I just can't understand why they had to stray so very far from the books. I get it, stream line it for tv but when you're cutting sruff you shoudnnt be adding in new plot lines.
My biggest issue is that while Wheel of Time is an ensemble cast Rand is still supposed to be the main character of the story, but they keep taking away his early big wins and giving them to other characters. And while I can understand combining characters what happens in later seasons when the individual characters are far away from each other. Gaul is far more important to Perrin’s storyline than he is to Rand’s story but they’re giving his early story to Aviendha so is she going to leave Rand to follow Perrin and just abandon her book arc of becoming a Wise One? On top of that how are they going to portray Rand’s later schizophrenia like personality break and on top of that book wise there’s only one or two characters that exceed Rand in raw power from early on in the book but the show is trying to give him the “Worf Effect” but they haven’t shown how powerful he is in the first place so it falls short.
It was never just about Rand, if you look at any article that shows how many page time the major characters get Rand is pretty much equal with Egwene and in fact most of the main characters get huge book time. Even the books themselves tell us at the end that it was never just about Rand.
@@cazgreene3055 That's so wrong it's absurd. The entire series was ONLY about Rand. All events revolve around him alone. The Dark One's end game was not to kill Rand (thus perpetuating the wheel of time, bringing an age of darkness but allowing the Dragon to be reborn later to have the same fight all over) but to corrupt him to the shadow and end the wheel of time. Sure, he couldn't have won alone, Jordan makes that ultra clear, but it wasn't like they were equals. Not nearly. If there was no Rand they would have lost. If Rand had been alone they would have lost. But it's always about Rand. That's the problem with this show. They don't seem to understand that everything revolves around Rand. EVERYTHING. Taking away what he does, changing the events that make him who he is, is quite simply blasphemy. To put it simply, Rand is the Dragon of Time, but the show treats him as just another character. An unloved and quite feeble character.
@@cazgreene3055 I don't think anyone is saying it's only about Rand, but he is the central figure that the entire story revolves around and he is clearly the most powerful person on the side of Light from the end of book 1 onwards. The early books focus HEAVY on Rand and it's really as we get further and further in that the others start to get equal time. Still the EF5 all need to get their shine. My problem is all the time and attention given to minor characters that don't need it. Moiraine, Liandrin, Lan, a random dead warder. Moiraine is the biggest culprit here. Just because they got a big name actor to play her, they have thrown out huge chunks of development for the other characters that matter in order to appease her, I guess. Those episodes focusing on Moiraine and Lan are just wasted screentime that don't advance the actual canon story in any way. All they do is stroke actor's egos I guess.
@@talmanes4589 The early books focus so much on Rand because RJ at the time thought he was writing a trilogy, since he expanded the trilogy there were more POV chapters for other characters than Rand to allow for those characters to grow into what they needed to be for the story. The show is not trying for a straight adaptation of the books, because they know they are likely limited to 8 seasons or less, they are weaving in aspects of later books into the early seasons, in order to capture the essence of the whole story of the Wheel of Time, which takes the emphasis away from Rand more than "book purists" like. Therefore to make compelling TV they have to build up all the EF5 to keep those characters interesting for the viewers when it comes to their critical moments that are required for the eventual victory of the light. I agree there are interesting set up episodes that given they are limited to only 8 episodes a season seemed strange decisions at the time, but may pay off later down the line. Moiraine and by extension Lan being a bigger characters in the tv show than how she is portrayed in the early books is another set up for events that take place in Fires of Heaven (no spoilers here - if you know you know). If the show followed the books we'd basically have only a few scenes with Moraine and Lan the whole season which doesn't make sense imo. Liandrian turning from a cartoon villain in the books to being actually believably evil and the whitecloaks actually being competent but also misguidedly evil are good changes The comment about stroking egos might be true but come on you have to admit they are fantastic actors and make use of their talents rather than putting them in bit part roles. I'm sure when Shohreh Aghdasloo starts stealing the show in season 3 for another minor character as you put is (assuming she is playing Elaida as a lot of people think) there will not be many complaints (other than why are we now liking Elaida?)
I like thickskull's point. Personally, most objectives could have been met, if the showrunner's (and I know fans of Rafe disagree) obvious and polarizing tones and a close adaptation were constructed alongside each other. For example; the Wheel turns and a Rafe version of the Wheel could have been made wherein the Dragon was a girl and in his version of the Wheel many aspects were as he sees fit. A true adaptation could have been set aside as a later project for another. Rafe's version would change characters names and have them behave or impact in similar ways to an exact adaptation, then book fans yearning for a close adaptation would recognize the world, the magic, the foreshadowing etc etc and be not offended. Perhaps scoff or compare that Rafe's Dragon is nothing like Jordan's Dragon and so on. Rafe would have license minus the natural offense to tell his version, book fans could enjoy the themes and not get hung up on "that's not the book way" because it isn't trying to be the book. Simply another spinning of the wheel and how the Dragon Reborn defeats the Dark One. It's been years since I read the books. I stopped at book 9 because it was too long between release dates and the need to go back and start again was too much dedication, so I quit reading until they were finished and I have yet to complete them. So while I can understand the fervor about the Amazon/Rafe version being a poor and pathetic attempt at telling Robert Jordan's epic tale; I feel they missed an opportunity to set themselves up for success: capture the fan base, attract a wider fantasy audience in the video medium but isolate themselves from the exact adaptation requirements of a book so massive and detailed. Especially with the political/woke type themes introduced. It strikes as so simple to have accomplished all of that and yet here we are still lamenting how underwhelming Robert Jordan's story has been portrayed by Amazon/Rafe's version. Here's how I have approached this - my 14 year old step son and I were talking about books to read... "oh you have to read WoT by Robert Jordan and completed by Sanderson, but don't watch the Amazon series and think they are the same story, they aren't" I'm a fan of the Amazon series only because it's high fantasy done ok. I've had to put away the book fan because it is so disappointing when watching and thinking about the books, but as a stand alone series to watch, it's ok. I have never read the Witcher books but enjoyed the TV series and also thought it was OK, not fantastic, but ok. The book fans are also incensed. My older son is a huge Halo lore fan and was incensed by the TV series. I know nothing and thought the TV series was also Ok. Few things will ever be as good as a book I believe, because when reading a book it's ones imagination in the book that takes hold of the heart and mind, in a movie one is being told what it is. Never the same. My final point as even as abhorrent as Rafe's version is to me - it is still far better than 90% of the garbage on TV nowadays. So, I will continue to watch - just have to remove the book brain first!
I'm not really here to comment on the drama. What I will say is that 2 years between seasons is ridiculous. Rafe initially anticipated 8 seasons, can you really hold a captive and committed audience for 16 years? That's crazy. What will the actors look like by then? What will the landscape of streaming services be like? Will the general public be as invested in fantastical media at that point? Far too many variables.
Perhaps, Rafe Judkins can convince the Amazon executives that he can tell the rest of the story in one final season. A decade or so ago, it was quite common for shows to only have four seasons (The Man in the High Castle, Mozart in the Jungle, Mr. Robot). This way, we would at least get an ending.
Amazon treats the show like they don’t care about it. Marketing has always been essentially zero. As for socials/hype, nobody talks about the show. Review channels that review just about everything, dont even mention it.
There are plenty of review channels that cover this site. The problem is very few are anything but critical of the content, with good reason, and therefore Amazon ignores it. The show is a bag of shit painted to look like a bushel of apples, but no ones buying because we can all smell how terrible it is. It's a shame really, they had the perfect template for a great series and ruined it.
Promo for s2 was severely compromised by the SAG/AFTRA and WGA strikes (or rather, studios' refusal to treat workers fairly). They should have the cast and Rafe active on social media throughout s3's airing.
People like to say "well, they have to cater to a larger audience." I look at it a different way. If they can't even retain the core audience most inclined to like the show, then how do they expect to attract new viewers? They failed to please or excite the people who were trying their hardest to love the show and you think new fans unfamiliar with it are going to fall in love with it? I suggest a new policy, if something has millions of fans already, maybe you don't need to drastically change it to get millions more, maybe all you need to do is adapt it faithfully and expose more people to the already wonderful story you had at your fingertips. Or continue to make nonsensical changes because in your hubris you believe yourself an equal or greater storyteller than Robert Jordan was. I also think you can't underestimate how much hardcore fans effect the overall buzz for a show by driving social media and conversations about the show on platforms like this one and others. It's not the casual fans watching videos like this or posting about WoT on Reddit and Facebook. It's the hardcore fans, many of whom they turned off with their choices. Take myself for example, before s1 I was telling everyone who would listen they had to watch it and give it a chance. After s1 I lost all excitement for the show and while I watched s2 and it was better, I no longer tell anyone else they should watch it. I no longer watch as many videos like this one and this is the first one I have commented on since just after the end of s2, because I don't care to keep up with it anymore. I'll watch but my expectations are very low.
You make a lot of fair points but also seem to fail to understand how adaptation of a work as large as WoT works, especially with limited budgets and actors and a million other things that make adaptation necessary. I'm not suggesting that WoT is perfect or that every decision or change they've made was right, but I've spent hundreds of hours discussing the adaptation and why the show is not nearly as bad as armchair critics love to think. Personally, I think if they had adapted book 1 more accurately the show would've been DOA. It's too generic and too similar to LotR at the start. Also, S2 was awesome!
@@UnravelingthePattern I think that all changes made within an adaptation will have secondary importance to the level of quality of the adapted script. In my view, LOTR movies succeeded with the larger general non-book audience because the changes made (Tom Bombadil exclusion, exclusion of Fangorn fight at HelmsDeep, etc.) enhanced/did-not-hinder an already great adapted screen play that they had carefully developed for the movies. Also, note that HOTD is doing quite well in its Season 2 despite massive fan backlash due to the horrible GoT Season 8, purely because its a immensely well written script, hence all the changes made to source material were either accepted or ignored due to being overshadowed by the great script. In contrast, I think that WoT show was rejected by the general audience because its had glaringly amateurish and poorly written scripts, which could have been saved if the following changes were not made: 1. Dragon Reborn Mystery Box 2. Focusing more on supporting characters (Moiraine, Egwene, Nynaeve, Liandrin & Alanna) rather than giving Primacy to the 3 main characters (Rand, Mat and Perrin) - Very similar to the failed & now-cancelled Halo show adaptation 3. Giving the 'Anchor Being' Rand's hero moments to artificially prop up other characters 4. Fundamentally changing character motivations 5. Unnecessary scenes such as Tree-Pisser Mandragoran & Sad-Warder lol 6. Disastrous season finales especially season 2 which was disgraceful. 7. WoT tried to attract the mythic non-existent 'Modern Audience' instead of trying to appease its Actual Audience whom had bought over 90 million copies of this series. I think that this sentiment can be seen from the Nielson ratings number for season 1 which started from a respectable 1.1 billion minutes watched but ended at a disappointing 600 million minutes watched. I admit that for season 2 the writers strike was a significant hindrance but if the season 1 finale was Epic it would have invariably resulted in higher numbers than the disappointing 400-500 million minutes watched that we ultimately got. But if what WoTUp has learnt is true, WoT Season 3 would then ONLY need to generate around 1 billion minutes watched on average, which is to be honest a very easily achievable number IF a show is great (Reacher season 2 had more than doubled that value easily). So if WoT show cannot achieve that season 1 level viewing numbers then that's ultimately the fault of the showrunner and his team, since the targets set are quite reasonable. I can only pray for the God of War adaptation to come lol
I have to agree with the opinion here. It's too easy to try and justify the poor writing or social engineering of characters through the notion that the book is too large / too generic / too many locations and characters etc but the proposed outcomes were substandard and if anything destroyed the gravity of the situation and the impact of the three main characters (Rand, Mat and Perrin). Instead they focussed on the tier two characters of Egwene and Nynaeve and force changed Moiraine to fit the "celebrity status" of Rosamund. This show should have been so much more. The change to focus on the attack of Eammond Field in ep 1 was good until they eradicated any fight from the male half of the village. It had to be all "girl power". Poor decisions that alienate a significant number of people. I agree that the time between shows is likely the norm, so in effect the platform style does not suit an adaptation model for a show this big. in essence the show was doomed never to finish. They need to get back to a GOT timeline of every 12 months if they can to keep people franchised. It's a self fulfilling marketing prophecy. Instead the casual viewer will move on and jump on the "we hate ROP bandwagon". I want to show to course correct and drop the 🎤 but in reality I don't think the show runner or the writing room has it in them.
@@UnravelingthePattern What I think you fail to understand is I was expecting major changes, storylines merged, minor characters merged, storylines cut because there was so much source material that a one to one adaption was never going to be possible in live action (anime is another discussion). What I did not expect, and cannot forgive, is all the stuff they choose to add. They've added entire storylines for characters such as Moiraine, and Liandrin, and some forgettable dead warder. at the expense of the characters who actually matter to the story in the long run. They had so much source material they were going to have to cut a lot already, and they choose to make it worse by cutting more so they could insert their own badly written fanfiction into the story. If they had to cater to her in order to get her to take the role, then hiring Rosamond Pike doomed this show before it ever started. They have largely ruined the story just to make it about a character that honestly, while a beloved character, is not a major player for a majority of the series. It's the equivalent of trying to rewrite LOTR with Gandalf as the main character, except Moiraine isn't even present for nearly 2/3 of the books. I would have much rather had a lesser or unknown actress if it meant they didn't cater the story around a minor character. I love Rosamond as an actress too, and was super excited when she got the role, but I don't love her enough to wreck the story for her.
@talmanes4589 You are 100% correct. We all expected changes, mainly things to get cut. What we didn't expect was all the additional material that isn't adding anything to do with the story. Season 2 was a bloated mess by the end. Storytelling went out the window.
I hope it does get cancelled, and the IP taken up by someone who actually read the books and and wants the series to actually reflect that. They took an amazing story and ruined it. The world is going down a dark path.
I think it would be a relief if this show stops after season 3. I am sorry but this adaptation failed...either it is faithful or on its own. These actors deserve better, they are TERRIFIC! I wish them the best...and they won't get it from this show.
Its one of my favorite book series, but imo this show is not good. If they cancel it now, maybe someone can try again for something faithful to the text sooner.
Thank you for sharing your opinion in a respectful way! It might sound silly but I genuinely appreciate that you simply acknowledged that it's your opinion. I wish other commenters would take a note from you. Have a great day!
I hope it gets cancelled. Then someone else can buy the rights and do it right. Changes from the source material aside, it's just not a very well-done show
They should have cancelled after the first episode. It's crap. I only made it to episode 6 or so. Don't remember. I do remember almost kicking my TV to death in rage at how a bunch of idiots took a great story and characters and made them into a pile of excrement. Hope it does get cancelled and someone who gives a crap makes a good adaptation.
I've felt like 8 seasons is very unlikely since they announced the plan for it and that at absolute most we would get is 5 seasons. Releasing a season every other year kills viewership and paired with marketing or lack thereof that they've done for season 2, it felt like they were intentionally trying to kill the show and I bitched my brains out about it on the void that is Reddit. How do you release a new season of a show and not even have a title card banner on the main Amazon page? It's insanity, but I appreciate your positivity and break down as it does give me a little hope! Thanks Lauren! 💖
I used to do the same thing on the WoT Show Reddit and have not had time to write the past year. Maybe it's time we both started "bitching" (as you put it) again. But politely, as that forum is for gentlepeople.:) As for your opinion--100% AGREE. that's what I felt too. "If Rosamund Pike is on strike, let's "punish" the show she is in." I felt like they were trying to 'punish" the cast who were honoring the strikes and since it was their A-lister draw, I think that's what they did. Now, I wonder what they'll do with S3 (given...um...the plot, can't spoil) and if WoT was really bought by Amazon/Sony as a Rosamund park vehicle as well as a "test case" Rop (as I've been putting it)
100% it will be cancelled. 8 episode every 2 years is not worth it, to long a wait for too little a reward, would have worked if it was 8 episodes every year. Game of thrones achieved more than that a decade ago so I don't know what's their excuse. Also Rafe and his team, even though they like the show they just don't have the writing talent to make this story good. The story is told poorly and the characters are not likeable or relatable at all. The only thing this show has going for it is the world building but it keeps being ruined by writing and story decisions. I just don't see this getting good views for season 3, I'm actually predicting less than season 2 to be honest. Even if if they make season 3 great the reputation is already soured and people won't come back, I think it's to late, sadly.
I don't think it's doomed but the situation isn't reassuring, and it feels like they want it to fail with how little the studio spends on marketing and advertising for it.
I disagree that they want it to fail. The goal of my video was to calm the storm, not fan the flames of speculation... but yes, I also made it super clickbaity on purpose. I'm personally very hopeful that we'll at least get a S4 and probably more!
@@UnravelingthePattern I don't think they literally want it to fail. It just kinda feels like it with the tiny amount of advertising they're doing for the show.
@@M4570DON Yes, it does feel like they don't put nearly enough into marketing for WoT as they have for shows like RoP or Fallout, but maybe we're just not seeing the marketing money because we're already so close to it. It's hard to know for sure without seeing the real numbers, which I assume they'll never disclose :(
@@UnravelingthePattern Love the show, but it looks very expensive. Still, don’t understand why they’re not promoting it more. Everyone was talking about GOT, but hardly heard a word about Wheel. Still, if they’re skipping years between seasons, it understandable why even fans would get disgusted.
IMO, tracking Amazon subscriptions for a TV show is pointless (I think Rebecca made this point in recent video on this matter / but maybe it was Jon.). Most people who purchase Amazon subscription purchase it for on line shopping reasons or other non Amazon streaming services. Unlike Netflix, Paramount+, HBO, and every other streaming services, Amazon's main business is not streaming services. Streaming services are perk to Amazon's services when you subscribe. That is not the case for the other streaming services
Exactly, it really makes no sense. I'm one of the few people who is actually glad for Ads on Prime because I think it helps bring in more $ for the shows I love.
Well, I'm surprised that this show popped up on my recommends again. I checked out after the season 1 finale, it was... a LOT to process (mostly negative). And I haven't thought about it in 3 years, it truly left me that disappointed. I don't agree with the decisions and the direction of the showrunner. I do think maybe Rafe should have an in-depth conversation with Brandon Sanderson and GRR Martin on adaptations and why he thinks he's a better writer than they are. But most of the time I honestly don't have the energy or time to devout to a show that let me down this badly, so I unsubscribed from all content about WOT show. And now from outside looking in, there is NO buzz about this show with trend or interest. I would be surprised if there was a season 4 whatever Sarah says, I mean why would Amazon continue to throw money away with no return.
Sanderson has said in interviews that he tried VERY HARD to change what the writers did to the characters (especially Perrin) but was ignored every time, because clearly Sanderson doesn't understand what's best for the series...
@@benhunt3514 Yea, read between the lines from what Sanderson has said and you'll realize he has about the same opinion of the show that the rest of the hardcore fans do. Even trying to be diplomatic he really shredded the s2 finale episode when he was watching it live.
@thatnobodyguy1535 I hope that pays off. I think sometimes novel writers think they can write scripts and it doesn't turn out great. Of course I have faith in Sanderson, but it does worry me a bit.
Just to be a different voice in this madness of a comment section. I am a book reader and love the show. Is everything perfect, maybe not, is it a really entertaining adaptation, YES 🎉🎉🎉
Donal being in another movie is most likely no issue as you say. Actors need something to do when the movies and seriers they are in go through post production. For example, Josha starred in the movie Gran Turismo (2023) which was proabbly shot between seasons of WoT and that did not mean he skipped the show or that it was cancelled.
They really need to start accelerating their throughput capacity. It's ridiculous to take so long. Hopefully advancements in Gen-AI for this area will help quicken the pace ASAP. One year max between seasons.
At this rate season 5 will be ending the 7th age 😂 or Tam and Thom will be 98 and filming the last battle. 2 year gaps on ANY show is not a good idea. Most people lose interest.
I can't get my head around why you would start to tell a story, any story for that matter, regardless of what it was and NOT BLOODY FINISH IT? That in itself is enough to drive subscribers away. why would you subscribe to a provider that never finishes a story.?
@@UnravelingthePatternIn another comment you wrote that you couldn't see how the WoT show was going to survive, given the long gaps between seasons. Do you really believe Amazon is going to change this strategy? In other words: where is the good news?
I hope they change it. A point I failed to make clear in my video is that despite my frustrations with the 2 year "artificial gap" clearly Amazon has the numbers and thinks it's working. I can only speculate, but they seem to think (for now) that it's fine. I worry that they'll lose interest and viewers, but for some weird reason they do it anyway. Clearly they know something I don't. 🤷♂️
As as paying subscriber to Amazon, they raise the price every year and now they have ads on the videos unless you want to pay more money yet they will not give us what we want. That’s not how you retain subscribers ,Amazon .
This show IS doomed. How could it possibly survive when they're mutilating the story AND doing it badly? It's bad fanfiction from someone who isn't actually a fan. It deserves to be canceled.
Thank you for the amazing work you put in these videos. I would be devastated if the show doesn't get renewed but as you say, no need to panic for now. If it does get cancelled, Amazon and its stupid 2-year gaps will be the culprit in my opinion.
Your videos are great! Thank you for providing so much insight. You’re enhancing my experience with the show because I haven’t read all of the books yet (only the first one).
Yet regular TV shows are filming on schedule and meet the usual air dates. September to early October after the summer break. And mid January the after the Christmas season. And regular TV isn't 8-10 episodes. No, the streaming studios just don't know or have the administration structure to over see TV schedules.
Where would we be without covid and the strikes.. probably in the same situation show wise. I feel your research backs that up. What do you think , Lauren?
I am also getting more and more frustrated with those two year gaps. I just saw the Rings of Power trailer und already thought, damn, need to sit through a video first to catch up on what happened in S1. This is stupid. I also do not agree with checking numbers in the first few days/week of a new show airing or how many subscriptions are taken out. This can work for a show that drops all episodes at once, but nowadays having multiple streaming services that cost money, I try to wait a few weeks so I don't have to subscribe for longer than 1 month and can watch all episodes in that timeframe. I would assume in the current financial climate, this is quite common. I have even seen people mention they cycle trough the different services and only have one active at a time, watch everything they need on there, then go on to the next. So just in this sense, I dont think any of those numbers are a good way for Amazon to check. But I guess they have to start with some numbers somewhere.
exactly, cannot compare viewing numbers the way they used to before streaming services became the norm. I often watch shows a year or more after they have been viral 😂
I absolutely hate that we have to talk about the business of streaming as it relates to this show. I think to your last point, the artificial length between seasons, coupled with Amazon’s strategy of starving the marketing beast until right before season launch, is detrimental to audience retention. Why doesn’t Amazon launch WoT immediately after RoP?
Yeah, it's super bizarre. I really hope it won't always be the norm. I just don't see how WoT in particular can survive with the current model, but I remain hopeful. The Wheel weaves!
I have a theory that Bezos wants to push RoP heavily for Emmys every year it's on (a strategy that has so far worked; even if its just for techs, RoP did get 6 Emmys I think). And if WoT came out so close to RoP every year they would compete for Emmys in the fantasy department and lessen RoP chances (at least that's how I think Bezos sees it. Yeah, utterly stupid. Except the FYC panels for both S1 and S2 were laughably small. Both had like Rafe and 3 more people. Compare that to RoP Emmys panel. Bezos knows what it takes to get an Emmy nom, and WOT didn't get the marketing love.
My Homeboy & Homegirl in the streaming industry have both told me that the entire business model is changing.... So NO ONE knows anything..... Top to bottom changes are happening (Especially in the European Market ) that these shows are dependent on...... Nothing we can do about it but ride it out.....And yes.... Post will be done by the end of the year (within a few weeks either way)... It could be out by the end of april ...... But $$$ will see it sit a few extra months....
@@winters_lady170 Lmaoo... they aren't kids... they are old people like me (we grew up together/college) they have been in the industry for basically 35-40 years and know a lot about it.....They are both WoT book/ RJ fans...They think the $$$ is changing and that Europe is not going to be as cost effective as it once was.... which changes budgeting numbers, So big budget productions will suffer......The 2 year model isn't working because you have to have a HUGE Marketing push to re-invest your audience HoD is proving that point..... The whole "How many new subscriptions" model is outdated because everybody has Amazon now, so "new" doesn't matter as much as it did pre- pandemic..... All of the streaming services are trying to figure the new consumers wants and how to attract them... We wont get into the LONG drawn out discussion we had on "holding on to the Talent" on both sides of the camera post strikes..... I will just say this...House of Dragons numbers & then RoP numbers will tell a LOT about what's going on.... They don't hold out a lot of hope for WoT past season 4 if Rings of power flops again..... HBO has a winner but Amazon is hemorrhaging $$$....WoT is doing better than RoP on a 1/4 of the budget.....smh.....I hope this helps
I actually think it should be cancelled...it has done a lot to drive people away from The Wheel of Time in droves. Its a shame to because Amazon Studios didn't even bother to tell the story that is in books that they may have enjoyed
I will never understand why the arrogant show runner thought he knew better than the original author. Way too much was changed from the source material, which alienated a huge chunk of book readers; this is why the show will fail.
As a WoT super fan, having read the series 7-8 times over the last 25 years, I can honestly say I dont care if the show gets cancelled or not, I watched half of season 1 for myself before giving up on it. Now im just watching reviews if the show somehow improves greatly and that seems very unlikely, I think as WoT fans our best hope is the show getting cancelled and sony/amazon makes a movie series instead as they probably wont sell the rights either way.
I agree. The entire point of an adaptation is to bring beloved characters to life and allow them to show us great moments from the books. The show has completely failed to deliver on either. Whether it’s the butchering of Lan’s personality, the dismal failure to convey Rand’s entire beginning character arc, or any one of hundreds of basic inconsistencies the show simply is not telling the Wheel of Time story. It needs to be cancelled.
@@UnravelingthePattern On your suggestion, I did watch a video of season 2 highlights, some were better than others, but overall they lack the epic feeling you get from reading the books imo
@@donkrkonto That's fair. Still, it's a bit weird to judge something like that on a highlight reel. Imagine loving the WoT books by only reading chapter summaries.
I remember saying after season 1 that if the show didn't do better it wouldn't make it passed a third season. For me I feel like prime nabbed WoT just incase Rings of Power flopped and they had a back up. I think the issue is they do virtually nothing to promote the show. As a newbie to the series I've enjoyed the show and because of that picked up the books.
But the fact is: RoP is not going to "flop." In order to get the rights to make the show, Amazon had to guarantee 5 seasons. They had to sign those papers and commit to that, otherwise the Tolkien Estate would never give them the rights. So RoP is guaranteed 5 seasons no matter if it becomes this giant white whale sucking money out of all the other projects. Which by s3 certainly 4 it will. But Bezos loves LOTR and will fight for this his baby. WoT has always been operating on crumbs. It's beyond a shame, when WpT has been getting more bang for the buck.
About HoTD: it isn't doing as well as hoped. This is a fascinating test case for WOT and other shows affected by the strikes. At the time everyone was hailing hoTD for keeping on production through the strike and how it would make its target date. But the lack of rewrites has really killed the quality of S2 and it has gotten to the point where even the most diehard GOT fans are complaining. Pacing issues, script, flat characterization, everything except FX. The poster who said "The dragons in s2 have more personality than the people" is exactly right and many agree. Plus a beloved minor character that a lot of fans were looking forward to seeing has probably been cut (we'll see, the Finale is tonight) and that is going to cause a HUGE stink if she is cut. In WoT terms, it would be as if Verin had been cut. And the "2 yrs between, 8 eps" thing is a huge compalint too. Plus, there was a same-sex smooch at the end of Ep 6 and for a week the GOT world got a taste of the WOT world. Floods of hate comments, 1-star review bombings etc. It was huge and vicious. Now I think I know who most of the "haters"really are. I really hope the lack of rewrites is not going to diminish the quality of what S3 will be. The best part of the season--the Waste--was filmed after the strikes so what we will see is what Rafe envisioned. But everything else will be raw 1st draft, most likely. No time for reshoots as Donal was off doing Hadestown by that point.
I hope Jon's source's speculation is wrong in that Season 4 will only be greenlit after season 3 airs. If greenlit, season 4 I hope there is enough time for season 4 to film and be released no later than 2 years from when Season 3 airs. If longer than 2 year wait period, then we will need to worry. Lauren, another great video
Ill say this much: I stopped watching WoT Up some time ago because his takes were just wild click bait most of the time (in my opinion of course), and as someone who has worked in performance film and television his understanding of the industry is poor to say the least. I think you make some excellent points here, and at the end of the day the wheel weaves and the wheel wills.
No bloody wonder these shows fail. When the producers do things like 2 - 3 years between series, or people get older they loose interest or in the extreme, if they are old, they could even die before seeing the end of the story. I may even die before the enmd. it's like bloody George and Winds of Winter Let alone A Dream Of Spring. He might even die himself before he finishes the story. Like Robert Jordan did, and Brandon Sanderson had to finish the story. Fans are pissed now. How will that go?
Honestly, I think a lot of people, me included, would prefer they cancel the show and do a remake in a couple of years. It's too late to get back what they have lost, or at least to my knowledge that hasn't really happened before. They messed up with what in their minds should have been a great pay day and the marketing and viewership numbers are a good indication of that.
Excellent video Lauren as always. But I feel you've only begun to crack the surface here. I suggested this to Jon, but I'm making the suggestion to you too: I would love to see a series strictly on the business side of Wot or streaming in general. Maybe Part 1 would be on how the streaming model works compared to broadcast TV and cable. Questions like how does a streamer measure "profit". Why some like Amazon value subs more than "profit"/views. How does the Neilsen ratings work with streaming vs the old days of Broadcast TV. And why do the studios like to fudge those numbers. I used to watch a channel called John Campea where he broke all this down, but he turned into a Disney/Marvel shill so I stopped watching. Part 2, maybe tackle the issue of WHY studios are moving to 2-yr-gap between seasons + less seasons/episodes and how the strikes might impact this further. Personally I feel like the studios are trying to push back against the gains won by the "creatives" in the strikes (esp the writers) so they might want shorter seasons to keep them in the churn. It's not just the FX. But that's just IMO. Not a big reason, but one of them. Part 3, maybe talk about WOT specific. Break down the nuts and bolts of the business arrangment between Red Eagle/SonyAmazon. Just how much % of "profits" does RE get and b/c iWot demands so much money, does this impact the perception of Wot with the suits and does this help or hurt their desire to market the show. last: Lauren, check your Reddit DM's. I wish this had come out yesterday b/c I had further thoughts on WoT. How just a closing S4 might look vs if there is a S5. Speculation about plot, etc. It depends on if Amazon really sees this as a show to fight for. I have concerns about how S3 might look too. Just read it and see. I'd love for open speculation on some of this. But, a "business" series might be a great way to start! It might get other people interested who are wondering about the state of streaming and get viral beyond the WOT community. I have something I want to do to spread the word that I was going to do after S2 ended but never got around to it. Now I have to make time to do it. And Happy belated Name-day!
Yeah, as a non-bookreader, I thought rafe judkins alluded very vaguely in an interview that season 4-5 would probably be greenlit. He couldn't say upfront more than that in a then post-covid environment. There have been strikes now too. Thank you!👍👍👍🎡🎡🎡⌚️⌚️⌚️
Good video. I think you totally managed to point out that we as „normal“ people won’t be able to really understand on what basis the choices of greenlighting new seasons are made and in my opinion it’s not always the same reasons even maybe. I see it like in normal business where such choices are not always depending on the same reasons but one alone: in the end there is the wish of making profit… so that is what I will hope for, that this show will stay looking profitable to those who decide about greenlighting. Tnx a lot Lauren! Well done! 👍
⚠️‼️‼️REMEMBER THE SERIES PERIPHERAL THAT WAS CANCELED? What these producers don’t understand is I’ve been duped before watching a series where there was no completion to the story. I wasn’t informed of cancellation with no ending to the story. I WILL INFORM EVERYONE ON EVERY CHANNEL AND ON EVERY MEDIA OUTLET NOT TO WATCH and suffer the same way I did. There are more examples I should warn people about.
Yeah I was really disappointed to see Peripheral get canceled. 😒 But Westworld got canceled early, as did Raised by Wolves. I know those shows were on another streaming channel... but I feel like this problem is industry wide. Especially when it comes to Sci Fi shows for some reason. If they cancel "Foundation" next I'm gonna lose my sh*t. lol
Because season 1 killed any general excitement most people had for the show. It was disastrously bad, and I personally know several people who choose to not bother with season 2, book fans and non-book fans alike. You're right, s2 was much better but people just didn't come back to see it. Season 1 didn't hook people so season 2's improvements fell on deaf ears for many.
@@talmanes4589 yes you cant make the first season of a show the worst WoT did it... people lose interest if they dont like S1. They made it on 2 categories bad... decsison to alter the Story in bad ways, and bad production
I watched all of season 1. I really didn’t want to, either. My sister is a huge book fan and I had to convince her to watch episode 4, and she was 100% done after that. I struggled through the second half of the season. Why? Because I love WoT and wanted to love the show. I just couldn’t. It isn’t good, it isn’t even telling the WoT story. They just got so much wrong. I didn’t watch season 2, and I have no interest in watching the show again, especially not when my viewership could tacitly show approval of the job Rafe is doing. I *might* hate watch it after it gets cancelled, but not until then.
Welcome to Amazon's: The Wheel of Time, where the plot is made up and the books don't matter. Amazon failed two-fold with this show. Once when failing to adapt the WoT, then again in failing to make their own compelling fanfic. I still don't understand how fans of the books can say this is good. I checked out after episode 3 and have been hate-watching ever since. I can't even point to a "Well, at least they got this right." Because they didn't. They didn't get anything right.
@Alustar22 I think that is the most succinct statement I've seen here regarding the abysmal failure that is Amazon's adaptation (very loosely used term) of RJ's believed WoT. Watching the show, the thing that became most apparent to me is that all it has done is borrow some names from the source material and very little else. Rand's show arc is absolutely removable. His character has done nothing. He's literally the MC, and you could edit him out without any change to Rafe's land of make believe. I understand that the show has some fans, I just desperately wish that they'd find the books, read them, and then find their voice to advocate for a more faithful adaptation.
I'm a massive books fan, I grew up with these. Frankly, the show has been such a huge dissapointment so far that I'd rather not see any more of it as it is to be honest, but that's me
Easy, just don't watch and continue to let the rest of us enjoy it. I personally love the books and like the show (sometimes I love the show, and sometimes I dislike it). But I don't want it to be canceled.
@@UnravelingthePattern Not that easy really. I don't see how my opinion is stopping anyone who wants to watch it from watching it. Frankly, if it was within my power, I would cancel it until someone better shows up to remake it. While you and I may disagree as much as we want, I personally know people who don't want to read the books because they think it's just the same crap as the show. I think we can both agree that this is not good. Preferentially, I'd rather have people read the books than watch the show. As a side benefit, the revenue will flow into RJ's estate instead of others who have abysmally failed at their work. But again, my opinion
Come on people, where are the likes on this video (and so many others)?? Let's support those who love WoT as much as we do and on top of that dedicate hours to produce top quality material!
judging from the last season of house of the dragon....hollywood is messing with all of us knowing that these series are too important for us not to just gobble up whatever stupid decision they make
I think people always want to compare the show to the books and always have negative comments that may push people away, I love the show and the books. And it's hard to find creators like yourself who give good insights into both books and show.
Lol, it's obviously successful. The question is will it continue to be? Jon's video was very clear about how if you compare WoT, RoP and HotD marketing numbers to their viewer numbers, WoT is actually doing very well considering they're getting way lower budgets for production and for marketing than the other 2. WoT is very popular considering the attention they give it.
I'm pretty disappointed with wheel of time adaptation in general, prime studio just no where close to HBO when it comes to high fantasy. this series was completed with book they can follow and still they make a mess out of it. how I wish HBO will be the one handling this series instead.
As a fan of the books I'll continue to watch, but the current timeline of a season every 2 years makes way too long of a timeline for keeping casual fans. And the show needs casual fans to tune in just as much as it needs hardcore book fans to keep it going. And as a general gripe, I just wish Josha Stradowski would actually learn how to use a sword. Rand was obsessed with sword training in the books, meanwhile in the show he barely pulls it from its sheath. I feel like certain writing choices were made because their actor isn't up to par when it comes to wielding a sword. With as much time as they have between seasons there is no excuse for a lack of sword training. Maybe make him take dance classes to learn how to be light on his feet along side the stage combat training.
It's good that you're trying to be positive but this show is not about reaching broader audience. It's about promoting alternative lifestyles. The seasons cannot stand by themselfs. If you havn't read the books you won't have a clue on what's going on. The characters jump around to where they need to be and conversations between characters do not make much sense. And if you HAVE read the books, then you'll see that their not anywhere near following the books. They just use the same names and locations but the characters are not the same and events are changed to fit a narrative the directors have.
It's rough as someone that got introduced through the show. But the writers or executives did this. They're writing a show which expects the viewers to have book knowledge while blatantly changing and taking out key things that book readers love. For example why was matts character given parents that are shitty? played no part in the story. Why was Perrin married just so the character dies. Not needed and really weird considering Perrin and FAlle is a thing.
I have thoughts about Mat's parents, but I'll have to save that for another time. Edit: I should clarify, I have thoughts on all of this and have mentioned it all in other videos.
I don't see the ambiguity here. This show is somewhat expensive and the viewership is not meeting expectations. It sounded very clear to me that the show viewership needs to improve or the company is simply going to walk away from the expense. The rest of this in terms of people's "interpretations" of what he said is just pointless theater and drama.
I'm unsure what you know about viewership numbers, but as was stated in this video I don't think that's a concern. As for the rest of the drama, yeah, it's honestly mostly much ado about nothing.
@@UnravelingthePattern I am not understanding why we need to reinterpret what John said. He said the show needs to see viewership like it did in the early episodes of the previous season.
Thanks for another well-thought out video. One thing I was glad to see was that there is some precedent for the writers starting prior to the season being greenlit. I'm confident Season 4 will get the go ahead. I'm more concerned about the 2-year delay between seasons. I can give the studios a pass for the COVID delays, the whole strike thing was totally on them. I watched the first season of Rings Of Power, but have no interest in relearning everything to watch season 2. I quit on The Boys, Witcher, and a couple of others for that reason. I'll watch anything WOT, anytime, but that's about it.
Lets face it Amazon, are closed mouth to the point of paranoia. It is not Johns ( pls forgive spelling if wrong) fault for the info If Amazon do not offer any news people further down the production food chain will give they'r 10 p worth however garbled.
As always, great video and I appreciate your take on this. I'd honestly be ok with this show dying out after S3. I held out hope when starting season 2, but they lost me at the ending. The actors are well cast and most of the acting is fine, but the writing (even out of context of the books) just falls way too short for me. Comparing to the books, the amount of gaffes and blatant disregard for lore accuracy and history of the world, intricate details, as well as just straying far too much from the main story and character arcs made me straight up uninterested. Expensive show that just feels cheap and mismanaged fan fiction to me. Brandon Sanderson himself systematically tearing the S2 finale apart during a live watch was the last blow to my hope for this. That said I know many are enjoying it and that's great! It just isn't the "LOTR movies and peak GoT or HoTD" level of adaptation I expected.
Here had they kept with the books and didn’t verve so far off course I’d absolutely be looking forward to more seasons. That being said this show has absolutely no redeeming qualities.
I wouldn't say the show is that bad. I agree, they should have stayed closer to the source material, but there were a lot of things and scenes, i really think were well done: the casting, Winternight, Weep for Manetheren, Shadar Logoth, the way of the leaf, the warder bond, the Aes Sedai politics, Nynaeve's accepted test, Perrin and Hopper, the browns' detective work, Egwene and Renna. All in all, i liked S1 better than S2. Unfortunately , it didn't end on a high note, but on the lowest possible. Releasing ep. 8 in such a messy, unpolished state was a huge mistake and one of the main reasons, i guess, why the show lost a great part of its viewership. It's gonna be tough, if not impossible, to win them back now.
Im just sad they took ALOT out of the books, and as a new Reader just finishing my first read it kind of sucks falling in love with characters that i'll never see portrayed. Like Gaul😢 That said i do believe that the show is good enough to continue through 8 seasons at least. There is certainly enough world building and character development that can still happen! This is just another turning of the wheel! when looking at it this way i love it even more. Lets think positive guys/gals😊
Fantastic video as always Bro. S3 can't come soon enough. My 2 cents is that we need more Book to Anime releases. Wheel Of Time would be amazing as an anime, the only issue is nothing animated is taken seriously but having these grand fantastical epics be told through anime opens so many doors to new audiences.
Please Support The Soundscape of Time on Kickstarter! - kck.st/3xUmwV0 🙏
:D
Thank you for this, it sounds fantastic!
I just can't understand why they had to stray so very far from the books. I get it, stream line it for tv but when you're cutting sruff you shoudnnt be adding in new plot lines.
Precisely. Like they felt "they can do it better" and took someone else's story and rewrote it. While angry ad crying.
I just watched season 1 & 2 and loved it. I might buy the books.
Arrogance.
My biggest issue is that while Wheel of Time is an ensemble cast Rand is still supposed to be the main character of the story, but they keep taking away his early big wins and giving them to other characters. And while I can understand combining characters what happens in later seasons when the individual characters are far away from each other. Gaul is far more important to Perrin’s storyline than he is to Rand’s story but they’re giving his early story to Aviendha so is she going to leave Rand to follow Perrin and just abandon her book arc of becoming a Wise One? On top of that how are they going to portray Rand’s later schizophrenia like personality break and on top of that book wise there’s only one or two characters that exceed Rand in raw power from early on in the book but the show is trying to give him the “Worf Effect” but they haven’t shown how powerful he is in the first place so it falls short.
It was never just about Rand, if you look at any article that shows how many page time the major characters get Rand is pretty much equal with Egwene and in fact most of the main characters get huge book time. Even the books themselves tell us at the end that it was never just about Rand.
@@cazgreene3055 That's so wrong it's absurd. The entire series was ONLY about Rand. All events revolve around him alone. The Dark One's end game was not to kill Rand (thus perpetuating the wheel of time, bringing an age of darkness but allowing the Dragon to be reborn later to have the same fight all over) but to corrupt him to the shadow and end the wheel of time. Sure, he couldn't have won alone, Jordan makes that ultra clear, but it wasn't like they were equals. Not nearly. If there was no Rand they would have lost. If Rand had been alone they would have lost. But it's always about Rand. That's the problem with this show. They don't seem to understand that everything revolves around Rand. EVERYTHING. Taking away what he does, changing the events that make him who he is, is quite simply blasphemy. To put it simply, Rand is the Dragon of Time, but the show treats him as just another character. An unloved and quite feeble character.
@@cazgreene3055 I don't think anyone is saying it's only about Rand, but he is the central figure that the entire story revolves around and he is clearly the most powerful person on the side of Light from the end of book 1 onwards. The early books focus HEAVY on Rand and it's really as we get further and further in that the others start to get equal time. Still the EF5 all need to get their shine. My problem is all the time and attention given to minor characters that don't need it. Moiraine, Liandrin, Lan, a random dead warder. Moiraine is the biggest culprit here. Just because they got a big name actor to play her, they have thrown out huge chunks of development for the other characters that matter in order to appease her, I guess. Those episodes focusing on Moiraine and Lan are just wasted screentime that don't advance the actual canon story in any way. All they do is stroke actor's egos I guess.
@@talmanes4589 The early books focus so much on Rand because RJ at the time thought he was writing a trilogy, since he expanded the trilogy there were more POV chapters for other characters than Rand to allow for those characters to grow into what they needed to be for the story. The show is not trying for a straight adaptation of the books, because they know they are likely limited to 8 seasons or less, they are weaving in aspects of later books into the early seasons, in order to capture the essence of the whole story of the Wheel of Time, which takes the emphasis away from Rand more than "book purists" like. Therefore to make compelling TV they have to build up all the EF5 to keep those characters interesting for the viewers when it comes to their critical moments that are required for the eventual victory of the light.
I agree there are interesting set up episodes that given they are limited to only 8 episodes a season seemed strange decisions at the time, but may pay off later down the line.
Moiraine and by extension Lan being a bigger characters in the tv show than how she is portrayed in the early books is another set up for events that take place in Fires of Heaven (no spoilers here - if you know you know). If the show followed the books we'd basically have only a few scenes with Moraine and Lan the whole season which doesn't make sense imo.
Liandrian turning from a cartoon villain in the books to being actually believably evil and the whitecloaks actually being competent but also misguidedly evil are good changes
The comment about stroking egos might be true but come on you have to admit they are fantastic actors and make use of their talents rather than putting them in bit part roles.
I'm sure when Shohreh Aghdasloo starts stealing the show in season 3 for another minor character as you put is (assuming she is playing Elaida as a lot of people think) there will not be many complaints (other than why are we now liking Elaida?)
I like thickskull's point. Personally, most objectives could have been met, if the showrunner's (and I know fans of Rafe disagree) obvious and polarizing tones and a close adaptation were constructed alongside each other. For example; the Wheel turns and a Rafe version of the Wheel could have been made wherein the Dragon was a girl and in his version of the Wheel many aspects were as he sees fit. A true adaptation could have been set aside as a later project for another. Rafe's version would change characters names and have them behave or impact in similar ways to an exact adaptation, then book fans yearning for a close adaptation would recognize the world, the magic, the foreshadowing etc etc and be not offended. Perhaps scoff or compare that Rafe's Dragon is nothing like Jordan's Dragon and so on. Rafe would have license minus the natural offense to tell his version, book fans could enjoy the themes and not get hung up on "that's not the book way" because it isn't trying to be the book. Simply another spinning of the wheel and how the Dragon Reborn defeats the Dark One. It's been years since I read the books. I stopped at book 9 because it was too long between release dates and the need to go back and start again was too much dedication, so I quit reading until they were finished and I have yet to complete them. So while I can understand the fervor about the Amazon/Rafe version being a poor and pathetic attempt at telling Robert Jordan's epic tale; I feel they missed an opportunity to set themselves up for success: capture the fan base, attract a wider fantasy audience in the video medium but isolate themselves from the exact adaptation requirements of a book so massive and detailed. Especially with the political/woke type themes introduced. It strikes as so simple to have accomplished all of that and yet here we are still lamenting how underwhelming Robert Jordan's story has been portrayed by Amazon/Rafe's version. Here's how I have approached this - my 14 year old step son and I were talking about books to read... "oh you have to read WoT by Robert Jordan and completed by Sanderson, but don't watch the Amazon series and think they are the same story, they aren't" I'm a fan of the Amazon series only because it's high fantasy done ok. I've had to put away the book fan because it is so disappointing when watching and thinking about the books, but as a stand alone series to watch, it's ok. I have never read the Witcher books but enjoyed the TV series and also thought it was OK, not fantastic, but ok. The book fans are also incensed. My older son is a huge Halo lore fan and was incensed by the TV series. I know nothing and thought the TV series was also Ok. Few things will ever be as good as a book I believe, because when reading a book it's ones imagination in the book that takes hold of the heart and mind, in a movie one is being told what it is. Never the same. My final point as even as abhorrent as Rafe's version is to me - it is still far better than 90% of the garbage on TV nowadays. So, I will continue to watch - just have to remove the book brain first!
I'm not really here to comment on the drama. What I will say is that 2 years between seasons is ridiculous. Rafe initially anticipated 8 seasons, can you really hold a captive and committed audience for 16 years? That's crazy. What will the actors look like by then? What will the landscape of streaming services be like? Will the general public be as invested in fantastical media at that point? Far too many variables.
True, but WoT has held me for 25 years so far and will continue to keep me coming back for more as long as I live.
Perhaps, Rafe Judkins can convince the Amazon executives that he can tell the rest of the story in one final season. A decade or so ago, it was quite common for shows to only have four seasons (The Man in the High Castle, Mozart in the Jungle, Mr. Robot). This way, we would at least get an ending.
@@joelovesjazz8437 There are no beginnings or endings to the wheel of time
@@brewster_4 You have a point. 😄
I'd hate that; but that's better than nothing!
Amazon treats the show like they don’t care about it. Marketing has always been essentially zero. As for socials/hype, nobody talks about the show. Review channels that review just about everything, dont even mention it.
She show itself proves that Amazon don't care about it...
There are plenty of review channels that cover this site. The problem is very few are anything but critical of the content, with good reason, and therefore Amazon ignores it.
The show is a bag of shit painted to look like a bushel of apples, but no ones buying because we can all smell how terrible it is.
It's a shame really, they had the perfect template for a great series and ruined it.
@@Alustar22 Great contribution. I hope your message of peace and love reaches far and wide
they aren't recouping the money they are spending, they can't afford to treat the show as a money maker.
Promo for s2 was severely compromised by the SAG/AFTRA and WGA strikes (or rather, studios' refusal to treat workers fairly). They should have the cast and Rafe active on social media throughout s3's airing.
People like to say "well, they have to cater to a larger audience." I look at it a different way. If they can't even retain the core audience most inclined to like the show, then how do they expect to attract new viewers? They failed to please or excite the people who were trying their hardest to love the show and you think new fans unfamiliar with it are going to fall in love with it? I suggest a new policy, if something has millions of fans already, maybe you don't need to drastically change it to get millions more, maybe all you need to do is adapt it faithfully and expose more people to the already wonderful story you had at your fingertips. Or continue to make nonsensical changes because in your hubris you believe yourself an equal or greater storyteller than Robert Jordan was.
I also think you can't underestimate how much hardcore fans effect the overall buzz for a show by driving social media and conversations about the show on platforms like this one and others. It's not the casual fans watching videos like this or posting about WoT on Reddit and Facebook. It's the hardcore fans, many of whom they turned off with their choices. Take myself for example, before s1 I was telling everyone who would listen they had to watch it and give it a chance. After s1 I lost all excitement for the show and while I watched s2 and it was better, I no longer tell anyone else they should watch it. I no longer watch as many videos like this one and this is the first one I have commented on since just after the end of s2, because I don't care to keep up with it anymore. I'll watch but my expectations are very low.
You make a lot of fair points but also seem to fail to understand how adaptation of a work as large as WoT works, especially with limited budgets and actors and a million other things that make adaptation necessary. I'm not suggesting that WoT is perfect or that every decision or change they've made was right, but I've spent hundreds of hours discussing the adaptation and why the show is not nearly as bad as armchair critics love to think.
Personally, I think if they had adapted book 1 more accurately the show would've been DOA. It's too generic and too similar to LotR at the start. Also, S2 was awesome!
@@UnravelingthePattern I think that all changes made within an adaptation will have secondary importance to the level of quality of the adapted script. In my view, LOTR movies succeeded with the larger general non-book audience because the changes made (Tom Bombadil exclusion, exclusion of Fangorn fight at HelmsDeep, etc.) enhanced/did-not-hinder an already great adapted screen play that they had carefully developed for the movies.
Also, note that HOTD is doing quite well in its Season 2 despite massive fan backlash due to the horrible GoT Season 8, purely because its a immensely well written script, hence all the changes made to source material were either accepted or ignored due to being overshadowed by the great script.
In contrast, I think that WoT show was rejected by the general audience because its had glaringly amateurish and poorly written scripts, which could have been saved if the following changes were not made:
1. Dragon Reborn Mystery Box
2. Focusing more on supporting characters (Moiraine, Egwene, Nynaeve, Liandrin & Alanna) rather than giving Primacy to the 3 main characters (Rand, Mat and Perrin) - Very similar to the failed & now-cancelled Halo show adaptation
3. Giving the 'Anchor Being' Rand's hero moments to artificially prop up other characters
4. Fundamentally changing character motivations
5. Unnecessary scenes such as Tree-Pisser Mandragoran & Sad-Warder lol
6. Disastrous season finales especially season 2 which was disgraceful.
7. WoT tried to attract the mythic non-existent 'Modern Audience' instead of trying to appease its Actual Audience whom had bought over 90 million copies of this series.
I think that this sentiment can be seen from the Nielson ratings number for season 1 which started from a respectable 1.1 billion minutes watched but ended at a disappointing 600 million minutes watched. I admit that for season 2 the writers strike was a significant hindrance but if the season 1 finale was Epic it would have invariably resulted in higher numbers than the disappointing 400-500 million minutes watched that we ultimately got.
But if what WoTUp has learnt is true, WoT Season 3 would then ONLY need to generate around 1 billion minutes watched on average, which is to be honest a very easily achievable number IF a show is great (Reacher season 2 had more than doubled that value easily). So if WoT show cannot achieve that season 1 level viewing numbers then that's ultimately the fault of the showrunner and his team, since the targets set are quite reasonable.
I can only pray for the God of War adaptation to come lol
I have to agree with the opinion here. It's too easy to try and justify the poor writing or social engineering of characters through the notion that the book is too large / too generic / too many locations and characters etc but the proposed outcomes were substandard and if anything destroyed the gravity of the situation and the impact of the three main characters (Rand, Mat and Perrin). Instead they focussed on the tier two characters of Egwene and Nynaeve and force changed Moiraine to fit the "celebrity status" of Rosamund. This show should have been so much more.
The change to focus on the attack of Eammond Field in ep 1 was good until they eradicated any fight from the male half of the village. It had to be all "girl power". Poor decisions that alienate a significant number of people.
I agree that the time between shows is likely the norm, so in effect the platform style does not suit an adaptation model for a show this big. in essence the show was doomed never to finish. They need to get back to a GOT timeline of every 12 months if they can to keep people franchised. It's a self fulfilling marketing prophecy. Instead the casual viewer will move on and jump on the "we hate ROP bandwagon".
I want to show to course correct and drop the 🎤 but in reality I don't think the show runner or the writing room has it in them.
@@UnravelingthePattern What I think you fail to understand is I was expecting major changes, storylines merged, minor characters merged, storylines cut because there was so much source material that a one to one adaption was never going to be possible in live action (anime is another discussion). What I did not expect, and cannot forgive, is all the stuff they choose to add. They've added entire storylines for characters such as Moiraine, and Liandrin, and some forgettable dead warder. at the expense of the characters who actually matter to the story in the long run. They had so much source material they were going to have to cut a lot already, and they choose to make it worse by cutting more so they could insert their own badly written fanfiction into the story.
If they had to cater to her in order to get her to take the role, then hiring Rosamond Pike doomed this show before it ever started. They have largely ruined the story just to make it about a character that honestly, while a beloved character, is not a major player for a majority of the series. It's the equivalent of trying to rewrite LOTR with Gandalf as the main character, except Moiraine isn't even present for nearly 2/3 of the books. I would have much rather had a lesser or unknown actress if it meant they didn't cater the story around a minor character. I love Rosamond as an actress too, and was super excited when she got the role, but I don't love her enough to wreck the story for her.
@talmanes4589 You are 100% correct. We all expected changes, mainly things to get cut. What we didn't expect was all the additional material that isn't adding anything to do with the story. Season 2 was a bloated mess by the end. Storytelling went out the window.
Canceling this show would be the best thing for fans of the WoT.
Well, that's bad. This travesty of TV show should be ended as soon as possible.
I hope it does get cancelled, and the IP taken up by someone who actually read the books and and wants the series to actually reflect that. They took an amazing story and ruined it. The world is going down a dark path.
I think it would be a relief if this show stops after season 3. I am sorry but this adaptation failed...either it is faithful or on its own. These actors deserve better, they are TERRIFIC! I wish them the best...and they won't get it from this show.
I tapped out at the end of season one.
Hoping for a future animated version that adheres a bit closer to the source in its adaptation.
Its one of my favorite book series, but imo this show is not good. If they cancel it now, maybe someone can try again for something faithful to the text sooner.
Thank you for sharing your opinion in a respectful way! It might sound silly but I genuinely appreciate that you simply acknowledged that it's your opinion. I wish other commenters would take a note from you. Have a great day!
@@UnravelingthePattern no problem at all. I appreciate you taking the time and effort to answer!
I hope it gets cancelled. Then someone else can buy the rights and do it right. Changes from the source material aside, it's just not a very well-done show
Just because there's no _need_ to panic doesn't mean I can't panic recreationally. 😁
Haha, "recreational panic" is a great name for a band.
They should have cancelled after the first episode. It's crap. I only made it to episode 6 or so. Don't remember. I do remember almost kicking my TV to death in rage at how a bunch of idiots took a great story and characters and made them into a pile of excrement. Hope it does get cancelled and someone who gives a crap makes a good adaptation.
WoT needs a Henry Cavil.
I've felt like 8 seasons is very unlikely since they announced the plan for it and that at absolute most we would get is 5 seasons. Releasing a season every other year kills viewership and paired with marketing or lack thereof that they've done for season 2, it felt like they were intentionally trying to kill the show and I bitched my brains out about it on the void that is Reddit. How do you release a new season of a show and not even have a title card banner on the main Amazon page? It's insanity, but I appreciate your positivity and break down as it does give me a little hope! Thanks Lauren! 💖
I used to do the same thing on the WoT Show Reddit and have not had time to write the past year. Maybe it's time we both started "bitching" (as you put it) again. But politely, as that forum is for gentlepeople.:)
As for your opinion--100% AGREE. that's what I felt too. "If Rosamund Pike is on strike, let's "punish" the show she is in." I felt like they were trying to 'punish" the cast who were honoring the strikes and since it was their A-lister draw, I think that's what they did. Now, I wonder what they'll do with S3 (given...um...the plot, can't spoil) and if WoT was really bought by Amazon/Sony as a Rosamund park vehicle as well as a "test case" Rop (as I've been putting it)
100% it will be cancelled. 8 episode every 2 years is not worth it, to long a wait for too little a reward, would have worked if it was 8 episodes every year. Game of thrones achieved more than that a decade ago so I don't know what's their excuse. Also Rafe and his team, even though they like the show they just don't have the writing talent to make this story good. The story is told poorly and the characters are not likeable or relatable at all. The only thing this show has going for it is the world building but it keeps being ruined by writing and story decisions. I just don't see this getting good views for season 3, I'm actually predicting less than season 2 to be honest. Even if if they make season 3 great the reputation is already soured and people won't come back, I think it's to late, sadly.
I don't think it's doomed but the situation isn't reassuring, and it feels like they want it to fail with how little the studio spends on marketing and advertising for it.
I disagree that they want it to fail. The goal of my video was to calm the storm, not fan the flames of speculation... but yes, I also made it super clickbaity on purpose. I'm personally very hopeful that we'll at least get a S4 and probably more!
@@UnravelingthePattern I don't think they literally want it to fail. It just kinda feels like it with the tiny amount of advertising they're doing for the show.
@@M4570DON Yes, it does feel like they don't put nearly enough into marketing for WoT as they have for shows like RoP or Fallout, but maybe we're just not seeing the marketing money because we're already so close to it. It's hard to know for sure without seeing the real numbers, which I assume they'll never disclose :(
@@UnravelingthePattern Love the show, but it looks very expensive. Still, don’t understand why they’re not promoting it more. Everyone was talking about GOT, but hardly heard a word about Wheel. Still, if they’re skipping years between seasons, it understandable why even fans would get disgusted.
IMO, tracking Amazon subscriptions for a TV show is pointless (I think Rebecca made this point in recent video on this matter / but maybe it was Jon.). Most people who purchase Amazon subscription purchase it for on line shopping reasons or other non Amazon streaming services. Unlike Netflix, Paramount+, HBO, and every other streaming services, Amazon's main business is not streaming services. Streaming services are perk to Amazon's services when you subscribe. That is not the case for the other streaming services
Exactly, it really makes no sense. I'm one of the few people who is actually glad for Ads on Prime because I think it helps bring in more $ for the shows I love.
I miss the good ol days of shows like 24, prison break and Lost. 24 Episodes of an awesome show every freaking year. With zero source material.
Well, I'm surprised that this show popped up on my recommends again.
I checked out after the season 1 finale, it was... a LOT to process (mostly negative). And I haven't thought about it in 3 years, it truly left me that disappointed. I don't agree with the decisions and the direction of the showrunner. I do think maybe Rafe should have an in-depth conversation with Brandon Sanderson and GRR Martin on adaptations and why he thinks he's a better writer than they are. But most of the time I honestly don't have the energy or time to devout to a show that let me down this badly, so I unsubscribed from all content about WOT show. And now from outside looking in, there is NO buzz about this show with trend or interest. I would be surprised if there was a season 4 whatever Sarah says, I mean why would Amazon continue to throw money away with no return.
Sanderson has said in interviews that he tried VERY HARD to change what the writers did to the characters (especially Perrin) but was ignored every time, because clearly Sanderson doesn't understand what's best for the series...
@@benhunt3514 Yea, read between the lines from what Sanderson has said and you'll realize he has about the same opinion of the show that the rest of the hardcore fans do. Even trying to be diplomatic he really shredded the s2 finale episode when he was watching it live.
Thankfully, he's writing his own script for a Mistborn series, & it sounds like he's only in for an adaptation if he has creative control.
@thatnobodyguy1535 I hope that pays off. I think sometimes novel writers think they can write scripts and it doesn't turn out great. Of course I have faith in Sanderson, but it does worry me a bit.
Just to be a different voice in this madness of a comment section. I am a book reader and love the show. Is everything perfect, maybe not, is it a really entertaining adaptation, YES 🎉🎉🎉
Donal being in another movie is most likely no issue as you say. Actors need something to do when the movies and seriers they are in go through post production.
For example, Josha starred in the movie Gran Turismo (2023) which was proabbly shot between seasons of WoT and that did not mean he skipped the show or that it was cancelled.
Exactly!
it's hard for the fans to buy in when it looks like the studio hasn't bought in
I hope they give it more love and attention soon. Hopefully after RoP S2 ends we'll start to see more about WoT.
i just about forgot Michael McElhatton was cast as Tam. Now i at least want to get to the later books where we see him again.
Chances are we'll see him in S3 because we are getting the Battle of the Two Rivers!
They really need to start accelerating their throughput capacity. It's ridiculous to take so long. Hopefully advancements in Gen-AI for this area will help quicken the pace ASAP. One year max between seasons.
At this rate season 5 will be ending the 7th age 😂 or Tam and Thom will be 98 and filming the last battle.
2 year gaps on ANY show is not a good idea. Most people lose interest.
I can't get my head around why you would start to tell a story, any story for that matter, regardless of what it was and NOT BLOODY FINISH IT? That in itself is enough to drive subscribers away. why would you subscribe to a provider that never finishes a story.?
Good news is it hasn't been (and probably won't be) canceled.
@@UnravelingthePatternIn another comment you wrote that you couldn't see how the WoT show was going to survive, given the long gaps between seasons. Do you really believe Amazon is going to change this strategy? In other words: where is the good news?
I hope they change it. A point I failed to make clear in my video is that despite my frustrations with the 2 year "artificial gap" clearly Amazon has the numbers and thinks it's working. I can only speculate, but they seem to think (for now) that it's fine. I worry that they'll lose interest and viewers, but for some weird reason they do it anyway. Clearly they know something I don't. 🤷♂️
Don't let the Rothfuss fans hear you say that
It's because they stopped telling the story from the very first episode and people got tired of it.
As as paying subscriber to Amazon, they raise the price every year and now they have ads on the videos unless you want to pay more money yet they will not give us what we want. That’s not how you retain subscribers ,Amazon .
This show IS doomed. How could it possibly survive when they're mutilating the story AND doing it badly? It's bad fanfiction from someone who isn't actually a fan. It deserves to be canceled.
Thank you for the amazing work you put in these videos. I would be devastated if the show doesn't get renewed but as you say, no need to panic for now. If it does get cancelled, Amazon and its stupid 2-year gaps will be the culprit in my opinion.
Your videos are great! Thank you for providing so much insight. You’re enhancing my experience with the show because I haven’t read all of the books yet (only the first one).
Yet regular TV shows are filming on schedule and meet the usual air dates. September to early October after the summer break. And mid January the after the Christmas season. And regular TV isn't 8-10 episodes. No, the streaming studios just don't know or have the administration structure to over see TV schedules.
Where would we be without covid and the strikes.. probably in the same situation show wise. I feel your research backs that up. What do you think , Lauren?
Yeah, maybe. I feel like we'd be a bit farther along. The show was greenlit 6 years ago this October! Feels like S1 would've happened sooner at least.
I am also getting more and more frustrated with those two year gaps. I just saw the Rings of Power trailer und already thought, damn, need to sit through a video first to catch up on what happened in S1. This is stupid.
I also do not agree with checking numbers in the first few days/week of a new show airing or how many subscriptions are taken out. This can work for a show that drops all episodes at once, but nowadays having multiple streaming services that cost money, I try to wait a few weeks so I don't have to subscribe for longer than 1 month and can watch all episodes in that timeframe. I would assume in the current financial climate, this is quite common. I have even seen people mention they cycle trough the different services and only have one active at a time, watch everything they need on there, then go on to the next. So just in this sense, I dont think any of those numbers are a good way for Amazon to check. But I guess they have to start with some numbers somewhere.
exactly, cannot compare viewing numbers the way they used to before streaming services became the norm. I often watch shows a year or more after they have been viral 😂
I absolutely hate that we have to talk about the business of streaming as it relates to this show.
I think to your last point, the artificial length between seasons, coupled with Amazon’s strategy of starving the marketing beast until right before season launch, is detrimental to audience retention.
Why doesn’t Amazon launch WoT immediately after RoP?
Yeah, it's super bizarre. I really hope it won't always be the norm. I just don't see how WoT in particular can survive with the current model, but I remain hopeful. The Wheel weaves!
I have a theory that Bezos wants to push RoP heavily for Emmys every year it's on (a strategy that has so far worked; even if its just for techs, RoP did get 6 Emmys I think). And if WoT came out so close to RoP every year they would compete for Emmys in the fantasy department and lessen RoP chances (at least that's how I think Bezos sees it. Yeah, utterly stupid. Except the FYC panels for both S1 and S2 were laughably small. Both had like Rafe and 3 more people. Compare that to RoP Emmys panel. Bezos knows what it takes to get an Emmy nom, and WOT didn't get the marketing love.
Imagine if Rafe knew the show continuing all hinged on the end of s3? I am pretty sure we would get Dumai wells earlier than expected.
My Homeboy & Homegirl in the streaming industry have both told me that the entire business model is changing.... So NO ONE knows anything..... Top to bottom changes are happening (Especially in the European Market ) that these shows are dependent on...... Nothing we can do about it but ride it out.....And yes.... Post will be done by the end of the year (within a few weeks either way)... It could be out by the end of april ...... But $$$ will see it sit a few extra months....
I'd love to know more about what your homekids told you about the "changes". How is it changing, and what about Europe?
@@winters_lady170 Lmaoo... they aren't kids... they are old people like me (we grew up together/college) they have been in the industry for basically 35-40 years and know a lot about it.....They are both WoT book/ RJ fans...They think the $$$ is changing and that Europe is not going to be as cost effective as it once was.... which changes budgeting numbers, So big budget productions will suffer......The 2 year model isn't working because you have to have a HUGE Marketing push to re-invest your audience HoD is proving that point..... The whole "How many new subscriptions" model is outdated because everybody has Amazon now, so "new" doesn't matter as much as it did pre- pandemic..... All of the streaming services are trying to figure the new consumers wants and how to attract them... We wont get into the LONG drawn out discussion we had on "holding on to the Talent" on both sides of the camera post strikes..... I will just say this...House of Dragons numbers & then RoP numbers will tell a LOT about what's going on.... They don't hold out a lot of hope for WoT past season 4 if Rings of power flops again..... HBO has a winner but Amazon is hemorrhaging $$$....WoT is doing better than RoP on a 1/4 of the budget.....smh.....I hope this helps
I actually think it should be cancelled...it has done a lot to drive people away from The Wheel of Time in droves. Its a shame to because Amazon Studios didn't even bother to tell the story that is in books that they may have enjoyed
K
I will never understand why the arrogant show runner thought he knew better than the original author. Way too much was changed from the source material, which alienated a huge chunk of book readers; this is why the show will fail.
As a WoT super fan, having read the series 7-8 times over the last 25 years, I can honestly say I dont care if the show gets cancelled or not, I watched half of season 1 for myself before giving up on it.
Now im just watching reviews if the show somehow improves greatly and that seems very unlikely, I think as WoT fans our best hope is the show getting cancelled and sony/amazon makes a movie series instead as they probably wont sell the rights either way.
yes, same here. Im just checking in every once in a while to see if any important scenes get adapted... so far, nothing.
I agree. The entire point of an adaptation is to bring beloved characters to life and allow them to show us great moments from the books.
The show has completely failed to deliver on either. Whether it’s the butchering of Lan’s personality, the dismal failure to convey Rand’s entire beginning character arc, or any one of hundreds of basic inconsistencies the show simply is not telling the Wheel of Time story.
It needs to be cancelled.
Did you see the Egwene/damane scenes? Those were very important and IMO, very well done!
@@UnravelingthePattern On your suggestion, I did watch a video of season 2 highlights, some were better than others, but overall they lack the epic feeling you get from reading the books imo
@@donkrkonto That's fair. Still, it's a bit weird to judge something like that on a highlight reel. Imagine loving the WoT books by only reading chapter summaries.
I remember saying after season 1 that if the show didn't do better it wouldn't make it passed a third season.
For me I feel like prime nabbed WoT just incase Rings of Power flopped and they had a back up. I think the issue is they do virtually nothing to promote the show.
As a newbie to the series I've enjoyed the show and because of that picked up the books.
But the fact is: RoP is not going to "flop." In order to get the rights to make the show, Amazon had to guarantee 5 seasons. They had to sign those papers and commit to that, otherwise the Tolkien Estate would never give them the rights. So RoP is guaranteed 5 seasons no matter if it becomes this giant white whale sucking money out of all the other projects. Which by s3 certainly 4 it will. But Bezos loves LOTR and will fight for this his baby. WoT has always been operating on crumbs. It's beyond a shame, when WpT has been getting more bang for the buck.
About HoTD: it isn't doing as well as hoped. This is a fascinating test case for WOT and other shows affected by the strikes. At the time everyone was hailing hoTD for keeping on production through the strike and how it would make its target date. But the lack of rewrites has really killed the quality of S2 and it has gotten to the point where even the most diehard GOT fans are complaining.
Pacing issues, script, flat characterization, everything except FX. The poster who said "The dragons in s2 have more personality than the people" is exactly right and many agree. Plus a beloved minor character that a lot of fans were looking forward to seeing has probably been cut (we'll see, the Finale is tonight) and that is going to cause a HUGE stink if she is cut. In WoT terms, it would be as if Verin had been cut. And the "2 yrs between, 8 eps" thing is a huge compalint too.
Plus, there was a same-sex smooch at the end of Ep 6 and for a week the GOT world got a taste of the WOT world. Floods of hate comments, 1-star review bombings etc. It was huge and vicious. Now I think I know who most of the "haters"really are.
I really hope the lack of rewrites is not going to diminish the quality of what S3 will be. The best part of the season--the Waste--was filmed after the strikes so what we will see is what Rafe envisioned. But everything else will be raw 1st draft, most likely. No time for reshoots as Donal was off doing Hadestown by that point.
I hope Jon's source's speculation is wrong in that Season 4 will only be greenlit after season 3 airs. If greenlit, season 4 I hope there is enough time for season 4 to film and be released no later than 2 years from when Season 3 airs. If longer than 2 year wait period, then we will need to worry.
Lauren, another great video
Agree completely! Thanks Andrew!
I'll be honest I completely forgot Season 2 came out until I watched this. So thanks for the reminder!
Ill say this much: I stopped watching WoT Up some time ago because his takes were just wild click bait most of the time (in my opinion of course), and as someone who has worked in performance film and television his understanding of the industry is poor to say the least. I think you make some excellent points here, and at the end of the day the wheel weaves and the wheel wills.
No bloody wonder these shows fail. When the producers do things like 2 - 3 years between series, or people get older they loose interest or in the extreme, if they are old, they could even die before seeing the end of the story. I may even die before the enmd. it's like bloody George and Winds of Winter Let alone A Dream Of Spring. He might even die himself before he finishes the story. Like Robert Jordan did, and Brandon Sanderson had to finish the story. Fans are pissed now. How will that go?
Honestly, I think a lot of people, me included, would prefer they cancel the show and do a remake in a couple of years. It's too late to get back what they have lost, or at least to my knowledge that hasn't really happened before. They messed up with what in their minds should have been a great pay day and the marketing and viewership numbers are a good indication of that.
Even Amazon's big cash cow, The Boys, still has long gaps between seasons.
And even that one is ending after season 5. Same for Stranger Things, which also has huge gaps.
2 years between seasons is just the norm now. It started with Westworld and Stranger Things and GOT Season 7-8 and now it applies to every big show.
I understood what Jon was saying but I can see how it could stir up some panic. Here's hoping that this message reaches many ears
I simply love your videos! Your voice is sooooo relaxing! In these time of political stress for me I love listening to you!
That's very kind of you! I love escaping from the realities of the world to talk about WoT. Thanks for watching!
Excellent video Lauren as always. But I feel you've only begun to crack the surface here. I suggested this to Jon, but I'm making the suggestion to you too: I would love to see a series strictly on the business side of Wot or streaming in general.
Maybe Part 1 would be on how the streaming model works compared to broadcast TV and cable. Questions like how does a streamer measure "profit". Why some like Amazon value subs more than "profit"/views. How does the Neilsen ratings work with streaming vs the old days of Broadcast TV. And why do the studios like to fudge those numbers. I used to watch a channel called John Campea where he broke all this down, but he turned into a Disney/Marvel shill so I stopped watching.
Part 2, maybe tackle the issue of WHY studios are moving to 2-yr-gap between seasons + less seasons/episodes and how the strikes might impact this further. Personally I feel like the studios are trying to push back against the gains won by the "creatives" in the strikes (esp the writers) so they might want shorter seasons to keep them in the churn. It's not just the FX. But that's just IMO. Not a big reason, but one of them.
Part 3, maybe talk about WOT specific. Break down the nuts and bolts of the business arrangment between Red Eagle/SonyAmazon. Just how much % of "profits" does RE get and b/c iWot demands so much money, does this impact the perception of Wot with the suits and does this help or hurt their desire to market the show.
last: Lauren, check your Reddit DM's. I wish this had come out yesterday b/c I had further thoughts on WoT. How just a closing S4 might look vs if there is a S5. Speculation about plot, etc. It depends on if Amazon really sees this as a show to fight for. I have concerns about how S3 might look too. Just read it and see. I'd love for open speculation on some of this.
But, a "business" series might be a great way to start! It might get other people interested who are wondering about the state of streaming and get viral beyond the WOT community.
I have something I want to do to spread the word that I was going to do after S2 ended but never got around to it. Now I have to make time to do it.
And Happy belated Name-day!
Thanks Winters Lady! I honestly don't know enough about those subjects to be confident enough to make a video about them, but it's a good idea!
Yeah, as a non-bookreader, I thought rafe judkins alluded very vaguely in an interview that season 4-5 would probably be greenlit. He couldn't say upfront more than that in a then post-covid environment. There have been strikes now too. Thank you!👍👍👍🎡🎡🎡⌚️⌚️⌚️
Great points. Thank you!
Good video. I think you totally managed to point out that we as „normal“ people won’t be able to really understand on what basis the choices of greenlighting new seasons are made and in my opinion it’s not always the same reasons even maybe. I see it like in normal business where such choices are not always depending on the same reasons but one alone: in the end there is the wish of making profit… so that is what I will hope for, that this show will stay looking profitable to those who decide about greenlighting. Tnx a lot Lauren! Well done! 👍
Thank you for another great video!! The wheel weaves… ❤
⚠️‼️‼️REMEMBER THE SERIES PERIPHERAL THAT WAS CANCELED? What these producers don’t understand is I’ve been duped before watching a series where there was no completion to the story. I wasn’t informed of cancellation with no ending to the story. I WILL INFORM EVERYONE ON EVERY CHANNEL AND ON EVERY MEDIA OUTLET NOT TO WATCH and suffer the same way I did. There are more examples I should warn people about.
That show was so so good.
Yeah I was really disappointed to see Peripheral get canceled. 😒 But Westworld got canceled early, as did Raised by Wolves. I know those shows were on another streaming channel... but I feel like this problem is industry wide. Especially when it comes to Sci Fi shows for some reason. If they cancel "Foundation" next I'm gonna lose my sh*t. lol
@@KabbalahSherry I’ll have to check out Foundation. Thanks 😊 I bought all seasons of West World.
Very insightful, Lauren. And Happy Birthday! 🎉
Thank you!!
Hello Lauren!! It's always great to see you again. Thanks for another high quality video!
Always the waiting, now it might not be finished! 😢
Great breakdown as always!
I will remain calm ... for now.
I'm surprised season 1 had more views. season 2 was so much better. I'll watch a whole season just to see a couple more Aviendha scenes.
Because season 1 killed any general excitement most people had for the show. It was disastrously bad, and I personally know several people who choose to not bother with season 2, book fans and non-book fans alike. You're right, s2 was much better but people just didn't come back to see it. Season 1 didn't hook people so season 2's improvements fell on deaf ears for many.
@@talmanes4589 makes sense. That's a shame
@@talmanes4589 yes you cant make the first season of a show the worst WoT did it... people lose interest if they dont like S1. They made it on 2 categories bad... decsison to alter the Story in bad ways, and bad production
I watched all of season 1. I really didn’t want to, either. My sister is a huge book fan and I had to convince her to watch episode 4, and she was 100% done after that. I struggled through the second half of the season.
Why? Because I love WoT and wanted to love the show. I just couldn’t. It isn’t good, it isn’t even telling the WoT story. They just got so much wrong.
I didn’t watch season 2, and I have no interest in watching the show again, especially not when my viewership could tacitly show approval of the job Rafe is doing. I *might* hate watch it after it gets cancelled, but not until then.
@@scottfree6479 k
I love your decor ... especially that Dragonsworn headband you have up on the wall. 😉🥰
Haha, it came from a very special person who I love very much ❤️
Welcome to Amazon's: The Wheel of Time, where the plot is made up and the books don't matter.
Amazon failed two-fold with this show. Once when failing to adapt the WoT, then again in failing to make their own compelling fanfic. I still don't understand how fans of the books can say this is good. I checked out after episode 3 and have been hate-watching ever since. I can't even point to a "Well, at least they got this right." Because they didn't. They didn't get anything right.
k
@Alustar22 I think that is the most succinct statement I've seen here regarding the abysmal failure that is Amazon's adaptation (very loosely used term) of RJ's believed WoT. Watching the show, the thing that became most apparent to me is that all it has done is borrow some names from the source material and very little else. Rand's show arc is absolutely removable. His character has done nothing. He's literally the MC, and you could edit him out without any change to Rafe's land of make believe. I understand that the show has some fans, I just desperately wish that they'd find the books, read them, and then find their voice to advocate for a more faithful adaptation.
honestly, after the disasterous season 1 and the mediocre season 2. im not super excited about season 3. will I watch it? yes. but excited? not really
Happy Birthday! It's my Birthday too! 🍻🍰
@@patytrico Happiest of Birthdays!🎂
I'm a massive books fan, I grew up with these. Frankly, the show has been such a huge dissapointment so far that I'd rather not see any more of it as it is to be honest, but that's me
Easy, just don't watch and continue to let the rest of us enjoy it. I personally love the books and like the show (sometimes I love the show, and sometimes I dislike it). But I don't want it to be canceled.
@@UnravelingthePattern Not that easy really. I don't see how my opinion is stopping anyone who wants to watch it from watching it. Frankly, if it was within my power, I would cancel it until someone better shows up to remake it. While you and I may disagree as much as we want, I personally know people who don't want to read the books because they think it's just the same crap as the show. I think we can both agree that this is not good. Preferentially, I'd rather have people read the books than watch the show. As a side benefit, the revenue will flow into RJ's estate instead of others who have abysmally failed at their work. But again, my opinion
The only good thing that can come of this series is people actually reading the books after hearing how much better they are than the show.
Come on people, where are the likes on this video (and so many others)??
Let's support those who love WoT as much as we do and on top of that dedicate hours to produce top quality material!
judging from the last season of house of the dragon....hollywood is messing with all of us knowing that these series are too important for us not to just gobble up whatever stupid decision they make
Telling all my friends to watch it 😭😭
I think people always want to compare the show to the books and always have negative comments that may push people away, I love the show and the books. And it's hard to find creators like yourself who give good insights into both books and show.
"Show continuing will depend on it's success"
"No way that's not how things work"
LMAO
Lol, it's obviously successful. The question is will it continue to be? Jon's video was very clear about how if you compare WoT, RoP and HotD marketing numbers to their viewer numbers, WoT is actually doing very well considering they're getting way lower budgets for production and for marketing than the other 2. WoT is very popular considering the attention they give it.
Living Goddess. Thanks to all life. Joy be everywhere. Rejoice a Living Goddess exists among us!
I hope they finish the show somewhat like the books
Whatever happened to the animated bonus video? I thought they were planning more of those.
Not sure. I believe there was some legal trouble and it got canceled 😞
I'm pretty disappointed with wheel of time adaptation in general, prime studio just no where close to HBO when it comes to high fantasy. this series was completed with book they can follow and still they make a mess out of it. how I wish HBO will be the one handling this series instead.
This thumbnail is genius. Also, ty for being here to keep the fandom sane!
Fantastic video Lauren, positive as always. Bravo.
March 24 rap up date was the second rap up date with the first in November
For which season?
Hopefully they cancel the show and in a few years we get a reboot. Maybe then we will get a proper show.
K
That's really a bummer. I've been hoping that they would stop this farce.
K
Actors gonna act.
Thanks!
Ty
As a fan of the books I'll continue to watch, but the current timeline of a season every 2 years makes way too long of a timeline for keeping casual fans. And the show needs casual fans to tune in just as much as it needs hardcore book fans to keep it going.
And as a general gripe, I just wish Josha Stradowski would actually learn how to use a sword. Rand was obsessed with sword training in the books, meanwhile in the show he barely pulls it from its sheath. I feel like certain writing choices were made because their actor isn't up to par when it comes to wielding a sword. With as much time as they have between seasons there is no excuse for a lack of sword training. Maybe make him take dance classes to learn how to be light on his feet along side the stage combat training.
dont blame the actor only the writers and runners!
It's good that you're trying to be positive but this show is not about reaching broader audience. It's about promoting alternative lifestyles. The seasons cannot stand by themselfs. If you havn't read the books you won't have a clue on what's going on. The characters jump around to where they need to be and conversations between characters do not make much sense.
And if you HAVE read the books, then you'll see that their not anywhere near following the books. They just use the same names and locations but the characters are not the same and events are changed to fit a narrative the directors have.
It's rough as someone that got introduced through the show. But the writers or executives did this. They're writing a show which expects the viewers to have book knowledge while blatantly changing and taking out key things that book readers love.
For example why was matts character given parents that are shitty? played no part in the story. Why was Perrin married just so the character dies. Not needed and really weird considering Perrin and FAlle is a thing.
I have thoughts about Mat's parents, but I'll have to save that for another time.
Edit: I should clarify, I have thoughts on all of this and have mentioned it all in other videos.
Please do a black tower vid I need some explanations about it !
Hopefully some day!
I don't see the ambiguity here.
This show is somewhat expensive and the viewership is not meeting expectations.
It sounded very clear to me that the show viewership needs to improve or the company is simply going to walk away from the expense.
The rest of this in terms of people's "interpretations" of what he said is just pointless theater and drama.
I'm unsure what you know about viewership numbers, but as was stated in this video I don't think that's a concern. As for the rest of the drama, yeah, it's honestly mostly much ado about nothing.
@@UnravelingthePattern I am not understanding why we need to reinterpret what John said. He said the show needs to see viewership like it did in the early episodes of the previous season.
@dracoboar yes, and Sarah said that's not true. I addressed both.
Cancel
Thanks for another well-thought out video. One thing I was glad to see was that there is some precedent for the writers starting prior to the season being greenlit. I'm confident Season 4 will get the go ahead.
I'm more concerned about the 2-year delay between seasons. I can give the studios a pass for the COVID delays, the whole strike thing was totally on them. I watched the first season of Rings Of Power, but have no interest in relearning everything to watch season 2. I quit on The Boys, Witcher, and a couple of others for that reason. I'll watch anything WOT, anytime, but that's about it.
Thanks! Yeah I hope they can figure out a way to do every 18 months at least.
Lets face it Amazon, are closed mouth to the point of paranoia. It is not Johns ( pls forgive spelling if wrong) fault for the info If Amazon do not offer any news people further down the production food chain will give they'r 10 p worth however garbled.
Amazing video! Top quslity, as always.
LOL. I compliment your quality with a low-quality typo :P
I'm really sad that it's not canceled yet.
I'm really sad that people like you comment. Go live your life
Gday Lauren, thanks for this. Tai'shar
As always, great video and I appreciate your take on this. I'd honestly be ok with this show dying out after S3. I held out hope when starting season 2, but they lost me at the ending. The actors are well cast and most of the acting is fine, but the writing (even out of context of the books) just falls way too short for me. Comparing to the books, the amount of gaffes and blatant disregard for lore accuracy and history of the world, intricate details, as well as just straying far too much from the main story and character arcs made me straight up uninterested. Expensive show that just feels cheap and mismanaged fan fiction to me. Brandon Sanderson himself systematically tearing the S2 finale apart during a live watch was the last blow to my hope for this. That said I know many are enjoying it and that's great! It just isn't the "LOTR movies and peak GoT or HoTD" level of adaptation I expected.
A redhair who is doing WOT content? Are you the dragon reborn my guy?
Here had they kept with the books and didn’t verve so far off course I’d absolutely be looking forward to more seasons. That being said this show has absolutely no redeeming qualities.
I wouldn't say the show is that bad. I agree, they should have stayed closer to the source material, but there were a lot of things and scenes, i really think were well done: the casting, Winternight, Weep for Manetheren, Shadar Logoth, the way of the leaf, the warder bond, the Aes Sedai politics, Nynaeve's accepted test, Perrin and Hopper, the browns' detective work, Egwene and Renna.
All in all, i liked S1 better than S2. Unfortunately , it didn't end on a high note, but on the lowest possible. Releasing ep. 8 in such a messy, unpolished state was a huge mistake and one of the main reasons, i guess, why the show lost a great part of its viewership. It's gonna be tough, if not impossible, to win them back now.
Im just sad they took ALOT out of the books, and as a new Reader just finishing my first read it kind of sucks falling in love with characters that i'll never see portrayed. Like Gaul😢
That said i do believe that the show is good enough to continue through 8 seasons at least. There is certainly enough world building and character development that can still happen! This is just another turning of the wheel! when looking at it this way i love it even more. Lets think positive guys/gals😊
Fantastic video as always Bro. S3 can't come soon enough. My 2 cents is that we need more Book to Anime releases. Wheel Of Time would be amazing as an anime, the only issue is nothing animated is taken seriously but having these grand fantastical epics be told through anime opens so many doors to new audiences.