I wonder if wargamers are a dying breed. ww.patreon.com/letstalktabletop #hobby #wargame #warhammer #warhammer40k #dnd #gamesworkshop #warhammerageofsigmar
I am 53 and just started wargaming( 5 months ago). I bought one starter set of some kind from warhammer. Then, while watching UA-cam videos on wargaming, found onepagerules. So I got a resin 3d printer and went to town. My 10 and 12 year old daughters have each painted their armies. And my 7 year old son wants an army as well. I have several grand daughters who are also interested. One of which has already played a couple of games. So, I printed her an army as well. I could never have afforded to buy this many armies. I also like how simple the rules can be for the kids. Especially the free core rules. As the girls learn more, we introduce more advanced rules based on the child. My goal is to get about half my kids playing and eventually all 9 of my grandkids.
Good for you! For some similarly figure agnostic games that can use the same figures at reasonable prices with different takes on rule design, check out rules from Osprey Games and Two Hour Wargames.
I have not tried OPR since I had started with D&D->MTG->WHFB->and finally The Ninth Age (T9A). T9A is a great system that is based off of GW WHFB (before they killed it off) and they have refined/clarified the rules, created a starter version (Essence of War) which is
@@h.s.lafever3277 Sorry mate, I thought it was hard enough being in Australia trying to find other wargamers, couldn't imagine how it would be in Alaska...😅
I think a new shift to indie skirmish games is making wargames more cheap and accessible. Some games only need like five bucks for rules, a teeny little table and about 4-6 minis to start or like 10 for two people.
That certainly has to help, but Warhammer still soaks up all of the attention unfortunately. I think many people take one look at the prices of Warhammer and assume that is all wargaming.
Things like SAGA and Bolt Action are very approachable. Bolt action you can play with 2 $30 boxes of figures (1 a side), a handful of dice and the rule book. SAGA is the same. I think Frostgrave is good for a similar reason.
@@LetsTalkTabletop yeah it sure does suck. I recently got into turnip 28 tho and that’s an absolute blast. Also point of entry is like £40 for a full army of forty guys.
@@LetsTalkTabletop What warhammer and GW also does. Is increase the prices of cheaper wargames. Since well. If wargamers pay that much for warhammer. We can also get away with more.
Not true, all my friends and me are getting $800 lego star wars sets and all other kind of expensive collectibles. We just dont want to play warhammer. Rules change faster than our desire to learn new rules as this is not a game for casual players. The amount of learning and work and painting is not worth it to play a handful of games every year. Barrier to entry is too high. We actually went to a warhammer tournament and all people were excited to hear the lore, excited to see models and paintjobs, but they were visibly confused and suffering through the rules. I mean painting your figures and learning rules for a month just for most of your army to be obliterated during first turn shooting before you can even make a turn does not seem enjoyable. I can just start working or put my effort into something else.
@@WrathAmon1it is true to some point and I have gotten this from friends who run a gaming store and who are parents and they will tell you cost is a major sticking point, but not the only thing.
To answer your two questions: 1) Children = None. If you asked me a decade ago, I would have said 15-20. The numbers are gone for reasons listed further below. As for adults, I live in Minneapolis, which is nearly considered the mecca of all gaming. We have over 20 shops without even counting the greater metro area. 2) I started at 15. I saw the Rogue Trader book at my local comic shop, and that was the beginning of the end. Though I did collect D&D figs by Citadel/Partha/Foundry/etc. since I was 7. But that was just because I had $0.50 to $0.75 burning a hole in my pocket and I saw a cool fig I liked. Never painted until my mid 20's. Only ink washed the bare metal. On the topic of the rest of the video: Frostgrave and Deadzone are probably the best in class (price and time investment), while being criminally underrated for the rules they offer. These should be what the banner wavers direct noobs towards. Game shops, however, are dying. Often by their own hand, because many try to charge for gaming space, which nullifies the entire premise of "Pay where you play" to be able to use their game space. If I am going to be charged for it, I may as well buy everything from amazon, and just stay home and game. Why should I buy a Warcry set and other assorted stuff for the game, only to be told I have to pay $10 every hour I game? They may as well tear out all gaming space and make it only retail, if the space is that precious. Online shopping was already a problem, but quite a few game shops (at least here) are attempting to nickel and dime everything to death, turning their stores into microtransactions. To the point where I am opting out completely from the ecosystem. Thus, the exposure is decreasing for more reasons than merely the ridiculous premium GW puts on their products (even though thats a huge reason too). We are definitely regressing back to the before times, when hardcore wargamers were making their own rules and playing chit based games from companies like Avalon Hill, etc. during the 60's. Dark times, but they also caused a complete paradigm shift, since folks like Arneson, Gygax, Ansell, etc. created weird wargames and basically the entire industry of miniatures as we know it today. I feel the winds of change, and its name is 3d printing. Bank on it. Because GW sure as hell isn't. And those who grasp this new thing will surely see GW under their heels.
heck even my local store(Not GW). That sells all the warhammer stuff. Tell people. To try out 3d printing. And even offers advice for it. Because they know even with 3d printing. People will buy some real models. Just to ad to it. And the barrier to entry is big. And they are also wargamers themselves.
I only paint, but I just got a set of Frostgrave minis and was pleasantly surprised at the level of detail. Also they're so much more modular than GW minis. Really impressed.
I’m the grandfather of our wargaming group. I’m in my 70’s. I got into wargaming when my two sons were 10 and 12 respectively and wanted to play warhammer. That was 30 years ago. Needless to say we purchased 3 starter boxes and went from there. Now 4 of my grandsons are into warhammer and wargaming. So with us it is a generational hobby that we have come to enjoy as a family, and also with our local wargaming group. In fact, I have given several armies away to younger players who could not afford the initial cost!
When have there ever been a lot of kids into wargaming? When I started as a teen (in the early 90s) I knew three other people around my age who were in to wargames. Most the wargamers I know today didn't actually get into it until their twenties or thirties (including some who flirted with GW in their teens, then stopped for a few years). They're also less likely to have started with GW (in fact a fair few came over from D&D and the like). For that matter, I have yet to meet a historical wargamer (well, outside of Bolt Action) that wasn't a greybeard, and I'm reasonably sure (okay, about 50/50 if I'm honest) they don't spring into being fully formed in their mid forties. I think there's always been a bit of a split between those of us who came in early - usually via GW, and probably these days the licensed Star Wars or Marvel stuff - because we really wanted to play with big stompy robots or magical elves, and those who come in a bit later via an interest in history, or artistry, or just a hobby that doesn't involve screens.
Okay, I’m 66, just to give you perspective. Cost is certainly an issue, but, as you said, that’s an issue for everyone, not just kids. I think it’s just a cultural/technological issue, more than anything else. When I was a kid, everyone played board games. Okay, not war games, things like monopoly and clue and risk. But the activity was there. Same with building models. Almost every boy built plastic models. Some just cars, but most did tanks and planes and ships as well. There just wasn’t much else to do other than watch 📺. But with phones and consoles and pc’s there’s just too many easier and less demanding sources if similar entertainment. Not many people ride horses anymore either.
GW's model is get a new player that can buy a big starter box, that person will then spend on paints and accessories over about 18 months then quit. Hence getting the most money up front. Its basically the life insurance sales model.
You hit the nail on the head. The cost of entry and the instant gratification of games really hurts getting the younger people starting. I don't know any Childern who play but I did start young. I was playing army men before high school
It's not necessarily the instant gratification. It's more the engagement. It's harder to keep someone's attention when you're taking 45 fucking minutes to end your turn because you have a 100+ model army, than it is to play on a unit activation basis with 20-30 models each.
Back in the late '80 when I went to elementry school it was pretty common for boys to have a box filled with plastic soldiers/army men. At least in the place where I grew up. They would go pretty well with the die cast toy cars. Matchbox even made both. Also board games where pretty common. So in 5th or 6th grade if you stumbled upon Space Crusade/Star Quest the transition was easy.
@@Dominik189 That only becomes an issue if you allready started wargaming and have a rather sizable army. Its also more or less 40k specific. When you start you will play small games with the miniatures that you allready have. Which might only be a single squad that comes in one box. Even 40k with its archaic turn structure is quick when each player only has 10 minis. From there on it starts to grow and become slow. The real problem IMHO is getting to this point in the first place. I fully agree that there is little appeal of the wargaming hobby for somebody who is not allready into it. Its not mainstream. There is little exposure. Kids do not play board games to the same extend as 30 years ago anymore. So the concept of rolling dice and game mechanics are not that familliar to them. A major point IMHO is the decline of brick and mortar stores. In toy stores and especially the FLGS there would be lots of exposure to all sorts of games. The internet makes stuff for the hobby easily accessible BUT there is little exposure outside of what you know. Nobody really browses and online store like a real store. The social interaction also is missing. In a games store people can point out to you that GW products are hideously expensive and there are much more affordable alternatives. You also can see people playing games that you might not know about. All of that is more or less gone. Since GW and 40k is the most present in the internet they have a massive advantage in exposure. The high price point will than scare young people away. If they like the style and lore they can easily and cheaply pick up a 40k theme computer game or app.
Started at 13 with Rogue Trader in 89, got my son interested in wargames when he turned 17. Our LFGS is all adults with most in the mid 20 to mid 30s. The teenagers mostly play DnD or MTG. Price points are the biggest issue, my son has expressed concern for the cost bc I buy for him. We've also watched parents turn down their children after seeing the price of GW minis.
Hey I just want to say, I’m 13 walking down the road and stumbled into a store, they gave me a free mini to paint and I got hooked, got my mom to buy me the starter pack, and eventually managed to buy a primaries intercessor marine pack, but man is it expensive corporate greed is no joke 😅 I don’t even know if I can afford it especially in my country
57 life time table top player all time favorite is Battletech! Still love it today. You can get started for as Low as $ 30 or invest in a starter box for $60 and you can play endless missions and go no further. Collect more books and units and bigger battles
I couldn't agree more. Left GW to play Battletech. No regrets. Very complex rules though...kids wouldn't play it with me for that reason alone. Alpha strike maybe? But I've given up on bringing them in for now.
If GW would drop prices and increase production to put their products into department stores such as Walmart and Target, that would fix a lot of the issues.
Hard agree. I'll add that it isn't just the budget that's keeping the next generation out of the hobby, when box stores becoming fewer and farther between there's no place to go as an entry point.
@@TheSegert Didn't say it wasn't, its just isn't the only thing. Younger people these days are driving much less than previous generations. If your only game store is more than a town away, that's certainly a barrier. Meanwhile the competition (videogames) is just a click away.
This is a topic that comes around as regular as clockwork, it has been prevalent in the hobby since I began back in 1986. It was a constant question asked in the magazines of the time and is still being asked forty years later just in different formats. Kids had other distractions then, and yet some of them still wargamed, same as today. I recently went to the Partizan and Salute shows and the amount of kids there with their parents was incredibly encouraging. However, wargaming is naturally something that attracts older people, due to things you mentioned, more disposable income, more time, more patience, etc. So, as the older wargamers pass away new ones join the ranks, just in their adulthood, rather than as kids. It is a perpetual cycle and if the two recent shows were anything to go by the hobby is as healthy and active as it ever has been.
I'm sure what you're saying is true, but we also don't live in a vacuum. Times can change and past results are no indicator of future gains, as the stock market says. Never before have we had so much to occupy young people's time that was free and cheap and easy. I don't think it's the same scenario as it has been in yesteryear. I guess we will have to see! I'm not saying the children aren't in it at all, I'm just saying if you look at the comment section the vast majority of us got into it as a teenager and the vast majority of us don't know any teenagers who play.
@@LetsTalkTabletop at our club this week were two teenagers playing Chain of Command. I know that's anecdotal, but kids have huge barriers in front of them when getting into wargaming, so in order for kids to get into it need adults to guide them. You mentioned your kids friends are interested in your models, have them play a game, organise a painting and modelling session at your place or even the FLGS. I'm not putting the onus on you, I'm merely pointing here that there are things we as the older crowd can do to encourage youngsters into the hobby.
I don't know if you missed it or not, but in my video I said that I run a Warhammer club at the local library for teens. You're right, it does lower the barrier for entry when veterans help out the new guys.
@@LetsTalkTabletop apologies, you did indeed. How about suggesting to the Warhammer kids that they might want to try something else one week? Something with a lower barrier for entry and to introduce them to the wider world of gaming? You may already do this, but if you've got a captive audience already...
I sense what you are talking about is perhaps gaming or games of war. Traditional wargaming is a very different beast which really trying to examine and test a hypothesis. It also seeks to explore history in depth if it is geared towards historical battles.
You nailed it with the choices (digital) available today. We had very little and made up rules for green and brown army men "wargames". We also had an 8-Track player back then too!
Great points in this video! I’m a huge advocate for Mantic Games and the way they make (war) gaming accessible. But they capture a tiny proportion of the market compared to the big boy. Started wargaming: 8 years old (1988) with my dad Club mates ages: 25-65 Could name 1 Wargamer under 20, as someone’s son who played kings of war
I'm 51 and started playing AD&D in the 10th grade (1989) and started playing 40K when i was stationed at Ft Hood in 1994, our group runs from players in their early 60s (my older friends) to their early 20s (my son who's 23 and his friends). i think we have a different world now than when I/we were younger. computers and E-gaming is a big part of that. GW does not care about long-term players (the marshmallows) or the young players who are trying to learn to play (no gaming in their stores). they want the power gamer addicts and the starter army sales to people who want to try the game and they don't care if you keep playing because their "business model" already made the money off you that they had projected with your "buy-in"... i tell people to try other things OR buy used/knock off stuff for 40k and fantasy as you just cant afford this game at GW shelf price... and stay away from GW sanctioned tournaments as they are basically toxic cesspits of competitive asshats 🙂
It’s a lot more expensive to get into war gaming and the PC war gaming and RPG experience is a lot better than it was when we were younger. We now have games like total war Warhammer and Balders gate 3. When I was younger the best PC game was age of empires. Best way to get into Warhammer is to buy 3rd party miniatures, get the rules online for free and then learn to play and paint that way. I am getting into the old world and I am starting with a 1250pt army and will not go to a 2000pt army until I’ve had a few solid games in.
15 or so, did my first mail order to GW, collected grenedier minis, rest from airfix,matchbox,and eschi and started making my own, peaked around 20 but declined after 30, more watching than doing it. I was playing my own games younger with Britains using ruler and rubberbands and the artillery which fired matchsticks when lost plastic ammo
The problem is too much of the wargaming hobby (especially on UA-cam) is focused on nothing but Warhammer. Once you get away from that and find either smaller skirmish games for the low model count, or miniature agnostic games where you use whatever cheap mini's that are the right size and look like what they are, you get games that are much more friendly to new players.
You're 100% right. But unfortunately it's that snake eating its tail again, where Warhammer based videos get the most views so people make more Warhammer videos which of course expose more people to warhammer.
I'm a 27 year old. I got into wargaming first through Frostgrave when I was 19 or 20, as a way to get more use out of my D&D minis collection. Warhammer 40k was my first "real" wargame, which I got into at 23. In the last year, I've been trying to branch out into other games like Conquest & Malifaux. Having adult money & adult time feels crucial to being able to collect & play these games. Most newcomers to my gaming group are starting at around the same time I did, and like me, they are also participating because they need a community. Lots of young people who just finished college & need a place to be that isn't work or home. We've got a thriving Kill Team community because the barrier to entry is so much lower, and I'm working on getting Malifaux off the ground.
There are some nice games around you can start with a few minis. I recommend Warlord´s "Achtung! Panzer" which needed only 2-3 Tanks per side and comes at the same scale as Bolt Action. Or Tank Wars, which is the tank skirmish for Bolt Action, I would recommend 4-7 tanks per side. One could start with a these and later paint the infantry for Bolt Action. We also need to step down from the high painting standards Games Workshop has set in the gaming world. It really frustrates new players when they buy expensive minis and mess them up.
For me, the wargaming seed was planted when I was a kid. I bought a few GW models, but never really understood the concept of codexes, etc. There was no real internet back then and I didn't have anyone to explain how the game worked so the models just sat in my closet. I didn't really get into it until my early 30s. And then I started a UA-cam channel to offset the cost of it lol
I started with D&D back as a freshman in high school (junior nearly a senior now) and started painting minis around Christmas. At one point I thought I was getting into something that my friends and family could get into, and while I have convinced 2 of my younger cousins and a friend to look into it and maybe do some painting with me. I am probably the only person in my high school who war games.
I want to add to this, that there is a patience that comes with most hands on hobbies. Sadly maybe the future generations that are primed on dopamine games and tablets won’t even be able to find it engaging enough. I worry what this jump into the digital world with out fully thinking will lead to travesties similar to those we are now addressing of the Industrial Revolution growth; but these maybe more in sociology form and loss of so many arts and skills. Maybe we won’t even notice as there won’t be a comparative, similar how we romanticize medieval times but in reality have no real day to day concept of how it really was.
While this is mostly true and I do agree, I think we'll find them preferring to slow down and take a step back from the psychic assault that being constantly plugged into the digital world brings. The ones seeking peace may find some of it in the hobby. After all, gardening, home renovation, cooking - sure, all live giving pursuits, but creative expressions stemming from aesthetic preferences, all the same.
Back when Warhammer 40K 8th Edition was released (2017), I attended a release party event that included about a dozen players. I had my Rogue-Trader era Eldar with me that day, and I recall one of the attendees coming up to me and saying, "Dude! Your miniatures are ANCIENT." I was flattered and saddened at the same time....my models were older than most of the people attending the event.
I’m in the UK, my first warhammer purchase around 1998 was a £5 box - a combat squad, which was the same sculpt type as the 3rd edition box (which was just released). I left the hobby and when I came back around 2009, they had those small push fit cadians/orks/eldar. This was a great low barrier to entry, but I don’t think they have that now. They are living off nostalgia, a new low barrier to entry is required.
I got started at 11. I know a couple of dozen wargamers aged 30 plus, and two children who play. One of those children is my son, but he has a fairly active club at his school playing mostly 40k and Age of Sigmar.
Excellent video! I have been war gaming since the 70’s- it’s always been a hobby for “older people “ (mostly older men) - it’s like collecting cars- young people can’t afford to do it ( they have neither time nor money) older people have both time and money- just wait-children Role players will mature into table top war gamers- the hobby has been “dying” since its creation
Thanks! I'm not sure I agree with you though, if you read the comments in this video I was pretty much spot on with my assumption. Most people started wargaming in their teens and they are in their 30s or 40s now, and most of them don't know any teenagers or just a handful. There's definitely been a dynamic change. It might be societal, or technological, or economic, but there's definitely a change from the '80s and '90s. I do know what you mean though, people cry that the sky is falling all the time. But I think there's a little more to this.
I got into it at 14 my school had a 40k club at lunch times, i'm now 39. I mainly collect now as i have a family, i tried getting my sons into it but they have no interest.
Great video, It is not just wargaming that is dying because of the cost and the digital age, I went with my Dad to a model Railway show in Scotland not long ago it was packed with people, I am in my 50s and I felt like I was the youngest person in the room the new generation of kids are just not interested.
Thanks for watching! Yeah, I think model trains are ahead of the curve on the aging of their population. When I think about it, I feel like that is the ultimate luxury hobby. You need a ton of room to set up your train, a ton of time to buy and build all of that stuff, and then a ton of patients and solitude to use it. I see exactly what you're saying.
PRICING Currently i think the price is the by far biggest issue. I would go as far as to say. If the prices where reduced. We wont have this problem anymore. Wargaming and warhammer in particulair. Gets a huge boost in popularity due to major games getting popular. Warhammer total war, Darktide, Space marine 2 is a big hyped game. So that gets many people in a hobby..... If it wasnt so expensive. I dont know the markup of games workshop. Cost vs profit. But im willing to bet tit is more than 60 percent of the price. Maybe even 80. So. If they halved all the prices on main GW stuff and cut 30 percent on forgeworld. They would probably still make a profit. And a gigantic ammount of people would enter the hobby. Like. Maybe even tripling it current player count. That Is how crucial the pricing is in this discussion. And with hat 50 percent reduction. They would probably increase their overal profits extremely. The only problem i see. Is the production capacity. As GW. Has problems with that even currently. Or they are deliberly creating FOMO(Fear of missing out). But if it is production. This would probably make it very bad. BUT. It would increase profits overal. Mainline plastic GW. Would be the mainstream stuff. Forgeworld would be the more expensive specialized stuff. That the older people enjoy. HOW MANY YOUNG PEOPLE DOING WARGAMING IN MY AREA? More than i thought. I know 2 to 3 kids under 16 that are very young that. Do build and play it. They have not coincidentally often parents that are also into wargaming. So that is factor. I know around 10 teenagers that are into wargaming. Many also like D and D. But well they are strapped for cash. so dont have huge armies. And play with what theyve got. Im a bit older. 28 years old. And i can afford some stuff. But for me... I have to make hard choices. Those chaos boxsets from a while back? I Wanted them. But couldnt. As i only had 250 euros. And i wanted both. I could not afford it. It would have costed me 360 euros. SO i chose not to get them. And not start a chaos army. And boxsets are the cheapest way to start. I could afford one. But nah it didnt feel as it was worth it. No imagine how this is for younger people? With less money. Or parents. That also have less money. Since they have to stretch it more often. Then you see the effect of less young people getting into the hobby. However overal. I think there are more people in the hobby. Henry Cavill made it populair. The popular games we have. Do also give it a publicity boost. So overal there are more people. The biggest thing is the price. That is the biggest sole barrier to entry. WHEN DID I GET INTO THE HOBBY? I live in a medium sized city in a province of the netherlands. When i was around 8-10 i had friends. That where a bit older than me. That played MESBG. And i got invited to use one of their armies to play in a tournament. In 2006 was this or so? This happened a few times. They had Rohan, Gondor, Elves(lothlorien?), Isengard and mordor. I loved the isengard army as they had 2 metal isengard trolls. I love to play with them. But during these tournaments. There where other tournaments and games played. I saw 40k. Armies with tyrannids with lots of carnifexes. Love the look on those. necrons. One had a monolith that he lovelingly called the slot machine. And i saw warhammer fantasy. Empire, Wood elves. And i was interested in those. This planted the seed later. When i got money to start collecting these models. Back in those days. A squad cost around 25 euros. And a hero or a character 5 to 10. It was even expensive back then for me. But that was because i was from a poor family. 25 euros was a lot back then for me. Now 25... Is cheap. I got a more money. My friends where decently well off still working class. But they got spending money. I had a sole mom. That was from a foreign country and was on goverment benifits. And she had to stretch the money with 3 kids. Without a working partner. She did a great job. But that planted the seed of wargaming in me? Over the years it got more and more expensive. It was crazy. A squad can no cost as much as 45 or 50 and for Horus heresy even 60. And with less models. So yeah. The barrier to entry these days is steeper than ever. Because of the price. But the popularity of the francise is also bigger than ever. If GW wants more people into to hobby to sell to. Slash the prices in half. And all the shelves will probably be empty in a few days.
My son who is 9 years old plays Warhammer 40k and Flames of War. He has played Flames of War in a number of tournaments. Also, each gaming group I am a part of, for Blood and Plunder, Flames of War, etc, has a kid under the age of 12 playing. Many of us didn’t get into wargaming until our late teens. I started with Battletech at age 16. I would just say give it time.
Absolutely agree. My hope is combat patrol and spearhead, particularly the magazines, help a new generation get in to the hobby without breaking the bank. The lack of community centres for kids\young teens to do stuff in evening, I think, also means it's harder to find a friendly group to get into it. D&D however is much cheaper to start, and can even be played online with a group. Can even play together at home without needing a big table set up
Me, and my friend group are a bunch of Zoomers, older Zoomers mind you, mid 20s. Some of us started as teens, I started at 20. Funnily enough, this video popped into my recommended the day my mates and I just did a 40K tournament, our first for most of us. I'm also super excited for Halo Flashpoint coming out towards the end of this year.
I didn't get into wargaming until my late 30's. Kids are more into video games. Video games are a great way to get people into war gaming. I learned about Warhammer through video games as well. Ravaged Star made over a million dollars on Gamefound this year so I don't think wargaming is going anywhere. It's more popular in EU than America as well.
Hey again, great to see your next video here, always a pleasure. I'm in late 30s and started Warhammer 40k when I was 13. Currently I don't know any youth playing it. Youngest at local store I play at is 25 I believe. New people aren't getting into 40k because of the ridiculous price point but also because many new ones are just damn weird with their behavior. I see them on my place's discord, many of them have fully painted armies but all they do is talk about things but never actually show up to play. The guys that do play in this local scene are so close minded only play competitive crap. I've quit 10th because of that and because of the prices. It's great how you pointed out the old prices for things. I made a narrative, skirmish, and Indy games figured wargaming club here in south Florida that's been going awhile and thankfully have a few that play and they are dedicated. But growing the scene is tough. People are close minded and just band wagon into only playing competitive 40k (always with stupid square bases for terrain etc as if there's only one way to play) or dnd because others do it. The other problem is how 40k is trying to make things feel like an esport to appeal to the lowest common denominator of video game players to try to get them in.. They ruin atmosphere of the games and it's not the experience I'm looking for in a game or an opponent. I think it's possible to grow things and there's much fun to be had as is so I keep the hobby going.
Thanks for watching! I 100% agree with you. On all points. And it really is one of those groupthink mentalities where everyone does it so I will do it as well. I won't go out of my way to try something new because the masses aren't doing it. It's such a simple and stupid mindset.
I think Games Workshop moving towards supporting mostly competitive play with rules and such was a mistake. I will say one of the most important things I learned about with wargaming in general, including with Games Workshop games, was to play people who you enjoy playing. I don't play the ebay army meta chasers, personally. With historicals I like to play with people who accept its a game, and who like playing with fully painted and nicely based armies on a nice table, that I can have a good conversation with as we play a friendly game.
So promoting game clubs in schools is really helpful for the hobby. I know many people in my area that got into D&D and wargaming from the clubs I. The high school.
It's a greater macro trend tbh more than it is about money. Like kids don't play in-person really anymore. A lot of outdoor activities are basically free (like just biking around or street hockey, etc.) and there are almost no kids around do that stuff. It's not useful to talk about prices from the 90's or earlier either because those conditions are not in place today. While I don't really like the cost, I cannot say it's the main driver behind why recruitment for 18 and under is very low.
Yeah I do think some of it is cultural change. Especially with technology. Almost nobody hangs out in person anymore, and I'm sure it's even more so for children.
My first war game was Squad leader, played that system from 10years old. In 82 brought Atari 800XL and started playing war games with that due to lack of opponents. 91 all my Avalon Hill games got destroyed in a water incident. 93/94 started playing Dawn of War. That was my introduction to Warhammer, however all the metal figures were awful ( I was used to Tamyia quality). It wasn’t until COVID lockdown that I finally got Warhammer plastic. I’ve been playing on the tabletop since we came out of the lockdown. I’m in a league and there’s maybe 100 in the league with 35-50 playing any one time ( 5 game season). So 1976 was the year I started.
I believe that the recent influx of skirmish scale, miniatures-agnostic games bodes well for the miniature wargaming hobby's future. Many of these games are very easy to play, do not cost much to get into, and are not tethered to particular lines of pre-requisite miniatures. Introducing the younger generation to miniature gaming through these games can ensure the future of the hobby.
This is not my definition of wargaming. I wargame with flat cardboard squares with tiny roman legionnaires (or soldier divisions with numbers) painted on them. And those games are like 40 to 80 bucks a piece for everything (map, all the units, and LARGE rules booklets). "Graphics don't matter, gameplay matters."
I can tell you that we are not a dying breed. I am 13 and i started warhammer two months ago. I managed to get three friends to start with it too. But that might be because i live in a rich country (sweden) and therefore kids get higher allowance here. But the recent price increase still hurts ALOT. anything worth 450 crowns jumped up to 490 crowns, which is about 5-6 dollars i believe. So it is much harder to justify this hobby to my parents lol.
My grandfather painted and recreated civil war battles. when i was 8 and showed me how to paint the models. i sucked and he did not play games. he just recreated the battle fields. i was a preteen in the 80s when i got into AD&D, a friend of my father gave me several chainmail rule books. then i discovered gw fantasy battles and rogue trader. I have seen 2 teenagers in the last 10 years. my own son who is now 26 has no interest. and he says its a price point issue. and i cannot blame him with the price ranges of gw stuff. but you are correct, a video game is what 60 and some of them last for a while and has loads of replay. why spend a thousand on an army you may not like once you can actually play it.
I was 10yrs old when I got into the hobby and I never looked back, now 46, I'm introducing my son(13) to Mantics Kings of war and other games. But I know far more adults as actual gamers, then young people, but of my friends who have kids are all getting their minions into the hobby aswell, so I think it's up to us older gamers to pass the hobby torch down to younger generations. 😉
I was 22 when I got into D&D. I played for a while and then started painting minis at 25 and while looking for tutorials online, I discovered the world of Warhammer 40k and was hooked. Been a Wargamer/ Skirmish Wargamer ever since!
People are losing face to face social skills in the digital world where you just communicate over a head set. Also, you have to like painting, scratch building and reading and my buddy finds it easier just to play video game versions of the game. He has no patience for the tabletop.
I am 19. I started wargaming about 4 to 4 1/2 years ago, getting into Warhammer 40k at the start of ninth edition. I got into it with a group of 4-5 guys that played MTG. They were between 1-3 years older than me, and one a year younger than me.
I think you’re right! My son (14) is the only teen I know of. When I started in the 90’s as a teenager I thought it was a kid thing because everyone I knew who played was a teen. I remember it being expensive then too though.
Along with D&D, young gamers can more easily get into CCGs. Back in the '90s I was buying Magic boosters with my allowance money, and nowadays there's Pokemon and Lorcana to entice the younger crowd. It's wild how GW has made/licensed multiple CCGs & LCGs over the years, but they never seemed to be taken seriously as a hobby onramp for newcomers.
I live in east Mississippi. No one sells table top war gaming materials in my area. I have to drive two hours in almost any direction to get anything!! D&D, just visit my local book store and it is readily available.
Hey! I have been trying to get my friends into wargaming and noticed a couple of difficulties. Might explain a few things. This hobby takes a lot of space, and not a lot of people can afford this space. After moving appartments i dont have a pile of shame anymore, just because i have no space for it. Skirmish games are great, i love space weirdos and my friends are enjoying it, yet lack of lore can be a double edged sword. Sure you can come up with your own lore, but it's nice to have a general vibe. Turnip28 is doing a lot in this, but it is very nieche. The last point is figuring out what this hobby is about. There is a lot of aspects to it, but what i've seen is that great lore and ability to express yourself in play are way more rewarding, than any kind of hardcore simulation. This would necesitate lighter and looser rules, but that would surely make it harder to play against people that you dont know, like in clubs.
Have you checked out Brutality Skirmish Wargame? You stat your own models out using the character creation system. Any genre or model range, and lore that supports it.
Wargaming something I wanted to get into the 90s, but my dad said no (so many days that could’ve been better spent). Fast forward to 42 and I have fallen in love with Bolt Action, I’ve been playing it for a couple years now and have made lots of friends doing it. It saddens me, watching my two kids growing up 14 and 16 now, and totally addicted to technology. The thought of playing anything practical is just too much effort for them.
IMO: Boxed starter sets are the future of the hobby and it's something that GW fails to deliver in recent times because of greed i guess. There is always something missing in the recent releases, like terrain (big one), rulers or balanced armies (looking at you leviathan box). Even if they have a starter box like for kill team it's kinda shitty (terrain missing as well) - most of the time you will need to get something else, just to play the game. Corvus Belli has great starter boxes with a decent price that have everything in them. Halo Flashpoint from mantic presents itself more as a board game but it has everything as well. GW just misses out on parents buying their kids a one and done set.
I never had as much time and energy for gaming as I had as teenager… but back then there was no way I could afford large armies with tend or hundreds of models. Plus quite frankly that side of the hobby hadn’t really taken off in my neck of words (this was late 80’s).
Unpopular opinion: wargaming is full of dorky and geeky people. The payoff for the high price point, massive time investment, delayed gratification, and massive effort to find a club with consistent players, just to hang out with dorky/geeky middle aged dudes is incredibly low. Its inherently unattractive for most people, children especially.
Great topic! My work is to teach kids to paint and play with miniatures. And I see a lot of the same problems. Actually Warhammer is a bad gateway game for wargaming. It’s not just the price point but the rules too. yet it’s the biggest and the one brand everyone have heard of.. I wonder why Star Wars legion and marvel crisis protocol isn’t bigger to the younger audience? They already know the IP. At my work I have focused on One page rule. The rule set is really good and easy to learn and it’s fun for adults too. My son how is 5 years old and my we are playing it, and he understands the rules after to games!
Wow, your whole video is what I’ve been saying and what a few other gamers have been for years only to get shot down by a lot of the warhammer elites so I’ve glad you are getting this out there. I guess I started out young I still play D&D which was of course the first rpg I ever played and still play but since then I’ve play soooo many others, I’ve always loved miniatures started with trains my first mini was a grenadier ninja 😄 I know of more adult war gamers (probably in the 30 to 40+ age range) I don’t know of many or any younger wargamers I know of more ttrpger’s from a wide range of ages.
Thanks for chiming in! So far everybody's responses have been mostly in line with what I thought. They don't know any children in the game, and most of them started in their younger years. There is a hardcore group of die hard Games Workshop Fanboys that will defend everything they do to the bitter end. Many people have made a personality out of being a Warhammer player.
@@LetsTalkTabletop I remember in the early 2000’s I was into warhammer and 40k, I had wanted to get my gaming group to play but that didn’t happen 🤷🏾♂️ and then I think that was when the year price increases started. After a year or so I told people I had to tap out with few gamers in my area at the time and the cost steadily climbing as much as I liked the minis there where plenty of other minis I could use for other games and minis I could paint that had a acceptable price. Even now I look at the price of some games and I get kinda ehhhh the price anxiety 🤷🏾♂️
Totally understandable. I have finally also reached that point with warhammer. Their prices are already ridiculous and they keep doing their annual price hikes
So I have a very different opinion on the subject because I ve been going to the Games Workshop boutique near me with my children who are 5 and 8, and there very often groups of young children who paint and try to understand the universe and the hobby.I think that the hachette miniatures and the Warhammer Alliance programme really work in order to bring people to the hobby
I'm 24. Started wargaming when I was 18. My friends had always been into Warhammer, but I didn't know where to start until I found a Dark Vengeance box set at a yard sale for 20 dollars. 6 years later, and I've got something like 15 armies across 8 different wargames. A lot of people my age are playing Warhammer, at least in the area I live. I hear Age of Sigmar's main target audience is young people, but it's fairly dull no matter how hard they try to rip of WoW.
No. of Juvenile Wargamers: 0 that I personally know, and have not seen any since I was young No. of Adult Wargamers: 8 that I personally know; have seen dozens at local shops Age I started: 13, via The Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game
I am 46 and started when I was a junior in college. I do not know a single kid playing tabletop games but I still have a small crew of about 10 adults to throw dice with. I have tried to play different games in the last 20+ years as I have a large collection of Warmachine/Horde, Kings of War, 40K, LotR, Infinity, X-Wings, Armada, ASOIAF, Battle Tech and Runewars. I guess we can add the legion and Flames of war as well as few more games which I can't recall their names to that list of 'have collection but no longer played' games. I really do hate the price gauging and power creeping of GW and supported other gaming company with my wallet but the end result is piles of plastics sitting in a storage costing me additional $140 each months. So, I just don't want to start another game and just will continue to play the WHFB, now called TOW. It is the only game which I can find an opponent to play against. I know it is so much easier to find an opponent in 40K, but I hate 40K so that doesn't count for me. :) Lastly, I have been exposing the wargames to my two girls but they just want their tablets so I am guessing the wargamer ends with me unfortunately. :( If you ask me, the cost of entry for GW games are very high and has a lot to do with not getting the young blood, but more to do with this young generation just aren't used to committing hours well in advance to schedule for games. Just think for a moment on how much prep involved to play a game on a Saturday afternoon. Start with getting the kitchen pass, then find an opponent whose availability aligns with yours, then getting your army list set up, transport it, set up the table, clean up after a game, transporting the army back home, then storing them. It is a lot of work. None of my teenaged nephews/nieces have such time. They don't mind playing MTG or Smash-ups with uncle, but no miniature games, period. Uncle would have given them whatever they want to play freely, but they don't want them.
I’m a 23 year old game design student just getting into killteam after 5 years of running ttrpgs. (My good friend is teaching me) I’m looking to build a modest astra militarum force painted like helldivers. I painted my first space marine at pax unplugged 2023 which I’d probably say was the biggest draw for me. Im still trying to figure out the rules tho… that’s probably the biggest hurdle as far as the dnd5e to 40k10e transition goes. Warhammer thrives on its tactical tangibility as a central appeal of the hobby. Sure you can use a vtt but games workshop is designing the rules with a bunch of miniatures and a table in mind. Dnd just requires less cognitive “buy in” and materials to experience now that computers are so prevalent.
I started playing around 12-13 years old. I currently play lots of 15mm sci fi skirmish games, £20 will get you 2 opposed forces (approx 40 figures) for less than a single 40K squad or character model. I know 7 or 8 under 18s who play, probably a similar number of adults. We have a local games club that promotes all sorts of games and nurtures younger players well. GW themselves are one of the biggest hurdles for new people to start wargaming due to price and constant rules shift, which is why I ditched them 10 years ago and have been far happier in my gaming ever since.
I think regardless of the fact, and it truly is that, that wargaming populations are aging, we should have some faith that the hobby will never truly go away when we look at the digital alternatives basically doing the recruiting for us, as gamers mature and look for alternatives, ESPECIALLY when we look at the extent that large studios/companies are shooting themselves in the foot with predatory live services that prioritise extortionate profit maximising over player experience.
Video games and expanded media likely play a role getting that exposure. This was how I got started at age 19. Dawn of War was my introduction to 40k and one of my friends who played 40k convinced me to go to the GW in the local mall and give it a look. Bought the Black Templar 4th edition codex while there and still play them to this day, though I took nearly 8 years off from the hobby.
1) I know 3 teenagers through my local club, and my 5 year old son plays 40k with me in the house. That would be compared to around 60 adults I know that wargame. 2) I started Hero Quest when I was 9, 40k when I was 12 and WFB when I was 15.
I sold all of my stuff a few years ago mainly because I saw writing on the wall: 1:) Primaris marines. Those guys are going to replace the first born models. Wait and see. 2:) I forgot what it was called, legacy rules I think, where they made chaos lords with jump packs illegal in tournaments? What? You mean this model I spent money on I can no longer use? 3:) More recently, I heard something about half of the Stormcast Eternals models were being retired. Welp, everyone has to buy whatever the new meta is. GW is trying to turn buying models into a subscription service. I will never get back into war gaming unless I have a 3D printer.
dont know any kids, and yeah probably know close to 100 adults. I started at 24 - but really it was only because i moved to UK - couldnt afford it in my country. Also got bad news for you : GW knows the hobby is sinking and they just accept it - milking the whales, more and more exclusive and collectible stuff, licensing to Amazon, comics, action figures and general merch - it will be less and less about games in games workshop....
I actually have the same feeling. I think they know that 3D printing is becoming more of a threat everyday and they're just milking it for all they can while they can.
I remember me and my brother playing computer wargames at like 10? And we made our own table top ones at 10 or 11 using colored tack's to represent various units on a piece of cardboard, then later played all quiet on the western front board game a lot. My first wargaming set was a box of space wolves in 3rd edition? Mostly played using friends more complete armies, and played a lot of Mordhiem. Warhammer may be expensive, but its community is WAY WAY WAY more welcoming to new players than any other wargaming community by a huge margin. My first love has always been history and once I found out historical wargames were a thing, I jumped right in, but while a lot of historical gamers are very welcoming I will say I have encountered way too many people who would rather see historical wargaming die than be anything less than toxic to people under 60. Warhammer is too expensive, but historical's have a lot of flaws which I think cause them to have the issues they have attracting new people. I think Warlord Games is doing a lot to make Historical's much more accessible than they historically have been, and much easier to play.
With how expensive it is to get into them, especially GW's games, it is absolutely dying or will be. There's also an intimidating level of "entry skill" since you likely have to build you models, build terrain, paint everything, and be fluent in a large ruleset. Most'll probably turn to a total war game instead, since they cam just jump into the game.
I was 12 when I got into dnd. 14 when I got into warhammer fantasy which quickly turned to 40k once it became more flushed out. I have 3 boys and each of them show interest in playing which I support (10, 13,17). The 17 year old is much more invested with a full army for 40k etc. .
I think things will turn around. It takes time. No one thought fantasy battles would come back. There will be a nostalgic renewal. Other forms of entertainment is getting more attention is getting more expensive. I’m hoping will get game companies to focus on adults like it was in in the older days. I think that would help greatly.
For me the models of alternative games are not as good. I have been seduced by competitor models and even bought a few but when they are there in front of you their final form is not as obvious as it is with a GW model. You may have a unpainted GW model in front of you but the potential is obvious (to me at least). This is not so with competitor models, the proportions are off, or the sculps just don't sit well. This is IMHO...I have reduced my GW spend to almost nothing now and seeking out new models bhut the lure of GW is strong.
I know a couple teenagers that play Warhammer, but the overwhelming majority are adults. I'm in my 40s and I started playing D&D in middle school and got into Warhammer in high school. My collection was made up of what I got for birthdays and gifts and whatever money I could scrounge up from the jobs I had. It was very much a broke hammer scenario with me and my 2-3 friends who also played. After highschool, I reverted to the video games for entertainment because due to lack of space and money in my early 20s. I circled back around to D&D with some adult friends when I was in my late 20s. Then I was reintroduced to Warhammer in my early 30s. Between the nostalgia and the desire to have a creative outlet, I jumped back into the hobby. And being an adult with adult money, I felt so Ike I could enjoy Warhammer the way I had dreamed when I was in high school. I think cost is probably one of the biggest barriers to younger wargamers right now. I personally don't subscribe to all of the "kids nowadays" gnashing of teeth and ringing of hands that the Gen X and Millennial gamers are casting at the kids. Especially since Gen Z and Alpha are literally our kids....that we raised. And it's the same thing Boomers say about us. LMFAO
In my opinion, D&D is not a competing product. I and others play RPGs and wargames. The competition is probably more with consoles and PCs. When it comes to pricing, I have to agree with you. Children under the age of 15 usually have the imagination to get along without rules. We lose this imagination and replace it with rules. Many children will come to us later, as long as we show what is possible. My son has now started painting and collecting miniatures. He only plays very little. I got into this area and role-playing game when I was 16 or 17, but initially had to come up with my own rules because - in Germany - no rules were available commercially.
I am 53 and just started wargaming( 5 months ago). I bought one starter set of some kind from warhammer. Then, while watching UA-cam videos on wargaming, found onepagerules. So I got a resin 3d printer and went to town. My 10 and 12 year old daughters have each painted their armies. And my 7 year old son wants an army as well. I have several grand daughters who are also interested. One of which has already played a couple of games. So, I printed her an army as well. I could never have afforded to buy this many armies. I also like how simple the rules can be for the kids. Especially the free core rules. As the girls learn more, we introduce more advanced rules based on the child. My goal is to get about half my kids playing and eventually all 9 of my grandkids.
OPR are Fantastic. I envy you the family following.
Good for you! For some similarly figure agnostic games that can use the same figures at reasonable prices with different takes on rule design, check out rules from Osprey Games and Two Hour Wargames.
Me too and I'm 54
I was born into the wrong family
I have not tried OPR since I had started with D&D->MTG->WHFB->and finally The Ninth Age (T9A). T9A is a great system that is based off of GW WHFB (before they killed it off) and they have refined/clarified the rules, created a starter version (Essence of War) which is
I don't even know any wargamers... I've just been painting and solo wargaming for 2 decades 😅
😳😳😳
..which is a very honorable thing. 👍
Alaskan here, i know your hurt
@@h.s.lafever3277 Sorry mate, I thought it was hard enough being in Australia trying to find other wargamers, couldn't imagine how it would be in Alaska...😅
Stoic, I am the same.
I think a new shift to indie skirmish games is making wargames more cheap and accessible. Some games only need like five bucks for rules, a teeny little table and about 4-6 minis to start or like 10 for two people.
That certainly has to help, but Warhammer still soaks up all of the attention unfortunately. I think many people take one look at the prices of Warhammer and assume that is all wargaming.
Things like SAGA and Bolt Action are very approachable. Bolt action you can play with 2 $30 boxes of figures (1 a side), a handful of dice and the rule book. SAGA is the same. I think Frostgrave is good for a similar reason.
@@LetsTalkTabletop yeah it sure does suck. I recently got into turnip 28 tho and that’s an absolute blast. Also point of entry is like £40 for a full army of forty guys.
@@LetsTalkTabletop What warhammer and GW also does. Is increase the prices of cheaper wargames. Since well. If wargamers pay that much for warhammer. We can also get away with more.
I've seen on Kickstarter some people are releasing rulesets with a full batch of STLs. Print Your Own mini wargaming is here boys
cause parents can't afford it, and kids are stuck on the digital world
I can agree with such sentiment
Not true, all my friends and me are getting $800 lego star wars sets and all other kind of expensive collectibles. We just dont want to play warhammer. Rules change faster than our desire to learn new rules as this is not a game for casual players. The amount of learning and work and painting is not worth it to play a handful of games every year. Barrier to entry is too high. We actually went to a warhammer tournament and all people were excited to hear the lore, excited to see models and paintjobs, but they were visibly confused and suffering through the rules. I mean painting your figures and learning rules for a month just for most of your army to be obliterated during first turn shooting before you can even make a turn does not seem enjoyable. I can just start working or put my effort into something else.
Maybe the kids can't afford it too
@@WrathAmon1it is true to some point and I have gotten this from friends who run a gaming store and who are parents and they will tell you cost is a major sticking point, but not the only thing.
Can't afford it lol yet they can afford to buy iphones and ipads 😂 what's a stupid take
To answer your two questions:
1) Children = None. If you asked me a decade ago, I would have said 15-20. The numbers are gone for reasons listed further below.
As for adults, I live in Minneapolis, which is nearly considered the mecca of all gaming. We have over 20 shops without even counting the greater metro area.
2) I started at 15. I saw the Rogue Trader book at my local comic shop, and that was the beginning of the end. Though I did collect D&D figs by Citadel/Partha/Foundry/etc. since I was 7. But that was just because I had $0.50 to $0.75 burning a hole in my pocket and I saw a cool fig I liked. Never painted until my mid 20's. Only ink washed the bare metal.
On the topic of the rest of the video:
Frostgrave and Deadzone are probably the best in class (price and time investment), while being criminally underrated for the rules they offer. These should be what the banner wavers direct noobs towards.
Game shops, however, are dying. Often by their own hand, because many try to charge for gaming space, which nullifies the entire premise of "Pay where you play" to be able to use their game space. If I am going to be charged for it, I may as well buy everything from amazon, and just stay home and game. Why should I buy a Warcry set and other assorted stuff for the game, only to be told I have to pay $10 every hour I game? They may as well tear out all gaming space and make it only retail, if the space is that precious.
Online shopping was already a problem, but quite a few game shops (at least here) are attempting to nickel and dime everything to death, turning their stores into microtransactions. To the point where I am opting out completely from the ecosystem.
Thus, the exposure is decreasing for more reasons than merely the ridiculous premium GW puts on their products (even though thats a huge reason too).
We are definitely regressing back to the before times, when hardcore wargamers were making their own rules and playing chit based games from companies like Avalon Hill, etc. during the 60's.
Dark times, but they also caused a complete paradigm shift, since folks like Arneson, Gygax, Ansell, etc. created weird wargames and basically the entire industry of miniatures as we know it today.
I feel the winds of change, and its name is 3d printing.
Bank on it.
Because GW sure as hell isn't.
And those who grasp this new thing will surely see GW under their heels.
heck even my local store(Not GW). That sells all the warhammer stuff. Tell people. To try out 3d printing. And even offers advice for it. Because they know even with 3d printing. People will buy some real models. Just to ad to it. And the barrier to entry is big. And they are also wargamers themselves.
I only paint, but I just got a set of Frostgrave minis and was pleasantly surprised at the level of detail. Also they're so much more modular than GW minis. Really impressed.
Word!
I’m the grandfather of our wargaming group. I’m in my 70’s. I got into wargaming when my two sons were 10 and 12 respectively and wanted to play warhammer. That was 30 years ago. Needless to say we purchased 3 starter boxes and went from there. Now 4 of my grandsons are into warhammer and wargaming. So with us it is a generational hobby that we have come to enjoy as a family, and also with our local wargaming group. In fact, I have given several armies away to younger players who could not afford the initial cost!
That's a nice, wholesome story! Thanks for sharing! I love to hear families playing games together. I think it's good for their relationships.
When have there ever been a lot of kids into wargaming? When I started as a teen (in the early 90s) I knew three other people around my age who were in to wargames. Most the wargamers I know today didn't actually get into it until their twenties or thirties (including some who flirted with GW in their teens, then stopped for a few years). They're also less likely to have started with GW (in fact a fair few came over from D&D and the like). For that matter, I have yet to meet a historical wargamer (well, outside of Bolt Action) that wasn't a greybeard, and I'm reasonably sure (okay, about 50/50 if I'm honest) they don't spring into being fully formed in their mid forties.
I think there's always been a bit of a split between those of us who came in early - usually via GW, and probably these days the licensed Star Wars or Marvel stuff - because we really wanted to play with big stompy robots or magical elves, and those who come in a bit later via an interest in history, or artistry, or just a hobby that doesn't involve screens.
Okay, I’m 66, just to give you perspective. Cost is certainly an issue, but, as you said, that’s an issue for everyone, not just kids. I think it’s just a cultural/technological issue, more than anything else. When I was a kid, everyone played board games. Okay, not war games, things like monopoly and clue and risk. But the activity was there. Same with building models. Almost every boy built plastic models. Some just cars, but most did tanks and planes and ships as well. There just wasn’t much else to do other than watch 📺. But with phones and consoles and pc’s there’s just too many easier and less demanding sources if similar entertainment. Not many people ride horses anymore either.
I 100% agree with you. That certainly seems the case. Way too many things to distract us and split our attention.
good points!
GW's model is get a new player that can buy a big starter box, that person will then spend on paints and accessories over about 18 months then quit. Hence getting the most money up front. Its basically the life insurance sales model.
You hit the nail on the head. The cost of entry and the instant gratification of games really hurts getting the younger people starting. I don't know any Childern who play but I did start young. I was playing army men before high school
Well that is young!
It's not necessarily the instant gratification. It's more the engagement. It's harder to keep someone's attention when you're taking 45 fucking minutes to end your turn because you have a 100+ model army, than it is to play on a unit activation basis with 20-30 models each.
Back in the late '80 when I went to elementry school it was pretty common for boys to have a box filled with plastic soldiers/army men. At least in the place where I grew up. They would go pretty well with the die cast toy cars. Matchbox even made both.
Also board games where pretty common. So in 5th or 6th grade if you stumbled upon Space Crusade/Star Quest the transition was easy.
@@Dominik189 That only becomes an issue if you allready started wargaming and have a rather sizable army. Its also more or less 40k specific.
When you start you will play small games with the miniatures that you allready have. Which might only be a single squad that comes in one box. Even 40k with its archaic turn structure is quick when each player only has 10 minis. From there on it starts to grow and become slow.
The real problem IMHO is getting to this point in the first place. I fully agree that there is little appeal of the wargaming hobby for somebody who is not allready into it. Its not mainstream. There is little exposure. Kids do not play board games to the same extend as 30 years ago anymore. So the concept of rolling dice and game mechanics are not that familliar to them.
A major point IMHO is the decline of brick and mortar stores. In toy stores and especially the FLGS there would be lots of exposure to all sorts of games. The internet makes stuff for the hobby easily accessible BUT there is little exposure outside of what you know. Nobody really browses and online store like a real store. The social interaction also is missing. In a games store people can point out to you that GW products are hideously expensive and there are much more affordable alternatives. You also can see people playing games that you might not know about. All of that is more or less gone.
Since GW and 40k is the most present in the internet they have a massive advantage in exposure. The high price point will than scare young people away. If they like the style and lore they can easily and cheaply pick up a 40k theme computer game or app.
@@schnuersi true, all true.
Started at 13 with Rogue Trader in 89, got my son interested in wargames when he turned 17. Our LFGS is all adults with most in the mid 20 to mid 30s. The teenagers mostly play DnD or MTG. Price points are the biggest issue, my son has expressed concern for the cost bc I buy for him. We've also watched parents turn down their children after seeing the price of GW minis.
Hey I just want to say, I’m 13 walking down the road and stumbled into a store, they gave me a free mini to paint and I got hooked, got my mom to buy me the starter pack, and eventually managed to buy a primaries intercessor marine pack, but man is it expensive corporate greed is no joke 😅 I don’t even know if I can afford it especially in my country
57 life time table top player all time favorite is Battletech! Still love it today. You can get started for as Low as $ 30 or invest in a starter box for $60 and you can play endless missions and go no further. Collect more books and units and bigger battles
AMEN! Battletech is one of my all-time favorites too, and you're right: you can get into the game for very little cost.
I couldn't agree more. Left GW to play Battletech. No regrets. Very complex rules though...kids wouldn't play it with me for that reason alone. Alpha strike maybe? But I've given up on bringing them in for now.
If GW would drop prices and increase production to put their products into department stores such as Walmart and Target, that would fix a lot of the issues.
?? nonsense. 40K has seasonal miniature cycle. Units go to Legends.
@@JoseGabrielMattaGonzales a lot of products have seasonal cycles. It doesn’t put any limitations on mass distribution
@@aerofool66 i am talking about rules. I asume you play vanilla astartes.
Hard agree. I'll add that it isn't just the budget that's keeping the next generation out of the hobby, when box stores becoming fewer and farther between there's no place to go as an entry point.
I think price and budget is the biggest reason of keeping young people out of wargaming.
@@TheSegert Didn't say it wasn't, its just isn't the only thing. Younger people these days are driving much less than previous generations. If your only game store is more than a town away, that's certainly a barrier. Meanwhile the competition (videogames) is just a click away.
This is a topic that comes around as regular as clockwork, it has been prevalent in the hobby since I began back in 1986. It was a constant question asked in the magazines of the time and is still being asked forty years later just in different formats. Kids had other distractions then, and yet some of them still wargamed, same as today. I recently went to the Partizan and Salute shows and the amount of kids there with their parents was incredibly encouraging. However, wargaming is naturally something that attracts older people, due to things you mentioned, more disposable income, more time, more patience, etc. So, as the older wargamers pass away new ones join the ranks, just in their adulthood, rather than as kids. It is a perpetual cycle and if the two recent shows were anything to go by the hobby is as healthy and active as it ever has been.
I'm sure what you're saying is true, but we also don't live in a vacuum. Times can change and past results are no indicator of future gains, as the stock market says. Never before have we had so much to occupy young people's time that was free and cheap and easy. I don't think it's the same scenario as it has been in yesteryear. I guess we will have to see! I'm not saying the children aren't in it at all, I'm just saying if you look at the comment section the vast majority of us got into it as a teenager and the vast majority of us don't know any teenagers who play.
@@LetsTalkTabletop at our club this week were two teenagers playing Chain of Command. I know that's anecdotal, but kids have huge barriers in front of them when getting into wargaming, so in order for kids to get into it need adults to guide them. You mentioned your kids friends are interested in your models, have them play a game, organise a painting and modelling session at your place or even the FLGS. I'm not putting the onus on you, I'm merely pointing here that there are things we as the older crowd can do to encourage youngsters into the hobby.
I don't know if you missed it or not, but in my video I said that I run a Warhammer club at the local library for teens. You're right, it does lower the barrier for entry when veterans help out the new guys.
@@LetsTalkTabletop apologies, you did indeed. How about suggesting to the Warhammer kids that they might want to try something else one week? Something with a lower barrier for entry and to introduce them to the wider world of gaming? You may already do this, but if you've got a captive audience already...
It's a good idea, but they haven't been interested in trying anything else yet. They are new to it and still excited about it. I will though!
I sense what you are talking about is perhaps gaming or games of war. Traditional wargaming is a very different beast which really trying to examine and test a hypothesis. It also seeks to explore history in depth if it is geared towards historical battles.
You nailed it with the choices (digital) available today. We had very little and made up rules for green and brown army men "wargames". We also had an 8-Track player back then too!
Damn I’m 19 and I already feel like an old man
Shout out to gates if Antares, a lovely game by old Rick
Out of the dozen or so rule sets I play, Antares is still my favourite.
Enjoy being 19 while it lasts!
Great points in this video!
I’m a huge advocate for Mantic Games and the way they make (war) gaming accessible. But they capture a tiny proportion of the market compared to the big boy.
Started wargaming: 8 years old (1988) with my dad
Club mates ages: 25-65
Could name 1 Wargamer under 20, as someone’s son who played kings of war
I was 14 when my friend introduced me to Warhammer
Only adults over 25, no kids I know of. Got introduced between 8 and 11 can't remember exactly
I'm 51 and started playing AD&D in the 10th grade (1989) and started playing 40K when i was stationed at Ft Hood in 1994, our group runs from players in their early 60s (my older friends) to their early 20s (my son who's 23 and his friends). i think we have a different world now than when I/we were younger. computers and E-gaming is a big part of that. GW does not care about long-term players (the marshmallows) or the young players who are trying to learn to play (no gaming in their stores). they want the power gamer addicts and the starter army sales to people who want to try the game and they don't care if you keep playing because their "business model" already made the money off you that they had projected with your "buy-in"... i tell people to try other things OR buy used/knock off stuff for 40k and fantasy as you just cant afford this game at GW shelf price... and stay away from GW sanctioned tournaments as they are basically toxic cesspits of competitive asshats 🙂
It’s a lot more expensive to get into war gaming and the PC war gaming and RPG experience is a lot better than it was when we were younger. We now have games like total war Warhammer and Balders gate 3. When I was younger the best PC game was age of empires. Best way to get into Warhammer is to buy 3rd party miniatures, get the rules online for free and then learn to play and paint that way. I am getting into the old world and I am starting with a 1250pt army and will not go to a 2000pt army until I’ve had a few solid games in.
15 or so, did my first mail order to GW, collected grenedier minis, rest from airfix,matchbox,and eschi and started making my own, peaked around 20 but declined after 30, more watching than doing it. I was playing my own games younger with Britains using ruler and rubberbands and the artillery which fired matchsticks when lost plastic ammo
I also think that too many folks conflate "Warhammer" and "Wargaming" two very different animals.
The problem is too much of the wargaming hobby (especially on UA-cam) is focused on nothing but Warhammer. Once you get away from that and find either smaller skirmish games for the low model count, or miniature agnostic games where you use whatever cheap mini's that are the right size and look like what they are, you get games that are much more friendly to new players.
You're 100% right. But unfortunately it's that snake eating its tail again, where Warhammer based videos get the most views so people make more Warhammer videos which of course expose more people to warhammer.
I'm a 27 year old. I got into wargaming first through Frostgrave when I was 19 or 20, as a way to get more use out of my D&D minis collection. Warhammer 40k was my first "real" wargame, which I got into at 23. In the last year, I've been trying to branch out into other games like Conquest & Malifaux.
Having adult money & adult time feels crucial to being able to collect & play these games. Most newcomers to my gaming group are starting at around the same time I did, and like me, they are also participating because they need a community. Lots of young people who just finished college & need a place to be that isn't work or home. We've got a thriving Kill Team community because the barrier to entry is so much lower, and I'm working on getting Malifaux off the ground.
We just gotta wait until holodecks are invented then we’ll never run out of games to play
There are some nice games around you can start with a few minis.
I recommend Warlord´s "Achtung! Panzer" which needed only 2-3 Tanks per side and comes at the same scale as Bolt Action. Or Tank Wars, which is the tank skirmish for Bolt Action, I would recommend 4-7 tanks per side. One could start with a these and later paint the infantry for Bolt Action.
We also need to step down from the high painting standards Games Workshop has set in the gaming world. It really frustrates new players when they buy expensive minis and mess them up.
For me, the wargaming seed was planted when I was a kid. I bought a few GW models, but never really understood the concept of codexes, etc. There was no real internet back then and I didn't have anyone to explain how the game worked so the models just sat in my closet. I didn't really get into it until my early 30s. And then I started a UA-cam channel to offset the cost of it lol
I started with D&D back as a freshman in high school (junior nearly a senior now) and started painting minis around Christmas. At one point I thought I was getting into something that my friends and family could get into, and while I have convinced 2 of my younger cousins and a friend to look into it and maybe do some painting with me. I am probably the only person in my high school who war games.
Wargame companies need to me more sets and kits that are less expensive and easier to assemble for the new folks.
I’m 49. I’ve grandfathered my sons(17 and 15) into miniature gaming. The older one is all in, the younger is more casual, but he enjoys it.
I want to add to this, that there is a patience that comes with most hands on hobbies. Sadly maybe the future generations that are primed on dopamine games and tablets won’t even be able to find it engaging enough. I worry what this jump into the digital world with out fully thinking will lead to travesties similar to those we are now addressing of the Industrial Revolution growth; but these maybe more in sociology form and loss of so many arts and skills. Maybe we won’t even notice as there won’t be a comparative, similar how we romanticize medieval times but in reality have no real day to day concept of how it really was.
While this is mostly true and I do agree, I think we'll find them preferring to slow down and take a step back from the psychic assault that being constantly plugged into the digital world brings. The ones seeking peace may find some of it in the hobby. After all, gardening, home renovation, cooking - sure, all live giving pursuits, but creative expressions stemming from aesthetic preferences, all the same.
Back when Warhammer 40K 8th Edition was released (2017), I attended a release party event that included about a dozen players. I had my Rogue-Trader era Eldar with me that day, and I recall one of the attendees coming up to me and saying, "Dude! Your miniatures are ANCIENT." I was flattered and saddened at the same time....my models were older than most of the people attending the event.
I’m in the UK, my first warhammer purchase around 1998 was a £5 box - a combat squad, which was the same sculpt type as the 3rd edition box (which was just released). I left the hobby and when I came back around 2009, they had those small push fit cadians/orks/eldar. This was a great low barrier to entry, but I don’t think they have that now.
They are living off nostalgia, a new low barrier to entry is required.
Nope, don't know any adults or children in my sphere that are war gamers (unless they simply don't talk about it). I was much older when I started.
I got started at 11. I know a couple of dozen wargamers aged 30 plus, and two children who play. One of those children is my son, but he has a fairly active club at his school playing mostly 40k and Age of Sigmar.
Excellent video! I have been war gaming since the 70’s- it’s always been a hobby for “older people “ (mostly older men) - it’s like collecting cars- young people can’t afford to do it ( they have neither time nor money) older people have both time and money- just wait-children Role players will mature into table top war gamers- the hobby has been “dying” since its creation
Thanks! I'm not sure I agree with you though, if you read the comments in this video I was pretty much spot on with my assumption. Most people started wargaming in their teens and they are in their 30s or 40s now, and most of them don't know any teenagers or just a handful. There's definitely been a dynamic change. It might be societal, or technological, or economic, but there's definitely a change from the '80s and '90s. I do know what you mean though, people cry that the sky is falling all the time. But I think there's a little more to this.
I started wargaming in my 40s. I don't know any kids, like, at all.
I got into it at 14 my school had a 40k club at lunch times, i'm now 39. I mainly collect now as i have a family, i tried getting my sons into it but they have no interest.
The little tikes, are being priced out - simple.
That and the ever diminishing attention span ! ! !
Great video, It is not just wargaming that is dying because of the cost and the digital age, I went with my Dad to a model Railway show in Scotland not long ago it was packed with people, I am in my 50s and I felt like I was the youngest person in the room the new generation of kids are just not interested.
Thanks for watching! Yeah, I think model trains are ahead of the curve on the aging of their population. When I think about it, I feel like that is the ultimate luxury hobby. You need a ton of room to set up your train, a ton of time to buy and build all of that stuff, and then a ton of patients and solitude to use it. I see exactly what you're saying.
PRICING
Currently i think the price is the by far biggest issue. I would go as far as to say. If the prices where reduced. We wont have this problem anymore. Wargaming and warhammer in particulair. Gets a huge boost in popularity due to major games getting popular. Warhammer total war, Darktide, Space marine 2 is a big hyped game. So that gets many people in a hobby..... If it wasnt so expensive. I dont know the markup of games workshop. Cost vs profit. But im willing to bet tit is more than 60 percent of the price. Maybe even 80. So. If they halved all the prices on main GW stuff and cut 30 percent on forgeworld. They would probably still make a profit. And a gigantic ammount of people would enter the hobby. Like. Maybe even tripling it current player count.
That Is how crucial the pricing is in this discussion. And with hat 50 percent reduction. They would probably increase their overal profits extremely. The only problem i see. Is the production capacity. As GW. Has problems with that even currently. Or they are deliberly creating FOMO(Fear of missing out). But if it is production. This would probably make it very bad. BUT. It would increase profits overal.
Mainline plastic GW. Would be the mainstream stuff. Forgeworld would be the more expensive specialized stuff. That the older people enjoy.
HOW MANY YOUNG PEOPLE DOING WARGAMING IN MY AREA?
More than i thought. I know 2 to 3 kids under 16 that are very young that. Do build and play it. They have not coincidentally often parents that are also into wargaming. So that is factor. I know around 10 teenagers that are into wargaming. Many also like D and D. But well they are strapped for cash. so dont have huge armies. And play with what theyve got. Im a bit older. 28 years old. And i can afford some stuff. But for me... I have to make hard choices. Those chaos boxsets from a while back? I Wanted them. But couldnt. As i only had 250 euros. And i wanted both. I could not afford it. It would have costed me 360 euros. SO i chose not to get them. And not start a chaos army. And boxsets are the cheapest way to start. I could afford one. But nah it didnt feel as it was worth it.
No imagine how this is for younger people? With less money. Or parents. That also have less money. Since they have to stretch it more often. Then you see the effect of less young people getting into the hobby. However overal. I think there are more people in the hobby. Henry Cavill made it populair. The popular games we have. Do also give it a publicity boost. So overal there are more people. The biggest thing is the price. That is the biggest sole barrier to entry.
WHEN DID I GET INTO THE HOBBY?
I live in a medium sized city in a province of the netherlands. When i was around 8-10 i had friends. That where a bit older than me. That played MESBG. And i got invited to use one of their armies to play in a tournament. In 2006 was this or so? This happened a few times. They had Rohan, Gondor, Elves(lothlorien?), Isengard and mordor. I loved the isengard army as they had 2 metal isengard trolls. I love to play with them. But during these tournaments. There where other tournaments and games played. I saw 40k. Armies with tyrannids with lots of carnifexes. Love the look on those. necrons. One had a monolith that he lovelingly called the slot machine. And i saw warhammer fantasy. Empire, Wood elves. And i was interested in those. This planted the seed later. When i got money to start collecting these models.
Back in those days. A squad cost around 25 euros. And a hero or a character 5 to 10. It was even expensive back then for me. But that was because i was from a poor family. 25 euros was a lot back then for me. Now 25... Is cheap. I got a more money. My friends where decently well off still working class. But they got spending money. I had a sole mom. That was from a foreign country and was on goverment benifits. And she had to stretch the money with 3 kids. Without a working partner. She did a great job.
But that planted the seed of wargaming in me? Over the years it got more and more expensive. It was crazy. A squad can no cost as much as 45 or 50 and for Horus heresy even 60. And with less models. So yeah.
The barrier to entry these days is steeper than ever. Because of the price. But the popularity of the francise is also bigger than ever. If GW wants more people into to hobby to sell to. Slash the prices in half. And all the shelves will probably be empty in a few days.
Got into it freshman year of high in the late 80s when a new friend introduced me to Battletech.
My son who is 9 years old plays Warhammer 40k and Flames of War. He has played Flames of War in a number of tournaments. Also, each gaming group I am a part of, for Blood and Plunder, Flames of War, etc, has a kid under the age of 12 playing. Many of us didn’t get into wargaming until our late teens. I started with Battletech at age 16. I would just say give it time.
Absolutely agree. My hope is combat patrol and spearhead, particularly the magazines, help a new generation get in to the hobby without breaking the bank. The lack of community centres for kids\young teens to do stuff in evening, I think, also means it's harder to find a friendly group to get into it.
D&D however is much cheaper to start, and can even be played online with a group. Can even play together at home without needing a big table set up
Not really on topic but..... Comics never costed as much as a dollar in the 70's. 10c 20c 30c type range.
Me, and my friend group are a bunch of Zoomers, older Zoomers mind you, mid 20s. Some of us started as teens, I started at 20. Funnily enough, this video popped into my recommended the day my mates and I just did a 40K tournament, our first for most of us.
I'm also super excited for Halo Flashpoint coming out towards the end of this year.
I was ten and collected Airfix toy soldiers.
I didn't get into wargaming until my late 30's. Kids are more into video games. Video games are a great way to get people into war gaming. I learned about Warhammer through video games as well. Ravaged Star made over a million dollars on Gamefound this year so I don't think wargaming is going anywhere. It's more popular in EU than America as well.
Hey again, great to see your next video here, always a pleasure. I'm in late 30s and started Warhammer 40k when I was 13. Currently I don't know any youth playing it. Youngest at local store I play at is 25 I believe.
New people aren't getting into 40k because of the ridiculous price point but also because many new ones are just damn weird with their behavior. I see them on my place's discord, many of them have fully painted armies but all they do is talk about things but never actually show up to play. The guys that do play in this local scene are so close minded only play competitive crap. I've quit 10th because of that and because of the prices. It's great how you pointed out the old prices for things.
I made a narrative, skirmish, and Indy games figured wargaming club here in south Florida that's been going awhile and thankfully have a few that play and they are dedicated. But growing the scene is tough. People are close minded and just band wagon into only playing competitive 40k (always with stupid square bases for terrain etc as if there's only one way to play) or dnd because others do it.
The other problem is how 40k is trying to make things feel like an esport to appeal to the lowest common denominator of video game players to try to get them in.. They ruin atmosphere of the games and it's not the experience I'm looking for in a game or an opponent.
I think it's possible to grow things and there's much fun to be had as is so I keep the hobby going.
Thanks for watching! I 100% agree with you. On all points. And it really is one of those groupthink mentalities where everyone does it so I will do it as well. I won't go out of my way to try something new because the masses aren't doing it. It's such a simple and stupid mindset.
I think Games Workshop moving towards supporting mostly competitive play with rules and such was a mistake. I will say one of the most important things I learned about with wargaming in general, including with Games Workshop games, was to play people who you enjoy playing. I don't play the ebay army meta chasers, personally. With historicals I like to play with people who accept its a game, and who like playing with fully painted and nicely based armies on a nice table, that I can have a good conversation with as we play a friendly game.
Yeah, you are way more likely to have a good time playing those people that enjoy it for the sake of camaraderie and having fun.
So promoting game clubs in schools is really helpful for the hobby. I know many people in my area that got into D&D and wargaming from the clubs I. The high school.
It's a greater macro trend tbh more than it is about money. Like kids don't play in-person really anymore. A lot of outdoor activities are basically free (like just biking around or street hockey, etc.) and there are almost no kids around do that stuff. It's not useful to talk about prices from the 90's or earlier either because those conditions are not in place today. While I don't really like the cost, I cannot say it's the main driver behind why recruitment for 18 and under is very low.
Yeah I do think some of it is cultural change. Especially with technology. Almost nobody hangs out in person anymore, and I'm sure it's even more so for children.
@@LetsTalkTabletop yes agreed.
My first war game was Squad leader, played that system from 10years old. In 82 brought Atari 800XL and started playing war games with that due to lack of opponents. 91 all my Avalon Hill games got destroyed in a water incident. 93/94 started playing Dawn of War. That was my introduction to Warhammer, however all the metal figures were awful ( I was used to Tamyia quality). It wasn’t until COVID lockdown that I finally got Warhammer plastic. I’ve been playing on the tabletop since we came out of the lockdown. I’m in a league and there’s maybe 100 in the league with 35-50 playing any one time ( 5 game season). So 1976 was the year I started.
I believe that the recent influx of skirmish scale, miniatures-agnostic games bodes well for the miniature wargaming hobby's future. Many of these games are very easy to play, do not cost much to get into, and are not tethered to particular lines of pre-requisite miniatures. Introducing the younger generation to miniature gaming through these games can ensure the future of the hobby.
This is not my definition of wargaming. I wargame with flat cardboard squares with tiny roman legionnaires (or soldier divisions with numbers) painted on them. And those games are like 40 to 80 bucks a piece for everything (map, all the units, and LARGE rules booklets).
"Graphics don't matter, gameplay matters."
I can tell you that we are not a dying breed. I am 13 and i started warhammer two months ago. I managed to get three friends to start with it too. But that might be because i live in a rich country (sweden) and therefore kids get higher allowance here. But the recent price increase still hurts ALOT. anything worth 450 crowns jumped up to 490 crowns, which is about 5-6 dollars i believe. So it is much harder to justify this hobby to my parents lol.
My grandfather painted and recreated civil war battles. when i was 8 and showed me how to paint the models. i sucked and he did not play games. he just recreated the battle fields. i was a preteen in the 80s when i got into AD&D, a friend of my father gave me several chainmail rule books. then i discovered gw fantasy battles and rogue trader.
I have seen 2 teenagers in the last 10 years. my own son who is now 26 has no interest. and he says its a price point issue. and i cannot blame him with the price ranges of gw stuff. but you are correct, a video game is what 60 and some of them last for a while and has loads of replay. why spend a thousand on an army you may not like once you can actually play it.
I was 10yrs old when I got into the hobby and I never looked back, now 46, I'm introducing my son(13) to Mantics Kings of war and other games. But I know far more adults as actual gamers, then young people, but of my friends who have kids are all getting their minions into the hobby aswell, so I think it's up to us older gamers to pass the hobby torch down to younger generations. 😉
I was 22 when I got into D&D. I played for a while and then started painting minis at 25 and while looking for tutorials online, I discovered the world of Warhammer 40k and was hooked. Been a Wargamer/ Skirmish Wargamer ever since!
People are losing face to face social skills in the digital world where you just communicate over a head set. Also, you have to like painting, scratch building and reading and my buddy finds it easier just to play video game versions of the game. He has no patience for the tabletop.
I am 19. I started wargaming about 4 to 4 1/2 years ago, getting into Warhammer 40k at the start of ninth edition. I got into it with a group of 4-5 guys that played MTG. They were between 1-3 years older than me, and one a year younger than me.
Nothing lasts forever. Wish it could have lasted forever.
OH YE OF LIL FAITH... FEAR NOT FOR THE RUG RATS THEY SHALL INHERIT THE MINIATURES.
This hobby is too difficult to get into as a young kid. You need your own money really
You need to hold a knife (cutter), pliers and glue in this hobby. Is it not suitable for kids.
I think you’re right! My son (14) is the only teen I know of. When I started in the 90’s as a teenager I thought it was a kid thing because everyone I knew who played was a teen. I remember it being expensive then too though.
Along with D&D, young gamers can more easily get into CCGs. Back in the '90s I was buying Magic boosters with my allowance money, and nowadays there's Pokemon and Lorcana to entice the younger crowd. It's wild how GW has made/licensed multiple CCGs & LCGs over the years, but they never seemed to be taken seriously as a hobby onramp for newcomers.
Mid 30’s. I always found it interesting but never got into it until I went through my heroclix and mechwarrior phase.
I live in east Mississippi. No one sells table top war gaming materials in my area. I have to drive two hours in almost any direction to get anything!!
D&D, just visit my local book store and it is readily available.
im 22 got into hobby this year also in our hobby store we have discord where only young people are invited, there is 50 of us.
What does young people mean? How many of them are under 18?
@@LetsTalkTabletop young 15-30
Around 10 of them are 15-18
Hey! I have been trying to get my friends into wargaming and noticed a couple of difficulties. Might explain a few things. This hobby takes a lot of space, and not a lot of people can afford this space. After moving appartments i dont have a pile of shame anymore, just because i have no space for it. Skirmish games are great, i love space weirdos and my friends are enjoying it, yet lack of lore can be a double edged sword. Sure you can come up with your own lore, but it's nice to have a general vibe. Turnip28 is doing a lot in this, but it is very nieche. The last point is figuring out what this hobby is about. There is a lot of aspects to it, but what i've seen is that great lore and ability to express yourself in play are way more rewarding, than any kind of hardcore simulation. This would necesitate lighter and looser rules, but that would surely make it harder to play against people that you dont know, like in clubs.
Have you checked out Brutality Skirmish Wargame? You stat your own models out using the character creation system. Any genre or model range, and lore that supports it.
Wargaming something I wanted to get into the 90s, but my dad said no (so many days that could’ve been better spent). Fast forward to 42 and I have fallen in love with Bolt Action, I’ve been playing it for a couple years now and have made lots of friends doing it.
It saddens me, watching my two kids growing up 14 and 16 now, and totally addicted to technology. The thought of playing anything practical is just too much effort for them.
IMO: Boxed starter sets are the future of the hobby and it's something that GW fails to deliver in recent times because of greed i guess. There is always something missing in the recent releases, like terrain (big one), rulers or balanced armies (looking at you leviathan box). Even if they have a starter box like for kill team it's kinda shitty (terrain missing as well) - most of the time you will need to get something else, just to play the game. Corvus Belli has great starter boxes with a decent price that have everything in them. Halo Flashpoint from mantic presents itself more as a board game but it has everything as well. GW just misses out on parents buying their kids a one and done set.
Very good points! Even if the rest of the hobby were more expensive, affordable starter sets would get children in the door.
I never had as much time and energy for gaming as I had as teenager… but back then there was no way I could afford large armies with tend or hundreds of models. Plus quite frankly that side of the hobby hadn’t really taken off in my neck of words (this was late 80’s).
Unpopular opinion: wargaming is full of dorky and geeky people.
The payoff for the high price point, massive time investment, delayed gratification, and massive effort to find a club with consistent players, just to hang out with dorky/geeky middle aged dudes is incredibly low.
Its inherently unattractive for most people, children especially.
Wow. I know I'm dorky, but GEEKY!? You've gone too far sir! TOO FAR!
Great topic! My work is to teach kids to paint and play with miniatures. And I see a lot of the same problems. Actually Warhammer is a bad gateway game for wargaming. It’s not just the price point but the rules too. yet it’s the biggest and the one brand everyone have heard of.. I wonder why Star Wars legion and marvel crisis protocol isn’t bigger to the younger audience? They already know the IP.
At my work I have focused on One page rule. The rule set is really good and easy to learn and it’s fun for adults too. My son how is 5 years old and my we are playing it, and he understands the rules after to games!
Yeah, I'm surprised about marvel and Star wars as well. I don't know why younger people don't flock to that more for the IP alone.
Wow, your whole video is what I’ve been saying and what a few other gamers have been for years only to get shot down by a lot of the warhammer elites so I’ve glad you are getting this out there.
I guess I started out young I still play D&D which was of course the first rpg I ever played and still play but since then I’ve play soooo many others, I’ve always loved miniatures started with trains my first mini was a grenadier ninja 😄
I know of more adult war gamers (probably in the 30 to 40+ age range)
I don’t know of many or any younger wargamers
I know of more ttrpger’s from a wide range of ages.
Thanks for chiming in! So far everybody's responses have been mostly in line with what I thought. They don't know any children in the game, and most of them started in their younger years. There is a hardcore group of die hard Games Workshop Fanboys that will defend everything they do to the bitter end. Many people have made a personality out of being a Warhammer player.
@@LetsTalkTabletop I remember in the early 2000’s I was into warhammer and 40k, I had wanted to get my gaming group to play but that didn’t happen 🤷🏾♂️ and then I think that was when the year price increases started. After a year or so I told people I had to tap out with few gamers in my area at the time and the cost steadily climbing as much as I liked the minis there where plenty of other minis I could use for other games and minis I could paint that had a acceptable price. Even now I look at the price of some games and I get kinda ehhhh the price anxiety 🤷🏾♂️
Totally understandable. I have finally also reached that point with warhammer. Their prices are already ridiculous and they keep doing their annual price hikes
So I have a very different opinion on the subject because I ve been going to the Games Workshop boutique near me with my children who are 5 and 8, and there very often groups of young children who paint and try to understand the universe and the hobby.I think that the hachette miniatures and the Warhammer Alliance programme really work in order to bring people to the hobby
I'm 24. Started wargaming when I was 18. My friends had always been into Warhammer, but I didn't know where to start until I found a Dark Vengeance box set at a yard sale for 20 dollars. 6 years later, and I've got something like 15 armies across 8 different wargames. A lot of people my age are playing Warhammer, at least in the area I live. I hear Age of Sigmar's main target audience is young people, but it's fairly dull no matter how hard they try to rip of WoW.
I started at 43. Its been an absolutely amazing experience.
No. of Juvenile Wargamers: 0 that I personally know, and have not seen any since I was young
No. of Adult Wargamers: 8 that I personally know; have seen dozens at local shops
Age I started: 13, via The Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game
I am 46 and started when I was a junior in college. I do not know a single kid playing tabletop games but I still have a small crew of about 10 adults to throw dice with. I have tried to play different games in the last 20+ years as I have a large collection of Warmachine/Horde, Kings of War, 40K, LotR, Infinity, X-Wings, Armada, ASOIAF, Battle Tech and Runewars. I guess we can add the legion and Flames of war as well as few more games which I can't recall their names to that list of 'have collection but no longer played' games. I really do hate the price gauging and power creeping of GW and supported other gaming company with my wallet but the end result is piles of plastics sitting in a storage costing me additional $140 each months. So, I just don't want to start another game and just will continue to play the WHFB, now called TOW. It is the only game which I can find an opponent to play against. I know it is so much easier to find an opponent in 40K, but I hate 40K so that doesn't count for me. :) Lastly, I have been exposing the wargames to my two girls but they just want their tablets so I am guessing the wargamer ends with me unfortunately. :( If you ask me, the cost of entry for GW games are very high and has a lot to do with not getting the young blood, but more to do with this young generation just aren't used to committing hours well in advance to schedule for games. Just think for a moment on how much prep involved to play a game on a Saturday afternoon. Start with getting the kitchen pass, then find an opponent whose availability aligns with yours, then getting your army list set up, transport it, set up the table, clean up after a game, transporting the army back home, then storing them. It is a lot of work. None of my teenaged nephews/nieces have such time. They don't mind playing MTG or Smash-ups with uncle, but no miniature games, period. Uncle would have given them whatever they want to play freely, but they don't want them.
I’m a 23 year old game design student just getting into killteam after 5 years of running ttrpgs. (My good friend is teaching me) I’m looking to build a modest astra militarum force painted like helldivers. I painted my first space marine at pax unplugged 2023 which I’d probably say was the biggest draw for me. Im still trying to figure out the rules tho… that’s probably the biggest hurdle as far as the dnd5e to 40k10e transition goes. Warhammer thrives on its tactical tangibility as a central appeal of the hobby. Sure you can use a vtt but games workshop is designing the rules with a bunch of miniatures and a table in mind. Dnd just requires less cognitive “buy in” and materials to experience now that computers are so prevalent.
I started playing around 12-13 years old. I currently play lots of 15mm sci fi skirmish games, £20 will get you 2 opposed forces (approx 40 figures) for less than a single 40K squad or character model. I know 7 or 8 under 18s who play, probably a similar number of adults. We have a local games club that promotes all sorts of games and nurtures younger players well. GW themselves are one of the biggest hurdles for new people to start wargaming due to price and constant rules shift, which is why I ditched them 10 years ago and have been far happier in my gaming ever since.
I think regardless of the fact, and it truly is that, that wargaming populations are aging, we should have some faith that the hobby will never truly go away when we look at the digital alternatives basically doing the recruiting for us, as gamers mature and look for alternatives, ESPECIALLY when we look at the extent that large studios/companies are shooting themselves in the foot with predatory live services that prioritise extortionate profit maximising over player experience.
Video games and expanded media likely play a role getting that exposure. This was how I got started at age 19. Dawn of War was my introduction to 40k and one of my friends who played 40k convinced me to go to the GW in the local mall and give it a look. Bought the Black Templar 4th edition codex while there and still play them to this day, though I took nearly 8 years off from the hobby.
1) I know 3 teenagers through my local club, and my 5 year old son plays 40k with me in the house. That would be compared to around 60 adults I know that wargame.
2) I started Hero Quest when I was 9, 40k when I was 12 and WFB when I was 15.
I sold all of my stuff a few years ago mainly because I saw writing on the wall:
1:) Primaris marines. Those guys are going to replace the first born models. Wait and see.
2:) I forgot what it was called, legacy rules I think, where they made chaos lords with jump packs illegal in tournaments? What? You mean this model I spent money on I can no longer use?
3:) More recently, I heard something about half of the Stormcast Eternals models were being retired. Welp, everyone has to buy whatever the new meta is.
GW is trying to turn buying models into a subscription service.
I will never get back into war gaming unless I have a 3D printer.
dont know any kids, and yeah probably know close to 100 adults. I started at 24 - but really it was only because i moved to UK - couldnt afford it in my country. Also got bad news for you : GW knows the hobby is sinking and they just accept it - milking the whales, more and more exclusive and collectible stuff, licensing to Amazon, comics, action figures and general merch - it will be less and less about games in games workshop....
I actually have the same feeling. I think they know that 3D printing is becoming more of a threat everyday and they're just milking it for all they can while they can.
I remember me and my brother playing computer wargames at like 10? And we made our own table top ones at 10 or 11 using colored tack's to represent various units on a piece of cardboard, then later played all quiet on the western front board game a lot. My first wargaming set was a box of space wolves in 3rd edition? Mostly played using friends more complete armies, and played a lot of Mordhiem.
Warhammer may be expensive, but its community is WAY WAY WAY more welcoming to new players than any other wargaming community by a huge margin.
My first love has always been history and once I found out historical wargames were a thing, I jumped right in, but while a lot of historical gamers are very welcoming I will say I have encountered way too many people who would rather see historical wargaming die than be anything less than toxic to people under 60. Warhammer is too expensive, but historical's have a lot of flaws which I think cause them to have the issues they have attracting new people.
I think Warlord Games is doing a lot to make Historical's much more accessible than they historically have been, and much easier to play.
With how expensive it is to get into them, especially GW's games, it is absolutely dying or will be. There's also an intimidating level of "entry skill" since you likely have to build you models, build terrain, paint everything, and be fluent in a large ruleset. Most'll probably turn to a total war game instead, since they cam just jump into the game.
I was 12 when I got into dnd. 14 when I got into warhammer fantasy which quickly turned to 40k once it became more flushed out. I have 3 boys and each of them show interest in playing which I support (10, 13,17). The 17 year old is much more invested with a full army for 40k etc. .
I think things will turn around. It takes time. No one thought fantasy battles would come back. There will be a nostalgic renewal. Other forms of entertainment is getting more attention is getting more expensive. I’m hoping will get game companies to focus on adults like it was in in the older days. I think that would help greatly.
For me the models of alternative games are not as good. I have been seduced by competitor models and even bought a few but when they are there in front of you their final form is not as obvious as it is with a GW model. You may have a unpainted GW model in front of you but the potential is obvious (to me at least). This is not so with competitor models, the proportions are off, or the sculps just don't sit well. This is IMHO...I have reduced my GW spend to almost nothing now and seeking out new models bhut the lure of GW is strong.
I know a couple teenagers that play Warhammer, but the overwhelming majority are adults.
I'm in my 40s and I started playing D&D in middle school and got into Warhammer in high school. My collection was made up of what I got for birthdays and gifts and whatever money I could scrounge up from the jobs I had. It was very much a broke hammer scenario with me and my 2-3 friends who also played.
After highschool, I reverted to the video games for entertainment because due to lack of space and money in my early 20s.
I circled back around to D&D with some adult friends when I was in my late 20s.
Then I was reintroduced to Warhammer in my early 30s. Between the nostalgia and the desire to have a creative outlet, I jumped back into the hobby.
And being an adult with adult money, I felt so Ike I could enjoy Warhammer the way I had dreamed when I was in high school.
I think cost is probably one of the biggest barriers to younger wargamers right now. I personally don't subscribe to all of the "kids nowadays" gnashing of teeth and ringing of hands that the Gen X and Millennial gamers are casting at the kids. Especially since Gen Z and Alpha are literally our kids....that we raised. And it's the same thing Boomers say about us. LMFAO
I didn't know you had been playing so long!
@@LetsTalkTabletop Cardboard Ork Dreadnought Gang
@@DaddyOandSon Aghh good old 2nd edition.
In my opinion, D&D is not a competing product. I and others play RPGs and wargames. The competition is probably more with consoles and PCs. When it comes to pricing, I have to agree with you. Children under the age of 15 usually have the imagination to get along without rules. We lose this imagination and replace it with rules. Many children will come to us later, as long as we show what is possible.
My son has now started painting and collecting miniatures. He only plays very little. I got into this area and role-playing game when I was 16 or 17, but initially had to come up with my own rules because - in Germany - no rules were available commercially.
I got into wargaming aged 14 and a quater. I started of with 20mm then 15mm historicals, then 28mm sci fi.
Bro i started in my laptop playing Warhammer 40k (dawn of war ) at 10 😂😂😂😂