I’m 17 and I’ve only begun to get into Wargaming but it’s historical all the way for me. 1/72 Late Roman Ancients is my thing, and I’ve somehow managed to convince five of my friends to join me in a campaign that I’m organising. So I for one refuse to let historical wargaming go quietly into the night!
You can go back to the very roots of the game with ancient campaigns. Try the ideas of Tony Bath, who started the Society of Ancients. If you can get access to Amazon Kindle editions, its on there, very cheap, "Tony Bath's Ancient Wargaming" Very old, but some good ideas.
Little Wars TV When I started out you were probably the first wargaming channel that I found which gave good advice, so thank you so much, you helped me a lot!
Good for you Curtis, keep the hobby going. Wargaming is one of the few areas in life that has not gone PC or attempts to rewrite History. Are you Gaming in metals or plastic? Hat Co. has a great diversity of figs in your area of interest in plastic HO. All the best ~RS
I'm 16 and have been into historical wargames since I was 10. I'm a huge history buff and love acting out battles in the miniature. However the hardest part is finding people to play
Yeah that is the tough part. I’m 27 my best advice is if you can’t find any friends to play or a local businesses with other players try to get a girlfriend and make her play haha. Good luck to you dude! Love to see ppl interested in history.
In the 1970s we were going to die because of D&D, in the 1980s we were going to die because of Warhammer, in the 1990s we were going to die because of Magic the Gathering. Wargaming will continue, but it will change.
Elliott James - You missed out computer gaming in the 1980s. It’s what stole the minds of both my brothers, and made me have to go out and search for a wargames club for opponents. Sadly, neither of them ever returned to figure gaming of any kind.
I think people that proclaim the doom of Wargaming fail to realise who created it, old, affluent prussian generals and nobles. These younger things, DnD, Warhammer, and Magic are more oriented towards wider and younger audiences. They might eat up a bit of Historical Wargaming's market share, but not kill it.
I would like to state, I am 25. I wrote and still developing my own wargame in WWII. I host 4 events a year at my local library. I have on average 15-20 players all my friends and friends of friends. I started this game when I was in High School at age 18. I have been tinkering with my ruleset for a long time now and finally have a friend who is a graphic designer. We will be printing it shortly. Have no fear it is growing.
I’m 19 and have been interested in historical wargaming since I was probably 14. Currently i run a small group of 5-6 guys and girls my age and we play several eras! Napoleonic, War of the Roses and WWII. I wish more people my age played.
I started when I was about 14, with a home-made battleground, and I think matchbox tanks and artillery, and some home-cast lead soldiers, representing Germany v Russia at Stalingrad. That was thought-provoking.
I’m 19 and have been wargaming since I was 14 and have only ever played historical as I’m totally history crazed! Their are so many interesting aspects of history that I struggle to even imagine how people could find history boring.
Agreed, Daring Dare! There are so many fascinating stories and characters to explore. We just need to find ways to help more people realize how much fun it can be to explore those real-life events.
Little Wars TV perhaps we can attract people to historical wargaming by showing how smart and intellectual a person looks when quoting and debating history compared to fantasy and science fiction!
Same there are so many things in history but people say that it is boring simply because they think that history has a lot to read but they dont understand reading and putting it into practical is different. They just dont even want to hear or play.
@@daringdare5078 The world seems to be going away from reading. I for one love reading and have since I was a kid. That's is truly how I became interested in history.
I feel like a lot of these kinds of discussions don't touch on one of the key parts of the hobby - ongoing costs/practicalities. Historicals aren't cheap to start, often require quite a bit of prior knowledge or research, and have more subtle expenses such as likely travelling further for a game than you'd have to if you played something GW. One of those things on its own would make it a challenge to someone under the age of 25, never mind all of them at once.
If I buy a box of Warhammer 40k orks, I know I'll be able to find people to play against. But if I buy a box of 10mm Sengoku Jidai Takeda cavalry... will I ever get to use them? It's a lot harder, that's for sure. Getting into historical wargaming in your own is almost impossible - you need a club, and then you need to adjust your collection and army to what's already in that club. Playing your 10mm samurais against 28mm Wehrmacht isn't really an option.
@@frankverdino477 add glue, paint, basing material, storage, game accessories - that's assuming having people who will play your rules and also have 1/72 minis - and we still have to factor in research and other expenses.
@@frankverdino477 Truedat As well as being comparatively cheap, here in Australia 1/72 figures are also usually the only other wargaming models available in general toy and hobby shops (apart from space ork stuff) as they have long been a popular scale for historical modellers, meaning there is a vast range of figures and vehicles. The range of periods available has also expanded greatly over recent years. As a bonus, they are scale compatable with the broad hobby of HO railways, meaning the terrain options are huge. I got back into WWII wargaming after a hiatus (GW burnout) and have been able to affordably acquire rules (Chain of command) and figures enough for several basic factions (Germans, English and French) , meaning that I have been able to entry sponsor my brother and a couple of friends, who are now enthusiastic enough that they are beginning to collect their own stuff. All this for around the cost of one small 40k army.
I think Historicals are quite cheap to buy, especially when compared to Games Workshop. £35 for 10 Space Marine Primaris Intercessors, compared to £29.50 for 30 WWII Infantry from Warlord Games, or £20 for a Perry Miniatures box containing anywhere between 36 and 44 infantry.
If you're looking for that the Travel Battle from Perry miniatures is what you're looking for. It has a complete set of rules, all the figures you need (they are 6mm napoleonic-ish figures), a hard-plastic board with terrain features such as villages, forests and fields and some dice. The assembling process is very fast and easy (if you want you can paint the whole board and figures but that is not really necessary) and the rules are pretty much easy to learn. The game was officially made for travelling gamers who want to play something while they're not home or at their gaming club but it can work as a standalone wargame and can provide lots of fun, plus it's a great entry to the hobby. Here is the link if you want to check it out www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?products_id=3637
"Blood & Plunder", "Oak & Iron" and "Blood and Valor" are produced by the american company Firelock Games and are quite popular historical wargames. Hence there are still american produced wargames.
Blood and Plunder is the ONLY wargame I play. It has a relatively young crowd and seems to be growing in popularity. I really feel like this video was poorly researched to have no reference to Firelock Games.
I have been playing since Don Featherstone and Charles Grant broke on the scene in the 1960's. I started the wargames club at my university. The students' union of the time were very suspicious that I was seeking to set up some right-wing militarist thing and had to be placated. They knew nothing of what a hobby wargame was. In those days it was Airfix figures, converted, where necessary, for most. Since then the hobby has just exploded in terms of what is out there - stuff we never dreamed of. Naval at all scales, fantasy wargaming with Warhammer etc. 15mm brought the price of figures down for a while, then they started to climb. But the latest versions of things like Black Powder and Bolt Action with low-density games and cheaper plastic figures have made it more affordable and practical again. You can play them on a table set up in the average living room quite easily. The other thing that happened was the growth of the Avalon Hill - style boardgame which had also started in the '60s. That is now a massive sector on its own. And the dreaded computer game, there is a huge cross-over potential from the wargames people find there into physical figures. There may be sections of the hobby that might seem "grey", as I am now, but I think that wargaming in general is alive and kicking.
A quick hurrah for Messrs Featherstone and Grant. Plus Tunstill, Scruby etc etc. I am in my 8th decade and still play solo games using the 'old' rules in deepest darkest rural Wales.
Started in the early 70s with Airfix plastics. Played last night teaching 2 younger players the ropes of "Clash of Spears" a new skirmish ancients game. It's a different hobby now and much more inclusive. Nearly everyone I know play many types of game and are happy to cross over from historical games to other formats.
I agree ...when I was getting properly started during the Featherstone Era the choice and quality of figures was simply not there, whereas now you can buy virtually anything you can think of and in a profusion of different scales. Meanwhile DBA, in my opinion the most important rules set ever (while by no means perfect) is in its third edition after 30 years and offers an easy and low-cost intro to all sorts of different periods and armies ...but for many younger people the flashy allure of super-expensive spacemen, wizards and whatnot is impossible to resist. The best of them will eventually become historical gamers.
I started in the 1960's with home brew rules, Airfix figures and Roco Minitanks (accurate scale be d*mned!). Back then our gaming was driven as much by the modeling as the playing, and we had all the time in the world (after school) to get it done. Much older, with many more years behind than ahead, I now chose games like Wings of Glory/Sails of Glory that have prepainted components instead of spending hours prepping playing pieces. I wonder if many potential, younger players feel the same?
Funny thing is, figures, rules and terrain, and info about how to acquire them, is in many ways more available now than ever before, mostly because of that whole internet thingy. As an example, there are countless tutorials on yewchoob about cheap ways to make your own terrain, as well as many 'battle reports' that allow you to observe different rule mechanics in action in order to help decide which best suits your tastes. In the end though, the fastest way to grow the hobby is to lead by example and actively participate in it.
@@corvusboreus2072 most people would rather just get something convenient like axis and allies or risk. Miniature war gaming you gotta find a book, learn all the rules, find miniatures that are pre painted, get the right terrain, it's all a pretty big hassle for most people that just wanna open a box and play on occasion.
@@rc59191 then the question becomes 'how do we make tabletop historical wargaming accessible for people who don' t want to bother collecting and painting figures and terrain, or even take the time to read rules? ' My only practical answer would be swallow the extra time, effort and money it takes to spoon feed them in the hope that a deeper genuine interest develops. This is precisely what I have done with my brother and a couple of old friends where I have created terrain (mostly scratch built) and assembled/based/painted figures enough for several forces (1/72 plastics) and bought a ruleset (chain of command) that I can walk them through. It has worked insofar as not only do I have people to play with/against who are gradually becoming intuitively familiar with the basic rules, but have started expressing serious interest in collecting their own forces. Mind you, these were all longtime personal friends with keen to moderate interest in military history, so the initial investment seemed worthwhile. As for the 'huddled masses yearning to be free', all I can offer by way of suggestion is, when covid permits, to take the trouble to set up visually appealing demonstration games at wider public events (comic conventions, open days etc) and answer all enquiries in a genuinely welcoming fashion.
I can imagine a firm producing a ‘battle in a box’. Prepainted and pre-based figures and AFVs, stylised terrain, and a playing mat. Rules and all dice and counters included. It would have to be no bigger than, say 12mm scale. But even if made and packaged in China it’s might be difficult to get the price down to an acceptable level. And a mass market probably wouldn’t tolerate anything as complex even as Bolt Action, which is a far from satisfactory rule set if you know anything about warfare.
I’m one of the only 16 yo I’ve ever known who plays historicals. I feel like the older generations are definitely the people really keeping the historical side of the miniature hobby alive.
Everyone forgets us younger folk are poorer, we didn't grow up in the 50s where you got a c-suite job with a high school diploma and paid off your house on minimum wage in 10-20 years. We can barely afford food, let alone having to spend 20 dollars for one unit for a game that's likely diffficult to actually play in terms of players, distance, actually having the same minis, etc. it's more convenient to spend 400 dollars on a cheap pc or the a majour console that I will guaranteed get years usage out of, then spend the same price in minis, paints, bases, cases, transportation etc for a game I might get to play once a year. Star Wars legion is the only thing that comes close to a somewhat popular game at a budget it even then that's a hefty price tag for someone living paycheck to paycheck. I won't even get in to the ridiculousness that is prices for age of sigmar minis.
Wages cut cut in half in the 70's and never really recovered. My parents tried to tell me once that they only made 5 bucks an hour tipped minimum wage, which is worth 150% of the 11.10 regular minimum now. I think they could afford to make it a lot cheaper though if we got some good machinists and roboticists in on the manufacturing end. GW pays around 10k for an injection die, most of my friends in the industry they could do 2k easily.
I haven't bought a new Gw miniature in about 20 years. I exclusively buy used models or alternate companies, which tend to be just as expensive. I am a bit spoiled being near a major city of millions, so the stores which sell used Gw products have a great variety and have great prices. The idea that you need 100% GW models to play still holds firm with many, but the odds that you'll be playing in an official sponsored GW Tournament is very low and I'm pretty sure most stores have almost no policy on enforcing it for their local groups. The D&D miniature line has some great options for various units if you are a bit creative.
Chris Lundgren is wings of glory even in print anymore? The companies official site doesn't have them for sale, third party games sellers tend to have like 2 planes each, and amazon has variety but low stock. I looked into it after watching these guys play it only to find the publisher doesn't even sell them anymore and everywhere I looked was either low variety or low stock.
@@deogthepoeg7872 Yes it is still being made it is still available there is also dedicated Facebook groups for it as well. The Guild House in Bellflower has it in stock as well as the War House in Long Beach Ca. facebook.com/groups/FansOfWOG/ this group can help you
I wanted to get into the Historical wargaming. Bought lots of 1/72 scale Napoleonic and Roman era models because they were cheap and I could quickly build an army of them. Why did I stop? 1) there were only 5 guys in my country that played Napoleonic era and insanely they went with 28mm scale. So in order to play with them I'd have to basically spend more to get the army I wanted in the right scale (if its not any of the major nations of the Napoleonic Wars your essentially screwed for trying to keep costs down) 2) none of my friend wanted anything to do with historical wargaming. Its has a very high bar in both cost and research to get into. Added to this, whats exciting about fighting line battles when you could be playing a sci-fi game with super powerful weapons with weird rules, or fantasy games where magic can cause untold devastation. There is little scope for imagination with historical wargames. Hell, the historical purists in the hobby really dislike the idea of just playing pick up games or points costs. To them, you sit and do research, paint your models as historically as you can research and then research and replay famous battles. Thats far too much work to ask new people to get on board with, yet most of the old guard in the community do not accept much else, and most rule sets dont give you the option for easy pick up games as they dont come with points costs or special rules for the different nations. Right now, the only thing i can do with my historical miniatures is to use them in games of Warhammer 40k or other such games because im more likely to be able to arrange a game of that than anything historical. The hobby as a whole isn't dying, but its not growing as well as it should. A trickle is not sustainable.
OK a couple of ideas, you can use counters for units, no figures needed. Most rules have points values for shopping list armies because (in the UK) thats what most games are, a 2 hour game at the local club to an agreed points value. As for not having super weapons, thats the point, you are suppose to out think your opponent, not beat them with super weapons. Use the terrain to your advantage, gain the tactical edge (usually by beating your opponent a bit at a time) and if a game is historical, you have the lessons of history to tell you how to do it.
@@zedeyejoe Just countering the points 1) the whole point of a miniatures bases table top game is to play with the miniatures. Using counters just defeats the purpose and if your in a game store/club playing the game your not going to gain anyone looking over to admire the quality of the minitures...because there aren't any to look at. I've gotten into games by just looking at the miniatures on offer, watching the game being played amd by the next week I have something I can use to play a small first game. Using counters just doesn't do that. 2) most rules I've seen and been recommended do not come with points costs. Black Powder has some supplements with points values, but the games designer has stated many times he doesnt like the idea, and therefore the points used just arent balanced. 3) my point about super weapons was that the lack of them doesn't make for an exciting setting. Most people aren't at all bothered about history, and especially military history and so sci-fi and fantasy settings attract them more. Its hard to get people excited to play a historical based game when there is nothing to really draw them in except brightly coloured uniforms. How you are supposed to play the games using historical formations and stratagems when there are other games that allow them to "slaughter xeno scum" with rocket propelled machine guns, or bolts of eldritch lightning. There really isn't any competition when put into those terms.
Great video! While there is graying within the hobby, I also see many green shoots. My 13 YO loves gaming WWII with me, and he has become a real history buff. A few weeks ago, he had a friend over who saw some of our 15mm models, then the two of them proceeded to play a game of Flames of War! The more we can all encourage this, the more our hobby will thrive...
Skirmish is in ascendency. People want to get into playing fast. So businesses selling historical miniatures for games that require huge figure counts will of course say the industry is dying. GW sees this; Kill Team, Warcry etc are low figure count, fast skirmish games that "lead in" to the bigger games. Some people introduced into gaming via this route expand beyond it, into other genres including historical.
My son is seven and he loves historical boardgames. We've recently picked up some Bolt Action figures but haven't gotten them to the table yet due to his fixation on Space Hulk and Imperial Assault.
Space Hulk is a great game, bought it again on re release some years ago. Game mechanics are similar to Bolt Action so you are on a winner there. Main thing is to let them roll dice and have fun, the rest will follow IMHO..
Historical gaming is not dying. Historical gamers are... sorry for the cheap shot, I feel very old lately... I'm a keen historical gamer and after all these years I still love this hobby like the first day, possibly more. So all I can say is: get those dice rolling, because I can't see a future without gaming. Cheers from Italy!
I have been playing for decades and both of my sons also play. I see the problem is with wargamers. We need to mentor and be more friendly especially at conventions. Just my 2 cents. Love the channel
I'm 29 and just getting started with historicals, specifically around the Roman conquest of Britain. Stopped playing Warhammer around 8 years ago, spending more time playing PC games like Total War, company of heroes etc. These led me to read lots more history books, which have in turn got me itching to paint and play on the tabletop again. Regarding the cost of historicals - as someone who has dabbled with the idea of playing GW games again over the last couple of years, they actually seem extremely affordable in comparison! In my case, for example, I picked up the Infamy, Infamy rules from TooFatLardies, a Roman force (about 80 models) and a Celtic force (150 models), plus a load of trees, mdf movement trays and an mdf Celtic building for under £200. The models are from Victrix, and absolutely beautiful. Another bonus is that when they can be used for a wide range of rulesets, should I get tired of this one.
In my opinion, part of the issue has to do with a lack of introductory games. The only local convention I know of is Recruits (awesome people, I meet the organizer at a band event a few years back) and there aren't really any 'pick-up-and-play' historics that people run. I'm talking games like Axis and Allies that you can just sit down and play without really any prior knowledge of the conflict. If a manufacturer made an all-in-one box set for napoleonics or ACW of a similar style (with rules like Altar of Freedom, summarized in 2 pages), I'm sure it would help expand into younger demographics.
People dont start with miniatures, you start with low cost boardgames like Squad Leader, then move UP into miniatures. minis cost too much. But with inflation even the old AH Squad Leader, or better yet remember MBT? I bought it in the 90s for $20. Well its follow up versions are still sold by the original author, only now its $100.
I'm 24 and I got my start in wargaming with Warhammer 40k. I am, however, looking into Flames of War and Team Yankee and own most of Warlord Game's historical rulebooks, including Black Powder, SPQR, and Pike and Shotte. I actually found this channel yesterday and it is encouraging me to explore historical wargaming more.
Hithere. I am playing Bolt Action with a small group in norther Germany. We are all between 30 and 45. But I also play Warhammer 40k, most of the 40k players are slightly younger. But I also experienced that the younger ones start with 40k and/or Age of Sigmar and then later find their way to other tabletops. So naturally they are older when they start historical wargames, but this does not mean historical wargamming is dying.
The biggest bugbear is painting and assembling the damned things. This is a process you have to go through, almost by default, since there's an aesthetic aspect that is strong in the hobby. I have purchased pre-painted miniatures in the past that look the part (Battlefield Evolution: Modern Combat), but you ultimately pay for the Chinese paint job.
I think David Ensteness hit the nail on the head for why most people don't get into historical wargaming. Me and my fellow broke college student friends all play wh40k, and while I've been gently pushing to try out some historical scenarios, they haven't been receptive. Old, retired men have the time and capital to sink into a heavily research-based hobby. We don't. Games Workshop makes it easy, which is why they're making a money hand over fist while historical wargaming is circling the drain.
Yeah, my group is all 40k, Legion, and Frostgrave. We bust out Might of Arms on special occasions, but we have the fortune of access to an extensive 15mm collection from my mate's parents.
If you can afford GWs 40K models you can easily afford Warlord's Bolt Action for example. Those of us who played 40K v2 can see a lot of its mechanics in BA. I think tabletop games are strong outside the US but historical gaming seems to be very "old school" inside the US as a generalisation.
Has it ever occurred to you that part of your group's penury might be that you are gaming with one of the most expensive figure ranges and ruleset in the market? Take a moment to research the range and price of 1/72 historical figures, and do a bang for buck comparison with the GW range. Then consider the comparative costs of other rulesets, bearing in mind that most don't require the constant rule and codex updates that GW games demand. There is certainly validity to arguments for Warhammer etc in terms of their popular accessibility, but definitely not in terms of value for money. By the way, historical rulesets also tend to be more instructive to reality than fantasies constructed around orks in space. Something for a poor student to consider.
@@corvusboreus2072 1:72 figures aren't really an apples to apples comparison in terms of figures, since they are a lot smaller than 32mm and usually softer and simpler on the sculpts.
@@Hepabytes I realise that, but, in the end, they are all just toys on a table. If you'd prefer one largish shiny apple over a whole big basket of mixed fruit then that is your choice.
Plus I never have to worry about finding people to play with. I try to get my friends and some coworkers into Bolt Action I got some interest but it never took off.
@@brentwhite7150 I happened to get lucky and found a guy selling a bunch of German minis he couldn't finish for cheap so now I have a 90~ man German company. I also get Allied minis for Christmas often to fight them
I'm a graybeard but my 14 year old son is active in the hobby (and has been for several years). He started a club at his middle school and has introduced the hobby to 10-12 fellow students. That's how we grow the hobby. We find (or spawn) champions within the target demographic, encourage them, help them with material ( terrain is key) and what ever other support we can. Of those 10-12 , three of them now have their own miniature collections and regularly participate outside of school in gaming events locally and regionally.
I play rank and file fantasy games, the 9th age primarily, and we run into a similar problem. Getting new players interested in war gaming, one way we have been able to gain new players is by play at stores not our basements, pre-pandemic at least. I also have been interested in history from a very young age, primarily the French and Indian war and American revolution, due to growing up in Western Pennsylvania and going to reenactments. I have not gotten in to historical war gaming mostly due to the lack of a local group/scene.
As a former Fantasy player myself, the problem with T9A is similar to the issue with Historicals - you just don't have a market there. You're trying to "sell" a game specifically to the folks who played WHFB, but who *aren't* just playing WHFB with their friends in the basement. There are whole communities playing 'OldHammer' and 'MiddleHammer' and have the opinion that if something's not broke, don't fix it. People who want a tournament scene, conventions, etc are all playing 'Kings of War' or begrudgingly switched to 'Age of Sigmar'. Even harder, because it's not like T9A has established an ecosystem. New players who want to play High Elves have to scrounge to find models and won't have the nice GW plastics that probably got them into the army. Even returning players are faced with trying to collect new armies at eye-watering FleaBay prices. On a more personal note - I think that T9A was actually the nail in the coffin for the 8e WHFB community. In every other scenario that a game went belly-up, people kept playing it and kept it alive as it had been. 'Blood Bowl' for example, and the old editions of WHFB. When 8th bottled, the tournaments suddenly dried up. A bunch of people went to KoW, a few went to T9A, and plenty just petered-out with no big events to go to. If the ETC guys, Masters, and the T9A had put their energy into maintaining a thriving 8th edition community instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, the people who hit the Masters circuit in 2014 would have come back out in 2015 and kept coming.
@@SlyBlu7For me it was being able someone to play with, my group currently has 8 locally that play 9th age, so I play 9th age. We also have an active tournament scene that typically runs 4 to 6 tournaments a year with between 30 to 50 players at each. I know not everyone likes to go to tournaments, but to keep an active and growing community you need both the friendly games and the competitive games. If my group would have stuck with 8th for longer I would have kept playing 8th, but one of the problems with playing old hammer is nothing changes and the game begins to get boring. At least with a living game like 9th age somethings change to keep it feeling fresh.
My problem with 9th Age is that it's based on 8th edition - the version that broke Fantasy with its terrible magic system, hordes, buses, simplified movement and laser guided war machines. It's much better to play 6th edition and just house rule it so that units fight in 2 ranks and make 5 models the normal unit frontage instead of 4 (like in 7th).
Warlord games is going strong in my region. They have some amazing introductory rulesets like bolt action or black powder. Easy to learn, fun to play plus a lot of support. I believe historical wargaming is in a good state right now as there are many young players coming to historical wargaming from games workshop rulesets.
David E is spot on! Hoping more companies understand this - right or wrong people need a 'system' to buy into. It is very hard to find historical groups if there is no center of gravity (i.e. a known brand/set of rules).
Applaud you for looking at a gateway game - reminds me of my first napoleonic boardgame - For me it comes down to 1) accessibility of more clubs that advertise and are welcoming to new players, 2) not in public as much as we could be - particularly in supporting local game stores - so much is bought online because in store inventories are hard to maintain for all periods and manufacturers - if the shift to 3d printing isnt made - perhaps a catalog like walthers that local game stores can have with easy ordering plans 3) Atlas for model railroading used to produce a free booklet that showed you easy to complex layouts - with materials listed - easy to use 4) Understand we have "channels" from historical interest, painting, gaming and so on - a club generally merges those, for someone with no clubs there are different entries for each and 5) Scale creep - too many scales - period 2mm, 6mm, 10mm, 15mm, 18mm, 25mm, 28mm, etc up to 54mm - including in ship and plane scales and we go even further - If I am a new gamer - with all the other questions - which way do I go - Final thought I got my start with airfix 1/72 and 1/32 with a couple of colors on them - then eventually moved on to buying some of the pre-painted mikes models and some second hand figures to play
i remember the old wargamers in the 90's saying the same thing. i think we are spoiled with the amount of talented sculptors, game designers, painters, clubs, high quality you tube channels, great wargame companies, personalities in the field. its getting time to play the flippin games amongst friends that is a problem today. also i personally find the cost of the hobby expensive now, not as much disposable income nowadays but i do have a fairly good collection from the past 40 years of gaming to keep me going. brilliant video, i would have really liked to see the rest of the interviews.
I'm 46 and I will put it to you like this... WW1 and WW2 had such an impact on society giving most people that connection and influence with people involved in these events that also created the world we were all living in. As those now grow up without that generation like myself talking to grandparents and their direct experiences in the second world war directly influenced my love of history and how these events they were involved in came about. This love also led to exploring other times in history for gaming.. Remember the 1980s we were drowning in books of WW2, now people have moved on to other events..
What a great topic. I must admit, being into this hobby on and off since the late 1970s, that we are in " a new golden age " with the hobby in general, historical, and fantasy/sci-fi
Welcome Back! So glad you are hitting the ground running! Trying to bring new, i.e. younger players in to historicals is really no harder than getting them into any other genre. When I had my game store, I had to point out to many a parent that balked at the entry price, that this was NOT a game, this was a hobby, and one that would possibly last a life time. I also have found that games like 'What a Tanker', really brings the younger crowd out. I went from a quick demo at the LGS to playing with a core group of kids, (to me!) every Thursday night. Sometimes dads, moms, and older siblings stop by to see what the fuss is about. So historicals declining in popularity? No, but as others pointed out, it isn't many new players first pick.
Been gaming for over 30 years, one pattern I have seen, is that the majority of people who are new to the wargaming hobby start off with the Fantasy/Sci-Fi games, and as they get older develop a taste and interest in Historical wargaming. I have long suspected it is partly based in a burn out of the game design of Warhammer and the like. Too heavily focused on flashy special rules that require little tactical depth.
I'm a 48 year old who has been intrigued by the idea of historical wargaming since my teenage years. But only entered the hobby a year ago, thanks to stumbling across Little Wars TV. Thanks guys! So why did it take so long? 1) Inaccessible: Had no idea where to start with rules, miniatures, etc. There needs to be some sort of 'entry drug' into historicals, like Warhammer 40K and similar games for sci fi/fantasy. Bolt Action, Flames of War and similar are close, but not quite. There is still a lot of 'what do I need to buy to play a game' questions involved. A solid big boxed set of everything, or even a direct list of what to buy to get started would help. It took me a long time after starting down the Little Wars TV rabbit hole until I figured out what to play and what I needed/where i could buy it. 2) No players: I play a lot of RPGs, and thankfully one of the other guys is interested in historical too. So solved that problem recently.
Loved this video. Can't wait for the next video. This is a topic that definitely needs discussed and we do need to take some action to move the hobby forward. Thanks for tackling this.
I am 28 and have been gaming since I was 12. My first entry into the hobby was warhammer 40k but since then I have mostly moved my interests into smaller companies sci fi lines for skirmish gaming. A small fast paced battle is what suits me most these days! I do also collect a lot of historical models, mainly ancient, some ACW, some boxer rebellion and ww1 and ww2. My main problem is finding people to play with, so I have sort of settled into a collecting and painting role. That said it would be great to get into club gaming again!
Great question and a great idea to ask representatives from the hobby what they think. Having wargamed as a lad, I have now returned to it and love it. Yes I am long in the tooth but most at our club are on the young side and so will be keeping the hobby going for ages.
David’s comments stand out to me. For as much as I love your content, military history in general, and the idea of historical wargaming, it’s not the easiest hobby to get into-and even with my strong proclivity for those things, the closest to historical miniatures wargaming that I’ve gotten was Axis & Allies miniatures back in the day and Wings of Glory more recently (thanks again). The pre-painted/assembled and self-contained rules of those games are big selling points for gamers that aren’t already plugged into a local network or club that can share experience and encouragement. I did get into Warhammer fantasy (pre Age of Sigmar) because it had a strong local infrastructure with local game stores having scheduled Warhammer days, etc. and that tends to be a huge advantage that the points-based games have. Anyway, I’m looking forward to your next video!
The Axis and Allies collectable miniatures games were great, if a bit pricy. I had a group where we would play team games , usually two per side controlling anywhere from 100-200 points of units. Had a blast, easy to set up ,play and felt " accurate" enough ,despite it's abstractions. The " War at Sea game" was better for teams though. Gonna have to dig that stuff out again and try to convince my Gaslands fanatic brother-in-law to play it!
i've been watching this channel over the last week or so, and it's really caught my attention. Historicals were something i'd not paid much attention to (i primarly play 40k), but they look intriguing. One thing i've noticed, though, is the attention to historical detail present in a lot of these games. While this might be a plus for those well versed in historicals, it might seem daunting to newcomers or those who play other systems. personally, i've always enjoyed the game more than the lore for a lot of what i've played (though having something apporpriate to the fluff does make the game more fun). Without having played historicals myself, its kind of hard to say if that's maybe one of the things keeping people from picking up something like Black Powder vs, say, 40k or warma/hordes. That said, the ravenfeast game you guys put up recently looked pretty neat, and with the viking age being really in vogue in pop culture right now, it could be a good way to catch the attention of younger gamers.
Glad you found us, Randy! You are spot on with your comment about about historical detail being a possible barrier to new players who may prefer the "open world" of sci-fi or fantasy. There's certainly a segment of the historical gaming population (myself included) who really enjoy this aspect of researching what uniforms and equipment looked like, but others could find that less appealing. We definitely wanted to start with Dark Age skirmish gaming as a free gateway game because it's a lot easier to paint the figures. Earth tones and chain mail and you're about done!
Wargaming is something friends do together. It is hard for interested strangers to find each other, much less get together to game. And given the competitive nature of the hobby, there has to be a certain common understanding and norms established over time to be enjoyable. You had a previous video where you talked about your club and how you accept new members based on how compatible they with the current club members. Making new friends gets harder as you grow older, and I do think that you need to be friends to game enjoyable. All of which makes it hard for this relatively small hobby to grow beyond its established base.
There are several reasons for the decline of miniature wargaming, but the number one reason by far is stubbornness on the part of MANY of the players. More specifically, their unwillingness to branch out and try new things, thus encouraging designers and publishers to keep producing more and more. My personal example of that is my own game Command Combat: Civil War. I worked my ass off on the game and on its promotion. As a result it was nominated for best historical war game in 2011. And yet I couldn't get anyone to look at it. I'd present it at a convention, and players would slow down and ask, "Is that Fire & Fury?" "No. It's..." "Johnny Reb?" "No, it's..." and before I could tell them about it, they've walked away. If it wasn't a game they were already obsessively playing over and over, they weren't even willing to take a look at it. And this was a game that was nominated! Compare that with the board gaming industry. I work with some people who market board games, and whenever we pull out their games, board gamers, and even non-gamers, stop and take a look. And when we explain the game, they listen! Many try it out and some buy it right away. And if it's a game that was nominated for an award? Forget it! Everyone's looking and buying it on the spot. Board gamers then take them around and show them off to their friends. As such, the board gamers themselves expand the hobby. Miniature wargamers tend to be very cliquish. They have their group of friends and they have their group of games, and they're not interested in anything outside of that bubble. The natural result is for the hobby not to grow and to slowly fade away. I've more recently released a sci fi miniatures game, and you know what? Players actually try it out! A lot of older gamers like to stick their noses up to them and say younger people don't care about history, but that's simply not true. It's just that the sci fi and fantasy people are more willing to try new things, and as a result there are more fresh, new fantasy and sci fi games being played on more tables, so more people see it. More exposure = a longer lasting hobby. So if you want historical miniatures to last, get your heads outside of your bubbles and try some new things. And when you see something new you like, help get it exposure.
@@mikegrant8031 I do understand the desire to just stay with one game. I often do the same thing. But what you're saying is backing up my point. Players don't want to invest in another system, (hell, they won't even LOOK at another system, which is a big part of my point,) therefore new systems don't get created, the older systems grow stale or die out, and the hobby dies out. This cycle does not happen in the board gaming industry, which is why it's thriving and historical miniatures is dying.
@@jeffmcarthur5617 why would a new rule system matter, if the other systems are serving the need. If a new system came out and it filled a void then it would sell. If the market is saturated well its saturated.
@@mikegrant8031 There are two answers to your question. One, how do you know there isn't something better if you don't try it out, (like at a convention or from a free sample.) That is the majority of my point. Most historical war gamers won't even look at other systems, let alone try them out. But the bigger point here is that you are continuing to prove what I'm saying. If the current game system you own works for you, great. Go for it. Board gamers will keep trying out new systems and continue to grow their hobby. War gamers will continue to do what you're obviously doing, never trying anything outside what they're already playing, and the hobby will continue to die. Period. That's just what's naturally going to happen. No one here is telling you that you have to get a new game system. But it is a simple fact that the board game industry thrives by players trying and buying new games, and the historical war gaming industry is dying because their players do not.
@@jeffmcarthur5617 buying new games does not equate to hobby growth, its just more money spent not more players in the hobby. Yoir just spreading the same sized player base over a wider number of systems.
One of the opening shots shows the 2020 Cold Wars dealers hall. It looked pretty empty but to be fair Covid was just breaking out and Cold Wars attendance was down more than 50% from normal.
I’m 16 and just recently started with collecting 28mm Napoleonics, I only paint them for collecting and display, because in my area and age group there aren’t many I could war game with. So in my case I completely leave out the rules and terrain etc. that you’d need for wargaming. A big issue is also the price of collecting, painting and basing these figures, so I am never able to buy the figures I want, because I don’t get much pocket money.
Part of my love for wargaming was learning about military history. I would learn about it in school, read a book, and then want to play a game about it. There has been a radical shift in the last 15-20 years in how history is taught, what is included, and what is excluded. Also, we are now dealing with a generation that has little to no contact with a veteran. Less than 1% of the US population is serving in the military. This number continues to dwindle. Why is this important? I would argue that even if you never chose to serve I believe many of us know or have known a combat veteran that significantly impacted our lives. I had an old WWII pilot vet who was my Sunday School teacher who used to tell me all sorts of stories. I thought about flying in the war many times, and he played a large part in my life in wanting to join the Air Force. Joining the military has traditionally been seen as a good thing for serving your nation. Now I would say that society at large sees it as either neutral or a negative thing. How does this impact wargaming? With a neutral or negative view of the military and a lack of emphasis at schools teaching it, you will find little interest in those who want to learn about it and potentially play games about it.
I have a unique view on this because like Curtis I am the next generation of wargamers. I'm in my mid-20s now but a decade ago as a teen, I ran and attended the HMGS conventions, Historicon, Cold Wars, Fall-In especially because they were in Pennsylvania. My problem with gaming has always been finding people to play with. Those conventions gave me a great opportunity to run and play games and I was lucky enough to have parents who would foot the bill to allow me to do that. The second problem with miniatures was cost and labor it took a lot of dedication and money to build an army. I was hooked and I always was working on the next army! needless to say, I had a few armies that were built painted and stored away never to see the light of day (Warhammer, Flames of War). Currently, I've caught the DND bug for two reasons. 1. Much larger player base and a local community for me to play with. 2. The cost of entry is Dice, Paper, and reading material. As the breadwinner of a family of three and growing, I cannot afford miniatures anymore. That makes me sad, there's literally nothing that gets me more excited than seeing a table full of hundreds of expertly painted minis and awesome scenery. That feeling cannot be beaten. I Gawk at the poor quality figures that RPG games often pass off as miniatures! Historical Video Gaming is Strong, Total War, Battlefield, Hell even COD is going to Vietnam in November! Historical and Fantasy Genres are just that, Genres. They play off each other. *Miniature Wargaming needs to be more accessible, that's the #1 solution. That will bring in people who want to play but can't. (I hope this isn't blasphemy) Paper miniatures(or tokens)/Terrain would make wargaming super accessible. Printable PDF with Rules, maps, minis, and terrain: Print, Cut, glue, DONE! I think DND does do a great job at making miniature gaming accessible but its only small scale skirmishes. you could take the same techniques and scale X10,100 and have a real Wargame Battle.* A dream we dream together is reality...
Thank you for this fantastic, well written observation on what barriers exist from the perspective of a younger player. It's going to be hard for big historical battles to match the lower barrier to entry of DnD (paper and a book, as you noted!) but I absolutely think we can take a more thoughtful approach to tailoring historical games for those who may not want to spend $500 and 100 hours painting Napoleon's army at Waterloo. And to be clear, I'm one of those guys who IS WILLING to do that, but imagine how many more players we could tap into if we gave some options to those who don't have that time....
@@LittleWarsTV Thank you for the response, I agree nothing is ever going to beat sitting around a huge table filled with miniatures and terrain and I wish that I had the time and ability to make that happen every day! Running a wargame virtually, like virtual D&D, could be the solution. I use Google Drawings but there are a few virtual Tabletop programs out there. All you need is a Video Chat program with screen sharing and a Game Master to host. The advantage would be you could run wargames for people anywhere in the world for a very low cost. The main hurdle would be to convert or gather a library of digital tokens to represent the minis you'd have on the table. These would be in the form of 2d image files you overlaid on a battle map. After you have the basic assets they could be infinitely copied to fill the table. It's far from perfect but would allow any group to reach out to potential new players, play from home in between weekends, test out new games, etc. DND players do this daily on sites like Roll20. A scaled-up version could be the solution to make the entry point for basic wargaming vanish!
Great question! I think it depends on when you started. I started historical gaming in 1977 at age 10. For the first 4-5 years, I was the only player under ~25 at my local gaming club. Most of the guys were in their late 30s, 40s and 50s. Ten years later, the situation had completely changed. I was part of a large group of historical gamers, most in their late teens and early 20s. I think the reason was that in the 1980s historical wargaming became more affordable and there was a much greater diversity of rules, figures, scales, and periods. As a kid, I didn't have the resources to build a Napoleonics army with 28mm Hincliffe figures. By the time I went to university in the mid-80s, there were lots of affordable options. Now when I go to my friendly local game store I see a lot of young players. True, most are playing fantasy and sci-fi games, but some are playing WWII and modern games. I would prefer to see more historical games, but as long as the hobby is doing well, there's always the potential for new recruits...
I'm 30, Just started doing Napoleonics 2 years ago. I was hesitant at first because I bought mine from a local shop and the guys in there playing black powder were in there 50s or 60s. I didn't think I could fit it anywhere or find anyone my age. I'm still having a hard time in PA finding something. I think it all boils down to time. You see older people gaming because they're usually retired. Whereas me, I love to game and paint, but I also have a house, wife, job, and kids to take care of.
Awesome video, really enjoy the discussion. I suspect wargaming is growing quickly, however historicals as a subset may be stagnant/slow growing. Not surprised manufacturing/publishing has shifted away from the US - I don't think the influence of GW in Nottingham can be understated ;) keep it up!
I am a longtime fan of historical miniature war-gaming with an interest in massed armies, primarily the blackpowder periods. A constant member of HMGS, attending all three of the usual conventions on the East Coast; their closure this year was heart-breaking. The discussions concerning cost of figures, travel and other paraphernalia in the covid era have an impact on everyone. There is an opportunity for simulated figure war-gaming available that some may not be aware of. D and D players are aware of it, regular board game players are, and so is the Lock and Load company. They have moved many of their board games to this environment as free offerings. They are even looking at mini-conventions for the games. This is the Tabletop Simulator available on the Steam network. It is exactly that and people can set up any game there emulating a regular table. There are a variety of 2D and 3D games available created by users but no massed historical war-gaming so far. This could be an excellent environment for HMGS to explore. If 3D figures for historical games are primarily designed in computers anyway, that should be a simple addition and so should rule sets. I would think this is an easy way for companies to create an appeal for the gaming public to want their products in both digital and physical forms. :}
I totally agree with David. Games with unclear information makes it harder to get into. I've been out of 40k for years and now trying to get back into it, but there are now a ton of books and other garbage that I'm not sure I need or what to pick up. While that is healthy, other games are falling into that trap. there is nothing clear as to what you need.
The first thing you need for 40k now is a guarantee from whoever you're going to be playing that they won't be bringing a cheesed out list of min/maxed crap. GW chucked any idea of balance out of the window a few years back and while the GW community will preach about 40k being fun, the company fixing problems and listening to gamers, it's rarely true. My advice would be to get on Facebook and ask one of the groups to outline the best units in the army you're interested in, then just spam those units. Be prepared to need to buy the next uber broken army every year to keep up, otherwise it'll get depressing very quickly.
You chaps are some of the people that pushed me to start a games club in my local area. Can't wait for covid to move on so we can open the doors again. More power to you and your message, keep doing what you're doing.
Looks like I'm in a minority in thinking that Historical Wargames are in decline, I would say the complete opposite. It's never been easier to get into the hobby, there are loads of how to videos on the Utubes, Facebook has groups with thousands of people into specific periods, if ever there was a time to ask someone how to get into a period or scale it is now, just ask ! Money, hearing GW players saying historical games are expensive is hilarious, I've bought GW figures for my lad as he grew up and THEY are not cheap. Try Model Railways if you want expensive Historical Gaming is one of the cheapest hobbies around (unless you are paying for figs to be painted). There are hundreds of historical gaming clubs around the country and where as before you had to search the back of the only hobby magazine to find it (if you were lucky enough to buy the one your local club advertised in). Add to that the growing number of independent games shops in the UK (Common Ground in Stirling, Wargames Emporium in Sheffield etc etc) it's never been easier to search the net and find a club or gaming space. Research is so easy, want the uniform of the French Young Guard Voltigeurs in 1812, type it in your search bar and boom it's there, no ordering a book from a libary or book shop and waiting a month for it. All forms of non digital gaming are on the rise as people who sit in front of a computer all day don't want to sit in front of one to relax. This is the dawn of a Golden Age of Historical. Regards Ken The Yarkshire Gamer We have never been so lucky.
It is hard to imagine that Historical Wargames are in decline. I think the reason why people think that it is, is that Sci fi and fantasy are growing much faster.
I agree. We have a large library at our club built up over many years but it's never used now so we are gradually selling it off to our members and other local gamers.
@@michaelallen2190 its a shame Michael books are no longer the first port of call for info anymore. Ive got a big selection of uniform references but I'm guilty of sitting at my paint table, having a query on a model I'm painting and rather than go upstairs to get a book I look it up on the net. Still love a good book but rarely use them.
"we've never had it so lucky" But we do still love a good whinge ;) . As you say, info-tech gives us the tools to easily research rules and figures, as well as the history they represent. It's just up to us to make the effort to connect and engage. I have a limited view the broader picture but around where I live (small town Australia) there are a few more people playing tabletop historical games (mainly chain of command in 1/72) than there was a year ago (namely myself, my brother and a couple of mates). The only way to grow it is to do it.
Great video! I know that Bolt action is becoming very popular where I am (Singapore) as well as Flames of War. Ive bought the BA miniatures but havent painted them yet, so cant wait to get into that! After that, Ill give FoW a go!
Great video chaps and very thought provoking. From my own experience on the subject, I run a small channel that is primarily focused on historical gaming but is very much Bolt Action content heavy as this is currently my main and favourite gaming rule set. Over the last year or so, it has been really interesting to chat to people through comments or social media that have either switched or expanded into historical gaming from more fantasy/sci-fi centric systems and their reasons, views and thoughts for doing so. Overall I think that these days, people that entered the hobby purely on the fantasy/sci-fi angle seem to be a lot more willing to look at the options that historical gaming has. I remember during my formative hobby years in the early 90's, there seemed to be a reluctance to look outside of the more fantasy driven gaming systems.
Hi Gregg It's interesting that people are framing some sort of battle between video games and wargames. Anecdotally, I have found that playing games like Post Scriptum, Hell Let Loose, Rising Storm 2, etc has been a great way of including my friends in wargaming. For instance, I plat an online ww2 shooter with my friend during the week after work, and then on the weekend can con them into a wargame by framing it as a different view of the FPS we play. It's also great for understanding why some rules are the way they are. If I'm shooting a K98 on a video game for a couple of hours a week I can grasp the nature of shooting rules for ww2 Germans.
My opinion is that there's two elements missing here - the first one is that people are still focused on the Fantasy/Sci-Fi to Historicals Pipeline. That's never gonna work. Not anymore, anyway. People who play Warhammer are too focused on Warhammer. What is gonna work and is worth noting is that a significant amount is making a Videogame to Historicals jump, and they're bypassing a lot of the expected entry games. A game like Blucher is more likely to be played by college students than, say, Bolt Action.
This is a compelling argument. There has always been heavy focus on "converting" fantasy/sci fi players to try historicals and you may be right that the video game pipeline is a larger funnel to pursue.
@@LittleWarsTV A big part of it is also the amount of money spent and dedicated to Fantasy and Sci-Fi curves way higher than those spent on videogames. Someone who's playing, say, Ultimate General: Civil War or Hearts of Iron might spend a significant amount of time with it, but not money. It's way easier to convince someone like that to spend more money on something else than someone who's already spent hundreds on Warhammer 40k or Warmachine. This is also coming from my own current experience as a college student trying to start a wargaming club here in Cincinnati, OH - people who played Warhammer were overwhelmingly insular and didn't even want the terrain; the people who delved into historicals had no experience with miniature wargaming beforehand, they just saw it and went "cool" because I had actual terrain, for starters, even if it wasn't the most gorgeous terrain ever, and delved right in, because they had experience with Total War and Paradox games and anything in that same sort of genre. Hell, it's my own story (I'm 20 now), I skipped the entire genre of Sci-Fi/Fantasy and headed straight into Historicals at 16 and I do think a significant reason for it is, well, I had historical gaming experience beforehand, maybe not historical tabletop wargaming experience (it'd be two more years until that happened, I began playing hex and chit), but certainly historical gaming experience, and I was more interested on the historical side of things. The one person I agree the most with here is, oddly, Sam Mustafa (all hail!), who has an absurdly excellent point that the argument for the genre dying isn't an incoming amount of people, but a declining number of people producing minis and rulesets (in the US, anyhow). Especially minis, I have been waiting for Bacchus to reopen to order some 6mm Napoleonic French to provide an army to fight against my 6mm Napoleonic Russians, so that I can have it at ready when the Board Game Club opens here again.
@@LittleWarsTV the flipside to the argument is that tabletop fantasy gaming is still an active multifaceted hobby (assembling and painting miniatures and terrain etc) whilst electronic gaming is essentially passive consumption (buy, plug in and play). This generally means a much easier bridge for tabletop model gamers who are already into gluing their fingers together, but just a bit over the GW approach (strictly canonical with endless rules updates and codex rehashes) than for screen junkies who don't even own a small paintbrush. People who like to play with painted figures on simulated terrain are, after all, the desired demographic. The appeal of slickly marketed non-historical games to the younguns is not something that can be easily overturned, but I think the best option is that as we pursue our hobby, we keep a visibly approachable profile so, when fantasy gamer eyes start wandering, we can offer an alternative that is both cheaper and richer.
I don't think it's gonna really die out, but younger people who would have been into wargaming 20 or 30 years ago, are playing historical video games with each other instead. Like the game War of Rights, which is essentially civil war reenactment for young people.
Having tried to start historical in a Rural Community: I can totally see why it's a much older audience. And probably mostly more Urban. I've had a really hard time getting access to paints, minis, just generally materials. And with my first year of college starting I'm not going to have the time or money to make any significant gains on setting up new games. Older people have a lot more free time and expendable income. I think that for younger people to get it the bar for entry is going to have to be significantly lower. A big boxed kit "starter army" and the paints for it included would have certainly helped me, and I suspect others as well.
The high cost is clearly a barrier for many players--especially younger players, but also some older players who just don't have a few hundred extra dollars to drop on toys. In Part 2 next week we'll talk about at least one possible solution.
Historical war-gaming is something I’ve only tried once and found i was more interested in reading about the history (I played a game set during the crusades) than actually playing. For me personally it lacked the creativity I get to indulge via a sci fi/fantasy war game. The person I played was really into the accuracy of the way he painted his minis while I just wanted to paint it how I wanted. Did have fun building the terrain (now used in my fantasy games)
Great return,guys ! Am a game designer and all of your videos are just so excellent ! Thanks for your engagement in our little universe and passion ! Greeting from france
Great piece to watch guys. I have mentioned this before. I worked in the wargames industry for nearly 40 years, i am now retired. The industry has been dying for some time now. I know this as i lived it. It was for me at its most vibrant during the 1980's up to the end of the 1990's since then it has slowly died. You would only have to look at the traders we have lost, the shops that have closed down, and the convention circuit, a mere shadow of what it used to be. This of course is in the UK, and a funny thing to see your talking head mentioning the USA as the heart of wargaming, in the UK we consider the UK as the heart of wargaming, each to their own no doubt.
I've played a little bit of every miniatures games, including Warhammer/40k, Warmachine, pre-painted Star Wars games, etc. Historicals were always intriguing but hard to find, and the hobby aspects are a lot less interesting - the idea of painting 200 olive drab dudes makes me go a little cross-eyed. What got me interested in taking up the historicals challenge was the opportunity to connect with my kids, who are suddenly homeschooling. It's an art project and a history lesson while still being fun. I'm just scratching the surface of what I can teach my kids through the hobby, but the homeschooling audience would be a good one to consider.
Historical war gaming has always been a middle aged guy hobby but don’t worry there are new middle aged guys coming along all the time. Lol. To be serious though If there were some hard stats that we could reference I doubt that we’d find that the numbers of historical miniature gamers in the world at any given time changes all that much. I think that the bearded fedora wearing guy you interviewed has it right. Great video as usual!
Totally disagree. I started in 6th or 7th grade with Panzer Blitz. My HS had a historical games club. What has happened is the hobby stopped supporting the younger players and other things took them away.
I'm 38 and got into the wargaming hobby when I was 12. So I've been at it for 26 years now. That said, I've switched over to 2mm because they're faster to paint up, and to my mind they can give a more interesting experience. The buy in as regards time and money is much smaller with micro-scales, which makes it easier for people to get into. Younger people have less space and time to play these games than they used to, and there's a lot of competition from other games and a more demanding work culture than what existed, say, twenty years ago. That said, it's heartening to see so many people younger than myself in the comments who are also in the hobby. Anyone in California???
Too far to get together (Ohio). 2mm is crazy small. But I can see it working. I imagine painting is simple because you can't paint eyeballs, etc, anyway. And you could stage Barbarossa!
Like so many discussions, this video and the interviewees really focus on miniature war gaming as a business, not as a hobby. They judge it on sales, on who can make it a career. Stamp collecting is still a hobby, even though people don't make a living off the hobby. The hobby will remain, but as a business? Probably not forever.
As a young wargamer who has just started with historics (coming from warhammer) I have to say the scariest thought getting in to it is the inconsistency, nobody plays the same scale for example ACW. People play 3mm, 6mm, 10mm, 12mm, 13.5mm, 15mm and 28mm among other scales, along with the fact that no one uses the same rule set with their being 3 to 4 rule sets for every scale. I also ran into the problem of finding opponents. I come from a 70,000 person town with 2 mtg/miniature gaming stores. Out of all these people we ran a survey in our town over a year with questions online and at the stores and the only historical are 2 people who play bolt action. I play 10mm Napolonics and 13.5mm ACW so this was very upsetting as the survey being readily available for a year means any active wargamer would participate. I guess I should just stick with warhammer which had over 50 people say they played.
I think sadly yes, but a big reason for that in the USA at least is the game store's dominance as far as determining what gets played. It's incredibly rare to find a game store that supports historical gaming except maybe Bolt Action and Flames of War; everything else is the domain of the "grognards" that meet in someone's basement or clubhouse and since in the US at least most people I've seen only play what they can buy at their local game store that means they often never know or care about a lot of the smaller esoteric games because they can't easily go and buy products for it. Even now a lot of the rules you have to go hunting around On Military Matters or similar sites to find them. And then there are all the different miniature manufacturers (most of which are in the UK) so it's just choice on top of choice on top of choice without any real guidance. On that note, another issue is the sheer volume of rules and figures. If you play something mainstream like Warhammer or Flames of War or Warmahordes there's one set of rules, but with historicals, there are dozens if not hundreds of rules for periods, each with its own take on the period based on what the author thinks the period would be like and that's incredibly overwhelming for someone especially when you factor in that different groups play different rules so even if you find a group that plays a set of rules, another group may play something entirely different and you have to essentially start from scratch. The lack of standards is a big issue in the current day because people are so used to having a standard game that they can play against a variety of opponents, and you don't find that in historical gaming.
From the other side - the developer and publisher side: game stores are killing you. There is a large distribution network in the US, with places like Alliance more-or-less selling gaming to the shops. When a new Warhammer game comes out, GW calls the stockists. When a new Warlord or Fantasy Flight game comes out, Alliance rings up the stores. But Alliance doesn't want to stock 200 different little indy games - it's more profitable to just have a huge stock of Warlord and then unload it like clockwork. So they don't bother talking about the new ACW title that just released to rave reviews. They don't promote those indy games like a distributor should. And some stores won't stock anything that DOESN'T come through their distributor, because they don't want to be seen "competing with" the distributor. There's a store near me that goes through Alliance, but can never get stock for the game that I want to play. Because Alliance hasn't restocked the game. The store could probably get a better deal directly from the publisher, and lord knows that the publisher would love to sell it to them - but they wont. So I can't get the game off the ground there.
Yep. I honestly despise the stranglehold the game store has in the US. I've seen too many games never get any traction at all because stores can't/won't stock it and therefore people don't want to know it even exists. Hell, I've seen people get openly hostile about suggesting a game that the store can't stock, calling it "stealing" from the store since you aren't buying everything there. I envy how the UK is and some parts of the US where there are actual, honest-to-god gaming clubs that aren't bound to a game store providing space and "letting" them play games there. Otherwise, you're letting someone else dictate what you can and can't play so they have too much control.
FoW and Bolt Action (Black Powder and Hail Caesar, too) are attempts to GW-ize historical games. The companies provide bundles of stuff that help lower the research-related barriers to entry. They are more costly, often, than pure historical games and do take some liberties with how a force might have historically behaved but they also provide a basis for a community to grow with a common ground. Without community (even if your community is just one other gaming buddy who will play this stuff), there's only solo play.
Not to blow sugar up the backsides of the crew at Little Wars, but you guys are exactly what the hobby needs. Engaging, funny and (dare I say it) relatively youthful. In Australia, the typical wargamer ( especially 'historical' ) would be a sullen doctor in his 60's who would probably recoil in pain from any curious youngster who wanted to learn the ropes.
As a greying historical miniatures gamer. My experience over the year includes going to Pacificon for the first time as a know nothing 14 year old in 1978. I had a blast. I was mainly there for TSR's first west coast DnD tournament my friend was DMing for it. While not playing DnD I would wander thru the historical miniature battle hall at the Dunfey Hotel in San Mateo. I found then as I do today that most of the grey beards were very welcoming of questions and would even ask if I wanted to learn to play. That long weekend I played Napoleanics, Franco/Prussian war. Zulu, Khartoum, Micro Armor, WWI planes. I was already into history of war and had spi and ah games I had bought with my own money. Thru the years I have played with all ages and made it a point to always welcome questions from young people and invite them to join. Because you should pay it forward. When Flames of War was moving from 1st Edition to 2nd Edition rules I volunteered to work as a free lance Editor/Proofreader and I am credited on the second edition rule book and many of the scenario books for that rule set. At that time I was playing Flames of War regularly at 2 different game stores. That is the crux of the matter. Exposure at a regular time at a place easy to find. Twice a week at two different game stores about 30 miles apart at the same time every week from open till closing time. We grew a handful of people playing to well over 50 regulars at both stores from all ages. The thing was we were inclusive, age, sex etc did not matter. We were helpful, showing people they could play with minimal investment, helping them learn the hobby and the art of painting miniatures and making cheap and nice terrain. So for 4 years I was helping to grow the hobby. But when I was to old and broken to continue regular play time the hobby pretty much started to die off. Why? Because nobody was being consistent. Sure they were still playing but at odd times and at home or away from the game stores. Dedication is hard to come by for people not getting paid to play. I have been physically unable to play tabletop miniatures because of a spinal injury, just cannot lean over a table anymore. The main problem is schools are not teaching history like it used to be taught. Wars are being taught as shameful no matter what side you were on. This is leading to the shaming of kids who are interested in history and war. But that is my opinion. I lost 5 of my 7 uncles in World War 2, My father served in WW2, Korea and Viet Nam. My family on one side were Wild Geese, kicked out of Ireland because they would not bend the knee to Protestant England and worked as Catholic Mercenaries for Spain and France in the 1600's. They came to America in 1638 and from that time onward have every generation been in the local, county, state, colonial or American armies since. Every single generation in America since the mid 1600's to this day. I served, my daughter served. Three of my siblings served. So generationally we come to a problem. Kids are now separated from War and are taught inappropriately about war in general at the schools here in America. The complete rewriting of history at all levels of schooling is disgraceful and for me has led to the loss of historical miniature tabletop gaming, plus the big elephant in the room PC gaming has really thrown miniatures for a loop. Cost alone has made it unbearable. Should I spend $1000 for an army or get a $60 pc game? Oh its on sale on steam for $20. Yeah I know where my money goes. So lots of reasons for the decline. Technology, social stressors, prohibitive costs and of course the time it takes to travel to, setup and then play is quite long. And finding a place to play is not easy either. Chris
Historical wargaming is actually growing in the UK I read in Wargames Illustrated that Warlords sales have skyrocketed during lockdown I think they said they had a 300% increase in sales.
One thing we have done that helps against cost, COVID, and distance is playing ‘tabletop’ games online/computer. We use tabletop simulator on Steam and can still play our favorites (including Altar of Freedom!). It takes away the physical build and interaction of the traditional hobby, but that’s replaced by digital creating - and at nearly zero cost (apart from time and assuming you have a computer and internet). You can check out what it’s like with the few videos we have posted.
About 20 years ago one of the Historicon cons was held in MD. Naturally Games Workshop showed up in force. The outcry from the "Historical" gamers was insane. (self disclosure I play GW & historical). I hear everything from the kids are not serious gamers, 40K is not a "Real" wargame, my games are not kid friendly. The outrage went on and on. I spoke to several board members about this and pointed out the age issue way back then. My point was if we don't find a way to expose the younger gamers the hobby will die out. Almost to a person the response was the same: "These kids are not serious gamers and not real history buffs like us." What no one would say: "GW came in here and kicked our asses with games, displays and support." GW brought in like 20 tables and people to run and demo every game. And they really made Historical manufactures look 2nd rate. Since then GW has introduced more games that appeal to older players while strengthening its younger base. Final thoughts: I live in Austin TX. There is virtually no historical gaming left here. We are down to a handfull of cons between Dallas Austin and San Antonio. When you hit the dear halls people are just dumping there FoW stuff and other historicals. We had a big chance 20 years ago to start bringing in young players and we didn't. Now there is now way to compete against video games and GW is a leader in tat area too.
Sadly, it is dependent on region/area where any table top war game is being played. But historical games have a hard time in general competing with the more visually entertaining games that GW and others put out.
I see fewer people interested in competitive gaming, but then I see fewer people, period. I agree with the poster who noted that its a deep dive into historical gaming of all types. It is difficult to get all the things, in hand all at once to both provide a game and matchups and rules. Triangulating all that is the hardest part. Local groups that bring all sides to the table have the best result.
If anything our local club is seeing an influx of WW2 players. A lot of folks have moved from games like 40k using Bolt Action as a gateway and then into the more historical WW2 games beyond that. Certainly in the UK historical gaming, especially WW2 is very popular.
Glad to see you guys are back. Interesting to see you guys are masking up to get rid of this pandemic. I do like wargaming via board games or minatures.
Here in Ireland the move from Historical to Fantasy changed everything. The main reason is the rules for Historical wargaming are more demanding than Fantasy if you just want to 'play'. Boxes with everything in them you need to get going, along with satisfying accessible for everyone rules would do wonders.
I have painted, built, converted, read and played war games and RPG for the last 40 years and have no intention of stopping. Keep up the good work as really enjoying the feed. Could you please tell me where I can get my hands on those Perspex octagons used in the Battle of Trafalgar game?
What a gamer needs is a lot of space: for the game table, library. and a workshop. Most young ppl live in an apartment the size of a portapottie. There is the basic fact that a miniature while nice to look at has less information than a cardboard counter. Firepower, range, movement etc are printed on the chip. A miniature requires the player to memorize all these features.
I've been gaming for close to 60 years, exclusively BOARDGAMING. I'm not surprised that MINIATURES gaming is sliding downhill. I, myself, made several attempts at miniatures, and frankly found the entire exercise to be a pain in the ass (your mileage may vary). To play with miniatures, you need to buy a variety of miniatures, depending on what you are simulating, which means a never-ending increase in spending. At the club I was a member at, one member had an entire wall filled with his collection of WWII infantry, tanks, artillery, other vehicles, WWI infantry, over 1000 WWII ships of US/British/Japanese/Italian/etc. nationality. And then there was the Napoleonic and Fantasy stuff. If you don't enjoy painting miniatures, or simply suck at it, there's the additional expense of paying someone to do it for you. Contrast this with boardgaming, which pretty much gives you everything you need IN THE BOX. You may end up purchasing additional "modules" for a certain boardgame, but once you open the box and read the rules, you're all set. The BOARDGAMING wing of the hobby is certainly very healthy. Just look at all the games on the shelves behind the UA-camrs who vlog game reviews.
I'm 21, and I've been interested in historicals for a while now. For me, the biggest barrier to entry is being able to get everything in one--it's nice to buy a box with all the guys I need, and be able to take it off my shelf whenever I wanna play a game. Between that and cost, Warlord Games is kind of the only major historical wargaming company on my radar.
I am 31, and I got into historical wargamming 5 years ago. And in my humble opinion it was the lack of exposure to companies that made historic figures what stopped me doing this earlier. When I played warhammer fantasy I liked dwarfs, and I really didn't like the magic stuff, that is why I chose them. I liked the vibe of infantry soldiers, movement and tactics and also I always liked the dwarfs from Lord Of The Rings. But I prefer history over fantasy ans sci-fi. When I saw in warhammer that things got more arcady I lost any interest left and I was alredy doing historic. I do medieval a lot. I have dark ages, feudal age and late medieval. But I don't have any fellow gammer that plays historic in my town...So, I am more into painting them and such. Maybe some day I convince some lost soul to join the dark side of gamming.
I’m 50! I used to play table top historicals in the late 90’s. In Montreal there used to be a great hobby association called Montreal Wargamers. Today I want to go back to play tabletop battles, only problem, cost of miniatures and find players to play and the time to play and paint.
Teaching history is changing in schools and colleges, if gaming can be incorporated to help explain battles it will engender interest. We have seen an increase in interest in esoteric historical periods
I’m 17 and I’ve only begun to get into Wargaming but it’s historical all the way for me.
1/72 Late Roman Ancients is my thing, and I’ve somehow managed to convince five of my friends to join me in a campaign that I’m organising.
So I for one refuse to let historical wargaming go quietly into the night!
You can go back to the very roots of the game with ancient campaigns. Try the ideas of Tony Bath, who started the Society of Ancients. If you can get access to Amazon Kindle editions, its on there, very cheap, "Tony Bath's Ancient Wargaming" Very old, but some good ideas.
Same. I'm 16 just getting into late medieval shit using Lord of the Rings sbg rules.
That's fantastic, Curtis! Great job recruiting some friends into a Roman campaign!
Little Wars TV When I started out you were probably the first wargaming channel that I found which gave good advice, so thank you so much, you helped me a lot!
Good for you Curtis, keep the hobby going. Wargaming is one of the few areas in life that has not gone PC or attempts to rewrite History. Are you Gaming in metals or plastic? Hat Co. has a great diversity of figs in your area of interest in plastic HO. All the best ~RS
I'm 16 and have been into historical wargames since I was 10. I'm a huge history buff and love acting out battles in the miniature. However the hardest part is finding people to play
Yeah that is the tough part. I’m 27 my best advice is if you can’t find any friends to play or a local businesses with other players try to get a girlfriend and make her play haha. Good luck to you dude! Love to see ppl interested in history.
In the 1970s we were going to die because of D&D, in the 1980s we were going to die because of Warhammer, in the 1990s we were going to die because of Magic the Gathering. Wargaming will continue, but it will change.
Elliott James - You missed out computer gaming in the 1980s. It’s what stole the minds of both my brothers, and made me have to go out and search for a wargames club for opponents. Sadly, neither of them ever returned to figure gaming of any kind.
They are all on a continuum instead of opposed.
Good job at using a lot of words to say nothing...
I think people that proclaim the doom of Wargaming fail to realise who created it, old, affluent prussian generals and nobles. These younger things, DnD, Warhammer, and Magic are more oriented towards wider and younger audiences. They might eat up a bit of Historical Wargaming's market share, but not kill it.
Wargaming is strong in Britain, that's where the best Wargames clubs and shows are.
thats a relief! I've been very eager to get into historical wargaming :)
Also strong in Australia. With quite a few young players last time I looked (although generally not as young as the Games Workshop crowd).
I would like to state, I am 25. I wrote and still developing my own wargame in WWII. I host 4 events a year at my local library. I have on average 15-20 players all my friends and friends of friends. I started this game when I was in High School at age 18. I have been tinkering with my ruleset for a long time now and finally have a friend who is a graphic designer. We will be printing it shortly. Have no fear it is growing.
Great work, Adam! Good luck on this project.
That's quite impressive! Well done!
I’m 19 and have been interested in historical wargaming since I was probably 14. Currently i run a small group of 5-6 guys and girls my age and we play several eras! Napoleonic, War of the Roses and WWII. I wish more people my age played.
jeremy bailey I‘m Sixteen and Play WWII
I started when I was about 14, with a home-made battleground, and I think matchbox tanks and artillery, and some home-cast lead soldiers, representing Germany v Russia at Stalingrad. That was thought-provoking.
Irregular Miniatures do Battle Sets (6, 15, 25 & 42mm). £25-160
sumerandaccad thanks! Good to know, I’ve used irregular before for their 6mms but I tend to prefer most Baccus sculpts over irregular
I’m 19 and have been wargaming since I was 14 and have only ever played historical as I’m totally history crazed! Their are so many interesting aspects of history that I struggle to even imagine how people could find history boring.
Agreed, Daring Dare! There are so many fascinating stories and characters to explore. We just need to find ways to help more people realize how much fun it can be to explore those real-life events.
Little Wars TV perhaps we can attract people to historical wargaming by showing how smart and intellectual a person looks when quoting and debating history compared to fantasy and science fiction!
Same there are so many things in history but people say that it is boring simply because they think that history has a lot to read but they dont understand reading and putting it into practical is different. They just dont even want to hear or play.
@@daringdare5078 I dunno, 'Do or Do not, there is no try' has often been a quote of the day, well that or 'We need a bigger boat'
@@daringdare5078 The world seems to be going away from reading. I for one love reading and have since I was a kid. That's is truly how I became interested in history.
I feel like a lot of these kinds of discussions don't touch on one of the key parts of the hobby - ongoing costs/practicalities. Historicals aren't cheap to start, often require quite a bit of prior knowledge or research, and have more subtle expenses such as likely travelling further for a game than you'd have to if you played something GW. One of those things on its own would make it a challenge to someone under the age of 25, never mind all of them at once.
If I buy a box of Warhammer 40k orks, I know I'll be able to find people to play against. But if I buy a box of 10mm Sengoku Jidai Takeda cavalry... will I ever get to use them? It's a lot harder, that's for sure. Getting into historical wargaming in your own is almost impossible - you need a club, and then you need to adjust your collection and army to what's already in that club. Playing your 10mm samurais against 28mm Wehrmacht isn't really an option.
1/72 plastic. $9.99-14.99 typically for 48 figures. Free rules on line. It doesn't have to be expensive.
@@frankverdino477 add glue, paint, basing material, storage, game accessories - that's assuming having people who will play your rules and also have 1/72 minis - and we still have to factor in research and other expenses.
@@frankverdino477 Truedat
As well as being comparatively cheap, here in Australia 1/72 figures are also usually the only other wargaming models available in general toy and hobby shops (apart from space ork stuff) as they have long been a popular scale for historical modellers, meaning there is a vast range of figures and vehicles.
The range of periods available has also expanded greatly over recent years.
As a bonus, they are scale compatable with the broad hobby of HO railways, meaning the terrain options are huge.
I got back into WWII wargaming after a hiatus (GW burnout) and have been able to affordably acquire rules (Chain of command) and figures enough for several basic factions (Germans, English and French) , meaning that I have been able to entry sponsor my brother and a couple of friends, who are now enthusiastic enough that they are beginning to collect their own stuff.
All this for around the cost of one small 40k army.
I think Historicals are quite cheap to buy, especially when compared to Games Workshop. £35 for 10 Space Marine Primaris Intercessors, compared to £29.50 for 30 WWII Infantry from Warlord Games, or £20 for a Perry Miniatures box containing anywhere between 36 and 44 infantry.
I want a historical miniatures wargame with all the needed parts, pieces and terrain in one BIG BOX and I am prepared to pay for it.
Perry makes one for the American civil war I believe
If you're looking for that the Travel Battle from Perry miniatures is what you're looking for. It has a complete set of rules, all the figures you need (they are 6mm napoleonic-ish figures), a hard-plastic board with terrain features such as villages, forests and fields and some dice. The assembling process is very fast and easy (if you want you can paint the whole board and figures but that is not really necessary) and the rules are pretty much easy to learn. The game was officially made for travelling gamers who want to play something while they're not home or at their gaming club but it can work as a standalone wargame and can provide lots of fun, plus it's a great entry to the hobby. Here is the link if you want to check it out www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?products_id=3637
bolt action or flames of war
How much?
The Bolt Action starter sets are good for that. Not too pricey either.
"Blood & Plunder", "Oak & Iron" and "Blood and Valor" are produced by the american company Firelock Games and are quite popular historical wargames. Hence there are still american produced wargames.
Love Firelock!
Blood and Plunder is the ONLY wargame I play. It has a relatively young crowd and seems to be growing in popularity. I really feel like this video was poorly researched to have no reference to Firelock Games.
I have been playing since Don Featherstone and Charles Grant broke on the scene in the 1960's. I started the wargames club at my university. The students' union of the time were very suspicious that I was seeking to set up some right-wing militarist thing and had to be placated. They knew nothing of what a hobby wargame was. In those days it was Airfix figures, converted, where necessary, for most. Since then the hobby has just exploded in terms of what is out there - stuff we never dreamed of. Naval at all scales, fantasy wargaming with Warhammer etc. 15mm brought the price of figures down for a while, then they started to climb. But the latest versions of things like Black Powder and Bolt Action with low-density games and cheaper plastic figures have made it more affordable and practical again. You can play them on a table set up in the average living room quite easily. The other thing that happened was the growth of the Avalon Hill - style boardgame which had also started in the '60s. That is now a massive sector on its own. And the dreaded computer game, there is a huge cross-over potential from the wargames people find there into physical figures. There may be sections of the hobby that might seem "grey", as I am now, but I think that wargaming in general is alive and kicking.
Ditto with me exactly.
A quick hurrah for Messrs Featherstone and Grant. Plus Tunstill, Scruby etc etc. I am in my 8th decade and still play solo games using the 'old' rules in deepest darkest rural Wales.
Started in the early 70s with Airfix plastics. Played last night teaching 2 younger players the ropes of "Clash of Spears" a new skirmish ancients game. It's a different hobby now and much more inclusive. Nearly everyone I know play many types of game and are happy to cross over from historical games to other formats.
And Hinton Hunt figures: it is 50 years since I got my first figures and Napoleonic Austrian uhlans.
I agree ...when I was getting properly started during the Featherstone Era the choice and quality of figures was simply not there, whereas now you can buy virtually anything you can think of and in a profusion of different scales. Meanwhile DBA, in my opinion the most important rules set ever (while by no means perfect) is in its third edition after 30 years and offers an easy and low-cost intro to all sorts of different periods and armies ...but for many younger people the flashy allure of super-expensive spacemen, wizards and whatnot is impossible to resist. The best of them will eventually become historical gamers.
I started in the 1960's with home brew rules, Airfix figures and Roco Minitanks (accurate scale be d*mned!). Back then our gaming was driven as much by the modeling as the playing, and we had all the time in the world (after school) to get it done. Much older, with many more years behind than ahead, I now chose games like Wings of Glory/Sails of Glory that have prepainted components instead of spending hours prepping playing pieces. I wonder if many potential, younger players feel the same?
Rocco mini tanks were so cool.
It would probably grow a lot faster if the miniatures, terrain, and rulebooks were more easily accessible.
Funny thing is, figures, rules and terrain, and info about how to acquire them, is in many ways more available now than ever before, mostly because of that whole internet thingy.
As an example, there are countless tutorials on yewchoob about cheap ways to make your own terrain, as well as many 'battle reports' that allow you to observe different rule mechanics in action in order to help decide which best suits your tastes.
In the end though, the fastest way to grow the hobby is to lead by example and actively participate in it.
@@corvusboreus2072 most people would rather just get something convenient like axis and allies or risk. Miniature war gaming you gotta find a book, learn all the rules, find miniatures that are pre painted, get the right terrain, it's all a pretty big hassle for most people that just wanna open a box and play on occasion.
@@rc59191 then the question becomes 'how do we make tabletop historical wargaming accessible for people who don' t want to bother collecting and painting figures and terrain, or even take the time to read rules? '
My only practical answer would be swallow the extra time, effort and money it takes to spoon feed them in the hope that a deeper genuine interest develops.
This is precisely what I have done with my brother and a couple of old friends where I have created terrain (mostly scratch built) and assembled/based/painted figures enough for several forces (1/72 plastics) and bought a ruleset (chain of command) that I can walk them through.
It has worked insofar as not only do I have people to play with/against who are gradually becoming intuitively familiar with the basic rules, but have started expressing serious interest in collecting their own forces.
Mind you, these were all longtime personal friends with keen to moderate interest in military history, so the initial investment seemed worthwhile.
As for the 'huddled masses yearning to be free', all I can offer by way of suggestion is, when covid permits, to take the trouble to set up visually appealing demonstration games at wider public events (comic conventions, open days etc) and answer all enquiries in a genuinely welcoming fashion.
I can imagine a firm producing a ‘battle in a box’. Prepainted and pre-based figures and AFVs, stylised terrain, and a playing mat. Rules and all dice and counters included. It would have to be no bigger than, say 12mm scale. But even if made and packaged in China it’s might be difficult to get the price down to an acceptable level. And a mass market probably wouldn’t tolerate anything as complex even as Bolt Action, which is a far from satisfactory rule set if you know anything about warfare.
They are. Attend any wargames show (obviously not happening now due to Covid) and there is tons of stuff on offer.
I’m one of the only 16 yo I’ve ever known who plays historicals. I feel like the older generations are definitely the people really keeping the historical side of the miniature hobby alive.
Everyone forgets us younger folk are poorer, we didn't grow up in the 50s where you got a c-suite job with a high school diploma and paid off your house on minimum wage in 10-20 years. We can barely afford food, let alone having to spend 20 dollars for one unit for a game that's likely diffficult to actually play in terms of players, distance, actually having the same minis, etc. it's more convenient to spend 400 dollars on a cheap pc or the a majour console that I will guaranteed get years usage out of, then spend the same price in minis, paints, bases, cases, transportation etc for a game I might get to play once a year. Star Wars legion is the only thing that comes close to a somewhat popular game at a budget it even then that's a hefty price tag for someone living paycheck to paycheck. I won't even get in to the ridiculousness that is prices for age of sigmar minis.
There is some pre-painted WW1 & WW2 Aircombat games like Wings of Glory and its pretty cheap to get into
Wages cut cut in half in the 70's and never really recovered. My parents tried to tell me once that they only made 5 bucks an hour tipped minimum wage, which is worth 150% of the 11.10 regular minimum now.
I think they could afford to make it a lot cheaper though if we got some good machinists and roboticists in on the manufacturing end. GW pays around 10k for an injection die, most of my friends in the industry they could do 2k easily.
I haven't bought a new Gw miniature in about 20 years. I exclusively buy used models or alternate companies, which tend to be just as expensive. I am a bit spoiled being near a major city of millions, so the stores which sell used Gw products have a great variety and have great prices.
The idea that you need 100% GW models to play still holds firm with many, but the odds that you'll be playing in an official sponsored GW Tournament is very low and I'm pretty sure most stores have almost no policy on enforcing it for their local groups. The D&D miniature line has some great options for various units if you are a bit creative.
Chris Lundgren is wings of glory even in print anymore? The companies official site doesn't have them for sale, third party games sellers tend to have like 2 planes each, and amazon has variety but low stock. I looked into it after watching these guys play it only to find the publisher doesn't even sell them anymore and everywhere I looked was either low variety or low stock.
@@deogthepoeg7872 Yes it is still being made it is still available there is also dedicated Facebook groups for it as well. The Guild House in Bellflower has it in stock as well as the War House in Long Beach Ca. facebook.com/groups/FansOfWOG/ this group can help you
Most people in the hobby don,t start historical till the thirtysomething. Start in sci-fi fantasy.
Sounds like me lol just jealous of all those kids who grew up with warhammer or other war games.
I wanted to get into the Historical wargaming. Bought lots of 1/72 scale Napoleonic and Roman era models because they were cheap and I could quickly build an army of them.
Why did I stop?
1) there were only 5 guys in my country that played Napoleonic era and insanely they went with 28mm scale. So in order to play with them I'd have to basically spend more to get the army I wanted in the right scale (if its not any of the major nations of the Napoleonic Wars your essentially screwed for trying to keep costs down)
2) none of my friend wanted anything to do with historical wargaming. Its has a very high bar in both cost and research to get into. Added to this, whats exciting about fighting line battles when you could be playing a sci-fi game with super powerful weapons with weird rules, or fantasy games where magic can cause untold devastation.
There is little scope for imagination with historical wargames. Hell, the historical purists in the hobby really dislike the idea of just playing pick up games or points costs. To them, you sit and do research, paint your models as historically as you can research and then research and replay famous battles.
Thats far too much work to ask new people to get on board with, yet most of the old guard in the community do not accept much else, and most rule sets dont give you the option for easy pick up games as they dont come with points costs or special rules for the different nations.
Right now, the only thing i can do with my historical miniatures is to use them in games of Warhammer 40k or other such games because im more likely to be able to arrange a game of that than anything historical.
The hobby as a whole isn't dying, but its not growing as well as it should. A trickle is not sustainable.
OK a couple of ideas, you can use counters for units, no figures needed. Most rules have points values for shopping list armies because (in the UK) thats what most games are, a 2 hour game at the local club to an agreed points value. As for not having super weapons, thats the point, you are suppose to out think your opponent, not beat them with super weapons. Use the terrain to your advantage, gain the tactical edge (usually by beating your opponent a bit at a time) and if a game is historical, you have the lessons of history to tell you how to do it.
@@zedeyejoe
Just countering the points
1) the whole point of a miniatures bases table top game is to play with the miniatures. Using counters just defeats the purpose and if your in a game store/club playing the game your not going to gain anyone looking over to admire the quality of the minitures...because there aren't any to look at. I've gotten into games by just looking at the miniatures on offer, watching the game being played amd by the next week I have something I can use to play a small first game. Using counters just doesn't do that.
2) most rules I've seen and been recommended do not come with points costs. Black Powder has some supplements with points values, but the games designer has stated many times he doesnt like the idea, and therefore the points used just arent balanced.
3) my point about super weapons was that the lack of them doesn't make for an exciting setting. Most people aren't at all bothered about history, and especially military history and so sci-fi and fantasy settings attract them more. Its hard to get people excited to play a historical based game when there is nothing to really draw them in except brightly coloured uniforms. How you are supposed to play the games using historical formations and stratagems when there are other games that allow them to "slaughter xeno scum" with rocket propelled machine guns, or bolts of eldritch lightning. There really isn't any competition when put into those terms.
Great video! While there is graying within the hobby, I also see many green shoots. My 13 YO loves gaming WWII with me, and he has become a real history buff. A few weeks ago, he had a friend over who saw some of our 15mm models, then the two of them proceeded to play a game of Flames of War! The more we can all encourage this, the more our hobby will thrive...
Skirmish is in ascendency. People want to get into playing fast. So businesses selling historical miniatures for games that require huge figure counts will of course say the industry is dying. GW sees this; Kill Team, Warcry etc are low figure count, fast skirmish games that "lead in" to the bigger games. Some people introduced into gaming via this route expand beyond it, into other genres including historical.
My son is seven and he loves historical boardgames. We've recently picked up some Bolt Action figures but haven't gotten them to the table yet due to his fixation on Space Hulk and Imperial Assault.
Space Hulk is a great game, bought it again on re release some years ago. Game mechanics are similar to Bolt Action so you are on a winner there. Main thing is to let them roll dice and have fun, the rest will follow IMHO..
Historical gaming is not dying. Historical gamers are... sorry for the cheap shot, I feel very old lately... I'm a keen historical gamer and after all these years I still love this hobby like the first day, possibly more. So all I can say is: get those dice rolling, because I can't see a future without gaming. Cheers from Italy!
of course it’s not as popular but I still love it i’m 12 years old
Me too
Im 12 too and i love historical wargaming
Justin Hamel ya it’s so fun but expensive love from Canada 🇨🇦
Not many people our age to play with
ya
I have been playing for decades and both of my sons also play. I see the problem is with wargamers. We need to mentor and be more friendly especially at conventions. Just my 2 cents. Love the channel
I'm 29 and just getting started with historicals, specifically around the Roman conquest of Britain.
Stopped playing Warhammer around 8 years ago, spending more time playing PC games like Total War, company of heroes etc. These led me to read lots more history books, which have in turn got me itching to paint and play on the tabletop again. Regarding the cost of historicals - as someone who has dabbled with the idea of playing GW games again over the last couple of years, they actually seem extremely affordable in comparison!
In my case, for example, I picked up the Infamy, Infamy rules from TooFatLardies, a Roman force (about 80 models) and a Celtic force (150 models), plus a load of trees, mdf movement trays and an mdf Celtic building for under £200.
The models are from Victrix, and absolutely beautiful.
Another bonus is that when they can be used for a wide range of rulesets, should I get tired of this one.
In my opinion, part of the issue has to do with a lack of introductory games. The only local convention I know of is Recruits (awesome people, I meet the organizer at a band event a few years back) and there aren't really any 'pick-up-and-play' historics that people run. I'm talking games like Axis and Allies that you can just sit down and play without really any prior knowledge of the conflict. If a manufacturer made an all-in-one box set for napoleonics or ACW of a similar style (with rules like Altar of Freedom, summarized in 2 pages), I'm sure it would help expand into younger demographics.
People dont start with miniatures, you start with low cost boardgames like Squad Leader, then move UP into miniatures. minis cost too much. But with inflation even the old AH Squad Leader, or better yet remember MBT? I bought it in the 90s for $20. Well its follow up versions are still sold by the original author, only now its $100.
I hope it isn't declining because I am still young and just invested in board games
Glad to have you guys back! What I think might help grow the community would be starter kits, kind of like what Star Wars Rebellion/Armada does.
I'm 24 and I got my start in wargaming with Warhammer 40k. I am, however, looking into Flames of War and Team Yankee and own most of Warlord Game's historical rulebooks, including Black Powder, SPQR, and Pike and Shotte. I actually found this channel yesterday and it is encouraging me to explore historical wargaming more.
Hithere. I am playing Bolt Action with a small group in norther Germany. We are all between 30 and 45. But I also play Warhammer 40k, most of the 40k players are slightly younger. But I also experienced that the younger ones start with 40k and/or Age of Sigmar and then later find their way to other tabletops. So naturally they are older when they start historical wargames, but this does not mean historical wargamming is dying.
18, been into Napoleonics since 15. I'd say there are more people my age playing than there was when I was 15 for sure.
Love it!
The biggest bugbear is painting and assembling the damned things.
This is a process you have to go through, almost by default, since there's an aesthetic aspect that is strong in the hobby.
I have purchased pre-painted miniatures in the past that look the part (Battlefield Evolution: Modern Combat), but you ultimately pay for the Chinese paint job.
I think David Ensteness hit the nail on the head for why most people don't get into historical wargaming. Me and my fellow broke college student friends all play wh40k, and while I've been gently pushing to try out some historical scenarios, they haven't been receptive. Old, retired men have the time and capital to sink into a heavily research-based hobby. We don't.
Games Workshop makes it easy, which is why they're making a money hand over fist while historical wargaming is circling the drain.
Yeah, my group is all 40k, Legion, and Frostgrave. We bust out Might of Arms on special occasions, but we have the fortune of access to an extensive 15mm collection from my mate's parents.
If you can afford GWs 40K models you can easily afford Warlord's Bolt Action for example. Those of us who played 40K v2 can see a lot of its mechanics in BA. I think tabletop games are strong outside the US but historical gaming seems to be very "old school" inside the US as a generalisation.
Has it ever occurred to you that part of your group's penury might be that you are gaming with one of the most expensive figure ranges and ruleset in the market?
Take a moment to research the range and price of 1/72 historical figures, and do a bang for buck comparison with the GW range.
Then consider the comparative costs of other rulesets, bearing in mind that most don't require the constant rule and codex updates that GW games demand.
There is certainly validity to arguments for Warhammer etc in terms of their popular accessibility, but definitely not in terms of value for money.
By the way, historical rulesets also tend to be more instructive to reality than fantasies constructed around orks in space.
Something for a poor student to consider.
@@corvusboreus2072 1:72 figures aren't really an apples to apples comparison in terms of figures, since they are a lot smaller than 32mm and usually softer and simpler on the sculpts.
@@Hepabytes I realise that, but, in the end, they are all just toys on a table.
If you'd prefer one largish shiny apple over a whole big basket of mixed fruit then that is your choice.
I'm a 18 year old who just purchased a 6mm Napoleonics starter set from Baccus miniatures, so I think it has a chance
Excellent to hear! And a great choice of scale, I might add!
Going small lets you play--reenact even--large battles.
We all moved to Computer wargaming - Total War etc. No more spending 2 hours to setup a battle.
Plus I never have to worry about finding people to play with. I try to get my friends and some coworkers into Bolt Action I got some interest but it never took off.
@@brentwhite7150 Bolt Action is what got me into historical wargaming
@@silverrain530 yeah it looks fun. I got a force of early and mid war germans with a panther.
@@brentwhite7150 I happened to get lucky and found a guy selling a bunch of German minis he couldn't finish for cheap so now I have a 90~ man German company. I also get Allied minis for Christmas often to fight them
I'm a graybeard but my 14 year old son is active in the hobby (and has been for several years). He started a club at his middle school and has introduced the hobby to 10-12 fellow students. That's how we grow the hobby. We find (or spawn) champions within the target demographic, encourage them, help them with material ( terrain is key) and what ever other support we can. Of those 10-12 , three of them now have their own miniature collections and regularly participate outside of school in gaming events locally and regionally.
I play rank and file fantasy games, the 9th age primarily, and we run into a similar problem. Getting new players interested in war gaming, one way we have been able to gain new players is by play at stores not our basements, pre-pandemic at least.
I also have been interested in history from a very young age, primarily the French and Indian war and American revolution, due to growing up in Western Pennsylvania and going to reenactments. I have not gotten in to historical war gaming mostly due to the lack of a local group/scene.
As a former Fantasy player myself, the problem with T9A is similar to the issue with Historicals - you just don't have a market there. You're trying to "sell" a game specifically to the folks who played WHFB, but who *aren't* just playing WHFB with their friends in the basement. There are whole communities playing 'OldHammer' and 'MiddleHammer' and have the opinion that if something's not broke, don't fix it. People who want a tournament scene, conventions, etc are all playing 'Kings of War' or begrudgingly switched to 'Age of Sigmar'.
Even harder, because it's not like T9A has established an ecosystem. New players who want to play High Elves have to scrounge to find models and won't have the nice GW plastics that probably got them into the army. Even returning players are faced with trying to collect new armies at eye-watering FleaBay prices.
On a more personal note - I think that T9A was actually the nail in the coffin for the 8e WHFB community. In every other scenario that a game went belly-up, people kept playing it and kept it alive as it had been. 'Blood Bowl' for example, and the old editions of WHFB. When 8th bottled, the tournaments suddenly dried up. A bunch of people went to KoW, a few went to T9A, and plenty just petered-out with no big events to go to. If the ETC guys, Masters, and the T9A had put their energy into maintaining a thriving 8th edition community instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, the people who hit the Masters circuit in 2014 would have come back out in 2015 and kept coming.
Tyler Stone I agree - in addition, T9A’s agnostic fantasy, in my case, isn’t appealing at all, so I went back to 7th ed and older editions.
@@SlyBlu7For me it was being able someone to play with, my group currently has 8 locally that play 9th age, so I play 9th age. We also have an active tournament scene that typically runs 4 to 6 tournaments a year with between 30 to 50 players at each. I know not everyone likes to go to tournaments, but to keep an active and growing community you need both the friendly games and the competitive games.
If my group would have stuck with 8th for longer I would have kept playing 8th, but one of the problems with playing old hammer is nothing changes and the game begins to get boring. At least with a living game like 9th age somethings change to keep it feeling fresh.
My problem with 9th Age is that it's based on 8th edition - the version that broke Fantasy with its terrible magic system, hordes, buses, simplified movement and laser guided war machines.
It's much better to play 6th edition and just house rule it so that units fight in 2 ranks and make 5 models the normal unit frontage instead of 4 (like in 7th).
It was based off of 8th, but it is a very different game now. I would suggest checking out what it has become instead of where it came from.
Warlord games is going strong in my region. They have some amazing introductory rulesets like bolt action or black powder. Easy to learn, fun to play plus a lot of support. I believe historical wargaming is in a good state right now as there are many young players coming to historical wargaming from games workshop rulesets.
David E is spot on! Hoping more companies understand this - right or wrong people need a 'system' to buy into. It is very hard to find historical groups if there is no center of gravity (i.e. a known brand/set of rules).
Applaud you for looking at a gateway game - reminds me of my first napoleonic boardgame - For me it comes down to 1) accessibility of more clubs that advertise and are welcoming to new players, 2) not in public as much as we could be - particularly in supporting local game stores - so much is bought online because in store inventories are hard to maintain for all periods and manufacturers - if the shift to 3d printing isnt made - perhaps a catalog like walthers that local game stores can have with easy ordering plans 3) Atlas for model railroading used to produce a free booklet that showed you easy to complex layouts - with materials listed - easy to use 4) Understand we have "channels" from historical interest, painting, gaming and so on - a club generally merges those, for someone with no clubs there are different entries for each and 5) Scale creep - too many scales - period 2mm, 6mm, 10mm, 15mm, 18mm, 25mm, 28mm, etc up to 54mm - including in ship and plane scales and we go even further - If I am a new gamer - with all the other questions - which way do I go - Final thought I got my start with airfix 1/72 and 1/32 with a couple of colors on them - then eventually moved on to buying some of the pre-painted mikes models and some second hand figures to play
i remember the old wargamers in the 90's saying the same thing. i think we are spoiled with the amount of talented sculptors, game designers, painters, clubs, high quality you tube channels, great wargame companies, personalities in the field.
its getting time to play the flippin games amongst friends that is a problem today. also i personally find the cost of the hobby expensive now, not as much disposable income nowadays but i do have a fairly good collection from the past 40 years of gaming to keep me going. brilliant video, i would have really liked to see the rest of the interviews.
I'm 46 and I will put it to you like this...
WW1 and WW2 had such an impact on society giving most people that connection and influence with people involved in these events that also created the world we were all living in.
As those now grow up without that generation like myself talking to grandparents and their direct experiences in the second world war directly influenced my love of history and how these events they were involved in came about. This love also led to exploring other times in history for gaming.. Remember the 1980s we were drowning in books of WW2, now people have moved on to other events..
What a great topic. I must admit, being into this hobby on and off since the late 1970s, that we are in " a new golden age " with the hobby in general, historical, and fantasy/sci-fi
It’s not dying, just changing forms. There is large aftermarket for classic war-games, and kickstarters are coming out often.
Welcome Back! So glad you are hitting the ground running! Trying to bring new, i.e. younger players in to historicals is really no harder than getting them into any other genre. When I had my game store, I had to point out to many a parent that balked at the entry price, that this was NOT a game, this was a hobby, and one that would possibly last a life time.
I also have found that games like 'What a Tanker', really brings the younger crowd out. I went from a quick demo at the LGS to playing with a core group of kids, (to me!) every Thursday night. Sometimes dads, moms, and older siblings stop by to see what the fuss is about. So historicals declining in popularity? No, but as others pointed out, it isn't many new players first pick.
"It's not a game, it's a hobby". Great point. We make this hobby ourselves as individuals.
I was 37 when I got my first Bolt action set split with my friend who is 28. Played my first game last year and im hooked.
Been gaming for over 30 years, one pattern I have seen, is that the majority of people who are new to the wargaming hobby start off with the Fantasy/Sci-Fi games, and as they get older develop a taste and interest in Historical wargaming. I have long suspected it is partly based in a burn out of the game design of Warhammer and the like. Too heavily focused on flashy special rules that require little tactical depth.
I'm a 48 year old who has been intrigued by the idea of historical wargaming since my teenage years. But only entered the hobby a year ago, thanks to stumbling across Little Wars TV. Thanks guys! So why did it take so long?
1) Inaccessible: Had no idea where to start with rules, miniatures, etc. There needs to be some sort of 'entry drug' into historicals, like Warhammer 40K and similar games for sci fi/fantasy. Bolt Action, Flames of War and similar are close, but not quite. There is still a lot of 'what do I need to buy to play a game' questions involved. A solid big boxed set of everything, or even a direct list of what to buy to get started would help. It took me a long time after starting down the Little Wars TV rabbit hole until I figured out what to play and what I needed/where i could buy it.
2) No players: I play a lot of RPGs, and thankfully one of the other guys is interested in historical too. So solved that problem recently.
Loved this video. Can't wait for the next video. This is a topic that definitely needs discussed and we do need to take some action to move the hobby forward. Thanks for tackling this.
I am 28 and have been gaming since I was 12. My first entry into the hobby was warhammer 40k but since then I have mostly moved my interests into smaller companies sci fi lines for skirmish gaming. A small fast paced battle is what suits me most these days! I do also collect a lot of historical models, mainly ancient, some ACW, some boxer rebellion and ww1 and ww2. My main problem is finding people to play with, so I have sort of settled into a collecting and painting role. That said it would be great to get into club gaming again!
Great question and a great idea to ask representatives from the hobby what they think. Having wargamed as a lad, I have now returned to it and love it. Yes I am long in the tooth but most at our club are on the young side and so will be keeping the hobby going for ages.
David’s comments stand out to me. For as much as I love your content, military history in general, and the idea of historical wargaming, it’s not the easiest hobby to get into-and even with my strong proclivity for those things, the closest to historical miniatures wargaming that I’ve gotten was Axis & Allies miniatures back in the day and Wings of Glory more recently (thanks again). The pre-painted/assembled and self-contained rules of those games are big selling points for gamers that aren’t already plugged into a local network or club that can share experience and encouragement. I did get into Warhammer fantasy (pre Age of Sigmar) because it had a strong local infrastructure with local game stores having scheduled Warhammer days, etc. and that tends to be a huge advantage that the points-based games have.
Anyway, I’m looking forward to your next video!
The Axis and Allies collectable miniatures games were great, if a bit pricy. I had a group where we would play team games , usually two per side controlling anywhere from 100-200 points of units. Had a blast, easy to set up ,play and felt " accurate" enough ,despite it's abstractions. The " War at Sea game" was better for teams though. Gonna have to dig that stuff out again and try to convince my Gaslands fanatic brother-in-law to play it!
i've been watching this channel over the last week or so, and it's really caught my attention. Historicals were something i'd not paid much attention to (i primarly play 40k), but they look intriguing. One thing i've noticed, though, is the attention to historical detail present in a lot of these games. While this might be a plus for those well versed in historicals, it might seem daunting to newcomers or those who play other systems. personally, i've always enjoyed the game more than the lore for a lot of what i've played (though having something apporpriate to the fluff does make the game more fun). Without having played historicals myself, its kind of hard to say if that's maybe one of the things keeping people from picking up something like Black Powder vs, say, 40k or warma/hordes. That said, the ravenfeast game you guys put up recently looked pretty neat, and with the viking age being really in vogue in pop culture right now, it could be a good way to catch the attention of younger gamers.
Glad you found us, Randy! You are spot on with your comment about about historical detail being a possible barrier to new players who may prefer the "open world" of sci-fi or fantasy. There's certainly a segment of the historical gaming population (myself included) who really enjoy this aspect of researching what uniforms and equipment looked like, but others could find that less appealing. We definitely wanted to start with Dark Age skirmish gaming as a free gateway game because it's a lot easier to paint the figures. Earth tones and chain mail and you're about done!
Wargaming is something friends do together. It is hard for interested strangers to find each other, much less get together to game. And given the competitive nature of the hobby, there has to be a certain common understanding and norms established over time to be enjoyable. You had a previous video where you talked about your club and how you accept new members based on how compatible they with the current club members. Making new friends gets harder as you grow older, and I do think that you need to be friends to game enjoyable. All of which makes it hard for this relatively small hobby to grow beyond its established base.
There are several reasons for the decline of miniature wargaming, but the number one reason by far is stubbornness on the part of MANY of the players. More specifically, their unwillingness to branch out and try new things, thus encouraging designers and publishers to keep producing more and more.
My personal example of that is my own game Command Combat: Civil War. I worked my ass off on the game and on its promotion. As a result it was nominated for best historical war game in 2011. And yet I couldn't get anyone to look at it. I'd present it at a convention, and players would slow down and ask, "Is that Fire & Fury?" "No. It's..." "Johnny Reb?" "No, it's..." and before I could tell them about it, they've walked away. If it wasn't a game they were already obsessively playing over and over, they weren't even willing to take a look at it. And this was a game that was nominated!
Compare that with the board gaming industry. I work with some people who market board games, and whenever we pull out their games, board gamers, and even non-gamers, stop and take a look. And when we explain the game, they listen! Many try it out and some buy it right away. And if it's a game that was nominated for an award? Forget it! Everyone's looking and buying it on the spot. Board gamers then take them around and show them off to their friends. As such, the board gamers themselves expand the hobby.
Miniature wargamers tend to be very cliquish. They have their group of friends and they have their group of games, and they're not interested in anything outside of that bubble. The natural result is for the hobby not to grow and to slowly fade away.
I've more recently released a sci fi miniatures game, and you know what? Players actually try it out! A lot of older gamers like to stick their noses up to them and say younger people don't care about history, but that's simply not true. It's just that the sci fi and fantasy people are more willing to try new things, and as a result there are more fresh, new fantasy and sci fi games being played on more tables, so more people see it. More exposure = a longer lasting hobby.
So if you want historical miniatures to last, get your heads outside of your bubbles and try some new things. And when you see something new you like, help get it exposure.
Why, if a rule system works, why invest in more.
@@mikegrant8031 I do understand the desire to just stay with one game. I often do the same thing. But what you're saying is backing up my point. Players don't want to invest in another system, (hell, they won't even LOOK at another system, which is a big part of my point,) therefore new systems don't get created, the older systems grow stale or die out, and the hobby dies out. This cycle does not happen in the board gaming industry, which is why it's thriving and historical miniatures is dying.
@@jeffmcarthur5617 why would a new rule system matter, if the other systems are serving the need. If a new system came out and it filled a void then it would sell. If the market is saturated well its saturated.
@@mikegrant8031 There are two answers to your question. One, how do you know there isn't something better if you don't try it out, (like at a convention or from a free sample.) That is the majority of my point. Most historical war gamers won't even look at other systems, let alone try them out. But the bigger point here is that you are continuing to prove what I'm saying. If the current game system you own works for you, great. Go for it. Board gamers will keep trying out new systems and continue to grow their hobby. War gamers will continue to do what you're obviously doing, never trying anything outside what they're already playing, and the hobby will continue to die. Period. That's just what's naturally going to happen. No one here is telling you that you have to get a new game system. But it is a simple fact that the board game industry thrives by players trying and buying new games, and the historical war gaming industry is dying because their players do not.
@@jeffmcarthur5617 buying new games does not equate to hobby growth, its just more money spent not more players in the hobby. Yoir just spreading the same sized player base over a wider number of systems.
I have a lot of thoughts on this, I'll work on a reaction video
Please do! We would love to share it. Such an important topic for those of us currently in the community to talk about.
One of the opening shots shows the 2020 Cold Wars dealers hall. It looked pretty empty but to be fair Covid was just breaking out and Cold Wars attendance was down more than 50% from normal.
I’m 16 and just recently started with collecting 28mm Napoleonics, I only paint them for collecting and display, because in my area and age group there aren’t many I could war game with. So in my case I completely leave out the rules and terrain etc. that you’d need for wargaming. A big issue is also the price of collecting, painting and basing these figures, so I am never able to buy the figures I want, because I don’t get much pocket money.
Back in the day my pocket money was one shilling a week (5p) and that bought me one figure.
Part of my love for wargaming was learning about military history. I would learn about it in school, read a book, and then want to play a game about it. There has been a radical shift in the last 15-20 years in how history is taught, what is included, and what is excluded. Also, we are now dealing with a generation that has little to no contact with a veteran. Less than 1% of the US population is serving in the military. This number continues to dwindle. Why is this important? I would argue that even if you never chose to serve I believe many of us know or have known a combat veteran that significantly impacted our lives. I had an old WWII pilot vet who was my Sunday School teacher who used to tell me all sorts of stories. I thought about flying in the war many times, and he played a large part in my life in wanting to join the Air Force. Joining the military has traditionally been seen as a good thing for serving your nation. Now I would say that society at large sees it as either neutral or a negative thing. How does this impact wargaming? With a neutral or negative view of the military and a lack of emphasis at schools teaching it, you will find little interest in those who want to learn about it and potentially play games about it.
I have a unique view on this because like Curtis I am the next generation of wargamers. I'm in my mid-20s now but a decade ago as a teen, I ran and attended the HMGS conventions, Historicon, Cold Wars, Fall-In especially because they were in Pennsylvania. My problem with gaming has always been finding people to play with. Those conventions gave me a great opportunity to run and play games and I was lucky enough to have parents who would foot the bill to allow me to do that. The second problem with miniatures was cost and labor it took a lot of dedication and money to build an army. I was hooked and I always was working on the next army! needless to say, I had a few armies that were built painted and stored away never to see the light of day (Warhammer, Flames of War).
Currently, I've caught the DND bug for two reasons.
1. Much larger player base and a local community for me to play with.
2. The cost of entry is Dice, Paper, and reading material.
As the breadwinner of a family of three and growing, I cannot afford miniatures anymore. That makes me sad, there's literally nothing that gets me more excited than seeing a table full of hundreds of expertly painted minis and awesome scenery. That feeling cannot be beaten. I Gawk at the poor quality figures that RPG games often pass off as miniatures! Historical Video Gaming is Strong, Total War, Battlefield, Hell even COD is going to Vietnam in November! Historical and Fantasy Genres are just that, Genres. They play off each other.
*Miniature Wargaming needs to be more accessible, that's the #1 solution. That will bring in people who want to play but can't. (I hope this isn't blasphemy) Paper miniatures(or tokens)/Terrain would make wargaming super accessible. Printable PDF with Rules, maps, minis, and terrain: Print, Cut, glue, DONE! I think DND does do a great job at making miniature gaming accessible but its only small scale skirmishes. you could take the same techniques and scale X10,100 and have a real Wargame Battle.*
A dream we dream together is reality...
Thank you for this fantastic, well written observation on what barriers exist from the perspective of a younger player. It's going to be hard for big historical battles to match the lower barrier to entry of DnD (paper and a book, as you noted!) but I absolutely think we can take a more thoughtful approach to tailoring historical games for those who may not want to spend $500 and 100 hours painting Napoleon's army at Waterloo. And to be clear, I'm one of those guys who IS WILLING to do that, but imagine how many more players we could tap into if we gave some options to those who don't have that time....
@@LittleWarsTV Thank you for the response, I agree nothing is ever going to beat sitting around a huge table filled with miniatures and terrain and I wish that I had the time and ability to make that happen every day!
Running a wargame virtually, like virtual D&D, could be the solution. I use Google Drawings but there are a few virtual Tabletop programs out there. All you need is a Video Chat program with screen sharing and a Game Master to host. The advantage would be you could run wargames for people anywhere in the world for a very low cost. The main hurdle would be to convert or gather a library of digital tokens to represent the minis you'd have on the table. These would be in the form of 2d image files you overlaid on a battle map. After you have the basic assets they could be infinitely copied to fill the table. It's far from perfect but would allow any group to reach out to potential new players, play from home in between weekends, test out new games, etc. DND players do this daily on sites like Roll20. A scaled-up version could be the solution to make the entry point for basic wargaming vanish!
Great question! I think it depends on when you started. I started historical gaming in 1977 at age 10. For the first 4-5 years, I was the only player under ~25 at my local gaming club. Most of the guys were in their late 30s, 40s and 50s. Ten years later, the situation had completely changed. I was part of a large group of historical gamers, most in their late teens and early 20s. I think the reason was that in the 1980s historical wargaming became more affordable and there was a much greater diversity of rules, figures, scales, and periods. As a kid, I didn't have the resources to build a Napoleonics army with 28mm Hincliffe figures. By the time I went to university in the mid-80s, there were lots of affordable options. Now when I go to my friendly local game store I see a lot of young players. True, most are playing fantasy and sci-fi games, but some are playing WWII and modern games. I would prefer to see more historical games, but as long as the hobby is doing well, there's always the potential for new recruits...
Excellent topic and love the diversity of people you interviewed.
I'm 30, Just started doing Napoleonics 2 years ago. I was hesitant at first because I bought mine from a local shop and the guys in there playing black powder were in there 50s or 60s.
I didn't think I could fit it anywhere or find anyone my age. I'm still having a hard time in PA finding something.
I think it all boils down to time. You see older people gaming because they're usually retired. Whereas me, I love to game and paint, but I also have a house, wife, job, and kids to take care of.
Awesome video, really enjoy the discussion. I suspect wargaming is growing quickly, however historicals as a subset may be stagnant/slow growing. Not surprised manufacturing/publishing has shifted away from the US - I don't think the influence of GW in Nottingham can be understated ;) keep it up!
I am a longtime fan of historical miniature war-gaming with an interest in massed armies, primarily the blackpowder periods. A constant member of HMGS, attending all three of the usual conventions on the East Coast; their closure this year was heart-breaking.
The discussions concerning cost of figures, travel and other paraphernalia in the covid era have an impact on everyone.
There is an opportunity for simulated figure war-gaming available that some may not be aware of. D and D players are aware of it, regular board game players are, and so is the Lock and Load company. They have moved many of their board games to this environment as free offerings. They are even looking at mini-conventions for the games.
This is the Tabletop Simulator available on the Steam network. It is exactly that and people can set up any game there emulating a regular table. There are a variety of 2D and 3D games available created by users but no massed historical war-gaming so far. This could be an excellent environment for HMGS to explore.
If 3D figures for historical games are primarily designed in computers anyway, that should be a simple addition and so should rule sets. I would think this is an easy way for companies to create an appeal for the gaming public to want their products in both digital and physical forms.
:}
I totally agree with David. Games with unclear information makes it harder to get into. I've been out of 40k for years and now trying to get back into it, but there are now a ton of books and other garbage that I'm not sure I need or what to pick up. While that is healthy, other games are falling into that trap. there is nothing clear as to what you need.
The first thing you need for 40k now is a guarantee from whoever you're going to be playing that they won't be bringing a cheesed out list of min/maxed crap. GW chucked any idea of balance out of the window a few years back and while the GW community will preach about 40k being fun, the company fixing problems and listening to gamers, it's rarely true. My advice would be to get on Facebook and ask one of the groups to outline the best units in the army you're interested in, then just spam those units. Be prepared to need to buy the next uber broken army every year to keep up, otherwise it'll get depressing very quickly.
Great work guys! Glad to have you back at it! Really hankering to get more gaming done since COVID, and you guys help scratch the itch.
You chaps are some of the people that pushed me to start a games club in my local area. Can't wait for covid to move on so we can open the doors again. More power to you and your message, keep doing what you're doing.
Looks like I'm in a minority in thinking that Historical Wargames are in decline, I would say the complete opposite.
It's never been easier to get into the hobby, there are loads of how to videos on the Utubes, Facebook has groups with thousands of people into specific periods, if ever there was a time to ask someone how to get into a period or scale it is now, just ask !
Money, hearing GW players saying historical games are expensive is hilarious, I've bought GW figures for my lad as he grew up and THEY are not cheap. Try Model Railways if you want expensive Historical Gaming is one of the cheapest hobbies around (unless you are paying for figs to be painted).
There are hundreds of historical gaming clubs around the country and where as before you had to search the back of the only hobby magazine to find it (if you were lucky enough to buy the one your local club advertised in). Add to that the growing number of independent games shops in the UK (Common Ground in Stirling, Wargames Emporium in Sheffield etc etc) it's never been easier to search the net and find a club or gaming space.
Research is so easy, want the uniform of the French Young Guard Voltigeurs in 1812, type it in your search bar and boom it's there, no ordering a book from a libary or book shop and waiting a month for it.
All forms of non digital gaming are on the rise as people who sit in front of a computer all day don't want to sit in front of one to relax. This is the dawn of a Golden Age of Historical.
Regards Ken
The Yarkshire Gamer
We have never been so lucky.
It is hard to imagine that Historical Wargames are in decline. I think the reason why people think that it is, is that Sci fi and fantasy are growing much faster.
It was interesting to see the different opinions from the US which seemed very negative and the UK which was very positive 👍
I agree. We have a large library at our club built up over many years but it's never used now so we are gradually selling it off to our members and other local gamers.
@@michaelallen2190 its a shame Michael books are no longer the first port of call for info anymore. Ive got a big selection of uniform references but I'm guilty of sitting at my paint table, having a query on a model I'm painting and rather than go upstairs to get a book I look it up on the net.
Still love a good book but rarely use them.
"we've never had it so lucky"
But we do still love a good whinge ;) .
As you say, info-tech gives us the tools to easily research rules and figures, as well as the history they represent.
It's just up to us to make the effort to connect and engage.
I have a limited view the broader picture but around where I live (small town Australia) there are a few more people playing tabletop historical games (mainly chain of command in 1/72) than there was a year ago (namely myself, my brother and a couple of mates).
The only way to grow it is to do it.
Ww2 , crusades, French and Indian war, American civil war in 28mm is so much fun!
Great video!
I know that Bolt action is becoming very popular where I am (Singapore) as well as Flames of War. Ive bought the BA miniatures but havent painted them yet, so cant wait to get into that! After that, Ill give FoW a go!
Great video chaps and very thought provoking. From my own experience on the subject, I run a small channel that is primarily focused on historical gaming but is very much Bolt Action content heavy as this is currently my main and favourite gaming rule set. Over the last year or so, it has been really interesting to chat to people through comments or social media that have either switched or expanded into historical gaming from more fantasy/sci-fi centric systems and their reasons, views and thoughts for doing so. Overall I think that these days, people that entered the hobby purely on the fantasy/sci-fi angle seem to be a lot more willing to look at the options that historical gaming has. I remember during my formative hobby years in the early 90's, there seemed to be a reluctance to look outside of the more fantasy driven gaming systems.
Hi Gregg
It's interesting that people are framing some sort of battle between video games and wargames. Anecdotally, I have found that playing games like Post Scriptum, Hell Let Loose, Rising Storm 2, etc has been a great way of including my friends in wargaming. For instance, I plat an online ww2 shooter with my friend during the week after work, and then on the weekend can con them into a wargame by framing it as a different view of the FPS we play. It's also great for understanding why some rules are the way they are. If I'm shooting a K98 on a video game for a couple of hours a week I can grasp the nature of shooting rules for ww2 Germans.
My opinion is that there's two elements missing here - the first one is that people are still focused on the Fantasy/Sci-Fi to Historicals Pipeline. That's never gonna work. Not anymore, anyway. People who play Warhammer are too focused on Warhammer. What is gonna work and is worth noting is that a significant amount is making a Videogame to Historicals jump, and they're bypassing a lot of the expected entry games. A game like Blucher is more likely to be played by college students than, say, Bolt Action.
This is a compelling argument. There has always been heavy focus on "converting" fantasy/sci fi players to try historicals and you may be right that the video game pipeline is a larger funnel to pursue.
@@LittleWarsTV A big part of it is also the amount of money spent and dedicated to Fantasy and Sci-Fi curves way higher than those spent on videogames. Someone who's playing, say, Ultimate General: Civil War or Hearts of Iron might spend a significant amount of time with it, but not money. It's way easier to convince someone like that to spend more money on something else than someone who's already spent hundreds on Warhammer 40k or Warmachine. This is also coming from my own current experience as a college student trying to start a wargaming club here in Cincinnati, OH - people who played Warhammer were overwhelmingly insular and didn't even want the terrain; the people who delved into historicals had no experience with miniature wargaming beforehand, they just saw it and went "cool" because I had actual terrain, for starters, even if it wasn't the most gorgeous terrain ever, and delved right in, because they had experience with Total War and Paradox games and anything in that same sort of genre.
Hell, it's my own story (I'm 20 now), I skipped the entire genre of Sci-Fi/Fantasy and headed straight into Historicals at 16 and I do think a significant reason for it is, well, I had historical gaming experience beforehand, maybe not historical tabletop wargaming experience (it'd be two more years until that happened, I began playing hex and chit), but certainly historical gaming experience, and I was more interested on the historical side of things.
The one person I agree the most with here is, oddly, Sam Mustafa (all hail!), who has an absurdly excellent point that the argument for the genre dying isn't an incoming amount of people, but a declining number of people producing minis and rulesets (in the US, anyhow). Especially minis, I have been waiting for Bacchus to reopen to order some 6mm Napoleonic French to provide an army to fight against my 6mm Napoleonic Russians, so that I can have it at ready when the Board Game Club opens here again.
@@LittleWarsTV the flipside to the argument is that tabletop fantasy gaming is still an active multifaceted hobby (assembling and painting miniatures and terrain etc) whilst electronic gaming is essentially passive consumption (buy, plug in and play).
This generally means a much easier bridge for tabletop model gamers who are already into gluing their fingers together, but just a bit over the GW approach (strictly canonical with endless rules updates and codex rehashes) than for screen junkies who don't even own a small paintbrush.
People who like to play with painted figures on simulated terrain are, after all, the desired demographic.
The appeal of slickly marketed non-historical games to the younguns is not something that can be easily overturned, but I think the best option is that as we pursue our hobby, we keep a visibly approachable profile so, when fantasy gamer eyes start wandering, we can offer an alternative that is both cheaper and richer.
@@citizenofvenus Cincy, eh? Do you go to CincyCon? I drive down from the Dayton area to play historical miniatures there.
@@dalerobinson8051 I was planning on going to this year, but that didn't happen.
I don't think it's gonna really die out, but younger people who would have been into wargaming 20 or 30 years ago, are playing historical video games with each other instead. Like the game War of Rights, which is essentially civil war reenactment for young people.
Having tried to start historical in a Rural Community: I can totally see why it's a much older audience. And probably mostly more Urban. I've had a really hard time getting access to paints, minis, just generally materials. And with my first year of college starting I'm not going to have the time or money to make any significant gains on setting up new games. Older people have a lot more free time and expendable income. I think that for younger people to get it the bar for entry is going to have to be significantly lower. A big boxed kit "starter army" and the paints for it included would have certainly helped me, and I suspect others as well.
The high cost is clearly a barrier for many players--especially younger players, but also some older players who just don't have a few hundred extra dollars to drop on toys. In Part 2 next week we'll talk about at least one possible solution.
Historical war-gaming is something I’ve only tried once and found i was more interested in reading about the history (I played a game set during the crusades) than actually playing. For me personally it lacked the creativity I get to indulge via a sci fi/fantasy war game.
The person I played was really into the accuracy of the way he painted his minis while I just wanted to paint it how I wanted. Did have fun building the terrain (now used in my fantasy games)
Great return,guys ! Am a game designer and all of your videos are just so excellent ! Thanks for your engagement in our little universe and passion ! Greeting from france
Much appreciated!
Great piece to watch guys. I have mentioned this before. I worked in the wargames industry for nearly 40 years, i am now retired. The industry has been dying for some time now. I know this as i lived it. It was for me at its most vibrant during the 1980's up to the end of the 1990's since then it has slowly died. You would only have to look at the traders we have lost, the shops that have closed down, and the convention circuit, a mere shadow of what it used to be. This of course is in the UK, and a funny thing to see your talking head mentioning the USA as the heart of wargaming, in the UK we consider the UK as the heart of wargaming, each to their own no doubt.
I've played a little bit of every miniatures games, including Warhammer/40k, Warmachine, pre-painted Star Wars games, etc. Historicals were always intriguing but hard to find, and the hobby aspects are a lot less interesting - the idea of painting 200 olive drab dudes makes me go a little cross-eyed. What got me interested in taking up the historicals challenge was the opportunity to connect with my kids, who are suddenly homeschooling. It's an art project and a history lesson while still being fun. I'm just scratching the surface of what I can teach my kids through the hobby, but the homeschooling audience would be a good one to consider.
Historical war gaming has always been a middle aged guy hobby but don’t worry there are new middle aged guys coming along all the time. Lol. To be serious though If there were some hard stats that we could reference I doubt that we’d find that the numbers of historical miniature gamers in the world at any given time changes all that much. I think that the bearded fedora wearing guy you interviewed has it right. Great video as usual!
Totally disagree. I started in 6th or 7th grade with Panzer Blitz. My HS had a historical games club. What has happened is the hobby stopped supporting the younger players and other things took them away.
Middle aged white guy XD
I'm 38 and got into the wargaming hobby when I was 12. So I've been at it for 26 years now. That said, I've switched over to 2mm because they're faster to paint up, and to my mind they can give a more interesting experience. The buy in as regards time and money is much smaller with micro-scales, which makes it easier for people to get into. Younger people have less space and time to play these games than they used to, and there's a lot of competition from other games and a more demanding work culture than what existed, say, twenty years ago. That said, it's heartening to see so many people younger than myself in the comments who are also in the hobby. Anyone in California???
Too far to get together (Ohio). 2mm is crazy small. But I can see it working. I imagine painting is simple because you can't paint eyeballs, etc, anyway. And you could stage Barbarossa!
Like so many discussions, this video and the interviewees really focus on miniature war gaming as a business, not as a hobby. They judge it on sales, on who can make it a career. Stamp collecting is still a hobby, even though people don't make a living off the hobby. The hobby will remain, but as a business? Probably not forever.
As a young wargamer who has just started with historics (coming from warhammer) I have to say the scariest thought getting in to it is the inconsistency, nobody plays the same scale for example ACW. People play 3mm, 6mm, 10mm, 12mm, 13.5mm, 15mm and 28mm among other scales, along with the fact that no one uses the same rule set with their being 3 to 4 rule sets for every scale. I also ran into the problem of finding opponents. I come from a 70,000 person town with 2 mtg/miniature gaming stores. Out of all these people we ran a survey in our town over a year with questions online and at the stores and the only historical are 2 people who play bolt action. I play 10mm Napolonics and 13.5mm ACW so this was very upsetting as the survey being readily available for a year means any active wargamer would participate. I guess I should just stick with warhammer which had over 50 people say they played.
I think sadly yes, but a big reason for that in the USA at least is the game store's dominance as far as determining what gets played. It's incredibly rare to find a game store that supports historical gaming except maybe Bolt Action and Flames of War; everything else is the domain of the "grognards" that meet in someone's basement or clubhouse and since in the US at least most people I've seen only play what they can buy at their local game store that means they often never know or care about a lot of the smaller esoteric games because they can't easily go and buy products for it. Even now a lot of the rules you have to go hunting around On Military Matters or similar sites to find them. And then there are all the different miniature manufacturers (most of which are in the UK) so it's just choice on top of choice on top of choice without any real guidance.
On that note, another issue is the sheer volume of rules and figures. If you play something mainstream like Warhammer or Flames of War or Warmahordes there's one set of rules, but with historicals, there are dozens if not hundreds of rules for periods, each with its own take on the period based on what the author thinks the period would be like and that's incredibly overwhelming for someone especially when you factor in that different groups play different rules so even if you find a group that plays a set of rules, another group may play something entirely different and you have to essentially start from scratch. The lack of standards is a big issue in the current day because people are so used to having a standard game that they can play against a variety of opponents, and you don't find that in historical gaming.
From the other side - the developer and publisher side: game stores are killing you. There is a large distribution network in the US, with places like Alliance more-or-less selling gaming to the shops. When a new Warhammer game comes out, GW calls the stockists. When a new Warlord or Fantasy Flight game comes out, Alliance rings up the stores. But Alliance doesn't want to stock 200 different little indy games - it's more profitable to just have a huge stock of Warlord and then unload it like clockwork. So they don't bother talking about the new ACW title that just released to rave reviews. They don't promote those indy games like a distributor should. And some stores won't stock anything that DOESN'T come through their distributor, because they don't want to be seen "competing with" the distributor.
There's a store near me that goes through Alliance, but can never get stock for the game that I want to play. Because Alliance hasn't restocked the game. The store could probably get a better deal directly from the publisher, and lord knows that the publisher would love to sell it to them - but they wont. So I can't get the game off the ground there.
Yep. I honestly despise the stranglehold the game store has in the US. I've seen too many games never get any traction at all because stores can't/won't stock it and therefore people don't want to know it even exists. Hell, I've seen people get openly hostile about suggesting a game that the store can't stock, calling it "stealing" from the store since you aren't buying everything there.
I envy how the UK is and some parts of the US where there are actual, honest-to-god gaming clubs that aren't bound to a game store providing space and "letting" them play games there. Otherwise, you're letting someone else dictate what you can and can't play so they have too much control.
FoW and Bolt Action (Black Powder and Hail Caesar, too) are attempts to GW-ize historical games. The companies provide bundles of stuff that help lower the research-related barriers to entry. They are more costly, often, than pure historical games and do take some liberties with how a force might have historically behaved but they also provide a basis for a community to grow with a common ground. Without community (even if your community is just one other gaming buddy who will play this stuff), there's only solo play.
Not to blow sugar up the backsides of the crew at Little Wars, but you guys are exactly what the hobby needs. Engaging, funny and (dare I say it) relatively youthful. In Australia, the typical wargamer ( especially 'historical' ) would be a sullen doctor in his 60's who would probably recoil in pain from any curious youngster who wanted to learn the ropes.
As a greying historical miniatures gamer. My experience over the year includes going to Pacificon for the first time as a know nothing 14 year old in 1978. I had a blast. I was mainly there for TSR's first west coast DnD tournament my friend was DMing for it. While not playing DnD I would wander thru the historical miniature battle hall at the Dunfey Hotel in San Mateo. I found then as I do today that most of the grey beards were very welcoming of questions and would even ask if I wanted to learn to play. That long weekend I played Napoleanics, Franco/Prussian war. Zulu, Khartoum, Micro Armor, WWI planes. I was already into history of war and had spi and ah games I had bought with my own money.
Thru the years I have played with all ages and made it a point to always welcome questions from young people and invite them to join. Because you should pay it forward. When Flames of War was moving from 1st Edition to 2nd Edition rules I volunteered to work as a free lance Editor/Proofreader and I am credited on the second edition rule book and many of the scenario books for that rule set. At that time I was playing Flames of War regularly at 2 different game stores. That is the crux of the matter. Exposure at a regular time at a place easy to find. Twice a week at two different game stores about 30 miles apart at the same time every week from open till closing time.
We grew a handful of people playing to well over 50 regulars at both stores from all ages. The thing was we were inclusive, age, sex etc did not matter. We were helpful, showing people they could play with minimal investment, helping them learn the hobby and the art of painting miniatures and making cheap and nice terrain.
So for 4 years I was helping to grow the hobby. But when I was to old and broken to continue regular play time the hobby pretty much started to die off. Why? Because nobody was being consistent. Sure they were still playing but at odd times and at home or away from the game stores. Dedication is hard to come by for people not getting paid to play.
I have been physically unable to play tabletop miniatures because of a spinal injury, just cannot lean over a table anymore.
The main problem is schools are not teaching history like it used to be taught. Wars are being taught as shameful no matter what side you were on. This is leading to the shaming of kids who are interested in history and war. But that is my opinion. I lost 5 of my 7 uncles in World War 2, My father served in WW2, Korea and Viet Nam. My family on one side were Wild Geese, kicked out of Ireland because they would not bend the knee to Protestant England and worked as Catholic Mercenaries for Spain and France in the 1600's. They came to America in 1638 and from that time onward have every generation been in the local, county, state, colonial or American armies since. Every single generation in America since the mid 1600's to this day. I served, my daughter served. Three of my siblings served.
So generationally we come to a problem. Kids are now separated from War and are taught inappropriately about war in general at the schools here in America. The complete rewriting of history at all levels of schooling is disgraceful and for me has led to the loss of historical miniature tabletop gaming, plus the big elephant in the room PC gaming has really thrown miniatures for a loop. Cost alone has made it unbearable. Should I spend $1000 for an army or get a $60 pc game? Oh its on sale on steam for $20. Yeah I know where my money goes.
So lots of reasons for the decline. Technology, social stressors, prohibitive costs and of course the time it takes to travel to, setup and then play is quite long. And finding a place to play is not easy either.
Chris
Historical wargaming is actually growing in the UK I read in Wargames Illustrated that Warlords sales have skyrocketed during lockdown I think they said they had a 300% increase in sales.
I can tell you during the lockdown, all wargames companies have increased sales by around 300%.
One thing we have done that helps against cost, COVID, and distance is playing ‘tabletop’ games online/computer. We use tabletop simulator on Steam and can still play our favorites (including Altar of Freedom!). It takes away the physical build and interaction of the traditional hobby, but that’s replaced by digital creating - and at nearly zero cost (apart from time and assuming you have a computer and internet). You can check out what it’s like with the few videos we have posted.
we have been broadcasting miniature games now for years using multiple cameras. contact me for more info
About 20 years ago one of the Historicon cons was held in MD. Naturally Games Workshop showed up in force. The outcry from the "Historical" gamers was insane. (self disclosure I play GW & historical). I hear everything from the kids are not serious gamers, 40K is not a "Real" wargame, my games are not kid friendly. The outrage went on and on.
I spoke to several board members about this and pointed out the age issue way back then. My point was if we don't find a way to expose the younger gamers the hobby will die out. Almost to a person the response was the same: "These kids are not serious gamers and not real history buffs like us."
What no one would say: "GW came in here and kicked our asses with games, displays and support." GW brought in like 20 tables and people to run and demo every game. And they really made Historical manufactures look 2nd rate. Since then GW has introduced more games that appeal to older players while strengthening its younger base.
Final thoughts: I live in Austin TX. There is virtually no historical gaming left here. We are down to a handfull of cons between Dallas Austin and San Antonio. When you hit the dear halls people are just dumping there FoW stuff and other historicals. We had a big chance 20 years ago to start bringing in young players and we didn't. Now there is now way to compete against video games and GW is a leader in tat area too.
Sadly, it is dependent on region/area where any table top war game is being played. But historical games have a hard time in general competing with the more visually entertaining games that GW and others put out.
I see fewer people interested in competitive gaming, but then I see fewer people, period. I agree with the poster who noted that its a deep dive into historical gaming of all types. It is difficult to get all the things, in hand all at once to both provide a game and matchups and rules. Triangulating all that is the hardest part. Local groups that bring all sides to the table have the best result.
If anything our local club is seeing an influx of WW2 players. A lot of folks have moved from games like 40k using Bolt Action as a gateway and then into the more historical WW2 games beyond that. Certainly in the UK historical gaming, especially WW2 is very popular.
Glad to see you guys are back. Interesting to see you guys are masking up to get rid of this pandemic. I do like wargaming via board games or minatures.
Here in Ireland the move from Historical to Fantasy changed everything. The main reason is the rules for Historical wargaming are more demanding than Fantasy if you just want to 'play'. Boxes with everything in them you need to get going, along with satisfying accessible for everyone rules would do wonders.
I have painted, built, converted, read and played war games and RPG for the last 40 years and have no intention of stopping. Keep up the good work as really enjoying the feed. Could you please tell me where I can get my hands on those Perspex octagons used in the Battle of Trafalgar game?
What a gamer needs is a lot of space: for the game table, library. and a workshop. Most young ppl live in an apartment the size of a portapottie.
There is the basic fact that a miniature while nice to look at has less information than a cardboard counter. Firepower, range, movement etc are printed on the chip. A miniature requires the player to memorize all these features.
I've been gaming for close to 60 years, exclusively BOARDGAMING. I'm not surprised that MINIATURES gaming is sliding downhill. I, myself, made several attempts at miniatures, and frankly found the entire exercise to be a pain in the ass (your mileage may vary). To play with miniatures, you need to buy a variety of miniatures, depending on what you are simulating, which means a never-ending increase in spending. At the club I was a member at, one member had an entire wall filled with his collection of WWII infantry, tanks, artillery, other vehicles, WWI infantry, over 1000 WWII ships of US/British/Japanese/Italian/etc. nationality. And then there was the Napoleonic and Fantasy stuff. If you don't enjoy painting miniatures, or simply suck at it, there's the additional expense of paying someone to do it for you.
Contrast this with boardgaming, which pretty much gives you everything you need IN THE BOX. You may end up purchasing additional "modules" for a certain boardgame, but once you open the box and read the rules, you're all set.
The BOARDGAMING wing of the hobby is certainly very healthy. Just look at all the games on the shelves behind the UA-camrs who vlog game reviews.
I'm 21, and I've been interested in historicals for a while now. For me, the biggest barrier to entry is being able to get everything in one--it's nice to buy a box with all the guys I need, and be able to take it off my shelf whenever I wanna play a game. Between that and cost, Warlord Games is kind of the only major historical wargaming company on my radar.
There are wargames in a box available (rules and figures). Just more limited than free choice.
I am 31, and I got into historical wargamming 5 years ago. And in my humble opinion it was the lack of exposure to companies that made historic figures what stopped me doing this earlier. When I played warhammer fantasy I liked dwarfs, and I really didn't like the magic stuff, that is why I chose them. I liked the vibe of infantry soldiers, movement and tactics and also I always liked the dwarfs from Lord Of The Rings. But I prefer history over fantasy ans sci-fi. When I saw in warhammer that things got more arcady I lost any interest left and I was alredy doing historic. I do medieval a lot. I have dark ages, feudal age and late medieval. But I don't have any fellow gammer that plays historic in my town...So, I am more into painting them and such. Maybe some day I convince some lost soul to join the dark side of gamming.
I’m 50! I used to play table top historicals in the late 90’s. In Montreal there used to be a great hobby association called Montreal Wargamers. Today I want to go back to play tabletop battles, only problem, cost of miniatures and find players to play and the time to play and paint.
Teaching history is changing in schools and colleges, if gaming can be incorporated to help explain battles it will engender interest.
We have seen an increase in interest in esoteric historical periods