HUGE CHANGES In Wheel Of Time Season 2's Finale...Now We Find Out WHY! Rafe Judkins Interview!
Вставка
- Опубліковано 4 жов 2023
- Spoilers ahead as The Character Sheet is talking about The Wheel of Time Season 2 finale on Prime Video with Showrunner Rafe Judkins, and asking what was behind the MAJOR changes from the Wheel of Time novels that we saw in the season's final episode. Rafe Judkins is answer all your burning questions about the season 2 finale and Season 2 of The Wheel of Time in general, from "Why did you portray Mat this way" to "Why change Perrin's story so much" all the way to what was behind the huge deviations from the story with Rand's actions and the battle in Falme?
So find out what the reasoning behind these major changes to Robert Jordan's source material were...and just HOW much Rafe Judkins changed from the Book's version of the Battle Falme as we bring you our exclusive interview with The Wheel of Time Season 2 showrunn Rafe Judkins!
#thewheeloftime #wheeloftime #robertjordan
Follow us at / dndsheet - Розваги
SO what did you think of the Finale of Season 2 of Wheel of time? Did you love the changes? Did you hate them?
I'm hate watching the series as so many plot holes and they contadict themselves and hell the magic system is complete pants, i mean hell they turned Matts dagger into a lightsaber now wtf?
“I win again Lews Therin.”
This show is amazing and the whiners simply have no understanding of how adaptations work.
Love the Finale, so the Changes doesn't bother me
There's several things I disliked. But I understand it's a low fidelity adaption. Some things are more egregious than others, like moraine breaking the three oaths.
I gave up on the series in season 1 and watching these clips I am positive I did the right thing.
100%, even the “positive “ reviews of this show are filled with pain and mind numbing hoops of mental preparation you need to be in so you can “ enjoy” the show ….. just ignore continuity and ignore world building and ignore on and on and on , and isn’t the explosion at sea cool ooohhh , no dummies we want you to write a story
Lmao : It is "more practical", so we have to downplay Rand.
Like it was "practical" when at the end of first season a couple of linked female channelers destroyed entire army of trollocs, with help of Egweine and Nynaeve, novices at the time.
The whole bloody point of battle at Falme was that it was a thunderous event that could be seen for miles around.
Our biggest issue with the series by far is Rand being way too weak to truly be the Dragon Reborn.
This series is obviously about Mooraine. She even conjured up the dragon
sorry they weren't even novices at the time they hadn't got to that stage till the inbetween time of season 1 and 2 :|
they didn't do anything though - just let their power be channeled.
Rand spent more time on his knees in the last two episodes and they took away the sword duel with High Lord Turak and the battle with Baalzemon in the sky. Sad.
Funny how the whole season was about the dragon annoucing himself and in the end he dident even do that.
I just finished reading book 2... he didn't really do the announcing in book 2 either... yes he fought Ishamael and was more or less accepting his role... but was still livid when he found out news about him being proclaimed the dragon.
@@rossallen738he doesn't want this news to be spread, but in the book Rand announces himself not with words but with his actions. It's because people see him fighting in the sky that they believe he is the DR.
In the show he just stabs Ishamael so there is no showcase of strength to the city and then it's Moirane who announces him. He does not announce himself
Rand never really embraced his Dragon status until the end of the 3rd book.
In the show they start cheering him and I dont even understand why... wtf did he do in the people's eyes? stab some old dude who no one really knows in this city? In fact they didnt even see him do that, he was at the top of a tower they couldnt see, its the whitecloaks they should cheer in that scene@@nikmede
The writers like spectacle , story gets in the way of their super cool ideas , they have billions of dollars to waste, you can’t waste money with good writing so we need all those grand pointless shots that they milk Amazon for the extra cash . Who ever hired these clowns and approved of their work should be ashamed of themselves and a failure of this magnitude that person should probably never works in the arts again , it’s not fair to their victims
"Too many battles in the sky on tv lately" Dumbest excuse for excluding such an important part of the book. I've not seen any of them other battles in the sky, but as a book fan, I was really waiting for this one. I don't give a crap about battles in other shows! This is the wheel of time dude, don't change it because it is too much of it elsewhere, especially when it is a essintial part of the story! This was supposed to be Rand's big moment! Instead, they made him seem like an audience to the whole scene! Second season was better than the first, but this was a really crappy finale Rafe. Be careful to take away and change big moments like these, it tends to upset people. Very much so!
I am glad it wasn’t in the sky that works in the books but for tv it’s cheesy . How does that occur anyway how do they explain that??
@@user-ob7wy1zy9m there are other things that are cheesy, like Perrin's wolf visions, but it works somehow anyway. If there is will, there is always a way. For example a mirror of the fight they never had on the ground. I can imagine many ways to do it.
It’s not cheesy CGI today! They just didn’t have it in the budget and were forced to write the Walmart ending not Tiffany’s 😭
And even without the sky thing, they could have done MUCH better than just Rand walking up to Ishamael and stab him... There's no way Ishamael would just let him do that without channeling SOMETHING at him.... I'm like you, I was looking forward to seeing that fight and thats why I powered through the entire season even though it was absolute crap
I agree Rafe is not good at his job. Like at all. His changes make no sense. Moraine leaving w a forsaken and nobody thinks holy shot is she black Aja? Rafe was the wrong person to have do the show. I also have not seen a single sky battle. It just shows he wants to make changes simply cause he wants to and he’s willing to lie his ass off explaining the changes. He has no balls or talent.
To me, Mat was done dirty. His book character wasn't driven by an esteem issue. It wasn't "I can't be a hero" it was "i don't want to be a hero". He and his friends just kept getting into trouble that required heroics to get out of. I consider it a major part of his arc that eventually he accepts that he is a hero and needs to do heroic things to save the world.
I agree. They damaged Mat character, not clearly defined properly, might as well shredded the whole thing and remake by Rafe, clearly he is not up to task, disrespect fan base, let along Jordan’s life work. Rafe should be guillotined.
The actor playing Mat was great but the changes to his story utter cack...and i just don't get it is the dagger now supposed to be Ashandarei because that really makes no sense(though the way he used it was cool)
@@wildfire160 that ashendari was just as ghetto as Mat was.
Very much this. Its the most basic characteristics of who Mat is, and she showrunner somehow gets this wrong. Mat is runnig around doing heroic stuff, while screaming from the top off his lungs that he dont want to be a hero. No way you can read the books and not get this.
@kapteintrefot I get the impression that there was thought behind the change. The Edmonds Field folks were aged up a few years.
Notice that Perrin wasn't the blacksmith's apprentice, but the blacksmith.
I think they were working off the assumption that aging Mat a few years turned him ghetto. I don't like how that changed his character and am hopeful that they will bring him more in line with the Mat we all know and love from the books.
Geez, where to start... What's the deal with the immortal Forsaken? Why could Rand kill Ishamael now, but not Selene/Lanfear just days before? Why did Lanfear fring Moiraine and Lan along anyway and not leave them behind in Tar Valon? Where did the soldiers spawn from that attack Moiraine and Lan, in the middle of nowhere about 10km from the city? Where did Hopper spawn from? Where did the magical Trebuchets come from (it takes a week to build one at least)? Why didn't the suldam / damane see them before they started firing? Why couldn't they destroy them after they started firing, when Moiraine can destroy ships from 10km distance? Why can the dagger melt metals all of a sudden? Why couldn't Elayne see that Rand was shielded? Apparently Nynaeve can only weave now when the writers want to, since there is no internal consistency to that? Shouldn't she at least bandage the wound up after pushing the arrow through with something to prevent Elayne from bleeding out through 2 wounds? Padan Fain whould NEVER willingly give away the dagger. Do the whitecloaks bring dozens of children with magical smoke along with them now? Also, what happened to the children since the whitecloaks charged straight through the smoke to the gate, they surely trampled them? Why would they charge 50 horses abreast when they aim to capture and go through a 5m wide gate? Where did the horses go after capturing the gate? Why steal another season finale highlight from Rand (Tarwin's Gap, and now the swordfight with Turak and then Ishamael)? Why did they do Mat dirty by him giving Rand the (presumably) incurable would in his side (instead of Ishamael)? Moiraine is depicted like an evil puppetmaster, treating Land and her sister and others like crap. The warder bond apparently disappears after being shielded (Rand would love to know that to get rid of Alanna later on)? How did Loial get the horn of Valere all of a sudden, did Lanfear just give it to them offscreen (why ffs?)? Why can Ishamael toss Egwene around like a rag doll one moment, and can she hold him off for quite a long time against him after regaining conciousness minutes later? What did Uno do to deserve to be a hero of the horn (blatant fan service)? Or Mat himself? How can Uno's shield block weaves from Ishamael? Does Mat throw his dagger-spear with a curve to hit Rand, he not right behind Ishamael when he throws it (why not stab him)? How is Elayne able to heal Rand from the cursed dagger wound while everyone else died instantly after being hit with the dagger? Et cetera...
I know you can't adapt the books 1:1 to the screen, but even if you disregard the source material entirely, this story has no internal logic or consistency whatsoever (most points above are not about the comparisment with the source material). The writers and showrunners are making a mess out of it. If you turn off your brain and just look for the nice effects and action, you can probably enjoy this. But if you start thinking about it, it is a huge pile of horse manure.
I'm not even going to start on differences between books and series, it is easier to name the simularities. It looks like Rafe thinks he writers better than Robert Jordan, and changes the story to his liking. I wish stories like Wheel of Time (and The Witcher, Ring of Power etc) were adapted by (more talented) people who actually like the source material and try to stick to it as much as possible, and not let loose their own ideas on it.
They have literally neutered Rand
He is weak and pathetic in every sense. They made him seem like he is so bad with the sword he had to use the power to defeat a master. Then Egwene is the one that basically defeated Ishy while Rand just sat there pouting, then finally gets up and... does nothing. Rand cannot even stand up to some of the weakest aes sedai.
Nynaeve... They set it up for her to heal Rand and Elayne does it? What? Elayne is not good at healing!
Don't get me started on the relationship shenanigans with Aviendha and Perrin and Matt and Minh...
Matt's love interest in the books is so FUN, but it seems like they are pairing him with Minh in the series
And while I dislike Perrin's actual love interest in the book, I hate how they are twisting so much to avoid to... "issues" with the... complicated Rand thing
I do love Lanfear though. She is incredible in every scene she's in. The only good thing about this series that is not worth watching.
I was not going to watch season 2... I did... I'm definitely sticking to that for season 3
Maybe one day the series will get a fair shake at being done correctly, but this is just BAD
You should add teleporting out of the ways by Lanfear to your list ..
My dude if I could give you more likes I would. This list is a small part of the literal elephant of bad writing and editing in the room, that makes up this incredibly messy, amateurish, non sensical adaptation by a guy who has no idea about how to handle the material.
I reckon having Randy’s threesome in this series would have given it heaps of attention and tons of free press. Instead it’s like every crappy CW show, pushing girl power that only a handful of actual girls are actually interested in, all the while going out of its way to emasculate the male hero, to the detriment of the story itself.
The answer to all your questions is simply: plot contrivance. A heavy handed use of it at that. Incredibly inconsistent show. The more I think about it the more I notice, the more I notice the more frustrated I get. Feeling very discouraged about the future of the show.
I think I understand. I had no real issues with the second season. Here's the thing... plot does not equal story. Here's an example of a plot "story". The Witcher series, the Hobbit, LOTR, even Eye of the World aren't great literature. I hate to break it to you. I like some of them but it's not literature. If you did read literature, you'd start focusing on the characters and less fixation on plot to do lists. again, plot is not story. Story is when characters move and change during a period of time as outlined in the story. It can be one day, one hour, 10 years or 1000 years. It's all about the characters. Everything else is background and not really essential.
I woke up. I read my emails and I saw an issue. I brainstormed with my partner and came to a plan. We executed the plan and we were successful. The end.
Was that really a story? No. It was a sequence of events being narrated. If I had added the character and more details, the scheming and the tweaking and the implementation, you would have enjoyed it and identified with me.
A lot of your points don't make sense. I'll just pick a few because my comment would get too long. I'll pick Nynaeve. During this season, we see her fighting, unable to use her powers under her control(she drinks toilet water). When she gets angry, she can access her powers. She wants to leave the Tower. So I don't get the accusation that there is no internal consistency. She's blocked for books in this series. She does some incredible things but she's blocked and it's a big part of her character.
This season fleshed out how scheming the Forsaken are. We see their power. We also see their complex relationships. Why do you think that Lanfear allowed Moiraine and Lan to come along? Well... she wants Rand to like her. Lanfear is obsessed with Lews and Rand is Lews Therin reborn. It would be awkward if she blows Moiraine and Lan up or does something to make Rand distrust her. Also, Lanfear didn't become a dangerous Forsaken by being stupid. She's manipulative and she's a survivor. When I saw that she allowed them to come with her, I knew she was planning to use them somehow. And yeah... she did. They were her "little surprise". Rand was the big surprise. But of course, scheming Forsaken so Ishy had his own little counter measures for Lanfear.
this season was really fun and good. I don't read stories and expect travel itineraries. I expect to see characters moving in a consistent manner to how they are defined. I'd be more surprised and upset if Moiraine wasn't cold and calculating and a "Holy Warrior" who was determined to ensure that Rand would survive and fight for the Light. I'd be surprised if Rand becomes magical dragon reborn when he's still doubting himself in that book. I like this Rand.
BTW.. it was efficient to have Matt stab Rand. It's still Ishmael show caused it. Remember, he even mocks Matt with noting that he should have noticed it's an illusion. (It shows how manipulative these Forsaken are as well.) I had zero problems with that. We already know that dagger is cursed and evil. A cursed knife is more plausible than some magic staff in the sky.
I'm coming at it from a literature reader perspective. That's where all the great novels are btw. Action does not make a story. Lots of events does not make a story It's always about characters and the exploration of humanity. That's what we have in all the greats. this fluff stuff like Lord of the Rings or Witcher.. it's cheap but fun. It's not intellectual. It's not good story. It just isn't. It's like Mcdonalds happy meal vs. say.. Frankenstein or Moby Dick or All quiet on the western front. Those last three are all great books that show us humanity. What exactly do you really pull from the Witcher or LOTR beyond cheap fantasy? (Don't get me wrong. I like this genre. But I grew up and that's why I have this opinion. There is a world of difference between the books you listed and the books that have withstood the passing of time and still provoke the reader into thinking about what humanity is.)
Did Rand fight Ishy? Looked like girl power fought him with Rand just stabbing Ishmael at the end .
lol yeah i question the we want it practical and to make it real without CGI, so they do Egwene making a shield and Ishy throwing Fireballs all in CGI and then rand making a flaming sword with CGI um do you even hear yourself Rafe?
You consider cowering under a shield (that's breaking within a few seconds) as "fighting"?
How is that a bad thing when Egwen was just showcasing her power to shield them even tho she was having a hard time. Egwen is ome of the best chanellers in the book especially her control. She had years of training before Rand have plus her potentail unlocked when she became a Adame.
@@sov4956 It's bad due to being another moment that was sposed to show the ability of the men and it was given to the girls on top of the girls own powerful moments, aka Nynaeve's 2 warder scene was sposed to be a Matt moment whilst he's recovering from being healed from the dagger and able to not only hold out against 2 warders but beat them . . . with a staff. It's also bad because they're failing to show Rand to be weak and incompetent when he's essentially at the same stage as the rest of them but can't fight and can't really contribute but he's sposed to be the MC
@@sov4956 not sure where you're getting your years of training before rand from ? i mean she didn't find out she could channel till a little over a year ago as beltine was shown in season 1 and in season 2 :| and we know she's been in the tower for 5-6 months in total where they say a lot of it has been chores with a few small lessons ' oh and for the first 6 months we saw only 1 lesson given and that is it. so she's had 6-7 months of training, and then here few days of intense training in falme maybe a week ? that in no way equates to years over Rand, The other big bad of this scene is that it has taken another of Rands big moments and given it to the girls, to the extent that Rand is pretty much where he was from day 1 he hasn't had a big moment he hasn't had a character arc.
All these studios want their series to be the next GOT. But they don’t do what GOT did which is to follow the author’s telling of the story(until season 8) and then they wonder why the series isn’t as good as GOT.
GoT started deviating from the books in season 5, but I agree that the show suffered from it
@@mihaigiboi2758 Rafe started the changes ep 1 and burned the books in his quest to show himself Robert Jordan's better. The only surprise is there has not been sharks with lasers yet.
@@jonahdav9589 completely agree with you about that. Based on what I’ve seen, most of the changes were not made with the intention of translating book to screen, those kind of changes are fine. What Rafe did unfortunately was dumbing down the story to such an extent it became another generic fantasy story, with several added plotlines that do little to nothing to contribute to the main overarching story.
@@mihaigiboi2758 GoT started deviating well before season 5, but regardless, it was also a much easier series to adapt. ASoIaF is a standard medieval world with a feudal system based heavily on real historical precedent and only occasional instances of largely unexplained and unexplored magic. Meanwhile WoT has a metric ton of mythology, lore, and worldbuilding exposition that needs to happen at the same time as the story is being told, which is no easy task.
Have you actually read how Rand defeats the forsaken in books 1-3? Did it make sense to you at all how a poorly trained Rand defeated them?
This show is a mess and completely misunderstands the main characters and their arcs in the story. Its not just a disappointment ita a complete misunderstanding of the entire story the Robert Jordan beautifully put together
The fact that they managed to bring Mat back on track after wildly reinventing his character for the first 15 episodes gives us some hope that they can right the ship on some of the others, but the deviations from the source material are getting rough for a lot of book fans.
@@TheCharacterSheet They had 2 seasons to have ANYTHING together. Why exactly do we give them MORE time?
@@Dooger414Exactly. 720 minutes in and they still haven't established any characters or plot or real stakes, never mind adapted anything at all from the books.
That amount of time I could have watched the entire extended edition LotR films.
He's not really back on track... he still isnt Mat... I mean it seems like they skipped the whole Eelfinn thing to give him his memories and gave that to the horn, ok fine let's accept it. But he seems okay with having those memories, how is that Mat? In the books didnt it take him until the last few books to accept those? @@TheCharacterSheet
@@armandpeanutspinou3430I agree with you. He is far from book Mat. But hey, now he turned the Shadar Logoth dagger into a lightsaber spear. What are they going to do with Fain now?
Hopefully someday they do this series the right way... instead of trying to convince people they can rewrite the books better... Having Moraine conjuring a fire dragon instead of Rand doing anything to proclaim himself is absolutely sh*t....
This series is so awful I’m shocked every time I catch. The recaps , after season 1 episodes 3 I made the suffering end . Imagining someone gets paid to produce such bottom barrel trash , your brain just melts . You can literally log onto a fan fiction site and read stuff that crushes this grade school level narrative . So wild
Why does rand not get any of his big moments ? Very underwhelming.
They have literally neutered Rand
He is weak and pathetic in every sense. They made him seem like he is so bad with the sword he had to use the power to defeat a master. Then Egwene is the one that basically defeated Ishy while Rand just sat there pouting, then finally gets up and... does nothing. Rand cannot even stand up to some of the weakest aes sedai.
It’s not time! Remember he has only known for six months he is the dragon and he is a sheep herder. If his power and authority as the dragon came in season two you would have had a problem with that too. It’s a tv series his character has a large amount of growth to come don’t rush it. I am impatient to see him as powerful to but I can wait.
Because due to their feminist/woke lean they want to make Egwene the star of the show instead.
Pushing through Ishmael's shielding to stab him was kind of a thing.
In the books the forsaken are always doing that creepy touch thing as a flex. It says "you are powerful, but I am stronger than you so I can physically touch you and there isn't anything you can do about it." It's all very rapey.
Him killing Lord Turok and his guard was a character moment. It wasn't a moment from the books though. IMO a sword fight at this point in the story wouldn't have been appropriate. There wasn't enough emphasis on his sword training. There wasn't much emphasis on his one power training either though...
Tldr; I found that Rand did have character moments. They weren't the same ones from the books, but I thought they fit his character well.
@@joeleek9976I thought the Turok scene was great. Like…no, I’m not going to waste my time fighting you with a sword when I can just annihilate you and your entire guard with the one power. To me it was like the scene in Indiana Jones when he shoots the guy wielding a sword.
As a book reader, this episode is complete trash highlighted by Egwene being able to hold off Ishy in the final battle (which is literally impossible based upon the source material). Judkins is an abomination especially in the way he has trivialized Rand (and Matt and Perrin to a lesser degree) in his crusade to bolster the female characters. Also amazing how Judkins retconned Fain’s dagger to be able to slice the Horn’s box, and anything else, but wasn’t strong enough to kill Loial in season 1. There are so many more things I could comment on that are horrific but suffice to say I am through with this pathetic adaptation.
Couldn't agree more.
The entire series is trash. Dude has no idea what to do. The project is too big for him. He did not understand the assignment.
Thanks for confirming it’s trash. I stopped after book 4 many years ago due to the long wait in between, but thought it was very strange egwene a trainee at this stage, can somehow hold off a forsaken, and one of the strongest amongst them.
Imagine if we had good director who respected the source material, how legendary this series could be. And the most frustrating is that now the book series is actually finished, so they can just copy the books to the end for the series unlike got. Hope wot tv series gets a remake in my lifetime before I die
Yes I’m done too
I think you'll be ok
I realize you are paraphrasing his responses, but it makes me wonder if Rafe has even read the series.
-Mat's personality in the book is vastly different than it is portrayed in the show. In the books, it's not that he doesn't feel he's a hero, it's that he doesn't want to be one. Yet the pattern keeps placing him in situations where he is forced to do something heroic. In his ideal world, Mat would be in a tavern, with a dice cup and some booze in front of him, and plenty of pretty ladies for him to get to know.
-Perrin questioning of violence stems from the Whitecloaks he killed in the first book, as a result of him losing control over Hopper's death. Yet the show undermines that by having him accidentally killing his wife. As for directly killing Borhald, this significantly alters future story lines.
-Rand does not fight Ba'alzamon in the sky. Instead the fight most likely happens in Tel'aran'rhoid, and due to thinness in the pattern at this particular moment, a vision of the fight is seen in the sky above Falme. But let's face facts, Rafe has been continuously pushing Egwene into Rand's spotlight moments. If they had kept the battle more book accurate, how could they have pushed Egwene into the battle?
Words cannot describe how much i despise the Hack for what he has done to WoT. Too many pointless changes and the way they have neutered Rand as a character is unforgivable
Yea as if Rand randomly winning the sword fight with Turak in the book wasn't an absolute Gary Stu moment lmao.. Rand becomes who he is slowly.. He had no teacher in the one power yet
@@abedmick2267 The Turok fight in the book was pure luck, it even says so, he shouldnt have won and that was ta'veren influence. instead he does a iron man shoulder missile insta gib, i could have accepted that, because two elaborate sword fights in on episode (against turok and ishamael) would have been to much. But they didn't even give us the Second one... that was Egwene protecting him, until moiraine did something way beyond her powerlevel out of nowhere, and then Rand was allowed to stab him ONCE.
i feel like part of the problem is they're spending too much time on moraine. maybe because she's the biggest star, i dunno. wouldn't shock me if she ends up sticking around the whole time. altho, it also wouldn't shock me if there is no season 4.
@@abedmick2267 Rand in the books is taught the sword by one of the greatest blademasters alive at the time, Lan. They spend months practicing the sword daily. It is directly because of Lan teaching him the sword that he survives the duel with Turok. This was an important character growth moment for Rand that was cut. Rafe is a fuckin hack!
@@alcovitch plus he continues learning and relying on the sword because many times when he tries to hold the one power he loses balance vomits up his guts about colapses and then loses the one power and he is afraid it wont do what he wants or wont come to him that he will look weak or just die. he is afraid of how the taint is affecting him. everyone else is thinking its rafe style magic and just say why u need a sword, grab the source and have at it.
I just find my self swearing at the TV. Everything seems to revolve around Egwene and Moraine
The Force is Femal... Oh wait. Wrong show.
There is no agenda... there is no agenda.... Diversity is our Strength! There is no agenda...
They turned an epic battle into a street fight then claimed they did it because we are tired of seeing huge battles that were done better?
entertainment is cliche.
No they did not want a huge skybeam fight and thats good. It would just have looked silly in live action.
Man I swear when these show runners try to justify their inadequacies I have to laugh
Probably to do with money that they can’t affort for the sky battle nor massive Valarie army! Bad excuses. A very poor executed design. NO POSITIVE CREDIT for Rafe. That’s negative credit for him.
Budget running out so we will do it on the cheap. Hope Amazon opens up those purse strings before we drowned in mediocrity.
How hilarious was it when hopper came out of nowhere to attack the one questioner that had a healthy paranoia of wolves.
also sad when hopper got killed. but so satisfying to see the children of the light cough up the blood. never liked the fucking children.
@@sortof3337 yeah I went from jeers to cheers to tears.
So they should have waisted precious minute to see hopper ignore Perrin not to come it was to dangerous and film him journeying to the city anyway please.
@@user-ob7wy1zy9m I think you may have misunderstood. I find it ironically funny. I’m not worried about the story telling of it. That would just be weird.
"Because they've seen it too many times before" sounds like a cop out bs answer....
I think a large part was VFX budget, and honestly, he could have probably just said that
@@TheCharacterSheet That was my thought; it sounded like code for "we didn't have the budget to make it not look like crap." Especially when he started in on "we could do more of it with practical effects."
Let's find a reasonable justification to save those $$$
How much did they spend on the stupid fire dragon? If they didn’t have the budget to do the climatic scene then they spent their budget poorly elsewhere on unnecessary scenes.
@@TheCharacterSheet except they needed to DO VFX for the fireballs and the power shield the entire time and then the sword of flame :| so that doesn't fly with me that it was the VFX budget, add to that season 2 had a bigger budget overall over season 1 without several of the costs including the covid restrictions of season 1, so yeah that doesn't fly either :| and season 1 had an 80 million budget :|
8 episodes are not enough for each characters development
Hey now! Stepin is very important! 😂😂
perrin just waits on the floor until the wolf is killed. don't think it was directed in a good way
I think the answer for the Battle of Falme and how they portrayed Rand is crap. You basically took away the moment that he is proclaiming himself the dragon. Not only to the world, but to himself. By leaving it to Moraine to do her dragon flame you still have him being proclaimed the dragon by the Aes Sedai and him still stuck in his "I won't be a false dragon" mindset. It's utter nonsense.
I think it could work if they handle rand taking callandor well but yeah it seems like that just ran out of time and threw that in there as an afterthought
@@drankzappa2110 Will he even take Callandor?? ...he gets it in Tear which isn't a new location for s3 but also he gets it while fighting Ishamael who they just killed off...
@@drankzappa2110 I'm a bit worried about that. Soon they are going to have to start compressing even more timelines. Two seasons in and we just finished the book 2 ending. There isn't going to be 14 seasons. I know, or at least it seems, they have introduced material all the way from book 4, but I worry we are going to get a "Game of Thrones" moment, or multiple where in order to finish the series they just throw out large parts of the story line in order to finish. I guess it's the book lover part that wants everything in, even knowing that you can't adapt faithfully everything in the book series, especially one with as many story plots as Wheel of Time.
S3 seems to indicate no Callandor as well, the neutering of Rand is inexplicable - We needed either the sword battle with Turak or Ishy, but got neither@@wildfire160
@@Brian-bt4jrhaven't they already thrown large parts of the books out? 😂
For all those calling people who point out fair and objective criticisms whiners, piss off. Did you even read the books? The show cannot call itself an adaption if its only adapting 5% of the source material. The marketing even backed off of saying that for season 2 after saying it was a faithful adaption in season one.
5% is being extremely generous. I mean the glossaries are pretty long, but just taking names from there doesn't add up to 5% I don't think.
Same here, I mean can you think of a single scene that was even close to what happens in the books?@@nathanmorgan3647
i still really wish rand atleast got to go beast mode once in 2 seasons. i think season 3 might be more rand centric. but they are doing it at the cost of relegating rand to a secondary character for the first 2 seasons. i think they could have found a happy compromise.
Rand's treatment is by far the biggest, lingering issue for the entire series
He totally went beast mode! Did you miss it? Rather than besting Turok in hand to hand combat he just murdered him and his cronies with the power. Then he murdered Ishamael while the latter was distracted by beast mode Egwene. Beast mode Rand in the series is something we can all admire, I think! /end sarcasm
btw... I would be stunned if Rand does much in season 3. In the book he was practically a secondary character as most of the focus was on the other characters chasing him to Tear.
@jdweberg true, but the show is going a different take, so season 3 could be more rand centric. If rand is pointless in season 3 as well, I think even the book readers who love the show will have a problem with it.
Rand will be pointless... they've already said a lot of the story will focus around the battle of the two rivers
Dropped the shows after s2e3 and everything I've heard about the finale says I was right to cancel prime
The point of him NOT killing Bornhald was part of the story later. It had nothing to do with him but he was pursued for it.
Now the Whitecloaks are very much justified in going after Perrin. Lol They were saving the city and a dog was mauling one of their soldiers so yeah the Whitecloaks did nothing wrong! 🤣
Eh, still sketchy justification. Perrin was defending the city, too. Valda attacked him without provocation.
i actually like this one than the books, dain was like a moron in the books. this actually makes a lot more sense that dain has a vendetta against perrin now. specially since that story arc drags for so long in the books.
@@xyr3s it drags on bc it’s meant to play out across multiple books. So yeah in a tv show it’s gonna need to be condensed. So what you are really saying is that you like watching TV more than reading books. Gratz. 👏
@forsaken7976 I loved the books, but they had their own problems lol. Did I also enjoy season 2? Yup. I'd say 7 or 8 out of 10 as a stand alone show. 6 out of 10 as a book adaptation:)
Amazing how rand does absolutly nothing. No display of power no nothing. All he did was stabb ishmael. Sure he was probly the only one that could power the sword enough to kill him but that dosent come off.
The show, which has definitely gotten better this season, still struggles pretty hard in making Rand have any characteristics of the Dragon Reborn so far.
@@TheCharacterSheet yes i agree much better, but as u say he is more if a bystander, i mean his whole Battle in the sky was replaced by him kneeling inmobile the entire fight.
I love the books since teenhood, and I've decided to read them again following more or less the series' pace... and I think what they've done with Rand so far is very clever. I mean, TV series work much better with an ensemble team of heroes, sharing both the power and limelight. I love Rand but I'm very glad that the show made it step back a little for now, so that we can root and love many other characters as well. It makes it less "Rand's story" and more of an epic tale with lots of heroes to identify with. Yes they could have made Rand more Drangonlike already, but would that have been better, or just more identical to the books' story?
@@metube6482 both, the way Rand kills Ishamael was as cringey as in season one, this season was better, but the first one didn't set the bar pretty high, as a show in and of itself I know I would have dropped it were I not a fan of the books, but I also loved The Witcher books and I barely watched 30 min of season 3 before dropping it in disgust, so my love of the books won't carry me forever...
@@adilsoncaetano5684 Well, the problem with Witcher is that the books were a much weaker work to start with (IMHO they would have remained mostly unknown outside of Poland if it weren't for the remarkable RPG games CD Project managed to create out of them). But Netflix is doing a decent job with them so far, especially with Season 3 that is worth a watch. Of course it's not a HBO production and it bares the usual Netflix flaws, but at least it's been overcoming several of the books shortcomings. WoT is another debate, I believe, but it's a good thing we're getting out of the "adaptations have to tell the same stories as the books" deadend, because it was starting to get old...
I really hope the wait pays off. Rand has many big action moments so I'm not really worried about him. If by next season he isn't put on display (Perrin too) then the protest begins.
Gluton for punishment and naivite eh?
@@nathanmorgan3647 yes. I admit 😂
@@dalgron haha
My problem with that is that the Battle of Falme is a huge moment for Rand. The sword fight with Turak is supposed to show that he’s able to fight with a blademaster by subconsciously reaching for the Void that was taught to him by his father, which is a huge revelation later relating to his use of saidin. Not to mention his epic battle with Ishamael that was cast in the skies above Falme, making it clear to the world that he is the Dragon Reborn. Enough so that people are able to paint his likeness without ever once meeting him. Moiraine being the one to proclaim Rand to the world with that flame dragon takes away from the prophecy since it seems like any Aes Sedai could proclaim just about anyone to that role with the same weave. 🤦♂️
battle what battle hes spent the whole fight on the ground then just gets up and walks up to the big bad and stabbing him like nothing
He did Rand dirty.
I think he was makinv Rand having a character Development.
Not as dirty as Mat. I thought Rand was pretty ok. His character lines up with the book character imo.
Others might value different things in that character, so I hope my comment provokes a response where folks can share what they value in Rand's character
Rand was not allowed a single moment to shine. He was weak & had to be repeatedly rescued by others, he was impotent. Done dirty indeed!!!
Huh, what? Mmmmk
Beyond dirty
They are taking Rands moments away from him and it's not cool
That remains our biggest issue with season 2
Love the comment section getting behind Rand, what they are doing to him isn't cool and it hurts the show
That is our one, big complaint, as it is the source of all the shows remaining issues.
To me it feels underwhelming as a whole, the money in the hands of other more experienced people could have made something 10x this.
Peter Jackson should have done this show
Yeah, well that's corporate DEI programs for you. Remember that next time you board an aircraft. "There is the pilot equivalent of a Rafe Judkins up there in the cockpit."
It wasn't that they are inexperienced. It is that they are talentless hacks that lack the wit to recognize their own limitations and thus rewrite stories that they are not fit to read. Not that they read them beyond the Cliff's Notes.
Well Rand can go home now. Clearly he isn't needed since Moiraine and Egwene are more powerful.
Rand is pretty much useless. They changed him so much. Even the battle that was supposed to be fought was absent. To top it up, mooraine conjured up the dragon?
So stupid
Egwene was getting crushed. Then Perrin and Egwene together were getting crushed. Then Rand killed Ishamael without breaking a sweat. But if you're that invested in hating the show, go on and make whatever reductive and bad-faith arguments you want.
@@SpydeyDanis that what happened? It looked like he was all used up after fighting Eqwene. Definitely would have been easy to show Rand overpower him with the weave then kill him…
@@jordanmcddd used up? He looked like he was exerting himself about as much as you do getting the lid off a stubborn jar of pickles. Either way, Egwene's shield was failing before Perrin stepped in with Uno's shield, and they were both gone by the time Rand stepped forward and deflected Ishamael's last attacks without even flinching.
Yeah, the series is focussing on the ensemble and the support Rand receives from his loved ones more than it is focussing on Rand as a solitary hero, which may seem like a betrayal of the source material until you remember that it was one of the core themes of the entire story.
@@SpydeyDan what was Perrin doing in the magic battle?
As a non-book reader, I have to say... I really enjoyed both Season 1 and 2. Season 2 was a lot hyper though, since I had pretty much dug up some lore from UA-cam and was excited every week. My only issue is I think there could be more intense fights with the one power. All the fights are one sided..... Even the Amerlyn seat got blown away (after an epic display of conjuring glass knives)... Everyone gets blown away pretty much or held in place. There's no back and forth sparring matches using the one power. The showcase of the one power in some areas were fantastic.... but in others the use of the one power lacked imagination. The way Ishamael attached the shield of Egwene was so one dimensional too... Anyways... I hope this gets renewed for a Season 3, it has soooo much going for it.
Aes Sedai are not allowed to channel against others unless 1. They feel like their life is in danger or 2. Against Darkfriends. The Seanchen follow no rules like this and why their slaves fight. Worry not though, Falme is just the beginning. Lots of battles to come!
Much of the struggle of one power users doesn't translate well. Too much stuff is going with the weaves. I think it would be lost on most viewers.
@@gcp5898 Unless the showrunner cocks them up because honestly so far he`s not nothing close to right...
This is the sad shit , “ I really loved this show “. “ the show was uncreative and the character were one dimensional “. This is how pretty much everyone who likes the show describes it , something they like, but by their own definition is pretty much awful in almost every way …. It’s crazy
Ok, for budget reasons, the battle in the sky was on a tower. I can accept that. But why was the battle Egwene doing everything until Rand stumbled forward and seemingly accidentally stabbed Ishamael?
because he thinks it is Better.
Love this series so far. I think the reason why there was not a big battle in the sky is budget.
The only change (out of MANY) that I think made sense and works for TV was Perrin directly killing Geofram Bornhald, especially since he didn't kill the 2 random whitecloaks in season 1 like I would've expected. I agree with the video here that it's an easier way for the TV audience to see the setup contention between him and the whitecloaks throughout the series, and we'll hopefully see that payoff in Season 3 of the show back in Emond's Field. As for the rest...ugh. It's getting harder and harder to get excited for this show when they tease some great adaptation moves (Nynaeve's testing is a standout) but then totally miss the mark or blatantly twist the main story, lore, magic, character strengths and hero moments, etc into oblivion for book fans. They have a great cast here and some amazing costuming and set design and production values this season. The writing team and direction needs to step up and respect the source material better, imo.
I agree that it makes sense to kill Bornhald. But the TV show has Perrin straight up murder Bornhald whereas in the books Perrin kills the Whitecloaks more out of self defense, confusion and a tad bit of going berserk. An accidental killing of Bornhald in the TV show would be so much better later on...
I firmly believe that these shows would benefit from a longer run time. The books are huge there just isn't enough time with 8 hours per season, considering the fact that the reading time for the book 2 audiobook is TWENTY SEVEN HOURS LONG. Not to mention the pointless almost 45 minutes wasted on the NON CANON MOIRAINE SISTER AND NEPHEW PLOT.
Yes they would, but they would also need better writers. Writers who knows how to adapt.
Word counts are deceptive.
Just take major plot beats.
Book one: Setup > attack on EF > first town/meet whitecloaks > shadar logoth/party split > Rand & Matt with Thom/Fade attack > Perrin & Egwene with Elyas/travellers > Nynaeve/Moiraine pursue perrin > White cloaks 2: electric boogaloo > Reunion in Caemlin > the ways > Fal Dara > EOTW.
That REALLY isn't that much.
Book two: Rand meets the Amyrlin (a man stays on his feet) setup the season/faldara attacked > Begin the chase > Alienation between the boys > girls journey to the tower, Nynaeve's block > logain & tower politics > Selene and the mirror worlds > flicker episode > Egwene captured > Egwene rescued > battle of Falme.
This is JUST from memory having read the series again right after S1 released.
The problems began bc Rafe wanted the Aes Sedai front and centre, so he had to cast more of them and essentially make up an ENTIRE subplot that goes nowhere.
Add in the VERY dumb mystery box, and season 1 was ALWAYS going to be a disaster of an adaptation. It had some good moments, but then episode 8. So yeah.
When a LOT of the theming from S1 is just ENTIRELY dropped for S2, when things are retconned without even a nod to the audience... I think it is VERY fair to say mistakes were made. But Rafe NEVER seems to acknowledge this. He's just arrogance personified. Angry with fans for wanting a more faithful adaptation.
I just watched, and had seen something withEgwaen that i didn’t like, but when I actually watched it, it wasn’t what was implied, so I was happy about that. Now Mat stabbing Rand no, it was an important thing in the book that Rand take Ishmael’s blade, it was a theme throughout the book series
The only reason I can accept Mat stabbing Rand is because it shows that Min's visions are inevitable but also that they dont always play out like you might think
They did dirty on all three Taviren, Rand of course but even worse Matt. In the books Rand never had Sex with Lanfier. And the,whole story makes no sense anymore now.
Lore Raper Rafe strikes again.
How kind of Rafe. We surely are going to see Rand become a blademaster by Season 8(It’s unlikely to make it to season 4 due to the ratings drop). At the rate Rand is learning to channel he would be at the level of a novice by the time the show is cancelled.
Nah, it won't drop, it's just because you're too invested in the books and have your own version of it in your mind doesn't mean the show is bad
@@deadlyecho Have you seen the Nielsen’s ratings for Season Two? The ratings dropped by more than 60%. If this was a Netflix show it would have been cancelled Yesterday. But since it is Amazon the show is hanging by a thread.
I don’t like show and it’s changes and others may like the show specifically due to its changes. Let us see if there is an improvement in the ratings over the weeks.
Why are you complaining? The men are mostly evil, stupid, weak and (most importantly) wrong. While the women are mostly good, intelligent strong and (most importantly) right. It fits Amazon's agenda perfectly.
@@deadlyechopeople like you are the reason why these writers take these liberties and bomb …
The show is obviously bad and I haven’t read the books …
The people who are supposed to be the protagonists do nothing … What did Rand do in the Finale ?
What did Naeneve do in the Finale ?
The character development is just terrible …
You are spot on, and for those of us who have read the books it is even worse as we see our favourite characters from the books being altered, turned into complete assholes, killed off for no reason when they were not in the books, over-powered, or completely emasculated. @@grichkatayou7558
I love the s2 finale tbh. But I didn’t read the books yet. I can imagine how disappointed those who have read it. Maybe😅
Read the books and the show will disgust you. You'll still be better off in the end.
We bookfans are horrified at what they did in this tv series. You can not fathom the absolute scope of our disappointment. Rafe Judkins and the showrunners prove time and time again that they did not read or understand the books and that their own political ideologies are nothing but a burden to follow along with the books.
I think the series is awful all on its own , I’m betting your a synder kind of guy ,
Talk about being delusional Rafe keeps trying to convince us that he is writing Shakespeare when he’s writing newspaper comics. 😢
That's an insult to newspaper comics!
It’s no coincidence that he’s the ‘writer’ on the worst episodes of a bang average show. We understand that events need to be streamlined but why make characters in to unrecognisable crazy people who aren’t even consistent within the show, let alone the books!
Umm, excuse me, but I enjoyed Dagwood and Hagar the Horrible.
Rafe can go F himself. He isn't paper worthy.
season 1 finale trolloc battle scene taken from Rand and given to the ladies who have zero training, season 2 egwene after being pulverized by a trebuchet, fighting her slaver and getting tossed like a ragdoll into a wall gets up and with a few lessons holds her own for a long time against a consistent onslaught by a forsaken that can toss aside veteran aes sedai with a flick of his finger.....OK smh
Rand constantly having his big moments taken from him is our one, big complaint about the show after the finale.
They are likely skipping Tear, so they had better give rand his proper Aiel storyline in S3.
Skipping Tear would rip huge holes in the cast and necessitate completely new introductions for Gaul and the rest of the Aiel. And Callandor is kinda important to the story.
@@user-fo5qf1bt5r don't worry, he'll probably make the sword himself. maybe he'll tie a 100% evil item to a stick... wait that's already been done, hasn't it... 🤯
@@user-fo5qf1bt5r Gaul is dead. He was the dead Aiel in the cage in Breen Springs back in S1. Remember the stone dog statuette Thom and Mat found on him? That's the show's 'oh so clever' easter egg. That's what this show does, peppers all the invented scenes with occassional memberberries and easter eggs, like peanuts in a turd, and expects book fans to be grateful for it.
Rand didn't even need to be there lol
Egwene fought ishamael (a novice in the tower fought off the strongest forsaken... Makes sense) and all rand did was stab him with no resistance. Terrible writing.
He is a dark friend . With no idea the premise of the book . Clown shoes
Would think with all the dead bodies laying around Matt would at least be able to find a decent jacket
Maybe this version of Matt has already seen his future in all of Tylin's fancy jackets and just started to rebel lol
Where to begin ; If they wanted to scale down vfx why did they remove the swordscene between rand and tuark (sp) they only needed to place him in the ''void' state when tuark should loose to Rand. Second - less vfx? the whole seanchen boat channel babes throwing vfx shields around like they could see him from there. ; Just come out and say it like it is and be done; Rand is not the main character. The dragon reborn is not the main character , the car'a'carn is not the main character. Nynave could not channel again? she should been furious when the arrow hit Elaynes leg, Egwane being the babe boss not a pitcher smasher to the face of a sul'dame.
The show runners are using the female to remove the male and destroyed the source material. Why even have male characters to begin with? to neuter them?
The show is wheel of time in name only - the rest is a charade.
Once again because of the 8 episode limit they had to rush the character arcs for many of these characters. Some of the changes were good and necessary. Some where just too rushed and didn’t feel earned
So, you're saying the show's writers, director, and producers didn't have enough time in the season to include the development of the main characters (the three Ta'veran) but they had the time to include all that dismal stuff with Moiraine and Lan? That stuff was not in the books. They had time to create scenes, completely made up, about Liandrin and her son and more scenes with Moiraine and her family. Where, I ask you, does Rigney or Sanderson address such topics? How much time should be devoted to Rafe;s fan fiction at the expense of the main characters?
Every time I hear from him I get the impression he never actually read any of the books...
kind of annoyed there was no Turak vs Rand duel
you must have blinked.
Thanks for sharing this interview! It's cool to get feedback from the showrunners so soon after the episode aired.
I felt blah...at the end.
you'd think these shows would have learned from the catastrophe of game of thrones that people do not like deviations from source material! just follow the source and you'll have a beloved, popular show! how hard is that to understand!!!
The problem is scope. I think this series just never got the run time or episode count it needed to tell this story close to the source, and once they started cutting and streamlining out of necessity it they just had a few major missteps that they are still trying to recover from.
thing is GOT, became bad after they ran out of source material I mean George still hasn't finished, the winds of winter which has been in development for what 12 years now ? is said to be book 6 of 7 :| and george was along for the entire ride giving imput into the series the entire time too.
I LOVED that season finale. But what frustrates me is how weak and invalid they made Nynaeve. In the books she is one of the strongest women channeller and was even the one to discover how to reconnect stilled/gentled Aes Sedais. She is very powerful but for the entire season they made her so goddamn weak?
She's not weak. She has a block. The block is a very very important part of her character and I'm glad they highlighted it
Nyneave the great healer doesn’t heal. 🤦♂️ It’s a mess.
@@abedmick2267The show says she can channel when angry or scared, but then doesn't follow thru on their own block rules. She wasn't angry or scared up on top of that Tower? maybe she was sleepy and needed a nap.
She can't use the one power in the books until way after book 2. She is not a powerful healer until way later the story.
@@joshuabrown4652 since when did the show care about following the path of the books ? You can’t have it both ways. You can’t use the books to defend the show when the show cares nothing for the books. It’s like cherry picking.
4:28 man they practically were just short of saying avengers assemble the way he had them come together, I'd rather it be held more true to the book than the path they had chosen
I like the season (not love) but I really dislike how Moraine is more of a main character while Rand powers are barely explored.
That $hit was trash 😂😂😂
What battle on the tower? Rand did nothing. he is lame in this adaptation
I can understand the rest but if Rafe intends to make the spectacular scenes "more real" he's gonna have a problem. There are very few crowd pleaser scenes like the Battle of Falme in the books. Those are the payoffs for a whole lot of buildup, sometimes lasting one whole book, sometimes even multiple books. If he's gonna taper those off it's gonna get very boring very fast.
I hated that they killed Hopper. It was really painful to watch. I also wanted Egwene to torture Renna more than she did.
Hopper died in book 1... it happened when Perrin and Egwwne were first captured by the white cloaks
I didn't like that Egwene killed Renna. Show making her into a murderer is overdone in my view. Part of her struggle is dealing with her trauma and hatred of the Seanchan and not crossing that line. This takes away from who she is.
@@user-yp6yr9te7l I agree she should not have killed her.
@@user-yp6yr9te7l Making the characters what they aren't is the entire point of this light forsaken show.
I was hopping for a large battle in the sky and big sword play with Turok. But he Indiana Jonesed him. Lol. This season and 1st would benefit from 10 episodes each. To further develop everything. Episode and whole season 7/10. Definitely better then first
Agreed, we didn't love some of the finale choices, but overall the season was a step up!
Indiana jonesed, definitely I can relate, such a cheap lazy Rafe, a feminist simp. He can’t man up and follow the bloody book.
Crap, crap, crap. Rafe is worried that Rand's sword skilled are being overlooked? So what does Rand do? Oh, he makes a brief movement when Lan is prepping him to meet Siuan, and reaches for Rand's sword. THAT'S IT. That is the one demonstration of Rand's sword skills. No duel with Turak, which was hugely significant in the book, instead he goes Indiana Jones and just murders Turak and a dozen guards with the Power. No flaming Power-sword battle in the sky with Ishamael, instead he walks through Egwene's shield (don't get me started about that crap), and Ishamael stops attacking while Rand pushes the sword into his chest. None of that makes sense. Up to that point, though, Moiraine has killed more people with Rand's sword than Rand has (well, she stabbed Lanfear through the heart and slit her throat, but apparently the Forsaken are demons who auto-resurrect; more crap). As for Mat, this show ruined his character, and his growth arc. In Jordan's WoT, Mat wants to be left alone, doesn't want to be important, surely doesn't want to be a hero. His Ta'veren nature, his supernatural luck, and the Pattern all conspire to place him, time after time, where the only choice open to him is the heroic one, and he NEVER fails. Amazon's Mat is a cretin who makes the coward move every time. Ishamael, in a confidential conversation with Liandrin, says that Mat is "already mine". Disgusting misuse of the source material, and horrible writing. Moiraine destroys her adherence to the Third Oath when she destroys the Seanchan fleet (something she doesn't remotely have the power to do. Distance is a factor in the effectiveness of channeling, and those ships are more than half a mile away, but her fireballs, which run underwater, travel all that way and then easily tear apart all of those ships. Without a single Seanchan damane attempting to block it.) Neither she nor Lan was in personal danger from those ships. In Jordan's WoT, Aes Sedai have to pretty much walk into the middle of a battle before being free to attack, unless they are sure their opponent is shadow-spawn. More than once a Sister claims that she must feel in danger before she can use the Power to fight. So every Seanchan person harmed by Moiraine is a violation of her Oath. Egwene is wearing a damane collar when facing off with Renna. We already know that she cannot touch the bracelet while collared. Yet somehow she picks up a bracelet and puts it on. This makes the third time that Egwene has been captured or in extreme danger and rescued herself. It really gets tiring. There is so much more wrong with this, (Perrin, Aviendha, Hopper, Loial, Ingtar, the Horn), but I'll stop now.
I'm still not convinced we wouldnt have been better off without this murder attempt of Jordan's legacy, named, Wheel of Time Series.
strong disagree. Season one was mediocre at best but season two is excellent and the vast majority of viewers are loving it.
@@Ireniicus you mean the viewers that are left? Disregarding the changes to the books, the show cant tell a coherent story in and of itself.
Where is Min, she just disappeared?
Is the Shadar logath Dagger a definitive kill or not? (in the season two finale it killed a soldier instantly, but rand is kinda fine)
What lifts nyneaves block? rage, anger, depression, sadness?
Why build up Nyneave for the whole second season, to have her do NOTHING in the finale? Seeing Ishamael bombard the rest of the crew, should have made her angry enough, and being a good bit more powerful then egwene, she could have blindsided ishamael and helped rand give him the killing blow.
Power levels are all over the place especially with egwene and moraine.
The whole tied off shield vs stilled.
How did moraine release the warder bond, or do you not need to be able to channel to release it?
Not all male Channelers being able to see the power? Is it a Logain specific talent? Otherwise why couldnt Rand see the shield?
The power now being two parts or not, wasnt in season 1.
Can women teach men? Parts of Season 1 more or less said they could, season 2 says no.
The Amyrlin Seat knowing Verin can lie, or are they stupid? (s2e7)
and there are lots more plot points that are just not coherent.
@@Ireniicus It must be pleasant to be able to shut your brain off like that.
Mat was the most honorable character in the books. The way they portrayed him was wrong.
Kinda sad to see rand got no sword training. Why even give him a heron marked blade? Was part of his character dev. He did some sword training to justify being an owner of that sword. The blade is a reminder of his ties with his adoptive father. He couldn't give it up so he had to get sword skills. And he kills another blade master with just his sword skills and maybe some luck. Sad it wasn't shown.
Can we replace rafe already… still doesn’t seem like he understands the source material.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that this isn't exactly why he was hired.
Finale felt weak and rushed after a mostly decent season. Completely gutted
they basically turned mat into something else entirely.
I could understand the changes because of the S1 ending. Also throughout the book, when they all worked together, they were most successful. Rand needed to learn that as he does begin to depend on Perrin & Mat throughout the up coming books
But Rand doesn't do any. Egwene seems more like the dragon than him on the show.
@ahmorgan I think the pandemic caused the ending of S1 to drastically change and S2 spent the season correcting those changes. From now on the series should progress with the story as stated in the books. Rafe stated that S3 will refocusing Rand, his sword training finally taking place. Now we just have to worry about Bezos and Amazon greenlighting another 4-5 seasons
Rafe doesn't know what he's talking about Jesus this show is The CW with bigger budget
The only answer Rafe could give for this sacrilege is that Robert Jordan snubbed him once 20 years ago, and this is his revenge.
Garbage they have turned it to boring Clif notes. I was done when they did the flash back and they called him The dragon reborn 3000 years ago before he actually died. Sloppy didn’t even know the source material
I loved Everything
I just wish they did Rand vs the Dark One himself at the end.
After killing Ishamael, the Dark One should've taken Rand into Tele'aran'rhiod and because of the Horn everyone would see it through thunder flashes in the sky.
*so other than some magic and images in clouds there wouldn't be any ridiculous CGI...
Whats clear is this show runner has no damn idea of what makes these characters tick and doesn't understand what key moments need to be shown as is. He's "condensing" in the wrong places and adding a bunch of made up filler.
His excuses are really bad. This guy is a hack.
Ah, all main good characters are mostly selfish, while the main bad guys are altruistic... Fundamental difference imo.
Perrin killing bornhald (he was fighting on the same side) in a fit of rage, which was actually a betrayal, I would not forgive him for that as Dain. So that conclusion is out of the window.
Mat isnt the Mat from the books...
Rand isnt rhe Rand from the books either and is not becoming a leader of men.
That said, they already showed in the first season that a group of half trained channelers can take out an army that cannot be taken out by a force in a defensive position, so who needs armies and leaders of men.
This finale could be summed up as “unearned.” The only payoff that felt satisfying was Egwene with her Sul’dam, and that robbed from the rest of the cast and what they were going for as a whole thematically. Better together? Let’s let the only payoff we have earned be a solo one.
I loved the finale and it was my favorite episode of the series. 9 out of 10 at least. Read the book series several times, and the fact that there have been changes from the original, does not bother me. I only wish that Amazon would give them more episodes. The vast majority of people like the show.
And I'm so happy to read more and more of these reactions everywhere! I think we're finally at a turning point, with more fans realizing that a good adaptation isn't an adaptation that retells the same story exactly, that changes are necessary and welcome, and that watching book adaptations with that in mind provides a much better experience for sure. In my point of view something happened with Apple's Foundation, which was another eternal classic that has been put upside down to make it a good streaming show, and has earned fans' approval in doing so. That's why I'm convinced that WoT S1 main issue was that the fandom wasn't ready yet to see the story changed and adapted into a TV series, but with season 2 most of the audience is already reacting better to it.
@@metube6482 looking at a poll done on the Dusty Wheel, about 89% really liked the finale. I can understand people unhappy that they did not closely adopt the books. But I enjoyed the books, and now I am enjoying the show. There have been shows that were good and closer adaptions to the book, Expanse and Silo recently come to mind. But the authors were involved in the production. That said, I am happy with season 2 and hope we get a lot more.
@@metube6482 Season 2 is better only because it's starting to get slightly more faithful to elements of the books, which is an improvement. There is no turning point. What turning point? Changes are not necessary, and are only welcome if they truly are necessary or serve some narrative purpose. WoT finale was serviceable, but the changes were all terrible fundamentally. An adaptation is by definition telling the story that was written. It's not a retelling, that makes zero sense, it's just a telling, of the story, that was written. Changing fundamentals to that story, is not telling that story, it's making up another story, and slapping the author's name on it pretending it's that author's. There are changes that are acceptable, like replacing Glorfindel with Arwen and omitting Tom Bombadil in The Lord of the Rings films, and then there are changes that take away or flat out negate the actual story, like removing Rand's battle with Ishamael having him be saved 3 times and making his reveal at Falme something that's entirely manufactured by Moiraine instead of prophecy coming true. This is a fundamental change as it negates the central theme of the Pattern being a higher power. Through Moiraine's intervention, the writers essentially are saying there is not Pattern, just humans being schemers. It alters the spirit of the tale. In a bad way.
@@user-yp6yr9te7la TV series adaptation is not an audio book with pictures. Very happy that Amazon understands that and creates something so good inspired from Jordan's great books. I see a turning point in the fact that recent adaptions like witcher, rings of power, foundation and wot are such huge successes, and it's now okay for most fan to say "I love the original books AND I'm happy with the TV series as well".
@@metube6482 The problem with this argument is when you alter the source material, its no longer The Wheel of Time, but Rafe Judkins fan fiction television series about the Wheel of Time. His goal as a showrunner clearly isn't to give respect the source material, its to try and captivate audiences with a fan fiction retelling and try to modernize a story that never needed to insert feminism into its writing. Its already a master class of equality as it is. Fans of The Wheel of Time book series who are the true die hard fans of Robert Jordan's work have every right to hate this approach to this retelling and wish for something better or someone to take over with more respect to the source material. We understand there is always going to be something that has to change in an adaptation, but being a big fan of the book series, I feel the changes made were only done because it didn't fit into Rafe Judkins half baked version of the story, instead of remaining as faithful as possible to the written material that is there. This show exists because the books are awesome. Why remove the awesome from the books so he can retell it in a way that isn't as good?
The display of power levels in the show is so bad.
They will have a lot of trouble reconciling it going forward. Ishamael is supposed to be as strong as peak Rand...and yet Egwene just held him off solo while injured...who is cannonically far weaker that Rand or any of the Forsaken.
This was the biggest issue for me (among many others..): Ishamael was the strongest Forsaken - on par with Lews Therin Telamon with the One Power! - and had centuries of Age of Legends knowledge, but novice Egwene can randomly shield people from him? He should have torn her apart without a flinch
Maybe next time make Question 1: How do you pronounce your first name, Rafe? 😆
Listen, Christian mispronouncing names is at this point a running joke on the channel that we bring up every interview :D
Ha! Fair enough. Apologies for the presumptuousness. 💙👍
Just call him Lore Raper Rafe. Wraps it all up nice and neat.
Best summary of the tv show I've come across was something like this:
If you took Harry Potter, and made it about Dumbledore instead, and then rewrote it so that Dumbledore was in the story most of the time... and if you took Harry and Ron's parts and gave them to Hermoine... then you'd have Rafe Judkins' WoT.
Plus the horn looked like a golden bedpan.
Another great critique was simply picture of Rand, Matt, and Perrin, with the caption, "I hope there is a spin off show where they explore the adventures of these three".
Moiraine already has her spin off! It's called New Spring.
Apart from that, what's not to love right? Still... better than the utter nonsense of S01, but still suffering from the many bad decisions made from the start. It's kind of infuriating. Personally, I'd love to see "Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time". I think Rafe has had his turn at this point.
I like the Harry Potter analogy. Just add in that they're not kids, Ron fridges a 'wife' in the first chapter of book 1, the heroes are all assholes but Voldemort is sympathetic and the Death Eaters are kinda helpful, the magic works kinda differently and the rules for how are inconsistent, and the cool cinematics of broom flying and Quidditch were waved away as 'overdone by other shows'.
As a person who hasnt read the books I loved it I cant wait for season 3
A lot of people agreeing with this. It's hard to overlook a lot of things as a big fan of the books, we almost wish we could mind wipe ourselves before we watched it to just enjoy the spectacle :D
If you read the books you will realize why the book readers cannot stand it. It is a real let-down. So many elements have been stripped from the story because they do not fit with Amazon's 'social agenda'. They said at the start that they were going to cut out elements of the story because they could not fit it all in and we understood that. But, what they didn't say was they they were going to cut out 99% of the story to fit in low quality ideas dreamed up by Rafe that are chosen to fit the political and social narrative that he supports. Its garbage. Rand is a minor character in the tv series. He is the MAIN CHARACTER in the books.
i think it was too rushed. I think all season finales need to be 30 minutes longer@@TheCharacterSheet
I read the books and I'm also enjoying the show. I will never understand why fans want/think they are going to see the same thing on TV as what they read in the books.
We all expected the shows to cut a lot out. What we are angry about is the fact that they replaced what they cut out with stuff that has nothing to do with the books. Rafe said before season 1 that he would use the show to push his agenda which he should not be doing. He should stick with the source material, not invent his own rubbish, and in what way do the the three main characters of the books resemble the minor characters who play their roles in the series? That's why it is the Wheel of Rafe's Ego, because it certainly is not the Wheel of Time. @@cristianlopezcamelo6900
This show is awful with pathetic character development. Read some rebuttals on here and the pretentiousness is astounding. Rafe and Co must've created lots of burner accounts to defend the mess of a show they created.
Imagine hiring someone who hates the books this thoroughly as showrunner. That's 2023 in a nutshell. Destroy the past, there is only the present.
There is only the present trying to do what the past did but better without creating anything new like the past did.
@@emmanueladama4197 Control the Present so you can rewrite the Past to separate people from their heritage, so that you can control the thoughts and direction of the future.
I loved all of it except Rand should have had a bigger role imo. But if season three makes up for that I forgive it
You'll be saying the same damn thing at the end of season 3, hoping 4 makes up for it.
Sue me, but I think this season was boring, poorly paced television. I didn't read the books. Season 1 made me go out and buy the books because it was so intriguing (haven't read them yet). Season 2 made me want to put the books in a yard sale.
It feels as though they have really downplayed Rand. They give things that are attributed to him in the books to other characters in the show. I haven't decided yet if that sits well with me, but regardless he feels very weak in the show relatively speaking.
Thanks for the interviews! I swear Perrin was written so poorly in this season. How many times do your people have to be endangered for you to finally nut up and do something? Gwen was annoying to. The whole 'losing a life with a lover' plus her overall bratty behaviour was so offputting. They did have their moments tho, and the show overall was still a great watch with those two characters annoying the crap out of me most of the time 😂. Eguaine, Rand, Morraine, Lanfear, Ishmael, God the list goes on, but they were all so enjoyable! Even Morraine's sister and nephew were 🙌. My only real disappoint is that I'll have to wait 2-3 years before a new season comes out. I just might have to read the books, but I love these actors' performances, even the characters who are annoying to me are well acted. So Please pay the actors so we can get more of this sooner rather than later! Great work everyone!
edit: From what I'm reading in the comments it sounds as if the show needs more episodes. I'm not surprised, but I think I will have to try the books again. It sounds like I'm missing a lot.
The only highlights of the series has been when they followed the source material (only a few scenes). This "adaptation" is a hot mess if you've read the books. Just read the books or listen to the audiobooks.
Skybeams and titanic sword duels in the sky are not the same. One is boring and useless, the other awesome and exciting.
Killing two people trying to kill you and killing a man who killed a wolf trying to kill his companion -- while they were fighting slavers -- are not the same. one is self defense, the other is revenge against a (relatively) justified man.
This season was an improvement over S01 still, and could yet improve.
Too bad he didn’t change it so it was good!
RAFF
You didn't read the books, did you!
Disappointed to say the least! Rand is the hero in the books-that was taken from his character in the series.
Well, it's his own damn fault for being born with a penis.
Amazon and their staff screwed this up massively. Obviously, to fit the story to a TV-format they had to axe a lot of material, but then they decided to make up their own stuff and bloat what few episodes they had at their disposal with everything from fake relationships, fake motivations, fake conflict and fake backgrounds.
And it's not even a good series! The first season pretty much sucked and bored me. The. First. Book. In. The. Wheel. Of. Time. Is. NOT. Boring. It's a bestseller and a classic.
They also lost the entire concept that the books is about the realization that each character must work in a team to have chance. Instead, they destroy this important bit of Egwene's story arch while removing the most epic battle in the sky in Falme between Rand and Ishamael. To be replaced by... Egwene? All she needed was a sword and apparently she would've defeated a Forsaken? Jesus.
And they have THE best healer, Nynaeve, on site but instead it's Elayne doing the healing? It's Elayne who learns how to make Ter'Angeral's but they just had to change it to Nynaeve. Whitecloaks running around like a mob, when they're supposed to be an elite military order? And Perrin just walks around sulking all the time. Not to mention what they did to Mat - the story leading up to him blowing the horn of Valere when up against superior enemy armies is gone, so Arthur Hawkwing doesn't get to greet Lews Therrin. Fine. But did they at least focus on the actual main character of this entire series instead? Nope. Rand just gets dragged around without any purpose of his own by various women constantly schooling him.
And poor misunderstood Liandrin, she's just another woman stuck in a tough spot due to men, in this case her fake dying son (she doesn't have a son in the books), which apparently is why she became a Dark Friend!? NO, she's a ruthless character seeking power and wealth due to her poor upbringing. Read the good damn books, and if not, don't pretend you're doing a movie adaptation.
The ENTIRE Damandred family drama with Moiraines sister and nephew is just added crap that these over-woke and horny Hollywood morons bloated the series with. Horny? Yes. Make Lanfear into some BDSM-style character, have Moiraine and Siuan do some bi stuff, Nynaeve and Lan be a thing and the same with Egwene and Rand while also mixing in Perrin? None of it in the books, at least not at this stage.
Logain! He's not even in the books this early in the story, or maybe just mentioned. It's Lanfear who catches another Forsaken who lets Rand train up his skills in the One Power.
And by having the all-of-a-sudden-expert in channeling Lan figuring out that Moiraine isn't stilled but merely shielded by a tied-off shield, they derive Nynaeve from some very cool moments when she develops her super healing techniques. Just binned that entire thing.
Lanfear. Just walking around in the city putting it on fire, casually. In the books, the Forsaken were scared of showing themselves and went to great lengths to hide.
Moiraine struggles to destroy the Trollocs in Two Rivers, but seem to have no problem at all to destroy the entire Forerunner fleet of the Seanchan.
Someone said that this is NOT a movie adaption, even though Amazon claims it is. In that case agenda driving monstrosity is either: 1. A tv-series set in the Wheel Of Time universe, like some movies are "inspired by real events" only to not care much about those actual events. Or: 2: An adaption completely void of the original story except for names of characters and places, and the team making it thinking they can do a better job than the original writer and just re-write the entire thing.
Tbh, both can be somewhat true at the same time, but none of it makes for any excuses. No one who has read the books and in their right mind can defend this utter stupidity and deranged preaching distortion that claims to be somewhat it isn't.
God damm it.
They are missing MOMENTS. there are BIG themes that the show creaters are unnessessarily changing and I cant see the characters becoming what they are meant to be. It seems like the show is inspired by the wheel of time and not the WHEEL of TIME. Rand winning the sword fight against the seanchan lord is a big deal... they removed it. I'm not impressed. they did get the overall visuals right. Trolics look great.
I really wanted to see Rand vs Turak and those long nails.
Rafe's bias towards Egwene is hurting Rand's development and show of strength. He is (I hope) inadvertently undermining Rand by giving Egwene all the episode 8 hero moments.
I am hoping Rand will get more big moments in S3.