Respect and enjoy the peace, and also the Pace. The Cleons are the best non-book thing the show added and it's almost hard to imagine what the show would be like without the Genetic Dynasty at this point. Let me know what you think.
I'm actually surprised it's not as it fits in perfectly and really sells the arrogance and hubris of Empire. I love it when the answer to a production problem like "how do we keep the same actors for the entire series when it span several millennia?" fits perfectly within the story itself and actually makes it better. Regenerations on Doctor Who are the answer to a similar question (albeit reversed), and it's hard to imagine the show without them.
Lee Pace IS Empire. His casting and his embodiment of Day, and the truth depth he brings to every iteration of him is one of my favorite aspects of this show. Exceptional casting is a true understatement.
yeah, watching that naked sword fight in episode one had me like, "Yup, I believe you could be the god emperor of mankind." damn, such a good actor with so much presence
I was so surprised to find out that the Genetic Dynasty is an entirely original creation by the showrunner(s). The Genetic Dynasty and Empire parts of the show are so captivating. Every episode I eagerly await for their arcs.
So, here's what happened: Apple bent over at the waist, spread its ass cheeks, and gleefully sprayed the Foundation Trilogy with a firehose of soupy, chunky, blood-speckled, puss-filled diarrhea from its hemorrhoidal, fissure-laced, suppurating asshole. They should have simply - instead - exhumed Asimov and reburied him in a remote public park's septic pit so random strangers can shit on his corpse for a few decades. It would have been more respectful.
@@PtolemyCeasarcan attest this is accurate😹 Some of my favorite memories was my Da reading to me since I can remember, his collection of favorite Science fiction series. We’d discuss after each couple chapter of the books, and meanings. Of course I didn’t always fully grasp due to age, but as I got older and would return I just fell more in love with these worlds. He never feared introducing me to stories that may be out of my comprehension at the time. We’d even go to the waffle house where George rr Martin would meet with his friends each weekend to help each other with their stories in fact, and now he lives a block away from me😻🫶🏻 I’d never fathom bothering him, but I’d be lying if I didn’t confess to every time I went out and about I crossed paws that we may organically bump into one another lol ✨🖤✨
There are times I think the show should be named “Keeping up with the Cleons”. This part of the story is so good that sometimes I’m more invested in it than all the Foundation stuff. Definitely a proof that when done right, some liberties with the source material can be taken.
They did not "take liberties" with Asimov's great work. They simple stole the title and wrote a tedious soap opera to gather ratings from the lower half of the intellectual spectrum.
can be, but if you are taking in the show as 'Keeping up with the Cleons", which the source material is not at all about, then this should suggest to you that you are not experiencing the original story. Im sure its a good story. It sounds like it. But it doesn't sound like its the same story.
@@homelessrobot I dont know why but the actual "Foundation" part of the series is kind of boring to me and too magical and unrealistic...Idk how it is in the books, maybe its more fleshed out or characters are just not intresting in both.
@@0912sooli well, when the best thing about the adaptation is not present in the source material, there are 2 possibilities: Either A) the screen-writers at Apple are that much better than Isaac Asimov, or B) they fucked up the source material beyond recognition.
It's truly beautiful how the genetic dynasty, although not itself the cause, perfectly symbolizes and personifies the stagnation of the Galactic Empire.
On the name Cleon: As a Greek, I thought that Cleon was a reference to the Greek name "Cleon" (used in antiquity, Cleon was an Athenian General) - and the word cleos/kleos, which means glory in Greek. Further, cleos in ancient Greece was a hereditary property, meaning that it was considered bestowed by father to son and it was the son's duty to prove worthy of his cleos. Not only is it an anagram of clone, but the word and the name is charged with so many concepts that reflect the Cleonic dynasty. It is really amazing that this was not in the original trilogy, but an invention of the series!
Honestly if it weren't for the genetic dynasty I probably wouldn't be as invested as I am right now. It adds to that's dystopian feel of an all mighty ruler. Everybody you know and will ever know can only speak of one leader.
I agree that this is the best part of the show. The best part of the show is not in the books which shows the wrong people made this show. The writers are clearly more interested in telling "original stories" than adapting the existing books.
@clarkkent7973 sometimes books don't translate smoothly to television or movies without adjustment. What flows well in book form might need help to be a successful series. Looks like they made changes to help with the long passage of time that this covers. They did pretty well imo.
So, here's what happened: Apple bent over at the waist, spread its ass cheeks, and gleefully sprayed the Foundation Trilogy with a firehose of soupy, chunky, blood-speckled, puss-filled diarrhea from its hemorrhoidal, fissure-laced, suppurating asshole. They should have simply - instead - exhumed Asimov and reburied him in a remote public park's septic pit so random strangers can shit on his corpse for a few decades. It would have been more respectful.
Cleon the 13th is my absolute fav Cleon. Sure he is ruthless and ambitious. He is not cruel, has the best character development, wants to be a real human. His whole arc is sad and mesmerizing.
A genetic dynasty of Emperors is the ultimate narcissism. I like how the existence of the dynasty captures the internal decay of a seemingly perfect and all-powerful empire. Institutional narcissism is most often the core of declining countries here in Earth, Ultimately the invention of the Dynasty by the showrunners is doing a great homage to the Book Series.
I like how the creation of the clones shows the stagnation occurring across the Empire. The clones aren't able to invent anything new. Nor can they suggest new fields of interest. Their minds are limited by what the original Cleon knew and experienced. By the second season we can see how the scientists of the Foundation have created knew methods of hyper space travel and moved beyond the Empire.
Great homage, indeed. The only greater homage I could imagine would be not maliciously butchering the source material beyond recognition - but the genetic dynasty is a close second.
Yeah, this cloning thing was something Jeffrey Epstein was working on at Zorro Ranch. God that sounds so disturbing to say, but it's true. The more you learn about JE, the more unbelievable it sounds.
the genetic dynasty was such a fantastic addition to Foundation, it genuinely added so much to the story and made the universe feel so much more lived in
I have no idea what the books are like but to me this is by far the most fascinating concept in the entire show. having a mechanism in place to cheat mortality in order to rule a galactic empire is so intriguing. Then adding an immortal AI as a fail safe!. Clever way to rule time and space. Day plays the character very well.
For a show that I think eviscerates the source material it's telling that I think Lee Pace is absolutely amazing as Cleon and the Cleons are 95% of the reason I'll probably keep watching the show. Even more amazing when you know they don't exist in the books and the Emperor is pretty much a side character.
The longer this show goes on, the more obvious it becomes that the showrunners don't really care about the source material. I think of it as something akin to "Joker" where the producers just draped a Taxi Driver-esque character drama in a comic book guise in order to get name recognition and backing from a major studio.
@@Schlabbeflicker Source material however good it is, would be boring if it was 1 to 1 recreation on the screen. It would be a lot of people talking in closed rooms. In book space it is amazing, but watching it as show would get boring real quick.
I've said it before: Asimov doesn't write stories. He has a story as an excuse to explore a concept and play with an idea. As a big-big-big fan of the books, I'm still amazed by the show, and how they're still able to change the details of the story completely, but keep the spirit of exploring the ideas present in the original work, updating them to work with modern audiences, and manage to keep everything fresh, while retroactively integrating all of the material from the original series. It's absurd how well they manage to pull it off. And, this is just the best example of that whole process.
Agreed. Foundation is a big ideas book not a character book. The characters a just there to push the story forward before they die off. Even Seldon himself is dead by page 30 of book 1.
A big budget episodic show was always going to be more character driven.. which is fine, adaptations are made to change things.. but I kind of wish they played more with the scifi concept of psychohistory. Just the general idea of it, big numbers of people reacting in predictable ways… as long as they don’t know about it. Cleon for instance knows about psychohistory, so it shouldn’t be able to predict his actions… but seems to anyway. I think there’s going to be a plot point where the current Day intentionally acts contrary to Haris predictions.. I certainly hope so anyway. And I really hope they make the Mule a 1 in 100 trillion genetic freak, so that he can truly be a threat to psychohistory by acting outside it as a true anomaly.
@@eeyun5279 later on, it's revealed that the Mule isn't a genetic freak, but... [spoilers for the later books that deal with the search for Earth ahead] ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... an *_exile_* of an experiment that a certain robot created to create a 'hive mind' of humanity.
I never read the books but I like this show so much! Exactly what I needed to finally fill the GoT void. And Lee Paces's performance is simply unforgettable.
It's hard to pick which of those two shows more utterly ruins the source material between GoT & Foundation... it would have been far better if they hadn't ruined Foundation to instead create something new to the Cleonic Dynasty in. That's the only good thing in the show and it's not Foundation at all
The actors alone are doing great job too(lee pace is epic). Just like the actors of The Expanse. Great show. Not best scifi that still goes to the Expanse but good enough (wish the Expanse is rebooted as its 2yr contract by prime ends soon). Not to mention the sheer quality of visuals & audio especially the episode 6 audio was best ever.
I plan on it. They’re has just been a lot of hints that we'll be learning about her history in episode 9. Wanted to wait so I could make it comprehensive.
With the episode in season 1 with the maden planet and him not having a vision I’ve always liked the idea that seeing nothing was the vision, seeing nothing was meant to be a challenge to him to do better.
Having NOT read the book (by choice) when I heard this was going to be a series (didn't want to have any expectations going in) I am absolutely LOVING this series (my opinion) and this video does help me make the decision to read the books easier. It sounds like the source material won't exactly provide a ton of "spoilers" for the series, but could add to the world building. Thank you for your insights and work!
@@pikadasgalaxias306 but somehow, unlike all the other hollywood re-writes of old properties it works pretty well for the show and I dont mind most of the changes, though the whole planet of telepaths thing was a bit of a left field for me
One thing I've noticed is that the "It's not like the book" people have disappeared. I think by now, enough of them acquiesced and watched the show and actually enjoyed it (who wouldn't?). I think they realized as I did when season one came out that the original source is just way too abstract to be a practical TV series. Since TV is such a different medium, liberties had to be taken to make it something that people will actually enjoy watching. The Genetic Dynasty is one such liberty that was so well conceived and written, it's hard to imagine the show without it. It's a perfect way to realistically maintain a character over hundreds or even thousands of years.
They may have become quieter here, but there are several of them still trying to bomb the overall rating of the show by submitting pointless 1/10-star "reviews" on IMDB (and probably other sites). Petty immaturity on display.
Don't get me wrong, I like the show, but to me it has little more than familiar names and settings in common with the original. Foundation the books are all about how the individual has little to no bearing on the course of events, as he is powerless against societal forces. Foundation the TV show follows individuals that have transcended death (a genetic dynasty, a computer replica, an hibernating time skipper, an immortal robot, and a reincarnated psychic) and want to steer the galaxy.
"I think they realized as I did when season one came out that the original source is just way too abstract to be a practical TV series." - Imagine if Black Mirror didn't have a core cast of reoccurring characters. Who would even watch it. Cannot be done. "I think by now, enough of them acquiesced and watched the show and actually enjoyed it (who wouldn't?)." - Or maybe they were over it by the end of S1 and are no longer keeping up with Apple's escapades. A franchise dies when the target audience become apathetic - so the lack of angry fans is not necessarily the win you think it is.
I don’t see clones being any inferior than the original. Each clone is an individual, fully capable of making all decisions. The inferiority is purely psychological.
And it's in the 2 prequel books that Hari Sheldon was first introduced. The show has done a masterful adaptation of the books and creating the Cleon trilogy helps ground the history of the Empire
I've watched a couple of other short pieces on Foundation but the concept never really gripped me. Those touched on the show but were mostly explaining the books. This has been very different an very interesting.
I'm a big Asimov fan, and have loved the Trantor story in season 1. The genetic dynasty, as you state, has contributed much, and was the best storyline of season 1. And I have been simply astounded by Lee Pace's acting skills, and his range - an actor I had not been familiar with until I watched the show. But the other Trantor actors have been marvelous as well. I'm wondering how long the series can HAVE a Brother Day around. Goyer has said until season 4, when we will see the taking of Trantor, if they are renewed. I am also enjoying the other story lines of season 2, and can only pray the show gets renewed - it is genuinely worth it.
I love these Foundation explanation videos. I LOVE the series and _REALLY_ hope it goes the distance lol but it’s so, so, so deep and complex with so many moving pieces that it’s hard to follow sometimes. I _definitely_ do not want the creators to ever change that though. I love that there’s so much going on that I can still be entertained by following up with these kinds of videos. I know, I’m weird.
I'm so glad Edo Demerzel is in the series, I figured they would have been taken out considering Edo wasn't in the original Foundation novels but the latter-written prequel.
Well done, Pete. I only wish they provided more hints on who were really responsible for the Star-Bridge destruction. A one-and-done attack on empire just leaves us hanging. It’s subtle but clear Demerzel is playing a long endgame.
Yes, I noticed that Cleon is an anagram for clone too, I wonder which writer came up wit the idea to make Cleon a clone whether they thought of it because of the anagram? The Cleonic dynasty is one of the most interesting aspects of this show, even if it wasn't part of the original books. I bet Asimov himself would've approved, if he hadn't come up with the idea himself. They also seem to be borrowing a lot of ideas from Dune, such as having an emperor that's nearly immortal, such as God Emperor Leto. But the fact that the Cleons are only immortal serially, allows for variations in characteristics that perhaps a truly immortal god emperor wouldn't have. The Cleons are evolving.
When they reviewed the source material in the writers room while developing the show and came upon the few mentions of an Emperor Cleon, one of the writers probably mistyped "Cleon" as "Clone" (auto correct?) which very well may have given them the idea how to tackle the Empire part over several centuries with the same three to five actors. That's my personal head canon at least.
@berlindude75 - Honestly, that probably really is how it happened. Maybe it was part of Asimov's plan all along. Maybe he was a real psychohistorian! (Okay, psychohistory doesn't actually work that way, but still...)
Definitely a clever way to weave in the source material in a totally fresh approach. I also think Asimov would have approved. Just like the French author of ‘Planet of the Apes’ wished he’d thought of the twist at the end of the Heston movie.
Pete really top notch dive into the Cleon’s! I really appreciate that your videos are careful to not mention book spoilers, as I’m encountering the Foundation series for the first time via AppleTV+
Excellent summary. As to the latest Empire developments, I am still somewhat stunned that there are no safeguards in this 400-year old clone system against a Brother Day deciding to end it all through marriage on a whim. Naturally, you'd think that Demerzel is the safeguard -- that is, unless she is complicit in its demise (which, however, seems contrary to the flashback scenes of her and Cleon the First in S1).
Read the books 50 years ago. Have to admit I could not see how this could be adapted to film. But lets face it its very well done and interesting. Goyer did it perfectly .
I would have instituted protocols for inevitable change, meaning we cant expect the Genetic dynasty to last forever, so when things do drift there will be guidelines that will be introduced that will shape the next phase of the dynasty
Thank you for always putting out the content. Helps me to understand things about the show that i didnt know before. I always eagerly wait for your vids so thank you on fresh take on these scenes and conversations and relationships 😊
Yes the Cleons are the most interesting element that wasn't in the books. I'd like to see if one or some of them would become the ultimate villains. I like the Game of Throney vibes from them
It's such a great way of staging the show, keeping the story personal over hundreds of years, but the idea isn't completely orginal. In his 1975 book 'Imperial Earth' Arthur C Clarke writes about Titan being ruled by 3 clones of different generations. I'm not sure if the showrunners came up the the idea independantly or borrowed it from this book (the Novel is definietly worth a read for SF lovers)
Thank you, Pete. Immensely useful and enjoyable. Highly recommend for fans of the show. I didn't spend the time retracing all the Cleons. Your effort here greatly improves my understanding and appreciation for the show. Again, thank you. Keep up the great work, brother. Peace.
great recaps. just about to read forward the foundation. I am glued to the tv show though. The quality of production and writing Goyer has given in his interpretation has exceeded anything I could have hoped for.
Lee Pace as Brother Day has the same lighthouse performamce within this show like Anthony Starr hits it out of the park as Homelander in "The Boys". Damn do I want to see them together in a show or a movie!
The Empire in the series is absolutely fascinating. It's so well done, and I think it builds a great bridge from the sentiment of the Robot series to Foundation series in the books. It was all about the decay and stagnation, on the side of Spacers as well as people on Earth. And the cycle repeats itself here and ***SPOILERS FOR THE BOOKS*** . . . . Demerzel, aka Daneel, has to watch this happen over and over again. I think about it often, the way Demerzel has to carry that knowledge, that lesson, into a new age. And how many new ages have there been already. After all, Elijah Bailey's final words about the importance of humanity as a whole were a huge accelerator to Daneel's consciousness and choices to help humanity keep on living - and live a better life. I think about this so often, and especially when watching the episodes. I really like the way Foundation series went about this. I hope we get to see even more.
Thank you for your recaps and summaries, it really helped to get me through S1. I can't be the only one who is fast forwarding through all the foundation parts of the show (and it was really easy to do as well with the two storylines completely separate for now). I'm curious if that will change in S2 but so far I'm only interested in the Empire side of the story.
@Pete Peppers - I am making this post a few days after you posted this video, and I must say its fantastic! Foundation is hands down my new favorite tv show by far!! It doesnt seem like any other UA-camrs have decided to make content like this beyond yourself and I am grateful for it!! I even showed up to watch your Mid-Season discussion the other day and that was amazing also! Since you seem to be leading the charge on UA-cam with this show, I am hoping that you will continue to give it the attention and priority it deserves by continuing to do so! Really I can seem to get enough of Foundation content, be it from Apple or from yourself on UA-cam itself. I suppose I should subscribe to your channel now (done) so that I can continue to watch your content. Raised by Wolves was my favorite show up until the surprise by the makers of the show who in their misplaced wisdom cancelled it. I would hate for Foundation to receive that same treatment. I for one will be looking for more Foundation Content on your channel!! I will keep my eyes peeled for it since I dont like notifications. Thank you for your efforts on this one and please keep going strong with Foundation!!
Great work! I hope I don't sound crazy but your break downs are so good and I am so busy that some times I skip episodes and watch your break downs instead. Thank you and please keep them coming. :-)
Goyer’s Foundation isn’t Asimov’s Foundation. It’s not an adaptation, and it’s so different that calling it “inspired by the works of Isaac Asimov” still feels like a stretch. Maybe it truly is impossible to bring this seminal work of science fiction into another medium, but other shows could still do a hell of a lot better job than this.
These are really great; I'm happy I found them. It's quite the show to completely absorb and your summaries (and connections) make it a much better and satisfying experience. They've definitely made Foundation one of my favourite shows in the last few years. We'll see if the (currently striking) writers can keep it going! Kudos to them so far. I haven't read the books, but from what I can gather, even though the show is significantly different, it's merely an altered clone (if you will :) ) that stands up on its own.
Watching this excellent video essay highlights how spectacular this production looks and the thought, effort and money which has gone into its creation.
Foundation is one of the best adaptations i have seen, it just really goes to show what good wrting looks like, and OhBoy am i looking forward to learning more about demerzel, we are not seeing the whole picture yet. thanks for the surprise mid week video pete,
What if Demerzel is behind the corruption of the genetic dynasty? After hearing Harri’s prediction that eliminating the genetic dynasty will postpone the fall of the galactic empire, maybe she decided that this was the best way to preserve the dynasty.
@@dalazul9711She could by law zero break others, so if she think the genetic dynatie to be essential for humanity survival she could. ’’loyal to the empire’’ maye her law are alterated. Or a trick, she only see the genetic clones as true humans, with the genetic drift this can bring a big problem if they reach the point she didnt see them as true human.
I'm glad you're okay with the book changes. So many people get upset that a book turned into a TV series or movie ends up 'wrong' in their opinion. Its two different mediums, rarely can you actually get it to translate well (and even then, you have to have the right people doing it - see Good Omens). But with Foundation being a series of stories and novels, written decades ago, and the creator no longer with us, we have to just enjoy what these showrunner and writers are giving us. I think they are paying great homage to the books, with their changes actually working out for the best. We get better understanding of characters, settings, different time periods. And the Genetic Dynasty is an amazing addition. Plus it prevents the whole 'oh hey everyone in your family resembles you' trope that happens in a lot of shows that utilize the same actor to portray different characters within a family. Plus Pace. C'mon man. Look at him!
It's fucking awful and a travesty to pretend that this show is actually Foundation... the best part and only redeeming thing in the show is the Cleonic Dynasty & that has nothing to do with Foundation series. Ruining Foundation just makes the show bad since all the parts devoted to doing that is taking away from the far more interesting dynamics of Cleon/Empire that the showrunners have created.
I want a coffee table book about Trantor, presenting the planet as an exotic tourist destination in the retro-futuristic style of the 60s. Pages of detailed cutaways of the palace, the star bridge (or whatever it was called), the zoological gardens, and the many levels where the citizens live. Not corny like the Jetsons, but that generally optimistic 50s-60s mid century modern style and tone in the art and the writing. That would be so awesome! There could be an appendix with a handful of other worlds in the empire, each of them very different.
Respect and enjoy the peace, and also the Pace. The Cleons are the best non-book thing the show added and it's almost hard to imagine what the show would be like without the Genetic Dynasty at this point. Let me know what you think.
Yep, definitely the best change the series has made. Very much in the tone and spirit of the books.
I'm actually surprised it's not as it fits in perfectly and really sells the arrogance and hubris of Empire.
I love it when the answer to a production problem like "how do we keep the same actors for the entire series when it span several millennia?" fits perfectly within the story itself and actually makes it better.
Regenerations on Doctor Who are the answer to a similar question (albeit reversed), and it's hard to imagine the show without them.
Wait Cleons / genetic dynasty isn’t in the books? That’s insane it’s essentially the cornerstone of the show
I think they call them Exponents? Or did i get it wrong
IA wholeheartedly. Fighting against oneself literally is just fascinating as all hell!
Lee Pace IS Empire. His casting and his embodiment of Day, and the truth depth he brings to every iteration of him is one of my favorite aspects of this show. Exceptional casting is a true understatement.
yeah, watching that naked sword fight in episode one had me like, "Yup, I believe you could be the god emperor of mankind." damn, such a good actor with so much presence
@@Sam-ey2ns I felt the same way.
He keeps surprising me somehow too. special stuff
@@Sam-ey2nsmakes a mighty fine pie too!
The Pie Maker regins supreme.
I was so surprised to find out that the Genetic Dynasty is an entirely original creation by the showrunner(s). The Genetic Dynasty and Empire parts of the show are so captivating. Every episode I eagerly await for their arcs.
definitely added a dimension that would have been missing in a stricter adaptation
yeah it’s actually the most fascinating part of the show imo
Asimov is like crack to a young mind.
So, here's what happened: Apple bent over at the waist, spread its ass cheeks, and gleefully sprayed the Foundation Trilogy with a firehose of soupy, chunky, blood-speckled, puss-filled diarrhea from its hemorrhoidal, fissure-laced, suppurating asshole.
They should have simply - instead - exhumed Asimov and reburied him in a remote public park's septic pit so random strangers can shit on his corpse for a few decades. It would have been more respectful.
@@PtolemyCeasarcan attest this is accurate😹 Some of my favorite memories was my Da reading to me since I can remember, his collection of favorite Science fiction series. We’d discuss after each couple chapter of the books, and meanings. Of course I didn’t always fully grasp due to age, but as I got older and would return I just fell more in love with these worlds. He never feared introducing me to stories that may be out of my comprehension at the time.
We’d even go to the waffle house where George rr Martin would meet with his friends each weekend to help each other with their stories in fact, and now he lives a block away from me😻🫶🏻 I’d never fathom bothering him, but I’d be lying if I didn’t confess to every time I went out and about I crossed paws that we may organically bump into one another lol ✨🖤✨
Man... Lee Pace is beautiful. I watched for him, and I wasn't disappointed at all.
There are times I think the show should be named “Keeping up with the Cleons”. This part of the story is so good that sometimes I’m more invested in it than all the Foundation stuff. Definitely a proof that when done right, some liberties with the source material can be taken.
They did not "take liberties" with Asimov's great work. They simple stole the title and wrote a tedious soap opera to gather ratings from the lower half of the intellectual spectrum.
can be, but if you are taking in the show as 'Keeping up with the Cleons", which the source material is not at all about, then this should suggest to you that you are not experiencing the original story. Im sure its a good story. It sounds like it. But it doesn't sound like its the same story.
Some?
@@homelessrobot I dont know why but the actual "Foundation" part of the series is kind of boring to me and too magical and unrealistic...Idk how it is in the books, maybe its more fleshed out or characters are just not intresting in both.
@@0912sooli well, when the best thing about the adaptation is not present in the source material, there are 2 possibilities:
Either A) the screen-writers at Apple are that much better than Isaac Asimov, or B) they fucked up the source material beyond recognition.
It's truly beautiful how the genetic dynasty, although not itself the cause, perfectly symbolizes and personifies the stagnation of the Galactic Empire.
On the name Cleon: As a Greek, I thought that Cleon was a reference to the Greek name "Cleon" (used in antiquity, Cleon was an Athenian General) - and the word cleos/kleos, which means glory in Greek. Further, cleos in ancient Greece was a hereditary property, meaning that it was considered bestowed by father to son and it was the son's duty to prove worthy of his cleos. Not only is it an anagram of clone, but the word and the name is charged with so many concepts that reflect the Cleonic dynasty. It is really amazing that this was not in the original trilogy, but an invention of the series!
Honestly if it weren't for the genetic dynasty I probably wouldn't be as invested as I am right now. It adds to that's dystopian feel of an all mighty ruler. Everybody you know and will ever know can only speak of one leader.
one of my absolute favorite aspects of the entire show!!! love the cleons!!! David Goyer and his team hit a home run with this one
Pretty ingenius!
I agree that this is the best part of the show. The best part of the show is not in the books which shows the wrong people made this show. The writers are clearly more interested in telling "original stories" than adapting the existing books.
@clarkkent7973 sometimes books don't translate smoothly to television or movies without adjustment. What flows well in book form might need help to be a successful series. Looks like they made changes to help with the long passage of time that this covers. They did pretty well imo.
So, here's what happened: Apple bent over at the waist, spread its ass cheeks, and gleefully sprayed the Foundation Trilogy with a firehose of soupy, chunky, blood-speckled, puss-filled diarrhea from its hemorrhoidal, fissure-laced, suppurating asshole.
They should have simply - instead - exhumed Asimov and reburied him in a remote public park's septic pit so random strangers can shit on his corpse for a few decades. It would have been more respectful.
first time I can think of where the show adds something better than the books. The genetic dynasty is the most interesting part of the story for me.
The Genetic Dinasty is the best part of the whole show. I would watch an entire show just about their palace intrigue and that decandent court ❤
I like cheap soap operas especially if they have spaceships...
The attention to detail on this show is top notch. I hope it doesn’t get canceled by the executive overlord genetic dynasty.
I think the executives have suddenly realised they've got a hit on their hands with an attentive audience.
Ironing is such an appropriate description right now !
Hollywood must be like living in a Phillip K Dick short story right now.
( apologies, I meant Irony ) lol !
Seriously?
Have you read the books???
Cleon the 13th is my absolute fav Cleon. Sure he is ruthless and ambitious. He is not cruel, has the best character development, wants to be a real human. His whole arc is sad and mesmerizing.
Yep.
He's sympathetic as well as ruthless.
It's upsetting to discover that many of his subjects don't think he's a real boy.
What he did to Halima and Demerzel was absolutely cruel
@@PetePeppers1 What Azura did to his 'son' was worse.
A genetic dynasty of Emperors is the ultimate narcissism. I like how the existence of the dynasty captures the internal decay of a seemingly perfect and all-powerful empire. Institutional narcissism is most often the core of declining countries here in Earth, Ultimately the invention of the Dynasty by the showrunners is doing a great homage to the Book Series.
I like how the creation of the clones shows the stagnation occurring across the Empire. The clones aren't able to invent anything new. Nor can they suggest new fields of interest. Their minds are limited by what the original Cleon knew and experienced. By the second season we can see how the scientists of the Foundation have created knew methods of hyper space travel and moved beyond the Empire.
Great homage, indeed.
The only greater homage I could imagine would be not maliciously butchering the source material beyond recognition - but the genetic dynasty is a close second.
Yeah, this cloning thing was something Jeffrey Epstein was working on at Zorro Ranch. God that sounds so disturbing to say, but it's true. The more you learn about JE, the more unbelievable it sounds.
the genetic dynasty was such a fantastic addition to Foundation, it genuinely added so much to the story and made the universe feel so much more lived in
I have no idea what the books are like but to me this is by far the most fascinating concept in the entire show. having a mechanism in place to cheat mortality in order to rule a galactic empire is so intriguing. Then adding an immortal AI as a fail safe!. Clever way to rule time and space. Day plays the character very well.
For a show that I think eviscerates the source material it's telling that I think Lee Pace is absolutely amazing as Cleon and the Cleons are 95% of the reason I'll probably keep watching the show. Even more amazing when you know they don't exist in the books and the Emperor is pretty much a side character.
The longer this show goes on, the more obvious it becomes that the showrunners don't really care about the source material. I think of it as something akin to "Joker" where the producers just draped a Taxi Driver-esque character drama in a comic book guise in order to get name recognition and backing from a major studio.
@@Schlabbeflicker Source material however good it is, would be boring if it was 1 to 1 recreation on the screen. It would be a lot of people talking in closed rooms. In book space it is amazing, but watching it as show would get boring real quick.
I've said it before: Asimov doesn't write stories. He has a story as an excuse to explore a concept and play with an idea.
As a big-big-big fan of the books, I'm still amazed by the show, and how they're still able to change the details of the story completely, but keep the spirit of exploring the ideas present in the original work, updating them to work with modern audiences, and manage to keep everything fresh, while retroactively integrating all of the material from the original series. It's absurd how well they manage to pull it off. And, this is just the best example of that whole process.
Agreed. Foundation is a big ideas book not a character book. The characters a just there to push the story forward before they die off. Even Seldon himself is dead by page 30 of book 1.
A big budget episodic show was always going to be more character driven.. which is fine, adaptations are made to change things.. but I kind of wish they played more with the scifi concept of psychohistory.
Just the general idea of it, big numbers of people reacting in predictable ways… as long as they don’t know about it. Cleon for instance knows about psychohistory, so it shouldn’t be able to predict his actions… but seems to anyway.
I think there’s going to be a plot point where the current Day intentionally acts contrary to Haris predictions.. I certainly hope so anyway.
And I really hope they make the Mule a 1 in 100 trillion genetic freak, so that he can truly be a threat to psychohistory by acting outside it as a true anomaly.
@@eeyun5279 later on, it's revealed that the Mule isn't a genetic freak, but...
[spoilers for the later books that deal with the search for Earth ahead]
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... an *_exile_* of an experiment that a certain robot created to create a 'hive mind' of humanity.
I would absolutely love a spinoff show about the Cleons and/or Dermerzel
Goyer mentioned pitching the idea for a robot era show to fill in more of Demerzel's history.
@@PetePeppers1 i really hope so 🙏🏼🙏🏼
@@PetePeppers1I sure hope so, Laura Birn is fantastic as Demerzel.
@@PetePeppers1
I'm certainly up for a Demerzal origin story.
He talks about it in the interview he did with Bald Move baldmove.com/foundation/foundation-s02-david-s-goyer-interview/
The Cleon story thread is the main reason why I watch this series.
The three actors, especially Lee Pace, did an excellent job acting the same yet different person.
Seconded.
He definitely had help on the spiral, that Old man and the gem saved his life. He was saved by faith, just not his own. MVP The Old man on the Spiral.
I never read the books but I like this show so much! Exactly what I needed to finally fill the GoT void. And Lee Paces's performance is simply unforgettable.
It's hard to pick which of those two shows more utterly ruins the source material between GoT & Foundation... it would have been far better if they hadn't ruined Foundation to instead create something new to the Cleonic Dynasty in. That's the only good thing in the show and it's not Foundation at all
The actors alone are doing great job too(lee pace is epic). Just like the actors of The Expanse. Great show. Not best scifi that still goes to the Expanse but good enough (wish the Expanse is rebooted as its 2yr contract by prime ends soon).
Not to mention the sheer quality of visuals & audio especially the episode 6 audio was best ever.
Please make a video about Demerzel. She's one the most captivating character in the show
I plan on it. They’re has just been a lot of hints that we'll be learning about her history in episode 9. Wanted to wait so I could make it comprehensive.
With the episode in season 1 with the maden planet and him not having a vision I’ve always liked the idea that seeing nothing was the vision, seeing nothing was meant to be a challenge to him to do better.
Ending the breakdown with the freeze frame of Brother Day is just *chef’s kiss*
I love how in every image of power, centered on Empire, there is Demerzel on the side. This symbolism is really important.
I think they explore the genetic dynasty idea on many keveles, really well. Very intriguing
Having NOT read the book (by choice) when I heard this was going to be a series (didn't want to have any expectations going in) I am absolutely LOVING this series (my opinion) and this video does help me make the decision to read the books easier. It sounds like the source material won't exactly provide a ton of "spoilers" for the series, but could add to the world building.
Thank you for your insights and work!
Don't worry about book spoilers. The series and the books are barely related.
You can just choose a random book from the library and it will be as closely related to the actual story as Apple's shitty series.
@@Abmotsad It is so shitty that you bothered to reply of comment on a video made made in the second season running of the show.
@@pikadasgalaxias306 but somehow, unlike all the other hollywood re-writes of old properties it works pretty well for the show and I dont mind most of the changes, though the whole planet of telepaths thing was a bit of a left field for me
One thing I've noticed is that the "It's not like the book" people have disappeared. I think by now, enough of them acquiesced and watched the show and actually enjoyed it (who wouldn't?). I think they realized as I did when season one came out that the original source is just way too abstract to be a practical TV series. Since TV is such a different medium, liberties had to be taken to make it something that people will actually enjoy watching. The Genetic Dynasty is one such liberty that was so well conceived and written, it's hard to imagine the show without it. It's a perfect way to realistically maintain a character over hundreds or even thousands of years.
They may have become quieter here, but there are several of them still trying to bomb the overall rating of the show by submitting pointless 1/10-star "reviews" on IMDB (and probably other sites). Petty immaturity on display.
Don't get me wrong, I like the show, but to me it has little more than familiar names and settings in common with the original. Foundation the books are all about how the individual has little to no bearing on the course of events, as he is powerless against societal forces. Foundation the TV show follows individuals that have transcended death (a genetic dynasty, a computer replica, an hibernating time skipper, an immortal robot, and a reincarnated psychic) and want to steer the galaxy.
"I think they realized as I did when season one came out that the original source is just way too abstract to be a practical TV series." - Imagine if Black Mirror didn't have a core cast of reoccurring characters. Who would even watch it. Cannot be done.
"I think by now, enough of them acquiesced and watched the show and actually enjoyed it (who wouldn't?)." - Or maybe they were over it by the end of S1 and are no longer keeping up with Apple's escapades. A franchise dies when the target audience become apathetic - so the lack of angry fans is not necessarily the win you think it is.
I don’t see clones being any inferior than the original. Each clone is an individual, fully capable of making all decisions. The inferiority is purely psychological.
And it's in the 2 prequel books that Hari Sheldon was first introduced. The show has done a masterful adaptation of the books and creating the Cleon trilogy helps ground the history of the Empire
I've watched a couple of other short pieces on Foundation but the concept never really gripped me. Those touched on the show but were mostly explaining the books. This has been very different an very interesting.
I'm a big Asimov fan, and have loved the Trantor story in season 1. The genetic dynasty, as you state, has contributed much, and was the best storyline of season 1. And I have been simply astounded by Lee Pace's acting skills, and his range - an actor I had not been familiar with until I watched the show. But the other Trantor actors have been marvelous as well. I'm wondering how long the series can HAVE a Brother Day around. Goyer has said until season 4, when we will see the taking of Trantor, if they are renewed. I am also enjoying the other story lines of season 2, and can only pray the show gets renewed - it is genuinely worth it.
If you like Lee Pace, you should try watching the series HALT AND CATCH FIRE.
I love these Foundation explanation videos. I LOVE the series and _REALLY_ hope it goes the distance lol but it’s so, so, so deep and complex with so many moving pieces that it’s hard to follow sometimes. I _definitely_ do not want the creators to ever change that though. I love that there’s so much going on that I can still be entertained by following up with these kinds of videos. I know, I’m weird.
you are not alone in your weirdness brother
@@joso7228 Thank you friend! It’s nice to know others actually share that opinion lol
Never watch the expanse or battlestar galactica 😅 you will literally melt
I'm so glad Edo Demerzel is in the series, I figured they would have been taken out considering Edo wasn't in the original Foundation novels but the latter-written prequel.
Well done, Pete. I only wish they provided more hints on who were really responsible for the Star-Bridge destruction. A one-and-done attack on empire just leaves us hanging. It’s subtle but clear Demerzel is playing a long endgame.
Best show around right now. Love it
Yes, I noticed that Cleon is an anagram for clone too, I wonder which writer came up wit the idea to make Cleon a clone whether they thought of it because of the anagram? The Cleonic dynasty is one of the most interesting aspects of this show, even if it wasn't part of the original books. I bet Asimov himself would've approved, if he hadn't come up with the idea himself. They also seem to be borrowing a lot of ideas from Dune, such as having an emperor that's nearly immortal, such as God Emperor Leto. But the fact that the Cleons are only immortal serially, allows for variations in characteristics that perhaps a truly immortal god emperor wouldn't have. The Cleons are evolving.
When they reviewed the source material in the writers room while developing the show and came upon the few mentions of an Emperor Cleon, one of the writers probably mistyped "Cleon" as "Clone" (auto correct?) which very well may have given them the idea how to tackle the Empire part over several centuries with the same three to five actors. That's my personal head canon at least.
@berlindude75 - Honestly, that probably really is how it happened.
Maybe it was part of Asimov's plan all along. Maybe he was a real psychohistorian! (Okay, psychohistory doesn't actually work that way, but still...)
Definitely a clever way to weave in the source material in a totally fresh approach. I also think Asimov would have approved. Just like the French author of ‘Planet of the Apes’ wished he’d thought of the twist at the end of the Heston movie.
@@edbouhl3100 Oh really? I'd not heard of the Planet of Apes book having a different ending than the movie.
@@bbbl67 Yes, in the book it really is a different planet and at the end the protagonist travels back to Earth with Nova and their little boy.
Pete really top notch dive into the Cleon’s! I really appreciate that your videos are careful to not mention book spoilers, as I’m encountering the Foundation series for the first time via AppleTV+
glad to hear it
I was intrigued by this show from the beginning till end. That rarely happens...I rarely watch TV but this was just intellectual stimulating
the cleonic dynasty are the best idea for the shows
Excellent summary. As to the latest Empire developments, I am still somewhat stunned that there are no safeguards in this 400-year old clone system against a Brother Day deciding to end it all through marriage on a whim. Naturally, you'd think that Demerzel is the safeguard -- that is, unless she is complicit in its demise (which, however, seems contrary to the flashback scenes of her and Cleon the First in S1).
Somehow I think it'll be shown that she's become corrupted through general degradation or through some other group who have altered her.
OMG this is perfect to tide me over until the next episode.
Read the books 50 years ago. Have to admit I could not see how this could be adapted to film. But lets face it its very well done and interesting. Goyer did it perfectly .
I would have instituted protocols for inevitable change, meaning we cant expect the Genetic dynasty to last forever, so when things do drift there will be guidelines that will be introduced that will shape the next phase of the dynasty
Thank you for always putting out the content. Helps me to understand things about the show that i didnt know before. I always eagerly wait for your vids so thank you on fresh take on these scenes and conversations and relationships 😊
Glad to hear it!
I read some of the books. This is really brilliant. It adds an extra layer not seen before.
The genetic dynasty is such a cool concept
This breakdown and ID of each generation of Cleons as they appear across the episodes is super helpful. Thanks! Love this series ;)
no problem
I haven't seen the series. Re-reading the entire series in order. Enjoying these videos. Demerzel is male in Prelude to Foundation.
Thanks for this. I didn't realize that Cleon was an anagram for clone. Wow!
best show on telvision in a long long time frankly foundation has the sad misfortunate of being on apple, imagine if it was on HBO
Yes the Cleons are the most interesting element that wasn't in the books. I'd like to see if one or some of them would become the ultimate villains. I like the Game of Throney vibes from them
OMG we needed this episode of Pete Peppers Brilliantly Presented
It's such a great way of staging the show, keeping the story personal over hundreds of years, but the idea isn't completely orginal. In his 1975 book 'Imperial Earth' Arthur C Clarke writes about Titan being ruled by 3 clones of different generations. I'm not sure if the showrunners came up the the idea independantly or borrowed it from this book (the Novel is definietly worth a read for SF lovers)
Thank you, Pete. Immensely useful and enjoyable. Highly recommend for fans of the show. I didn't spend the time retracing all the Cleons. Your effort here greatly improves my understanding and appreciation for the show. Again, thank you. Keep up the great work, brother. Peace.
great recaps. just about to read forward the foundation. I am glued to the tv show though. The quality of production and writing Goyer has given in his interpretation has exceeded anything I could have hoped for.
The cleonic scenes are my favorite ones in pretty much every episode.
Thank you for the interesting summary. One minor quibble, the clones are referred to as exponents not extrapolations.
yeah, it was a mistake
I had thought that Darkness sensing that something was wrong when the baby cried was him somehow having an inkling that he was different.
Thank you for this!
Up to S02E07 now, and this recap is awesomely informative~
Asimov provided the template by giving us holo - Hari.
But the genetic dynasty is definitely a fun extension of the idea
Lee Pace as Brother Day has the same lighthouse performamce within this show like Anthony Starr hits it out of the park as Homelander in "The Boys". Damn do I want to see them together in a show or a movie!
Not being a book reader, I really enjoy this series. The Genetic Dynasty is a great concept and htey've been making it work for me.
There was no Cleon-Clone Dynasty in the original? Genius invention by the writers/creators.
Lee Pace is a great actor!!
“Brother darkness” lol! Nice Chapelle reference. DARKNESSES!
They should have never gave you clones lineage! Darkness!
I love the books and I love the show, they’re both similar but different
Lee Pace carries the show.
If you've never read the books, this may be a fine show.
The Empire in the series is absolutely fascinating. It's so well done, and I think it builds a great bridge from the sentiment of the Robot series to Foundation series in the books. It was all about the decay and stagnation, on the side of Spacers as well as people on Earth. And the cycle repeats itself here and ***SPOILERS FOR THE BOOKS***
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Demerzel, aka Daneel, has to watch this happen over and over again. I think about it often, the way Demerzel has to carry that knowledge, that lesson, into a new age. And how many new ages have there been already.
After all, Elijah Bailey's final words about the importance of humanity as a whole were a huge accelerator to Daneel's consciousness and choices to help humanity keep on living - and live a better life. I think about this so often, and especially when watching the episodes.
I really like the way Foundation series went about this. I hope we get to see even more.
this video is so good Apple should hire you. No exaggeration. Great job of editing.
I believe that if Asimov were alive today he'd approve and say that he'd wished he'd thought of that.
The Cleon’s are the best part of this show by far.
I love the books, and I hate what they did to the plot in the show. Lee Peace is the main reason for me to watch it 😍
This is great, you really explained some things I was missing since I haven’t read the books yet. Thanks!!
this is the best sci-fci show analysis on youtube! Thanks for your videos!!
This is one of the best parts of the show imo
Thank you for your recaps and summaries, it really helped to get me through S1. I can't be the only one who is fast forwarding through all the foundation parts of the show (and it was really easy to do as well with the two storylines completely separate for now). I'm curious if that will change in S2 but so far I'm only interested in the Empire side of the story.
@Pete Peppers - I am making this post a few days after you posted this video, and I must say its fantastic! Foundation is hands down my new favorite tv show by far!! It doesnt seem like any other UA-camrs have decided to make content like this beyond yourself and I am grateful for it!! I even showed up to watch your Mid-Season discussion the other day and that was amazing also! Since you seem to be leading the charge on UA-cam with this show, I am hoping that you will continue to give it the attention and priority it deserves by continuing to do so!
Really I can seem to get enough of Foundation content, be it from Apple or from yourself on UA-cam itself. I suppose I should subscribe to your channel now (done) so that I can continue to watch your content. Raised by Wolves was my favorite show up until the surprise by the makers of the show who in their misplaced wisdom cancelled it. I would hate for Foundation to receive that same treatment. I for one will be looking for more Foundation Content on your channel!! I will keep my eyes peeled for it since I dont like notifications. Thank you for your efforts on this one and please keep going strong with Foundation!!
Great work! I hope I don't sound crazy but your break downs are so good and I am so busy that some times I skip episodes and watch your break downs instead. Thank you and please keep them coming. :-)
This show is actually better than the books. The books were never this capitulating
I could watch a whole show just about this!
By far the best part of the show. We are getting peak Game of Thrones level of political intrigue when the Cleons are on screen.
This adaptation is brilliant.
Goyer’s Foundation isn’t Asimov’s Foundation. It’s not an adaptation, and it’s so different that calling it “inspired by the works of Isaac Asimov” still feels like a stretch. Maybe it truly is impossible to bring this seminal work of science fiction into another medium, but other shows could still do a hell of a lot better job than this.
@@Feefa99 fair enough, the show is still brilliant.
I’ll be honest, this plot line is the best part of the show by far.
This video is awesome. One of the best breakdowns of any show I've seen, keep up the amazing work..
These are really great; I'm happy I found them. It's quite the show to completely absorb and your summaries (and connections) make it a much better and satisfying experience. They've definitely made Foundation one of my favourite shows in the last few years.
We'll see if the (currently striking) writers can keep it going! Kudos to them so far. I haven't read the books, but from what I can gather, even though the show is significantly different, it's merely an altered clone (if you will :) ) that stands up on its own.
Watching this excellent video essay highlights how spectacular this production looks and the thought, effort and money which has gone into its creation.
Many thanks for this excellent and insightful character analysis!
Foundation is one of the best adaptations i have seen, it just really goes to show what good wrting looks like, and OhBoy am i looking forward to learning more about demerzel, we are not seeing the whole picture yet. thanks for the surprise mid week video pete,
Holly crap i didn't even notice Cleon is an anagram for clone, I was just thinking Cleon from ancient Greece.
Your videos about this stuff makes it all so more interesting, can`t wait for the next one!
Hopefully I'll be able to do a fairly comprehensive Demerzel video after the next couple of episodes.
What if Demerzel is behind the corruption of the genetic dynasty? After hearing Harri’s prediction that eliminating the genetic dynasty will postpone the fall of the galactic empire, maybe she decided that this was the best way to preserve the dynasty.
Except that robots aren't supposed to be able to kill humans.
@@dalazul9711Robotic laws are different in the Foundation show. Demerzel is now only bound by one law, “serve Empire.”
@@dalazul9711they are if it will save humanity as a whole. That is the fourth law. So let’s see.
Or zero law: A robot must not harm humanity or, through its passivity, allow humanity to be harmed.
@@dalazul9711She could by law zero break others, so if she think the genetic dynatie to be essential for humanity survival she could. ’’loyal to the empire’’ maye her law are alterated. Or a trick, she only see the genetic clones as true humans, with the genetic drift this can bring a big problem if they reach the point she didnt see them as true human.
I'm glad you're okay with the book changes. So many people get upset that a book turned into a TV series or movie ends up 'wrong' in their opinion. Its two different mediums, rarely can you actually get it to translate well (and even then, you have to have the right people doing it - see Good Omens).
But with Foundation being a series of stories and novels, written decades ago, and the creator no longer with us, we have to just enjoy what these showrunner and writers are giving us. I think they are paying great homage to the books, with their changes actually working out for the best. We get better understanding of characters, settings, different time periods. And the Genetic Dynasty is an amazing addition. Plus it prevents the whole 'oh hey everyone in your family resembles you' trope that happens in a lot of shows that utilize the same actor to portray different characters within a family.
Plus Pace. C'mon man. Look at him!
It's fucking awful and a travesty to pretend that this show is actually Foundation... the best part and only redeeming thing in the show is the Cleonic Dynasty & that has nothing to do with Foundation series. Ruining Foundation just makes the show bad since all the parts devoted to doing that is taking away from the far more interesting dynamics of Cleon/Empire that the showrunners have created.
To be honest i would be fine with a show just about the empire and the dynasty. Only with Lee Pace of course.
I want a coffee table book about Trantor, presenting the planet as an exotic tourist destination in the retro-futuristic style of the 60s. Pages of detailed cutaways of the palace, the star bridge (or whatever it was called), the zoological gardens, and the many levels where the citizens live.
Not corny like the Jetsons, but that generally optimistic 50s-60s mid century modern style and tone in the art and the writing. That would be so awesome! There could be an appendix with a handful of other worlds in the empire, each of them very different.
Damn I watched an entire first season with no clue I was watching so many Cleons over a long period of time LOL.....where would we be without UA-cam