the faceless soldiers taking the brunt of the war.
“A day won’t come when the droid army can’t outfight without a ten to one advantage”-Clone Commander Bly
Admittedly I don't know the source, so I can't check, but grammar and context means it's probably "can" not "can't".
When Obiwan visited Kamino, they told him that there were 200,000 units ready with a million more well on the way. Many believe that meant there were 1.2 million clones. This however isn’t true because a “unit” refers to a regiment of 2304 clones. This means at the start of the clone wars there were 460,800,000 clones ready with 2,304,000,000 more on the way.
how the fuck would 2 billion clones fit within such a tiny ass city
@@therexagon8752 guess it must've been in the whole planet of Kamino though
@@IagoVital but wasnt tipoca city the only cloning facility on kamino?
Deployed around the galaxy
@@therexagon8752 no lol, it was an entire planet full of cloners.
Short answer: There was literally only one planet making clones
Technically two if you include the spaarti clones on centax II
Other short answer: Writers don’t understand scale
Sounds like dolphin talk to me
Hyper-Centralization goes brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!
@@outlaw_01 centax 2 isn't a planet, so only one
I always took the word unit over personnel or soldiers to be specific. They had 200,000 platoons at the ready. About 8 million clones with another 40 million well on the way in the short term.
That seems reasonable.
A Venator can hold 7000 clone troopers (both for planetary invasions and just naval crewman).
There were around 1000 Venators in defending Coruscant at the opening of RotS. That’s 7,000,000 Clones right there. Considering that was the very end of the Clone Wars, three years on form Geonosis, it’s entirely likely that the amount of clone troopers was in the 50-70 Million range.
If 1000 Venators were at Coruscant, that means there were probably around 3,000 more out and about in the galaxy.
Totaling about 4,000 Venators in total at the time of RotS, which is 28,000,000 Clones serving in the republic navy alone.
Now adding in ground forces, that would being the total up to 40-50 Million. Assuming Venator losses were 200-800 during the entirety of the war, that would be 1.4-5.6 Million clones that had died aboard venators.
The rest can be added up to the smaller vessels, which had much smaller crew requirements.
That leaves the aforementioned 50-70 Million range.
The PDF can account for another 30-40 Million personnel bringing the republic’s total to 80 Million-1.1 Billion personnel.
The Droid army was likely tens of billions strong, with local PDF’s being a much smaller minority, as the droids were so goddamn cheap that it was more cost effective to just produce them and ship them to PDF’s.
A few standouts are the Umbarans, which either insisted on using locals or were only recently brought in to the CIS and thus didn’t have as many droids.
In legends a unit is 2304 clones, that makes for 2.304.000.000 clones well on the way alone
@@bobafett4457 falso, una unidad es solo una unidad en leyends
@@anthonyortiz45 sorry I don't speak burrito
So, kinda like how the original US Army was intended to operate. Using state militias, which later evolved into the National Guard. That system is fairly inefficient and was put aside for a national army very quickly.
I'm too busy at the moment to properly research it, so if someone knows if I'm wrong about what the state militias became, other than the obvious folding into the national force, let me know. I'll edit this later. With a correction if no one offers one in the meantime.
on a planetary scale, that would work, but in the star wars universe which is on a universal scale, it won't work out so well, namely because the larger the army, the harder it is to keep track of it, so planets having their own militias that hold the line till reinforcements come if they are not able to beat back the threat themselves would actually benefit everyone
If memory serves me correctly, the National Guard was created during the later decades of the 19th century. During that time, strikes - particularly Railroad strikes - had become so large that the entire national economy was threatened. During the initial wave of strikes in the decade following the Civil War, the militias began siding with the workers that went on strike - since many men were one and the same. The states, therefore, needed a force that could be mustered on a state-wide level as opposed to from the general population in and around the center of tension. Thus, the troops would be less sympathetic to the cause they were called into combat.
Plus, the state militias thing was mostly because the US was, after the Revolution, technically not under the Constitution we currently operate under.
The initial “constitution”, was known as the “Articles of Confederation” which essentially gave the states all of the power and left the Federal government nearly powerless.
The star wars republic was more like the EU. The EU has no army, no military force what so ever, but the member states all do have their own military forces.
The War of 1812 is what essentially scrapped the system that the US had at that time with having a small federal army and the states having their own militias which at that time were not prepared to fight against the British which is why the war ended in a draw which was the best outcome for the US
I always understood that the Army was actually 1 to 10 million strong but the bulk of clone forces were stationed aboard venators within the navy. If every or even most republic venators were manned by clones and there were at least 1000 venators at the battle of coruscant alone with a crew of 7,400 then that's 7.4 million possible clones. Theres no telling how many total venators the republic operated. These crews could have also accounted for garrison forces as well leaving even more possibility of 10 million clones in the army actually doing the fighting.
I once found out a possible number that the amount of venators produced was about 25 000, so 7400 X 25000 would be 185 million clone troopers stationed on board all venators that were produced during the war if that 7400 only includes clones at least and not seperate support personnel and droids.
@@wesleyjaskulsky9414 From the clone wars show it is clear the venators are severely undermanned. Whatever Venator that is filled to capacity with clones quickly loses that as troopers a dropped off on every other system to fight ground wars while the venator becomes a glorified shipping vessel going back and forth between locations moving troops around from planet to planet. We see like 10-20 clones on the bridge, a couple maintaining the reactors and engines, a bunch of squads patrolling hallways with some pilots and engineers here and there on most venators. Only a select few scenes heading for important big battles do we see the venator being filled with both crew and troopers.
So my only conclusion is that most venators are not filled to capacity and the republic is largely understaffed on clones. The senate does debate ordering 5 million more clones, however they are going bankrupt from the war so it's not easy legislation to pass.
Similarly, in WWII, the United States had over 16 million servicemembers but only sent 2.7 million to Europe. The rest were elsewhere, mostly on ships.
@@nicholaspratt8473 the galactic Republic " we can't afford another 5 million clones we are in debt and broke" meanwhile the chad countries of the war Era " casually throws tens of millions of soldiers around with ease"
@blue anonymous guy I also made a comment about how the Clones are similar to the US Marine Corps of which there were only 500k in WWII. A small batch compared to the other army numbers like you said
I'd imagine supporting such a large force over such vast distances limited the amount of people and equipment you could afford to support without badly affecting your economy.
True. Though it's worth pointing out that bankrupting the Republic with expensive clone armies was part of Palpatine's plan - and, for that matter, the Confederacy would be in more or less the same fix.
The CIS rely on absorbing huge numbers of casualties, so keeping a droid army combat-effective in a campaign that lasts longer than one battle would mean a colossal supply chain of reinforcements, spare parts, and service depots.
I’ve always assumed that a, “unit” meant an individual clone, but it is an interesting idea to think it could mean a company or battalion. It’s also interesting to consider the planet defense forces. You see it on Umbara on the Separatist planets, but to think of it on Republic planets is fascinating when thinking of the Clone Wars in general.
I think most of the mainstream conception of Star Wars is tilted because we are always following Jedi. The Jedi led the clones, so of course every battle we see involves them. But most of the conflict would have rather been happening around hyperspace lanes and spaceports and the like, with occasional assaults on particularly important planets like geonosis or ryloth where an invading clone or droid force would be fighting a pdf. I bet there was much less actual fighting in the war than we think and most of it was probably really centralized.
@@bobbirdsong6825 awesome analysis on the war.
This video when talking about the Military that Earth has, reminds me you did the series on "What if each faction found Earth in the Unknown Region."
Some faction could actually find us one day. That would be fun. 🤘
I think that Tattoine is earth in that universe
Seriously, if we ever get a new trilogy or tv series in a different era, I hope they portray both main factions as somewhat believable. Both with solider numbers and tactics. Also, thanks Alan for calling out these scammer replies plaguing UA-cam, that they're not doing anything about.
7:53 A Republic commando players worst nightmare.
I always figured that a "unit" meant some number greater than a single trooper. Probably something along the lines of like 64 troopers per unit. This would make more sense as far as scale of the army as well as in business dealings. Cause when selling a lot of small products in bulk you tend to label it as a package or bundle deal.
The Separatists likely also had planetary defense forces and militias, because we learn Mina Bontary's husband died fighting the clones.
You should make a supercut sometime of all the PSAs you’ve given about dolphins throughout your videos
Fair warning to anyone looking up Travis Legends books, "negative attitude" towards the Jedi really undersells it. She was essentially the Warren Ellis of Star Wars Legends, producing amazing content as long as she didn't have to write for the most common character type in the genre (superheroes for Ellis and Jedi for Travis).
She was the only writer who didn’t put the Jedi on a fucking pedestal, like they were infallible Gods or something. Also for the characters who had aversions to Jedi it made sense in the story. Why should Mandalorians - who by all means have always been on the opposite side, and whose culture is just so damn contrary to the monks- _like_ Jedi?
Why should the troopers trained by them be fans Jedi? In fact they are in the beginning, until they learn really quickly the Jedi are also just people and can make mistakes.
I don’t see a Jedi-hating attitude in Traviss, but in her characters. And that makes sense. You wouldn’t groan for a Sith to dislike Jedi either, right?
Karen Travis's
4 books
Hard Contact
Triple Zero
True Colors
Order 66
Best books in the Star Wars Canon
These comments give me hope. Seeing Karen get the respect she deserves.
@@dharper3619 While those are my favorite, those aren't her only SW novels. She also wrote Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines and Revelation, Star Wars The Clone Wars (movie novelization), and The Clone Wars, No Prisoners.
@@HistorysRaven Thanks Raven- I don't believe I read Bloodlines- I can't remember- I did peep The Clone Wars (movie adaptation) The CW, and I missed No Prisoners... I will probably order that last one for sure!
Well, in US Army common usage, a "unit" is typically used to refer to a Battalion of troops, so around 500 to 1000 guys, depending on the type of troops and mission. Of course, the Republic of Star Wars isn't the US Army so they could be using it to refer to some other numerical structure, but that was how I always took it: as thousands of Battalions.
This vid was pretty similar to how I viewed it. I actually have a much darker view though. The only systems that had good defenses were those who had the wealth and population to develop planetary and system wides defenses. Meaning mostly Core worlds, at the expense of Mid-Rim and Outer-rim worlds, had the means to protect themselves. And they had this because of the exploitation of smaller and less developed systems
I think it’s also important to recognize that the army was a distraction and means to spread the Jedi out to a point so thin that they would be able to swiftly eradicate the ones left. That’s why Jango was the original clone, because he beat a Jedi in close quarter combat. Since Palpatjne was always controlling both sides of the battlefield it didn’t really matter how many clones he made. He could make the clones appear as strong, or as weak as he’d like. I also wonder how much money it cost to create the droid army vs the GAR.
Yes , this is the best explanation, palpatine knew the cis stood no chance because they were nothing but his puppets who he was betraying and expending , at just a few million the clones were enough for me their real targets the jedi
Thank you for your videos, Alan. At least we got one Star Wars UA-camr who understands neither the clones nor the Stormtroopers were the grunts of their time, but rather the special forces. Especially the Stormtroopers. Sadly no canon material does actively feature the imperial army, so that most people believe stormtroopers are just goons when they‘re highly trained specialists.
Solo and especially Andor shows Imperial Army holding low-value planets, as opposed to Stormtroopers who are sent to high-value Imperial operations like Jedha, Scarif, defending the Death Star, and assaulting known locations of the main Rebel forces.
The other part of that though is that they really did seem like the foot soldiers since elite troops don't tend to be on guard duty
The biggest issue I had with the Clone Army is the Emperor saw them as expendables. NO Warrior is Expendable. Even if they are 5 or 6 year old Clone Warriors. At least the Bad Batch always use the Stun Setting when they have to take out other clones to achieve their objective, so they don't have to murder their own brothers.
The emperor never intended of keeping the clones around, thus they were expendable. He wanted to transform society into a Sith like society and the way he was doing that was through the imperial army, requiting normal people into the armed forces so that when the rebels fight and defeat imperial forces, the citizens of the empire lose their friends and family on the front lines, increasing support for a more authoritative Empire with more and more draconian laws.
This is also why Palpatine used droids for the separatists, because the populace weren't willing to die in a war on the republic and he needed them to die fighting the empire instead. All this fighting and dying is to sow division, conflict and hatred which empowers the Sith emperor. His ultimate goal is to create a loyal fanbase of cult like followers that worship him, filling his ranks with psychopaths. All his machinations is to bring out those psychopaths and the heroes to oppose them so they could be annihilated. All to create his Sith society with him on top being worshiped like a god.
So this is why he considers all his forces expendable, he revels in the death and destruction as it furthers his goals of domination.
@@GeneralBlackNorway Its whats currently going on in Russia right now. By, costing the lives of your people; they don't turn on you especially if there is enough fear. They attack their "enemies". Its why the outer rim was where the rebellion grew as well as a few senators. The core worlds went along with it for the most part.
@@GeneralBlackNorway The Emperor wanted to rule absolutely as an almost cultlike figure and would always reserve absolute power, especially when he dismisssed the Senate and put the Galaxy on edge by building two Death Stars. The point was to rule absolutely. But he never wanted to get caught in the day-to-day governance. He allowed Grand Moff Tarkin to seize power within the Empire who ultimately was acting as a despot in his own right in the Outer Rim. He wanted to retire and work on training new pupils and rediscovering ancient Sith secrets, artifacts, texts, etc. like on Malachor. Doing Sith stuff was his goal while he wore the crown but he didn't want to get caught up with any rebellion at any given moment and wanted Tarkin and Vader, an uneasy duo, to basically control the military and use the Death Star to ensure his continuous and uninterrupted rule so long as they were absolutely loyal.
They use stun, except when the clones are in aircraft in which they just kill them.
Palpy always wanted an army of brainwashed force using slaves under his thralldom. Was that so much to ask for? lol
To think as wise as Jedi Master Yoda was he was no military expert. He brought specialist in saboteurs into the front lines when they should have been sent ahead of the main Force to cause confusion and chaos. The droids would never have been activated after explosions would have rung out in the storage depots from the commandos attacking the complex everywhere at once
To be fair we've always just assumed that unit=1 clone and battles in Star Wars have always been rather small in what's supossed to be a galaxy of Hundred Billions because that makes it easier for the viewer to get more attached to individuals and makes battles easier to follow.
hundreds of *trillions which is roughly a thousand times more than what you said
@@buddermonger2000
Hundreds of quadrillions.
I'm my head I always equate the amount of clone number to the 2000's 2D version, because those battles were absolutely massive. Even the battles in space had massive troop carriers, and huge fleets of fighters
Scammers should flip a coin on live tv, heads they fed to a Rancor ,tails it's into the Sarlacc they go. Great work buddy keep it up.
I believe a channel put the number to be around 6 million for cannon and 64 million for legends.
Great vid GenTech. A fascinating look at troop numbers.
Thanks for the scammer warning, been seeing those alot lately. I always report and block them whenever they show up.
8:40 I would argue division size, as this would be the only way they could have stood up to the droid army
I just realised that the background you use is suppose to be the Ukrainian flag? That is a cool tribute to those fighting for freedom.
Thank you for a great video yet again. These clone wars videos made me re-watch the show again.
I hadn't noticed that... and it's cool.
The banter in this video today is 🔥 and on point👌👍
Idk if other cloning sources were noted in canon, but in legends they had a spartii cloning facility on the moon of coruscant during halfway to the later stages of the clone wars; which was used to supplement the kaminoan clones.
I think one of the source books in legends (will have to come back and show where it was stated) a unit was a full battalion, 576 clones.
So 200,000 units were made were ready and a million in reserve. Plus the 2 million added later when it was brought to the Senate to be voted on.
Like I said before, spartii cloning sources were started to being used to make clones faster and also from other templates other than jango.
Plus the assortment of Planetary defense forces that assisted the clones during some battles.
So the the clone numbers were definitely well into the billions by wars end.
I'm coming forth as a member of Alan's anti-dolphin network. I've been monitoring the Gulf of St-Lawrence for three years now, reporting on beluga and several Atlantic dolphin varieties with the help of locals. They're surprisingly tame, but I'm keeping an eye out and not letting my guard down. I should have another set of positional reports by next week.
Would love to see a video on the judicial forces during the clone wars. They are mentioned briefly in canon and legends, but there is little said about what happened to their ground forces when they became part of the GAR, but they don really appear in any media about the war.
Big W for warning people about these dumb scams.
We always forget that clones aren't just foot soldiers as there are so many other jobs that we forget that need to be filled in for example: mechanics, pilots, naval officers, medical officers,... out of the 200,000 , 50,000 to 100,000 of those spots get filled in by them. A Venator can carry 7,400 personnel, including officers, pilots and enlisted crew + an additional 2,000 Troops. If we take a fully packed venator and do 200,000/9,400 = 21 Venators. 2,000 x 21 = 42,000 foot soldiers. Yes Venators don't require full crews to operate. But you also have a bunch of other ships and stations to operate during the war. My best guess is that "Unit" isn't just 1 soldier but a platoon size. If we do the math: 200,000 x 41 = 8,200,000, 8,200,000/9,400 = 872 Venators, 2,000 x 872 = 1,744,000 foot soldiers. making it bit more realistic to have at the start of the war.
Bro you're the only one that has addressed this in an actual video! You're a LEGEND!!!!! 🙌🙌🙌🙌
mainly because he's trying to find a way to explain it without just saying "poor writing" which is the usual answer to EVERYTHING
Halle Burtoni says "I propose the Republic purchase an additional 5 million clone troopers" (Pursuit of Peace). She doesn't say units. Maybe the writer of this episode missed the obvious military repercussions. If there are 1 trillion on Coruscant, then the galaxy may have on the order of tens to hundreds of trillions. Perhaps the 1.2 million and 5 million are only referring to troopers on the ground, not any of the starfighter branch and naval branch are made separately perhaps in other cities on Kamino outside Tipoca City in separate clone bills.
Someone once said that the Clone Wars is a misnomer. It is not a war between clones and droids but a civil war on populated planets across the galaxy, with clones and droids inserted on strategic fronts or for decisive effect. Most populated worlds would have a standing professional military that would defend the local sector, although they were less useful for far off expeditions and campaigns away from home for political reasons. The Republic military also included volunteers of non-clones in many branches outside the GAR who outnumbered the clones but were serving on the sidelines in things like friendly occupation of Republic worlds, maintenance and repairs, logistics, and intelligence. The Clones really did bear the brunt of the war.
3:48 - Anyone else imagining FMA in all this? Hughes wasn't "special forces," but he did work in places which brought him into contact with information that, while not explicitly top-secret, was enough for him to be able to realize the conspiracy ages ahead of everyone else.
Part of that was also his proximity to the Elric brothers, but still. There's potential here.
Oh my goodness, I read Republic Commandos growing up! Such good books with great idea exploration.
The scabbard looks cool but rather odd since one doesn’t usually carry a lightsaber in a scabbard while ignited.
At least the Disney parks lightsaber sheaths give the impression that it’s not necessarily a lightsaber one is carrying. It could be some illegal beskar staff one is carrying in that sheath.
Now, a scabbard that carried some sort of glowing blunt “training” swords that are embewed with the force would seem to be cool.
Having those swords that were associated with the Jeedai Rangers or the very ancient Sith in one’s collection of lightsabers would be cool. It would also be cool that one could use one of those force embewed swords to spar with another who is using a lightsaber.
Sadly, for cosplayers, there's just no nice solution is there? You can have a lovely saber hilt hanging at your belt looking cool, but where to put the neo-pixel blade? And the screws and the wrench you're gonna have to fiddle with to light it up? To say nothing of a spare battery! I doubt myself that scabbards are gonna be the way to go, since we never see them in any incarnation of SW.
We do not know how much effort it took to make one clone. How much planning and extra construction it took to make Kamino capable of making so many troops.
10:08 Shaak-Ti when going undercover.
Stripping Battlefields is a tradition that goes back literally 1000's of years. Who are you to challenge Tradition.
the magic wielding generals, sort of level stuff out. if the droids had multiple Sith then the JEDi and clones would lose, but the sith tend to backstab and infight right become total victory. balance
also the quality of the clones is what made them formidable for the droids. droids cant change very well, and were inferior in combat skill. 1 clone tropper can take on a B1 a B2 , with some tools a Drioika that mainly needed surprise to work.
the best way to make sure it's really the person making the videos is always ask them to put a heart next to the comment so they can prove their who they say they are and usually they just give up after that
Or just see the ✔️ or the gray
They don’t respond to anything, they’re bots.
I would argue that amount of junk in Earth Orbit does offer some protection against planetary bombardment.
People have argued that Lama Su might have meant "Unit" as a military group or division or formation. So it would be 200,000 x the number of the unit. Which some pre-disney estimates ranged the clones being in the trillions. Which they would require such numbers to engage in interplanetary wars.
That’s not really how Star Wars combat is.
Stuff like Blockades didn’t need hundreds of ships to cover the entire planet… you could blockade a planet with only a dozen of vessels.
Same things goes for ground forces.
Combat is relatively small scale.
So Using One million clones to take a planet is pretty average, and some planets only took a a few dozens of thousands of clones.
Stuff like force multipliers can make combat with insane scales inefficient and lead to more deaths.
@@PeterMuskrat6968 It's not really how star wars combat works??? You realize this is a story where people literally send army vs army in giant fields, the way people fought in the civil war. Just going head first at each other. We literally see that in Episode 2 on Geonosis.
Stuff like Blockades didn’t need hundreds of ships to cover the entire planet… you could blockade a planet with only a dozen of vessels.
You realize how many planets there are in this galaxy right? And I was talking more or less about the troop numbers NOT the ship count, I actually don't think the Republic had as many ships as their actual army, which would mean an army in the trillions is needed.
Are you watching the clone wars cartoon or something and you REALLY think an entire planetary war is settled with a battle between 200 droids vs 200 clones and some jedi? You understand that these are scaled down for CG effect limits/reasons, right? The armies we are seeing are likely much larger than what we are in total seeing.. and these are battles of ONE part of the planet. If droids won a battle in Canada, does that mean the entire Country is lost, or the Entire Earth is conquered? Come on.
Second, on average Earth's military force, combined with all military combatants of all countries is around 200 million.
So if we use that number on average (Considering , and a planet cannot even handle the CIS, that implies they sent at least double the amount to the planet (400 million), the Republic would have to counter that with an equal or larger force.
It was also confirmed in SW Rebels by the strategy droid, that the CIS always had more numbers than the Republic, and the amount of time it took to grow more clones was slower than building battle droids, and that the growth rate of droid vs clone, was in favor of the droids, thus if the War had been ongoing down to the last troop, it would've been in favor of the droids. So an army in the trillions would STILL be too small. C'mon dog. Less Star Trek, more Star wars.
Love Love Love KT's Republic Commandos. Glad you made this video
I'd actually always understood it like this, with the Clone Army and attached Jedi Generals and Commanders to be sort of force multipliers to be deployed to Republic Planets who's own defense forces were getting hit pretty hard, to spearhead the liberation of conquered planets and to forcefully subvert the sceptical ones with shows of force.
I think of the clones as the United States Marine Corps, in the sense that the planetary defense forces are larger, more spread out, and lesser trained, to provide entrenched support, and have the clones be given superior training and equipment to that of most soldiers in the galaxy. The clones would kick down the door, and the PDF would hold down the fort once the planet is occupied. Then the clones are on the move again.
As mentioned by Padme, not only Clone Soldiers were fighting but PDF’s spanning millions of worlds.
That’d probably amount to a fighting force that can challenge the droid army
A simple motto of Special forces "always outnumbered, never out manned".
Another point to why the Seperatists didn't just wipe out the Clone Army is that they had no idea that the Republic had an army. (Dooku probably knew, but he was in on the Big Plan to undermine the Republic.) They were retreating from an unknown force with unknown capabilities and unknown total numbers.
For all the Seperatists knew, there could have been trillions of clones attacking all of their homeworlds in a huge surprise attack at that moment.
Karen Traviss books were amazing. My biggest disappointment is that her series was never completed. Each character was unique with their own story, own personality. The skills and military understanding was the best out of all the books written, they were more war stories than Sci fi and I love them.
While not a proper ending. If you got to her blog she does highlight how she intended to end the series.
@@bishop4077 I don't think that would help me. I think it would make it worse the teasing of it.
To be fair, without spoiling anything, she is specific enough to complete most of the story lines. The problem I found was it was very quick and concise.
@@bishop4077 I might try it then. I just have my own head cannon for it.
The point, I guess, is that the droids where as cheaply produced as possible, so they could have great numbers. But it was costly in battle, because they were never really good at anything.
Maybe part of it also ties into the NCO Gap seen in the Russian invasion of Ukraine. You have soldiers on one side who are actually punished for proceeding out of micro-directed turn, while on the other you have soldiers whose goal is solely to get the job done, details left to them. Whatever restraints Palpatine put Dooku under, it's hard to imagine that not playing a role.
One of the best Generation Tech videos by far
When it comes to things like this, I find the answer is often that writers have no sense of numbers.
I would like to see a clone wars series that focuses on the non-clone troops that served during the war. I mean with planetary defense, judicial, and militia forces that saw as much combat maybe more than the clone troopers
You know, Clone Troopers were like Imperium's Astartes. Major plot armor.
Or rather the CW's idea was to whittle down the Republic, create fodder to the machines and Jedi. This way the Jedi were dehumanised and easy to fall to the dark side.
no way could a clone take on an astartes
@@damienrichards7216 That's not the point. Not direct comparison, but the idea of it. Quality over quantity.
I guess the Battle of Naboo would be an example of PDF's doing some work.
That's a very good theory. It also lends to defensive forces being very well trained and equipped for the area they are defending, making them more capable than an external force that has to adapt to the terrain. Also, it makes logistics of the defensive force much simpler and easier than the logistics of an external force.
The clone army was at least several billion clones. 200K units plus a million more doesn't literally translate to 1.2 million clones, but each unit is basically a military unit, like the 501st Legion or the 212th Attack Group. Each Clone Legion can have up to 9000 clones or more. Multiply that by 1.2 million, and you've got billions of clones right off the bat.
Each clone is a unit because they are products. There’s no way there were billions.
@@liftedmarco4976 Nonsense. The Kaminoans were talking about a military force, not simple products. Hence the term "unit" would refer to entire legions. Not to mention that there's millions of Republic worlds, and yet most of them had clone garrisons. So they each at least had a couple thousand clones milling about.
@@HolyknightVader999 yeah I don’t think that is what she means. In my opinion, the context of that scene from episode two makes it clear she means clones, not regiments or legions, they are all about business and would talk in business terms. Also it would make no sense why they sent so few clones to Genosis if there were 1.8 billion clones available.
@@liftedmarco4976 Because they have other worlds like Coruscant to guard? Because there's a galaxy-wide Separatist movement and Geonosis is just one of their bases? And again, they were speaking of an army, so the word unit would logically mean a military unit like the 501st Legion. The Republic has millions of worlds, and yet many of them had at least some minimal clone presence. Some even have large clone garrisons. You cant do that if you have less than 2 million clones.
@@liftedmarco4976 It does make sense, because of what you need to get them there. You need a massive fleet, and said fleet needs escorts. So there's just a massive limit on how many you could reasonably deploy on short notice.
That said, it also doesn't make sense for other reasons. If there are a billion+ clones, you need to feed and house them. Kamino has a population of 1 billion, so you're talking about more than doubling the population. But it'd be more than that, because she says "well under way"... that says there are also a lot that aren't at that stage yet. So it is probably safe to double the number up again. Then there is all the support needed. Food production, day care, housing construction... and let's not forget those training facilities. All of which need maintenance and support. And then there's equipping them. You need not just the clones, but also their armor and weapons. Including heavy weaponry. These are probably mostly imported, but this whole thing is supposed to be under the radar, so that should theoretically limit the scale.
But that said, who knows what a unit actually is. Kamino's standard for military clones might be a squad, sort of like a company that sells by the case. Or it could be a single individual. I don't think it would refer to an entire legion, as, even if they focused almost exclusively on military clones, most of their customers would probably have relatively small orders. And if they weren't mostly military, then you wouldn't use a unit like legions. Overall, though, well, you sort of have to twist what is said, to what it would actually take to wage war on a galactic scale, to make it work as best as possible. One thing you can be sure of, though, 1.2m clones isn't enough for even a single planetary campaign.
Because captain fordo can solo the whole droid army on his own
My understanding is that Tipoca city had 1,2 million by the time of Geonosis 1, but there are also other facilities. And one basic Clone is worth more than one b1 Droid. And thats a basic one, not a Commando, ARC, ARF, Captain, ... basically while the scale might have been right of the Clones were much more advanced than the Droids. And to that they had numerous Jedi able to fight on the front lines as well. And as you mentioned planetary defence forces capable of fighting like for example the Mon Calamari.
Or a TL;DR: Republic Army based, Droid army cringe
Slight correction, it had 1.2 million ready, or near ready, that didn't include the ones still in incubation tubes
@@calebbarnhouse496 oh yea thanks dont know how I forgot that.
I'd say that it was not 1,200,000 troops but larger units as that would just make so much more sense.
Actually rampart mentioned how they were decommissioning millions of clones “not fit” for service. But we see even as they are decommissioned in the outpost episode. Clones were still serving. So they were more the. A few million.
We NEED a Commandos TV series that takes place DURING the clone wars!
Yes
Yes
I have been saying this
The Nulls/ARC Troopers/Commandos
Karen Traviss book series was just AWESOME
0:20 don't worry about it, they do this with every channel
Ah yes, fake accounts that “give out prizes”. Must be a dolphin trick. Those sneaky bastards
(before watching the video) it was small because palpatine only needed enough clones for a few specific set-piece "battles" that he already knew the outcomes of- remember, palp was playing chess against himself throughout the entire war and had decided from the start how everything was going to go.
I've always loved that SW left the exact number open so fans can have their own characters
I absolutly love the Republic Commando books and I'd be so fkn happy to see a live action series about that or even just a apperance of Omega Squad in the Bad Batch
Also a video dedicated to that squad would be epic
I got a scam comment on one of my comments yesterday. I had a pretty good ideat it was and left it alone. Thank you for acknowledging the problem.
Feel free to report them yourself.
I too appreciate Karen Travis through her contributions to the Halo Franchise with the Kilo5 trilogy
Excellent assessment.
I get scammers like that with lot a you tube videos it disgusting. Respect bro my Shibb
0:15 uuhh...I already gave those guys my SSN...
"Young fool. Only now, at the end do you understand."
IIRC, there was at least one arc in the clone wars where the clones had to fight a mixture of droids AND local planetary defense forces on a planet that had presumably been one of the founding Separatist Worlds. Considering several thousand worlds were part of the initial Separatist movement, realistically speaking the "Separatist Core" should have been incredibly difficult if not nigh on impossible for the Republic to take by themselves if they were a smaller elite army. They even had to take Geonosis a second time.
Devil's Advocate. Droids drain resources. Power for marching power for firing. Metal for soare parts. A billion soldiers in the field would require some quartermastery!
The galaxy in Star Wars in unbelievably large and populated.
I fully agree.
The Galactic Republic was incredibly decentralized that it resembled more UNO or the early USA than a federal state like e.g. Germany.
It was only under the Empire that a true centralization was attempted but given that the Empire lasted only 20 years it had to fail by default.
Travis’ books were fantastic
I’m kind of thinking partly, the Separatist forces probably thought the Republic had far more clones than they were showing, since already the fact they even had the clones was a shock to all the commanders and forces, so it kind of makes sense that they’d rather fight the Republic in various places than all at once. Though I think if they knew that was all the Republic had, they’d have much rather had fought with everything they had
I have to disagree. A 'unit' in the military is not one soldier, it's a group of soldiers, often numbering in the hundreds. To say they had a million more 'units' on the way does not mean a million more clone troopers, it means a million more divisions/brigades/platoons, whatever. An actual army unit.
As a hoi4 player, we know exactly why the clone army was smaller but better than the Droid armies, the republic was going for a quality army rather than a large army.
I think we're over-looking quality of units. As well defended as the WWI trenches were, even a WWII army would have an easy time rolling over those defenses. Expand the disparity to WWI vs a current charge, and a smaller attacking force could likely defeat a larger defending force.
We see time and again that for the most part, the rank and file clones are vastly superior to the rank and file droids. That 100 to 1 advantage becomes much less impressive when one clone is worth several droids in combat. Now that's not all of the answer, but it's a factor to add into the mix to explain how the number disparity could mean less than it appears. The quality of clones vs the quality of droids alone turns that 100 to 1 advantage into a messily 20 to 1 advantage. Add in a few other factors, and it's not that crazy when you look at other battles in history when an army has no right to win, but they do.
As for the retreat from Geonosis, there is something to be said for the Separtists being caught mega off guard. It wouldn't be the first time a significant surprise strike causes an enemy to react badly. Again, that's not all of it since Palpatine was running the show for both sides, but it makes it somewhat believable even so. Thus hard to just point at it and say, "SEE!? They could have crushed us! Why didn't they?" Palpatine (or his lacky) could have come back with, "we caught them with their pants down. We rattled them so much they weren't thinking clearly. We're just very lucky they scrambled instead of really assessing the situation."
I never noticed he said units, not soldiers. That makes way more sense. Another thought is "well on the way" is very loose terminology. Knowing how perfectionist the kaminoans were they probably wouldn't let troops out to battle until they met ALL of their training requirements. So that statement could even mean "by the end of the month", which would mean there are a lot of units that were essentially ready and just being held back on technicalities. After all, the war hadn't started yet so they wouldn't even consider sending units out that weren't 100% trained.
This makes so much sense! Liked!
Good analysis!
11:40 can i ask where did you get this video? i just wanna find more information about the "Maluck" rifle the soldiers have in hands.
W for calling out the scammers
This strategy sounds pretty similar to the late Roman Empire, which faced similar problems, constant civil war, being vastly outnumbered by a less advanced military foe and no real avenues for expansion or plunder to make investing in a huge army worth it. So the famous legions were split in 3, the Limitanei: troops designed solely to harass and slow down advancing armies the Comitatensis: Professional, well trained troops designed to acutally fight the battles and the Palatini: Elite troops who acted as bodyguards/elite infantry and cavalry, it was cost effective and worked well. But constant civil war meant that there were pretty much none left by the fall of Rome
This is a common misconception, “units” refers to combat units (i.e. platoons) rather than individual clones, at least in the current canon. It took a while for this mistake to be rectified
“Deployed in parade formation on a massive battlefield with no cover in an area where their training gave them zero advantage…this is why most republic commandos did not trust the Jedi after this first battle.”
I’ve always thought this smear against the Jedi was bunk. They had operational and strategic command, but by and large the tactics would have been determined by the training the troopers had received on Kamino and by the decisions of clone officers. Are we really expected to believe the Jedi, upon unexpectedly receiving an army, would see fit to nitpick the tactics used by that army? There’s no reason the clones couldn’t have found cover or gone to ground while advancing if that was in fact part of their doctrine. The only reason they would have advanced in “parade formation” (which in the scenes more closely resembles open order formation) is because that is how they were trained to engage in such advances. Also note that the droids are not “dug-in” but are charging straight at the advancing republic forces.
Would it work in real life? Of course not. But this is Star Wars we’re talking about. Whether it be clone armor, blaster rifle range, etc. I believe there is a better in-universe explanation of the tactics in the Battle of Geonosis than “The Jedi didn’t know what they were doing and micromanaged the tactics used by the professional soldiers they just met.”