WTF is GW doing with Firstborn Marines?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 9 лип 2024
- Join this channel to see my content early!
/ @thebonezone40k
Discord!!!
/ discord
Music used:
The Caretaker - B2 - Autumnal Equinox
The individual who did my profile pic!
/ lulzyrobot
These videos are meant for educational and entertainment purposes, I do not own, or ever will claim to own any of the art pieces used in this video. If you see any of your artwork and would like it removed or credited, message me on twitter with screenshots.
/ arthurbones1 - Розваги
I think what's really frustrating to me is the Primaris change is obviously due to something else besides simply just wanting to update their models because things like the recent Necron and Tyranid revamps shows GW are perfectly fine with updating model ranges without also forcing weird lore and rule changes along with it.
To me that shows GW *really* want marine players to basically buy their whole armies over again.
That what happens when you only push the sale of 1 of your many armies, they had 25+ years to sell the average joe anything but Marines on mass but they didn't want to, so...this.
The best part is so many will just buy it all over again lol
As a heretic who got nice new csm models with no stupid new lore and had to wait forever for it, I laugh at the lapdogs honestly
@@mr.alpharius6409 Them pushing literally any other army would probably clear up a lot of problems.
However I will say if marines being the #1 army in turn makes them a lightning rod for GW's bad and frankly predatory business decisions I'd much rather them stay that way over said decisions spilling over to other armies. As a Necron enjoyer I'd much rather have my army stay semi-obscure and get sprinkled updates rather than have to deal with re-buying whole squads of warriors because their models look a bit different now.
@@theodorehodbor5080 Yeah in a way I totally get what your saying my man, as a long time Guard player I did enjoy the lack of Sauron's eye on us from GW for a while, had Forge World to fall back to as well to cope with the drought of new models, however, we've had almost half our stuff from 5th ed onwards culled from our roster, seemingly we make so little that GW is now downsizing our us due to how little we must sell.
It's stranger even more due to CSM's have basically had their entire range updated and have great models and pretty decent new lore, you get to keep everything you had with them but also get tons of new cool stuff, they get the win/win yet GW doesn't get the hint?
"Most of my first born marines were gifts from friends who had divorces" oof. When a cold breeze of reality slips into a warm fantasy room.
What's really annoying is that this model change only really affects marine players, every other faction either gets new units or the old ones get updated. Sure some are okay as a proxy but considering primaris loadouts it also changes the flavor of what marines used to be before.
This comment is exactly how I feel. I like the old marine units and war gear 1000 times more than I like the primairis units and war gear. If they just updated the models this wouldn’t be a problem but they had to go and change everything about how the marines fight. It doesn’t even fix the bloat issue because now they have a different squad for every weapon when it used to be you’d get just about everything for any load out in a couple different boxes.
@@parkerlindsay4606 Guess that's how you sell more boxes. It's so lame how many of the units are just intercessors with different guns BUT WITHOUT the interchangeability that the old marine kits had.
I don't know when they did the beast snaggas with the specialized transports, weapons, and characters I was getting flashbacks of primaris marines.
Here's the reason I think GW are trying to push Primaris marines: Firstborn were too perfect of a product
If you think about it, the Space Marine army is the 40k army that fills every niche both in aesthetics and playstyle to a tee. You can marines with heavy weapons? That's a Devestator. You want a bigger space marine? That's a terminator. You want sneaky marines? Scouts. Mechs? Dreadnought. Now creatively this is great! It means you have a very versatile yet robust product for people to play with that'll never get old
But that's a problem, isn't it? Because if you have the perfect product, how the hell do you improve or expand it? Made worse by the fact that the product in question is a cashcow and older sculpts of those very same models are officially endorsed by GW. This is why we got very awkward additions like the centurion, which are just even bigger space marines than the terminators
I think GW is blatantly trying to replace the model range in order to get older players to buy into them, cutting out that backwards compatibility thing. I don't like it. Not because I don't like new things, but I just prefer how grounded and interesting the firstborn range is. Primaris are just oversized and bland by comparison. Plus, this push towards eliminating backwards compatibility means that it's going to be harder to play games set in conflicts before the Indomitus Crusade
Like, I watched a battle between two SM players where they were trying to fight the Badab War with primaris. And like... I'm glad they were having fun, but to me it just felt *so* wrong
"No more Lascannon/Meltagun Tac. Marine spam! Now go out and buy the new 3 man (Eradicator) meltagun squad!" - GW probably
I really don't like the lore of the primaris, I don't mind the model update. It would probably have gone over better if GW had just admitted that they wanted to update the form-factor and just rolled out the slightly larger models as still being the same old marines. Would have eliminated the contested difference of rules of the two as well.
I've been saying this for years. If they just did that there would never have been a problem besides the models looking a bit too clean.
It reminds me of when they redid the Armor for Halo 4 and one of the marketing people lied about "Cortana updated it!". Instead of just saying "we wanted to change the art direction because it'll look cool and make us more money" like functional adult would.
@@CoffeeMausThe people who make these decisions are the furthest from functional, and they make all these decisions.
@@mattd5240 That's true. Very few executives have any practical job knowledge, only how to increase stock prices and pull a unity.
It was also a copyright thing. They couldn't copyright space marine, they could copyright "primairs marines"
I've swung back and forth from hating them, to being content with them, to actually kinda liking them, and now I'm back to hating them again because I just look aesthetically and the Primaris are too clean, I look at them lore-wise and they took all these chapters that were genuinely struggling and utterly invalidated their struggles. I just, don't like them.
Dawn of War and firstborne marines in general got me into this hobby, and I just can't leave the boys that got me into this franchise behind you know?
As a Tau player who loved my Kroot Carnivore squads, I I feel you.
Man I’m just hoping our named Firstborn characters get new Primaris models rather than getting the axe eventually.
Most of them probably will just because doing that has a reasonable chance of being profitable.
Ah yes carabiner culln the risen becoming primaris. Mm
Case in point, my man Belial
He got bodied by Angron and got carried off near death.
I hope he doesn't die, and gets Primaris.
@@marbledgold0605 do you think it was so bad he'll need dreadnought?
Gotta get that primers Pedro
They took my fucking Ironclad Dreadnought man
Just... combine the rules. Make Primaris just a range refresh. We love range refreshes! They tickle our nostalgia bone. But if you are going to remove options, people are going to be understandably mad.
It's sad that firstborn are getting phased out, but getting told constantly "jUsT gO PlAy HeReSy!1!" is arguably worse.
just go play heresy
Ok, could you use the Firstborn models from HH as proxies though? I think that could help if the Firstborn from HH could do that, especially once all of them get made in plastic.
@@riokollivier The problem is that Firstborn space marines wear armor and use weapons that didn't exist during the time of the Horus Heresy. Only 3 legions had access to MK VII power armor, and that was only during the last couple months of a 9 year long conflict.
@@mattmark94 Kindly French kiss a waffle iron.
The thing that bothers me is that me and several people said this was gonna happen. But the majority of gw supporters at the onset of primaris marines said they wouldn't do that and we were doomsayers for no reason if they came out and said we plan to do a phase out of your models I'd be ok. But they didn't and it's the duplicity that bugs me more than the actual thing
Anyone who didn't realize Primaris models were going to eventually replace all the old sculpts from the beginning is a moron.
Ofcourse they were going to do this. I am pro Primaris camp and I never entertained the copium that firstborn would remain. Notable characters will cross the rubicon and old units will be replaced. What did you think they made new spacemarine form just to make few new units? This is happening, it cant be stopped.
Congratulations. You now know how corporate shills act like. Never take opinions from people that mindlessly support companies
@@coh2conscript851 and you know how to other people and treat them less for having a different opinion. You should know what a jackass looks like because you see everyone in the mirror daily.
And now that the doomsayers have been proven right, the whales just instantly do a 180 and say it was obviously coming, WHICH IS WHAT THEY CALLED US CRAZY FOR FUCKING SAYING.
Im of the opinion that as long as you can run primaris as firstborn and vice versa, then ill be fine with it. I think blurring the lines will not only help the fluff of 40k and how people want to design their chapters, but also will help to ease the tabletop aspects as u can still run older models or even updated models like in the horus heresy but without there having to be these extra rules for the models
Good point! And then just rebasing the first born to match the Primaris will be a good fix for the future. I am sure most people will be cool with it.
Yep
Yeah. Ideally while eventually all the firstborn models will be replaced, hopefully they will just let you run the old models as their primaris equivalents
Although it might be awkward to kitbash meltaguns/plasma guns/whatever onto the Primaris marines. It's not just the time investment, but the scale may be ever so slightly off as well. Idk, I haven't tried it out to see if that's the case.
@@DiceDweeb16 Are you Implying you think Games Workshop won't be releasing Primaris machines with Plasma guns and Melta's?
I am very sad. I was sold on old 40k aesthetic and for the very long time just couldn't afford the hobby. Now, when I finally have what I need, I can't do what I want. Stuff gets pulled out of sale, rules are given legends treatment and now I find myself in possession of several primaris units, because there's just no other way. It is very sad.
Thank you, dear author, for your nice videos. Best regards.
Feel the same man, i have wanted to buy the sternguard vetrerans and the company command squad for a long time. I haven't done that yet because i've been focusing on my ork and imperial guard armies. But now they're gone from gw, and replaced with the primaris versions. I don't want the primaris versions no matter how good they look, because to me the firstborn are nearly always superior. Call it nostalgia or bias but that's just how it is.
3D printer.
@@mattd5240 don't have one, and id rather work with plastic than resin or any other material
From the beginning (1995) i always made fun of the Penguin Army (stubby-footed First Born Marines)..
🤭
@@wakkruYou are so old,and yet you still behave so childishly.
My gripe with Today's 40k was: making every space marines primaris(to the point of fully phase-out firstborn ones), not all space marines need to be primaris
Yup. Also, no one fails the rubicon. Imagine if dante had finally died on the operating table? It would have rocked the chapter, and a lot of blame would've been leveled at cawl. Could've been interesting.
Primaris doesn't even need to exist tbh. They're just Space Marines all over again, but betterer this time. Their distinction is entirely artificial and hardly genuine.
Just buy the primaris models. Sorry not sorry youre too poor to afford to play this game. People with money don't complain. If you're poor, go play checkers or somethingm
@@LeiSnows Silence slag, your opinion is invalid. Go back to the corner and wait until you have our permission to speak.
@@LeiSnowsUrgent message from Inquisitor Obi-Wan Sherlock Clouseau; SILENCE HERETIC
The whole Firstborn vs. Primaris situation comes down to greed. GW had new Space Marines models ready, but the old minis still sold well. So someone came up with the "great" idea to sell old and new minis at the same time.
An easy and great way they could have had that is just when you go to buy a squad of marines have a dropdown tool list that says hey here's all the marines old and new that fill this role which would you like. This allows the customer to decide which aesthetic they want rather than being forced into it.
If that was the case why wouldn't they jack up first-born prices citing "ohhh it's an old mould and it's harder to make them now" or some other bs. Meanwhile highly customisable kits like vanguard and deathwatch vets are incredibly good value for money if you buy from a FLGS
they absolutely would because they're a shit company, but if they were a good company they would embrace the improved technology of 3d printing and be able to cheaply reproduce old spru's giving former metal models a new lease on life @@discipleofdagon8195
Thanks ! At least someone understands it.
That's exactly why Marines are now "allowed" to board the same Tanks.
Apart from the Tournament Players, everyone had them in Landraider anyway.
The funny part is they have a perfect have their cake and eat it to situation cause they could keep supporting first born via the Horus Heresy stuff while also pushing Primaris via their 40k line but they decided to literally cut themselves off potential revenue from people who might have bought the new cheaper plastic HH stuff for their 40k army
Honestly, i just think it'd be neat if they added a single, updated firstborn box, and remove the divide between primaris and firstborn units gameplay wise. People would be able to kitbash firstborn into their own units, and gw can continue to make primaris units. They could potentially even add more generalized upgrade kits for making the firstborn fit certain unit roles. I reckon an updated firstborn box, if they kept on producing it, might sell pretty well. What are y'all's thoughts?
yeah maybe they could add like a firstborn helmets box so you can make the primaris models look more classic, at this point I think thats something thats reasonably possible.
primaris should of been a upgrade to that unit
They've done it with terminators by saying both firstborn and primaris can wear terminator armor.
Why not the same for first born? I mean the average priamris marine is only like what two maybe three inches taller in lore then their first born counterparts, they can easily wear older marks of armor and there is even art work and models (Sternguard) where thats the case. It be awesome to see a guy running with say a mk 10 power pack and helmet but the rest is a mix of mk 7 and 6. It be fitting with the theme of ancient ramshackled armor in a grim dark future and they could even spin it off in the lore as supply lines being strained and mk 10 armor being hard to produce and maintain resulting in sets of armor being mixed with older variants, that theme is practically synonymous with the horus heresy with all the degrading broken down armor being hammered together, it would work perfectly again in the grim darkness of the far future.
My deathwatch army cost a LOT to build. To say I am resentful is an understatement.
To me its like...Very confusing even from a buisness standpoint. Last year they made an update to firstborn marines to where they get 2 wounds instead of one on table top, they also did this to chaos marines. However, also last year they got rid of their 2nd-3rd party play testers for upcoming editions because they thought this was a solution to their leak problem (it wasnt). To me, the decision to put first born marines to "legacy" is the equivalent of asking a friend whos played the game every once in awhile, and paints every once in awhile, and reads the lore, also, every once in awhile...Then just asking them to make the ultimate suggestion to change the game fundementally, even though the peers around him know the game inside and out.
Games workshop seems to be asking a corporate person whos somewhat familar with the game, but doesnt know fundementally why it works, however they do know how make ends meet when it comes to money and logistics.
Ever since last year, it just seems like they're going the more coprate hustle route because they slowy gotten rid of the people that knew how the game worked, and could actually tell them how to implement rules carefully.
None of that was guess work, that's literally been happening for decades.
Corporations work on the impossible principle of infinite growth. Any deviation from the sacred scripture is grounds for immediate bullying out of the company. The brain drain and cost cutting measures inevitably result in a colossal dip in quality and increase in stupid decisions. Like banning all fan animations, The End Times, & Matt Ward's books.
More likely than not, they promoted all the marketing people and gave them positions that could effect the game itself. This is exactly what happened with the whole wizards of the coast debacle.
And now WotC is largely ignored or chastised by anyone without pink hair or a taste for soy lattes. They've transitioned from a booming decade of profits to a slow decline thanks to a shift in target and marketing, with the only thing stopping a hard nose dive being the sunken cost fallacy.
I don't think we will see a 1 for 1 mirror between the companies, their audiences are just too far apart. I do think you will see a lot of similarities in the coming years, though.
@@DustyLamp Archeology has taught me that 3.0 and 3.5 were basically a beautiful accident that happened after Gygax got bullied out of the company by the exact same thing, and it collapsed. I don't think WotC can pull it off again.
@@DustyLamp Not actually true...WotC is actually *still vastly profitable and has seen year on year growth*. It is HASBRO that has seen their numbers tank. WotC is literally the only thing keeping Hasbro afloat. Also it's 2023 are we still doing the fucking "go woke, go broke" shit...despite that largely having been proven wrong and is mostly now just there for alt-right cringers to out themselves?
Heck if you don't believe me go take a look at the recent 3rd Quater report at Hasbro. Everything *but* WotC was down by almost 42%, whilst WotC was *up* by 40%. In fact here's the quick figures. Hasbro 10% revenue loss overall, Hasbro entertainment division -42% revenue, Consumer products -18% revenue drop. WotC and Digital Gaming +40%.
Now a large chunk of that was Baulder's Gate 3 but Magic the Gathering and D&D combined saw a +18% increase in year on year profits.
Now this may come across as me shilling for a major corporation but if you're going to say shit, at least get that shit *fucking right* instead of spouting the old 'go woke, go broke' bullshit.
So yeah WotC is now, according to some people, estimated to be maybe 15% of Hasbros Revenue but nearly 90% of it's profits, it's literally the only thing keeping Hasbro afloat and it's why they fault tooth and claw to keep Alta Fox Investments from splitting WotC off into it's own company and ditching Hasbro.
I think, lore-wise, the primaris concept is idiotic and antithetical to everything that came before it. I love the idea of a stagnated imperium with incredibly advanced tech that has lost the ability to understand it or create anything new, and every suit of power armor is sacred and irreplaceable. I don’t know why GW just didn’t upgrade their line to truscale model size and skip the dumb explanation that Cawl magically made a zillion new-and-improved marines out of nowhere.
Aesthetically, Mk VII looks infinitely cooler and more menacing to me than Primaris. I hate all the extra doo-dads and antennas. I’m team firstborn all the way.
The idea that the imperium was completely technologically stagnant was never true, even before primaris. The original lore reason as to why originally only the blood angels and grey knights could field the stormraven was that it was an experimental vehicle still in its testing phase, on top of this you had forge worlds that were developing their own patterns of different vehicles, the idea that technology in the imperium was entirely stagnant is a fundamental misunderstanding of the lore. The idea always has been that the imperium is on the decline since the horus heresy, and even their best tech pails in comparison to what they could field in the great crusade, and what humanity achieved in the dark age of technology. All the imperium tech is sourced from preexisting designs, and whilst innovation exists it is stilfed and looked down upon as heretical, unless it gets results.
@@captainweekend5276 You say they weren't technologically stagnant in the lore- and then say that they actively regressed from far past achievements, and reached a point where innovation is stifled...
That is about as close to entirely stagnant as you can possibly get.
@@jebreggie4225 How about you actually read my full comment where I say it's stifled but still happens, giving actual examples like the stormraven? Having regressed is literally the opposite of being stagnant, stagnant means unchanging, regression is going backward. The point that many people such as yourself aren't literate enough to understand is that technology in 40k for the imperium has regressed compared to the DAoT, but they still make advances in their own technology, it's just that those advances are still behind what they achieved in the DAoT.
The imperium is only technologically stagnant in the fact that their technology is almost entirely based on STC templates, but innovation still exists through forge worlds crafting their own patterns on standard template designs. Trying to say the imperium is entirely technologically stagnant makes you look as stupid as those who try to label it under a single political philosophy, maybe actually allow the setting to have some nuance rather than trying to boil everything down to a boiler plate level of understanding. The imperium experiencing both stagnation and innovation simultaneously is just one of its many hypocrisies that make it an interesting part of the setting.
@@jebreggie4225 I always thought it was a hilarious and smart comment on the dangers of adhering to dogma that the main reason no technological innovation could happen was that it would be a blasphemous act of defiance against the Holy Omnisiah. It set 40k apart and made the lore much deeper and closer to something like Umberto Eco’s Name of the Rose, rather than just any other generic Star Wars-esque space fantasy
You can't expect no technological advancement in over 10k years, that would be truly idiotic.
Interesting dynamic for sure. I wonder how CSM will adapt to this. Fabius Bile is probably already sharpening his knifes i am sure.
I started playing 40k at the start of the 8th edition. I remember seeing the dawn of the Primaris marines, I remember hearing of the rise of the primarch Roboute Guilliman. As a player I've always gravitated to the firstborne models due to their modularity and the memes were all of firstborn models. At some point afterwards i would amass an army of firstborn Lamenters after saving hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars in my collection. Now comes the 10th edition most of my army is in legends and I no longer have access to the rules despite paying for warhammer+ each month. I don't hold any resentment towards our primaris brethren and I'm not a tournament player so many of the units going to legends don't affect me but it does still hurt to see the direction that things are heading. Change is a part of life and he who looks only towards the past or the present are certain to miss the future. Even if the curse of misfortune is bound to our chapter.
For those we cherish, we die in glory.
Same boat brother.
@@cadaverificRenegade yeaah. It's not all bad though. I do like the direction that the primaris are headed though. Just the way they were introduced leaves a bad taste in my mouth
@@just_taccatI absolutely hate Primaris and will only be happy once they purged in a second Heresy, Cawl's Heresy.
I would say scouts and terms aren't inherently primaris. Mark 10 even had been said it can be worn by first borne. Honestly, at this point, gw is just saying they can be either your choice.
Which is what they have said in the first place, instead of giving people false hope that the Firstborn Marines would stay around.
>weapon options are different and in most cases outright taken away
Yeah no lol it's not either or
@CHRISTOSANESTI2023 I was more talking lore, but still. If someone wants to say there, guys, un tacticus armor is first borne they can. I like primaries. I have no bias against them. So, don't have a dog in this fight.
Also for someone like me coming back into the hobby after years, the names are melting my brain a little. Intercessors, Inceptors, Infiltrators, Incursors, Eliminators, Aggressors, Eradicators... I'll get there eventually.
honestly i like the new system of a unit for every purpose vs the tactical squad having 400 options, but they suck at naming, its been confusing for like three years
true but it means your marines are harder to adapt than a tac squad@@petararmbruster5039
its like the poke rap lmao
Had a browser tab open for as long as I can remember just for force organization, recognizing unit types and name searches. Primaris nomenclature does not stick.
I have a pure firstborn army worth around 2,500 points that I bought and painted in the last year and a half. Am I annoyed? Yes. Will I get rid of my firstborn? No. Why? Cause I kitbashed Primaris units using Firstborn models. So all I’m gonna say is “I win”
I discovered warhammer in middle school, dawn of war and space marine were my daily obsessions for a long time, then the books became a staple of my afternoons. I fell in love with the lore. After highschool once i managed to have a stable income, i finally bought my first box of minis. A squad of tactical marines.
That was about 2 years ago, and now the marines i grew up with and learned to admire, are being kicked to the curb.
Its like going into the hobby right as your favorite character gets retconned into a different person.
As someone who also got into Warhammer through Dawn of War, I know that feeling all too well. All the Marines I know and love, who hard carried the identity of 40k by being their iconic selves all this time, now feel like they're being disposed of. I'm never going to accept such ugly money-grubbing treatment of my little dudes. Primaris will always remain non-canon to me. Gee Dubs can take a hike.
@@NightLordsEnjoyer yep. Not to mention the lazy lore and world building since 8th ed. the black library guys have the herculean task of trying to give a cash grab some weight, they're trying but not succeeding honestly. it's worsened by the fact that they didn't get someone talented like Dan Abnett to at least make the change seem cool on some level. Everything about the universe has got less interesting, less compelling since primaris
Guys, you should definitely watch Primaris Arthur instead of this. Primaris Arthur is waaaaay taller.
The thing that irks me about the Primaris is that it fundamentally changes what Space Marines are on an existential level.
Firstborn were and still are the sort of “Jack of all trades” type of army, being able to adapt to situations on a micro level but still having the same baseline units(for example, a tactical squad can take a flamer and plasma gun if they’re dealing with infantry, or a Melta gun and rocket launcher if they’re dealing with armor).
Primaris are very much the opposite, as they have mono-weapon type squads(the Infernus, Eradicator, and desolator Squads all come to mind). Sure they’re exponentially better at their specialization, but the problem is that they are less adaptable gameplay wise(and therefore a lot more expensive to field). Plus up until recently, the Primaris haven’t really felt like…an army to me. It felt like running Primaris only was like running 75% of an army. Granted, with the purge of the firstborn units and introduction of their Primaris counterparts, that’s changed a fair bit.
I honestly feel like a solution to this problem would be instead of spinning firstborn into their own game mode, instead make another Firstborn focused army exclusively for those players, with the compatibility of Horus Heresy(think like Renegade Marines). It’ll probably be harder to implement than I think, but it’s not impossible.
I'm not surprised that firstborn are going, if anything I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner - I guess it took them a while to get the Primaris releases out and also I suppose some of the old kits were still selling well and the profit margin is great. What has surprised me more is the level of investment into plastic in Heresy that you aren't allowed/aren't encouraged to use in 40k, I felt for sure that some of the Heresy plastics would be marketed as replacements for 40k equivalents. It's almost like they're wanting to say no, you have to play/collect both of these game systems. I thought they would do something like you're suggesting, make a codex or a supplement for 'holdout' chapters who have either got cut off from the Imperium, think Primaris are heretical or have just lost the plot in the era Indomitus and want to do their own thing. This could have been combined with modelling guides using the Heresy models. Problem is, that kind of narrative approach isn't tournament friendly so it's gone never to return. When Heresy gets to the scouring era I think they'll do a mk 7 kit but I'd say firstborn are permanently dead for 40k.
I'm honestly surprised that anyone is surprised by this. Regardless, shit sucks and my condolences to anyone who's 20+ year collection is getting invalidated game-wise and to anyone who bought into space marines during this primaris transition and are seeing the first born marines they used to play the game get invalidated. I think this wouldn't be a thing if instead of inventing the Primaris nonsense they were just like "Yo we're finally investing in updating our design/manufacturing so we will start rolling-out newer and better sculpts to replace the old ones.", but then they woulnd't have sold as many of those first born marine kits during the (ongoing) transition. It's a good reminder that they're a corporation which means they don't give a shit about you, they give a shit about your money. Shiny new and cool will always outsell nostalgia.
WH is already ridiculously expensive with a single captain costing 40$.
Or 20 year old models holding the same price tag as "new and improved" models designed last year.
I thought I bought into models that could stay C-tier for years to come. Not a MtG modern deck that gets rotated out.
Except Wizards has at least the decency to have a strict rotation schedule up front. And their reasoning goes a little deeper than just "hurr durr the old pieces looked bad so we banned them".
Also with MTG even if the cards change a deck archtype doesn't really change ie mono red burn/aggro no matter the incarnation has the same basic gameplay loop at it's core with some flavor differences based on variation but this is basically them trying to replace mono red with mono white but still calling it mono red
At the store i got my 40k Minis a single tac marine squad was 60$
I think the firstborn issue goes beyond the issue of units being removed as its slowly removing the charm and quirkiness from the game and replacing it with a clean cut "you play space marines, here is your 4 options, two of which are good"
Your army feels less like "your dudes" now, i love my army that's a complete mishmash of scaled and aged CSM painted as iron warriors. The little things sre missing frim new kits i find, stuff like helmets and simple gear choices and stand out things like banners and special weapons that actually do something.
With a combination of point deflation and units becoming fixed and restricted while also not having any real army structure beyond character + everything else the game just doesn't feel the same and i started playing mid ninth edition. The ability to make your army your dudes is basically gone, there's no more secret combos or smart use of unirs you just put em on the board and they do whatever the datasheet says they do.
I doubt we'll go back on the simplification of the game because all that matters to the heads of GW is more money and more crack to sell but it's a shame to see the quirkiness of the game leave in favour of straight 180 gameplay and hobby.
I think its understandbale to be upset seeing ur entire army be phased out to where you have to buy new models. It happened to Fantasy with AoS and other 40k ARmies. I had both a huge Salamanders and Sisters armies from back in 4th edition and now they basically inert to use BC of these changes coming. TBF though the only thing stopping me from using my older Sisters models is I need new bases for them.
You either adapt and overcome or just stop buy GW stuff and take business elsewhere. It is one of thoise things though that was eventually gonna happen, the older SM models were used from 3rd Ed. on so they were already pretty old as well.
I won't be buying GW products anymore.
They’re fucking with it obviously.
I mean think of it how many good stories they can come up with using the firstborns showing the new recruits how it’s done and they did it. A primaris would exceed stat wise but a firstborn would take down opponents faster using their experience.
A primaris would run faster but the firstborn would use a shortcut and use less resources. The firstborns would always exceed on killing high level threats because they did it before.
Think how GW could use each chapter to tell the same plot but in unique,interesting and creative ways.
And then, once you've thought about how good that could be, remember that GW will never do that.
I only have one squad of firstborn due to how late I started the hobby but I love them so much bro. I prefer the old firstborn armor and customize my primaris to look more like them
So the thing that I like, is that the new assault marines they are just… Assault marines. Not Primarus Assault Marines.
Or with the terminators to use GW’s own words “They are neither primarus, or firstborn.”
Also, I know you said that its not a good thing that they’re splitting 40K into 40K and Horus Heresy.
I actually really like Horus Heresy, and one of my buddies is taking the Eldar 7th edition codex, and adapting it for Heresy. And so far, they’re not bad to fight against, nor are they bad to play.
And I think thats probably the best outcome. Fans make their own “Liber Xenos” and use heresy as a game of the Scouring…
GW said Terminators aint firstborn? Thats dumb... look at the old 40k's and how the are in HH... GW is far from their own legends.
check out the Liber Panoptica people, they're doing an Ork list, lots of house rules, new missions, game modes etc. I've played against their Eldar list for Heresy and it's quite good. captures the feel of 7th ed with some tweaks, cool rites of war and reactions, etc
Um no they are specifically assault intercessors with jump packs they are lacking all the first born gear options such as special weapons and evicerators
I play a mixed Templars army, Primaris, and First born. I love the flexibility of a firstborn Crusader squad out weighed the Intersessors. Now they are trying to replace them. the flexibility of even a single tac squad is noticeable, and should not be ignored. removing the first born squads is a tragic move, and should be held off. they want to make more money on old players, but older players will fight hardest to keep what they have.
My biggest gripe with them phasing out firstborn marine is that it is just a huge waste of the iconic design that is mk7 helmet. It is probably one of the most unique design for sci-fi helmet, that combine the ferocious nature of 40k with technology, and they just replace it with primaris's mk4-like helmet which just looks too-much like gundam
"[Horus Heresy] being only space marines."
Daemons, imperial army and mechanicum: are we a joke to you?
Not to mention how entirely separate each legion is rules wise.
Those other armies aren't that common for example in my entire city we have 150 HH players and only 2 have non marine armies
Their plan is to totally get rid of the old Space Marines so that you have to buy their overprice miniatures. First stop making them but get the sweet, sweet cash from their fan boyz. Then get rid of them completely by stating that they cannot be used any more. Since that is the way GW does business and one of the many reasons I stop buying their miniatures nearly two decades ago. I can proudly state that I do not and never will own any Primaris miniatures.
you are correct about 40k pre 8th ed being pushed into 30k. first of all the mk6 to sell rougue trader "nostalgia" and a predator with twin linked lascannons that were in the lore made after HH and you probably guessed why, to sell this to 40k players. the acctual 30k players DONT get what they want which is basic marine units that are NOT tactical marines.
Edit: i guarantee that GW will release "primaris firstborn" or some shit like that to sell truescale marines... AGAIN
As a dedicated First-born player, I wish they had just gotten it over with a long time ago. Dragging the process of updating your most popular range over the course of 6 YEARS is absurd. We all knew it was coming and at this point I just wanna have an easier time building my lists. I'm still gonna use Mark VI and VII armor proxies regardless of what the rules are.
Amen.
I just read the books man, I don't know what's going on over there with all those large tables and paint fumes.
Though I must say, I very much admire the bit where you speak about how getting mad would be a waste of energy. Very refreshing to hear that coming from a content creator.
I prefer the old marines. Not because I'm mired in nostalgia, but because I think those old marines look way more menacing and intimidating. The new vox grille on primaris bois looks aesthetically pleasing, yes. But that downturned frown on the old one's combines so perfectly with the slanted eye lenses. It's just downright menacing, and what you'd expect of the angels of death.
Hi Arthur, I'm Deez
*dog that has its mouth shaking wanting to say it*
Nuts who?
@@aharonswordofmagnus6721Ligma
Deez how?
Hi Deez, im Nut
They have already started blurring the lines between 1st Born and Pimaris but letting you put Primaris info Landraiders and such while saying the new Terminators are whatever you want them to be. I think in a couple more editions there will just be Space Marines
Which I think isn't as bad as people think imho
The issue is on a gameplay level first born and primaris go in extreme opposite directions firstborn are designed to be flexible units that can take on whatever they are thrown at and primaris are bad aspect warriors that are designed to fight a super specific foe so one of these play styles is gonna die
@@Theendisnear_ok let me brake down just how fucking wrong that statement is
Basic infantry the tactical squad can come with a heavy and a special weapon to allow them fight things their basic bolters can't beat ie it doesn't matter what it's in front of them they the tool in their options to fight it and have the stats to back it up
Assault marines also have access to tools that allow them to fight things that aren't just infantry they can melee to death while also being fast
Devastators literally your choice of heavy weapons and mix of them so you can have them lend support any situation
Predator tank both variants can tank hunt and infantry slaughter depending on your load out
I can keep going with pretty much every unit the first born units had for the longest time the tools that they can be kitted out to be able to fight anything with some level of success or be dedicated to a single role that's flexibility that's the core of their playstyle and why they made such a brilliant new player army even if your positioning isn't ideal you still had the tools to fight your way out of your mistakes with primaris if your positioning sucks you are just plain fucked and you lack the mobility to unfuck yourself fast it enough for it to matter
"First time?..." -Thunder Warriors
Ngl I've been into warhammer for over 6 years now and lately I've been thinking of buying Space marine minis as they are my favorite in the lore but with the 1st born being phased out I personally don't wanna get into it anymore. Primaris marines removed the defining characteristic of the blood angels and all of their successor chapters.
fyi that got retconned, the red thrist and black rage are still VERY much a thing.
I guess that helps me want to buy a little bit more but the 1st born being phased out still kinda sucks imo.
I think GW's biggest mistake was making the primaris marines in the first place. By creating and then introducing a type of space marine never seen before, that is better than the old ones in nearly every consivable way, and then flooding all the existing chapters with them would only cause a split amoung the warhammer community.
What they should have done is release the new space marines, but say that it's just new armor, weapons and equipment that they have. Perhaps Cawl would keep a few thousand or even tens of thousands in his laborotries so that they would reinforce the imperium, the only difference would be the equipment, training and combat doctrins. I think that that would have been alot easier to swallow for the community as a whole.
I absolutely agree with this. None of the other factions had a dump taken on their lore when GW decided to update their model lines but for some reason Space Marines did. Despite the fact that saying "True Scale Marines with a new mark of Power Armor" is one of the easiest things to do in order to justify the model line.
@@bumblingbureaucrat6110 I guess chaos will be the next ones to get a big fat primaris dump on their lore though😅
@@erih2934 hah! Yeah, guess Bile has some work to do
@@bumblingbureaucrat6110A dump is a very silly thing to call new lore
imagine if star wars had in return of the jedi, when everything felt the most hopeless, some random asshole we've never met or heard of before, kicked the door in to the second death star and went "HEY GUYS I'VE MADE 100 THOUSAND SUPER-DE-DUPER-JEDI IN MY BASEMENT AND THEY'RE HERE TO KICK EVERYONE'S ASS"
but they'd never do that
'cause it's dumb
really really really friggin' dumb
Honestly, we do one of three things in my group:
1. Take your models and glue them, with the base, onto the new base size. The little extra height that they get 9 times out of 10 makes them stand eye to eye with newer sculpts.
2. Play legends, or run them as the updated models. We do this in Horus Heresy literally every game, because there is no reason you shouldn’t be able to take a Castra ferrum dreadnought or a Phobos pattern land raider.
3. There’s like four of us who have 3-D printers, so it’s super common that we play official models with 3-D printed wargear. Those old tactical marines that aren’t legal anymore just became breachers, with shields they are 100% custom to your army. Etc, etc.
I get the game workshop has to sell models, we buy them to support our local store. What we’re not doing is letting our player base throw hundreds of dollars of models down the drain because James Workshop decided he had sold too many of those model over the years. 😒
What's gunna suck is even in 30k, you can't use your old Space Marines.
I imagine the GW execs in their boardroom, smashing their faces onto piles of coke while coming up with ideas of how to screw over their players even more.
Hasbro former CEO has entered the chat
What I find is the biggest shame about Primaris overtaking firstborn is the Aesthetic and Armor Marks. The Mark X armor is near universal with primaris; its boring. Palatable. Safe. Clearly designed for newcomers to the hobby.
What this lacks however is the flavor, the depth and interest of the Older marks, 3-8 Primarily. You had the frontloaded Mk 3 'Iron' which was deisgned for CQC and boarding actions and looked very heavy up armored on the front facing as a result. You had the famous mk 6 Corvus 'Beakies' that were designed with a suite of stealth technology in the helmet; hence the unique shape. You had the mk4 Maximus that looked like the grandfather to the mk X, or the famous mk 7 aquilla that had the traditional firstborn 'vader' look. And that was just with helmets; you then extended that to all the parts, arms, legs, power packs, shoulder pads, etc. Every Mark had its own feel, its own flavor.
That tied directly with the Knightly lore inspiration of Firstborn Marines. Every suit of power armor was passed on from owner to owner. Some parts were customized, swapped and mixed/matched by their users either due to tradition, personal taste, battlefield necessity or even cannibalized due to lack of spare parts. You could design entire chapters or companies with different concepts following this. Maybe one chapter had better supplies and thus complete sets of newer Armor Marks. Maybe one had a preference of use for one particular type; or one that often had a mixed up variation of pieces from various battlefield experiences. There was interest. There was unspoken storytelling to it. And it gave far more interest to the otherwise plain Space Marines.
Ironically it feels like an analogue for GW. That much like the Primaris, GW has lost that spark of creativity to a degree and everything is now uniform. Boring and samey.
Absolutely agreed. I hate nothing more about the current changes than the clear design of rules and boxes to limit own creations. Previously you had tons of different weapons and gear that were supported by the rules for your characters encouraging you to build you own heroes. Now you can use the exact model as everyone else. You can still do some customization to break up the primaris monotomy, but the rules keep you in check how far you can actually go with special loadouts.
I wasn't doing it for the 'optionmal' build, but chasing specific looks and roles for my characters and units independly of the current editions. Now I can just have primaris unit x or y.
New Age Of Darkness Tactical and Assault models?
@@fransaacs Age of Darkness has one weakness - they are done like Primaris models. It because of the rules (you can't split fire, so individual weapons make less sense), but also lorewise those are mass produced equipments - like primaris - not individual reliques kept functional over centuries.
This is the main reason why primaris marines are shit. They don’t fit the aesthetic of the game.
I just wanted to say this was a great video, well edited, I really enjoy your content.
As an outsider, I don't get why GW is doing this. This isn't shooting yourself in the foot by accident, this is taking your own leg off at the hip with a wiresaw because you can't get your boot off fast enough.
My thing with primaris marines initially was just that I didn't like their helmets lmao, but after that I thought it was interesting that there was a new class of marine that was inherently younger and less experienced than a firstborn and died a lot quicker despite technically being more powerful, it felt like there was a trade-off so it wasn't just a flat out upgrade, then they just became better marines and I started hating them because in my opinion it sort of defeats the point of the imperium as a setting to have them be able to make better weapons and armour and stuff, like the whole thing with them is that they're standing atop the shoulders of the giants that came before and adhering to a stagnant old ideology, so when caul was just like "actually no" and the whole setting didn't immediately come down on him it felt like the writers lost the plot for the sake of making something change in an interesting way (and also sell more models).
The thing to remember is that Games Workshop, Black Library, etc are not 40K, WE ARE. Alternate rule sets exist like One Page Rules, the Long War, and others are available. If you have older rule sets, you and your friends can use them, and those old rule sets lying around are becoming popular again in certain circles of folks. Tournament players have to use the current rule set like 10th, but casual players (which most of us likely are) can use whatever rules we like among friends. GW, nor anyone else, can stop that. We, as players, are 40K (or 30K or others), everyone should remember that.
It's funny because when you mentionned the idea of creating home rules based on old editions, it's essentially what I'm making with a friend of mine, since two years ago. It's based on 6th Ed. mostly but includes ideas we found interesting from Warhammer Battle 8th Ed, 40k 8th, 9th and 10th Eds as well. We finished to write the first take of the core rules on PC and we made the paper written rules for the Guard, Space Marines and Sororitas. We're currently working on the Orks. The whole is made in French as we are but once we have a interesting first version after some testing games, we'll translate it in English so that people like you can understand and test them.
And just about the Marines, there's a section for the 1st Born and another one with the Primaris. You cannot mix them in the same detachment but you can take one as an allied detachment. If I remember right, you made a video quite a time ago about the fact that you thought GW was transforming the Marines into some sort of Aspect Warriors, with ultra-specialized units, going entirely against the versatility of the Marines in the lore. I was pretty on board with you on that one and it gave me ideas on how to make the Primaris in our rules : by breaking this specialization and coming back to the core SM versatility.
What I don't like is how the squads have gone from really tactically flexible and built on all their options to pretty static in their uses. Infernus marines and Eradicators, for example, really only have one use to them
I am still an outsider to this hobby, and man, being a fan of GW's actual games seems, uh...hmm...rough? Rough. Like...I think the setting did need to change and evolve in some way, but...they probably could've handled it a lot better than they did. Feels like GW to an extent is trying to solve problems it created for itself. Seems like kind of a mess, really.
I think with the new edition while they are making new primaris sized models they’re phasing out the primaris keyword, so you could use old models if you wanted, but I might be wrong on that
theyve even explicitly stated that the new scale marine models i.e. termies, sternguard, scouts etc. aren't strictly primaris and in fact that either firstborn or primaris marines could be under the armor
That is only half true and sadly one of GW questionable statements about this topic - and the only reason I'm really sour about this issue.
Yes, the primaris keyword is gone, but welcome the 'tacticus' armor keyword every primaris model got that isn't the big chunk one or phobos - does it come up somewhere? Yes, as looking at transports we see that Rhinos and Razors won't be supported for newer models. So while the old Sternguard or Command squad could use those transports the new models can't, you need to get the new vehicles.
On top of that we are losing equipment options for units. Assault Jumpack Aggressors don't have the eviserator two-handed chainsword. Outriders lack all weapon options. Old command squads had adjustable gear, now you can use them just as they are on the box. Sternguard had also a massive cut in gear compared to the previous edition.
So there are sadly a lot of ways how GW screws up old Firstborn units for those who want to still use them. For me personally I would even rebuild them completely with (heavily) customized primaris because I prefer the old unit compositions, but at this point I'm quite certain GW will keep cutting options and rules that keep old armies functional forcing us into the new (sadly utterly bland) Primaris ways.
@@erih2934The move to a “*Units* melee weapon” like for Vanguard Vets is the way forward but they should have a light(Claws, swords, axes, mauls, chain swords) and heavy option(fists, thunder hammers, 2 handed weapons)
That being said basically wherever a unit says relic blade I’m happily subbing in lightning claws lol
@@DefaultProphet Yeah, with melee weapons I honestly don't mind it as much. But when I look at my new Company Heroes and then my old Company Command squad - that plasma cannon using heavy bolter rules doesn't sit well with me :D
As much as I support the simplification of melee weapons (especially since melee tends to have a lot of dice) I do even miss the combi weapon rules... I never cared about swords/axes/mauls for the small stat changes, but there was a reason I used meltas, plasmas or flamers in different units.
@@erih2934 combiweapons being one profile was a mistake I agree
Hi Arthur.
Will you talk about Rouge Traders when the Rogue Trader game releases?
What kills me the most about Primaris Marines, as much as I plan to include them in my 50/50 Firstborn/Primaris army as someone who was brought in during 9th, is that Marines have lost *all* tactical flexibility. Intercessors are just, riflemen, there's nothing special about them, no special weapon options, no heavy weapon options. They have lost all the tactical flexibility that their older brothers have had for the last 30 years. You can't have an Intercessor Squad that also has the capability to take on light tanks, or super-heavy elites, or have a little flexibility against hordes.
You want to deal with hordes? Infernus squads. Super-heavy Elites? Hellblaster and Eradicator Squads. (I'd have used Eradicators for vehicles, but in 10th, infantry aren't allowed to be very capable against vehicles unless they carry Lascannons, even Melta toting ones) Marines aren't Marines anymore. The Primaris line just makes them all Eldar. Intercessors? Dire Avengers. Assault Intercessors? Storm Guardians. Eradicators? Heavily armoured Fire Dragons. Desolators? Dark Reapers. Even the Suppressors look like a Marine-ified Shadow Specters or Swooping Hawks.
Not to mention a lot of the choice of wargear is now gone for Marine Characters. Combi-weapons are shit, and the only options Captains can take now other than Bolt Rifles is a Plasma Pistol. There's no choice anymore. And that kills me.
I really don’t understand why they didn’t just consolidate first born and primaris into Just marines
Ive been converting firstborn models into primaris models, gathering the parts for some inceptors, hellblasters and bladeguard atm 👍
My deathwatch will be clean 🙌
Id be happy if old firstborn marines had their armors released as upgrade kits for primaris armors. E.g classic rogue trader parts to stick on primaris armors to make them more M6. M7 helmets. The new horus herecy armors are NOT truescale they are miscaled on PURPOSE to keep people from using them in 40k, ive just gone for tortuga bay stuff to get truscale squads. The tac and devestator squads could continue as upgrade kits for primaris units. Thing is GW could just say you can use FB assault squads and put that on their datasheet, one side showing a FB one and the other side showing the primaris, there are better ways to do it.
And Im over here trying to source out and find the old Imperial Guard models and avoiding the new bigger scale ones to complete my kitbashed Acid Dogs army.. getting more and more difficult :(
I started to get fully into 40k once 10th edition came out, I honestly thought the reason they didn't want to update the models was because lore wise primaris are taller but since HH has true scale models that reason can eat dirt. I always see the Firstborn stuff and I think they're cool especially the unique weapons they can have, I love my primaris but man, I would love something to spice them up, I would totally be fine with having Firstborn marines that are true scale with my army, I could really go for some Devastators.
it is confusing that firstborn are getting upscaled, just for heresy and not 40k. I play heresy and it's a great game and community, but it's never going to catch on/sell like 40k. It's just weird that GW aren't trying to have the best of both worlds for this. I reckon firstborn will make a return to 40k in some form though, because the Heresy plastics have been selling well and at the end of the day, more space marines is basically their whole corporate strategy
@@paulyg405
That's what I'm saying, I hope they do that, but seeing as they've been removing the "primaris" title from models recently, I feel like they won't.
@@Mogeko_Rangermaybe.. maybe they see the firstborn as what makes Heresy unique and attractive to people who play it and too much crossover would hurt both brands? I don't see it but I get how they could maybe have that strategy in mind. I guess we don't know how big their long term plans for Heresy are. I guess more space marines is such a safe bet that you've got to assume Heresy will be bigger than LOTR and the other stuff they sell. With 40k, I wonder if grey knights might stay firstborn.. they need a range refresh. Otherwise it's just gonna be all new stuff for 40k since most factions have new models now
I like both, but firstborn more.
Some reasons for that is that barely no primaris have grav weapons, less legion specific and the heavy weapons squad are more divided instead of having one with various like the Devestator squad, also no company veterans anymore for Dark Angels.
The other issue is also that it feels both like it’s dumbed down as well as greedy. New primaris units are very static in their setup. So instead of buying two devastator kits and having enough bits to build a full squad of each weapon loadout (bodies taken from other kits) or even create unique combinations of weapons in their formation. With primaris you have to buy a new kit for each type of special weapon so you have to buy more to get the same/similar and even though most people run their units with as much of the same weapon anyway it’s just annoying that the option to choose and customize is taken more and more.
They even reduce choice for the Primaris units too. Intercessors used to have separate stat lines for the three Bolt Rifle types they could take.
@@Calvin_Coolage granted for a lot of the weapons the difference was much of a muchness basically boiling down to which keyword do you want and the strength and damage stat
Primaris Marines are a copyright resolution for GW (now Warhammer). They can't copyright Space Marine but the can Astartes. And the list goes on. They can now control model used in tournaments. They can now follow the lore, because why would you at this stage continue to create new 1st Gen Space Marines (in lore)? Why would you create new 1st generation models if the lore doesn't have them? The lore is influencing the models now. What is selling in lore is getting new models.
Im a new player. I think the models needed to be updated. I also think putting that model update into the lore is the dumbest thing I have ever seen
Jeedubs doesn’t care about what we think. Only that we give them money. I’m not saying it makes any sense, just callin it as I sees it.
I'm one of those people still mad about Fantasy. I have wistful thoughts about my Bretonnians sitting on my shelf gathering dust. Thankfully the Total War: Warhammer games are there to scratch that itch for me.
My only real issue was that the way the Primaris were introduced was incredibly clumsy. We are supposed to believe that a random tech priest managed to squirrel away the immense resources required to create, train and outfit several legions worth of Astartes with a superior design without anyone even having an inkling as to what was going on. And that apparently the majority of existing Astartes were completely fine with this. And I can’t believe that the Inquisition were particularly pleased something of this scale escaped their notice.
And that somehow guiliman hasn't decided to just re-instate the legions filled with primaris marines while using chapters to defend imperial territory/carry out specialized missions. It completely messes up the balance in the setting.
Wasn't a "random" tech priest it was THE techpriest.
the Inquisition have been neutered by the changes in the lore I reckon. They don't have much of a purpose anymore in a universe where marines are better, and everywhere, Guilliman is back and no one cares about chaos anymore. There's no mind wiping or exterminatus now, everyone is just oh yeah they're the bad guys. Inquisitors have become like private investigators or something
i love the models and some books , the setting is really fun i keep change my favorite faction because there so many things about each one but i could never get into the game I've been a fan since 8th edition and target audience (new player out da womb) i can never understand it and it's been driving me crazy that the base game is unplayable to me and get rid of the firstborn is never going to fix that
Great video man. I think that running some sort of concurrent AWH 7.5 would be the most favorable outcome in the long term. I think it would provide GW with some added flexibility in a lot of ways. I think they could smooth some edges out with something like that. Using HH as a stopgap isn't going to work in the long run and honestly I think could be to the detriment of that game system. I can understand why GW wanted to make changes ultimately this has been indelicately to say the least. However I don't have the bandwidth to be outraged by this just more disappointed and hopeful they learn from this.
See?!
This is why you join Chaos Space Marines!
I started collecting a SM army that is Firstborn-centered. That's not to say I own no primaris figures, but I wanted things like Tactical Squads, Razorbacks (lol), and old school Dreadnoughts (not FW, just the regular kind) to feature in the army. And to have about enough models to make a full 2k firstborn marines, if I wanted to.
And GW is trying to make me regret that. At this point I might say we can start using Firstborn as "stand in" old school models for some current SM units. Sternguard and the like. But Tactical marines will never be intercessors.
Also scared that my older Guard models are going to get squeezed out of playability (We can debate about whether it needed an update visually, but changing the base size? Really?). I don't think they are necessarily going to be as obsolete as Firstborn, but worrisome.
Lorewise, I think the Terminus Decree makes it possible that when it is unleashed, the genetic weapon could kill all firstborn Marines but maybe leave the Primaris untouched, them being of different genetic makeup.
Don't give Black Library ideas
Holy fuck stay away
Sounds like a Hitler move
knowing GW if they do that, they'll use it as justification for stopping the production of the firstborn models for 40k... and likely up the price of the primaris boxes because of "projected increases in demand"
Edit: and because the company can't seem to plan their factory side of things along with moves like this, they won't expand the primaris model production either until 1 to 2 years after this move
@@robrib2682 They'll also use it to go "See guys? 40k is still grimdark!!!!"
*The great replacement*
My bugbear with Primaris is they all have the slotted faceplate helmet rather than the traditional one.
I like the old one as it's iconic but also cos it looks like Tahu from BIONICLE.
All they had to do was refresh the Space marine models. 'Firstborn' *never* got a decent truescale kit until that mk6 HH box. They look incredible. That's all GW had to do in 8th. Make the models really pretty and all the 'old heads' would have bought them to replace their older units. Just like they did when they updated their Rogue Trader plastic tactical squads or their 2nd Edition Predators. The Mk6 and 7 suit is an iconic look. The primaris suit is fine, but it changes the aesthetic in a way I just never took to.
I’m making an intercession Templar kill team using the firstborns with propped up correct bases. If it can work for the game then it works for me. But for stuff like this it’s a shame cuz besides the technical stuff the og designs look so much better.
Edit: I feel that if the primaris were more of a specific unit or 2 instead of the whole replacements for the marines then people would’ve taken it better. Like a half level custode for the chapters.
I preferred the aesthetic of the firstborn a lot. I grew up with 3rd edition which lasted much longer than the others. 4th was basically just a continuation of 3rd. Back at the start of 3rd the art style felt more like a comic book. This perfectly explains why the marines were proportioned the way that they were. These proportions were directly translated into the first Dawn of War video game. Nowadays everything looks true scale and with much more detailed realistic art, and I think that's sad. As you said evolution in any kind of entertainment business is necessary for it to survive, but I think 40K as I loved it died with the introduction of the Primaris marines. And that's ok. Things die. It's not gone, just a fond memory. Now the children will grow fond of whatever this is I guess. Now I know why all the old people complain about being old.
Tbh, I really wish that GW would maybe just remake the Firstborn models, just like what they're doing with the Chaos Space Marine line.
Personally, if primaris marines had just been like these terminators ie upscaled and then they had added a few new units like "The Gravis Squad" and "The Phobos Squad" and a new tank, I would have had far fewer issues with them.
However, as it stands, the Primaris were a change in the 40k universe lore and the minature line, that I did not like. The rules of 10th have, personally, been crappy. I'm happier using the few primaris minautres I like in older editions, than using older minatures in these newer editions.
One major issue from the Phobos squad is...what is the point of a scout squad anymore? And GW's approach of 5 units filling one niche is an obvious marketing thing rather than a "better for the game and consumer" thing
The primaris didnt seem necessary. A new range of models would have neen cool and just as successful (the 30k ones look amazing), i dont even mind the phase out of old models. GW could have still had Cawl making some new toys and new armour marks (which seemed necessary in the era indomitus) and could have even had the indomitus crusade with Cawl using stokepiled geneseed to create new chapters, including not traitor geneseed ones. The horus heresy is cool, and im tempted by so many of the cool models but they seem like they dint fit in 40k now, which goes agaisnt the setting of stangant empire that hasnt progressed.
Im a fan of the new lore and story progression, and i just dont like the primaris.
From the business point of view, to force all the owners of the most sold faction of a miniature game to replace their whole collection is a fantastic move, at least on paper (and despite the angry people, a success). Lore-wise, I think it is OK. 10,000 years are more than enough to produce a minimum of technological development
@@andresperedo1275 I get the business decision, but they've replaced old models before. Like I say, even the Mark 10 armour I'm cool with, new dreadnought and hover tanks etc all good. I just think the primaris aren't good story wise. And I disagree on the 10000 years point. 10000 years of stagnation makes sense if it's illegal to innovate, but if even cawl was given 10000 years to innovate he should have come up with more than he did in my opinion. It seems more like he made the stuff he did and sat on it for a few thousand years until G man returned
@@richardround2071 the thing is that Cawl did not come up with nothing, the primaris project was found somewhere (I guess in the solar system).
The short novel "Sons of Selenar" tells the story, back from the time of the Siege of Terra
@@andresperedo1275 oh really? Didn't know that thank you
@@richardround2071 I don't want to just spoil you the novella, if you have interest :)
I put it best in another comment I made on a different video about Primaris Marines, so I'll just copypaste most of it here.
I still don't like them. This is mainly because rather than selling my house for some small plastic men, the way I've always enjoyed Space Marines is for their lore, and more importantly, the vibes they gave off (it certainly helps that I was first really introduced to the setting via the FFG RPGs). Proper Space Marines just hit different, and in ways that Primaris Marines simply can't, and may never hit. They'll forever feel like a different faction pretending to be Space Marines rather than feeling like Space Marines. I have always had warmer feelings for the Tau and even the Dark Eldar than I may ever have for the Primaris. Anything having to do with Primaris Marines, or even this new age of the setting feels like a different setting to me, and doesn't have that appeal that the setting had to me before. A dying and decaying Imperium, a forever-plotting Chaos, a fading Eldar, and an ever-encroaching Tyranid swarm. The changes brought on by 8th edition just felt completely out of left-field and like it just happened out of nowhere for no reason. Even Guilliman's resurrection felt so very out-of-place to me, and like an impossibility of the setting had just happened, like a rule had been broken.
well said
Honestly, I just want the Aquila style vox grill helmet to make a comeback. The rest of the MK10 armor looks fine, the bolters are pretty damn cool, but the helmet just looks like scuffed Maximus
After seeing the changes made in 10th, my few friends that play 40k and I decided to stick with 9th, and the culling of old marines has kinda bit us in the ass as half the Space Marine codex disappears
That being said, we're basically just doing our own Firstborn upscaling by taking Intercessors/Assault Intercessors, kitbashing some old parts onto them, and then just playing them as the Firstborn counterparts
And after seeing 10th's merging together of Primaris and Firstborn into just 'Space Marines' (eg. Primaris can use firstborn transports, Terminators can be either Firstborn or Primaris), I'm currently in the process of tweaking the rules and statlines of units to do the same.
For example; Tactical Squads and Primaris Intercessors get rolled together into 'Tactical Intercessors'; the better stats and bolt weapons of Primaris, with the extra special/heavy weapons of Tactical Squads
Working title, but we call it 'Battle-Mallet 40,000,000: legally destinct 9.5th edition'
It's not even just about the models, the models are a symptom, not the problem. The problem was something happened within the company leading up to and now continuing past 8th edition.
The primaris marines are just where it is most easily seen. I've flirted with 40K since I was a small child and I've been into it properly for about a decade now. I loved the old 40K; it was silly at times, but mostly brutal and that's what I loved the setting for. As part of humanity, you knew "hey this is it", it was a last stand and no matter how heroic you were, humanity was going to lose and everything would become a never ending Nine Inch Nails concert. Even the space marines, humanities heroes suck. The reason why the Salamanders stick out so much is because they're heroes. Every other marine out there sees human life as cheap and in comparison to them, 1000 civilians are worth less than a single marine. They are humanities saviors, not human saviors, they are angels of the old testament and amongst them were murderers, rapists, cannibals, psychopaths. Aptly put in one Horus Heresy book discussing a dreadnought of the Iron Hands, "if he were born on any other world, he would have been put into the basement of an insane asylum, locked away and forgotten, but because he was born on Medusa, they made him into a marine." That encapsulates the experience.
But then 8th comes along and they made the conscious shift to become more mainstream. No one wants their heroes to be devoured in the mainstream, no one wants the good guys to be devoid of emotion and filled with contempt for common humanity. They want something cleaner, they want star wars. I understand why they did it, I just don't like it, I liked my dark fantasy but now the setting is closer to star wars than the book of Revelation
I started collecting Warhammer 40k at the start of 9th Edition when Primaris were more entrenched. I started collecting Primaris and have specifically been avoiding Firstborn models because I have always presumed that they're on their way out. If anything, I'm "the enemy" in this scenario.
Also, as someone who got into Age of Sigmar first, I have a feeling that "First Striking" designs are going to be phased out for Thunderstrike redesigns, as per the upcoming AoS strategy game having Thunderstrike pattern Liberators, which don't have a model announced YET... but you know it's coming. So I kinda get it, but the transition hasn't started yet.
I joined at this time too and I avoided firstborn marines because their models are ugly as shit and badly proportioned, only bought the firstborn accessories since those actually looked cool and am giving them to my primaris
@@TheExostranger.I was doing the exact same thing. I just couldn’t get behind the look of the firstborn
I think I avoid Firstborn because my army of primaris only go with each other, but if they had it, say a Firstborn character that can only lead Firstborn marines was able to lead Intercessors, I'd honestly buy them. But I'm not gonna buy Tactical marines just to make that happen.
I know GW is probably doing this to make some money, but it's going to have a lot of unintended side effects.
They're going to break the trust of a lot of customers if they ignore the older players who like the Firstborn more.
Too late for that, I'll never buy another GW product again. I will not be forced to buy an entire new army because of their predatory marketing.
My SoH loyalist homebrew will never die
I do love the look of primaris mariens, but i do have issues with them. I am mainly worried about what will become of the devastator squad. Considering primaris squads are a lot less modular than first born counterparts.
You already have your answer legended and now you have to buy their dedicated primaris version for each gun
@@michaelkeha And I already have my answer, which is, never buy a GW product ever again.
@@winstonsmith8482 A smart answer
As someone who doesn't really play the game and just enjoys to paint / model, the primaris to me just aesthetically are very dull. Just compare the intercessor squad with the tactical squad; while a worse scale, the firstborn squad has so much variety with its torsos, legs and other bits that it gives a lot more possibilities to convert and add more personality to your army. Meanwhile with the primaris, there is little to no difference between each of them. I understand that in the lore they should be similar, but as a hobbyist it's very boring when I'm on my 17th primaris marine. I was really hoping to see something like the blood angels space marine heroes truescale firstborn as a standard box but I doubt GW will do anything.
My main issue is that every Primaris kit feels incredibly mono-pose. The same goes for HH, the new Mk3 marines have the same poses as the Mk6.. In a game like HH where you can "technically" field over 100 marines or more for a single army, having the same 5 poses for the bulk of the army is very boring and immersion breaking. But back with the Primaris kits, they are nice kits to build and paint, but they feel "off"...
For me the change harkens back to the “lodges” that formed within the legions and we’re used to advance the Horus Heresy. That’s how I’ve couched my Marines attitude towards the primaris marines.
With me, there is so much in warhammer that is amazing. The community, the combat, hell even other adaptations of it like in Roblox or VRchat. This change feels like it’s been a long time coming and we can scream and cry all we want but some things are meant to die or be removed. However, the legacy will live on with the community. As long as we keep enjoying our favorite game and have a good time, we will get past this and find new ways to enjoy Warhammer 40k.
Primaris conceptually is fine, the biggest issue i have with them is their design moving much further to a tacticool scifi look from a gothic religious look. Like they removed the religious element of the astartes and placed it all in the sisters of battle and that's dumb.
In older editions, when the models had less detail, it was also like that. That is just your personal perception
Space marines aren't supposed to look like they just walked off an assembly-line. Primaris are the Honda Civics of the 41st millennium.
There's no tactical squad option for primaris, just whatever weapons the box has, like eldar aspect warriors. Plus the new scale of the primaris effects how much they are seen by enemies and what they could hide behind, changing their gameplay.