Grey sandstone patio time lapse. (method in description)
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- The patio area was excavated so the new patio started at regulation 150mm below damp proof course (door cill level). As the patio fell toward the house an aco drain was installed along the house to take the water run off to a soak away. NOTE the aco's were not connected to the faul drain in the middle. A break in the acos was necessary where the sink out pipe connected to the faul drain. The aco's have a connecting pipe which continues the water on to the corner of the building where they are connected to the grey water (rain water soak away) drain (where the down pipe comes down from the roof). Don't connect rain water to faul drains.
There is a 100mm mot type 1 on a fabric membrane subbase which is compact with a wacker plate. The slabs are bedded on a 5:1 sharp sand : cement mix with a small amount of feb additive. A priming slurry is applied to the back of the slabs to increase adhesion and reduce raising moisture in the slabs in the future. An sbr and cement mix can be made as a primer as long as its mixed well and is of thick consistency.
The laying pattern supplied with the slabs is thrown in the bin where it belongs and a random formula is used as follows: NO CROSS JOINTS (4 corners of slabs meeting). T joints only. No long lines - if more than 3 slabs in a straight line try to break it with a T joint. The best way to achieve this pattern is start in one corner and work your way out diagonally. Zig zaging a diagonal line of the two larger sized slabs and then zig zaging a line of the two smaller sizes. If you go straight along the house you end up with long lines. Try to use up the smaller ones near the end so you have larger slabs left. If you need smaller ones at the end they can be cut down but if you run out of large ones you can't make any. A 1:80 fall is directing water to the aco drains. The patio is dead level from side to side. Pointing is a traditional 1:3 cement:soft sand mix with some black feb tone to make it grey.
The retainer is made from pressure treated sleepers backed with damp proof membrane to prevent soil erosion. The steps are made from brick and sandstone as wooden steps tend to wear over time and become slippy.
The batton panels are hand made from planed soft wood and treated to look like cedar as is the retainer seats after being lightly sanded.
Materials - grey Indian sandstone, Nordic timber sleepers and pressure treated soft wood painted in cuprinol country ceder.
Making use of wasted space by installing a new patio and seating area.
About 2 weeks to complete for 2 people. A micro digger was used for the dig out and waste away in 1 load in an 8 wheel grab lorry.
Landscaping by Sam Keep and Nathan stone
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What a beautiful make over to the backyard!!!! Wow.
Thank you, great to hear 👍
I do this eveyday and to me looks very good , beautiful job 👌👍👍
Thanks very much! Keep up the good work 👍
Expertly laid - am impressed! Great job guys :)
We had a real heat wave during that little job . . theres always something. Thanks for the comment!
@@HowWeLandscape I know that one well! Seriously impressed with your "show reel" - and not just for the dance moves alone ;) Do keep in touch, I work all over the country so will be in your neck of the woods at some point and might need some help! Take care guys and keep at it, it's sterling work :)
@@WildYourGardenWithJoelAshton Thanks! That means a lot . . yeah we're always knee deep in mud in North herts if your ever about. I doubt the dance moves will be in the final cut, still a few videos to make. Your wildlife ponds are great!
@@HowWeLandscape I'm due there later this week - if the weather holds! It takes a good while with the videos, doesn't it? Keep going though - and hey, maybe you could do a separate dance video ;) Thanks ever so much re the ponds, lots lined up but just waiting on the right weather - do keep in touch - send me an email at hazelwoodlandscapes@hotmail.com when you get a chance - take care guys - Joel
Looks fantastic guys 😁
Thanks, very kind 👍
Tidy job, though not sure your installation of the drainage channel was to spec.
ACO recommend a continuous concrete bed of at least 50mm under their A15 channels, not dot & dab mortar.
Thanks. Yeah we fill it all in with mortar and haunch all the way along once its set in place. We do the acos before all the mot is brought in so plenty of space under to fill it. Nothing worse than gully drains undulating and holding water where someone's gone along smashing them down, especially the plastic ones.
Can you explain this part - why cant you run into the down pipe drainage? "The aco's have a connecting pipe which continues the water on to the corner of the building where they are connected to the grey water (rain water soak away) drain (where the down pipe comes down from the roof). Don't connect rain water to faul drains.
". Thanks!
Hi thanks for the interest and thats a good question!
House usually have two separate drain systems.. Toxic water from the house/sink/toilet know as foul or sewer. This goes off into utility drains to be cleaned by the water plants.
Then there's rain water from the roof/patio etc. Known as grey, storm or surface water. This runs down a pipe back into the garden where it drains naturally into the soil (through a soak away)
Some houses pre 1970 have a combined system but generally they should be separate. The water board don't want the extra water from patios going down their drains and mixing with sewage as its more work for them to clean it. Also if everyone ran patio/driveway water down foul drains then its bad for the environment as the ground becomes dry from not getting the rain water. Ideally the patio would run away from the house and run onto a lawn or flowerbed to soak into the garden. But if it runs back to the house, to an acco then it should have a soak away in the garden to let it drain.
The term SUDS is more for driveways but if you want to learn more about the drains look up 'sustainable urban drainage systems (suds)'.
Lovely job! I'm about to lay a slate tile patio. I was wondering why I never see people use a notched trowel on the mortar. Is there a reason why people don't do this outside?
Hi, good question.. A notched trowel gives a 10mm bed which isn't thick enough for patios unless it has a concrete base. So some porcelain is stuck down with tile adhesive using a notched trowel.
Normally a thincker bed of sand and cement is used. People do sometimes use a plasterers float/trowel to get a nice flat full bed of mortar for the slab to go on.
If your laying slate make sure you use a primer as slate isn't very porous a might not stick. Look up 'slurry primer', I'm sure there's videos on it.
hey mate howrya
I run my own landscaping business in Melbourne, Au ,
just curious, how much did all this cost in the end?
materials? labour? vs total overall?
2 x blokes
1 x excavator
how many days?
I'd just love to know how you go about pricing something of this scale and quality?
I mean i can see the time you take and the work you put in. you care. i like that. i care too.
How do you pitch a price to your customers so that you're still making money, paying the boys, feeding the kids etc
but without scaring your customers off with the reality of what things cost. How do you market yourself without undercutting yourself espiecally considering most of todays advertising is through the internet and most consumers rely on reviews.
this More concerns a young and upcomming business, which may not yet have an established clientele.
that being said
I really do admire your work.
keep it up boys
Thanks for the good feedback!! :)
I don't comment on cost but in terms of pricing its down to experience to judge how long each section would take and then adding material costs. I was employed for 10 years before i started up so the more site experience the better, but you soon work it out. Also working out a price by square meterage for various sections is a quicker way of doing it just making sure to add on variables like bad access etc.
I do all the work myself with one other skilled collogue because for me personally I like the hands on work and not the quoting, business side of it. Its also hard to motivate staff on long jobs turning up to the same muddy site everyday. Its hard to find good people and when they get good they leave and want to start up on their own. We just keep it very small with a circle of other tradesmen who recommend us. So building up a professional community is a main part of it for us, and personal recommendations are better than on line reviews. If a builder builds a big extension on a house and then recommends us to do the garden we'll defiantly get it. If we want a job we'll quote sensibly to get it and explain the costs. If we're not interested or too busy we'll tell them.
Other people have success doing hundreds of quotes and putting out top prices. They only need a few to come in to keep their teams busy and make good profit. Then they're dealing with the man management which is great for some and really works well for them. But for me: more quotes, more customers and more staff = more problems. So its just finding a balance of what size your company will work its best at. Even the best landscapers i know nearing retirement say everyday is a lesson!
To answer your question on profit on the really big jobs - truth is there isn't any. They overrun massively and there's constantly unpredicted costs and set backs and the finishing details are never ending. All our evenings and weekends are gone making up for it but its just part of the job and challenge . The majority of our 'bill paying' earnings come from small fences and patios etc which are straight forward so again never judge your earnings from one job as they can be hit or miss, but earnings balance out over the year. If your new to quoting don't price too many big jobs until you've built a few and seen if your on budget. But whatever happens Just keep going, learning and growing. Good luck.
Great advice
@@HowWeLandscape I have exactly the same setup and ideals as yourselves, big jobs can be very difficult to predict. We have done a huge job on and off through Covid and even though the clients are superb, the hassle of getting materials and a spate of very bad weather on a heavy clay site meant a lot of lost time. The extras that turn up with added problems such as complex drainage issues, materials unavailable, prices fluctuating wildley all add to the time on site. The project does look amazing, but not sure if i would want to go through it all again. Nice work and good advice from yourselves.
I know this is a contentious topic but do you ever lay onto an unbound sharp sand base only? ie. no cement?
I'm about to tackle a roughly 50 square metre paving project around our house using Talasey Classicstone 18mm slabs ranging from 290x290 to 900x600mm in size. I've read a lot of material on this so far and have definitely discounted spot or ring bedding but I'm a bit torn between unbound and bound bedding.
I like the idea of permeability of unbound bedding and pointing, and I don't mind having to re-lay the odd slab here and there in the coming years. I also like the fact that an unbound bed can be lifted more easily, for example to access soil waste and grey water pipes underneath if necessary. We don't have many ants in this area and the sub-grade is pretty solid. I'm laying onto an existing gravel path mostly which has been compacted by foot traffic for the last 15 years or so, so I was planning to just use some compacted MOT type 1 to fill any low spots and then a 50mm sharp sand or sharp sand & cement bed.
So, firstly am I crazy for considering an unbound bedding layer? And secondly, what would happen if I went with the unbound option? Would it just have settlement issues or would you expect the larger slabs to crack due to for example running over them with a loaded wheelbarrow? That is, I think, a valid concern with 18mm sandstone slabs because the unbound bedding won't provide as much support against localised loads.
Genuinely interested in your thoughts - I can easily buy some cement and hire a mixer if necessary. Thanks.
ps. Great job in the video - which is why I value your advice! :)
Its not something I would recommend. The issue with sand is it will move over time so the slabs would become uneven. If they are being pointed then the pointing would also fall apart. The issue with not putting a full layer of mot under the bed is that soil expands during winter as it absorbs water and then shinks back down over summer as it dries out. So having that under the bed would also affect the stability. If you look at the structure of a driveway it has compacted sand under the blocks but also a thick layer of mot to stop the sand from dispersing. So that style of laying could be copied if all the slabs were uniform and flat and could be layed on a screeded sand layer (which is how the Americans lay slabs) . But in either case the sub base of mot hardcore is quite important for longevity.
@@HowWeLandscape thanks for taking time to reply, much appreciated.
I take your point about the slabs becoming uneven on a sharp sand base but I think there is a difference between the expectations of a DIY’er compared to a home owner who hires a contractor to lay the slabs and then expects them to last 10+ years without maintenance. I don’t want to make work for myself but I don’t mind if I have to throw some sand under a slab and level it out now and again. Also, if I went with an unbound bed then I’d also go with flexible pointing either using kiln dried sand or a polymer based flexible grout.
Still undecided but I really appreciate your thoughts. Thanks again.
I just came across this video again a couple of years later and as a brief update, I did initially go with an unbound sharp sand bedding layer but this was only a temporary solution and I didn't bother pointing the joints with anything other than sand. We had a bunch of big DIY projects on the go at that time and just needed a patio of some description to tide us over.
Fast forward a couple of years and I am well into the process of lifting the slabs again, scooping up the clean 50mm sand layer from underneath and mixing it 5:1 with cement before laying the slabs back down again on that mortar bed. I excavated a few soft areas and added compacted MOT type 1 but most of the area was already heavily compacted as I said in my first post, and drained fairly well. I did add a french drain topped with decorative gravel along the edge of the patio away from the house where it meets my detached garage and this does a fantastic job of removing both subsurface water and run off. We've had some epic rainfall in the last few weeks and the drainage has made a massive difference.
I've hesitantly decided to go with Azpects EasyJoint for the pointing because I wanted something slightly permeable and although there are loads of people who say it's not a robust solution, it seems as if the key is to ensure the joints are deep enough and that the material is compacted thoroughly into those joints. We'll see how it lasts but is working well so far.
Looks brilliant! Should sandstone be treated after it is laid? We just installed a sandstone patio and need to know how to protect it
Hi there, sealing will definitely help keep it clean but standard rivern sandstone is still very durable without it. It will pick up stains initially when new but the sun and rain eventually disperses the stains (called weathering). Theres also lots of good detergent patio cleaners you can use on it once a year in spring (avoid acid bassed)
If its sawn sandstone (very smooth finish) then I would definitely recommend sealing it as the cutting process to make it flat leaves the stone very porous. Some 'breathable' sealers can be applied soon after the patio is laid but non permeable sealers are recommended to wait at least 6 months for the patio to dry and cure before being applied so check the instructions carefully to see what it recommends.
clean af
Beautiful, Just wondering what's the mix ratio of mortar? what did you brush back of the paving?
Hi, great to hear from you. We use a sharp sand to cement mix 5:1 with a tinny amount of feb. The stuff on the back isn't needed but would recommend its priming slurry available at builders merchants. In the video description (v) is all the info
@@HowWeLandscape Thank you very much.
Great video! Do you mind if I ask what timelapse camera you used?
Yeah sure today I'd recommend a gopro and Premier Pro editing software. However back then all these early videos were shot on an old phone. A galaxy s5. When I got a new one I used the old one to film all these videos. At the time gopro only had a 'fisheye' effect which I didnt like. So smart phone using 'hyperlapse' setting and a speed of x16, x32, or x64 depending on whats available on the phone. The software I used to edit all these videos on a computer is 'Movavi 15 video editor'. Available to download for about £30. Really easy to use. So very little cost to make videos like this 👍🏻
I have a question about laying the patio so I see you added the drainage so would the slabs need to fall towards the house to allow rain water travel down to the drainage or would you still lay the slabs fall away from the house?
Hi thanks for the comment. Yes on this project the patio falls back to the house so an acco was installed to collect the water run off. It also needs to be 150mm below damp proof course (door cill)
If the patio started 150mm below dpc and fell away from the house and onto a lawn it wouldn't need an acco at all.
Sometime if people raise the height of a patio nearer the dpc they add an acco along the house as a precaution even though the water runs away from the house. Theres lots of factors in raising the level of a patio, like the age and build of the walls which is why its better to keep it 150mm below
@@HowWeLandscape so what would you say for the fall would be for patio away from the house 1:80 or more than that?
Cracking work lads
Thank you
Hi what colour is the slabs please?
They are kandla grey sandstone (riven). Theres a porcelain version of kandla grey available these days as well.
Great work looks great what mix do you guys use I’ve been told as I was looking at having a good it should be a fairly dry mix but yours seemed more a mortar base
We use a workably wet 5:1 mix of sharp sand and cement and a touch of fed. People do lay on on semi dry but I find it too tedious raking it out and getting full contact. Recommend using a slurry primer too!!
Good❤
Thank you! I like your videos too
🏡 🎥👍
Do you use Black mortar dye in your pointing mix with standard yellow building sand? along with some plasticiser and waterproofer?
Hi there, yes its soft sand and cement 3:1 with added grey feb tone. Dry wisked with a drill then added water with a tiny amount of feb mix to make a semi dry pointing mix. We don't use waterproofer
@@HowWeLandscape got a link for the grey feb tone? Can only find black!
@@ktmman3 soz I meant the black feb tone is the one. Just use slightly less and it drys grey. Do a test batch and let it fully dry out to check the colour. Mix it really thoroughly so its not patchy!
How long before you can walk on the slabs,?
Hi, in summer when its warm can walk on them in about 48 hours and in winter would leave it 4 or 5 days at least
I bought sandstone pavers for my interior floors, they are 600x600 rough sawn and are stunning but then someone told me not to put them on my floors ? Can I do this ? I spent $9000 on these pavers 🥺😩
I've got no experience paving in side so just guessing but have seen it done many times on forums. The house I'm currently working on has reclaimed york stone all throughout the property and a previous house had honey limestone hallways. They were both sealed. Outside the stone would get soaked by the rain which would disperse stains so inside would probably need a really good quality sealer to prevent it picking up stains. Other than that probably a flexible adhesive to fix them if they are uniform thicknesses. Carry on, will look great 👍
what's the thickness of the sandstone you use ?
I think its calibrated to about 22mm these days. Seems to get thinner each year.
What are you painting on the back of the slabs? Lovely job looks great
Thanks for the comment 👍 Its a primer that helps stick the slab to the cement bed. Its not necessary for sandstone (meant for porcelain) but we use it on everything these days to add strength. You can buy slab primer slurry or make your own mixing SBR and cement. Defo recommend it.
Hei, how much of an opening do you have between each tile?
Hi there, for indian sandstone we aim for about 15mm give or take a few mm. All slabs differ though so best to lay a few out and see what works best
whats the blue stuff your rolling on the back of the paving slabs,,cheers
Hi there, its called priming slurry which increases the strength of bond. Its meant for porcelain but we use it on everything these days. You can buy it or mix cement and SBR to make your own.
@@HowWeLandscape thanks
Fence panel looks nice, are they just rough sawn tanalised battens?
Hi there, they were planned treated battens sold in packs from wickes although I don't think they do them anymore... because of the time they took to build - if I did it again i would buy 'forrest' double slatted panels ready made (also available in wickes)
Why not lay the pavers on a rigid base like concrete? Is crush rock fine to use as a base? Won't it move or lift up overtime.
Hi, thats a good question!
Thats mot type1 (crushed granite) which locks together with compaction. We use it for about 80% of patios and will occasionally use a concrete base if the ground has any issues or is really soft.
Concrete is big expense and its not good for the environment so mot is used as much as possible. Concrete also shrinks and cracks over time which can come through the paving so really it depends of the site conditions. Generally mot is the best if installed correctly.
@@HowWeLandscape thanks mate for the answer
Firstly looks excellent.. looking to do my own and could do with a bit of advice - I'll be laying on an existing solid concrete patio and part former grass that'll be mot'd to level off to same level of the existing concrete- do you see any issues laying on mortar over the existing concrete? Thanks
As a firm we'd rip it all out as we can't guarantee the strength of a sub base we didn't install. But doing it yourself, yes you probably can go over a concrete base as long as its sturdy and the levels low enough to slab over. Many people do without issue! Concrete is a very good sub base to lay on but remember its not permeable so dont use a brush in 'permeable' jointing compound. Use sand and cement to point with or grout depending on the slab.
@@HowWeLandscape Wow just reading your comment may have saved me. I'm soon putting down black limestone on a concrete slab and was planning to use brush in grout as I was worried about staining with slabs with sand and cement. You reckon I should just go for it? Beautiful work in the video btw
Thanks for the comment, yes if you have concrete under the slabs make sure the jointing compound doesn't need a permeable bed or water will sit in it and turn green. Grout is really for porcelain. So either sand and cement or 2 part resin. If you ask at your local merchants whats best they'll advise
@@HowWeLandscape Thanks for the tip. Do you fancy flying over to Ireland and doing the job for me? 🤣
Ha ,thanks for the offer. We've got plenty of our own to figure out, nothings ever straight forward. Good luck!
Can’t understand why you have such a thick layer of mortar under the slabs,,
Hi, we lay on 50mm but may be slightly more if the mot finished slightly lower.
Did anyone notice it
Hello Sir ,
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