Non-Book Reader Review | The Wheel of Time Episodes 8 & Season 2 *spoilers*
Вставка
- Опубліковано 24 сер 2024
- Egwene decides to cut back on the jewelry, Elayne regrets Nynaeve quitting medical school early, and Mat saves the day with a magic vase from IKEA. What does a non-book reader think of episode 8 of #thewheeloftime and season2 as a whole?
#fantasy
Twitter: / elliotedits
Instagram: / ellioteditsyt
TikTok: / ellioteditsyt - Розваги
Amazon needs to give this series 10 episodes , so they do not need to rush it
No arguments here!
we'd just have wasted eps on Stephan like characters instead of the actual books.
I found Moiraine's behavior towards Lan to be a very realistic portrayal of a person in a relationship going through a very deep and painful crisis. She didn't just fail at the singular task to which she's dedicated her entire life-and for which she's sacrificed every joy and blessing-but she had the very essence of life taken away from her. Many people will recognize similar episodes in long friendships, marriages, etc-a loved one lashing out bc of pain, fear, shame, seemingly intent on burning all their bridges. Lan's behavior is, similarly, a realistic portrayal of a very loyal friend or partner (notwithstanding the tree-peeing fashionista interlude). Nynaeve's going through a similar failure arc-she's not just useless at channeling, but now also at the one thing she's supposed to be good at. Her comeback will be glorious.
That's an interesting take I can get behind 🤔
You're definitely right about Nynaeve's comeback! Can't wait to see it on screen!!
Agreed. I also think Moiraine was actively trying to push Lan away to protect him. She was certainly still trying to help Rand, including going after Lanfear.
I agree. I mean Moiraine is clearly characterized as someone who had experienced a trauma, a violation; how she acted is how people who have been recently traumatized oftentimes act.
Her arc also mirrors Rand’s. Both Rand & Moiraine have pushed their loved ones away and continue to do so throughout most of season 2. They do this because they both believe it’ll keep their loved ones safe. The finale is both of them starting to deal with their trauma and realizing they’re stronger letting their friends be around them. They can’t do it on their own.
and what was the consequence for the story: we had four episodes in which little actually happened to advance the plot and we got long stretches of dreary cinema. Lose-lose. And what we mostly do is overlook a basic question: why did Ishamael shield her and then invert the weave? This would not stop any female channeler from knowing she was still capable, only that she might well not know (as the shield would take the feeling of the One Power away from her) It would delude her but would fool nobody else. So we had long scenes at Adeleas/Verin's farm in close contact with none of them wondering why Moiraine thinks she can't channel. They could not see the weave (only males could) but they would know she could channel but apparently either refuses to or has gone mad. And that would have come up, among these realistic people you say we watching deal with their problems. So it was a Mystery Box and a particularly idiotic one. It did slow her but really only strung an irritating storyline out. Way below what we expect from Ishamael. I figured out she was not stilled in episode two (just as we knew not-Sauron was Sauron right from THAT go also). Just a waste of plot and causing a lot of downbeat acting in a series that needed an attitude lift.
I appreciated the rant countdown warnings. It gave me time to gird my loins.
Haha! Just as I intended
It came to me today why Moiraine was the way she was with Lan.
We know her dedication to the Dragon Reborn supersedes everything to her, so she hide the fact that Rand was alive from Lan at the end of last season (at Rand's request), but she had a feeling they didn't defeat the DO at The Eye of the World. While at Verin's house she was doing research on the Forsaken, but if she had told Lan what she was doing, she would have had to tell him Rand was alive sooner, which might have jeopardized her plans with Rand and Logain. After the attack with the Fades she deiced to send Lan away to protect him for a couple of reasons, 1. He wasn't as effective against Shadow Spawn without the bond, which she couldn't unmask, 2. Aes Sedai defend their Warder's like the Warder's defend them, she didn't feel she could protect Lan any longer, which is what the whole thing about them being equals, or he being her better was about.
And because she can't lie what she does pushes him away instead, and I think we got a few really good examples (esp. with Moiraine's sister, but she did this with Suian too). So when she can't lie, she just won't say anything and push people away.
I really like this analysis! I'm going to go ahead and add this to my head cannon. I think it'll make rewatches of season 2 even better. Thank you for the comment!
wheel of time is suppose to be about people understanding they need help to overcome obstacles, so egwaine getting out of the ei-dom by themselves is kinda against the point
I'm in two minds about it. On the one hand I think it makes better TV in the short-term.
On the other hand, long-term storylines won't have as much emotional payoff. Thinking about a future scene of Egwene on a tower... Won't be as emotionally rewarding now
She fully released the bond because she expected to die at the Eye, which felt identical to the bond being masked to Lan. She couldn’t do anything to fix it because she (thought she) was stilled.
That would make sense 🤔 I'm gonna choose to believe this is cannon!
Oh shit, this makes so much sense
One thing regarding Nynaeve and Elayne (Which I do think had 1 too many "moments") Nynaeve already lost her daughter in the arches and now she just linked with someone who was just killed (Her damane) with a crossbow bolt. She was likely in shock among other things. Throw that in with her block.
The Moraine & Lan thing was odd, though that is part Mat actor leaving, part Covid and also when you have someone like Pike you can't make her disappear for a season. (They had to re-write last 2 of S1 and a lot of S2)
Which of course really altered Mat's arc, though his moment is blowing the horn and beyond anyway really. (Though I miss some of his early humor)
And for non book readers who might not have caught it... Ingtar reveals a "lady from Carhien" helped get the horn which was Selene aka Lanfear. You can guess the little breadcrumb for his loyalties and possibly feeling guilty and trying to redeem himself buying others time. (Not as open as it was in the books, but it IS there)
And many people forget one of the most critical plot armors in all the books and the show (though poorly explained so far on TV). Ta'veren. The pattern makes things fall into place, even more so around the core group.
Yes ta'veren can be silly, but it IS high fantasy and so either you like it or you do not! (I love it lol)
14 core books, over 4 million words (GOT is only what 8? and 1.7 mil words).... one of the most massive stories ever, if you understand truly how massive it is... you realize how good seeing it on TV at all is quite amazing.
May you always find water and shade! (And some Oosquai!)
Always on the look out for Oosquai 🤣
I agree with a lot of what you said. I'll talk more about it in my book reader review, but the series is hitting all the right character/emotional beats it needs to... It's just the journey to those beats that can be a bit clichéd.
Overall though, seeing the books on TV is always a thrill!
@@ElliotEdits Good point about being a bit cliche'd! I would have to agree there, and maybe a bit cheesy lol.
@@phantiasmic Like a big pizza! Cheesy, but satisfying
Moiraine is fully comitted on guiding and protecting Rand. And as she couldnt access her power anymore, it was even more likely that she will end up as collateral damage.
I think thats the reason she tried so hard to push Lan away. To protect him.
That tracks! Thank you!
Book four is probably my favorite of books that Jordan wrote himself. Book 12, a gathering storm, is my favorite of the series. Books 13 and 14 are incredibly good as well.
I feel exactly the same way. Always swapping between book 4 and 12. I wouldn't suggest Caitlin start with The Gathering Storm though
seconded
Yeah, you absolutely do not want to pull the arrow back out. It would do far more damage than a push through. Best bet, though, would be surgical removal in a more controlled environment.
But a crossbow bolt? I dunno, it just looked way too painful for that level of limping for me 😅
@@ElliotEdits triage, you do what you gotta do. Lol
But a through shot is a cleaner wound and would heal better. The head of the bolt will cut through, pulling it would cause more tears and lacerations due to the shape. I imagine Nynaeve would have also bandaged the wound and compressed it to help staunch bleeding.
@@feralart Fair enough 😅 I think the director could have done a better job of making it look like the right decision. Definitely looked like Elayne is gonna be on crutches for a while. Hope the White Tower has elevators 🤣
@@ElliotEdits If only they had saved Ryma!
@@devlin76 very true!
About the crossbow bolt in Elaynes leg, the only thing she forgot to do was break off the fletching. Other than that, she did the right thing because, typically, any arrow or bolt used in war would have a really nasty point on it specifically to cause as much damage as possible and pushing it the rest of the way through would actually cause the least amount of damage at that point.
A few people have pointed this out to me and I have to admit maybe it was the right thing for Nynaeve to do. Still sticking to the argument that she wouldn't be climbing any stairs minutes afterwards
I'm still wondering why they didn't just break the arrow in two.. I guess a broken arrow means splinters possibly stuck in the wound, and uneven edges scraping and causing more damage, but I still wonder about the fletches and their impact =/
@Ferdawoon I don't understand why she didn't break it off either because the feathers would cause some serious infection normally, but it being WoT, maybe they don't have to worry about that so much because of Healing.
@@Ferdawoon feathers on the brain! Gonna need some strong Oosquia to sterilise the wound too!
@@richardlohne8595 secretly Nynaeve was still pissed about the 'we tried your way' comment 😅
4:09 - I did actually laugh out loud at that text!
But I do agree with you, there are moments in the future where the intimacy of the Warder Bond could be elaborated further.
We get it Rafe! You think the warder bond is epic. Now please dedicate some screen time to explaining Perrin's powers 🤣
caitlyn (caitlin? katelyn? ???) would probably enjoy new spring, since she likes moiraine. its also a bit shorter than the other books too
Got it on the second go! That's a good shout! Need to find myself a copy of it 🤔 kinda promised myself I'd only buy second hand versions of the book... so far got 1-10 and only spent about £11
@@ElliotEditsnice! im in the US and always look for WOT books in used stores but have never found any besides new spring haha
@@chadstacy 🤣 the irony! I guess it's good people want to keep hold of them at least
Ok, I'll agree the fire dragon was cheesy, but the horn/mat moment had me howling with joy
Great moment.... terrible prop design
I feel that the reason the heroes thing felt cheesy is because the show did literally nothing to invest the viewer in it. In the book the horn is the center piece but in the show its an afterthought, so especially non readers would literally have no reason to care really
Very good point! Needed more than a couple of scenes of Loial saying 'hey remember the horn, that's important'
@@ElliotEdits 100%
And there's almost no mention of the heroes themselves other than tiny whispers, so who cares about them you know?
The whole story with the bond and moiraine being shielded is about keeping pike on screen during s2 as she disappeared in the books. It was not my fave arc to say the least, but non readers seem to have liked it. Overall i enjoyed the episode but i do know why it split readers. Engagement figures and ratings show it went down extremely well with the wider public.
All my friends who watch the show, but haven't read the books, really enjoyed it as well. The writers are definitely doing a good job at bringing in new fans, and I'm all for the community growing!
@@ElliotEdits Definitely! two friends who i got to watch the series are now reading the books :)
@@tw7998 that's brilliant!
As a book reader, it felt like they hammered on the warder bond a bunch of times from a bunch of different angles. However, when I think about non-readers I suspect it did not seem like overkill. I also think some pretty important deaths and bondings will be happening earlier in the show than readers realize, so it is going to be important that all viewers understand what it means.
@@devlin76 I just hope I get to see the golden crane scene :)
First! Discovered your videos because my wife and I are loving WoT tv series. Love your videos, editing styles and review 😊
Thank you! Glad you guys are enjoying the series 😊 are you book readers? Do you have a favourite character?
Nope, sorry, never read the books. Our favorite characters are Eugwene or Morraine. But we felt they have done a decent job of making the audiences invested in all the characters stories that it’s hard to choose. Especially Matt’s story, did not expect the payoff to work for us nor even saw it coming
@@jadenkorr9342 It's great to hear the show is being enjoyed by more non-book readers! That will be the reason Amazon make a lot of the changes they do, and clearly it's working.
My favourite character is Nynaeve. There's a lot more for her to do in the show. Just wait and see!
Love how you can talk about things you disliked, but still be so nice about it. I‘m only getting positive vibes here 👍
@@junibacken729 only positive vibes allowed
I liked this review by a non reader. Keep her unspoiled.
I also liked your rants lol.
Thank you! You're right, musn't loose my USP
100% agree with Elliott and the Bond.
Since they had to make the Aes Sedai more "human" and readable than in the books, I can get Moiraine's behavior towards him. However, the whole notion of simplifying the shielding vs stilling concepts was painful to me, like why can't they tell the difference between shielding and stilling/burning out? Seems cheap, and flattening of the magic, but w/e.
It deffinitely wasn't my favourite storyline, but I get needing to Moiraine (Rosamund Pike) more to do. Need to justify having her on the poster
@@ElliotEdits quite right! I was rather happy with most of how they ended the season though. They managed to put in some classic mythological symbolism with Egwene's hair right before she's freed; Matt's character arc is actually off to a real start, which is miles ahead of his book arcs in terms of personal development; they're doing alright with Nynaeve as frustrating as her line is... but the way he meets Elayne is soooo infuriating to me because it makes rand even more of a friggin lost puppy than he already is!
Oooooo, btw, remedying the arrow is a complicated first aid topic depending on several factors including ditection of the hit, type of arrow head, major blood vessels, and "standing soldier" triage versus more deliberate treatment. across the thigh like that, assuming no arteries were hit, I would have thought to push arrow head through so it can't do more internal damage, but break off both ends of the arrow so soldier (or Elayne, as it were) could still stand and limp without losing as much blood, until healing time. So, C- on Nynaeve's field surgery expertise LOL.
@@ElliotEditsThis is true and, unfortunately, the main story arc suffers terribly as a result. Just my opinion of course.
When I look at the show as a separate thing from the books, the final episode was very enjoyable imo! I hated Hopper's death (probably my all time low in the books as well), but I was a bit happier with Rand getting more screen-time even though the 'holymoly' moments from books 1, 2 and 3 were still missing. But man, I will miss Ishy! That actor was so wonderful! I wouldn't have minded them changing that plot-point from the books!
How about you, Elliot?🙃
I hated hopper's death too. A lot of tears! I will miss that actor too, but I do think it's important to recast the role considering the ending
@@ElliotEdits I actually skip that scene every-time I see somebody reacting to WoT!😅You're right about Ishy, although I am not certain they will recast him. Rafe said they would introduce a new Forsaken. Will he make Moridin stand on his own without being Ishy?
@@angelavm84Hmmm, I hadn't heard that but would be definitely interesting
@@ElliotEdits Could be lost in translation though. Difference between ' a new Forsaken' said to a book reader and 'a new Forsaken' to a show watcher.😅
Even separate from the books some of the decisions break the rules of their own show. The double A’dam thing was odd and it made no sense why Rand was injured so severely by the dagger.
Well Rafe Judkuns is dating a Warder after all. The actor playing Maksim, Taylor Napier and he are partners.
The bond is clearly very close to his heart ❤️
long hollywood tradition of using the actors for sexual benefits continues besides his hate letter treatment of the actual books. Brandon Sanderson tore this series up just the day before for anyone who actually likes the books there is some satisfaction
Although it had room for improvement I loved season 1. Season 2…although still not perfect……was IMO bigger and better than season 1 in every way. The main critique I have of both seasons …as you both pointed out…is that the show often feels rushed. It just needs more episodes or more time per episode. The Shadow Rising is tied with Lord of Chaos as the best books in the series for me so I can’t wait for season 3!
If season 3 is as much of an improvement on 2 as 2 was of 1... We're in for a treat!
Brand new here, it was nice to see the insight of a non-reader. If you keep pushing her to read the books she's going to crack eventually and then you won't have that unique insight :).
You've got a point there! Maybe I should stop 🤔 don't want to lose that usp
I'm not a fan of using the books to explain, or justify, the show... So arguments like "it was bad in the books as well" really fall flat for me. The show has the benefit of hindsight. After all, they've changed stuff elsewhere, haven't they.
Nor do I like the feeling of checklist-plotting the show gives off. We're yeeted from beat to beat with little regard for the narrative linkages that turns moments into a tale.
Lucky for the showrunners, people like me are apparently the minority.😏
I have to agree, the journey between moments is where the writing is weakest. This season I saw a lot of cliches like knocking people out to move the story forward.
yeah, the show version of the white tower must have a yellow sister on standby for concusions and head truma exclusively, lol@@ElliotEdits
🤣🤣 very true! @@andrewdemarco3512
I totally agree with you. It was a nice touching moment for non-book readers, but it’s such a waste of time for book readers. They could have done a better job without that scene and add time for more of the OG5.
The whole episode just needed an extra five minutes to allow scenes to breathe a little more
@@ElliotEdits I was thinking the finale should be 2 hours long! 😂 Most non-book readers rank this episode high on their list. As a book reader, I couldn’t separate myself from the books. Although I enjoyed it because I was quite emotional during the episode, there were so many WTF moments for me. I did cry for hopper and when Mat blew the horn though. 😅
@@AndyLuu72 the hopper moment had me in tears too
I've been working my way through the books, currently on "Winter's Heart", so I knew where the story was going. I came away from season two thinking that people that haven't read the books are going to incredibly lost with Perrin and Mat. The show really didn't do a very good job telling you what is going on with them. It didn't help that due to the end of season one being very different from the books, they had a lot of additions they had to make to get everyone to Falme.
I didn't hate most of the additions, but the entire Lan and Morraine story just irritated me to no end. Morraine just tossing Lan aside not only does not happen in the books at all, but it really doesn't work for her character. It just was not believable for me. I get that they had to do something to keep Rosamund on screen during the show, but I didn't like they way they handled it.
The horn bit also seem very rushed. There is quite a big deal made out of in the books, most of which did not make it to the screen. I was happy to spot Birgitte among the group though.
Final thought, they really took the whole Moghedian being referred to as a spider a bit too literally. Her character is supposed to be sneaky, always working from the shadows, and never attacking openly unless she's certain she has the advantage. The creepy slightly unhinged spider lady we got in the show didn't really work for me.
Over all, I think they've done a pretty decent job with the series. There really is just too much material to keep everything, and they seem to be trying to adhere to the spirit of the books, if not the letter. I really don't know how they plan to fit the entire book series into the show though. They can cut some of the books out entirely and still get to the end, but it would be shame to do it.
Thank you for your comments! All in all I agree with you, changes are necessary and the show being enjoyable is the main thing (which it is).
I hope it all results in the show being renewed so we get to see how the whole story plays out
Alas, the thing the writers made up completely (Moraine/Lan) was the weakest thing in the show. If they keep closer to the book, whether or not Pike has enough to do, it will be a stronger show imo. Indeed, now things were rushed because things that didn't belong were inserted. They did the same in S1, alas. Here's hoping for S3!
Crossbows are very powerful. The bolt would have already pierced the leg all the way through. You can’t pull it out because of the head. Best care would be to wrap it in place until you get to a hospital, but they had to move, so this was the best they had. If you leave it in while moving it can do more dmg.
I imagine she wrapped it and that was cut for time, but you aren’t at immediate risk for bleeding out from a leg wound unless thr femoral is hit, which it wouldn’t be there.
Fair point 😅 I still stand by the fact a staircase shouldn't be on Elayne's immediate to-do list
@@ElliotEditsCertainly not! But the daughter heir of Andor will not be stopped by such trifles!
@@thinggood1435 I would have loved to see a line of dialogue where Elayne turns to Nynaeve... 'You'll have to carry me'
@@ElliotEdits Now, that would have been a sight. Elayne/Nynaeve pop up on the tower piggyback style.
wish someone who have read the books(as the narrator for the audiobooks I have seem meeeeh) can tell me if Rand needed help from a female to make the firedragon or it was just PC content in the show for inclusion or something?
There wasn't a firedragon in the books. Just a regular cloth banner with a dragon on it. Rand himself was the one in the sky
I think technically rand fullfilled the prohpecy when he killed ishmeal. He was proclaimed in fire (he chanelled fire into his sword to kill ishy branding him with the heron) in the sky (on the tower), but Moraine's fire dragon made it more obvious to the people below that is what happened
Also, 100% DEFO READ IT, GURL! ❤
Fingers crossed!
6, 5, 7, 8, 3, 2, 1.
Interesting 🤔 thanks for sharing!
Moggy is my favourite forsaken so I can’t wait to see how they do her & her relationships with certain members of the EFF.
I feel like Renna got enough time in the end as they wanted to do the big avengers moment etc.
Heroes of the horn was epic and I was sobbing- it’s very cheesy but it’s so much cheesier in the books! This was just a toned down and perfect moment.
Agree on the warder bond stuff, I didn’t need a lot of it and im not sure how much show online did either. It’s cool but felt like it slowed everything down.
RIP Hopper. Gone too soon!
And now all I want to do is edit the ending with the Avengers theme playing in the background 🤣
@@ElliotEdits doooo it
Fire Rafe and cancel this garbage fire hate letter to the books. Brandon Sanderson tore this show to shreds just recently as well.
Take it season 2 wasn't for you?
@@ElliotEdits 30+ years a fan of the books and to get this level of casual disregard for the source material by Rafe only produces anger. Go ahead if you would, listen to Brandon Sanderson talking to Daniel Greene recently, he did write the the last three books in the series afterall and brought up dozens of times he told Rafe to not do the changes and was ignored.
👍👍👍🎡🎡🎡⌚️⌚️⌚️
Deja vu 🤔😅😉
@ElliotEdits Yes, I use the same distinct emojis for the show!
Thank You both for your refreshingly reasonable takes throughout Season 2.
While I agree that Episode 6 has the most impressive example of adaptation, with Egwene’s Damane Journey, I think you are both being too kind to Episodes 7 & 8… for different reasons.
Cinematography Elliot? I dunno mate, that thing looked more like Dumbledore’s rooster… or maybe a translucent peacock, than a Dragon.
Catelyn (I apologise if I’m misspelling) unlike you, I was disappointed again and again by Egwene’s escape from the a’dam and with what followed. The subversion trope as practiced by the WoT TV Show hasn’t been anything other than tiresome for me. And rendering Nynaeve & Elayne so stupid and inert was a crowning disappointment in that vein.
They had setup one of the better moments (imo) that Nynaeve had in the books, where the rescuers work together to save Egwene right at the point where she is losing hope. Instead they just ignored it in favour of what I found to be nonsensically accomodating plot development with respect to the effects and the mechanics of the a’dam.
I couldn’t help laughing throughout Egwene & Renna’s ‘final confrontation.’
What wasn’t a laughing matter at all, was the entire plot line involving Lan & Moiraine. Silly waste of time and confected conflict. Loathed every second of its unfolding. And the stupidity of their walk along the beach was a fittingly nonsensical conclusion.
The Seanchan were setup well, but for me, ultimately disappointed. First with their rank stupidity as scripted in contending with the Whitecloaks… and then the imbecilic design of their defeat at the hands of a 3 Oath Breaking Moiraine, just put the cherry on top of the letdown.
Hated everything about Mat’s storyline… from the jury rigged weapon, which seems to be replacing something altogether more impressive from the books, to the convenience of his place among the Heroes of the Horn - an attempt at Creative Parallels that came across as though it was written by a kindergartener.
I will rank the Episodes a little differently.
Episodes 1-6 were varying levels of watchable, notwithstanding the inconsistent quality.
I loathed Episodes 7 & 8 equally.
If Episode 8 of Season 1 wasn’t such a craptacular, I wouldn’t hesitate to rank them the absolute worst of the Series so far… for their internal inconsistencies; for their nonsensical denouements; for their misguided obsession with subversion… and for their total destruction of 2 of our 3 Ta’veren boys’ characters - where Rand is now established as a self involved, genocide inciting narcissist, and Perrin is a First Degree Murderer. Not a reluctant warrior, who killed in the heat of the moment while under attack, but a premeditated murderer who went looking for the man he intended to kill and obliterated him in homicidal rage.
That development doesn’t bode well for me, with respect to what comes next, in Perrin’s storyline.
In the end, I have to conclude that very little that occurred in the Season 2 Finale bodes well for what comes next. I shudder at the thought of what ridiculous imbecility they will insert to connect the gaping chasms in the Dragon Reborn’s journey so far.
Thank you for the detailed comment! I just wanted to quickly comment saying I'll give this a propper read through and reply later when I've got a bit more time :)
Why Moiraine was being awful to Lan the whole season:
In_show reason: She was afraid she'd get him killed hanging around her when she couldn't channel
Meta reason: Moiraine & Lan disappear from the narrative for large chunks of time & you can't have Rosamund & Daniel show up for 10 min in episode 1 & the last scene of episode 8
Very true! A lot of people have pointed this out to me. Rosamund needs her screen time, and I can't argue against more Daniel Henney 😅
@@ElliotEdits Without spoiling S3, I'm guessing they will softly contrive more screen time for Morraine/Lan. I forget how much you're read but Morraine was present with Rand when he travelled to Aiel Lands and when she returned again to Cairhein. My answer also speaks to the reason they emphasized the warder bond again, without spoiling the reason that is important in S3/S4.
Rafe just screws it up whenever he does anything with this show. He has 8 eps and needs to develop Rand, Mat, Perrin. But instead, wastes it on non book additions leaving the pay off last ep another lucy taking away the football rush job.