The Age of Sigmar Lore Issue
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- Опубліковано 26 тра 2024
- Sturgeon's Law states that 90% of everything is garbage, There have been a few gems produced by the Warhammer team but AoS hasn't quite produced a lore that has really touched the masses, let's talk about it. Tell us in the comments below if this content is something you might be interested in and we will upload one of these every week, we love constructive criticism.
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You make a great point. Vince Venturella i think had a podcast ranking all of the factions lore. One of the points he made was that from the SCE perspective we should see the burdens and effects an eternal war have on the Cities of Sigmar and the stormcast who defend them. It really is a horror scenario if you think about being a hero who more or less lives forever and everytime they come back, they are a little less of what they used to be.
Yeah I totally agree, the only time I came close to understanding what it's like was with the Sigmar Lied Ad, but yes it could have more stuff on it so that people can get behind that too because I think a lot of people get into the hobby through the lore as well ~Sunny
To me the problem is that you can't really feel the scale. The cosmology is all over the place and stakes are not relatable at all. Let's say the forces of order lose one of the cities in one of the realms. So what? They don't really sound like it was a good idea to build them there in the first place.
In other words, I can understand when every realm is within one continent, or even if it is measured in planets and systems. But with the AoS cosmology there is no measure that I can relate to.
The other - they rewrite it all the time. How can I get invested if there's always a chance of them changing everything as soon as I start to care?
Man that really does sound (insert swear words here) I am not very well versed in AoS but I can get that feeling of haphazardness you are talking about and it would be really frustrating if they keep rewriting things ~Sunny
I do not feel anything when 40k loses a planet neither.
You say that as if 40k doesn't have the same exact issue; yet a LOT of people are invested. Generally, you just need to get invested in characters, factions, or specific locations; not necessarily the whole cosmos aspect. You can say the same for any grand fantasy like DnD which has multiple universes and yet people get so invested in the fate of Baldur's Gate, a city.
You put my feelings into words. This is exactly the issue I have with it, you don't have a sense of scale and relatability. And to people who are saying "40k is the same", kind of ? but 40k actually pulls it off.
First because unlike the warp fuckery that are the realms in AOS, the Milky Way galaxy is a somehow defined place. We just don't really know exactly how many habitable planets there are but we know that once it's gone it's gone (plus you can look up science stuff to make an estimate).
Second, when a planet gets destroyed in 40k, why should you care ? Well you don't , and that's by design. It's the grim darkness of the far future, a planet lost to chaos/tyranids/orks/exterminatus is just a simple note on a dataslate, and that's what makes it great. And it's also why i preferred the lore of old warhammer to have the contrast with a setting that is actually set on a defined planet with clear cities and places.
@@olivisar Amazing how the exact same logic used to justify it happening in 40k can easily apply to AoS. Its a post-apocalyptic setting filled with ruined cultures and lost civilizations that either succumbed or survived Chaos; with cities springing up or being destroyed on the daily.
Again, you guys prove that you have zero idea about what you're talking about. Imagine some random person who doesn't know about 40k just mentioning that it looks like a f@scist game because of imperium iconography and judging its players like that. That's literally what you're doing.
That being said, if you are more comfortable with the Milky Way galaxy and planets as a concept? Then yeah. That's fair. Though that does mean that you kinda lack imagination, to be frank.
Is it just me or whenever some says “lore” they mean “novels”? AoS has actually quite interesting lore in terms of its setting and factions and how they interact … so you can make up your own cool stories when you play. And if you don’t like the setting that’s okay, you are allowed to just say it isn’t your thing.
Do you mean lore or novels is apt but, I feel like it's saying you mean snacks or a meal when we talking about food. There is shallow lore like the army books but that is just going to leave you hungry. The novels is where you get the deep lore. Like we said we like some things conceptually but it needs that deep connective tissue to have some things to enjoy - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Honestly I like the openness of Age of Sigmar, you get the broad strokes of the setting & big movers & shakers & can make up your own stuff about your own armies & characters.
If you want to use the food metaphor, then I think that you might be going to a hotdog stand & asking for a 4 course meal & then giving them a 1 star review because they "didn't have good food".
I don't think the metaphor is great anyway, because it implies that one (a meal) is definitely better than the other (a snack), when in this case it is a matter of opinion.
And as I'm not into Space Marines or Imperium, then by your standard 40K lore is pretty lacklustre for me. Not many good novels about Aeldari or Tau out there. :-(
But then as a Xenos fan maybe I'm already used to not having fiction available anyway ;-)
@@danajadzia3390 I think we disagree and it's okay to disagree. So on my part let's agree to disagree - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow It's all good, the video made me think & I just wanted to share those thoughts.
I think it's just the word "lore" and it's ambiguous use in the community that bothers me. Something for me to ruminate further on.
Oh and thank you for making this video, we might disagree but it was a good listen.
@@danajadzia3390 Totally just because people disagree doesn't mean each side can't have points and doesn't mean one side is good and the other is bad.
It's nice to encounter people who understand that - Cal
In regards to the stormcast losing their humanity bit, I would suggest checking out yndrasta.
Spoilers for the book obviously but a part of the book is dedicated to yndrasta realising how much of her humanity she had lost
Haven't read it yet have heard about that part but I haven't heard the same level of praise for that I have for any of the 40k books. Thus why we think they need more fiction in general - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow oh I definitely agree that AoS needs more fiction in general
I really respect this exploration of AoS lore.
Thank you very much! Please feel free to express your thoughts on the lore too we like hearing different perspectives ~Sunny
It was warcry 1st edition that got me into the warhammer hobby. All the chaos warbands fighting for the attention of Archaon was amazing it annoys me to this day they didn't make a bigger deal of it.
I thought it was interesting how they made Bela'Kor the relatable chaos leader, his the guy who will actually talk to you and help you, but Archaon just doesn't give a toss - Cal
AoS lore is just so wild. Some, such as flesh eater courts being completely mad and believing themselves to be chivalrous knights, is genuinely interesting. But by contrast Stormcast use souls from a range GW canned in order to make their armour??? They also completely fucked up their attempt to make Stormcast the Space Marines of AoS. SMs, while super human, can still die and show a lot of human flaws. There is jeopardy, their lives mean something and they still show very human traits. Stormcast, however, will just come back when they die. Yes, they will eventually become a husk, but all sense of value to their lives is lost. They don’t have that slither of relatability that SM have.
I mean, I think we're skimming over the interesting things in the Lore here, and are focusing talking about the Stormcast, which I suppose is fair (They have my gryph boys, after all), but that's like... that's not where the conflict lies at all. While the conflict between Sigmar and Nagash is central for a few stories, the real stories are about the ambitions of near god like mortals that persist after the end of the world, carving out realms in the memories of the world in the heart of these elemental planes, and the absolute chaos and turmoil at the edges. The big campaign is about the ambitions of the Dark Elf Matron, and (I've not read the books, so I'm fuzzy) and the Light Elves rise to counter before she ascends to a level of power like the Chaos Gods. The Sylvaneth desire to press forward and force their form of unbridled growth upon the universe, and while they are roughly on the side of order, they also are tenuous in their allegiance.
Focusing on the Stormcast, which has their own horrific thing going on for them, is focusing on really the side aspect. The Stormcast Exist, and they resist against change, which is impossible, really, because of the nature of the world. The Stormcast are static and look to create stasis in a world that churns and has ambitious players, and while Sigmar has a grand Illuminati-esqu design, his ambitions don't drive the metaplot. All the other factions do.
The reason that the original War Cry warbands are interesting, and the tales of the battle for the Eightpoints is is because here we are, in the middle of the roil, where beyond all logic and hope, life persists, and you have these gangs and covens and little splinters fighting over the pieces where there is just enough stability to have life. There are stories there, amongst those chaotic factions. It'd be worth telling some of those. For sure, it's a bit more interesting than whatever the Sigmarites are doing.
There is also the tales of the cities, which has a lot of room to explore and do things with. One of my favorite cities in the game Misthaven, is this city of pirate ships and wrecks that are mobile to evade places. THe city is all gangplanks, decks, and floating docs and piers that form thoroughfares. I have been wanting to have space to build a battle board for this city for years, and it's all in the foggy darkness that is Ulgu. It is ripe for Mordenheim style skirmish battles, and desperately calls for some pirate or seafarer specialty models for the Cities of Sigmar.
...And maybe the point is that there is no developed lore. That we just fot snapshots all over the place, because we are talking about a multi-planar universe that has all sorts of things going on, but that is the thing I love about Age of Sigmar. It's a landscape of extreme imaginative places, where there are ambitious god like beings sending mortals into the mix, and the races of old just keep trying to survive and adapt to a world that will never be the same as in the histories. The world ended, but life continued on, and it survives, despite the efforts of the Gods of Death and the Gods of Chaos. That is what makes this setting exciting.
In anycase, I love the setting for Age of Sigmar. I enjoy a lot of aspects of it, and maybe it's just me, but I prefer it when the lore of places isn't completely fleshed out. To go on an aside, Forgotten Realms of D&D went from being a joy to being something I didn't want to play or run, because once the novels took over everything, you were not really allowed to do things and play with people who consumed those novels, because they would be upset when things were different than they expected. I feel the same thing would happen here if everything always was completely fleshed out. I like ambiguity in my games, so I can get in there and tell my own stories, and I think that is something that Age of Sigmar has allowed for, and I am ever thankful for that.
in anycase, this was my rant with love from the Holiday in the States, so lots of love to you all, and thank you for a good video.
We think that people connect most with individual focused stories that is why we talk about what we did rather than world building stories. Glad you enjoyed you're obviously passionate about Age of Sigmar so so hopefully we did something right - Cal
I know absolutely nothing about Age of Sigmar, but I know “mid” fiction by many names.
Wish to share some he said with degree of regret - Cal
So I’ll add another point which is my issue with aos from a lore perspective. It’s bad conceptually. Warhammer fantasy you have a medieval fantasy world, in 40k we have infinite worlds with space travel. In aos we have a handful of “worlds” that only exist around several cities or gates. Where a plane shifting game is usually filled with possibilities this whole universe has limited itself to like five cities. To top it off, has very little in it for people to actually relate to. You can’t really come up with new places or fill in new areas because once you get away from the gates the worlds turn to pure chaos.
In war hammer fantasy it was easy to imagine the lives of the people there and you had a whole planet to play with. 40k even the actual books play up on the familiar and you can always introduce a new location or faction.
Oh even from a gaming perspective they ripped all the wfb factions in half to make the new ones and tried stripping them of models that can be easily proxied
It sounds like you haven't read anything about AoS since 1st edition, and it shows. There are lots of supplements that show how daily life works, and people forming new cities while interacting with native cultures that survived the Age of Chaos. Its been a whole thing. You're just running off of memes that are 7 years out of date. Its like looking at WHFB and just reading about the memes of its early editions. It would look like trash too, with DnD-esque peoples doing DnD-esque things in places that vaguely look like Earth but are utterly undefined.
Heck, outside of the Empire, most of WHFB isn't really that well explored at all, now that I think about it.
@@stephenjenkins7971 last edition I played was 1st and some of the start of 2nd. I have a sylvaneth army and just havnt been motivated to play it, tried reading some of the books and was just kinda… meh. Same issue.
@@Darklight689 So I was right. Again, totally fine; but please don't act like you know how AoS is like now rather than how it was like back then.
@@stephenjenkins7971 why did they change how the planes work? Or add in more horseback units?
Okay had a busy day and a beer so this might come across weird but…this is amazing stuff. Two people talking with one taking the lead and the other organically asking questions to deepen the essay with questions from “the audience”.
I’m pretty sure it’s scripted but it’s so good. So smart. Great combination of subjects as well between paint and lore stuff.
Thanks a lot mate! It is somewhat scripted we do rethink what we want to say and then say it again at times, so we do rerecord parts we feel could be expressed better but for the lore ones we don't have a written script but our more educational ones will have one.
And I do like that you enjoyed this format of conversation because a number of our viewers say they like that about our videos and it helps them understand things really well ~Sunny
Short story "Blessed Oblivion" by Dale Lucas from Oaths and Conquests book is closely related to what you were describing. Give a read, it's genuinely good stuff!
I will take a look but honestly until we made this video we haven't had any recommendations for Age of Sigmar stuff beyond Hamilcar - Cal
At least it's a good way get recommendations! Video is good though and the points still stand. I've been following AoS lore for years now and it's been getting better every single year, but it's still not quite "there" yet.
And yeah, it has had large "events" with Necroquake, Broken Realms, etc. But they are so removed from everyday citizen's life that they don't really feel like they have an impact.
Heck, Skaven just blew up 1/3 on Great Parch, but because we don't have a perspective on how it actually affect anyone, it doesn't mean much.
Dawnbringer Crusade was a step in the right direction, with their more ground level perspectives, but still.
It is still a really enjoyable setting, with bunch of good stories and very interesting worldbuilding, but maybe one day it will all be genuinely good.
I think events be they 40k or Age of Sigmar are bad news, I think the format is bad in general. Thanks listen and hearing us. I think a lot of age of Sigmar fans are very defensive and I can get why. But they do themselves no favours when they come in and talk about how we need to read stuff we talked about in the video. But I think if they get more fans like you then it is doomed to prosper. Thanks for your comments - Cal
This kinda reminds me of one line from The End and Death Part 3, "Its not how much power you have, its what you do with it". I guess the same logic can be applied to AOS lore, not about power, but how much potential and cool stuff AOS has, and how much GW can do with it. Ahhh the potential....
There is a lot of potential and I think they can do something great with it, I am just waiting for them to do something GREAT with it, not good but, GREAT! - Cal
It reminded me of Argentina. 😅😅
Age of Sigmar totally feels like a generic wargame, with the lore being used to cynically produce more minis. I mean this is fine if GW were honest about it, but to constantly insist that it's deep and rich, when it's not, is wearingly off putting. Individually a number of factions have really cool concepts, but the connective tissue is weak.
The Soul Wars novel describes well the fall & change of Stormcasts - including how one is turned by Nagash and another vaguely recognising their past life but being unable to connect with it due to it being totally erased from their memory.
WHFB is by far the most generic wargame, though. It was likely created as a way to sell DnD miniatures and ripped off everything from Tolkien while slapping real life history over it. If there is something you can say about AoS, its that its the opposite of "generic"; idk how you call Light Elves that commune with spirits and get high off light magic rocks generic by any means.
@@stephenjenkins7971 I think I meant that looking as an overview. AoS is a wargame with lore tacked on to support its sales. I agree WHFB was super generic, no argument here. My latter point was there's some really cool concepts, but the lore for the Universe doesn't make the most of it.
this feels so robotic. cant go on past a few minutes. also how much of aos lore do you know?
Thank you for this great video!
Glad you enjoyed it! We are new at lore videos so glad to hear it as well - Cal
❤️🔥
Thanks - Cal
There's a number of issues of the Age of Sigmar lore. It was rushed into existence, it was clearly designed-by-committee and heavily corporately driven, which isn't NECESSARILY a problem, but because of these things, it was never allowed to grow and develop ORGANICALLY the way 40k or Fantasy was, for all their problems.
Another MAJOR issue for me, is that the setting feels completely ungrounded. I'm a big fan of baselines, when I play Starcraft or Warhammer, I like the basic units to be prominent, because they anchor all other units and establishes the scale. Empire State Troops, High Elf Spearmen, Dwarf Warriors, or Starcraft Marines. Or in Heroes 3, the Pikeman, the Gnoll, the Goblin, etc. etc. Point is that these shouldn't be too heavily designed, and they should show a normal human level, etc. That makes it all the more impressive when the REALLY powerful people come around.
But when you focus on Stormcast fighting Ironjawz and Chaos Warriors? They all just cancel each other out. They become like toy soldiers being thrown around like plastic with no sense of scale or anything. I KNOW that the Cities of Sigmar exist, I KNOW there are average people, but they are so out of the limelight (until fairly recently) that they don't feel like the face of the setting. To me, the Age of Sigmar setting feels untethered, essentially, without any real weight or meat to it. (Now, unpopularly, I kinda feel like this about the Horus Heresy as well, but I know a lot of people disagree with that.
Same for 40k. When marines became the rule of measurment it all felt more distant, specially for those that relate for "lesser" factions like elves or humans.
Once upon a time the imperial guard was "the hammer of the emperor". Now they exist only to pave the road of titans with their corpses.
This channel should be called MANSPLAINING WARHAMMER
You are very new here and it shows - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow thanks Cal. Yes it’s the first video I have seen. What’s your point?
Your screaming makes you seem unhinged and it really showed how little you thought of Sunny. When I showed her the comment she said "uhh idiot don't reply". Comments like this not only demean women but, yourself I know I am expecting a lot from the internet when I do this but you should really apologise to Sunny for your behaviour. We get the occasional woman hater like you here. But Sunny has gotten sick of dealing with them and how they delete their comments right after they are confronted. So are you going to continue your blatant sexism or am I going to be able to show her an apology? - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I’m a feminist! You’re the one treating her like an idiot.
I don't understand how someone can be a feminist when they listen to a conversation where the woman isn't distressed she is engaging with it with all her brain cells and you can say I've been treated as the idiot by my counterpart?
I feel targeted for no reason all the time, why do people like you treat me like I am the damsel and need rescuing ~Sunny
As far as I've been concerned, the issue with AoS lore is that much of it feels too... grandiose? Overly wide in scope, to the extent of forgetting about the inhabitants of the setting. God-forged warriors battle with each other across fantastic worlds... to what end? There was no character to ground us to this fantastic world.
Take the various Realmgate Wars stories. Almost all of it is either "we gonna take back the realms" or "WTF are there lightning men?" Little to no humans giving us the ground level reasoning on how/why it matters.
It has definitely gotten better over time. Cities of Sigmar is a proper faction now, crusades of actual people are establishing new settlements, named characters who aren't divine soldiers exist again, Gotrek is back and providing a "boots of a wanderer" perspective again... stuff like that.
I swear people who complain about the AoS lore dont actually read the novels, they barely even read the battletome blurbs. Hamilcar, Yndrasta, Plague Garden and even the shitty Dominion novel all go into detail about the "plight of the Stormcast"
Especially when people then turn around and hail some bolter porn Dan Abnett spits out as gospel.
We talk about Hamilcar in the video... I swear people like you don't even watch the video before complaining... - Cal
Your sigmarine lore sounds like dark souls 2.
Really? I have never played it - Cal
yeah it should just never have existed in the first place. rubbish rules tacked on to nonfitting minis, oh dang now we need to have some lore, better cook up some bs.
It also doesn’t help that most of the books coming out of black library are very boring and unimaginative. Even in the new old world book the author completely discarded the characterful lore of the Bretionians. In favour of a more modern Marvel style story.
I just don't understand who it's supposed to appeal to. Not classical fantasy fans... nor sci fi fans... Who is even left after those two groups of people? It also doesn't help it replaced a well recognized IP. I'd be pretty surprised if AOS is still around in 10 years.
I lost count the number of times no was said. Why does this discussion need to be negative?
AoS lore feels shit because its a business decision... same with the Primaris. They are like 4th wall breaking marketing decisions
Totally understand what you are saying but, let's remember the Horus Heresy was made to sell titanicus back in the day. We can get good stories still. I get what you are saying though - Cal
WHFB was literally the ultimate business decision; it was created for the SOLE PURPOSE to sell DnD models that Games Workshop was selling at the time. The irony of this comment is kinda juicy
@@stephenjenkins7971 You're not wrong but I don't think you have to rub salt in. I think he's right in that it FEELS different because it's so transparent. Maybe back then it was just as transparent, but it doesn't FEEL that way. But you're not wrong - Cal
My issue with AoS is that it's not really that relatable. I'd like my Vampire Lord to live in a derelict castle terrorizing a small town. I'd like my Sylvaneth to inhabit a dark, twisted grove next to a village, with inhabitants sacrificing animals so angry forest spirits leave them alone and they can continue to grow their crops in peace. Down to earth stories like that where I can come up with lore for my army that seems personal. And to be honest, I have no clue what realm I would even need to have my village with Sylvaneth grove next to them to be. They focused so much on grand cosmology and fantastical concepts they kinda forgot about the regular people.
I understand what you are saying but I don't think mythic story telling is different not bad. Planescape and D&D are often mythic but still have good stories magic the gathering too. I think classic fantasy is easier - Cal
... that's literally what the Sylvaneth are do you read the AoS lore, the novel Dark Harvest is exactly what you describe
It's shi... not good.
I know that took a lot of self control, thank you - Cal
The best, most creative thing in AoS is the FEC. Someone is going to write a great series one day.
You have use full words otherwise people won't understand - Cal
Aos lore is bad cause it has nothing to really solidly plant your feet, so to say. How do these people even feed themselves when in the realm of fire (aqshy i believe) acid rains from the sky that melts skin etc. This is from the gloomspite novel. It seems like aos is cool stuff thrown together but most of the time i cant really wrap my head around how people can actually live if not in 1 of the major cities how can there be a village somewhere or another city how would they connect as there is no roads really is it all by teleportation which on its own is quite out there.
Totally understand that bit but I think one good novel will solve those issues - Cal
They use Aqua Ghyranis; water from the Realm of Life, to turn the soil into fertile soil to plant with. And the acid rain doesn't even occur in all places in the Realm of Aqshy either. This is stuff easily checked on the AoS wiki, but you didn't check because you don't care about the setting. Which is fine; but don't act like that makes AoS lore bad. It just means that you didn't give a crap enough to give it a chance and learn more.
The incredible? AOS receives new miniatures like nothing practically every month while the rest of Warhammer...
I am not following, it might get great minis but, that doesn't mean it gets lore all the time - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow What I meant was that AOS gets miniatures all the time but then Warhammer 40k or Warhammer TOW have armies with outdated or unoriginal miniatures which is frustrating.
I also think that one of the big problems that AOS has is that it does not have its own characters that stand out since most of the important characters, even Sigmar himself, come from Fantasy and that takes away a lot of its own identity.
@@zacaritestI’m gonna be real with you man, quantity means nothing. The Tomb King on Necrolith Dragon has more character than entire AoS factions.
@@zacaritest It really doesn't; AoS brands itself as a sequel to WHFB. Similar to how Horus Heresy is a prequel to 40k. Its its own thing, but also connected. It has plenty of standalone characters; you just don't care enough to check on it. Which is cool, but don't pretend like you know anything either. Vandus, Gavriel, Ionus, Tahlia, Katakros, and many many more.
There is lore?! All I see is fantasy and 40k lore which I love but no AOS.
Not true. There is a lore issue: AoS is a bad sequel to a story with a disappointing ending a.k.a. 'The end times'.
Also, stop trying with the Stormcast. They literally respawn after death. People joke a lot about Astartes, but hey, at least Space Marines actually suffer, get crippled, they fall and die for real.
Lol you know nothing about AoS lore and it shows, the Stormcast line shoes it big time.