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Did I make the right decision? | Welshpool Mid Wales Airport | EV97 Eurostar
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- Опубліковано 8 сер 2020
- This video is from summer 2019 when I took a mate flying in the Eurostar to Welshpool airfield. As I made my final approach to the runway, the based air ambulance EC145 announced it was ready for departure. I'm not confident I handled the situation as well as I could have but have decided to share this video in the hope it provokes a discussion and may help me and others to make better decisions when faced with a similar situation. Thanks for watching!
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#decisionmaking #pilotlife
This is one of the reasons I enjoy your videos Rory, they are honest and not edited to hide mistakes. This makes them entertaining and also a useful learning tool for a novice like me. Keep up the good work.
David Smeaton thanks very much David. I’m glad you find my videos interesting. 👍
I was a HEMS pilot and what you did was fine. As you will find out, helicopter crews are infinitely flexible. Concentrate on your landing and not add to their job tally!
Excellent comment, thanks very much Chris.
I am/was fixed wing so can only really comment from that perspective. GA going around would be one of the things that would elicit genuine irritation and creative language from us owing to the increased workload and delay. Obviously if the Go Around is needed that’s one thing, but to go around to be helpful would be very irritating.
Flying Si Tech, Reviews and Aviation well
I’m glad I didn’t then!
Helimed pilot told you to go ahead, you did that and I dont see the issue. He could have said they needed to lift urgently and asked you to go around and give way to their requirement but they didn't.
Yes, that's very true - I hadn't considered that but you're right.
Your contrition and candour will increase the likelihood of you, eventually, retiring with all bits intact. That's professionalism for you, as is welcoming this learning opportunity. Keep up the good work!
Thanks very much Iain. I sincerely hope you're right and I'm quite sure my wife does too!
Well done for being candid enough to air a complex situation and open yourself up for a bit of constructive criticism. If everyone always did everything 100% correct, the world would be a perfect place. There are 3 parties involved : You; Helimed & Welshpool. You announced and later clarified your intentions. I'm sure the Helimed pilot is a hugely capable aviator and would have co-ordinated differently if the need had arisen. He appeared to be able to accept the 45 second delay to his departure (what a pleasant, considerate professional) bet he remembers what it was like when he had substantially less hours. Well done you, as well, for being conscientious enough to go over the approach & landing in your own mind. I think people of your mindset (reviewing their actions; trying to do things better; willing to learn and do better) are more likely to make better pilots in the longer run. One observation (not a criticism) is that I have heard said is that if a straight in approach is utilised, this can be a deviation to a more standard (e.g. overhead) join and in doing so, there is a (small) chance that the change of routine can upset one's normal routine/check list/operations.... and that can have unintended consequences. I have found that co-ordinating with other traffic making a straight in approach is also far harder (I don't know if it's a mindset that if on (long) final that aircraft "secures" priority (whether or not that might be the case)). In summary, if everyone (and clearly helicopters operate a little differently) maintains a uniform join (or at least announces/updates their position, it greatly helps the other airfield users maintain situational awareness. Keep up a conscientious approach & please keep sharing. You help us all. Many thanks.
Thanks very much indeed Graeme for your considered comment. I'm glad you like the style of videos I'm making and it's helpful for me to learn and discuss things like this with the community so if others find it useful / entertaining then it's a win win all round. All the best, Rory
Another fantastic video Rory. I do look forward to them. Hope the helicopter doesn’t take you permanently away from microlights.
Cheers Steve, I have no intention of letting that happen. Microlight flying can't be beaten in terms of 'fun for the money' I don't think.
Great video, thank you for posting Rory. Once you declared 'long final', all your decisions afterwards were spot on. But your decision to declare 'long final' WAS the problem because it locked down the whole airfield including the air ambo who then had to wait for you (which in turn resulted in you devoting half of the video to discussing your decision). Declaring a long final, unless in an emergency is not usually a good move in my experience and I always try for an overhead join whenever possible because it's easier fit in with everyone else without f***ing them up! 😬👌👍
Yes, fair point Kevin. I usually opt for overhead joins as it's safer but I like to practice other methods when I have a good opportunity which it seemed to be this time as it was quiet.
Rory On Air
You’re right Rory, you do have to try these things, which is why you’re becoming an accomplished pilot 👌👍
@Rory on Air Great video. I am early on studying LAPL so find this massively informative and really enjoy your deconstruct. I can imagine your workload on approach here was high enough anyway. Your clear comms meant that everyone appeared to know what was happening. I guess as a less experienced and lower hours pilot I would have considered an early orbit on first contact mentioning the helimed lift, but who was to say the helimed may have not been ready for 5 mins. Thank you for sharing and keep up the great work. 👍
Thanks Mark. I must admit the Helimed was ready a lot faster than I expected. It takes me about 8 mins in the Cabri to be ready to lift!
Right decision for me. You’d committed to the approach and they knew where you were and what you were doing. Thanks for sharing a valuable learning experience and definitely don’t beat yourself up on this one.
stueyn62 thanks very much for watching. 👍
I remember there used to be a little general store in Knockin. It was Genuinely called The Knockin Shop. True
Ha ha - I really hope this is true. 🤣
Absolutely did it right. At the end of the day, in this situaiton, you're captain, ultimately your call, but you both came to a clear understanding & stuck to it. Nice job.
Nik F thanks very much Nik. 👍
Enjoyed watching your trip to Welshpool. Your friend Stewart is quite a character!
Afia Haziq thank you! Yes it was good laugh that flight with Stu. 👍
Stuart is probably every pilots favourite passenger. Loved the banter between you two. The Helimed pilot seemed well in control of his situation and knew exactly where you were. He was happy with the set up, and I'm 100% sure he would have requested something other if he felt you were hindering matters. Personally a go round would have increased atc workload, and the helimed pilot would then be thinking where you were, thereby increasing his workload. Getting on deck as soon as you could was the right thing as a last decision having already descended below 300ft.
Grest video as always Rory.
Tim Kirk thanks very much Tim. I’m glad you think I did ok in this situation. Stuart is a great character and we certainly had a good laugh. Cheers, and thanks for watching.
I think you did the best you could. It sounds like you learned from your mistake and it will give you better decision making skills in the future. You are very humble for sharing this with the public. I guess what I'm saying is that you are still learning so take the lesson as part of your aviation career. I think you are a brilliant young man and you are going to be a great pilot 👍
Ah thanks Ronnie, you're too kind. It's great that people have shared so much of their own insights here already and I only uploaded the video this morning! All the best.
I was interested to read all of the comments Rory but especially pleased to see that there was a response from Chris the helmed pilot. Which totally supported what you had done and for the record it is what I think I would have done for all of the other reasons you stated. 👍
Thanks very much Tim and yes, great to get Chris' expert view.
As a private pilot, I think I probably would have done the same as you and landed the aircraft - doing a go around may have caused a further obstruction to the take off of the air ambulance depending which direction they were going, and it may have caused confusion due to them expecting you to land.
Totally agree...
Sean Glossop thanks for your considered comment Sean. I just hate to think that I may have got in the way.
Agree with Sean, all parties were in good comms and knew what was going on. Helimed had only come to the hover as you were approaching the threshold so you didn't really cost him any time. Good point about the 'long final' though 😊
Oh, and one thing I've been reminded about in the past is that when announcing a 'straight-in' it is technically a 'straight-in, giving way'.
"Entering the ATZ on a long final", maybe technically incorrect but I'd have known where to look. As for the helimed factor; I suspect the crew would have asked to go first if they really needed to. Given that it was quiet in the zone you could have offered break off and orbit to facilitate departure. I think the only risky thing you did, and I'm guilty of this, was to speed up the approach to facilitate someone else. It's understandable but your mission should be to get on the ground safely and limit deviations. I think the majority of the time the safest action is the one that slows down the tempo of all activities/decision making. All in all, nothing to there to be overly concerned about - now you know to include HEMS/SAR activity into your arrival brief....... and thanks to your video I'm now going to add that to my arrival planning. Thanks for sharing.
Excellent shout - I will adopt that as well at airfields that have that like Welshpool, Caernarfon and Tatenhill etc.
Great honesty here Rory. For me, it's what this is ALL about. In hindsight its easy to judge these situations and think we've not done the best job but I think you did well. You sped up, you were in contact with them and you had all options running through your head. Easy for me to say but another option upon hearing the HeliMed in a rush (though not ready yet) maybe to hold outside the ATZ and continue approach once they'd gone. Again - the heli wasn't ready by this point and I guess if it was they could've just cracked on anyway! Great video ....and good numbers coming in for it! AND congrats on the 4k.....
Thanks very much Ben. Great that so many people have engaged with the discussion here too.
Beautiful flight Rory and green countryside views. They probably allowed you to land priority, as your friend wanted an A380 breakfast. lol
ha ha - quite possibly yes!
Clear comms and situation appropriate - you're overthinking, as you state at your 300ft point, you could add risk by going around.
Thanks for watching. 👍
A good honest video Rory, and thank you for posting it. As you say, we all keep learning whilst flying.
The helimed Alpha suffix is important and thanks for highlighting the significance and what it means. I think I would have elected to fly to deadside once I’d heard that they were spooling up, to give the priority traffic the opportunity to takeoff unencumbered by you, but you did have clear audio discussion and he knew your intentions, and as others have said he didn’t ask you to abort.
Strictly speaking once you have called final, even long final, then the runway is yours, and so all other traffic should have waited for you (I had a Ryanair stuck behind me going into Carcassonne after I was advised by ATC to call long and then short final) - but even though you may have right of way its not good airmanship to block priority traffic from departing.
One thing you could have done at or before your decision point was to call final to land, that way he knows where you are and your intentions.
When he called ready for departure, it’s a tough one, you’d called long final, you had priority over the runway and so it was valid for you to land. Given his Alpha prefix perhaps reasonable to abort, since he was on your right then I’d have gone left to get out of his way. As long as you don’t climb up into circuit height your chance of conflict with other traffic is low, go left, get out of the helimed way, then re integrate with the circuit.
This does illustrate one of the reasons for the overhead join. I very rarely do straight in approaches, and again in hindsight that might have been a better choice to enable assimilation of traffic which is your responsibility as PIC.
Thanks for posting Rory
Geoffrey Coan excellent feedback Geoffrey, thank you. With more experience under my belt now I think I would have gone around and left the area clear for the helicopter but I was still relatively new to it all last summer. I’m glad you enjoyed the video.
Your videos are great, keep going I’m sure you will hit 50k subscribers in no time
Thanks very much - I hope you're right!
Hey Rory, thanks for sharing another insightful video. I fly out of Lee and Solent and we share it with the Coastguard. I think the callsign changes to rescue in an emergency. Whilst training and once after I've had my licence I've encountered the Coastguard firing up and getting ready to go on a 'shout' when I was on or near finals. I've always gone around and I think I would in the future. On all occasions I don't think I was in any jeopardy. It looks like you might be losing some sleep over this - perhaps give them a call - would be interesting to get their perspective.
That's interesting Chris. I am working on a video where I fly right over the top of your home base in the heli actually. I hope someone from the helimed units sees this and may wish to comment. It was so long ago I'm sure they will have long since forgotten!
Dark rum and ginger beer with squeezed lime and crushed ice, it’s called a dark and stormy, very nice give it a try, I usually make a large pitcher up as it’s very moorish. Great video 👍.
Sellit Bang yes, now we’re talking!
Rory On Air remember Rory, I’m not going to give you measurements as that depends on what kind of low level , high level flying hangover you want 😂😂😂.
My two cents worth! I always call "X" miles final for exactly the reason you've identified - it creates uncertainty and "long" final means different things to different pilots. The reality of the situation is that, as others have said, 30 seconds won't make a blind bit of difference to the Helimed mission however, I would undoubtedly have offered to orbit in present position (non-standard I accept), or leave the circuit to re-join if their departure was urgent. No harm done in the end but a good lesson learned about creating uncertainty.
Excellent point about stating the number of miles from the threshold on final for clarity, thanks Ian.
If you had let the heli go with only 10-30 seconds behind him to land, you would have encountered severe rotor downwash which may have caused you to loose the aircraft at the touchdown point. You made the right decision. The only other option if you were concerned would have been to break off the approach very early and do a few orbits to give yourself time separation behind the Heli and let them go. I would have done the same as you. Less hazards for all parties!
Great point about the downwash. Thanks for watching and your comment.
Im based out EGCW, if you call the correct distance on final and the helimed says you have time just carry on as usual. if worst comes to worst you just taxi down to Charlie holding point near 04 to let them go.
Thanks for your comment Connor.
Hi Rory, my personal take on this is that I don't normally do straight-in approaches as there are less options apart from a climb into the overhead on the deadside. I also don't normally climb straight out either (unless that's what is called for by the airfield) in case I'm in conflict with inbound traffic which maybe difficult to see, I'd rather make a circuit and depart from the downwind leg or climb into the overhead before departing. I'd have broken off my approach once I heard the heli was about to depart and declared I was going to leave the ATZ and then rejoin once the heli had departed. But I think it's good that you shared this for others to learn from and that you've clearly thought about this since the incident.
Cheers Jason. I do tend to do overhead joins for situational awareness but like to practice other methods when conditions favour it, which I think they did this time.
@@RoryOnAirIt's always great to practice things Rory - I'm sure you're getting lots of practice in in the G2. Well one thing this video has done is inspire me to go into Welshpool for a visit, I notice their cafe is now open Saturday to Wednesdays!
Jason R Wilkinson excellent - very friendly place and the lemon drizzle cake is first rate.
Nice one Rory! Thanks for sharing!
My opinion about the situation at Welshpool: I see your concern, however personally I think you're just a bit hard on yourself.
The Heli didn't sound to be in a hurry although you might not be able to hear it.
On the otherhand they also could tell you if they have to depart a.s.a.p. So you could choose other options to delay your arrival by a (few) orbits, or divert from the long final and fly to a normal join.
I think what might be an option in the future with a medi heli, (easy speaking from the couch) to add for example a 30-ish second to the ETA.
In that case you won't have to expedite and you can still land earlier than they'll expect.
Or another option, just briefly ask if they should have right of way due to a emergency.
My vision on the go around is to go to the lefthand side, because people are serious looking for traffic, you can climb up in a few degrees left of runway heading to circuit altitude while flying towards the crosswind leg (this also buys you time to lookout for traffic) and turn downwind from the inside of the pattern as long as you (as mentioned by you) do not have to turn too steep.
But please let me know if you think I'm wrong :D I'm not trying to be a smart ass, we're all learning.
Keep up the good work! Cheers
Thanks for your comment Kevin. I wasn't keen to go left due to the potential for oncoming traffic to be honest. I agree that the helimed could have said if they really needed to get away immediately but I don't want to add to their workload. Hopefully by sharing this it'll help avoid others having similar conundrums in future.
@@RoryOnAir I think you made a good and safe decision. don't be to hard on yourself. Its nice to give these situation some thought for future situations indeed. Cheers!
Hey Rory. You're over analysing this. As previous commentators have said, you did fine. Always good to reflect on one's actions, and very rarely are our actions perfect, but it was clear to everyone what you were doing, and so no harm done/risk taken.
The Flying Reporter cheers Jon. That certainly seems to be the consensus which is great.
As a student pilot i really appreciate you making these videos and putting yourself out there for scrutiny, so that we might be able to learn from them.
For me as a student i would say .... make my actions predictable, you was in communication. You offered to give way, you flew in a safe and predictable manner. I think i would have done exactly as you did.
Best wishes
Chris
crisjpalmer thanks very much Chris, I’m glad you think I did ok on this one. I hope your flying is going ok.
@@RoryOnAir I did my first Solo last week .... so i am over the moon.
I love watch your videos and @BenAtkinson, especially because you both fly in a very different setting to me.
I am learning at Southend EGMC which is controlled airspace, so the thought of having to make those decisions is quite daunting. Lots of people are scared of class D, but i don't know any different yet and i quite enjoy the safety net of having highly skilled controllers baby sitting me in their airspace.
Also the thought of landing on a small or grass airstrip is scary, potentially i could pass my GST with having never landed on anything other than a 1 mile concrete runway !!!!
I will definitely be looking to get some extra tuition post PPL Training.
All the best
Chris
crisjpalmer yes, Ben’s channel is excellent. Sounds like you’re in a great setting to learn a lot of useful skills. Once you have your licence you can fly to some local strips with other pilots and get some experience that way. It all seems daunting at first but you’ll soon be dropping into strips and loving it. Sounds like you’ve got a good cautious attitude which is good too. I’m sure you’ll be great. 👍
Great video , wouldn't sweat it personally , if the heli-med needed priority on departure he would have let you know , maybe a notified orbit in or outside the ATZ would have sufficed if needed to assist departure
Andrew Martin yes, I didn’t think of that at the time but it’s been suggested by a few people here and I think it’s worth keeping in mind for next time. Cheers.
The perfect vision is always 20-20 hindsight..... The thing is.... Indecision is possible the most reason accidents happen... Sticking to your plan with clarity of thought was without doubt the best thing to do...
Thanks John. This is reflected in what a helimed pilot has messaged me about on social since seeing this. Me sticking to my predictable approach path was the best thing to do in his view so that's good.
My ears started to wiggle when I heard your mate mention bacon buddies.....lol Back in 96' when I lived in Wales they had them every morning but without the egg. We started a trend with them because we begged them to start putting egg on them instead of just butter and bacon and by the time we left town I think we had them hooked on them. Maybe thats why you have egg on them now in England too, us Americans started it.....lol Nice choice on the landing, as close as it was getting totally out of the sky sooner was a perfect choice!!! Cheers Rory!!!
dick moore cheers Dick, for you comment and the application of hot egg in a buttie! Cheers
Hi Rory it feels like to me you're a very conscientious pilot and being so there's always going to be some issues and anomalies that crop up . I think you weighed the pros and the cons up and looking at the time 30 seconds over what you said it's still 30 seconds but in the bigger picture I'm sure it was within the tolerance of the air ambulance . Flying is always a learning curve know matter how long you been doing it and it seems like to me you're always very willing to learn,
Absolutely Gary - the fact it's a continuous learning curve is part of the enjoyment of it. It's great to be able to share parts of that decision making here too and gather other people's thoughts too. Thanks for watching.
on your shoulder at 06:57 my home nice flying
Ah good spot!
No issues there Rory. They're big boys, they would have asked if they needed to go first. They were prepared to lift off as soon as you were clear, I think if you had gone around it would probably have put them off their stride.
Tim Rodgers cheers Tim. I think what you’ve said seems to be the general consensus here which is good
I think you did exactly what was required. From a situational awareness perspective, the chopper announced "not ready" and ATC gave you precedence. Had there been an emergency, ATC would have given you some direction to go around.
MH30R I hear what you’re saying but they can’t really do that at Welshpool as they are air ground only but I’m sure either them or the helimed pilot could have made it clear they needed to go first. Thanks for watching!
The triangle of people involved and anybody on the sidelines knew EXACTLY what was going to happen. If anybody had any reservations, I'd hope that good airmanship and professionalism would have made them voice their unhappyness at a developing situation. The helimed probably has some 2,500+ under their belt and would say if he/she wasn't happy. I'm not PPL or anything, but I think you made the right decision. Make a plan, and stick to it! Otherwise, it would be the old story of all the holes in the Swiss Cheese aligning... Good on you posting it, for the value of learning good airmanship...
Thanks very much for sharing your thoughts Paul.
Would have done exactly the same Rory. You gave them your position, they were OK with that and expected it. No harm done and all safe so jobs a goodun. Wouldnt worry about being 30 secs out on you estimate.
Cheers David.
Hi Rory,
Brave of you to post - good learning experience.
My armchair two pence worth. All was going well until the long final call. BUT, (and I'm not sure of Welshpool's status), it might have been helpful if Welshpool, after you stated your intentions for a straight in, had asked you to call at 4nm and/or 2nm. Other airfields often do. They sort of did.
I agree with what you say - I'm not being sycophantic BTW - and when committed (300' & short final), you got down and out of the way. The helimed and tower at least knew where you were (on the ground and clearing the runway). You didn't take up airspace and cause extra workload by being traffic that needed keeping an eye on.
You got your timing/distance slightly wrong by 30 or so seconds? But you were still there roughy on time. The tower thought that would, initially, at 1 mins 30 seconds, be okay and the helimed wasn't quite ready. So all in all you did nothing 'wrong' also the other two parties are the experts, you're a hobby microlight pilot. It's good to reassess and debrief these things, but I think that you're being overly hard and critical upon yourself. The thing I'd question is the racing to catch up aspect, the Eurostar can take it, but you put yourself under extra workload/pressure.
Re the helimed mission? I doubt if you had any impact, just imagine if you had tried a go around, whether you got that right or wrong, you could have taken up a LOT more of their time. You all kept safe. As you know from a helo POV, it is usual/helpful, for a helo, to use runways and taxiways, BUT, professional helo pilots do have other options and he was easily able to go around you. He wouldn't take unnecessary risks and the other two parties wouldn't expect you to either, regardless of how critical the 'patient' was/is.
Great comment thanks Muso - much appreciated. I was uneasy about it at the time but I think now that I'm training for a professional licence it's altered my perspective again.
Glad to see you back In the fixed wing Rory! Also I would have done the same. Cheers
Flying Scotsman ha ha - cheers. It was a fun flight. I hope you are enjoying the heli stuff too though.
Rory On Air , we are in NZ South Island at the moment on holiday so I hired a DA40 and took my wife for a flight around Queenstown and the mountain but the highlight was taking a H500 up to Franz Joseph Glacier and landing on the top, grate little helicopter!
Flying Scotsman oh what a way to make me jealous! I love the H500 - amazing looking aircraft. I hope you have a fabulous time there - I loved my honeymoon in NZ.
I recall a piece of road crossing advice on my first trip to India that may be relevant - keep moving steadily and in the same direction, if you dodge around you're more likely to be hit. Once you were below circuit height, any deviation could have caused more issues than it solved. An orbit could have put you in conflict with a NORDO a/c, a go-around to the right of the runway would have put you over the heli, down the line of the runway would have made little or no difference compared to landing. As has already been said, the heli expressed no urgency, just wanted to know where you were for his own planning. If he had said he needed to lift urgently on his first call and you were still at or above circuit height, you could have switched to an overhead/cross wind join that would have kept you out of conflict until he had cleared out of the way, but if he had needed a few more minutes to be ready at that point, entering the circuit could have slowed him up more.
On balance, he used the radio to improve his situational awareness and your answers gave him what he needed (within reasonable tolerances). At no point did he ask you to deviate, so if you had decided to change your actions, you would have been likely to cause more confusion. You did everything you could to expedite your stated intentions - don't think it's reasonable to ask for more. Job well done.
Excellent analysis Jonathan, thanks for taking the time to leave a comment. All the best.
You made right decision as your the inbound aircraft. Like you said, he wasn't ready to depart and you was on finals. He was ready to depart when you was committed to landing. As you are a training helicopter pilot, you know you can take off from grass areas, so you wasn't holding up his departure. Keep the videos coming Rory and hope all is going well on your ATPL(H) course. Happy flying 😀
Thanks very much Richard. The helicopter training is going well thanks. I'd love to get my hands (and feet) on a EC135 one day.
I have been watching the videos from helix about the new Bell 505. That sounds and looks great. Also been looking at the konner k2 that has a turbine engine and has a hybrid system if you loose the engine or require extra power.
@@richardsumerfield4923 Yeah the Bell 505 looks like a very interesting aircraft right enough.
Wish I could fly helicopters,. I ly them on flight simulator but wish I could for real. Love a trial lesson in the Cabri G2 or even go on that pilot selection day at Leicester
@@richardsumerfield4923 Well you should definitely book a trial less. I might well have an FI rating my next summer so I could take you.
The only concern I see is depending on how close the helicopter got is the effect of rotor wash on a small aircraft like an EV-97.
Laurence Thornber yeah, fair question. It was well away from us as it departed and we were almost at a complete stop on the runway.
Rory hello. I would have done the same as you. The other pilot wasn't ready to go so you had the option.
Cheers Gary.
Hi Rory, really interested in this video. Personally, your decision was the right decision, Everybody knew where you were, you avoided any confliction. It would be great if you or the @flyingreporter could do an input from an Emergency Service perspective. Food for thought?
Thanks Liam, I'd love to do an interview with a Helimed pilot and get a better understanding of their challenges and what GA pilots can do to help.
Hi Rory, if the MEDIVAC Pilot was in a hurry, he would have asked you to hold, having filmed one preparing and taking off, the Air Crew have an inordinate amount of situational awareness. There are some words by Alan Watts on "Choice" on UA-cam, don't beat yourself up :) Maybe find the closest Air Rescue Unit and have them on your channel for a chat? Thanks also for your honesty, Aviation is the one enterprise where people are encouraged to talk openly about their craft, take care and happy flying, regards Chris Australia
Thanks very much Chris - I appreciate your input. I'd love to do an interview with a HEMS unit for this channel at some stage. I'll have to see if that can be arranged. All the best from the UK.
I think what you did was fine Rory
Flying Rasa thank you. 👍
Welshpool, flew past it thinking what a place to get into if the weather is bad. Next day the owner of the airfield crashed trying to land there.
That's not good at all.
Hi Rory, you made a positive decision and you when for it and thats just fine, both the radio operator and the air med knew your plan and where your were, this may of been the safer option don't forget they are flying a helicopter and are far more maneuverable then you, I'm sure they were just fine with your decision.
Great to see your video too.
Carter
Helicopter pilot.
Sarah Carter thanks very much for your input Sarah, it’s much appreciated. I see you’re flying a Schweitzer there, I’ve not had a go in one of those but I guess it’s reasonably similar to the Cabri or R22? Cheers, Rory
Maybe the Schweizer is slightly closer to the Cabri then the R22 due to the rotor head but it is lot if Fun and worth a try one day.
Good video, thanks for sharing. My thoughts...you’re absolutely right to ask the question, but I’m not sure I’d have done anything differently (once a decision to perform a straight in approach had been made and you were inside the ATZ)...on balance I think the course of action you took was probably the least inconvenient for the heli. When he called ready (moments after your DH) he indicated that he was ready to go for a departure to the south. If you had gone around (along the runway axis I.e. in a southerly direction) he would likely be looking for you to maintain visual sep as he climbs out departs the circuit, adding to his workload. With you landing at least he knows you’re no factor and there’s no other traffic to affect his departure.
What could have been done differently? I guess when flying into places where HEMS operate a standard overhead join may be better. Not sure it completely solves the problem because of the short amount of time it takes for the heli to start and lift (less than the time it takes to join, descend into the circuit and land) I.e. events may still conspire that put you with a similar decision, but you’d probably (though not necessarily) have a few more options (modifying circuit to enable the heli to depart ahead).
Great job on the videos Rory.
Great comment, thank you. That's a good suggestion about overhead joins at HEMS bases but I agree with you, I could have ended up in almost the same situation after flying a circuit so it's not completely foolproof. I think for me I should have elected to fly a circuit as soon as the helicopter was mentioned by the A/G. I was amazed how fast the helicopter went from 'starting up' to 'ready to go'. It takes about 8 minutes for me in the Cabri - it was about 2 minutes for the helimed - rapid! I'm delighted you are enjoying the videos.
Rory On Air ....yeah but you’ve got some extra (and very important) checklist items that add time...Cameras - ON, Tunnocks Tea Cakes - CHECK....👍🏻
@@CR4ZYHOR5E ha ha ha - no tea cakes on final - sterile cockpit. ;)
I would have done the same as you. You had good comms with the ground and the heli crew. They are used to the GA acft landing when the are turning and they would have asked you politely to get out the way, please. I don't believe there was any harm done.
Kestrel 506 excellent stuff, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Hind sight is always VFR. I like to do an overhead join and dislike straight in, as overhead always gives me the chance to have a look for the unexpected, in this case it would allow me to carry out a hold in a suitable area (but as I have alreadt said hind sight is always VFR). Your decisions were not bad, as you used the information you had available at the time, with the plan you made early. My question to you is why plan a straingt in rather than fly a circuit (it only cost you a little fuel and we fly for fun so you get an extra few mins in the air and the chance to verify airfield information)? It the cloud base is low, or weather catching you out, then that might be different.
Fair point, thank you. I think the answer to why I decided to fly in a straight-in was because Barton, where I was based is usually busy and straight in approaches are often not possible as a result. As I'm keen to be competent at all kinds of different join procedures (so I can use them when needed due to cloud etc) so I like to do something different when I can. It made sense given how quiet Welshpool was along with our arrival direction.
@@RoryOnAir Yes that is a good reason to practice a straight in and a good time to do it, some airfield even request reduced pattern flying due to noise. Either way you did what you did based on the information you had at the time and you have learnt the lesson (as have we all, due to you putting the video up) that if there is a Heli Med prepairing to take off to change our plan to find a safe place to hold and let it go. It is no good beating yourself up over a safe decision that cause a small delay, if you had changed your mind they probably still would have delayed to confirm what you were doing, especially late on finals. The only thing you did wrong, which you know know is the "Long Final" call, I would have to go back to my 70's training notes but I recall that there was back then a distance and time to field for slow aircraft (but I can not remember what the spec was, which is not current today anyway).
Flying Kub excellent stuff. This has certainly been of benefit to me and I hope it will for others too. 👍
Interesting points. The only times my mate has done, does a straight in or downwind joint are 1) Iffy weather/weather closing in 2) The airfield is out of hours AND deserted. Of course to be sure of the latter one really needs to join overhead as another aircraft might not be using RT. Most of the time it's overhead joins, which are easier at one's home base and no always as easy when approaching an away airfield at an awkward angle. I still think you did okay Rory, you'll just play it differently next time. And as you say, straight in approaches are often a rarity at some airfields.
@@musoseven8218 If I haven't been somewhere before I always try and do an overhead join but I had been to Welshpool on at least one previous occasion. I agree they are a safe way to operate for sure. Cheers
I think you probably added a very short time to the helly med so don’t knock your self you made the right decision to land as they did say they wasn’t ready yet , your human and had to make decisions at the time . Because your thinking it over shows you care and don’t forget you have to consider your safty if you made a late go around. You did good
Donna Adams thanks very much for your comment Donna. 👍
Hi Rory, good one for discussion but imho you shouldn't agonise over this particular decision. Yes, the long final/entering the ATZ thing wasn't technically correct and your landing estimate was 30s out but your flight profile was exactly as you said it was going to be, straight-in to land and any deviation from that would have introduced a much greater level of uncertainty for everyone. The helimed pilot would have based his decision making on the fact that you were going to land from the approach. Your decision making process as you explained it here was sound.
Thanks very much for your considered review of this situation. Cheers, Rory.
I think you’ve over-analysed this situation. The helimed Pilot probably only wanted to know where you were so he can plan around you. If I’d been in the same situation I’d have continued the approach as well, but at the aircraft’s normal approach speed. Another option was to put in an orbit or break off the approach without overflying the runway.
They said crack on, you did! They knew what was best. Doing anything else would have confused the situation.
Thanks very much for your comment Jack.
Well, my two cents; you could debate the range of a long final, but you did mention you entered the ATZ, so everyone could know where you were at the moment. You ran out of options pretty quickly, so improvising would've been a bad choice. Then the heli would've been deployed to your rescue. I probably would've done the same...
ForFunFlyer it was on my mind that had I messed up a late go around and hit those wires then the heli would have likely been re deployed to me. A tricky judgement call.
@@RoryOnAir Yes, I can imagine. But when the heli crew heard you at the ATZ boundry, they weren't ready, right? Half to one minute later they were, but at that point you ran out of safe options. I think it's just a matter of coincidence? Don't beat yourself up about this. These things happen, you didn't do it on purpose...
@@ForFunFlyer No beating happening here thanks Jolmer, but good to review it I think.
@@RoryOnAir Oh, for sure! It's always good to debrief and learn, even if you chose to do the right thing. Thanks for sharing! 👍🏻
I think we talk about 30 seconds max that the helicopter could have left earlier. probably less. you could have offered to do a circle to the right before reaching the regular final to give him time. but no worries you did not do anything wrong. I is a good thing though to reflect the situation
Yes, an orbit on final in this case might have been an option. A bit non standard but certainly worth considering. Cheers
I would’ve done the same as you, because in an emergency and the helimed had to take off quickly the helimed would say request priority takeoff, then you would have to hold or go around. It’s hard to judge as I wasn’t there, and watching a video doesn’t really show justice.
They can't actually tell me what to do here as it's an uncontrolled airfield, but they could have told me they needed to get away immediately, that's true.
Rory On Air oh I thought it was controlled.
EPSC Productions no, it’s AG
The timing was just something you could not predict fully and for my money, you did what you should have and was the most sensible and predictable by the Helimed crew. (This is a comment from a Non-Pilot BTW but with a lot of time in the air with other people over the years.) The only other thing I can imagine would be to have broken off the approach as soon as the Helimed call came and opt for an orbit and hold somewhere until they departed...? Just a thought.
Thanks Lawrence, yes it seems most people agree that what I did wasn't too bad given the circumstances. I've even heard that from a Welshpool based HEMS pilot who kindly emailed to say I didn't do anything wrong so I guess that's good. Now that I'm flying helicopters for a commercial licence, I think I am more aware and cautious than I was even back then. Cheers.
@@RoryOnAir Thanks for the reply Rory. I am sure you did nothing wrong, it was just a series of events and timings which made it very hard to call. I sincerely hope that the CPLH course continues successfully and you have a ball! (I am not even remotely envious...hate aviation.....especially helicopters.....always have.....total waste of time......who in their right mind....?)
@@lawrencemartin1113 ha ha ha - I am very lucky to be doing what I’m doing. I’ll do my best to keep everyone up to date on here. 👍
No issue - just one of those awkward timing situations. He was happy with your "ABOUT a minute and a half" you took 30 seconds longer. If was so critical either the helimed pilot or the controller could have told you to stay away.
Thanks very much for watching and for your comment.
They can request, they cannot “tell you to stay away”. I fly at Tatenhill and have this often with our hems guys. They are brilliant, and they are usually very good at timing and fitting in with whats going on. Its when you try and be helpful and make a last minute change, thats when it messes with their plan and causes a delay. Just carry on as normal, if they need to go, they will go or ask for coordinating action
@@christopherwilson6527 Poor choice of words on my part.
Heli pilot asked you how far you were away and you gave him a time scale to the best of your ability. He told you to continue and you did. I suspect he planned his departure knowing you would be on the ground.. dont see how a go around would have helped really. I think it worked out just fine. Considering if he went before you you then had wake turbulence to consider. I think the right call was made.
You're the second person to mention wake turbulence which is an excellent point. Thank you.
You did exactly what I would have done. Why introduce more uncertainty when both you and the helmed are under high workload?
Cheers Ben, nice of you to see it my way.
Rory, I am a fixed wing and rotary pilot my view is that you are overthinking this a bit. If the helo was in a rush, then he has options to depart in parallel or a helicopter departure. The best thing for you was to continue ur approach in a predictable manner and communicate. A go around would have caused them more grief as you would then still be in the circuit and an additional consideration for them - prob not a biggy either, but on the ground you are out of the way. Best thing is to communicate and communicate some more. :)
John Blumenthal thanks very much for sharing your thoughts here John. You seem to share an opinion with the majority here. Communication, as they say, is key!
Rory On Air Rory, I was watching some of ur other posts and only just realized that you are also a rotary guy - nice work! Would like to aloft the G2 - they need a 4 seat + luggage version :)
John Blumenthal ah good stuff. Yes, a 4 seat version to rival the R44 would be good.
Hi Rory, even if you had made the decision to go around slightly earlier surely you would still have had to climb out on runway heading ? That might have still caused the Helimed Pilot to modify his departure wouldn’t it?
Cliff Hughes Media yeah I think you’re right Cliff, I would have been in the way one way or the other. At least what I did was predictable which appears from the feedback I’ve had to have been helpful.
You did fine mate. It would never of made a difference at the other end for the HEMS crew.
That’s good, they said much the same. 👍
@@RoryOnAir Yeah people think they jump in and want to zip out as fast as they can, when it's actually the opposite. You have to be sure and take your time, to and from a scene, with or without a patient. It's not worth rushing and forgetting something and then something else, being preoccupied etc. I hope you follow your dream Cory, SAR flying is up there with some of the best and rewarding chopper flying you can do.
@@MrThuggery I really really hope to get on a SAR crew at some stage in my career.
I personally agree that the go around doesn't seem to help much. Going straight, left or right would be in the way potentially. Landing was in the way almost a minute beyond their expectation. Thinking of them as a normal ambulance with blue lights, would the most helpful have been to effectively 'stop'? i.e. Declare you'll orbit at the ATZ border until they're gone? I don't know, just speculative. You'd have to ask them :)
Yeah interesting way to look at it to compare it to a road based situation. Thanks for watching.
@@RoryOnAir thank you for posting! Don't be afraid to post your uncertainties or mistakes as we'll all learn from it :)
@@smsfrancis Well it does seem that people enjoy reviewing things that didn't go perfectly during my flights so I'm happy to share ones that I think could be helpful and interesting, cheers.
could offer to do a right hand orbit as there was no other traffic
Mike Ryan yeah, an orbit might well have been a good idea. Thanks for watching.
@@RoryOnAir great video
Mike Ryan thanks very much.
I think it’s down to the airfield mixing commercial and GA traffic. Maybe they should have an SOP who has priority. Welshpool isn’t the easiest to go around, high ground to your left. I wouldn’t beat yourself up, maybe calling long final didn’t help but I’m sure the helicopter would have made up the speed.
Yes, the long final call was undoubtedly confusing and I'm glad I've since got that terminology squared away in my own head.
If heli had gone first what about wake turbulence? It hasn't been mentioned.
Yes, very good point Chris. I guess by the time I had gone around and completed a circuit that would have dissipated sufficiently.
I’m in welshpool
I think you probably did the right thing
Cheers. :)
Do you have contacts at the airfield that could get you in touch with the air ambulance pilot? It would be good to get their opinion on the matter and I’m sure would make you feel more at ease if they felt you did the right thing. For what it’s worth, I would have done the same. BTW, About 20 years ago I was a student pilot in a PA28 and I didn’t realise you could fly ‘straight in’ as I was always told you had to join the circuit? Not sure if that option has always been there or I was just never told that, more to do with good practice? Cheers, Rob
Cheers Rob. I might try and get in touch but I suspect they have better things to do than chew over the fat with me. I think straight in has always been an option but overhead joins (at airfields that don't say otherwise) are a good idea as some of the other commenters have said.
Aviation makes food more expensive... and flying always makes me hungry !!!
... and if you ever find yourself landing at EGPT, you really must treat yourself to a fairly reasonably-priced hotdog and chips at the Touchdown Cafe. Nom nom nom nom nom...!!!
Thanks for the tip!
Rory On Air - No... Don’t eat just the tip... Eat the whole thing !
;)
I think you are bashing yourself up Rory with no justification . What you did in my opinion was the safest option , and safety should be your main concern . A go around and turn to the left could have conflicted with any downwind traffic and a turn to the right onto the dead side may well have caused problems for the helimed . The helimed knew of your intention and location and was happy with that . If you hadn’t questioned your procedure it would be more of a worry . All the best and safe flying .
Thanks very much David. It was a fine balance I think, which often makes decisions harder, like a partial engine failure as opposed to a complete one. Thanks for your comment.
@@cylindrical_1058 Nice one guys, all very helpful reflection, thank you.
Hi Rory. I can't help but notice that Stuart is a 'larger gentleman'. As a somewhat portly chap myself I was wondering what sort of weight limits exist for EV97s and C42s? My gravitational issues have never caused issues on FSX but might in real life. I guess runway length is an important factor?
Good question Garry. Legally the microlight has a max takeoff weight of 450kg although this is going to be increased soon. You therefore need to take less fuel to remain legal. Usually that weight limit in issue long before runway length comes into play but yes, you're right. More mass to get airborne means a longer takeoff run required.
@@RoryOnAir Thanks Rory, great answer. I'll get my calculator out! Did you ask Stuart his weight and fuel up accordingly?
MegaGarryM 👍👍
Not being a pilot and in that situation, I'm not sure what i would have done. Its one of those decisions you make at the time it happens. Its the old 'if only I chosen those lottery numbers' situations! Another question - How do aircraft registrations work? I understand the first G, but can you choose your own registration if its not already issued? I ask, because some planes seem to have registrations that mean something to the owner.
Thanks for your comment. Yeah you can get a personalised registration, a bit like a car plate but I'm not sure how you'd go about it to be honest. This aircraft was assigned G-CDOA but assuming it wasn't being used by someone else I guess I could buy G-RORY for instance.
@@RoryOnAir Thanks for your reply - I wonder if you could reserve the RORY reg (put it on retention like a car) for when you do buy your own aircraft? Always enjoy your videos.. :-) Just checked and G-RORY looks like its on a scrap 1958yr plane, and some of the photos of it flying (some years ago) were at Manchester Barton which is a coincidence!
@@kay110 Sounds like a plan to me. I'm delighted you enjoy the videos, thank you.
now i am not a pilot or anything like that and have no idea ... That said ... We talking about seconds here. and it did not sound like he was in a super haste even though me might be on a jobb... But it was only like what ?30 extra seconds you used ?
I wonder if it was ok for him to wait a few second and have 1 person less in the air so close making it safer for both you and him and less traffic so close to watch out for ?
Hence i wonder ... was it safer the way you did it in the end for you and the heli ?
Thanks for watching. Is you'll see from the other comments and responses, I think in the end what I did probably was the most sensible option.
The Cat A callsign doesn’t technically afford Helimed traffic priority outside of controlled airspace, and I don’t think knowledge of flight priorities is part of the PPL syllabus (obviously at Barton people will be aware because we have two air ambulances based). Given this, Cat A traffic should still afford landing traffic priority as per rules of the air at uncontrolled airfields. Additionally the AGCS operator shouldn’t really have offered the opinion that you would have ‘fitted in nicely’ - as he later mentioned he didn’t have a full view of the runway. It would have been better to simply have advised you of the traffic situation and let you make a decision. Far better at the latter stages of the approach (once passed your personal or published decision height), to land then to risk a rushed go-around - Nothing wring at all in landing. (By the way - very strange hearing my own voice doing Barton Information ! ;-) )
Hi Steve, yes there you are doing the FISO thing! Alpha / Echo flights were definitely covered by David W on my RT course but I don't know if they are on all courses. Thanks for your input. Cheers, Rory
Don't over-think it. You've done the flying the plane version of balls'ing up a radio call. It's done. Move on.
...and the main thing is you're aware of what your options were and had that mental picture. Nice work.
Thanks Mark. Good to review things and of course part of the point of this channel is to provide entertainment but I take your point.
Nice to see you flying a microlight - no interest in the helis
kkiwi54 fair enough. I’m glad you enjoyed the microlight video.
I'm sure by british gentleman standards it's a great offense and the lordship will take it under advisement but foregoing that I think you are more worried about being an inconvenience than actually having done something wrong. Had he been in an actual hurry he could and should simply have requested priority and you could another time ease your conscience by offering priority. You might have been able to accommodate by going close to stall speed, that would double your time there. Good visual contact. I don't know what good practice minimum distance to a helicopter is but I think it would be plenty if he was ready to go. In short, it's a non issue.
Thanks for the comment Dan.
Dont overthink this whole thing. I feel you’re over analysing what happened. HEMS guys will tell you if they need to lift but you were on finals and they said they weren’t ready. I would have done same as you and that would be the end of it. As you said you would go around if they were ready. They weren’t ready at the time you were on finals and ready to land. I didn’t see anything I’d be concerned about at all. 👍
Excellent, thanks Mike.
I think you did fine, the HEMS pilot is an absolute pro and was aware of you inbound, I'm sure he accounted for you in his departure. Just re-listened to your de-brief, maybe you should drop the Welsh Air Ambulance a line, I'm sure the pilot would be happy to give his opinion. You could probably get hold of them via here www.walesairambulance.com/contact
Thanks Dave, I've had some feedback from someone in the biz via facebook and they said I did the right thing as the key for them is knowing where we are and us GA pilots being predictable, which I was by sticking to my stated plan.
You shouldn't loose too much sleep over it. If your actions had been detrimental to the Air Ambulance mission I'd have thought you'd have been told by now. As it is you are self-aware enough to worry and the fact you care means you want to do better and will. That attitude is surely an asset to any pilot. I'm in no position to tell you what you should have done.
Thanks very much Robert. It has played on my mind and I will do things differently next time but the comments here have made me realise what I did wasn't as bad as I originally thought. All very helpful!
Rory, you did nothing wrong except accelerating down finals. A few seconds departure delay will make very little difference to the outcome for the casualty that the Helimed was attending.
Thanks Gordon. Yes, I was quick on final but I had plenty of runway to let that bleed off once I was over the hedge. Thanks for watching.
Rory On Air seduced by a 1000m of tarmac. I bet you would have been less keen on speeding up at Barton.
Rory, also, you are no longer a GA pilot but a trainee professional with much more knowledge and skill leading to a different perspective of past events. If you went back through all your videos from your early flying adventures you might just cringe. The past is a far away land.
@@gordonbruce2416 You're absolutely right about that! Some of my early flying is pretty bad by new commercial standards but as you say, that's all part of the process.
There is a lot of useful and encouraging comments here and they are all positive which is very unusual for youtube and social media in general, so I feel duty bound to say that you shouldn't be in the sky and you are a danger to yourself and everyone within 100nm around you. Who do you think you are?
However, the helimed knew you couldn't be on long final AND in the ATZ, which is I guess, why he asked, case closed for me.
Ha ha ha - thanks for playing the 'troll role' Dusty. :)
rory i am only a wanna be never going to be pilot because of medical but in my view you did the only thing left to do. you where just passed the point where you could have made a call other then you did with out complicating things for the heli and your self
Cheers, thanks for watching too. 👍
I'm still only a student. Don't think you did anything wrong. They'd already said they'd go after you, changing your plan (and therefore theirs) for the sake of 30 seconds might cause more confusion and workload for everyone
Cheers Ben. I hope your training is going well. Thanks for watching.
@@RoryOnAir weather at the start of the year and then lockdown put the brakes on for a good 6 months. But I've just recently got back to training in the Eurostar again and still loving it!
@@bencoder Well I'm glad you're back at it. The Eurostar is a mighty machine!
I can't really see what you did wrong, I think you are way over analysing the situation, the long final call was a bit iffy but no harm done. Good video btw....
Brian McCann thanks very much Brian. I’m glad you enjoyed it.
Am no expert but it seems helemed knew what he was doing and so did you
Yeah, I think so. Thanks for watching.
Rory if you can find a way of sending me an email address I will send you a photo that will definitely clear any doubts in your mind. I'm not Tech savvy enough.
Kestrel 506 roryonair (at) gmail.com
You didn't find yourself in trouble with your landing, the air ambulance was fine neither of you seemed to have to take evasive action, you were not reported everyone stayed safe, everyone knew what the other was doing.
Looking back as you have and questioning your decisions is learning and the heli calling alpha, then taking an earlier decision to go deadside or call an orbit, to take away all the options and workload going thru your head then and now away. As you say to be over cautious is preferarable to being in a situation that has obviously caused you some self inflicted grief.
Mikey's wings across the sky thanks for your comment. It’s all been a good learning experience.
There not much room in there
Yes, It's quite compact!
WhAT HAve U BEeN DrinKING IN tHe PlANe For.........
Ha ha ha - I knew there would be one...
Over thinking leads to accidents.
David Webb I’m not convinced this logic follows David but thanks for watching.
Rory On Air The medivac pilot said its okay. End of. He has far more flexibility than you do. Soon as you are out of his way, he goes. Hes not waiting for you to clear the runway. Stop worrying about what others are thinking and fly your plane.
@@davidwebb4904 I'm not worried about what others think, and I did concentrate on flying the plane at the time, which is why I think it's been helpful for me to review the decisions afterwards here. It's as a result of this I've learned from Helimed pilots that continuing with my stated plan was the best thing I could have done.
Stu..... Ledge
Gareth White yeah we had a right good laugh. 👍
What was the problem? You told them where you were, you gave a reasonable estimate and flew a sensible approach. The most important thing was they knew you were there. If they wanted you to do something different they would have told you. You flew a normal approach and behaved as expected. Criticism? Dump the 300 foot bollocks as soon as you can. You can go around from 1,000’ down to the runway. There is NO decision height but there is a committal point. That is the point where you no longer have enough room for a go-around. As for a go around, again you are inventing problems that don’t exist. If you do a go-round into the current circuit this is normal. You keep your eyes open and fit in with any other traffic that exists. Also, while I’m here you can dump your thinking on shallow turns. Fly at the proper speed, fly a balanced turn with the ball in the middle and do a proper turn. That is one off the reasons you approach at 1.3 Vs. You will not stall, spin or flick doing do so.
Thanks very much for your feedback Trevor - lots to take onboard. Cheers, Rory