How China was once part of Middle-earth...
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- Опубліковано 5 лип 2024
- In this video, we look at how that for a brief period of time in the early drafts of the Hobbit, China, as well as places like the Gobi Desert and Hindu Kush, were canonically part of Middle-earth.
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“Get ready to learn Chinese, buddies!” - Saruman to the Blue Wizards
So Saruman was the creator of duolingo
@@thekuan7002 The Two Towers (of Babel)
"Would you care for some bing chilling, master Frodo?" (Vine boom)
Perfect.
John Xina would like to apologise for differentiating Taiwan(An integral part of middle earth) and for hurting the feelings of the middle earthen people.
I bet the Wereworms were actually his reimagining of Mongolian Death Worms, which are supposedly in the Gobi Desert.
Surprised you recognized the reference few know of the Mongolian Death Worms in western culture
... Thank you for providing another rabbit hole for me to get lost into
@@ryancarter1080 Yeah, it sounds kind of obvious, if you know about them. Recently they are becoming more popular to fantasy fans, e.g. they were included as sandworms and olgoi-khorkhoi recruitable units in homm2 extension town type of Factory. I wish we had more cross-cultural references is the fantasy genre and more of far east and south (and north) in tolkien lore.
that's what I always assumed the line meant anyways
Super cool cyptid legend, always wanted to see a cool novel about them, temors gets there in some ways but just feels cheap
Wyrm is an Old English word that means an animal with a sinuous body. This includes worms, snakes, lizards, caterpillars, grubs, centipedes, and many others.
nah tolkien just likes changing spellings around, right? Thats what the video says
I'm aware of wyrm. The spelling in the draft was wire-worm.
Speaking of Games Workshop, I actually like their interpretation of the Easterlings being based off of Sassanid Dynasty Persia.
Ottoman/Persian definitely fits because they were both nomadic tribes that eventually settled into empires and threatened western civilization
@Captain_Insano_nomercy Iranian it really depends what dynasty. The Achaemenids and Sassanians were not nomadic originally (granted Achaemenids are always a little hard to track before their imperial ascension).
The only pre Islamic dynasty that definitely were were the Parthians who arguably weren't that Iranian to start with (but definitely became much more over time).
@@thomassaxon8254 the Parthians were not Persians but they were an Iranic people. But honestly that is just a minor nitpick
@@thomassaxon8254 not to be that guy, but you might want to doublecheck that, because Achaemenids were originally nomadic as well. They settled in during the bronze age along with the Medes. I was reading a book about it recently by Lloyd Llewellyn Jones, Persians: the age of the great kings
And I disliked their depiction of the Variags as samurai. WAY too far for the proximity of Khand in relation to Nippon.
The Age of the Ring team came up with a much better design.
I like to head-canon that the far east is Eastern Europe and Asia, the same way Tolkien said the Shire is now modern day London.
Was London nicer when the professor was alive, because if not boy Howdy, is that a downgrade.
@@allthenewsordeath5772 yes he was very anti industrialist. The hobbits also get fucked over by the humans who take their land and hunt em down
some treat tolkien legendarium as pseudo history of ours. And we currentlly live in 7th or 8th age.
The Middle Kingdom in Middle Earth? Makes sense.
Im glad he mostly stayed away from China / East middle earth as I think it would have been very difficult to gently reference the history we know today, as done in gondor / rohan, without that same level of understanding of China as he had for Europe. In fact as you showed that bit from shadow of war, it just looks like old china, not its own thing, when someone tries to interpret it. The architecture of Gondor is unmistakably European but in its own right something entirely different as well, which is not the case for what shadow of war did.
Ok, but "the architecture of Gondor" is mostly an invention of Peter Jackson. He didn't really follow the description Tolkien gives of the city, apart from copying the general shape from the cover of RotK. Tolkien actually described it resembling a Middle-Eastern city, and used a map of 3rd Century AD Jerusalem as inspiration. For reasons I don't understand, Peter Jackson made them French. The architecture, clothing, and armor designs all seem to be inspired by 12th Century French designs. This bothers me, because Tolkien went out of his way to make these people seem Jewish FOR A REASON. Quite apart from Gondor being in the "middle east" of Middle Earth, he was also trying to make Aragorn a Messianic figure straight out of the book of Isaiah (not a parallel to Jesus, but more the kind of Messiah Isaiah himself would have imagined). Also, because he was annoyed that *certain people* tried to take the Judaic elements out of The Hobbit, so he tried to make it impossible to do that with LotR. Actually Minas Tirith should not really look European at all (apart from a bit of Greco-Roman influence perhaps, but it definitely should not be a giant motte-and-bailey castle like is seen in the movies), but more like a combination of the Temple Mount and Petra. Peter Jackson's artistic decisions are not canonical. Tolkien did not only take inspiration from European history and myth, he also used biblical stories, Greek, Egyptian and Sumerian mythology. And his description of Romenna, the harbor city Elendil ruled, was inspired by Roman accounts of Phoenician Carthage. Again, Tolkien really went out of his way to make these people seem NOT European.
You can't really change it because Chinese architecture is already that fantastical IRL. Also the SoW image deviates a lot from actual Chinese architecture, including the placement of a Paifang (gateway) on top of the roof. But you are right that Tolkien wouldn't have enough knowledge about China to do it right. Cathay in Warhammer 3 definitely passed but there's still much left to be desired, also it got off easy since it didn't need to take into cultural stuff that much.
However, if someone wants to do a fanfic, taking the mainstream/court culture during the Zhou with aesthetical consideration from the Xia and Shang as well, it can paint a very different China than what the incorrect stereotype people have of ancient China usually portrays and still remain accurate and unmistakable, to a Chinese that is.
@@sophiejones3554 What? Movie Gondor looks nothing like Medieval French architecture, it's mainly Roman inspired. The fashions isn't French at all either. Peter Jackson did use Mont-Saint-Michel as an inspiration for the general shape of Minas Tirith, but that's because they are both multi-layered fortress sitting on a mount (and none of them look like a motte-and-bailey ffs). And Gondor is not particularly inspired by the Jews in the books either (unlike the Dwarves), but by Ancient Egypt, also with strong parallels to the Roman / Byzantine Empire. Also Númenor is very reminiscent of both the myths of Atlantis and Arcadia.
it would have been really ignorant and racist, given his background. I'm glad he didn't do it so Chinese and other Asians can enjoy his work and instead of looking at it with extreme cringe. Africa and Middle-East, not so lucky.
@@Bombur888 The dwarves aren't that inspired by actual Jews. There's a kind of resemblance to Jewish stereotypes but that isn't the same. They are pretty much just the dwarves/Svartalvar of Germanic tradition (they were characterized as greedy long before there were any Jews in Germany, the svartalf archetype was applied to Jews not the other way around). Remember, the name "Gimli" is ADUNAIC, as is clearly stated in the Appendices of LotR. It's not his real dwarvish name. It's Adunaic that has the distinctly Hebraic flavor, "Gimli" meaning "star" is practically identical to the word with the same meaning in Hebrew. The fragments of attested Khuzdul do not give the same vibes.
If the place had looked Egyptian I wouldn't be complaining. If it had looked like ancient Tyre, I wouldn't be complaining. If it had looked like medieval Byzantium even, I would not be complaining. It looked like f-cking France. I have been there, I would know. Tolkien did not like French stuff, he was an Anglo-Saxon fanboy who viewed the Norman invasion as a tragedy. I am a Francophile myself, I like French stuff, but it has no business in LotR because Tolkien did not.
Nobody:
Minas Tirith Blacksmiths: "Where's all our work?"
"Ah, yes, Lord Denethor found your work too expensive, but there are still swords being made. Here's one:
"It says Made in Rhun on it..."
"...its name is Â-Mâzon, Breaker of Souls."
They took our jeeeb
If the Danes ever sailed up to Tol Eressea they'd burn the city, seize the palantir, and make the Teleri pay a Danegeld, while Manwe sat on Taniquetil and took counsel on what to do about it.
The would suffer the same fate as the Great Armament,Eru would bury them as well. Danes are Middle Men,not Edain like the Numenorians.
@@c.antoniojohnson7114 Yes, but this makes my point. Eru would do it while the Valar themselves do nothing. I know Eru and the Valar's actions here are informed by Tolkien's Catholicism, but I've never liked this aspect of his writing.
@@c.antoniojohnson7114
"Middle Men" is an Elvish and Numenorean term for their contemporary peoples in the First, Second, Third, and presumably Fourth Age. How do you determine whether the Danes would be deemed as them, and not, say, "Men of Darkness"? After all the Dunedain did not use "Men of Darkness" only for nations serving Sauron, but also nations deemed not Northern Atani - Edainic in descent. What is it that makes the Danes Edainic?
In my headcanon, both the Blue Wizards took the form of old Asian men, and went to the far east of Arda where there is an entire land inspired by ancient China far beyond Sauron's reach
In mine they went to India and became Vishnu and Krishna (they're blue too).
This is some Cathay level shit
I only agree with you on one part. The Blue Wizards are definitely in China/ Rhûn.
The blue wizards are Confucius and Lao Tzu
Well Tolkien shrouds what happened to them in mystery but does say that they entered the lands of the enemy. Plus Sauron spent tons of time in the East where none of the free peoples could stop him. He does later say that the blue wizards purpose was to resist Sauron in the far east and must’ve played a large part in hindering Sauron’s plans in the second and third age.
The Istari didn’t enter middle earth just to mess around. They came with a purpose entrusted to them. Whether they all stayed true to this purpose to the very end is another story though.
Not click-bait at all. Another great video.
Nice video like always! The "wereworms" were based on the cryptid Mongolian Death Worms. I forgot the video where I saw it, but it surprisingly mentioned this early Tolkien draft of Bilbo going to China to fight the death worms.
I love the Aelfwine framing device, it really helps bring the setting to life.
MERP actually fleshed out the east quite a bit, and Khamul the Easterling is actually implied as a kind of Chinese emperor of sorts in MERP.
There's also LotRO where the Easterlings are more treated as mongols to some extent in costuming mixed with some of the more middle eastern pieces mixed in, probably due to the conquests in history at the time
As a Chinese person, the Easterlings seem more similar to the Persian(especially) Sassanid dynasties or the Medieval Turkish dynasties in Iran and Central Asia.
@@KaiHung-wv3ulSame here. I still have a feeling Khamul is implied as a Chinese emperor in particular since his nickname was "the Dragon King" in MERP
@@user-rr2ui5dx5y Haven't played MERP(Middle Earth Role Playing?), is it good?
@@KaiHung-wv3ulthe "Easterlings" that we actually see in the movies were supposed to be axemen of Khand, we never actually see any proper Easterlings/Men of Rhun.
Well it still is.... Technically...
A well made video. I really enjoyed this one.
3:02 "yes, Bilbo Baggins and China existed in the same universe!"
The way this line is delivered is pure gold. Truly something only an assiduous Tolkien reader could say
Excellent video! You made a lot of good points I like
can we do MERP lore like Ciryatandor in Harad?
I’d love that! Lots of cool lore hidden in old tabletop RPGs.
Interesting video as always. Enjoy watching them. Just one quick thing to mention 2:13 the artwork on screen is attributed to Ted Nasmith but it’s actually a painting by John Howe called “The Siege of Angband”
Really cool information! Now I’m inspired with the idea of a Middle-Earth tabletop RPG campaign set in the equivalent of Ancient China.
yessss the wild were worms have been mentioned and Hindu Kush sounds very smokeable for bilbo. :)
Great video! I personally like to image wereworms as snakemen
This is awesome and I felt the title was a fair representation of the video
So glad I subbed here early
This was really interesting and I think the title is fine
My greatest hope is that someday, far in the future when the Tolkien IP expires, some brilliant classical Asian author who loves Tolkien and knows it intimately will give us a 'Red Book of the East.'
We'll get the tales, victories and struggles of the people's of the East. I refuse to believe it was simply eastern men = bad. The reality is it was probably a pretty vast and complex space full of tragedy, wonder and heroism.
That would be fascinating but I doubt any author that good would want to spend that much time writing in someone else's universe.
We really don't need stuff like that. Let Tolkien's work be Tolkien's work.
eh... yeah bro... you are currently living in the 7th age of middle earth. it has always been our world
The Hobbit was not part of the Legendarium when Tolkien first wrote it.
Exactly, and if you hear a random calm and graceful voice out of nowhere. It's an Elf.
Shadow of War took a lot of poetic license for the game but I always felt like the major themes of Tolkien were so well preserved that it’s worth overlooking the stretching of the Lore
The Middle Kingdom in Middle Earth
I love these fascinating glimpses into the "what might have been" setting of The Hobbit, almost as if it was set in the slightly more recent past (within the last century or so). That would also help explain all of Bilbo's modern anachronisms! 😁
Quaint of you to think you need clickbait to encourage me to click on one of your videos, when I just see a new Darth Gandalf video and I immediately open it regardless of the title.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are direct references to Rome and Babylon in the Fall of Gondolin as well
Would be fun to have a follow-up video exploring what fan sources have done with this area or Arda.
Fascinating! This makes me want to try the shadow games despite some of their ridiculous adaptions of the lore... would still be great to explore that world more
So... what are the Orocarni?
Maybe Altai, possibly together with connected ranges such as Tian Shan, Sayan etc... Gobi and Taklamakan deserts are right east of Altai
@@popularmisconception1 Taklamakan is far south of Altai, Gobi is very, very far east of Altai. Learn basic geography before commenting.
Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-Earth shows a region east of the Orocarni (mountains of Rhun) that vaguely looks like China.
So if there's a China-Analogue in Middle-Earth it would probably be there.
NOT “click bait”! Wife & I were listening to The Hobbit on a road trip and I made the same suggestion that the “last desert” was in ancient China and now you’ve backed it up with a source. Thanks!! Great obscure lore!
Let’s go Warhammer Fantasy mention!
You were skeptical, but trust me I’ve thought about this as well and you’re spot on..
This is the kind of thing I imagine when I hear “fun fact.” Great video!
I got a video suggestion…. Would you, maybe be interested in making different ranking videos. Like one where you rank, all the chapters in each of the lotr books, one where you rank your favorite characters, etc.
I haven’t seen any lotr channel to do this,so it would be fun if you could do it.
Btw love the videos.
Not click bait, I knew exactly what you were referring to.
You should do a video on the shadow of Mordor games. I actually really enjoy them
Because China in Mandarin is “中国” “Zhong-guo” and “中” means "middle“。
中囯意思中王国。
Cool video. I just wanted to point out though that "drarves not dwarfs" isn't Tolkien "changing up the spelling" that's just how plurals ending on an "f" syllable works in English. The plural of wolf is wolves, the plural of knife is knives, the plural of leaf is leaves, etc.
0:40 what about Hengist and Horsa, Cedric, Beowulf or any of Bede's stories about the early history of the angles and Saxons and also the jutes
Must admit I do love the small numbered references to places in our world. Like I think in Nature of ME, there is a refer me to Minas Tirith being Mesopotamia (potentially off on that as I did read it when it first came out, but I remember a reference along these lines).
didn't seem clickbait to me
good video
I love your videos! :)
There's a subject I have been curious about for a while now, which is how much Gandalf knew about Cirith Ungol & Shelob. He never brings it up as a viable route for the fellowship, but he seems to know about it when it comes up later, which makes me wonder if he would have considered it if Moria had not been accessible, but I am unsure. It seems like it would depend on whether he knew Shelob was there, or was simply hoping to avoid going by Minas Morgul.
I'm sure they'd be claiming areas of Middle-earth
This is something I've actually known for years and poked fun at with some Tolkien fans, most which had no clue what I was talking about. We're talking some dedicated ass super fans. In fact, I think I can add something to this video too. The were worms were probably not dragon, they were likely based on the mythological Mongolian Death Worms.
Title is very justified
never mind about the wireworms.
In an interesting parallel, did you know that China was once a part of the Firefly universe? ;)
If you want an obscure subject, do a video on the Mewlips. Possibly the most obscure part of the Tolkien's Legendarium that I've ever come across.
Given that middle earth is a mythic prehistory of our own world, by the time of Aragorn’s reign, perhaps the semi-mythical Xia Dynasty reigns in Rhûn
then what would be Numeron? Atlantis?
@@equilibrum999the Quenya word for Numenor is "Atlantë" my dood.
Could u maybe talk about the merp lore
If I casted the Blue Wizards I'd make one of them middle eastern-looking and one of them Asian.
I like the one fan art of the two blue wizards together where one of them is wearing a turban and the other wears a chinese hat, and both of them look like the biblical wise men from the east
@@blueshit199They probably did become sages that laid the foundation for "eastern wisdom."
They were meant to remain in western Middle-earth, so they were probably European looking, and the Istari couldn't change their physical form (fana) like regular Maiar. Then again, It never describes any Istari as European looking. I'm just assuming that they did look European to blend in as normal old men from the region, but I could be wrong. They just would have had to be sent to Middle-earth in those fanar already, without the intention of them travelling east.
@@miscie-28 The Blue Wizards went east shortly after their arrival in Middle-Earth. I don't think that was by chance; it makes more sense that their mission was to work against Sauron in those lands. So, their physical forms probably looked like a typical inhabitant of those areas.
@@istari0 Yeah, I think you're right! I had a memory of Tolkien saying that the wizards techinically failed their task by going to the east because they were supposed to help the western resistance, but I can't find that quote now. I must have misread something as a kid. I always thought that made no sense. Eastern fana blue wizards ftw!
Do a video on Gondor's worst king. Or which kings were the worst
In Japanese mythology Nakatsukuni (中つ国) is literally the land between heaven and the underworld in which humans live.
It is used in the Japanese translation of Lord of the Rings, which makes perfectly sense.
It is likely not related to the Chinese term zhōngguó 中国 (middle kingdom; the original meaning was central lands), but in earlier times the term might have also had a mythological meaning.
中国 literally is Middle Earth
Shadow of Mordor/War had an "Ancient China" inspired place, but that's of course non-canon.
The middle kingdom of middle earth?
I don't think the title is misleading
The map is the real map altered
I still stand by Ælfwine (Ereol) and him travelling the straight road to Tol Eressea, as that ties together the poetic worldbuilding-crafts of Tolkien with real life, and sort of would let us have that "slither" of hope that the realms of the fantastical and supreme isn't forever gone, leaving us with the mundane that would be left.
That's a nice sentiment.
@@DarthGandalfYT Also, like a sad "tug" at the heartstring feeling that such a wonderous world is forever lost to us, Ereol in my mind (I think) represents that glimmer of connection, of hope that the greater-than-great that is Aman is still there. I know that all of J.R.R. Tolkiens legendarium is made up (not unlike words and numbers.. ba dum tss) but still, It's hard to explain the love of the worldbuilding one might grow from reading Tolkien's books.
Finally ❤️🧡💛💚💙💜
I love your videos and have requested this exessivly 😂😂😂
Also i believe Were-Worms could be a reference to the blood of the dragon myth of chinese dynasties.
Repulsive furry.
UA-camr "Fat Monkey" needs to see this video! His my favourite chinese person.
I'm glad that China and the Far East in general was left out of Middle Earth. Imagine generalizing an entire group of real world people and real world cultures as evil men.
In light of the ultimate analogue with Afro-Eurasia, could Amman and the Undying Lands be said to be an analogue for the Americas?
Yes, in a way. The Americas are that landmasses that remain after Valinor was removed from our plane of existence by the end of the Second Age.
In the Akallabeth of the Silmarillion, it describes how Aman/Valinor (the Undying Lands) was diminished from the world and taken into the realm of hidden things, and that new lands and new seas were made. As a result, the Straight Road was made which is the route that left Middle-earth's curvature through sky and space to the land of Aman. Therefore it's likely that the American continents were the new lands that took the place of Aman.
"For Ilúvatar cast back the Great Seas west of Middle-earth, and the Empty Lands east of it, and new lands and new seas were made; and the world was diminished, for Valinor and Eressëa were taken from it into the realm of hidden things." - The Silmarillion, Akallabeth: The Downfall of Númenor.
Funny how china in Chinese is zhong guo or middle kingdom maybe china is already middle earth lol
In fact, when LOTR was translated in Chinese, they used the same word they use for Midgard, the Norse realm. Otherwise, imagine the confusion of Chinese reader when they see "Middle Earth" thinking the story is set in China
@@NIDELLANEUM middle earth is 中土世界 and midgard is 中土大陆, so yeah essentially the same
I Believe it is pronounced "Blah-Door-Thin". Not trying to be a jerk, Simply trying to help.
"China" in chinese Is "Zhong guo", which literally means "middle kingdom" or "middle country"............ Coincidence???
在大古时代中，在西周朝之时，中国写文为中或。
The Qing dynasty sent its armies to aid Sauron against the last alliance of Elves and Men
Good video - I always sort of assumed there was a China equivalent in Tolkien'a universe but figured it just never factored into the narrative.
As much as I love Tolkien I actually prefer Robert E. Howard's Hyborian pre history.
This is Middle-Earth. Midgard.
Sargon (Mesopotamia) in China? Sigh.
There is plenty of evidence of humans living underground for long durations of time, to-do so successfully without electricity would have been a form of technology in itself,,,, needless to say its pretty obvious that such technology during those periods of history would have become legend....! KMT
So Valinor is North America and the Elves went there to become native americans?
I wonder, if a China-esque empire existed in Middle-Earth, would it actually align itself with Sauron, or maybe would it try challenging him, using its remote location and geographical barriers to their advantage?
Given that Men were first corrupted by Morgoth in the East, and those who rejected it escaped westward, they probably would back Sauron. Though the geography is vague enough that it's possible that some fled to the eastern fringes instead.
@@ingold1470 I've always wondered in versions where the world was always round, wouldn't the eastern shore also have that noble proximity to the Valar that only western middle-earth had in flat versions? I mean, Morgoth was there for a while but he went back to Beleriand relatively quickly. Maybe the pacific ocean was too big or something.
With first Morgoth and then Sauron around, I doubt an empire of Men similar to China could have arisen.
@@biggusballuz5405Chinese used Buddhism to disguise Taoist spells and rituals during the Yuan Dynasty. There is a video by Benebell Wen on UA-cam that explains it in great detail
@@ingold1470no, they will back sauron to a certain extent but they will not submit to his rule. They will claim the next morgoth themselves and fight a civil war to pick the next ruler. After sauron got defeated, they should be the next antagonist.
I wish China was real 😔
Click-bait...or 'click-beetles'? You decide
I wonder...if the far east exists in Middle Earth...then what about the New World AKA: the Americas?
It's not "elf-wine" it's "elf-win-eh".
>calls Atlantis a "fictional tale"
NGMI
It's pronounced "Where-Worm".
No, they were Wireworms. Watch the rest of the video.
@@miscie-28 if you read my later comment, you would've seen I said "Nevermind about the wireworms".
@@HeroClone99 What later comment? There is no replies before mine.
@@miscie-28 that's because it's a new comment not a reply to my 1st comment.
@@HeroClone99 I agree with both of you
中國 中華 中土 means middle earth
Please dont give ccp any ideas
they have in Tibet changed the meaning of some local village/town from 中甸 to 上格里拉, basically Shangri-la.
Imagine if one of the blue wizards had his cloak coated thick with the yellow sand of the Gobi desert and he proceeded to impart to the "Chinese Emperor" some wisdom which in turn leading him to be revered as a wise sage. The encounter thus set the stage for later generations to assume the Buddha visited China and converted the Emperor to Buddhism.
Middle Earth has been a part of China since ancient times. I have an ancient map from the 1930s that proves it.
Harad = North Africa.
Far Harad = The rest of the African continent going south.
Rhûn = Middle East
Khând = Asia
👍
But what if China [中国] itself was Middle Earth? 中 is center, middle, 国 is country, land, so it can mean earth, and thus.
Modern China kinda looks like modern Mordor, to be honest...
Modern China is one of the most naturally beautiful countries in the world. They have the most UNESCO World Wonders on the entire planet. I think you’re looking for India, or Brazil.
I can bet 100% you've never been to China. But sure, read more propaganda pieces feed to you by Americans.
7:09 An Empire or a loose coalition of kingdoms?
At one time, China was warring kingdoms.
And it is quite possible that the palaeolithic life style emperors ruled much smaller territory than all of China ... or if not that it soon disintegrated.
Perhaps temporarily united under Khamul. (Checked some comments below).
That's why he don't like Dune :D
There are more similarities with india if you delve deep. Harad, four ages, battle at the end of third age, 9 servants of dark lord. Elrond is krishna, who departed and fourth age began.
Definitely not.
-1000.000.0 social credit.