Hello all! This has got FAR more views than I expected, wow! Thank you so much for the many kind, thoughtful comments. This was my first video essay, and it's a bit weak in places. I've made a follow-up video which addresses some of these topics in more detail: ua-cam.com/video/x_zIRxLp_-4/v-deo.html In the meanwhile, here are a few corrections/clarifications: At 38:54, I've cut a section from the original video about Katee Robert's Neon Gods. I wanted to discuss how Greek mythology can be used as a selling point for books which can't really justify themselves as mythic retellings. However, for a good portion of that section I was pedantically nitpicking the world building and plot, which is a totally unfair way to judge a book which is a loose reimagining, not a retelling. In terms of the final section of the video, I want to be clear: non-Greek writers are (at least in my opinion) well within their right to write about Greek mythology. However, I believe myths should be retold with due respect and care, especially in light of Greece’s history of colonisation. It disappoints me that many recent retellings market themselves as fixing, amending, or correcting myths (‘telling the untold story of so-and-so…’), and yet often seem to misunderstand or misrepresent their source material. Myths are wonderful, magical pieces of history, and to retell them takes not only skill as a storyteller, but respect and curiosity as a historian. My concern is not that Greek myths are being widely retold, but that they’re being retold in a manner that diminishes the complexity and often strong female voices within the original myths. The marketing of many of these retellings depends on framing the women of the original myths as ‘silenced,’ which is often just not true, and seems a particular shame given these novels are introducing a wide new readership to Greek myths. As a writer, I firmly believe that questioning our right to tell certain kinds of stories leads to a deeper, richer and more complex engagement with our subject matter - and so I don’t raise Greece’s more recent history as a reason not to retell Greek mythology, but as a reminder that these myths arrive to us with the complex baggage of history, adding another layer of complexity when retelling them. (The perfectionist in me wants to take this video down, as I don't feel I expressed this point well enough. For now I'll keep it up, but thank you for reading this!)
I beg you to read “ENNEAD” a Korean graphic novel. Very well-written, complex storyline, engaging plots and twists, range of layered characters that are distinct from each other. I highly recommend it. The story is about Egyptian gods. I won’t say it’s canonically accurate, but is very well made, has its own entirely different intriguing story. But it’s a super angsty story with many trigger warnings. Incest, violence, rape etc.
I'll just drop here that Wiedzmin, the book series that Netflix adapted into their Witcher show, was ripe with literary tropes, many of which were from ancient Greek mythology. It's obvious from the show that they had no idea whatsoever (and didn't care), so what we get is occasional superficial likeness with nonsensical symbolistic relationships.
That was a very mature thing for you to do. But I still feel as if the claims of cultural appropriation were a bit of a stretch. Cultural misinformation at its worst, but I don't see any of these authors claiming to be Greek or that Greek culture is their own. And many Greek retellings are just smutty literature meant for fun, not meant to be taken seriously. I loved your takes on the performative feminism of these novels. I feel like most media is guilty of that nowadays. This was a good video, but please, in the future, don't throw buzzword terms around so loosely!!!
...and maybe also changing the names of their characters and trying to create their own story instead of living off the fame of something someone came up with thousands of years ago. I mean, it's like Disney reshooting its own films. And even Disney took Hamlet and called him Simba, lol.
@@WowUsernameAvailable remember when Simba went insane and Nala drowned herself and Scar felt guilty about murdering his brother and the hyenas didn't exist it's just like Hamlet unless those things didn't happen in the Lion King but those things did happen right because if it isn't about ghost dad telling him to kill beginning Simba's descent into madness it isn't Hamlet
@@schwarzflammenkaiser2347 Yeah, I fucking hate that dude. After having to read the Illiad for a course, I wound up summarizing everything in the most mundane way possible to make it easy to fit in my brain - and I literally referred to Paris as "fuck boy" and "thinks with his crotch".
@schwarzflammenkaiser2347 he could've had any women in the entire Hellonistic world and he picks the one who he knows is already married. That is a dick move in any part of history.
Later Greek writers blamed Helen. They had her willingly run off with Paris, and I saw at least one peplum movie that re-cast her marriage to Agamemnon as an unhappy one. And modern movies make the relationship between Achilles and his _war captive/sex slave_ Briseis into a romantic one. Hell, no. She was war booty just like any gold, silver, or other prizes he had taken on the battlefield.
Why can’t people write about Eros and Psyche if they want a ‘feminist’ retelling? This girl literally goes on many trails and tribulations to win her husband back.
CS Lewis's Til We Have Faces is about cupid and psyche from the perspective of psyche's protective older sister. it's a lovely read and the narrator is a very compelling female character who challenges the gender norms of their society
Demeter is so misunderstood by modern audiences! Like, how ironic is it that so called feminist retellings villainise the woman who challenges the normality of women being kidnapped to become unwilling brides??
I think it's because Demeter is a character who is a mother and frankly a lot of feminists don't like motherhood. The dislike of the traditionally feminine extends to dismissing the concerns/worries of those women.
This is what pains me the most in all this; imagine your daughter is kidnapped, forced to live with the man that took her, you can't even see her, no one wants to help you, then everyone calls you a helicopter parent. Demeter is a mother fighting alone to save her daughter. Making her the villain is the biggest red flag for me
If they REALLY want a modern feminist story about the Hymn to Demeter? Make it Taken. It's a mom going after her kidnapped daughter, and nothing is going to stand in her way. She has a particular set of skills. Male rage over children is lionized but female rage? I haven't seen it that often, and even more rarely done decently.
This is why I love Theia Mania (on Tumblr) because the problematic behaviors are challenged and Demeter is portrayed as a mother in distress who spent all her life trying to shield her daughter from the awfulness of the gods - only to loose her to one of said gods. Granted, the less awfull of the lot but still, kidnapped and stuff. And even Persephone, head over heels for Hades in the first place in this comic, challenges Hades' behavior of kidnapping and stuff. It is not a "modern retelling" tho because it happens all during Ancient Greece but the point of view on the story is modern.
My least favorite thing about any and every “retelling” of Persephone and Hades is that they do not think about why someone would make this a myth. They do not think about death taking a daughter too young and a mother so furious she would rage against nature itself to get back the daughter she lost. They do not think about death knowing this young innocent girl should not be here so death will try to treat her as kindly as they can. They think only of the stories but not of the domains that these myths represent. The experiences that had to be for these stories to be here. Edit, for all the arguments in the replies: I want it to be considered not that there is a reason for a myth, but there is an experience to it. If a civilization wanted an explanation for the seasons, the story would start and end with “Persephone comes from the underworld for six months to give us spring and summer.” However, that is not the case. There is, instead, an entire story to be heard. A story that had to come from an experience. What that experience was is unclear, but nobody starts to write about a mother losing her daughter to something or someone just to explain away summer. I am not telling you to believe what I think, but I am asking you to consider that somebody once lived this. Somebody had a story that needed to be heard, and it was not just about the seasons. Please, wonder if the explanation was not a cause for the story, but perhaps an effect of it. I didn’t realize this would get so much attention, otherwise I would have been more eloquent with my words the first time around. My b gang
I'm pretty sure it is supposed to imply the reincarnation of the soul or literally show the seasons, rather than have a telenovela-like plot be the focus.
The women in Greek myth did have voices. Their voices did not match our modern standards for feminism, but they were absolutely there, and by pretending they didn’t exist, and writing books that give these women new voices, we have been the ones to silence them.
i feel like the reason we see so many greek myth retelling novels these days is because a lot of the people who were kids when Percy Jackson came out are now adults and seem to want a "grown up" version of these books in a sense, but I feel like Percy Jackson worked not only because it was so novel but because it didn't directly focus on the gods themselves and instead their demigod children, which allowed the author to maybe explore some themes without completely changing what the myths were about, as you mention.
i agree! and even though it was targeted towards children, riordan was able to include the complexities of the gods and explore the themes of these stories.
I think classics are just a really popular subject in schools and when mostly women engage in that field and there’s little female protagonists they see a hole to fill. The resulting portrayals then come from a deep understanding of classic literature but a lacking of feminist / intersectional perspectives.
@@Hyuckbinchrightttt! People always seem to forget that the author Rick Riodian was a teacher who taught mythology as a part of his curriculum and I vividly remember learning about Egyptian and Greek history and mythology in primary school long before Percy Jackson was ever a thing. And retellings have long been popular
Yeah, but from a modern Greek perspective I can't stress enough how stupid the premise of Percy Jackson is. Why on earth would you portray *Ancient Greek* gods in an American context other than because of your own fantasies of American exceptionalism? Would y'all eat it up if Chinese gods and their offspring suddenly materialised in England to go on their merry little adventures?
He states that the gods are in America because the USA is the world Superpower and that the gods are drawn to these places. If it was set in the Victorian era they would be in England or France. It is still very USA focused.
Fantastic video, I also think that part of why all the new Hades/Persephone “love story” retellings miss the point is because for a long time in classical Greece (mainly Athens I think?) girls were often married off very young to older men, something we would consider to be child marriage today. The grief and pain that Demeter felt from having her daughter taken away from her was real to ancient mothers. In erasing her story, it erases the trauma and real story of these ancient mothers and daughters.
I hate the "retellings". Lore Olympus is the biggest offender off the top of my head. Not the only one. It's not a happy story and trying to make it a love story.....that's not feminist. What would be is making more explicit the themes of abuse and maybe even getting her out of there. But nah there's not a lick of critical thought to go with the creativity.
Demeter is a far more interesting character, and yet so many modern stories seek to portray the love story between Persephone and hades and end up turning her into a monster
If anything, the best retellings I’ve seen of this story was two theoretical storylines. One was an idea to have a modern AU and the winter Demeter blankets the world in is her being a mother on a warpath, searching for her daughter, brandishing a shotgun. (Sadly I can’t remember the op, but I distinctly remember that it was posted on tumblr) The other was the myth continuing as usual, but Hades realizes how scared Persephone is. So he doesn’t force her into anything she doesn’t want to do, and warns her not to eat anything under any circumstances. He also accommodates her with a patch of land to vegetate and care for until he can convince Zeus to return the bride price he gave for her hand (this was common in Ancient Greece and many cultures; a reverse-dowry, if you will). Side note: the op also felt bad for Hermes having to go back and forth from the Underworld and Olympus with this cus he’s both a massager and psychopomp, and Zeus is very stubborn. Let the poor god rest. This ultimately leaves Hades hands tied where Persephone could theoretically go back, but can’t because of Zeus’s stubbornness in not returning the bride price. Meaning that she *technically* isn’t wanted back in the eyes of ancient society. She notices the frequency of Hermes’ visits and realizes the issue of the bride price was the reason, and she becomes very upset at this. Hades then feels more remorse and comforts her, promising to not force her to do anything she doesn’t want to do while apologizing for the situation. Over the course of her underground stay, she creates the beginnings of her garden and gets to know Hades more. She learns of the advice Zeus gave Hades and how remorseful he feels surrounding the situation, along with his frustration with himself that he sought out advice from Zeus of all the gods, and Persephone grows to forgive him. Eventually they do fall in love and Persephone requests they get married. Soon after that though, The Underworld is swamped with new shades and it’s all hands on deck for the psychopomps. Hades is very confused and stressed, but Persephone notices that almost every shade passed from starvation or illness and is like “oh no… it’s my mom. My mom is freaking PISSED.” So the couple starts to deliberate on what to do while Hades eats a meal prepared by Persephone. But while she’s absent-minded and helping Hades figure out what to do, she accidentally eats a pomegranate seed. The pair realize what happened and start freaking out. But regardless Hades goes to Olympus to explain the situation and tells the gods that Persephone would have joined them if not for the misfortune of eating the pomegranate seed. So Zeus makes a mighty decree to partly free Persephone from her plight, and she will return to the surface for two thirds of the year, but stay in the Underworld the last third because she is now bonded to the land of the dead. Then Demeter and Persephone reunite and spring returns.
exactly this! the abduction of persephone is a story of mother-daughter love, not romantic love. i'm not entirely opposed to retellings that make it so that persephone goes with hades willingly but it bothers me when people insist that that's the true or "original" version of the myth (there's no such thing when it comes to oral tradition). i also don't like when people insist that this brand of retelling is feminist because how is sacrificing the mother-daughter relationship in favor of a hetero romance feminist? is it just because making persephone in love with hades suddenly makes her not a victim anymore? but then why can't a story about a victim be feminist and empowering too? hmmm
Winter Harvest by Ioanna Papadopoulou is a retelling of Hades and Persephone from Demeter's perspective and very faithfully follows the Homeric telling. It is also written by a Greek author, and hasn't seen nearly enough love. Recommending another retelling may be missing the point of the video, but I wanted to put this one out there.
@catherine8889 I honestly think where a lot of people become cross with Demeter is the fact that she punishes all of humanity with winter because her daughter was taken to the Underworld- like humans had any say in that, I mean come on that is low-key bitchy.
@@annabaker8137and yet they care half as much seeing the wrath of other gods. Oh no, a goddess (a literal representation of the earth and seasons) caused the seasons. It’s almost like Greek mythology has symbolic explanations to explain things they couldn’t explain. There’s no way I’m calling a grieving mother ‘bitchy’ when her famine is what made Zeus listen in the first place.
As a Greek female writer who's tired of these retellings for the reasons you mentioned, thank you! I know the Western market won't accept retellings from my perspective but I'm so relieved videos like yours exist! Hopefully there will soon be more!
@@spacejunk2186 This is an important question but Anglophone writers get the spot from Greek writers with very bad and mediocre works all the time. So it's clearly not the quality the Anglophone presses are interested in, but the lens through which the story is said.
I’ll always choose a story by a greek woman than a retelling of my favourite greek myth. I know I am not the majority, but I also know I am not alone in that.
As a Greek male amateur writer I'm struggling with the same thoughts as well. Perhaps it's because of the spit I have towards Harvard but I'll say to you sis to not give up. Yes, we will never get the spotlight as great as our books may be, but then again, why should we write them too? I'm sure there're a lot of people out there who want to hear our voice as well. P.S. seeing your comment made me understand that I'm not alone in this. Thank you, and I wish you the best.
@@spyroscheliotis5366 Thank you and wishing you the best, Spyro! It's tough pouring years into writing while seeing the disappointing state of the dominant publishing industry. But we should be continue writing anyways because someone will hear our voices eventually!
If you want to do a romance with Persephone, why not have it be between Persephone and Eurydice? Like, have Persephone be the unwilling queen of the underworld, and Eurydice the shade who clings to her identity and catches the eye of Persephone, going from acquaintances to friends and eventually to lovers. Maybe reimagine Orpheus as the deluded ex/stalker, who wants to drag Eurydice back to the land of the living, in spite of her wishes. Maybe take inspiration from IRL Orphic mysticism, and having Eurydice maintain her identity through repeated cycles of reincarnation; by drinking from Memnosyne, she is able to retain her memories of past lifetimes each time she is reborn, but she cannot escape the cycle of death and rebirth (at least, not until the finale of the story). But every time she dies, she returns to the underworld, and she can be reunited with Persephone until the pull of rebirth becomes too strong to resist. Meanwhile, Persephone, trapped in a horrifying marriage with her abductor, is plotting to liberate herself. Maybe even conspiring with Hecate to usurp Hades place.
Pershephone and Adonis, maybe? As for hades, i get he was much better that 90% male gods , but point is, that is low bar. And persephone is still his niece.
"The women who are truly silenced are the ones we don't hear about." Wow. That hit hard! Fantastic video, I'm so glad the youtube algorithm actually recommended me something good!!!
Yeah, I really liked that part. And those voices who are actively being forgotten as well, I would argue. Such as Native women, or even the Palestinians.
A club at my school managed to organize a video call with Madeline Miller where we could ask her questions. She explained that, when reading the Odyssey, she was a little disappointed by how Circe was only in a few chapters, so in her book Circe she made it so that Odysseus was only around for a few chapters. You mentioning how most of the retellings are the women talking about the men in the myths reminded me of how all i can remember about the book Circe is her puttering about the small island she's exiled to and her reactions to visitors and the world outside of here changing. The book is almost entirely about her solitude and I kind of like that a lot
Honestly the point of view of an isolated exile whose only link to the outside world is people who wind up on her island (and who aren't always welcome there) trying to make sense of a changing world she can only glimpse from biased viewpoints sounds like a whole genre of storytelling I didn't know I wanted to exist, like Rashomon was a kind of movie I didn't know I wanted more of.
Miller is the only "modern reteller" who I find myself enjoying reading and I think it is because she understands exactly why the original myth were told and utilises that in her modernization
Peraephone is a godess. Meaning she is immortal and doesnt need to eat. Therefore she ate those pomegranates willingly. Therefore she wanted to stay with hades.
@@LynnHermione just because gods don't need to eat doesn't mean they don't feel the urge to and don't get hungry. Or simply eat for the pleasure. Immortality doesn't mean you're never hungry or thirsty. And there's plenty of stories of the gods dining and drinking. So miss me with that bullcrap.
Still a Villain (for the purposes of this story) as she knowingly killed thousands of people by withholding spring. She had legitimate reasons to be upset of course, but "my daughter was kidnapped, so I'll kill most of the worlds population," is not the thought process of a hero.
Dude, why must I reapet this. SHE IS A VILLIAN OR HERO BASED ON THE SPECIFIC MYTH. Theres soooooo many versions. Theres no reason to feel sad if they make her the villian or make hades a hero. Bruh, its a myth
thank you for talking about how modern adaptations of the persephone myth so often villanize demeter almost to prop up hades and it baffles me that there's no 'feminist retelling' of demeter's fight to get her daughter back. what makes this story different from all the others that are being retold?
exactly. it makes for a good story, sure, but I cannot see the groundbreaking feminism in a romance about a powerful, strong man who allows the innocent, sheltered girl her freedom.
@@toingingrn They keep using that word "feminism" I don't think they know what it means... Feminism should be about women working together and for each other, to challenge the power systems into bettering life of womankind. Demeter is much more feminist character, she froze the world in her feminine rage a la "we shall all starve then", until Hades was pressure cooked to let mother and daughter reunite. It's beautiful. The grief, the mother-daughter love and twisting Hades by the balls until he complied, now that's the retelling I'd like to see. Demeter is very sympathetic so it's heartbreaking how zero empathy for this woman is framed as "feminist". She's not "helicopter Karen", she put Hades' male entitlement on a blast. No one seems to wonder what Persephone truly wanted and she was quite happy with her mother before, albeit accepting her torn fate afterwards. But it was not her who initiated being put in a basement of the world and her mother fought tooth and nail for her right to see the sun and flowers again. And she succeeded. Demeter slander sickens me, she was a fantastic mother who loved her daughter and wanted the best for her. Hades might be better than most male gods, but I'm so tired of worshipping the bare minimum. "Not as big of a jerk as he could've been" in not good enough reason to romanticize him THIS MUCH. I wouldn't call drool fiction about him "feminist" in any way, it's just meaningless buzz word in these circles at this point. Just write your own 50 shades and leave "feminism" and Greek mythos out of it, bastardizing them both.
I saw a modern retelling of the myth the other day that might fit with that (from the blurb, at least). It's called Fruit of the Dead by Rachel Lyon and the summary looked pretty promising
on the one hand, there are ancient texts that show that Persephone knew what the pomegranate seeds meant and ate them willingly. on the other hand, outside of text, Persephone is likely a little bild older as an entity than Demeter. They were not always mother and daughter. I think many authors include metacontext into their stories. And another point, of course, is that everyone roots for the underdog and Hades - aside from kidnapping Kore which is a younger myth adapted from a much more ancient Sumerian myth - who is comparably nice within the realm of Greek gods, is as underdog as it gets. He is not evil, he is not god of death, he just had to administrate the underworld.
@@InternetNonsense 100% this. If they want an actual feminist icon man with depth, Ares is a much better candidate. He's been SEVERELY misrepresented. Aphrodite didn't want to marry Heph but was forced to. Ares actually loved her and he was one of the only gods to NEVER force himself on a woman, especially Aphrodite, which, as the goddess of love and beauty says a fuckkkking lot. He guarded his daughters fiercely too, risking Tartarus for killing an assaulter. The dude is only ever made a villain because his part of war shows the brutality and the gore of it. So of course Athena wins every time and people like to say that makes him evil or bad to some degree, those people completely miss the point. Minus those soldiers who respect the truth of war for being ugly and not just glory and victory. It costs. And a lot of soldiers respected that truth. He also greatly loved and valued the Amazons, made up entirely of women warriors (some mythical race but some suspected to actually be a group of genuine women warriors from the east depending on sources). Could he still be cruel? Of course, every god is, but he respected strength, he wouldn't hold your hand but if you needed strength he was absolutely the god to turn to with your fury for injustice. And he actually respected you for it.
“Though the Greek society was intensely patriarchal, the myths they told centered female characters time and again. It's one of the great dichotomies that lies at the heart of Hellenic history. If women in Ancient Greece were such as marginalized class of people ,why did powerful women figure so large in myth?" "My worry is that in this flood of mythic retellings, they add nothing substantive but rely on name recognition alone." When a video essay is worded and hit so well it almost made me shed a tear. Thank you for this.
Tbf that’s every society that has polytheistic beliefs Pagan Arabs believed angels were gods daughters but they themselves would bury baby girls alive Same to Christian’s saying god has a son but considers it filthy for high ranked religious figures to have families J 3 W S believe theyre above god in their scripture but are the first to want help (and then go back to believing themselves above it all)
I don’t think the first one is a completely fair question. The status of women depended on the city-state. In Athens, women stayed home and seldom left the house. One philosopher said the greatest honor for a woman is to not be talked about good or bad by her husband. In Sparta, women were encouraged to be as active as men and they could even vote. Granted men were still seen as superior. The fact that powerful Greek goddesses exist doesn’t change the fact that human Greek women were discriminated against
@@pisces2569 Which is such an anachronistic way to look at history. It was not seen by those women as being discriminated against, it was how society was organised. Their lives might not have been public, but they would have wielded power in the household, behind closed doors. Where you go wrong, is that you interpret the question as only concerning Greek goddesses, when the question is clearly phrased as 'Greek women:' Penelope, Medea, Lysistrata. The presenter even mentions a few women by name who were clearly not portrayed as goddesses in the myths and stories.
@@ihintzablue686 Yeah, that reminded me of the first time I read a Romantic novel written by a female writer. For much of the story, it felt the same as other 19th Century novels, but then, at a certain point and with the same ease, the novel began to narrate a feast being organized, the small negociations, bribes, intrigues and infights of the female love interest as she organizaded the event, how she had to deal with all the sellers, bankers, seamstresses, the wine seller, chose who to invite or not invite, considerations on season, having to negotiate the cold storing of edible central pieces and beer in a tropical land without eleticity, what furnitures had to be moved to storage and why, what pianist to hire, how to organize the flow of music and food, organize the crossing of the mountain passes with guides and peace keepers for guests and suppliers... Prior to that, all I knew of organizing a wedding feast in the 19th Century was what male writers, who wrote the novels I had previously read, would: "They invited me, I went, I heard this song, that poem was read and then I talked with X, danced and went home". At most the description of how someone was dressed or some thematically relevant object, like saying there was an undescript piano, vases and statues and a list of book titles on the shelves to showcase a refined home. Parties sprang from the ground, with just a hard cut. Reading Júlia Lopes de Almeida was the first I noticed what a weird blind spot on the daily lives of the time I had until then, the small battles and domestic policies, WHAT they ate, how it was transported, prepared, stored, kept cold and served and all that my 21st mind takes for a given. It was, simultaneously, eye opening and strangely... relatable. Put a pause on all the twists and romantic mush to have a fight between the beer seller and the baker for cold storage demanding immediate solution in the middle of a tropical Summer suddenly humanized the whole deal, if it makes sense. And it made me wonder just HOW MUCH of the past we ignore just because those who wrote the stories that survived, being human, had NO CLUE on what was happening to keep their routines going or how interesting certain aspects of life they didn't live through actually were.
7:35 the idea of Penelope writing to Odysseus actually dates back to the Roman author Ovid, who wrote the Epistulae Heroidum. A collection of fictive letters from mythical heroines to their lovers... the idea of retelling well-known myths through female perspectives (written by a male author, i know, but it's a start) already existed in antiquity.
It's an interesting idea, but poorly executed by the writer. Odysseus was trapped on an island with only Calypso and Circe, so how would the bards know of something like that? Odysseus was never intentionally unfaithful ... he was told by Hermes to sleep with Circe in exchange for turning his men back from pigs, and Calypso clearly SA him, since he was weeping on the shores of the island afterwards.
I'm only 15 minutes in and I already find it baffling that a book called A Thousand Ships isn't actually CENTERED on Helen of Troy. Like...why would you not????
Because it doesn’t really centre anyone. It goes round and round all the women, except Helen. I enjoyed it, although the points of the video aren’t necessarily wrong.
I haven’t read it but I wish it did include Helen’s perspective. Her story is so inconsistent with no one set canon so there’s so much room to play around and get creative
One reason I adore the Hades and Persephone (original) myth is because it can, and should be, interpreted as unfair. Hades took a daughter away from her mother, just how death does in the real world, suddenly and without explanation. It's a story about a mother's grief, and the lengths she will go to to get her child back. It's not a booktok forbidden romance, and I feel like the themes being ignored so blatantly (especially by Lore Olympus, which as a Greek, apparently my opinion toward it doesn't matter) is a real shame. Anyway, thanks for such a great video and thank you for speaking out about this issue as it's becoming more and more prominent. Excellent essay!
Whilst I like your sentiment I disagree with your symbol interpretations. It is unfair because Zeus arranged the marriage of Hades and Persphone after Hades asked. And Hades isn't the god of death as there is a separate god for death so I wouldn't say Hades represents death The story I think is more to reflect how Greek women were forced into marriage or kidnapped and their mothers were left alone It's a nice sentiment but Hades never is a representation for death and I wouldn't equate an arranged marriage as the same as death unfairly snatching away your child. If that was the case it would be like if death spoke to god and asked for his permission for you to die
@@SandDanGlockta Hey, I'm Greek and we actually study the meaning behind our ancient myths in school and this is how it is widely interpreted. Our ancestors closely connected Hades with death itself, which is why he was a lesser worshipped entity.
@@iiredgm Oh perfect! From your perspective what role does Thanatos serve since he is the personification of Death? If you are taught in school that Hades is closely connected with death (which he is and I was not trying to imply he isn't, just that there is literally another character that personifies death), what role does Thanatos play if not death itself? This isn't an attack btw, neither was my first comment. I am not saying you are wrong, I am just disagreeing with how you have interpreted the symbols. It's opinion and it's interpretive. Greek Mythology is taught professionally around the world and we all tend to gravitate to the opinions and interpretations of those who taught it to us. Being Greek and taught in this does make you have a keen insight that my western professors didn't have of course! But also doesn't mean every Greek person is above western professors and their views are the 'only, correct' interpretation. A random Greek person's opinion, who hasn't studied the primary sources, isn't autiomatically more correct than an American, Britain or Australian who has studied the texts all their life. For instance, I am a Australian Historian, but I am not an Australian History Historian. I know very very little about my ancestors history but just because I am Australian I wouldn't say that an American who has studied my ancestors' history all their life shouldn't have opinions or interpretations different from mine just because I was born there. I am not saying you are this kind of person, you clearly are educated in this subject, I am just saying that being Greek doesn't make someone the utmost authority on Greek Mythology. That dangerous thinking leads to the hellscape that is American's interpretation and obsession with their own history. I can't tell you how many people have told me I am wrong about actual events in American history despite my years of study because they were born there and not having studied their own history. It also gatekeeps the wonderful history and culture that international folk want to learn more about. If we all said no one can have an opinion on our culture we come from because they aren't from there, then why bother learning about other people's cultures? Again not saying this is what you're saying but just needed to get that out there. But all that aside, since you have an insight into the culture given that you are Greek which I don't/never can have I am very interested in your point of view on the role Thanatos played. How did he come up in conversations and discussions around death if you were taught that your ancestors closely related Hades to death as opposed to Thanatos?
I disagree, theres too many variantions of the myth to say with absolute certainty that it was about a women losing her daughter. Frankly I wish people accepted the different variantions with open arms. Hades, dimitri can be heros or villians based on the myth they are in.
@@SandDanGlockta Okay so I'm not Greek, but I do follow Hellenism and while iiredgm probably has much more insight than I do, think of it this way: There are gods of rain, there are gods of wind. But Zeus is the god of thunder and lighting and the ruler of the skies. So one can view Zeus as that representative of the skies and storms, especially thunderstorms. That's kind of how Hades is viewed. Yes, there is Death incarnate (Thanatos), but Hades rules the domain Death resides in. Death is the messenger, Hades is the ruler. Many gods have power over domains that coincide with other gods. One can pray to Artemis during a full moon, but they can also pray to Hypnos (Sleep incarnate) during a full moon as well, for both have a connection to the moon. You are getting really defensive about your misunderstandings of Greek legends
Hey, Greek writer here. Thanks so much for articulating a feeling many writers over here have about retellings and our country's colonization. More and more we are becoming a cultural icon that people only perceive as being in the past, with modern Greece being remembered only when people come here for tourism in the summer.
man if you even ask half of our compatriots if they know about our colonization they will say no. They truly be buying the story we were fed. People don't even know about Cypriot colonization and the execution of students protesting it. Insane.
Because Hades is a tumblr sexy man. He is dark, brooding, mysterious, emotionally distant, vaguely goth, probably tall and skinny. Like hades would just be your local hipster goth sadboi that’s somehow the king of the underworld. Don’t get me wrong I like Hades but the Persephone/hades story is popular because it’s hits the lord Byronic sadboi tropes like a wrecking ball. It’s the same reason Loki is popular, or why Draco Malfoy and Snape are popular.
Yessss call them out. It's not bad to have a type, but I can't stand that people pretend that this VERY obvious archetype has nothing to do with their choices. Why do they lie to themselves lol. "I just think they're interesting portrayals" like girl if I lined up all your interesting portrayals it'd look like a family tree, be so for real.
@@esverker7018 Because people don't like to realize that they are terrible people with shitty tastes. I mean most of what we do in general is for that purpose.
Penelope hearing a 100% accurate retelling of Odysseus' travels undermines so much of her character and of the Odyssey itself. Most people when asked about the Odyssey could maybe tell you maybe about the cyclops, lotus eaters, the underworld and such. Those are the juicy bits, the actiony stuff that ends up in most adaptations. I was among most people thinking those juicy bits took up the majority of the story, with Odysseus reclaiming his throne as an afterthought. In reality all those iconic scenes are flashbacks near the middle, character backstory to explain how Odysseus got to where he is. The Odyssey spends the bulk of its time on Ithaca, it's more a political drama than anything and Penelope is at the center of it all. The burden she bears is that she gets to decide who the king of Ithaca will be. If she remarries than that man will be king, her son will be killed, Odysseus' legacy will be destroyed, and she loses any power she once wielded. If a man comes to Ithaca claiming to be Odysseus there is an immense amount of pressure on her to make sure it's really him. For her to falsely recognize an imposter would be just as perilous as giving the throne to one of the suitors. The fact that she truly does not know what happened to Odysseus and cannot know for certain if the mysterious stranger who arrives in the palace is him drives the tension for the third act. For her to hear what her husband is up to as it is happening flies in the face of all of this. The heart of the story is lost for the sake of modern commentary.
This got me too, I always thought the real strength of Penelope comes from the fact that she has no idea where her husband is anymore but remains faithful anyway, stalling for literal decades to keep herself and her son safe and hoping for his return. Even knowing he is alive at any point completely undermines the dynamic of mutual faith and loyalty, and shifts it to one of patience. It’s still powerful, I suppose, but it lacks the punch that the idea of waiting for someone WITHOUT knowing they’re alive has.
@@willmungas8964 Also, doesn't Penelope remaining faithful despite not knowing whether Odysseus is alive or dead also parallel the situation Odysseus himself is introduced in, with him having been on Calypso's island for about a decade but constantly remaining faithful to Penelope even if he sincerely believes he might never see his wife and son again? (Which I'd argue is also a perilous situation in its own right, since Calypso is a goddess, and by this point in the story Odysseus knows full well what a pissed-off deity is capable of.) That could be a modern perspective on the structure of the epic, rather than something intended by the Odyssey's ancient authors and editors, but I still noticed it when reading and I find it kind of neat.
btw i never understood this, why wouldnt she recognise her own husband? Even if many years passed, unless he got his face disfigured in war, people dont really change that much.
This is a fabulous video essay, and it PERFECTLY sums up my problems with this entire "feminist" subgenre of myth retellings. I remember being pleasantly surprised by the amount of voice female characters had in the myths proper, such as Calypso calling out the double standard of goddesses not being able to take mortal lovers, or Circe being a morally ambiguous character who is both harmful and helpful, or Helen chewing out Aphrodite, or Clytemnestra being very vocal even after her death. Then there's the character assassination! It's not just Demeter, Athena is dragged through the mud in order to make Medusa look sympathetic. Medusa's sympathetic backstory only comes from one line in Ovid. She's become a symbol of SA victims, but the reason Perseus kills her isn't to win glory for himself, it's to prevent his mother from being SA'd by a powerful man. Also, it's incredibly rare to find accurate portrayals of polytheism in fiction. I loved The Song of Achilles, but I still haven't read Circe because it's mostly about how awful the gods are. The gods are too often portrayed as fickle and petty at best, downright tyrannical at worst, which isn't really how they were regarded within the context of Ancient Greek religion. It all rings so hollow.
I 100% agree with you, that's exactly what goes on in a lot of these retellings, 'character assassination'! I recently read a Greek retelling that featured Hera and they completely erased character/mythical identity in order to make readers sympathetic to her.
LITERALLY! Yesterday I was so mad because I watched a big youtuber’s video on Athena and her whole takeaway of her was that she was not “a girl’s girl” and a “pick me” all based on Ovid’s Medusa, and because she sided with Perseus and Odysseus, like seriously?! Way of oversimplifying a complex mythic character on completely arbitrary terms LOL Hate when people with huge audiences like that use their voices to paint their biased views as truth. And that seems to have sprung (or the other way around, is a symptom of) a lot of hate and othering of gender nonconforming women and afab people from traditionally feminine folks for being a “traitor” to their gender 🙄 Makes my blood boil. *editing for typos.
Circe is genuinely a great modern story touching on myth, but I don’t think it was meant to be interpreted as a true depiction. It’s one of my favourite books, because you really see Circe grow into her power as a character. I hope you give it a chance, but no pressure :)
Personally, I loved Circe for its depiction of the gods as unchanging, terrifying beings distinct from mortals in form and function. The book isn’t purely about the gods being awful (and believe me, many in the story are), it’s about how a young minor goddess like Circe navigates their political and personal machinations, carving out a niche for herself in a world that so rarely caters to someone like her. Moreover, within the context of her story, it makes sense why certain gods are cruel and unyielding- why would Helios, the dazzling Titan of the Sun, for example, tolerate anything less than visual perfection in his godly progeny? As one of the last left standing from the older generation of gods, I personally loved the idea of him being a rallying point for the old gods’ nostalgia, while simultaneously bending to Zeus’ influence in the name of convenience. And this is only one example out of many; whatever the case, while the Greek gods have many facets, I think modern readers need to abandon the idea that they HAVE to be morally “fleshed out.” We don’t need backstories for why some of them are horrible and others aren’t- at the end of the day, they’re a reflection of what was REAL to the Greeks, not what was necessarily right.
There are many examples of Goddesses taking mortal lovers. One being Aphrodite and Adonis. Also many stories of nymphs and mortal men, such as Narcissus and Echo.
I hate the idea of Penelope getting news of Odysseus' journey. Her whole character arc was about her courage, loyalty, and persistence in the face of 10 years without news from her beloved husband. Is he alive? Where is he he? Has he abandoned her? Nevertheless, she toils on, preserving her household as long as possible.
I don’t know how this ended up on my feed, but I am so pleased it did. It’s such an insightful analysis that gives voice to a lot of the feelings I have when reading these retellings. Great video!
I think there's also a bias towards medieval history to portray it as neglectful of female voices and want to reinvent it for modern women. A lot might not be as well known as male figures and writers but they won't get anywhere always being a shadow to well known male figures. I'd probably be interested in a story of Penelope having to negotiate with different suitors who mirror the monsters Odysseus weaves through but I care less of her just hearing about what her husband has been doing and then commenting on that over her personal life or getting jealous.
@@annaselbdritt7916 Referring to the time period between roughly 475AD to late 1600s, usually characterized as the time between Roman rule and the age of enlightenment. It also doesn't get a good reputation with "womens rights" either because of simpler standards or just focusing more on later eras or putting more importance on current year.
I don't like the "cultural appropriation" argument because thousands of years of art would never exist if people didn't get inspired by the stories and cultures of other people.
That's kind of ignorant tho... my best friend is Greek and she is so bothered on how America stole Greek mythology and misformed it into something that just isn't what it was meant to be in order to get money. Just makee your own stories it's stupid to steal from cultures that aren't your own. My best friend is very passionate about the subject and every "reteling" is just stolen Greek history that you took in order to get buyers that like the original story so yes it is cultural appropriation and I'm so glad someone is talking about this
@@tr.ns_overlord3798the culture of modern Greece doesn’t even remotely resemble the culture of Ancient Greece. Culture doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It’s created by the influence of other cultures. Breathing new life into old myths is a tale as old as the Romans.
@@pisces2569Not exactly-just because the Greek people are obviously different in the present day does not erase that those myths and folklore are our cultural history. Westerners(particularly Americans) taking these stories and ripping them away for their own purpose sucks, as it contributes to a long standing issue of not affording cultural sanctity. Greek history, culture, myth, language, etc are not afforded sanctity-are not allowed to be sacred. It sucks, and it is appropriative.
The idea is that they’re not inspired by these stories… they’re cannibalizing it. These authors could create their own stories with new characters and tell epic tales in ancient Greece. Instead they take these stories to write fan fiction, but are not inspired by the stories, they just wear it like a skin. More and more of these stories means people will be confused as to what was the actual story, meaning that each “retelling” diminishes the original.
Clytemnestra's "feminist" fans not throwing Cassandra under the bus challenge (impossible). Clytemnestra to Cassandra be like: "I'm gonna kill you because you're dangerous (despite the fact no one believes you). But you must understand. I lost my daughter." Cassandra (who was cursed by Apollo, captured by Agamemnon, lost her family and her whole city): "That's rough sis."😐
"Clytemnestra has been "villainized" by the original myths" my ass. It's like these so-called feminist writers are afraid of women characters having flaws.
Well, Clytemnestra killed Cassandra because she wanted to stick it to Agamemnon, and her two sons posed a threat to Orestes for the throne of Mycenae ...
@@genevieve7676She was, though. Read The Oresteia by Aeschylus. Orestes was acquitted for murdering her because mothers aren't real parents, according to Apollo and Athena ...
I knoew we had too many greek retellings when that YA author who sold her retelling of The Odyssey to Harper Collins admited she never actually read The Odyssey before... sorry but how do you plan on retelling something or saying something new if you don't know the source material? I don't know if it was anti-inctellectualism or just laziness but it was too much
IIRC it wasn't supposed to be a retelling of The Odyssey though? Just a very very small segment of it focused on some extremely minor characters, but her publisher marketed it as one anyways. I also think her interview said she never read the *entire* Odyssey, not that she'd never read it at all
Oooh this just put into words everything i've been thinking about the retellings and "new takes" of these myths and stories. I genuinely feel these come from ignorance and just, not knowing the actual myths but knowing the general plots
I'm not gonna lie, considering the video explicitly points out that many of these authors are literal classisists, who have both read and studied the original myths for years if not decades before writing their novels, this feels like a very oversimplified and just... incorrect take. Clearly, one can be *very* knowledgable on the classics and still write a flawed retelling. Idk, it might be true for lore olympus (though i don't know enough about its author to say for sure) but every other book discussed here clearly comes from a point of extensive knowledge, and is yet flawed.
Pat Barker lost me on a word 'okay' in a f*cking ancient greece. I'm not even a native english speaker but I know this word did not really exist till 16th century or so. Also, using verb 'to f*ck'. Her 'Silence of the girls' feels like bitter rumbling I can't even force myself to finish. Briseis doesn't feel like nobility. I really hate this 'feminist' depiction of strong women as bitter and angry nags. I liked Circe though, the tragedy of unrequited love of main character and loneliness resonated with me so much that I cried. She feels more like a 'strong woman' without being an absolute killjoy.
Percy Jackson has caused irreversible damage to greek mythology (no hate to Percy Jackson, I'll aways fw the books and hero's of Olympus. But It's quite clear that a lot these authors probably came out of reading those books when they were younger with the idea that Riordans depictions were somehow the template for modern greek gods, when Riordan just did his best to modernise them and encouraged reader's to explore the original mythology themselves).
I don't remember who said it (maybe Harold Bloom?), but I remember a quote along the lines of "a feminist or marxist critique of Shakespeare can tell us a lot about feminism or marxism, but it tells us very little about Shakespeare." These books tell us more about the preoccupations of modern society than about the works they're based on. The genuinely good ones that transcend their times will hopefully survive on their own merits.
It used to float around my head everytime I would hear stuff about feminist readings of classical works. Most of the time, it's not really connected at all to what happened in the works, but just someone's perspective bleeding into a story. their perspective is fine, but it's got the same level of validity if I just went through Hamlet under an antisemitic lens lmao. it's all just subjective blah blah blah. Only time will tell which of these retellings will make it. Kind of hope that someone retells hephaestus's story and life, he's my favourite greek god and arguably one of the most compassionate.
@@washada So... You just want a fantasy story that you know is vaguely connected to something that came before, perhaps one in the current zeitgeist, and you do not care if it follows the source or even respects it? You are Netflix Witcher fan, aren't you? Perhaps you thought Rings of Power was 10/10?
@@jesustyronechrist2330 Ovid's Metamorphosis is a modern retelling of the ancient Hellenistic myths, which often interpret of fully reshape the source material in order for the author to speak his ideas to the people of his time. The changes can go from simply shifting character motivations, to wholly inventing new stories which affect the depictions of the mythological figures; like Athenea being jealous of Arachne's talents, or Poseidon raping Medusa -elements not observed in previous versions of the stories. And by "modern" I mean the year 8CE. Because retelling stories with modern sensitivities and goals is as old as... storytelling.
*Greek Mythology lover here!!! Here are some things to consider about Hades and Persephone:* 1- The original hymn to Demeter goes on its way to relieve Hades of all responsibility and puts all the blame on Zeus, since he was the one who arranged the marriage without informing either Demeter or Persephone. 2- Hades' actions in this story are all in line with what would be expected of a wedding in ancient Greece: Ancient Athenian weddings began with the bride being taken to the groom’s house in a chariot. The groom would give the bride gifts, and the families would feast together. During the ceremony, the bride would eat a piece of fruit given to her by her husband, to signify that her needs were now going to be provided by him. After this ceremony, the marriage was consummated. 3- The reason why the whole thing is treated as a kidnap is because neither Demeter nor Persephone were informed about the marriage. That also explains why Persephone was so scared and confused when it all happend. 4- There is no real evidence that Persephone was ill-treated, abused, or in general badly treated by Hades; in fact, the Homeric Hymn to Demeter directly mentions that Persephone was a guest of honour in Hades’ household. 5- In the Claudian poem "De Raptu Proserpine", while Hades is driving to the underworld, Persephone cries and complains for her fate. Hades feels sorry about his action and comforts Persephone by wiping her tears, and then promises her royal power and a good marriage. After that, we are told that Hades is no longer a gloomy frightening figure, but a smiling kind god. ("The tears he wiped away with his murky cloak, quieting her sad grief with these soothing words: Cease, Proserpine, to vex thy heart with gloomy cares and causeless fear. A prouder sceptre shall be thine, nor shalt thou face marriage with a husband unworthy of thee.") 6- When Hades gets informed about the famine Demeter was causing, he allows Persephone to return to her mother while also proposing to her. He promises her he'll be a good husband and offers her equal rulership over the underworld. ("Go now, Persephone, to your dark-robed mother, go, and feel kindly in your heart towards me: be not so exceedingly cast down; for I shall be no unfitting husband for you among the deathless gods, that am own brother to father Zeus. And while you are here, you shall rule all that lives and moves and shall have the greatest rights among the deathless gods: those who defraud you and do not appease your power with offerings, reverently performing rites and paying fit gifts, shall be punished for evermore.") 7- After his proposal and before Hermes takes Persephone away, Hades stealthily gives her pomegranate seeds to eat. She eats them, consummating their marriage. (Obs: We can infer that she did this willingly since the Hymn calls Persephone "wise / high-minded" and Greek mythology says that gods don't get hungry and don't require food such as mankind does.) 8- Persephone herself says later that Zeus had given her to Hades with "métis" (wisdom), showing that she was transformed by her time with Hades, and now believed him to be a fitting husband. 9- Many ancient sources support the idea of Hades and Persephone loving each other: (Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 29): "Plouton (Hades) fell in love with Persephone." (Virgil, Georgics 1. 36 ff [Roman bucolic C1st B.C.]): “Tartarus hopes not for you as king, and may such monstrous lust of empire never seize you, though Greece is enchanted by the Elysian fields, and Proserpine reclaimed cares not to follow her mother.” --> Persephone prefers to stay with Hades than returning to her mother. (Lucan, Pharsalia, VI): "[...] to Persephone who shuns her mother in heaven [...] I shall tell the world the nature of that food which confines Persephone beneath the huge weight of earth, the bond of love that unites her to the gloomy king of night, and the defilement she suffered, such that her mother would not call her back." --> Persephone is directly mentioned to have a dislike towards her mother Demeter and is specifially mentioned to have a bond of love with Hades. (Ovid, Metamorphoses, X): It is directly mentioned by the character Orpheus that Hades and Persephone are united in love. 10- In the artistic depictions (vase paintings, other texts and etc.) where Hades and Persephone are shown together, they are always shown to be happy. Persephone is never portrayed as a miserable wife and Hades is never portrayed as a cruel husband. 11- Plato / Socrates had this to say about the two of them: "You see they change the name to Persephone and its aspect frightens them. But really the name indicates that the goddess is wise; for since things are in motion, that which grasps and touches and is able to follow them is wisdom. Pherepapha, or something of that sort, would therefore be the correct name of the goddess, because she is wise and touches that which is in motion and this is the reason why Hades, who is wise, consorts with her, because she is wise." (Cratylus dialogue - Plato). 12- If you read all this, you are a legend!
Unfortunately a number of your points about the Homeric Hymn to Demeter are wrong. There absolutely *is* evidence that Persephone was ill-treated by Hades: the Hymn states that when Hermes finds her in the Underworld, Persephone is Hades’ παράκοιτις (a term for wife that literally means “beside” + “bed”; Gregory Nagy translates it as “bedmate”). When you take this with the following lines 344-345, describing Persephone as “the one who was much under duress, yearning for her mother, and suffering from the unbearable things inflicted on her by the will of the blessed ones”, the heavy implication is that Hades has raped her. Moreover, we cannot infer that Persephone ate the pomegranates seeds willingly. In fact, the text very clearly states the opposite: Persephone herself says that Hades “compelled me by βία [physical force/violence] to eat of it” (line 413). I have some further contention with the rest of the points you've made, but since that's more about source interpretation in the context of the misogyny of ancient Greece and Roman, I thought I'd just stick to noting some of the factual inaccuracies in this comment! I’m also interested in your point about Persephone being directly mentioned as a guest of honour in Hades’ household. I can’t seem to find this in any of the translations of the Hymn that I’ve read?
I was a big fan of Greek mythology (but never properly learned Latin and never even started greek, so now I´m devoted to westerns)). Anyway, I don´t get revisionist takes on myth while authors know nothing about ancient customs and morality. I love the dialogue over Oedipus in The Thorn Birds, and how Christianity changes our understanding of right and wrong. Yes, it is a hard thing but morality changes. I believe we still could have good retellings, actually, most famous antic tragedies retold myths and had different views on who should be blamed.
What do you mean she wasn't miserable?? This is literally written at the end of the hymn (τέτμε δὲ τόν γε ἄνακτα δόμων ἔντοσθεν ἐόντα, ἥμενον ἐν λεχέεσσι σὺν αἰδοίῃ παρακοίτι πόλλ᾽ ἀεκαζομένῃ μητρὸς πόθῳ - "there he found the lord in his palace sitting on a bed with his bashful bedmate, very much unwilling, longing for her mother"). Not only is she crying for her mother but also is called an "unwilling bedmate".
@@N.I.A23 That quote is not from "the end of the hymn", that's from the moment when Hermes - following the orders of Zeus -goes to the underworld to retrieve Persephone (verse 340 of the hymn). At that point, Persephone had stayed with Pluto (Hades) for quite a long time and was deeply missing her mother, that being the reason for her suffering. Some of the most reliable translations we have today of this hymn, translate this part of the text to: "and he found the Lord (Hades) inside his palace, seated on a funeral couch, along with his duly acquired bedmate". There is absolutely no suggestion of rape in this part of the text or in any part of the hymn whatsoever. After Hermes tells Hades about Zeus' orders, he happily allows Persephone to return to her mother while also proposing to her. He promises to be a fitting husband and offers her (a woman) equal rulership of the underworld (something that would look absurd on the context of ancient greece). "Hadês, King of the Dead, smiled with his brows, and he did not disobey the order of Zeus the King. Swiftly he gave an order to bright-minded Persephone." (cf. I. 355) ""Go, Persephone, to your mother, the one with the dark robe. Have a kindly disposition and thûmos in your breast. Do not be too upset, excessively so. I will not be an unseemly husband to you, in the company of the immortals. I am the brother of Zeus the Father. If you are here, you will be queen of everything that lives and moves about, and you will have the greatest tîmai in the company of the immortals. Those who violate dikê will get punishment for all days to come those who do not supplicate your menos with sacrifice, performing the rituals in a reverent way, executing perfectly the offerings that are due." So he spoke. And high-minded Persephone rejoiced." (cf. I. 360 - 370)
36:06 when you have some knowledge of how marriage worked back then it’s also just incredibly heartbreaking and bittersweet This is at least one mother/daughter duo who was actually reunited
Not so old. There's a Greek story from last century about a groom's mother who told him to just punch his new bride to shut up her crying on the wedding night. It is not so unusual that women's feelings mattered as much as the livestock's.
@@Badficwriter If women's feelings didn't matter, as you say, there wouldn't be any laws protecting women in ancient Greece. But there were. Read the laws of Lycourgos for Sparta and the laws of Solon for Athens.
@@locusta-bw2vdit was never about the protection of women (people) as individuals. it was about the protection of women (daughters, wives) as property. even sparta, in which women trained and married as adults, only allowed them those "rights" because they (well, rightfully) believed healthier women produced healthier children.
i remember picking up ariadne by jennifer saint and being so confused and disappointed? like, ariadne is a mortal woman from greek mythology that actually gets a happy ending, yet this allegedly "feminist" retelling actively takes that away from her. also, the conflation of the roman poet ovid's account of medusa's origins into greek mythology specifically will never not annoy me. yes, greek and roman mythology have many similarities, but there are many differences as well, and it's important to make that distinction when it's necessary. and when you have a detail that only appears in roman accounts (that we know of) and not greek, calling it greek mythology is just inaccurate.
Oh I HATED Ariadne. That whole saga is my favourite myth and it seemed that at every single turn, Saint fundamentally misunderstood what the myth was about in order to reduce the story to "men bad," the most boring possible interpretation of a wonderfully interesting and complex myth with many bad men, but many fascinating bad women and other twists and turns as well.
I will defend the more sympathetic backstory of Medusa simply because 1) as you pointed out, it could very well be Greek in origin but any documentation verifying this could have been lost to time 2) there are countless variations to myths and legends so to say one is "incorrect" is absurd, there is no definitive version to oral traditions passed down through the centuries and 3) it's very compelling and frankly a lot more interesting than her just being one particular gorgon.
@@benjamintillema3572 then just say roman mythology. that's my issue here. i'm not saying that it's "incorrect" wholecloth, and i dislike you implying that i did. i'm saying that referring to it as GREEK mythology is incorrect as the oldest extant source we have for that version of events is ovid's metamorphoses. we don't just decide that it's greek in origin because we like the vibes better; every extant greek source that references medusa's origins at all is pretty clear that she's simply a gorgon from birth. human priestess medusa who was cursed by minerva is roman in origin, so people saying that she was cursed by athena are actually incorrect. again, ancient greece and rome have many similarities in culture and mythology, but they aren't the same and the distinction is important. also, your point about it being "very compelling and more interesting" is subjective.
@@tillydavvers yea i also thought ariadne was really boring 😭, but i wanted to stick to my criticisms of it as a mythological retelling. the sections with phaedra where more intriguing and more entertaining.
@@princeapoopoo5787 It's also not strictly about the myth of Hades and Persephone. It loosely uses the story as a framing device to tell its own story about connection, family, purpose, and forgiveness, all while being a general celebration of these larger than life stories and characters. 10/10 will always recommend
21:16 credit to this author for mentioning the men and boys who were viciously killed and had their heads mounted on sticks, acknowledging it wasn’t just women who were victims
You perfectly summed up my issues with this genre, and your insights were so fascinating to hear and I wholeheartedly agree with them! Fantastic video overall, your argument and analysis were so well said!
Thank you for this. Being a Greek woman comes with constantly having to reconcile the mixed messages and complexity of my heritage. Yes, ancient Greece was largely patriarchal and Athens especially was really sexist and yes, inevitably that bled into many of the surviving myths and stories. But even so, there's also so much to love about them just as they are. So many of these fictional women are important to me- being inspiring and terrible, human and strangely comforting. It's always a weird experience to pick up a modern version of the story meant to uplift them, only for it to treat them overall less kindly than the original story or for them to feel less human than they did thousands of years ago because they didn't really understand the assignment or cultural context. When I try to talk about this with people, I feel like I sometimes struggle wording it in a way that doesn't make me sound like I dislike retellings written by non-Greeks BECAUSE they are written by non-Greeks. It's just... these stories are very personal to me and I feel like more often than not there's no room left for me in them anymore. They are very clearly about some other people, some other culture. When they are brought to modern times, they take whatever Greek thing of interest and bring it to America, involving few to no Greek people. When they take place in ancient Greece, it's often a Greece that I can't recognize. And don't get me started on the christianized nonsense. Like how Hades is made to be a mustache twirling villain because to christians he's the closest thing to a Satan equivalent (EXTREMELY inaccurate) or how 90% of Hades and Persephone retellings these days are just "virginal, repressed woman escapes puritanical environment and has to fix a sad man who liberates her with s*x". Like. Y'all can write christian mom erotica and leave our myths out of it, thanks. Anyway, thank you for tackling this issue and its effects with so much empathy. Westerners are so used to this narrative that by virtue of being European or American they share some sort of inherent connection with (and therefore have some kind of ownership over) Greek history and folklore that it's a pleasant surprise to see someone who isn't Greek call it out for what it is: cultural appropriation and exploitation. Even more so for acknowledging our long, long history of being colonized.
I'm not Greek (I'm from another Mediterranean country), and I only studied Greek a couple of years, so I'm no expert at all, but often, when I read these "retellings", I can feel how fundamentally American they are (so far they've all been from authors from the USA), and I'm kept wondering why. Why take myths that aren't yours and twist them to fit your own culture in such a bizarre way? Why the female characters feel more one-dimensional, are often talked badly about or made antagonistic or down right villainous in the supposedly "feminist" retelling? I'm not saying these books shouldn't exist, but they're profoundly alienating for me and they keep me wanting something else. I can only understand a minimal fraction of the frustration you may feel, but I guess I just wanted to show you my sympathy, because when I've tried to talk about the appropriation angle and such, I've always been faced with disbelief, and being a non-Greek I was feeling that maybe i'm just imagining things, but your comment shows that no. It's actually important to not use other's peoples cultures and histories lightly. Sorry if I'm rumbling too much. I'm sleep deprived 😅. Take care and thanks for sharing your perspective!
Greek culture, history, language, etc has never been afforded sanctity. That’s been our problem over and over, we are never allowed to keep our things sacred
@@BigBadWolframio Thank you for the kind words ❤️ I wanted to make clear that I don’t think those books shouldn’t exist either because I didn’t really mention it! I’m even fond of some adaptations that don’t really have anything to do with accuracy to the original text or culture. I’m just trying to explain why retellings are so often not for me as a Greek person and why that might be an issue if you look at our history. That being said, I’m not wishing for any of these authors’ houses to burn down lol. Also, your experience with trying to talk about this to people rings true to mine. It’s not uncommon to be dismissed and shut down unfortunately. When trying to explain that we have centuries worth of history being culturally appropriated and exploited by Europe (and later America) as well as colonised by several different powers one after the other I’ve gotten the “sis, white people aren’t oppressed lmao” treatment. For a lot of people we are too white to have the right to be a part of discussions about colonisation and cultural theft, meanwhile hilariously for some Europeans (Western Europeans usually) of certain political beliefs we aren’t white enough to belong with them, so they’ve been appropriating our stuff while simultaneously inventing reasons why we aren’t “real” Greeks and why they have more of a claim to our history than we do. Anyway, sorry for the tangent. Appreciate all the empathetic, insightful comments. You take care too ❤️
@@chiefpurrfect8389 As an Irish person I completely relate haha. Colonization doesn't stop at skin colour! And the amount of times I've seen Irish mythology very obviously misused in fantasy books/shows just makes me roll my eyes. Although I make no pretense that Irish people still actively suffer from racialization, a lot of white non-irish (im looking at the Americans who like to claim their one irish great-great grandparent lol) don't understand how a lot of myths are tied to Irish oppression and how there are still deep-rooted effects of colonization in Ireland today 🤷♀
@@megan7843 Wolfwalkers is a good example of how Irish mythology is combined with the impact that colonization had on the nation. However, many people especially Americans probably didn't even notice that particular aspect of the film for they don't really know what effect Cromwell and his Puritan idealism had on Ireland. Although, knowing Americans Cromwell would probably be a hero in the eyes of certain Christian groups here, since America has been founded by Protestant cults and Puritans were one of those groups.
Thank you for this! I remember reading the Homeric Hymn to Demeter and was struck by how powerful it was. As you said, it really is a story of women helping women, such as Hecate supporting Demeter throughout her search and the mortal women who comforted Demeter without even knowing she was a goddess. It's also interesting how the whole root of the problem was caused by a father (Zeus) deciding on his daughter's marriage without consulting or even telling her mother. And although bittersweet the ending is mostly a happy one and a victory for Demeter and Persephone, because often women were effectively cut off from their birth families when they married but Persephone gets to stay with her mother 2/3 of the year. I think Demeter's character assassination in modern Hades/Persephone stories is a classic case of the Death Eater Ron Trope, in which an originally benign character is turned evil in fanfiction because the author wanted to turn an originally villainous character into the hero/love interest but needs another villain to achieve that purpose. (also they might simply dislike said benign character) The mysterious and dangerous older rich man/innocent virgin trope has always been popular after all, but since readers don't like to be confronted with the obviously rapey connotation of the Hades and Persephone myth (I mean it was rape even by ancient standards) Demeter has to be vilified, for it was her fury and journey that is a clear reminder that the abduction was anything but consensual. Also possible is that teenage/young adult women are deflecting issues against their own mothers on Demeter, which I guess is a choice but not really fair to the goddess. If you're interested in more thoughtful interpretation I recommend Stray Gods, which is by no means a perfect game (like why does it have such unmemorable music when it's supposed to be a musical game and the protagonist is a Muse?😭) but I do like the thought and artistic choices put into interpretating Greek gods and how they would survive in a modern setting. With Persephone in particular there seems to have been a deliberate attempt to move away from the popular Dark Romance yassification.
Most of the problem is that writers started applying the logic of Grimm's Fairy Tales to the Hymn to Demeter which completely changed the expected protagonist to the 'Princess' type. Then nobody bothered reading the actual Hymn because its not that kind of story at all. The brother's Grimm were obsessed with proving that Germans and Greeks once had similar cultures and that German folk tales were evolved from Greek-like myths but modern narratives seem to demand the opposite and read Fairy tale archetypes into a completely different story telling tradition.
My thing is is that the roots of people's quote on quote beef with Demeter is the fact that her creation of winter is viewed as an unfair punishment against the broader span of humanity because like you said even though she was helped by other Mortal women she still punished them alongside their husbands and countless generations of their children with cold and bitter Winters; in the ancient and Medieval World, winters were extremely brutal as they were oftentimes seen as life or death. So I believe the general dislike against her often is rooted in the fact that we resent the fact of winter time coming and that we cannot enjoy spring and summer eternally.
@@annabaker8137 Demeter doesn't create winter that's a misreading. Bitter cold winters don't occur in Ancient Greece and have nothing to do with mediteranian climates. In the mediteranian the Winter season is the wet season required for growing crops latter in the year. The dividing up of the year due to the pomegranite seeds is about storing and planting crops the seasonal element is secondary. The Homeric Hymn is about the institution of Grain agriculture its not a seasonal myth that's a Victorian attempt to make all myths into protoscience. Ancient calenders show that the part of the year Kore/Persephone spends in the underworld is non-contiguos it doesn't represent winter. Kore enters the underworld first when the seeds are planted, returns as harvestable corn, is harvested and returns to the underworld as corn stored in granaries and then returns to be consumed. Since the granaries are emptied precisely to help farmers survive the parts of the year without food Demeter doesn't 'withhold' food during that part of the year. The hungry always rejoice WITH Demeter at the sight of Kore they don't blame her since without her grain was never planted in the first place.
@@AC-dk4fp will I understand where you're coming from I quite frankly disagree with you Demeter's part in this tale is to teach women how NOT to behave when their daughters are married off (AKA sold off) to older men that was predetermined by their fathers and grandfathers without the say or consent of the mother oftentimes within Greek society; especially among Athenians, girls who were married off oftentimes never saw their mothers again. The point of the myth of Hades and Persephone, as I see it is to teach girls to accept their transition from maidenhood to Womanhood. One of the earliest myths has Hades and Zeus deciding about who to take Persephone's hand in marrige the beginning of the story; with Zeus agreeing to allow Hades to pursue her without consulting Demeter or even Persephone herself; as is what happens in real life especially in the Hellenic world- mothers were rarely ever given the opportunity or chance to see their daughters again especially in where Homer is from, Athens.
People never acknowledge that the story of Medusa being assaulted by Poseidon and unfairly cursed is not the original story. Instead it was written by a Roman guy hundreds of years after the original stories would have been passed around in religious tellings, and he had a real bone to pick with Roman authority and government so he basically wrote a fanfic of Greek mythology portraying the gods as being evil and featuring the abuse of power. In the original story Medusa legitimately just did consensually hook up with Poseidon, in some stories she hooked up with him directly in Athena’s temple, so she got cursed. It’s like if hundreds of years from now people look back on the Percy Jackson stories and say “oh look at this accurate depiction of what the ancient Greeks believed, look at these genuine mythological stories of the gods being evil”
I also heard that Medusa might have even just being something that exists like the other gorgon sisters and was inly made into a cursed human later on. Though the validity of these claims is hard to define.
Wasn't Medusa just a random ass gorgon that was just born so ugly that it turned people into stone? She even had sisters in the version of the myth I know, never heard of her being human at any point before the internet.
I have no idea where you're getting that from. Medusa was around before Ovid's Metamorphoses but she was just a gorgon existing with the curse of mortality. Ovid took the character and gave her a backstory that fit his theme of (and you'll never guess this one) metamorphosis. The backstory just so happened to be violent and unfair. It feels like you haven't read Metamorphoses because there are plenty of stories with the gods being merciful and the humans being purely evil. There are happy endings assisted by the gods. If you can give me a primary source for your 'original story' that tells of a past that resembles the one you have described, I'll happily say I'm wrong.
15:58 “The teacher who taught me Greek” “graduate with my classics degree”-she was taught (if it actually means language wise) ancient Greek. I always hate this. Greek people exist TODAY, and speak Greek. Authors like this always act like present day Greek people don’t exist.
YES and I wish modern Greek literature was give a spotlight too. We have so many amazing poets and writers; Elytis, Cavafy, you name it. All with fabulous narratives and poems that grasp onto such pure senses of life. I wish more people appreciated and saw how modern Greece has value and our culture wasn't overshadowed by the past.
Once again, the specter of white supremacy rears its ugly head. This notion of Greeks being rendered extinct and supplanted by what some consider a 'dirtier,' 'tainted' people traces back to the 1800s, notably illustrated by the ideas of Fallmerayer. It wasn't until the late 1940s that Greeks began to be widely recognized as white. The myth of Greek extinction gained further traction following Greece's liberation from the Ottomans. Europeans had long appropriated the ancient Greeks as their own, viewing them as a foundation for the white world's historical legitimacy. However, with the sudden emergence of a nation identifying as Greek, rightfully claiming its ancient history, efforts were made to disassociate them. The notion that ancient and modern Greeks are distinct peoples reflects a white supremacist ideology, suggesting that their lineage has been 'tainted' through contact with other ethnicities, thus altering their essence. However, the concept of a people unified by blood is inherently supremacist. The ancient Greeks did not conceive of 'Greekness' as inherent in blood or skin color. As Isocrates observed in the 5th century in his 'Panegyricus,' Greeks were defined by a shared culture and language. These cultural and linguistic elements have naturally evolved over time, as language and culture always do. Even in the 5th century, they were not static. Therefore, 'Greekness' transcends biological lineage or physical appearance. Going with the logic of the white supremacists the ancient Greeks themselves where not Greek.
yeah, it's like Ancient Chinese and Modern Mandarin aren't the same thing too, and a lot of Chinese can't read the texts, and the pronunciations are probably already lost.
I've heard the term "Hellenophile" used to refer to people like this - academics who are obsessed with classical antiquity and don't care for the extant people who inherited their cultures
this deserves many more views. as an actual greek person thank you for being respectul and actually knowledgeable about our history. i loved your video so so much. the last quote made me cry
really loved your essay! i like how you addressed how ancient greek myth and religion is used as an 'easy' backdrop, without considering the cultural significance of the myth! that being said, one of my favourite mythological retellings is an adaptation of medea called 'savage beasts' by rani selvarajah. it's set in the mid 1700s where medea is from calcutta and jason is british. it charts their relationship from beginning to end, and it uses the new context to comment on colonialism in india and south africa. for me at least, any anachronism is less glaring as it takes place neither in ancient greece nor the modern day, without losing sense of euripides' intensity.
That book sounds fantastic!! I'm very drawn to mythic retellings which explore the ideas and themes of a myth in a new setting. Adding it to my reading list💛
@@JustAGuySlayingDragons how is it cringe? think of it like hadestown and how orpheus and eurydices story were reframed into a sorta industrial setting. or for non-greek myth examples, the lunar chronicles with fairy tales in a scifi setting. its just another way to retell the story.
Reminds me of the Romeo & Juliet movie with Leonardo DiCaprio where it was pseudo modern and they used handguns in place of swords. Shockingly decent movie
As a lifelong fan of Greek Mythology writing a thesis on the topic for my history focus, please reupload this. It is a phenomenal video, and I’m unsure why it’s become a listed video. You’ve done fantastic research and make incredible points
The main issue with the genre is as you pointed out, the rampant cultural exploitation of ancient greece, and in similar vein, norse mythology as well. Our modern views cause us to lose our perspective of the reasons behind these ancient myths and we start to view them as an continuation of our own culture on which we can impose our ideas. We feel like these ancient European cultures are ours to be done with as we will, even though there are little actual connection between the cultures. An excellent, thought-evoking video that touches on the hypocrisy of mythological rewriting, without attacking the authors at all. A fresh breeze for sure in a normally very polarized genre.
To be fair, that's always been the history of mythology. The Ancient Greek playwrights were 'appropriating' their culture's oral religious myths. In turn, the Romans reinterpreted the Greek myths to suit their purposes. The Medieval world did the same, then the Renaissance, and so on. Modern women writers are following a long and time-honoured legitimate tradition.
Could you explain what you mean when you say hypocrisy? In what way have they claimed something they don't live up to? They have not claimed to tell the ”true” story in any way, just their own version.
@@aliciabergman1252 I can't answer the specific question you asked, but I think that there's a problem when the retellings are the only version that we're exposed to. There's a risk of reinterpretations becoming the originals, and knowledge being lost over time. For example, I grew up with a version of the Persephone myth where Persephone picks a flower in a field that opens up a stairwell into the underworld and she willingly descends, becomes trapped after eating the pomegranate seeds, and becomes a powerful Queen of Hades and goddess of her own. I've seen this retelling and similar versions around the internet claiming that they're older versions of the myth and that the abduction part was added as Ancient Greece became more patriarchal; I haven't found a single modern academic source arguing for this though. I haven't found an Ancient Greek source for that version of the story either-- it's very likely that this version of Persephone's abduction was created during the mid-20th century as a feminist reclaiming of myth and history. These recenterings of women in myth were important for empowering women and it's a great story about claiming your power in life's darkest circumstances, but now 50-60 years later we're repeating it as if it's a fact that this is an Ancient Greek story.
@@perilouspigeon6613 isn’t that just the nature of stories, changing over time? For those wanting to know the originals they are available but overall stories change to reflect the time we live in. It’s a whole other thing entirely claiming to show ”the true story” of a historical event or person imo. The older version of Cinderella had very dark parts that have been cut out from most of the adaptations, they serve a purpose (mainly punishing the stepsisters) but are today viewed as too disturbing for children. I see nothing wrong with that so long as the original is available. As long as you’ve saved the family recipe that’s been passed down for generations nothing is lost by changing some ingredients when you want to make it💕
Classicist Jean menzies (on UA-cam as Jean's Thoughts) has a great video essay about the origins of the modern perception of Hades and Persephone as a romance trope came from I loved especially how she traced back the history of the way that story has been told and retold across the centuries. She similarly takes umbridge with the way Demeter is flatted to shrill helicopter mom in modern retellings.
@@grimreapergal is shit video to be honest! she doesn´t mention that Persephone his the biggest dedicated to mariage, none of the sources of relationship after the marriage like Lucian Dialogues of Dead, she just said what everyone knows
I think you make excellent points here that must be considered and understood by responsible readers. I do also, however, think that "reclaiming" the voices of "lost" women isn't so much about filling in the blank for narratives that never were (because, as you point out, they WERE there all along) so much as it is a reclamation of the myth teller's identity. I'm coming at this as a folklorist, not a Classicist, so bear with me because I approach them from a different theoretical framework. If retellings now are entirely too feminist, then retellings in the postmodern era have been entirely too patriarchal because these ancient stories have been told primarily by men in the past several centuries. Pat Barker isn't writing in response to the ancient source material, she is writing in response to how Achilles has been adapted and his story retold by 20th and 21st century men. This inference is strengthened by the fact that the majority of her novels are not Greek retellings at all, but novels written in or about the 20th century. She is clearly a feminist author whose agenda is to claim the right to tell old stories in a way that represents her ideas, but in that regard she's cut from the same cloth as Margaret Atwood. Basically, from a folkloristic framework, feminist retellings are totally justified so long as they are genuinely intended to convey some truth that informs the audience about a communal identity and value system. Madeleine Miller, Natalie Haynes, Jennifer Saint, etc on the other hand are all authors who deal almost entirely in Greek retellings. They all benefit from each other's works and haven't deviated from their focuses because Greek retellings are their bread and butter. Therein lies the rub. While some of these authors are really good, it's pretty obvious between their debuts and their follow up novels that they are writing feminist retellings because that is what publishers want to sell. I'm thinking of the difference between Song of Achilles and Circe, the latter of which didn't seem to have the same passion as the first (I have not read The Women of Troy by Barker yet, but it may also disappoint). There is no dearth of mythological characters to pull from, and I imagine that re-imagining these narratives from their perspectives is endlessly fascinating as a writer. But... eventually this means the narratives are voided of any meaning. They cease to offer opportunities for perspective, whether that is an 8th century BCE or 21st century CE perspective, because "feminist retelling" is what sells and what publishers demand even when it contradicts the original myth, the values of the readers, the intent of the writers, or disrespects the culture of origin. This brings up the next point: is it ethical to profit off these stories, or are they so old that they're truly ubiquitous? I think this is a great question, but I don't think it's all that simple to answer because our conceptualization of colonialism comes out of postmodern thought and while useful, is problematic in its own right because it disregards (at least in this case) the long history of cultural/ethnic dissemination in Europe. I 100% agree that authors from Greece should be at the forefront of the genre. I also 100% agree that Victorian Hellenism was SUPER problematic and that Greece has been torn to shreds in the name of misappropriation in the modern era. However, I feel like we're veering dangerously close into essentialism if we're going to dismiss all Greek retellings that aren't written by Greeks because we can't pinpoint the exact motivation behind the dissemination of Greek culture to non-Greeks. Was the Greek teacher enslaved in Rome wrong to teach the Roman children about his culture, or were the slaves who heard the stories wrong to pass along those stories that they overheard from a fellow slave? The fact of the matter is that these stories have existed in the European psyche for so long that we can't fairly project a postcolonial interpretation on the intent of ancient people whose histories and narratives are incomplete (I mean, I would KILL to read Euhemerus or Pytheas of Massalia). It's really impossible to parse out what has been taken and what has been offered in good faith. I think the conclusion of Cosgrove's article leaves us with as few answers as we started with, but a fine compromise to consider, "we should be thoughtful and humble, listening and approaching any culture’s myths with a healthy dose of respect, even dread and wonder." I think these authors do that, but I think it's fair to place responsibility on them and their publishers to draw attention to Greek writers, and we as the audience need to seek those authors out. Anyway, seriously... great video. I'm only sending you an essay because I think you've posed an intriguing argument that got my little myth-loving heart racing and I love the dialogue.
@@nony_mation Oh, no doubt! But what we define as "feminist" also changes over time as we critically reconsider its basic premises and found new schools of thought. I think it's fine to call things out and debate whether something is beneficial from a universally feminist approach, I suppose. It's also fine to suggest that ideas from a bygone era are are feminist even if the source of that cultural artifact would not understand the concept and may even argue against it, but then feminist criticism also has to come on a case by case basis and disagreement in method needs to be acknowledged. Discussions like this are great because they're based on ethics and not objectivity.
Love your thoughts here. I’m an ex-medieval historian and have read plenty of medieval re-tellings of Greek myths, and they are all reflections of the values of their respective times and cultures. The same goes for these stories. They’re flawed in their own ways and although many readers probably won’t go on to seek the original material, some will. I think they’re a brilliant gateway.
@@lemueljr1496 I wish people would not be so blithe at the idea of changing definitions. While language does change, it is a natural evolution over time, while these changes in the definition of feminism seem to be based on what gets the current crop of academics some attention. Someone writes a paper and suddenly a word no longer means equality, it means supremacy. I am so sick of being told that a particular "wave" of opinion has overcome opinion havers and we all must agree a word doesn't mean what we grew up thinking it did. This isn't like science, where our schooling was inadequate to explain complexity, so it dumbed everything down to the point its all wrong. Just as feminism is emptied of meaning when it is used wrongly/clumsily for the purpose of making money, academia loses its integrity and authority when theses are created to make media ripples and secure position.
as a Greek American girl who grew up on these myths, the thing that leaves the worst taste in my mouth is when retellings ignore, or worse seem outright hostile to, the culture that these stories sprung from. As much as people seem to like to think that Greek myths are an island of their own, untethered to any real tangible culture, the fact is that while the same deities aren’t widely worshipped anymore, modern Greece is the continuation of ancient Greece, and if you take the time to look, many superstitions and old habits have carried over from the old days. I love seeing people be so invested in a part of my culture, but it pains me that they only seem to like it when it’s divorced from that culture entirely.
Fascinating take! I do wonder what she thinks about the game Hades, which personifies all of the characters (they aren't just cardboard cutouts with functions) and advances the stories of those characters. I really loved it, as the people in the game felt like real people and most of their actions made a lot of sense.
Gosh, I wish I knew more about video games and was able to discuss it! I've only ever heard good things about Hades (one of my lecturers practically built an entire course around it lol.) Maybe video games will prove to be better than novels at retelling Greek myth in a truly unique way.
In a similar way, I knew the video was focused on literature, but I kept hoping for her take on the musical Hadestown because it's such an interesting mix of the topics discussed: interpreting the themes and characters from Greek myths into more modern contexts and with modern concerns in mind vs. respecting the original heart of the stories and the purposes they served, and why they continue to resonate (specifically when it comes to tragedies).
@@katealexandra8960I would say Hades is the best “feminist retelling” (putting that in heavy quotes because it’s not what I would call it, but it’s what others have) of mythology because it actually gives agency to the female characters and documents much of the ugly familial history the gods had together, both male and female. For example, Persephone is shaped out to be someone who wanted to stay with Hades because of the fact she didn’t feel at home on Mount Olympus, but then eventually chose to leave after the presumed death of her son. It erases a lot of the SA connotations of the Greek myth for a more modern approach of estrangement from her husband. Supergiant also went through the effort of making sure the gods weren’t related to each other like they are in Greek myth, since familial incest among the gods was used to justify the same thing in real Ancient Greek culture. (Also it’s just weird)
Thank you for making such a detailed and articulate video essay which perfectly demonstrates the ick many of us Classics academics feel around the current Greek Retellings trend. Sometimes the academic community struggles with coming across as snobbish around retellings and that is such a shame, because myths are meant to be adapted and retold, they are a wonderfully elastic medium. The issue with BookTok retellings is that so many of them seem reductive, and instead of adding to the complex tapestry of mythology, reduce the characters to paper-thin Modern tropes.
"Feminist retelling." What was once an interesting idea on subverting old tropes is now a cliché trope itself for the writer to turn their AO3 stories they wrote while in college into published novels. Nothing against AO3 as a lurker 👀 for the site. I've just read enough stories on there to be able to spot the similarities between them and these BookTok Greek retellings.
I’m currently reading Circe and the reason why i love it is because it’s literally as it says it is: a retelling of her life. No added drama or emotions or anything, just detailed and descriptive retellings of her life. That’s it. And that’s why i love it so much.
bizarre that small yet relevant to interests video was shown to me by the vile yutub spirits but you are a good analyst, Ms. Alexandra. I do not feel misled.
So glad this video was in my feed.. I remember thinking I wasn't interested in greek myth for years because I'd ever seen these kinds of re-tellings where everyone the authors try to imitate an ancient voice but fall flat because they fail to realise what makes things like greek myth and Shakespeare stand the test of time is because they resonate to an emotional core. I remember reading Medea in highschool and being absolutely absorbed in it. I wrote an essay with ease, as I had so much to say. The pain, grief, intelligence, fury in Medea still stuns me to this day, because I've never seen a character more relatable. Smart women, who despite the mistreatment they receive, end up being their own worst enemy because they self sabotage in a misguided sense of justice and honour. Then, we had to read some articles on Medea and if it were feminist and... I was not impressed. So many, and i do cringe saying this, but missed the point of Medea. It was so ironic to me that in order to 'fix' Medea, so many of them made her a damsel in distress or stripped her of her agency. It still gets me how someone could read when Medea is offered her happy ending, and she rejects it because she decides an ending wherein Jason is happy is not one she can tolerate, and they couldnt feel such dread and catharsis. The fact that Medea is so cruel and in the wrong, yet so sympathetic and filled with pain, a character whom you root for but scream to beg for her not to do what she plans, seems pretty feminist to me already. And the worst criticism that drives me mad, "Medea is anti feminist because shes a vindictive harpy who kills her kids and that's a misogynistic stereotype". Like, yes! But no! Yes, the wicked harpy who kills her kids is a misogynistic stereotype, very often when a writer wants an audience to hate a woman, she'll make them a bad mother, because a woman's maternal success reflects her worth a person. But, one; mothers do kill their children. It can be portrayed in a misogynistic light, but mothers do in fact kill their kids, so the very act of portraying it is not inherently sexist. Two; She gets away with it. She is not punished for this act, instead she is given a ride and a safe place to flee to, while her ex-husband is now in ruins. Three; The killing of the children is thematic!! Obviously!! By thematic I dont mean allegory or metaphor, I just mean that we're meant to look at how this act effects the themes of the play rather than the logic of it. Okay I could write a whole new essay on it, but to put ut bluntly; Medea killing her kids represented Medea killing a part of herself and killing the love that Jason had once given her. Yes, she kills her kids but her kids are not actual kids, they are devices to aid a plot. Medea is a play that asks us to see how grief and abuse has made a woman cruel and coniving and asks us to sympathise with her, and see her win. Idk man, if that isn't feminist, at the very least on a "feminist catharsis" level then i do not care for what is.
Her killing the kids ultimately falls on Jason, who upended his own happiness and legacy because...? Medea wasn't a "real" Greek woman? Medea gave up EVERYTHING to help Jason, naturally she'd sacrifice everything again once he turned on her. I could see Jason and Medea as a tale of a husband's fall into a dangerous rabbit hole (a la Q Anon) and his wife's traits that he originally fell in love with (including and especially her flaws) come back to bite him.
I read feminist retellings back in the 90's. MZB wrote a retelling of the Illiad, and Kerry Greenwood (the Phryne Fisher author) wrote a series of feminist retellings that included books based on Medea, Elecktra and Cassandra. There were probably feminist retellings before then, but I went to uni in the early 90's, so that's when I first read them.
You can't right a modern feminist retelling on Medea she is basically the main female girl boss in her story despite it being a tragedy she was thought to have a somewhat happy ending.
@@dylanwright9927 it's unfortunate that she did basically the only feminist retelling of Arthur. I mean what else is there. and she was so right about morgan being demonized, I see the queen of Avalon (heaven), a psychopomp to the land beyond the veil being killed by the male heroes, a 2d manipulative witch who is more evil than every man and am horrified. Also, the begetting of Mordred, originally Merlin disguised Arthur as Lot to sleep with Morgause. Nowadays it's the opposite so that a man has no culpability and Morgan is a r-pist of a helpless powerless... king
Loved this! Wasn’t expecting to get such great insight and perspectives tonight from what was to me a random video on my feed from a smaller channel. Got hooked by an interesting title and enjoyed every minute of it. I really hope your channel blows up.
One reason i actually really like the hades and Persephone myth is because of Demeter. Maybe I'm missing them, but I i haven't read many myths that offers this perspective on something that actually happened. It's hard to describe. Like daughters were married off, or kidnapped, or both back then. There must have been actual women like Demeter, who tried their best to make sure their daughters were safe. Idk, it feels like she's giving a voice to a more conmon experience than a glorious warrior or fair princess. Especially since it isn't a modern retelling. Although a modern story isnspired(not a retelling) would be pretty cool
I would read the shit out of a book that framed Hades and Persephone as an arranged marriage without Demeter's blessing, and that she worked her ass off to get nullified as a result. Honestly, a lot of the story as told already lends itself to a lot of lawyerly wrangling. Like, where the fuck did pomegranate seeds come in? That's so pointlessly arbitrary that it feels like it's from a set of rules we weren't told about.
I'm pretty sure in the story, Demeter is just upset she doesn't have her daughter's companionship. Greek gods are consistently chill ❄ about their conflicts. So it makes sense it is not seeing her daughter that is her actual reason for being angry.
Thank you for this video. It's actually quite healing for me. As a Greek woman, I feel like I've been gaslit a lot of my life about my own connection to my ancestors stories, to the point as if the connection doesn't exist at all. The elitism exists and it's not just in academia. I'm considered off-white to white people and too white to be POC but we as a culture, as a society, and even in our looks can differ from city to city... Greece is such a complex, colourful, and beautiful place that when I describe such a difference to the pristine white marble illusion that non-Greeks are used to I am shut down immediately. It is incredibly frustrating. I walk into these books shops and get interested in the Greek titles only to see non-Greek names attached and realise that my history is currently a fashionable trend that can be monetized by everyone else but Greeks. But if Greeks try to monetize off our own culture, there is a particular stereotype thrust upon us... But that's a rant for another day...
Look, As a Brazilian, I say that classical literature was imposed on us through colonization. Obviously it wasn't the Greeks' fault, but Greek Literature was imposed as parameters for our literature, so I think it's fair that we can retell them
Imma be real, I wish Irish mythology generated the same interest. We at best see some stuff featuring stories about fairies and the actual extremely rich mythology cycles get short shrift. I'd spend decent money to see someone's take on queen maeve if it was well written
@@roflcopterIIII would also be glad if Queen Medb got a feminist retelling where she whooped Cu Chulainn's stupid ass, although that's just my personal feeling about the Ulster Cycle in general: it's an unbelievably frustrating read about violent dudes doing violent things, but such is to be expected from the literature of a society that depended on war for survival. I guess a really good retelling of the Ulster Cycle would navigate how the kings and warriors really feel about having to engage in all these conflicts because it's their duty to their people
As someone who has grown up and completed their education in Italy, it’s interesting to see that these stories are the gateaway for younger generation to connect with Greek mythology. The Odyssey and the Iliad are both part of the compulsory education in high school, and I don’t see why other Western countries, or countries influenced by ancient Greek culture, wouldn’t incorporate them in their curricula as well. I enjoy modern - sometimes bastardised - versions, but as you mentioned in the video it’s so important to understand the context and relevance of these Myths. Thank you for this super interesting video!
Apologies if you mention this in the video, I’m only about 6 minutes in, give or take, but it’s very strange to me how none of the writers of “feminist” retelling ever focus on a play about women, that could be seen as proto feminist, The Trojan Women.
A thousand ships, the first book talked about, does. the afterword clearly states that trojan women was one of the main sources. Also used are Hecabe, the oddyssey, the aeneid, heroides, the orestia, iphigenia in aulis... I don't think Haynes' writing deserves to be put in the same category as the yassified Greek myths otherwise discussed. It makes me mistrust the rest of the video.
Also Euripides Helen? Like I know it is not as ancient and as hence is not considered "canon" myth but someone has definitely tried to show an alternate point of view of the Trojan War from Helen's perspective
What about Antigone. You could just about rewrite the play as a novella, copying the dialogue verbatim, and you would be writing about the most "feminist" story possible. Antigone is a tremendously compelling character explicitly bucking her traditional place in society to stand up for herself, her family and her rights against the king (her uncle Creon) and in the process laying down the foundational case for natural law and the rule of law that remain central to the definition of "western" politics to this day. Add her care for her father in Oedipus at Colonnus and you have a very complex, admirable and sympathetic character.
omg i loved this. love your presentation style, really feels like an essay while being accessible and interesting! you have a gift :) as an ancient history major myself i really resonate with this! before i started studying, i thought i might make translations of Greek myths or retellings myself. but since studying and growing up a little more, i realise how much richer my retellings of my own people's stories would be! i have mainly irish and aboriginal australian heritage, and would LOVE to be a part of keeping their mythologies living and breathing for new generations. if i'd seen this video back in high school, it might have prompted me to that thought much sooner! theres a real a kind but honest message underpinning your video!! im not usually a commentor in this capacity but seeing a small creator with such a talent for this compelled me hahaha. anyways all that to say LOVED IT YOURE GREAT YOUR ACCENT IS VERY SOOTHING MWAH MWAH HOPE YOU ARE WELL
Wow, wow I really appreciate this video essay! I can't believe that you said that they are 'out of your wheelhouse', this was beautifully done with clear evidence, quotes, and we can all tell you really put effort and thought into this. I also really loved that you were direct about what you didn't support/enjoy about novels, too often people try to skirt around their true opinions so that they don't offend anyone. I can't imagine all the research and time it took to put this together, and as someone who studied classics, I really appreciate the time and care you took to discuss this topic!
Great video, and I'm glad people do see it the same way. It always bothered me how people took Greek culture and ran with it, like it was some media franchise fandom. I am Indian, so my immediate comparison is if people outside India started writing the same kind of stories for Indian mythology. Which to be clear does happen, and even in parallel with historic hellenophilia...there was a a fevered interest in Indian culture in Europe around the same time, some of which gave rise to international Indian cultural perception today (ie hippies). Anyways, my point is that, as an Indian in the modern day with a passion for the Indian classics, I want to be able to engage with those classics in a healthy way (no nationalism, religious dogma, etc.). But I also want to avoid the exploitative vibe of modern engagement with Greek mythology. This video helped clarify some of my thoughts here. Thanks!
From the poems and interpretations I read when I was younger, Helen wasn’t even the true cause of the war. It was in fact Aphrodite, who promised Paris “the hand of the most beautiful woman in the world” during a beef with Athena and Hera (Maybe not Hera) in which Paris was chosen to arbitrate who was the goddess most fair. Helen was already married, but Aphrodite was true to her word and sent her son Eros to shoot Helen with an arrow and change her affections. A war happened because Aphrodite wanted a silly apple (that was admittedly cursed by Eris, goddess of chaos and discord)
Starting a war over a pretty face is a misandrist story not a misogynist one. Eris is the cause but she's the personification of strife so that doesn't mean much (not (k)Chaos that's an unrelated purely neutral force in Greek thought).
The epithet "the face that launched a thousand ships" is from Christopher Marlowe, a contemporary of Shakespeare. Honestly not sure whether or not Haynes knows that.
@@washada In a way the Iliad perfectly represents how wars are started: Over a frankly minor incident which all parties blow way out of proportions (The trojans had the option of handing over Helen back to Menelaus but were too proud and saw that as caving in to demands from a greece king) with both having a network of alliances and even godly(foreign) support on every side which turned in the heads of the leaders supposed easy win into a mess of a war that left everyone devastated.
Me: Ugh I’m so sick of stories about Hades and Persephone Also me: One of my favourite video games is Hades and one of my favourite musicals is Hadestown
Also Hadestown DOES give agency to the women in the myths, which is what a lot of those retellings lack. Persephone is described as having chosen to go with Hades, and their relationship is strained BECAUSE he is trying to strip her of the agency she has in leaving and coming back, because he fears she won’t come back. Same with the Orpheus and Eurydice storyline - there she chooses to go to Hadestown as a means of survival instead of dying by accident. Hadestown generally isn’t trying to just be some sort of modern progressive retelling, it more so modernizes those stories so that their points and ideas are clearer to a more modern audience.
I do agree with you for the most part, however I am not sure how I feel about the cultural appropriation considering that Greek mythology has inspired culture all over Europe for the past 2 and a half thousand or so years. No, of course that does not justify the British stealing from the pantheon or lord Byron “signing” archeological sites, but given that some of the greatest poets of my home country have been inspired by Greek and Roman mythology almost 300 years ago and given the general interconnection of European cultures especially in what used to be the Roman Empire, I am not sure that this argument is as straightforward as it is presented here. I would be glad to be corrected though and will surely read the article you cited in the video!
Yeah, takes like this always come across to me as well meaning, but helplessly trapped in the dystopian hell of modern late stage capitalism. And I feel like they miss the point of *why* certain forms of cultural appropriation are considered bad, when that’s going to be compared to remixing a 2.5 thousand year old myth that has already been part of the cultural lineage of where you currently are since… well, in a sense, at least the Ancient Romans. I mean, unless you live in Greece, I guess.
What bothers me is that these modern tellings don't use the archeological information that we have, but the original myth-tellers didn't have access to. Demeter and Persephone are from the Bronze Age, mentioned in Linear B, and Hades is notably absent. The "original" myth is of Mother Nature and her daughter, Death. We have insight from Mycenaean Greece on how this myth evolved, especially that the men came into this cycle later in history. The Lady was the scary force from the Underworld, her husband was added to the story later on. The inherent conflict in the relationship between life and death and a mother and daughter has so much material for storytelling, but we're stuck on running away from home to marry a goth man mommy disapproves of.
i'm so glad this ended up on my feed, thank you for putting into words a feeling i had for the past years, since myth retellings became popular. I love greek mythology since i was a child, thanks to a book by Thomas Bulfinch that was on my father's shelf, the years went on and i started to get in contact with Homer, Euripides (i love Medea, she's so complex and well written, it truly amazed me), Sophocles, Aeschylus, Sappho... All of them wrote complex characters, capable of good and bad things all the same, and it took me by surprise how all of those retellings seemed to justify the bad things the main character did, or put the blame on someone else, sometimes other women, sometimes women who had nothing to do with it, which was always strange to me. I hate how modern books made Demeter a villain, Homeric Hymn to Demeter is a beautiful piece about a mother searching for her daughter, it's also about grief, about loss, and love. When a daughter got married she went to her husband's house, never to see her parents or home ever again, Demeter getting to reunite her daughter again it's sweet, a happy ending, but now she's a toxic mother, a helicopter mom, the villain of Hades and Persephone's story. Anyway, I could talk about it forever and say more examples, but in the end I just wish they would write the characters as complex beings, because they are, and that's what's beautiful and interesting about them
I've been confused on why demeter is always portrayed as a bad mother but not just that I've been eriously confused with hades and persophnes sorry wondering were they ever actually in love or just some made up thing
@@SiYennaScreams Hades and Persephone were kinda pushed towards one another by Zeus... it was an arranged marriage. Persephone was kidnapped, so it's understable that Demeter would freak out... ... Read the ''Homeric Hymn to Demeter'' by Homero. ... Also recomend the video (''Miscellaneous Myths: Hades and Persephone'') by ''Overly Sarcastic Productions'' ... Regardless of what it started, it's still one of the healthiest relationship in Greek mythology. Still ... don't kidnap your future wife.
The thing with the letters Penelope's writing to Odysseus is maybe based on the Heroides by Ovid, which is a series of fictional letters by women from ancient Greek myths (and Sappho, the only historical figure there). And one of them is written by Penelope to Odysseus, so there is some precedent for that kind of thing happening in ancient times (albeit ancient Rome, not Greece).
I've noticed this absolute explosion of interest in mythology in the last few years. It's definitely been popping up in Urban Fantasy & videogames. I've loved mythology & folklore & fairytales since I was a little girl. I saw the old Harryhausen films Jason & the Argonauts & 7th Voyage of Sinbad & all the beautiful sculptures & vases in a Time Life Book about Ancient Greece & was hooked. I also had my mom's HS & college books about classic Greek Mythology. So I was pretty familiar with a lot of tales never having read an actual translation of the Illiad/Odyssey ( honestly I tried to listen to the book on tape & the 400th time feasting & praise to Grey eyed Athena was mentioned I got bored so I understand why most people are familiar with some version of a retelling) One thing I did learn is that many of these myths are inter connected & overlap & are much more complex than any Encyclopdia of Collected Classic Myths can really convey. I also have a keen interest in ancient history so I wanted to understand the cultural significance since I personally do not think you can take art out of context of its time & culture. I was an applied art major & that required a solid grounding in art history. Anyways, the only "feminist" retellings I ever read was The Mists of Avalon(Arthurian Legend) & The Firebrand ( Troy) which I really enjoyed because they read like historical fiction from the female characters POV. I guess I don't mind modern retellings per se but I don't think they need to be modern feminist critiques of the societies from which the myths originated since so many of the myths are a critique themselves or loaded with social commentary already. Or do people think the Illiad is pro war & toxic masculinity? What about The Trojan Women by Euripides( I did read that in my mythology class lol) It's pretty female focused iirc.
Most of the people who think the Iliad as pro war and pro toxic masculinity are barely veiled White Supemecists reading their values into the Iliad not feminists criticising a dead culture for its values. While Myths of Avalon is more critiqued for its author's vile ideas outside of the book so nobody talks about the actual work any more.
FINALLY, some good fucking Penelope takes! Seriously though, this is an absolutely phenomenal video essay. This type of historicizing and comparative analysis is essential to conversations surrounding contemporary myth retellings. I really want to commend your work-as a former Classics major I can’t tell you how many conversations I’ve had on this exact topic, and it can be hard to articulate, but you do such a great job of covering multiple areas of criticism and being firm yet fair in your analysis. The conclusion almost made me tear up, genuinely. Can’t wait to watch the follow up video, although first I have to go reread Emily Wilson :)
I have no idea why Penelope fans have such a hate boner for Odysseus. For starters, he's, like, the one guy in Ancient Greek mythology who DIDN'T cheat on his wife!
@@jennyji9723 I can't tell if you're being serious or not but Odysseus very much did cheat on his wife. that was a pretty significant thing that happened.
Thank you for your points on Hades and Persephone retellings! They always bothered me for that reason; when trying to make them more "feminist," they usually reduce Demeter's character to a shallow, possessive nag, instead of... a powerful woman who uses her agency to get her daughter back from the man who abducted her? It's a weird trade-off; to make the "romance" more palatable, they always end up sacrificing the element of a familial bond between the female characters, their emotions, and their autonomy.
The whole point of the hymn to Demeter is Demeter. Women were second-class citizens, barely considered human, especially in Athens. So when a man asked for a woman in marriage, only the father or older brother mattered. Not the mother, not the daughter. Once Zeus agrees to Hades' request, Kore becomes Hades' wife, by law. When Hades...lies with her, Kore becomes Persephone. She is no longer Kore, of her father Zeus: she is Persephone, of her husband Hades. That's how it was back then. Demeter retaliating, having power over the situation, demanding and raging, was something most women back then were unable to do. I'm sure it was cathartic for the mothers.
This was one of the biggest reasons why I kinda hate lore Olympus. It claims to be “feminist” retelling but the writer’s internalized misogyny does seep through A LOT. Almost all the female characters who aren’t Persephone get villainized.
One character who I’m surprised isn’t a big character for retellings is Hera. Now that’s a character who, from everything I understand, is completely vilified for reacting to her husbands various crimes and infidelities. She seems to be every misogynist stereotype about “controlling ball and chain wives”, even when her husband is actually a cheater and rapist. The goddess of marriage and women, portrayed time and time again as evil, controlling, yet also hysterical and weak and completely inept at stopping her husband from doing anything. It “feels” like the implicit moral there is that she shouldn’t ever be mad or try to assert any power, merely submit and allow Zeus to do what he wants. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s the reactionary sentiment that *feels* inherent in Hera’s tales. Yet we get retelling of Persephone, wherein the girl actually wants to be kidnapped and the mother is demonized for being against it. Wild.
Well, Hera usually reacted by punishing the person Zeus cheated on her WITH (or who kept secrets for her husband out of fear of his wrath, like Echo--or their children, like trying to kill Heracles as an infant), rather than her husband himself. If anything, Hera's reactions were enforcing the patriarchal standard of "when a man can't keep it in his pants, the woman is responsible", which we still see the bitter fruits of today. And then there's things like throwing her baby son off a mountain because she thought he was ugly.
I was about to say the same thing Hera's reactions were brutal and abusive toward the women to have been violated by her husband. None of the gods were particularly nice people. They were driven by their passions, lust, rage and revenge often pointed at completely unwilling and relatively innocent humans. they were the personification of the brutality of life and not whole and functioning adults with the capacity for reason and rationality
I don’t think I’ve seen a video that deserved an instant subscribe in a long time, but THIS IS CERTAINLY ONE OF THEM. From research to analysis to presentation, this is magnificent! Thanks for making it!
im not usually one for video essays (feel like they usually lack the nuance), but clicked on this one anyways, and im so pleasantly surprised!! so good, so interesting.i thought i was going to cry, its just beautiful !! and at some point i was even a bit skeptical of your position (when you started talking about what right we have of re-telling these myths - thought you were going to be a bit conservative. but tradition is something that is alive and it suffers change and its ok to do retellings. but the lack of respect we see sometimes for something ... its a religion !! people believed and prayed to these gods, maybe is just mythology for us, but it was religion and it was also history and it was ethics and so much more !! and i feel like that is way to often forgotten), but you expressed what i felt in a way i could never do !! just beautiful, really !! (also loved the music you put in the background, good choice ahahah)
literally came BACK to this video because I was happy to see the views practically double over the day. This is a very beautiful video and I am glad to see it get the attention it deserves.
I liked this video essay. I do however have an issue with terms like cultural appropriation because a lot of ideas of cultural belonging are rooted in highly problematic nationalist ideas. "Greek" mythology is an anachronism in itself. Most of the myths we know are either Athenian or Thebeian, generally ranging from the Classical period to the early Roman period (with Homer being a clear exception, being from the Archaic period). These myths changed rapidly in both time and space, similar to how culture changes. Direct cultural lineage (and this is not just Greek nationalism, a lot of nationalisms are guilty of this) is an 18th and 19th century narrative that allowed nationalist movements to rally around a perceived shared history.
YES. Thank you! It was hard for me not to feel like some of this (excellent) video's last points were boiling down to: if not by-blood Greek, don't tell ancient, ancient stories that almost everyone knows regardless of nationality. It was starting to feel a little essentialist, and it made me uncomfortable. Of course, all people have a right to their culture's stories. Of course, people from those cultures should ideally take the forefront in the telling of their culture's stories. But at this point, I feel as though its a fair thing to say that ancient Greek myths (acknowledging everything you just said about the accuracy of that term) are Greek stories, AND they are wider cultural stories, and thus they belong both to their founding country, and to everyone else who reads/listens/is inspired by them.
Greek mythology was also basically invented by creating a new category called 'Orphism' to contain all the contradictory or aesthetically ugly parts of classical literature and give them an origin in foreign influence and ideas about cultural degeneracy. What we call 'Greek' mythology is a heavily curated group of 'canonical classics' designed by Racists to split the world into 'the rational west with its unique powers of abstract thought and self control' and 'the irrational east capable of only sleep walking into their own subjection'. So the Hermaphrodite Primal Principle of the Orphic Theogyny was compared to the hybrid animals of Egyptian and Assyrian art as proof that entire peoples could suffer from having 'confused minds' while the heteronormative primal couples of Hesiod were used as a sign of the rationality of the heteronormativity being forced on various peoples in both Europe and their colonies as part of 'modernisation'. The hybrid beasts of other myths were okay as long as buff but not too tanned men were painted as hacking them apart, with Chiron and Pan about the only figures able to escape this since at least they had human heads and masculine beards.
This is exactly what my hang up is with a lot of people engaging with greek mythology and retelling is a modern day polytheist and an archaeology student. People fail to recognise these stories are REAL HISTORY and part of an actual real culture and people that DID exist! And they dont handle it with the respect and nuance it therefore deserves--moreover the religion isnt dead either! That is to say, I enjoyed this video and the light you shed onto this subject!
@@nony_mation Really? I haven't heard that. I try to be distrustfull of any Library of Alexandria narrative, seeing as most of it is so distanced and interested, but please let me know your source.
Every time somebody tries to “feminize” Penelope I want to bash my head into a brick wall. I have literally gushed about Penelope in the Odyssey with my friends and her parallel with Odysseus as a character, even down to her character points of cleverness and guile. In the Odyssey, Penelope is the one who gives Odysseus’s travels any merit at all. Her steadfast and uncompromising actions, not giving in to her suitors? If she hadn’t done that, Odysseus’s ten years of literally going to “hell” and back trying to get back to her would be null and void. And therefore, Penelope’s actions make the Odyssey satisfying as a story and, for Odysseus, worth everything he went through to return to her. It reinforces that Odysseus and Penelope are of one heart and soul, that their passion, drive, and faithfulness to each other mirror one another up until the end and make their reunion that much more powerful. All in all, Penelope is at the very heart of the Odyssey. I’ve also had almost this exact conversation about Helen as she was portrayed in the Iliad as well! To make it all the worse, the Trojan war was essentially started by Eris pitting Hera, Aphrodite, and Athena against each other. It’s also made very unclear if Aphrodite enchanted Helen to go with Paris or even if she had any choice to begin with. Yet, even if she had no choice, she spends the Iliad mourning the role she had in the war’s beginning. She comes across as not only a sympathetic figure, but a tragic and incredibly lonely one. Penelope is challenging her circumstances, while Helen allows herself to become a victim of hers. It’s a beautiful, powerful foil between the two.
There is another side the Greece and Colonization issue you ignored, the Ancient did Colonialism long before they were victimized by it. They had colonies all over the Mediterranean even before Alexander The Great's conquests. The New Testament was written in Greek because of the products of Greek Imperialism. Rome started emulating Greece and worshiping their gods long before they conquered any of Greece because of of the Greek colonies of Italy being centers of culture there. John Stewart Mil who was a leading Abolitionist and Anti-Racist of his time absolutely had a point that of western society descends from Greece not just those who might descend from them more genealogically. We English speakers don't even need to go back 1 Thousand years for the English speaking world become totally Alien to us, and most of us still worship the same God, the Hellenes of the Aegean stopped worshiping the Olympians longer then that ago. Modern Zeus worshipers are Neo-Pagans, they have no actual continuity with the Ancient Religions and are essentially based on modern Greek Mythology Fan Fiction just as much the wanna be Druids. The Roman Empire in the East essential became Greek, so no Roman Mistreatment of Greece when they first conquered it has any connection to the afflictions of modern Greece. The Greeks who have been victims of Colonialism have been Christian Greek Greek Orthodox not Pagan who literally believe in the old Mythology, from the Fourth Crusade being done by Roman Catholics to centuries of Muslim Oppression. A more Secularly minded modern Greek identifying with Pagan Culture is just as both Valid and Silly as any pretentious Victorian doing so. Going to another you mentioned, complaining about character talking in ways you find to inherently modern, specially in the context of imagining an Ancient Greek woman to have complained about Gender Double Standards, I consider another way modern people tell on themselves. In the 17th Century Novel Don Quixote there is a scene where a female exactly that, she gives a long rant that is in a modern novel set in the 1600s would absolutely criticized for sounding to modern. I have no doubt that in the Ancient World too plenty of women were thinking and sometimes saying these kinds of things, it just wasn't written down.
Egyptians and Persians did the same way before Greeks. There isno Greek imperialism you are talking about because Greeks did not have Kings. The New Testament was written in Greek at a time that Greeks were already enslaved by Romans for several hundreds of years. Colonization does not equal colonialism and certainly isnot the same as Roman and British colonization and imperialism.
@@ThePythonfan the Greeks colonized a lot of places, and many of them had kings. It was not united at the time - each city-state had their own colonies.
@@ThePythonfan Alexander, his father, Diadochi and their descendants - all were colonizers/aggressive imperialists and are considered kings. It is undeniable that Hellenism had a huge influence in late Judaism and early Christianity (hell, even the word synagogue, as well as the concept of it are inherently Greek). Such an influence would not have been possible, if there was no conquest of Middle East/Egypt after the fall of the Persian Empire.
Thanks for these well-taken observations. The one line in Silence of the Girls that lost me was when one of the men, seated, slaps his knees and says, 'Right, I'd better go.' More Tring than Troy.
I really appreciated the video. However, I struggle with any assertion that story belongs only to the culture in which it was first told. Writers tell stories because they are human, not because they are in love with their own culture and need people across the world to authentically understand it. I’m far more deeply perturbed by some comments that advise people not to engage creatively with stories from any other culture than ‘their own’. I don’t believe it will do us any good as a species and as a global community to erect echo chambers above ‘our cultures’ and insulate them from each other. For a start, doing so is inherently prescriptive and risks flattening and, actually, self-colonising whatever one perceives to be one’s ‘own culture’. That the big business of profitable storytelling is in the hands of relatively few people on earth, many of whom come from a handful of linked urban centres built upon the establishments which colonised the world, is certainly a big problem. I think it is down to people like this video’s creator to point to that, and down to everyone to learn authentically about stories from elsewhere. I do *not* think that, once we’ve learned about those stories, we should never engage with them, propogate them or use them to advance our and others’ understandings of the world. That sort of cultural tribalism will wreck our sense of shared humanity.
nobody's trying to gatekeep stories--all people ask is to be respectful. I can't just take the story of Eros and Psyche and turn it into a romcom, because then it's not the story of eros and psyche. We need to engage in those stories, but be respectful of where they came from. If I have no knowledge of Egyptian culture and mythology, if I tell a story of the goddess Isis, I am appropriating something I think is cool rather than honoring the story itself. This video is about how the poor engagement with mythology can in a sense ruin its memory and bastardize it. And ideally, the loudest voices and the most prominent storytellers should be those these stories come from, since they have a personal and historical connection to them. I can tell a "retelling" of a Greek tale that's spot on and respectful to the source material, but I will never have that ethos that a Greek who has studied the tales of their ancestors has. Kate is talking about making sure the origins of these myths aren't silenced by voices that bastardize something that doesn't belong to them
The world is already an echo chamber. Different cultures already exist within those echo chambers. However, Hollywood and American entertainment has done something extremely problematic. They refused to understand that what are simply a bunch of exotic myths to them might have a much more deeper cultural relevance to the people from whom they originated. It's a matter of perspective and not every culture or even every human being has the same perspective on the cultural/religious/spiritual value others attach to their history, art, literature and mythology. I am not Greek but as a non American myself, I can understand that Americanizing something beautiful but foreign to suit the American palette by completely removing its authentic essence to ensure it's not too much for the American audience is not something most cultures appreciate. Specially when it's done in an insensitive or thoughtless manner. This isn't limited to Greece. For centuries the portrayal of foreign cultures in American movies and literature has been extremely stereotypical and bigoted. White men and women have played Arab and Persian princes and princesses to death. Those cultures have long been portrayed (both in literature and cinema) as inferior. The same applies to the Chinese and Japanese people and the entire African continent. American culture doesn't place the same value on giving an almost sacred or certainty extremely respected space to some of the most iconic masterpieces in the history of our cultures. For most Americans (obviously not all), these literary gems and characters are different and attractive because they offer not just literary masterpieces but unique ones as well yet the same people are eager to strip them off of their uniqueness and cultural relevance to make it just a generic American romance and I cannot convince people who ignore how often this happens about how dismissive and disrespectful it is.
I do not think the original commenter is "ignorant", both of you have a point. The retelling of stories by different cultures is their natural evolution, but making sure to respect the originals and perserve them and their core essence is ALSO extremely important! We can't lock stories to only be told by certain people, but what we can do is to promote a culture that emphisizes research into source material and meaningful reconstruction and reuse of the old stories.
@@_b_e_a_n_s_ As someone from a group who experiences different forms of cultural appropriation (due to different circumstances), you nailed this perfectly & I related to this despite being from a completely different culture than Greeks LMAO
Such a beautiful and thought provoking video! I have often felt at ease with these retelling and never quite been able to articulate why - but you’ve managed to explain it in a much more eloquent way than I ever could! I have often felt, something that you touched on in the video, that because the source of these myths comes from a male generated narrative and history, there is no true way to make them feminist. We cannot ever fully detach the myth from its male history, and will thus the result is female characters either written purely in opposition to the existing male narrative, or written alongside it. I argue neither of these is the true female voice!
YES THANK YOU! I’m so tired of people trying to deny or worse romanticize stories and myths with patriarchal origins. It almost like trying to erase history and gaslight us into thinking we would live better in a time before the civil rights and feminist movements.
This video was awesome to watch, and it really put words to a frustration I've had when trying to get my high school students interested in texts like The Odyssey. I hope you keep making videos like this!
This was a really terrific video, well done. So often when I talk to younger women who profess an interest in Greek mythology I am struck by how superficial their knowledge is - invariably this is because they have never read any actual period works, but are only familiar with modern retellings and with the interpretation of Greece in American pop culture. Something which is particularly lacking is knowledge of historical and cultural context - these tales simply cannot be properly understood without at least some understanding of the world into which they were written, which, as you say, fundamentally differs to the modern world. It is also particularly baffling that in this age of feminist retellings that so many remain ignorant of the works of playwrights such as Euripedes and Seneca, who focus women in plenty of their plays, both as heroes and as villains.
That is I think the real problem - people today not being intellectually curious enough to experience anything other than a modernized rework that has been modernized and sanitized so they can see themselves and their current lives in it easily, rather than being challenged to see the past on its own merits.
I've quite glad I got this video before you unlisted it. As someone who taught AP Language as well as other high school levels of English wherein we'd read epic poems, I find this an interesting companion piece (even outside of Greek mythology; something like Grendel with respects to Beowulf, for example) and would absolutely consider using this as a source for students to respond critically to. Thank you for your work.
This whole video is a YES! Loved it all the way through. Thank you for making it and sharing it with all of us. It should make waves, be seen by everybody. Hope you'll get to the large audience you deserve.
Hello all! This has got FAR more views than I expected, wow! Thank you so much for the many kind, thoughtful comments. This was my first video essay, and it's a bit weak in places. I've made a follow-up video which addresses some of these topics in more detail: ua-cam.com/video/x_zIRxLp_-4/v-deo.html
In the meanwhile, here are a few corrections/clarifications:
At 38:54, I've cut a section from the original video about Katee Robert's Neon Gods. I wanted to discuss how Greek mythology can be used as a selling point for books which can't really justify themselves as mythic retellings. However, for a good portion of that section I was pedantically nitpicking the world building and plot, which is a totally unfair way to judge a book which is a loose reimagining, not a retelling.
In terms of the final section of the video, I want to be clear: non-Greek writers are (at least in my opinion) well within their right to write about Greek mythology. However, I believe myths should be retold with due respect and care, especially in light of Greece’s history of colonisation. It disappoints me that many recent retellings market themselves as fixing, amending, or correcting myths (‘telling the untold story of so-and-so…’), and yet often seem to misunderstand or misrepresent their source material. Myths are wonderful, magical pieces of history, and to retell them takes not only skill as a storyteller, but respect and curiosity as a historian. My concern is not that Greek myths are being widely retold, but that they’re being retold in a manner that diminishes the complexity and often strong female voices within the original myths. The marketing of many of these retellings depends on framing the women of the original myths as ‘silenced,’ which is often just not true, and seems a particular shame given these novels are introducing a wide new readership to Greek myths. As a writer, I firmly believe that questioning our right to tell certain kinds of stories leads to a deeper, richer and more complex engagement with our subject matter - and so I don’t raise Greece’s more recent history as a reason not to retell Greek mythology, but as a reminder that these myths arrive to us with the complex baggage of history, adding another layer of complexity when retelling them. (The perfectionist in me wants to take this video down, as I don't feel I expressed this point well enough. For now I'll keep it up, but thank you for reading this!)
I beg you to read “ENNEAD” a Korean graphic novel. Very well-written, complex storyline, engaging plots and twists, range of layered characters that are distinct from each other. I highly recommend it.
The story is about Egyptian gods. I won’t say it’s canonically accurate, but is very well made, has its own entirely different intriguing story.
But it’s a super angsty story with many trigger warnings. Incest, violence, rape etc.
What distinguishes a retelling from a reimagining that makes one more permissible in your eyes? (Congrats on the video btw🎉)
Neon Gods has to be one of the worst books I've ever read.
I'll just drop here that Wiedzmin, the book series that Netflix adapted into their Witcher show, was ripe with literary tropes, many of which were from ancient Greek mythology. It's obvious from the show that they had no idea whatsoever (and didn't care), so what we get is occasional superficial likeness with nonsensical symbolistic relationships.
That was a very mature thing for you to do.
But I still feel as if the claims of cultural appropriation were a bit of a stretch. Cultural misinformation at its worst, but I don't see any of these authors claiming to be Greek or that Greek culture is their own.
And many Greek retellings are just smutty literature meant for fun, not meant to be taken seriously.
I loved your takes on the performative feminism of these novels. I feel like most media is guilty of that nowadays.
This was a good video, but please, in the future, don't throw buzzword terms around so loosely!!!
I think these authors need to stop using "reimagining of" and start using "inspired by."
and also maybe "reshaping" since they're quite literally changing the story's shapes to fit a modern world
...and maybe also changing the names of their characters and trying to create their own story instead of living off the fame of something someone came up with thousands of years ago. I mean, it's like Disney reshooting its own films. And even Disney took Hamlet and called him Simba, lol.
“Revision of the Greek myth”
They should own it and say "fanfic" because that's what it reads like
@@WowUsernameAvailable remember when Simba went insane and Nala drowned herself and Scar felt guilty about murdering his brother and the hyenas didn't exist it's just like Hamlet unless those things didn't happen in the Lion King but those things did happen right because if it isn't about ghost dad telling him to kill beginning Simba's descent into madness it isn't Hamlet
"a viral tiktok dark romance retelling of the myth of hades and persephone" there is not a comforting word in that sentence
One sentence horror story
Maybe “a” ?
"a" allows room for others. scariest word there!
😂😂😂😂😂
a?
The Iliad also never blames Helen for the war, Priam tells her it's not her fault, and that if anybody is to blamed it's the gods
If anything, blame Paris.
@@schwarzflammenkaiser2347 Yeah, I fucking hate that dude. After having to read the Illiad for a course, I wound up summarizing everything in the most mundane way possible to make it easy to fit in my brain - and I literally referred to Paris as "fuck boy" and "thinks with his crotch".
@schwarzflammenkaiser2347 he could've had any women in the entire Hellonistic world and he picks the one who he knows is already married.
That is a dick move in any part of history.
Later Greek writers blamed Helen. They had her willingly run off with Paris, and I saw at least one peplum movie that re-cast her marriage to Agamemnon as an unhappy one.
And modern movies make the relationship between Achilles and his _war captive/sex slave_ Briseis into a romantic one. Hell, no. She was war booty just like any gold, silver, or other prizes he had taken on the battlefield.
@@julietfischer5056 "war booty" is one hell of a typo lmao
Why can’t people write about Eros and Psyche if they want a ‘feminist’ retelling? This girl literally goes on many trails and tribulations to win her husband back.
There's actually a book about them by Luna McNamara. I haven't read it yet tho
CS Lewis's Til We Have Faces is about cupid and psyche from the perspective of psyche's protective older sister. it's a lovely read and the narrator is a very compelling female character who challenges the gender norms of their society
that's what I'M talking about! I love those two and their myth so much, but NOPE! Hades and Persephone!
That made me remember... not a good manhwa. Ugh.
Hey, that's exactly what I'm writing!
I feel vindicated now. Nice
Demeter is so misunderstood by modern audiences! Like, how ironic is it that so called feminist retellings villainise the woman who challenges the normality of women being kidnapped to become unwilling brides??
Demeter was literally r@ped (and had children with) by her two brothers ☠ like wtf?
I think it's because Demeter is a character who is a mother and frankly a lot of feminists don't like motherhood. The dislike of the traditionally feminine extends to dismissing the concerns/worries of those women.
This is what pains me the most in all this; imagine your daughter is kidnapped, forced to live with the man that took her, you can't even see her, no one wants to help you, then everyone calls you a helicopter parent. Demeter is a mother fighting alone to save her daughter. Making her the villain is the biggest red flag for me
If they REALLY want a modern feminist story about the Hymn to Demeter? Make it Taken. It's a mom going after her kidnapped daughter, and nothing is going to stand in her way. She has a particular set of skills. Male rage over children is lionized but female rage? I haven't seen it that often, and even more rarely done decently.
This is why I love Theia Mania (on Tumblr) because the problematic behaviors are challenged and Demeter is portrayed as a mother in distress who spent all her life trying to shield her daughter from the awfulness of the gods - only to loose her to one of said gods. Granted, the less awfull of the lot but still, kidnapped and stuff. And even Persephone, head over heels for Hades in the first place in this comic, challenges Hades' behavior of kidnapping and stuff. It is not a "modern retelling" tho because it happens all during Ancient Greece but the point of view on the story is modern.
Comforting to know that even when our bones are dust and names nearly forgotten, Girlbossification still comes for us all.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 this has me in fits oh my god thanks for the giggle
How is that comforting in any way whatsoever
@@filipadsiekierka5350They are being sarcastic /genuine
Dread it. Run from it. Girlbossification still arrives.
@@Mosstoadsarcastic and genuine?
My least favorite thing about any and every “retelling” of Persephone and Hades is that they do not think about why someone would make this a myth. They do not think about death taking a daughter too young and a mother so furious she would rage against nature itself to get back the daughter she lost. They do not think about death knowing this young innocent girl should not be here so death will try to treat her as kindly as they can. They think only of the stories but not of the domains that these myths represent. The experiences that had to be for these stories to be here.
Edit, for all the arguments in the replies:
I want it to be considered not that there is a reason for a myth, but there is an experience to it. If a civilization wanted an explanation for the seasons, the story would start and end with “Persephone comes from the underworld for six months to give us spring and summer.” However, that is not the case. There is, instead, an entire story to be heard. A story that had to come from an experience. What that experience was is unclear, but nobody starts to write about a mother losing her daughter to something or someone just to explain away summer. I am not telling you to believe what I think, but I am asking you to consider that somebody once lived this. Somebody had a story that needed to be heard, and it was not just about the seasons. Please, wonder if the explanation was not a cause for the story, but perhaps an effect of it.
I didn’t realize this would get so much attention, otherwise I would have been more eloquent with my words the first time around. My b gang
they're obsessed with woobifying hades and turning him into an uwu soft goth boy
Ukr i fucking hate that trend so much
@@ManzanaDeMuerte
I'm Greek, I adore this myth for its complexity, and this is one of the best comments about it I've seen online! Thank you
Your comment is beautiful ❤
I'm pretty sure it is supposed to imply the reincarnation of the soul or literally show the seasons, rather than have a telenovela-like plot be the focus.
The women in Greek myth did have voices. Their voices did not match our modern standards for feminism, but they were absolutely there, and by pretending they didn’t exist, and writing books that give these women new voices, we have been the ones to silence them.
I see what you are saying, but the way you wrote it sounds contradictory.
@@mr.dirtydannnnn It's not...
exactly…
@@mr.dirtydannnnnIts not. You’re basically invalidating what they did do by replacing it and disnyfying it.
@@mr.dirtydannnnnIt is contradicting, that's the whole irony of the savior complex that tends to surround these narratives
i feel like the reason we see so many greek myth retelling novels these days is because a lot of the people who were kids when Percy Jackson came out are now adults and seem to want a "grown up" version of these books in a sense, but I feel like Percy Jackson worked not only because it was so novel but because it didn't directly focus on the gods themselves and instead their demigod children, which allowed the author to maybe explore some themes without completely changing what the myths were about, as you mention.
i agree! and even though it was targeted towards children, riordan was able to include the complexities of the gods and explore the themes of these stories.
I think classics are just a really popular subject in schools and when mostly women engage in that field and there’s little female protagonists they see a hole to fill. The resulting portrayals then come from a deep understanding of classic literature but a lacking of feminist / intersectional perspectives.
@@Hyuckbinchrightttt! People always seem to forget that the author Rick Riodian was a teacher who taught mythology as a part of his curriculum and I vividly remember learning about Egyptian and Greek history and mythology in primary school long before Percy Jackson was ever a thing. And retellings have long been popular
Yeah, but from a modern Greek perspective I can't stress enough how stupid the premise of Percy Jackson is. Why on earth would you portray *Ancient Greek* gods in an American context other than because of your own fantasies of American exceptionalism? Would y'all eat it up if Chinese gods and their offspring suddenly materialised in England to go on their merry little adventures?
He states that the gods are in America because the USA is the world Superpower and that the gods are drawn to these places. If it was set in the Victorian era they would be in England or France. It is still very USA focused.
Fantastic video, I also think that part of why all the new Hades/Persephone “love story” retellings miss the point is because for a long time in classical Greece (mainly Athens I think?) girls were often married off very young to older men, something we would consider to be child marriage today. The grief and pain that Demeter felt from having her daughter taken away from her was real to ancient mothers. In erasing her story, it erases the trauma and real story of these ancient mothers and daughters.
I hate the "retellings". Lore Olympus is the biggest offender off the top of my head. Not the only one. It's not a happy story and trying to make it a love story.....that's not feminist. What would be is making more explicit the themes of abuse and maybe even getting her out of there. But nah there's not a lick of critical thought to go with the creativity.
Demeter is a far more interesting character, and yet so many modern stories seek to portray the love story between Persephone and hades and end up turning her into a monster
If anything, the best retellings I’ve seen of this story was two theoretical storylines.
One was an idea to have a modern AU and the winter Demeter blankets the world in is her being a mother on a warpath, searching for her daughter, brandishing a shotgun. (Sadly I can’t remember the op, but I distinctly remember that it was posted on tumblr)
The other was the myth continuing as usual, but Hades realizes how scared Persephone is. So he doesn’t force her into anything she doesn’t want to do, and warns her not to eat anything under any circumstances. He also accommodates her with a patch of land to vegetate and care for until he can convince Zeus to return the bride price he gave for her hand (this was common in Ancient Greece and many cultures; a reverse-dowry, if you will). Side note: the op also felt bad for Hermes having to go back and forth from the Underworld and Olympus with this cus he’s both a massager and psychopomp, and Zeus is very stubborn. Let the poor god rest. This ultimately leaves Hades hands tied where Persephone could theoretically go back, but can’t because of Zeus’s stubbornness in not returning the bride price. Meaning that she *technically* isn’t wanted back in the eyes of ancient society. She notices the frequency of Hermes’ visits and realizes the issue of the bride price was the reason, and she becomes very upset at this. Hades then feels more remorse and comforts her, promising to not force her to do anything she doesn’t want to do while apologizing for the situation. Over the course of her underground stay, she creates the beginnings of her garden and gets to know Hades more. She learns of the advice Zeus gave Hades and how remorseful he feels surrounding the situation, along with his frustration with himself that he sought out advice from Zeus of all the gods, and Persephone grows to forgive him. Eventually they do fall in love and Persephone requests they get married. Soon after that though, The Underworld is swamped with new shades and it’s all hands on deck for the psychopomps. Hades is very confused and stressed, but Persephone notices that almost every shade passed from starvation or illness and is like “oh no… it’s my mom. My mom is freaking PISSED.” So the couple starts to deliberate on what to do while Hades eats a meal prepared by Persephone. But while she’s absent-minded and helping Hades figure out what to do, she accidentally eats a pomegranate seed. The pair realize what happened and start freaking out. But regardless Hades goes to Olympus to explain the situation and tells the gods that Persephone would have joined them if not for the misfortune of eating the pomegranate seed. So Zeus makes a mighty decree to partly free Persephone from her plight, and she will return to the surface for two thirds of the year, but stay in the Underworld the last third because she is now bonded to the land of the dead. Then Demeter and Persephone reunite and spring returns.
I don't understand why these "writers" piggyback on myths. Are they still a good story if they're a standalone story and don't piggyback on myths?
exactly this! the abduction of persephone is a story of mother-daughter love, not romantic love. i'm not entirely opposed to retellings that make it so that persephone goes with hades willingly but it bothers me when people insist that that's the true or "original" version of the myth (there's no such thing when it comes to oral tradition). i also don't like when people insist that this brand of retelling is feminist because how is sacrificing the mother-daughter relationship in favor of a hetero romance feminist? is it just because making persephone in love with hades suddenly makes her not a victim anymore? but then why can't a story about a victim be feminist and empowering too? hmmm
Winter Harvest by Ioanna Papadopoulou is a retelling of Hades and Persephone from Demeter's perspective and very faithfully follows the Homeric telling. It is also written by a Greek author, and hasn't seen nearly enough love. Recommending another retelling may be missing the point of the video, but I wanted to put this one out there.
Thank you! I've never heard Demeters prospective and wanted to more.
@@ayshagayle it's a really great book, I'm glad you're interested!
@catherine8889 I honestly think where a lot of people become cross with Demeter is the fact that she punishes all of humanity with winter because her daughter was taken to the Underworld- like humans had any say in that, I mean come on that is low-key bitchy.
@@annabaker8137and yet they care half as much seeing the wrath of other gods. Oh no, a goddess (a literal representation of the earth and seasons) caused the seasons. It’s almost like Greek mythology has symbolic explanations to explain things they couldn’t explain. There’s no way I’m calling a grieving mother ‘bitchy’ when her famine is what made Zeus listen in the first place.
I’ll give it a try, thank you very much !
As a Greek female writer who's tired of these retellings for the reasons you mentioned, thank you! I know the Western market won't accept retellings from my perspective but I'm so relieved videos like yours exist! Hopefully there will soon be more!
Are your works any good? Thats the first question to ask.
@@spacejunk2186 This is an important question but Anglophone writers get the spot from Greek writers with very bad and mediocre works all the time. So it's clearly not the quality the Anglophone presses are interested in, but the lens through which the story is said.
I’ll always choose a story by a greek woman than a retelling of my favourite greek myth. I know I am not the majority, but I also know I am not alone in that.
As a Greek male amateur writer I'm struggling with the same thoughts as well. Perhaps it's because of the spit I have towards Harvard but I'll say to you sis to not give up. Yes, we will never get the spotlight as great as our books may be, but then again, why should we write them too? I'm sure there're a lot of people out there who want to hear our voice as well.
P.S. seeing your comment made me understand that I'm not alone in this. Thank you, and I wish you the best.
@@spyroscheliotis5366 Thank you and wishing you the best, Spyro! It's tough pouring years into writing while seeing the disappointing state of the dominant publishing industry. But we should be continue writing anyways because someone will hear our voices eventually!
i NEED writers to let persephone and hades go 😭
no cause lore olympus itself is enough for me to never want to hear those two names ever again
@@Kam_i_ real, but also “a touch of darkness,” even worse than lore olympus.
I’ve been wanting this for years tbh. It’s like they don’t know any other Greek mythological figures lmao.
If you want to do a romance with Persephone, why not have it be between Persephone and Eurydice? Like, have Persephone be the unwilling queen of the underworld, and Eurydice the shade who clings to her identity and catches the eye of Persephone, going from acquaintances to friends and eventually to lovers. Maybe reimagine Orpheus as the deluded ex/stalker, who wants to drag Eurydice back to the land of the living, in spite of her wishes. Maybe take inspiration from IRL Orphic mysticism, and having Eurydice maintain her identity through repeated cycles of reincarnation; by drinking from Memnosyne, she is able to retain her memories of past lifetimes each time she is reborn, but she cannot escape the cycle of death and rebirth (at least, not until the finale of the story). But every time she dies, she returns to the underworld, and she can be reunited with Persephone until the pull of rebirth becomes too strong to resist. Meanwhile, Persephone, trapped in a horrifying marriage with her abductor, is plotting to liberate herself. Maybe even conspiring with Hecate to usurp Hades place.
Pershephone and Adonis, maybe? As for hades, i get he was much better that 90% male gods , but point is, that is low bar. And persephone is still his niece.
"The women who are truly silenced are the ones we don't hear about." Wow. That hit hard! Fantastic video, I'm so glad the youtube algorithm actually recommended me something good!!!
Yeah, I really liked that part. And those voices who are actively being forgotten as well, I would argue. Such as Native women, or even the Palestinians.
@@lorrithelinguistWe hear plenty about the Palestinians 💀 the natives I can agree with
@@lexfushi8504care to elaborate on that?
@@Gurianthe I mean that what’s happening in Palestine is already well known information
@@lexfushi8504it may be well known to you but it’s true that much of mainstream media is silencing the true + complete stories of the atrocities
A club at my school managed to organize a video call with Madeline Miller where we could ask her questions. She explained that, when reading the Odyssey, she was a little disappointed by how Circe was only in a few chapters, so in her book Circe she made it so that Odysseus was only around for a few chapters.
You mentioning how most of the retellings are the women talking about the men in the myths reminded me of how all i can remember about the book Circe is her puttering about the small island she's exiled to and her reactions to visitors and the world outside of here changing. The book is almost entirely about her solitude and I kind of like that a lot
Honestly the point of view of an isolated exile whose only link to the outside world is people who wind up on her island (and who aren't always welcome there) trying to make sense of a changing world she can only glimpse from biased viewpoints sounds like a whole genre of storytelling I didn't know I wanted to exist, like Rashomon was a kind of movie I didn't know I wanted more of.
Miller is the only "modern reteller" who I find myself enjoying reading and I think it is because she understands exactly why the original myth were told and utilises that in her modernization
But she wasn't alone. She was with her son.
She also wrote the terrible achilled novel that completely ignores achilles'actual character
@@rosawernblad4777her achilles is very different about illiad achilles thought
I hate how Demetor is villanized for being heartbroken that her daughter was kidnapped and forced into a marriage.😢
Peraephone is a godess. Meaning she is immortal and doesnt need to eat. Therefore she ate those pomegranates willingly. Therefore she wanted to stay with hades.
@@LynnHermione just because gods don't need to eat doesn't mean they don't feel the urge to and don't get hungry. Or simply eat for the pleasure. Immortality doesn't mean you're never hungry or thirsty. And there's plenty of stories of the gods dining and drinking. So miss me with that bullcrap.
Or maybe she just wanted a damn pomegranate. @@LynnHermione
Still a Villain (for the purposes of this story) as she knowingly killed thousands of people by withholding spring. She had legitimate reasons to be upset of course, but "my daughter was kidnapped, so I'll kill most of the worlds population," is not the thought process of a hero.
Dude, why must I reapet this. SHE IS A VILLIAN OR HERO BASED ON THE SPECIFIC MYTH. Theres soooooo many versions. Theres no reason to feel sad if they make her the villian or make hades a hero. Bruh, its a myth
thank you for talking about how modern adaptations of the persephone myth so often villanize demeter almost to prop up hades and it baffles me that there's no 'feminist retelling' of demeter's fight to get her daughter back. what makes this story different from all the others that are being retold?
exactly. it makes for a good story, sure, but I cannot see the groundbreaking feminism in a romance about a powerful, strong man who allows the innocent, sheltered girl her freedom.
@@toingingrn They keep using that word "feminism" I don't think they know what it means... Feminism should be about women working together and for each other, to challenge the power systems into bettering life of womankind. Demeter is much more feminist character, she froze the world in her feminine rage a la "we shall all starve then", until Hades was pressure cooked to let mother and daughter reunite. It's beautiful. The grief, the mother-daughter love and twisting Hades by the balls until he complied, now that's the retelling I'd like to see. Demeter is very sympathetic so it's heartbreaking how zero empathy for this woman is framed as "feminist". She's not "helicopter Karen", she put Hades' male entitlement on a blast. No one seems to wonder what Persephone truly wanted and she was quite happy with her mother before, albeit accepting her torn fate afterwards. But it was not her who initiated being put in a basement of the world and her mother fought tooth and nail for her right to see the sun and flowers again. And she succeeded. Demeter slander sickens me, she was a fantastic mother who loved her daughter and wanted the best for her.
Hades might be better than most male gods, but I'm so tired of worshipping the bare minimum. "Not as big of a jerk as he could've been" in not good enough reason to romanticize him THIS MUCH. I wouldn't call drool fiction about him "feminist" in any way, it's just meaningless buzz word in these circles at this point. Just write your own 50 shades and leave "feminism" and Greek mythos out of it, bastardizing them both.
I saw a modern retelling of the myth the other day that might fit with that (from the blurb, at least). It's called Fruit of the Dead by Rachel Lyon and the summary looked pretty promising
on the one hand, there are ancient texts that show that Persephone knew what the pomegranate seeds meant and ate them willingly.
on the other hand, outside of text, Persephone is likely a little bild older as an entity than Demeter. They were not always mother and daughter. I think many authors include metacontext into their stories.
And another point, of course, is that everyone roots for the underdog and Hades - aside from kidnapping Kore which is a younger myth adapted from a much more ancient Sumerian myth - who is comparably nice within the realm of Greek gods, is as underdog as it gets. He is not evil, he is not god of death, he just had to administrate the underworld.
@@InternetNonsense 100% this. If they want an actual feminist icon man with depth, Ares is a much better candidate. He's been SEVERELY misrepresented. Aphrodite didn't want to marry Heph but was forced to. Ares actually loved her and he was one of the only gods to NEVER force himself on a woman, especially Aphrodite, which, as the goddess of love and beauty says a fuckkkking lot. He guarded his daughters fiercely too, risking Tartarus for killing an assaulter. The dude is only ever made a villain because his part of war shows the brutality and the gore of it. So of course Athena wins every time and people like to say that makes him evil or bad to some degree, those people completely miss the point. Minus those soldiers who respect the truth of war for being ugly and not just glory and victory. It costs. And a lot of soldiers respected that truth. He also greatly loved and valued the Amazons, made up entirely of women warriors (some mythical race but some suspected to actually be a group of genuine women warriors from the east depending on sources). Could he still be cruel? Of course, every god is, but he respected strength, he wouldn't hold your hand but if you needed strength he was absolutely the god to turn to with your fury for injustice. And he actually respected you for it.
“Though the Greek society was intensely patriarchal, the myths they told centered female characters time and again. It's one of the great dichotomies that lies at the heart of Hellenic history. If women in Ancient Greece were such as marginalized class of people ,why did powerful women figure so large in myth?"
"My worry is that in this flood of mythic retellings, they add nothing substantive but rely on name recognition alone."
When a video essay is worded and hit so well it almost made me shed a tear. Thank you for this.
Tbf that’s every society that has polytheistic beliefs
Pagan Arabs believed angels were gods daughters but they themselves would bury baby girls alive
Same to Christian’s saying god has a son but considers it filthy for high ranked religious figures to have families
J 3 W S believe theyre above god in their scripture but are the first to want help (and then go back to believing themselves above it all)
The second sentence! I agree! Can you make a good Greek-myth-themed story original from your own instead of fanfictioning on existing myths?
I don’t think the first one is a completely fair question. The status of women depended on the city-state. In Athens, women stayed home and seldom left the house. One philosopher said the greatest honor for a woman is to not be talked about good or bad by her husband. In Sparta, women were encouraged to be as active as men and they could even vote. Granted men were still seen as superior.
The fact that powerful Greek goddesses exist doesn’t change the fact that human Greek women were discriminated against
@@pisces2569 Which is such an anachronistic way to look at history. It was not seen by those women as being discriminated against, it was how society was organised. Their lives might not have been public, but they would have wielded power in the household, behind closed doors. Where you go wrong, is that you interpret the question as only concerning Greek goddesses, when the question is clearly phrased as 'Greek women:' Penelope, Medea, Lysistrata. The presenter even mentions a few women by name who were clearly not portrayed as goddesses in the myths and stories.
@@ihintzablue686
Yeah, that reminded me of the first time I read a Romantic novel written by a female writer.
For much of the story, it felt the same as other 19th Century novels, but then, at a certain point and with the same ease, the novel began to narrate a feast being organized, the small negociations, bribes, intrigues and infights of the female love interest as she organizaded the event, how she had to deal with all the sellers, bankers, seamstresses, the wine seller, chose who to invite or not invite, considerations on season, having to negotiate the cold storing of edible central pieces and beer in a tropical land without eleticity, what furnitures had to be moved to storage and why, what pianist to hire, how to organize the flow of music and food, organize the crossing of the mountain passes with guides and peace keepers for guests and suppliers...
Prior to that, all I knew of organizing a wedding feast in the 19th Century was what male writers, who wrote the novels I had previously read, would: "They invited me, I went, I heard this song, that poem was read and then I talked with X, danced and went home". At most the description of how someone was dressed or some thematically relevant object, like saying there was an undescript piano, vases and statues and a list of book titles on the shelves to showcase a refined home.
Parties sprang from the ground, with just a hard cut.
Reading Júlia Lopes de Almeida was the first I noticed what a weird blind spot on the daily lives of the time I had until then, the small battles and domestic policies, WHAT they ate, how it was transported, prepared, stored, kept cold and served and all that my 21st mind takes for a given.
It was, simultaneously, eye opening and strangely... relatable. Put a pause on all the twists and romantic mush to have a fight between the beer seller and the baker for cold storage demanding immediate solution in the middle of a tropical Summer suddenly humanized the whole deal, if it makes sense.
And it made me wonder just HOW MUCH of the past we ignore just because those who wrote the stories that survived, being human, had NO CLUE on what was happening to keep their routines going or how interesting certain aspects of life they didn't live through actually were.
A lot of people use "retelling" when what they really mean is "fanfiction"
Lore Olympus is essentially fanfiction, not a retelling imo
Well yeah fanfiction doesn’t sell as well as retelling, I guess
LO was a fanfiction and Persephone wa the author's mary sue self insert
It’s like guys calling their fanfic videos “what ifs”
By this logic Shakespeare’s hamlet is also fanfiction (an argument I don’t object to)
At least fanfic is supposed to have decent character preservation.
7:35 the idea of Penelope writing to Odysseus actually dates back to the Roman author Ovid, who wrote the Epistulae Heroidum. A collection of fictive letters from mythical heroines to their lovers... the idea of retelling well-known myths through female perspectives (written by a male author, i know, but it's a start) already existed in antiquity.
Was just about to comment this!
It's an interesting idea, but poorly executed by the writer.
Odysseus was trapped on an island with only Calypso and Circe, so how would the bards know of something like that? Odysseus was never intentionally unfaithful ... he was told by Hermes to sleep with Circe in exchange for turning his men back from pigs, and Calypso clearly SA him, since he was weeping on the shores of the island afterwards.
I'm only 15 minutes in and I already find it baffling that a book called A Thousand Ships isn't actually CENTERED on Helen of Troy. Like...why would you not????
The ol Bait & Switch. "Modernism: 101". They bvuy the name "Apple" sell you and orange, then get mad at you for noticing.
Because it doesn’t really centre anyone. It goes round and round all the women, except Helen. I enjoyed it, although the points of the video aren’t necessarily wrong.
@@KarlKarsnarkThe book advertising itself as retelling Troy. It does that, there was no bait and switch.
@@MsJayteeListens The only tale of "Troy" is the "Iliad". More than anything, it's just plain lazy. Fan-Fic. Nothing else.
I haven’t read it but I wish it did include Helen’s perspective. Her story is so inconsistent with no one set canon so there’s so much room to play around and get creative
One reason I adore the Hades and Persephone (original) myth is because it can, and should be, interpreted as unfair. Hades took a daughter away from her mother, just how death does in the real world, suddenly and without explanation. It's a story about a mother's grief, and the lengths she will go to to get her child back. It's not a booktok forbidden romance, and I feel like the themes being ignored so blatantly (especially by Lore Olympus, which as a Greek, apparently my opinion toward it doesn't matter) is a real shame.
Anyway, thanks for such a great video and thank you for speaking out about this issue as it's becoming more and more prominent. Excellent essay!
Whilst I like your sentiment I disagree with your symbol interpretations.
It is unfair because Zeus arranged the marriage of Hades and Persphone after Hades asked. And Hades isn't the god of death as there is a separate god for death so I wouldn't say Hades represents death
The story I think is more to reflect how Greek women were forced into marriage or kidnapped and their mothers were left alone
It's a nice sentiment but Hades never is a representation for death and I wouldn't equate an arranged marriage as the same as death unfairly snatching away your child. If that was the case it would be like if death spoke to god and asked for his permission for you to die
@@SandDanGlockta Hey, I'm Greek and we actually study the meaning behind our ancient myths in school and this is how it is widely interpreted. Our ancestors closely connected Hades with death itself, which is why he was a lesser worshipped entity.
@@iiredgm Oh perfect! From your perspective what role does Thanatos serve since he is the personification of Death? If you are taught in school that Hades is closely connected with death (which he is and I was not trying to imply he isn't, just that there is literally another character that personifies death), what role does Thanatos play if not death itself?
This isn't an attack btw, neither was my first comment. I am not saying you are wrong, I am just disagreeing with how you have interpreted the symbols. It's opinion and it's interpretive. Greek Mythology is taught professionally around the world and we all tend to gravitate to the opinions and interpretations of those who taught it to us. Being Greek and taught in this does make you have a keen insight that my western professors didn't have of course! But also doesn't mean every Greek person is above western professors and their views are the 'only, correct' interpretation. A random Greek person's opinion, who hasn't studied the primary sources, isn't autiomatically more correct than an American, Britain or Australian who has studied the texts all their life.
For instance, I am a Australian Historian, but I am not an Australian History Historian. I know very very little about my ancestors history but just because I am Australian I wouldn't say that an American who has studied my ancestors' history all their life shouldn't have opinions or interpretations different from mine just because I was born there. I am not saying you are this kind of person, you clearly are educated in this subject, I am just saying that being Greek doesn't make someone the utmost authority on Greek Mythology. That dangerous thinking leads to the hellscape that is American's interpretation and obsession with their own history. I can't tell you how many people have told me I am wrong about actual events in American history despite my years of study because they were born there and not having studied their own history. It also gatekeeps the wonderful history and culture that international folk want to learn more about. If we all said no one can have an opinion on our culture we come from because they aren't from there, then why bother learning about other people's cultures? Again not saying this is what you're saying but just needed to get that out there.
But all that aside, since you have an insight into the culture given that you are Greek which I don't/never can have I am very interested in your point of view on the role Thanatos played. How did he come up in conversations and discussions around death if you were taught that your ancestors closely related Hades to death as opposed to Thanatos?
I disagree, theres too many variantions of the myth to say with absolute certainty that it was about a women losing her daughter. Frankly I wish people accepted the different variantions with open arms. Hades, dimitri can be heros or villians based on the myth they are in.
@@SandDanGlockta Okay so I'm not Greek, but I do follow Hellenism and while iiredgm probably has much more insight than I do, think of it this way:
There are gods of rain, there are gods of wind. But Zeus is the god of thunder and lighting and the ruler of the skies. So one can view Zeus as that representative of the skies and storms, especially thunderstorms. That's kind of how Hades is viewed. Yes, there is Death incarnate (Thanatos), but Hades rules the domain Death resides in. Death is the messenger, Hades is the ruler. Many gods have power over domains that coincide with other gods. One can pray to Artemis during a full moon, but they can also pray to Hypnos (Sleep incarnate) during a full moon as well, for both have a connection to the moon.
You are getting really defensive about your misunderstandings of Greek legends
Hey, Greek writer here. Thanks so much for articulating a feeling many writers over here have about retellings and our country's colonization. More and more we are becoming a cultural icon that people only perceive as being in the past, with modern Greece being remembered only when people come here for tourism in the summer.
+1
man if you even ask half of our compatriots if they know about our colonization they will say no. They truly be buying the story we were fed.
People don't even know about Cypriot colonization and the execution of students protesting it.
Insane.
🙌🙌🙌
Skill issue
:)
Because Hades is a tumblr sexy man.
He is dark, brooding, mysterious, emotionally distant, vaguely goth, probably tall and skinny.
Like hades would just be your local hipster goth sadboi that’s somehow the king of the underworld.
Don’t get me wrong I like Hades but the Persephone/hades story is popular because it’s hits the lord Byronic sadboi tropes like a wrecking ball.
It’s the same reason Loki is popular, or why Draco Malfoy and Snape are popular.
Yessss call them out. It's not bad to have a type, but I can't stand that people pretend that this VERY obvious archetype has nothing to do with their choices. Why do they lie to themselves lol. "I just think they're interesting portrayals" like girl if I lined up all your interesting portrayals it'd look like a family tree, be so for real.
@@esverker7018 Because people don't like to realize that they are terrible people with shitty tastes. I mean most of what we do in general is for that purpose.
@@esverker7018😂😂😂😂
Hades is a basement dwelling nerd
U forgot his 3 days old beard
Penelope hearing a 100% accurate retelling of Odysseus' travels undermines so much of her character and of the Odyssey itself.
Most people when asked about the Odyssey could maybe tell you maybe about the cyclops, lotus eaters, the underworld and such. Those are the juicy bits, the actiony stuff that ends up in most adaptations. I was among most people thinking those juicy bits took up the majority of the story, with Odysseus reclaiming his throne as an afterthought. In reality all those iconic scenes are flashbacks near the middle, character backstory to explain how Odysseus got to where he is.
The Odyssey spends the bulk of its time on Ithaca, it's more a political drama than anything and Penelope is at the center of it all. The burden she bears is that she gets to decide who the king of Ithaca will be. If she remarries than that man will be king, her son will be killed, Odysseus' legacy will be destroyed, and she loses any power she once wielded. If a man comes to Ithaca claiming to be Odysseus there is an immense amount of pressure on her to make sure it's really him. For her to falsely recognize an imposter would be just as perilous as giving the throne to one of the suitors. The fact that she truly does not know what happened to Odysseus and cannot know for certain if the mysterious stranger who arrives in the palace is him drives the tension for the third act. For her to hear what her husband is up to as it is happening flies in the face of all of this. The heart of the story is lost for the sake of modern commentary.
This got me too, I always thought the real strength of Penelope comes from the fact that she has no idea where her husband is anymore but remains faithful anyway, stalling for literal decades to keep herself and her son safe and hoping for his return. Even knowing he is alive at any point completely undermines the dynamic of mutual faith and loyalty, and shifts it to one of patience. It’s still powerful, I suppose, but it lacks the punch that the idea of waiting for someone WITHOUT knowing they’re alive has.
@@willmungas8964 Also, doesn't Penelope remaining faithful despite not knowing whether Odysseus is alive or dead also parallel the situation Odysseus himself is introduced in, with him having been on Calypso's island for about a decade but constantly remaining faithful to Penelope even if he sincerely believes he might never see his wife and son again? (Which I'd argue is also a perilous situation in its own right, since Calypso is a goddess, and by this point in the story Odysseus knows full well what a pissed-off deity is capable of.) That could be a modern perspective on the structure of the epic, rather than something intended by the Odyssey's ancient authors and editors, but I still noticed it when reading and I find it kind of neat.
@@chansesturm7103 Odysseus was everything but faithful to Penelope...
btw i never understood this, why wouldnt she recognise her own husband? Even if many years passed, unless he got his face disfigured in war, people dont really change that much.
@gergokun7154 Pretty sure Athena disguises him, so there's probably some godly magic shenanigans going on.
This is a fabulous video essay, and it PERFECTLY sums up my problems with this entire "feminist" subgenre of myth retellings. I remember being pleasantly surprised by the amount of voice female characters had in the myths proper, such as Calypso calling out the double standard of goddesses not being able to take mortal lovers, or Circe being a morally ambiguous character who is both harmful and helpful, or Helen chewing out Aphrodite, or Clytemnestra being very vocal even after her death.
Then there's the character assassination! It's not just Demeter, Athena is dragged through the mud in order to make Medusa look sympathetic. Medusa's sympathetic backstory only comes from one line in Ovid. She's become a symbol of SA victims, but the reason Perseus kills her isn't to win glory for himself, it's to prevent his mother from being SA'd by a powerful man.
Also, it's incredibly rare to find accurate portrayals of polytheism in fiction. I loved The Song of Achilles, but I still haven't read Circe because it's mostly about how awful the gods are. The gods are too often portrayed as fickle and petty at best, downright tyrannical at worst, which isn't really how they were regarded within the context of Ancient Greek religion.
It all rings so hollow.
I 100% agree with you, that's exactly what goes on in a lot of these retellings, 'character assassination'! I recently read a Greek retelling that featured Hera and they completely erased character/mythical identity in order to make readers sympathetic to her.
LITERALLY! Yesterday I was so mad because I watched a big youtuber’s video on Athena and her whole takeaway of her was that she was not “a girl’s girl” and a “pick me” all based on Ovid’s Medusa, and because she sided with Perseus and Odysseus, like seriously?! Way of oversimplifying a complex mythic character on completely arbitrary terms LOL Hate when people with huge audiences like that use their voices to paint their biased views as truth. And that seems to have sprung (or the other way around, is a symptom of) a lot of hate and othering of gender nonconforming women and afab people from traditionally feminine folks for being a “traitor” to their gender 🙄 Makes my blood boil.
*editing for typos.
Circe is genuinely a great modern story touching on myth, but I don’t think it was meant to be interpreted as a true depiction. It’s one of my favourite books, because you really see Circe grow into her power as a character. I hope you give it a chance, but no pressure :)
Personally, I loved Circe for its depiction of the gods as unchanging, terrifying beings distinct from mortals in form and function. The book isn’t purely about the gods being awful (and believe me, many in the story are), it’s about how a young minor goddess like Circe navigates their political and personal machinations, carving out a niche for herself in a world that so rarely caters to someone like her. Moreover, within the context of her story, it makes sense why certain gods are cruel and unyielding- why would Helios, the dazzling Titan of the Sun, for example, tolerate anything less than visual perfection in his godly progeny? As one of the last left standing from the older generation of gods, I personally loved the idea of him being a rallying point for the old gods’ nostalgia, while simultaneously bending to Zeus’ influence in the name of convenience. And this is only one example out of many; whatever the case, while the Greek gods have many facets, I think modern readers need to abandon the idea that they HAVE to be morally “fleshed out.” We don’t need backstories for why some of them are horrible and others aren’t- at the end of the day, they’re a reflection of what was REAL to the Greeks, not what was necessarily right.
There are many examples of Goddesses taking mortal lovers. One being Aphrodite and Adonis.
Also many stories of nymphs and mortal men, such as Narcissus and Echo.
Note to self: if they have to point out how feminist it is in the description, it really is not that feminist 😭🙏
It’s the equivalent of “I’m a gentleman”
They're too embarrassed to call it what it really is, Young Adult Chick Lit.
I hate the idea of Penelope getting news of Odysseus' journey. Her whole character arc was about her courage, loyalty, and persistence in the face of 10 years without news from her beloved husband. Is he alive? Where is he he? Has he abandoned her? Nevertheless, she toils on, preserving her household as long as possible.
I don’t know how this ended up on my feed, but I am so pleased it did. It’s such an insightful analysis that gives voice to a lot of the feelings I have when reading these retellings. Great video!
So glad you enjoyed it!!🥰
I think there's also a bias towards medieval history to portray it as neglectful of female voices and want to reinvent it for modern women. A lot might not be as well known as male figures and writers but they won't get anywhere always being a shadow to well known male figures. I'd probably be interested in a story of Penelope having to negotiate with different suitors who mirror the monsters Odysseus weaves through but I care less of her just hearing about what her husband has been doing and then commenting on that over her personal life or getting jealous.
oooh! that Penelope negotiating with suitors that mirror Odysseus' monsters idea is a really cool concept!
Couple thousand years off from being medieval but I like the sentiment
Why do you use the word medieval?
@@annaselbdritt7916 Referring to the time period between roughly 475AD to late 1600s, usually characterized as the time between Roman rule and the age of enlightenment. It also doesn't get a good reputation with "womens rights" either because of simpler standards or just focusing more on later eras or putting more importance on current year.
@@Petrico94 Yeah I followed your train of thought, you were making a comparison
I don't like the "cultural appropriation" argument because thousands of years of art would never exist if people didn't get inspired by the stories and cultures of other people.
That's kind of ignorant tho... my best friend is Greek and she is so bothered on how America stole Greek mythology and misformed it into something that just isn't what it was meant to be in order to get money. Just makee your own stories it's stupid to steal from cultures that aren't your own. My best friend is very passionate about the subject and every "reteling" is just stolen Greek history that you took in order to get buyers that like the original story so yes it is cultural appropriation and I'm so glad someone is talking about this
@@tr.ns_overlord3798the culture of modern Greece doesn’t even remotely resemble the culture of Ancient Greece. Culture doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It’s created by the influence of other cultures. Breathing new life into old myths is a tale as old as the Romans.
@@tr.ns_overlord3798 Womp womp
@@pisces2569Not exactly-just because the Greek people are obviously different in the present day does not erase that those myths and folklore are our cultural history. Westerners(particularly Americans) taking these stories and ripping them away for their own purpose sucks, as it contributes to a long standing issue of not affording cultural sanctity. Greek history, culture, myth, language, etc are not afforded sanctity-are not allowed to be sacred. It sucks, and it is appropriative.
The idea is that they’re not inspired by these stories… they’re cannibalizing it.
These authors could create their own stories with new characters and tell epic tales in ancient Greece. Instead they take these stories to write fan fiction, but are not inspired by the stories, they just wear it like a skin.
More and more of these stories means people will be confused as to what was the actual story, meaning that each “retelling” diminishes the original.
Clytemnestra's "feminist" fans not throwing Cassandra under the bus challenge (impossible).
Clytemnestra to Cassandra be like: "I'm gonna kill you because you're dangerous (despite the fact no one believes you). But you must understand. I lost my daughter."
Cassandra (who was cursed by Apollo, captured by Agamemnon, lost her family and her whole city): "That's rough sis."😐
Either way tho, Agamemnon SUCKS
"Clytemnestra has been "villainized" by the original myths" my ass. It's like these so-called feminist writers are afraid of women characters having flaws.
Well, Clytemnestra killed Cassandra because she wanted to stick it to Agamemnon, and her two sons posed a threat to Orestes for the throne of Mycenae ...
@@genevieve7676She was, though. Read The Oresteia by Aeschylus. Orestes was acquitted for murdering her because mothers aren't real parents, according to Apollo and Athena ...
I knoew we had too many greek retellings when that YA author who sold her retelling of The Odyssey to Harper Collins admited she never actually read The Odyssey before... sorry but how do you plan on retelling something or saying something new if you don't know the source material? I don't know if it was anti-inctellectualism or just laziness but it was too much
Who was the author?
@@CsnvLsRnst Sarah Underwood
WHAAAT??? how. how. how. i- good gods above.
@@CsnvLsRnstThe book is Lies We Sing to the Sea by Sarah Underwood
IIRC it wasn't supposed to be a retelling of The Odyssey though? Just a very very small segment of it focused on some extremely minor characters, but her publisher marketed it as one anyways. I also think her interview said she never read the *entire* Odyssey, not that she'd never read it at all
Oooh this just put into words everything i've been thinking about the retellings and "new takes" of these myths and stories. I genuinely feel these come from ignorance and just, not knowing the actual myths but knowing the general plots
Omg YES this exactly!!!!!
I'm not gonna lie, considering the video explicitly points out that many of these authors are literal classisists, who have both read and studied the original myths for years if not decades before writing their novels, this feels like a very oversimplified and just... incorrect take. Clearly, one can be *very* knowledgable on the classics and still write a flawed retelling. Idk, it might be true for lore olympus (though i don't know enough about its author to say for sure) but every other book discussed here clearly comes from a point of extensive knowledge, and is yet flawed.
@@evi6629bruh but retelling is just stupid and unneeded imo.
Pat Barker lost me on a word 'okay' in a f*cking ancient greece. I'm not even a native english speaker but I know this word did not really exist till 16th century or so. Also, using verb 'to f*ck'. Her 'Silence of the girls' feels like bitter rumbling I can't even force myself to finish. Briseis doesn't feel like nobility. I really hate this 'feminist' depiction of strong women as bitter and angry nags.
I liked Circe though, the tragedy of unrequited love of main character and loneliness resonated with me so much that I cried. She feels more like a 'strong woman' without being an absolute killjoy.
Percy Jackson has caused irreversible damage to greek mythology (no hate to Percy Jackson, I'll aways fw the books and hero's of Olympus. But It's quite clear that a lot these authors probably came out of reading those books when they were younger with the idea that Riordans depictions were somehow the template for modern greek gods, when Riordan just did his best to modernise them and encouraged reader's to explore the original mythology themselves).
I don't remember who said it (maybe Harold Bloom?), but I remember a quote along the lines of "a feminist or marxist critique of Shakespeare can tell us a lot about feminism or marxism, but it tells us very little about Shakespeare."
These books tell us more about the preoccupations of modern society than about the works they're based on.
The genuinely good ones that transcend their times will hopefully survive on their own merits.
I mean isn't that the point ? Most of the source material is myths, not written stories.
@@washada you probably should read the source material.
It used to float around my head everytime I would hear stuff about feminist readings of classical works.
Most of the time, it's not really connected at all to what happened in the works, but just someone's perspective bleeding into a story. their perspective is fine, but it's got the same level of validity if I just went through Hamlet under an antisemitic lens lmao. it's all just subjective blah blah blah.
Only time will tell which of these retellings will make it. Kind of hope that someone retells hephaestus's story and life, he's my favourite greek god and arguably one of the most compassionate.
@@washada So... You just want a fantasy story that you know is vaguely connected to something that came before, perhaps one in the current zeitgeist, and you do not care if it follows the source or even respects it?
You are Netflix Witcher fan, aren't you? Perhaps you thought Rings of Power was 10/10?
@@jesustyronechrist2330 Ovid's Metamorphosis is a modern retelling of the ancient Hellenistic myths, which often interpret of fully reshape the source material in order for the author to speak his ideas to the people of his time.
The changes can go from simply shifting character motivations, to wholly inventing new stories which affect the depictions of the mythological figures; like Athenea being jealous of Arachne's talents, or Poseidon raping Medusa -elements not observed in previous versions of the stories.
And by "modern" I mean the year 8CE. Because retelling stories with modern sensitivities and goals is as old as... storytelling.
*Greek Mythology lover here!!! Here are some things to consider about Hades and Persephone:*
1- The original hymn to Demeter goes on its way to relieve Hades of all responsibility and puts all the blame on Zeus, since he was the one who arranged the marriage without informing either Demeter or Persephone.
2- Hades' actions in this story are all in line with what would be expected of a wedding in ancient Greece:
Ancient Athenian weddings began with the bride being taken to the groom’s house in a chariot. The groom would give the bride gifts, and the families would feast together. During the ceremony, the bride would eat a piece of fruit given to her by her husband, to signify that her needs were now going to be provided by him. After this ceremony, the marriage was consummated.
3- The reason why the whole thing is treated as a kidnap is because neither Demeter nor Persephone were informed about the marriage. That also explains why Persephone was so scared and confused when it all happend.
4- There is no real evidence that Persephone was ill-treated, abused, or in general badly treated by Hades; in fact, the Homeric Hymn to Demeter directly mentions that Persephone was a guest of honour in Hades’ household.
5- In the Claudian poem "De Raptu Proserpine", while Hades is driving to the underworld, Persephone cries and complains for her fate. Hades feels sorry about his action and comforts Persephone by wiping her tears, and then promises her royal power and a good marriage. After that, we are told that Hades is no longer a gloomy frightening figure, but a smiling kind god.
("The tears he wiped away with his murky cloak, quieting her sad grief with these soothing words: Cease, Proserpine, to vex thy heart with gloomy cares and causeless fear. A prouder sceptre shall be thine, nor shalt thou face marriage with a husband unworthy of thee.")
6- When Hades gets informed about the famine Demeter was causing, he allows Persephone to return to her mother while also proposing to her. He promises her he'll be a good husband and offers her equal rulership over the underworld.
("Go now, Persephone, to your dark-robed mother, go, and feel kindly in your heart towards me: be not so exceedingly cast down; for I shall be no unfitting husband for you among the deathless gods, that am own brother to father Zeus. And while you are here, you shall rule all that lives and moves and shall have the greatest rights among the deathless gods: those who defraud you and do not appease your power with offerings, reverently performing rites and paying fit gifts, shall be punished for evermore.")
7- After his proposal and before Hermes takes Persephone away, Hades stealthily gives her pomegranate seeds to eat. She eats them, consummating their marriage. (Obs: We can infer that she did this willingly since the Hymn calls Persephone "wise / high-minded" and Greek mythology says that gods don't get hungry and don't require food such as mankind does.)
8- Persephone herself says later that Zeus had given her to Hades with "métis" (wisdom), showing that she was transformed by her time with Hades, and now believed him to be a fitting husband.
9- Many ancient sources support the idea of Hades and Persephone loving each other:
(Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 29): "Plouton (Hades) fell in love with Persephone."
(Virgil, Georgics 1. 36 ff [Roman bucolic C1st B.C.]): “Tartarus hopes not for you as king, and may such monstrous lust of empire never seize you, though Greece is enchanted by the Elysian fields, and Proserpine reclaimed cares not to follow her mother.” --> Persephone prefers to stay with Hades than returning to her mother.
(Lucan, Pharsalia, VI): "[...] to Persephone who shuns her mother in heaven [...] I shall tell the world the nature of that food which confines Persephone beneath the huge weight of earth, the bond of love that unites her to the gloomy king of night, and the defilement she suffered, such that her mother would not call her back." --> Persephone is directly mentioned to have a dislike towards her mother Demeter and is specifially mentioned to have a bond of love with Hades.
(Ovid, Metamorphoses, X): It is directly mentioned by the character Orpheus that Hades and Persephone are united in love.
10- In the artistic depictions (vase paintings, other texts and etc.) where Hades and Persephone are shown together, they are always shown to be happy. Persephone is never portrayed as a miserable wife and Hades is never portrayed as a cruel husband.
11- Plato / Socrates had this to say about the two of them:
"You see they change the name to Persephone and its aspect frightens them. But really the name indicates that the goddess is wise; for since things are in motion, that which grasps and touches and is able to follow them is wisdom. Pherepapha, or something of that sort, would therefore be the correct name of the goddess, because she is wise and touches that which is in motion and this is the reason why Hades, who is wise, consorts with her, because she is wise." (Cratylus dialogue - Plato).
12- If you read all this, you are a legend!
Unfortunately a number of your points about the Homeric Hymn to Demeter are wrong. There absolutely *is* evidence that Persephone was ill-treated by Hades: the Hymn states that when Hermes finds her in the Underworld, Persephone is Hades’ παράκοιτις (a term for wife that literally means “beside” + “bed”; Gregory Nagy translates it as “bedmate”). When you take this with the following lines 344-345, describing Persephone as “the one who was much under duress, yearning for her mother, and suffering from the unbearable things inflicted on her by the will of the blessed ones”, the heavy implication is that Hades has raped her.
Moreover, we cannot infer that Persephone ate the pomegranates seeds willingly. In fact, the text very clearly states the opposite: Persephone herself says that Hades “compelled me by βία [physical force/violence] to eat of it” (line 413).
I have some further contention with the rest of the points you've made, but since that's more about source interpretation in the context of the misogyny of ancient Greece and Roman, I thought I'd just stick to noting some of the factual inaccuracies in this comment! I’m also interested in your point about Persephone being directly mentioned as a guest of honour in Hades’ household. I can’t seem to find this in any of the translations of the Hymn that I’ve read?
I was a big fan of Greek mythology (but never properly learned Latin and never even started greek, so now I´m devoted to westerns)). Anyway, I don´t get revisionist takes on myth while authors know nothing about ancient customs and morality. I love the dialogue over Oedipus in The Thorn Birds, and how Christianity changes our understanding of right and wrong. Yes, it is a hard thing but morality changes. I believe we still could have good retellings, actually, most famous antic tragedies retold myths and had different views on who should be blamed.
That was a really interesting read, thank you!
What do you mean she wasn't miserable?? This is literally written at the end of the hymn (τέτμε δὲ τόν γε ἄνακτα δόμων ἔντοσθεν ἐόντα, ἥμενον ἐν λεχέεσσι σὺν αἰδοίῃ παρακοίτι πόλλ᾽ ἀεκαζομένῃ μητρὸς πόθῳ - "there he found the lord in his palace sitting on a bed with his bashful bedmate, very much unwilling, longing for her mother").
Not only is she crying for her mother but also is called an "unwilling bedmate".
@@N.I.A23 That quote is not from "the end of the hymn", that's from the moment when Hermes - following the orders of Zeus -goes to the underworld to retrieve Persephone (verse 340 of the hymn). At that point, Persephone had stayed with Pluto (Hades) for quite a long time and was deeply missing her mother, that being the reason for her suffering.
Some of the most reliable translations we have today of this hymn, translate this part of the text to: "and he found the Lord (Hades) inside his palace, seated on a funeral couch, along with his duly acquired bedmate". There is absolutely no suggestion of rape in this part of the text or in any part of the hymn whatsoever.
After Hermes tells Hades about Zeus' orders, he happily allows Persephone to return to her mother while also proposing to her. He promises to be a fitting husband and offers her (a woman) equal rulership of the underworld (something that would look absurd on the context of ancient greece).
"Hadês, King of the Dead, smiled with his brows, and he did not disobey the order of Zeus the King. Swiftly he gave an order to bright-minded Persephone." (cf. I. 355)
""Go, Persephone, to your mother, the one with the dark robe. Have a kindly disposition and thûmos in your breast. Do not be too upset, excessively so. I will not be an unseemly husband to you, in the company of the immortals. I am the brother of Zeus the Father. If you are here, you will be queen of everything that lives and moves about, and you will have the greatest tîmai in the company of the immortals. Those who violate dikê will get punishment for all days to come those who do not supplicate your menos with sacrifice, performing the rituals in a reverent way, executing perfectly the offerings that are due." So he spoke. And high-minded Persephone rejoiced." (cf. I. 360 - 370)
36:06 when you have some knowledge of how marriage worked back then it’s also just incredibly heartbreaking and bittersweet
This is at least one mother/daughter duo who was actually reunited
Not so old. There's a Greek story from last century about a groom's mother who told him to just punch his new bride to shut up her crying on the wedding night. It is not so unusual that women's feelings mattered as much as the livestock's.
@@Badficwriter that’s terrifying. My comment was more about how when a woman marries she never sees her first family again typically
@@Badficwriter If women's feelings didn't matter, as you say, there wouldn't be any laws protecting women in ancient Greece. But there were. Read the laws of Lycourgos for Sparta and the laws of Solon for Athens.
@@locusta-bw2vdBut to what extent were these laws actually protecting women has people VS protecting what men views as their properties.
@@locusta-bw2vdit was never about the protection of women (people) as individuals. it was about the protection of women (daughters, wives) as property. even sparta, in which women trained and married as adults, only allowed them those "rights" because they (well, rightfully) believed healthier women produced healthier children.
i remember picking up ariadne by jennifer saint and being so confused and disappointed? like, ariadne is a mortal woman from greek mythology that actually gets a happy ending, yet this allegedly "feminist" retelling actively takes that away from her. also, the conflation of the roman poet ovid's account of medusa's origins into greek mythology specifically will never not annoy me. yes, greek and roman mythology have many similarities, but there are many differences as well, and it's important to make that distinction when it's necessary. and when you have a detail that only appears in roman accounts (that we know of) and not greek, calling it greek mythology is just inaccurate.
Oh I HATED Ariadne. That whole saga is my favourite myth and it seemed that at every single turn, Saint fundamentally misunderstood what the myth was about in order to reduce the story to "men bad," the most boring possible interpretation of a wonderfully interesting and complex myth with many bad men, but many fascinating bad women and other twists and turns as well.
I will defend the more sympathetic backstory of Medusa simply because 1) as you pointed out, it could very well be Greek in origin but any documentation verifying this could have been lost to time 2) there are countless variations to myths and legends so to say one is "incorrect" is absurd, there is no definitive version to oral traditions passed down through the centuries and 3) it's very compelling and frankly a lot more interesting than her just being one particular gorgon.
@@benjamintillema3572 then just say roman mythology. that's my issue here. i'm not saying that it's "incorrect" wholecloth, and i dislike you implying that i did. i'm saying that referring to it as GREEK mythology is incorrect as the oldest extant source we have for that version of events is ovid's metamorphoses. we don't just decide that it's greek in origin because we like the vibes better; every extant greek source that references medusa's origins at all is pretty clear that she's simply a gorgon from birth. human priestess medusa who was cursed by minerva is roman in origin, so people saying that she was cursed by athena are actually incorrect. again, ancient greece and rome have many similarities in culture and mythology, but they aren't the same and the distinction is important.
also, your point about it being "very compelling and more interesting" is subjective.
Honestly I just think Jennifer Saint is a poor author - Elektra by her was boring, repetitive and just frustrating. Wouldn't recommend
@@tillydavvers yea i also thought ariadne was really boring 😭, but i wanted to stick to my criticisms of it as a mythological retelling. the sections with phaedra where more intriguing and more entertaining.
If I never see another retelling or story of any kind centred around Hades/Persephone, it will be too soon.
"There is no escape."?
@@Duiker36what’s that?
@@clown-cult96the death screen from the video game "Hades", which is perhaps not very surprisingly a retelling of the story of Persephone and Hades
I highly suggest Hades. I know that this particular myth is overdone (I agree) but that game slays on so many levels.
@@princeapoopoo5787 It's also not strictly about the myth of Hades and Persephone. It loosely uses the story as a framing device to tell its own story about connection, family, purpose, and forgiveness, all while being a general celebration of these larger than life stories and characters. 10/10 will always recommend
21:16 credit to this author for mentioning the men and boys who were viciously killed and had their heads mounted on sticks, acknowledging it wasn’t just women who were victims
You perfectly summed up my issues with this genre, and your insights were so fascinating to hear and I wholeheartedly agree with them! Fantastic video overall, your argument and analysis were so well said!
Thank you!! So glad it resonates with you💜
Thank you for this. Being a Greek woman comes with constantly having to reconcile the mixed messages and complexity of my heritage. Yes, ancient Greece was largely patriarchal and Athens especially was really sexist and yes, inevitably that bled into many of the surviving myths and stories. But even so, there's also so much to love about them just as they are. So many of these fictional women are important to me- being inspiring and terrible, human and strangely comforting. It's always a weird experience to pick up a modern version of the story meant to uplift them, only for it to treat them overall less kindly than the original story or for them to feel less human than they did thousands of years ago because they didn't really understand the assignment or cultural context.
When I try to talk about this with people, I feel like I sometimes struggle wording it in a way that doesn't make me sound like I dislike retellings written by non-Greeks BECAUSE they are written by non-Greeks. It's just... these stories are very personal to me and I feel like more often than not there's no room left for me in them anymore. They are very clearly about some other people, some other culture. When they are brought to modern times, they take whatever Greek thing of interest and bring it to America, involving few to no Greek people. When they take place in ancient Greece, it's often a Greece that I can't recognize. And don't get me started on the christianized nonsense. Like how Hades is made to be a mustache twirling villain because to christians he's the closest thing to a Satan equivalent (EXTREMELY inaccurate) or how 90% of Hades and Persephone retellings these days are just "virginal, repressed woman escapes puritanical environment and has to fix a sad man who liberates her with s*x". Like. Y'all can write christian mom erotica and leave our myths out of it, thanks.
Anyway, thank you for tackling this issue and its effects with so much empathy. Westerners are so used to this narrative that by virtue of being European or American they share some sort of inherent connection with (and therefore have some kind of ownership over) Greek history and folklore that it's a pleasant surprise to see someone who isn't Greek call it out for what it is: cultural appropriation and exploitation. Even more so for acknowledging our long, long history of being colonized.
I'm not Greek (I'm from another Mediterranean country), and I only studied Greek a couple of years, so I'm no expert at all, but often, when I read these "retellings", I can feel how fundamentally American they are (so far they've all been from authors from the USA), and I'm kept wondering why. Why take myths that aren't yours and twist them to fit your own culture in such a bizarre way? Why the female characters feel more one-dimensional, are often talked badly about or made antagonistic or down right villainous in the supposedly "feminist" retelling?
I'm not saying these books shouldn't exist, but they're profoundly alienating for me and they keep me wanting something else.
I can only understand a minimal fraction of the frustration you may feel, but I guess I just wanted to show you my sympathy, because when I've tried to talk about the appropriation angle and such, I've always been faced with disbelief, and being a non-Greek I was feeling that maybe i'm just imagining things, but your comment shows that no. It's actually important to not use other's peoples cultures and histories lightly.
Sorry if I'm rumbling too much. I'm sleep deprived 😅. Take care and thanks for sharing your perspective!
Greek culture, history, language, etc has never been afforded sanctity. That’s been our problem over and over, we are never allowed to keep our things sacred
@@BigBadWolframio Thank you for the kind words ❤️ I wanted to make clear that I don’t think those books shouldn’t exist either because I didn’t really mention it! I’m even fond of some adaptations that don’t really have anything to do with accuracy to the original text or culture. I’m just trying to explain why retellings are so often not for me as a Greek person and why that might be an issue if you look at our history. That being said, I’m not wishing for any of these authors’ houses to burn down lol.
Also, your experience with trying to talk about this to people rings true to mine. It’s not uncommon to be dismissed and shut down unfortunately. When trying to explain that we have centuries worth of history being culturally appropriated and exploited by Europe (and later America) as well as colonised by several different powers one after the other I’ve gotten the “sis, white people aren’t oppressed lmao” treatment. For a lot of people we are too white to have the right to be a part of discussions about colonisation and cultural theft, meanwhile hilariously for some Europeans (Western Europeans usually) of certain political beliefs we aren’t white enough to belong with them, so they’ve been appropriating our stuff while simultaneously inventing reasons why we aren’t “real” Greeks and why they have more of a claim to our history than we do.
Anyway, sorry for the tangent. Appreciate all the empathetic, insightful comments. You take care too ❤️
@@chiefpurrfect8389 As an Irish person I completely relate haha. Colonization doesn't stop at skin colour! And the amount of times I've seen Irish mythology very obviously misused in fantasy books/shows just makes me roll my eyes. Although I make no pretense that Irish people still actively suffer from racialization, a lot of white non-irish (im looking at the Americans who like to claim their one irish great-great grandparent lol) don't understand how a lot of myths are tied to Irish oppression and how there are still deep-rooted effects of colonization in Ireland today 🤷♀
@@megan7843 Wolfwalkers is a good example of how Irish mythology is combined with the impact that colonization had on the nation. However, many people especially Americans probably didn't even notice that particular aspect of the film for they don't really know what effect Cromwell and his Puritan idealism had on Ireland. Although, knowing Americans Cromwell would probably be a hero in the eyes of certain Christian groups here, since America has been founded by Protestant cults and Puritans were one of those groups.
Thank you for this! I remember reading the Homeric Hymn to Demeter and was struck by how powerful it was. As you said, it really is a story of women helping women, such as Hecate supporting Demeter throughout her search and the mortal women who comforted Demeter without even knowing she was a goddess. It's also interesting how the whole root of the problem was caused by a father (Zeus) deciding on his daughter's marriage without consulting or even telling her mother. And although bittersweet the ending is mostly a happy one and a victory for Demeter and Persephone, because often women were effectively cut off from their birth families when they married but Persephone gets to stay with her mother 2/3 of the year.
I think Demeter's character assassination in modern Hades/Persephone stories is a classic case of the Death Eater Ron Trope, in which an originally benign character is turned evil in fanfiction because the author wanted to turn an originally villainous character into the hero/love interest but needs another villain to achieve that purpose. (also they might simply dislike said benign character) The mysterious and dangerous older rich man/innocent virgin trope has always been popular after all, but since readers don't like to be confronted with the obviously rapey connotation of the Hades and Persephone myth (I mean it was rape even by ancient standards) Demeter has to be vilified, for it was her fury and journey that is a clear reminder that the abduction was anything but consensual. Also possible is that teenage/young adult women are deflecting issues against their own mothers on Demeter, which I guess is a choice but not really fair to the goddess.
If you're interested in more thoughtful interpretation I recommend Stray Gods, which is by no means a perfect game (like why does it have such unmemorable music when it's supposed to be a musical game and the protagonist is a Muse?😭) but I do like the thought and artistic choices put into interpretating Greek gods and how they would survive in a modern setting. With Persephone in particular there seems to have been a deliberate attempt to move away from the popular Dark Romance yassification.
Most of the problem is that writers started applying the logic of Grimm's Fairy Tales to the Hymn to Demeter which completely changed the expected protagonist to the 'Princess' type. Then nobody bothered reading the actual Hymn because its not that kind of story at all.
The brother's Grimm were obsessed with proving that Germans and Greeks once had similar cultures and that German folk tales were evolved from Greek-like myths but modern narratives seem to demand the opposite and read Fairy tale archetypes into a completely different story telling tradition.
My thing is is that the roots of people's quote on quote beef with Demeter is the fact that her creation of winter is viewed as an unfair punishment against the broader span of humanity because like you said even though she was helped by other Mortal women she still punished them alongside their husbands and countless generations of their children with cold and bitter Winters; in the ancient and Medieval World, winters were extremely brutal as they were oftentimes seen as life or death.
So I believe the general dislike against her often is rooted in the fact that we resent the fact of winter time coming and that we cannot enjoy spring and summer eternally.
the music in Stray Gods rules >:0
@@annabaker8137 Demeter doesn't create winter that's a misreading.
Bitter cold winters don't occur in Ancient Greece and have nothing to do with mediteranian climates. In the mediteranian the Winter season is the wet season required for growing crops latter in the year.
The dividing up of the year due to the pomegranite seeds is about storing and planting crops the seasonal element is secondary.
The Homeric Hymn is about the institution of Grain agriculture its not a seasonal myth that's a Victorian attempt to make all myths into protoscience.
Ancient calenders show that the part of the year Kore/Persephone spends in the underworld is non-contiguos it doesn't represent winter. Kore enters the underworld first when the seeds are planted, returns as harvestable corn, is harvested and returns to the underworld as corn stored in granaries and then returns to be consumed.
Since the granaries are emptied precisely to help farmers survive the parts of the year without food Demeter doesn't 'withhold' food during that part of the year. The hungry always rejoice WITH Demeter at the sight of Kore they don't blame her since without her grain was never planted in the first place.
@@AC-dk4fp will I understand where you're coming from I quite frankly disagree with you Demeter's part in this tale is to teach women how NOT to behave when their daughters are married off (AKA sold off) to older men that was predetermined by their fathers and grandfathers without the say or consent of the mother oftentimes within Greek society; especially among Athenians, girls who were married off oftentimes never saw their mothers again.
The point of the myth of Hades and Persephone, as I see it is to teach girls to accept their transition from maidenhood to Womanhood.
One of the earliest myths has Hades and Zeus deciding about who to take Persephone's hand in marrige the beginning of the story; with Zeus agreeing to allow Hades to pursue her without consulting Demeter or even Persephone herself; as is what happens in real life especially in the Hellenic world- mothers were rarely ever given the opportunity or chance to see their daughters again especially in where Homer is from, Athens.
The Hamiltoninification of history
God Hamilton is one of the best and worst things to have ever happened
@@smugwendigo5123 I'd just say worst, but to each their own lol
miku binder
@@littleballofdarknessTM ANCIENT SINS, ANCIENT SINS...
Wait till you hear about Epic there musical
People never acknowledge that the story of Medusa being assaulted by Poseidon and unfairly cursed is not the original story. Instead it was written by a Roman guy hundreds of years after the original stories would have been passed around in religious tellings, and he had a real bone to pick with Roman authority and government so he basically wrote a fanfic of Greek mythology portraying the gods as being evil and featuring the abuse of power. In the original story Medusa legitimately just did consensually hook up with Poseidon, in some stories she hooked up with him directly in Athena’s temple, so she got cursed. It’s like if hundreds of years from now people look back on the Percy Jackson stories and say “oh look at this accurate depiction of what the ancient Greeks believed, look at these genuine mythological stories of the gods being evil”
I also heard that Medusa might have even just being something that exists like the other gorgon sisters and was inly made into a cursed human later on. Though the validity of these claims is hard to define.
@@victory8928 Yeah, she was the Gorgon's sister from the start. Her 'curse' was being part mortal.
Wasn't Medusa just a random ass gorgon that was just born so ugly that it turned people into stone? She even had sisters in the version of the myth I know, never heard of her being human at any point before the internet.
I have no idea where you're getting that from. Medusa was around before Ovid's Metamorphoses but she was just a gorgon existing with the curse of mortality. Ovid took the character and gave her a backstory that fit his theme of (and you'll never guess this one) metamorphosis. The backstory just so happened to be violent and unfair. It feels like you haven't read Metamorphoses because there are plenty of stories with the gods being merciful and the humans being purely evil. There are happy endings assisted by the gods. If you can give me a primary source for your 'original story' that tells of a past that resembles the one you have described, I'll happily say I'm wrong.
what roman guy?
15:58 “The teacher who taught me Greek” “graduate with my classics degree”-she was taught (if it actually means language wise) ancient Greek. I always hate this. Greek people exist TODAY, and speak Greek. Authors like this always act like present day Greek people don’t exist.
YES and I wish modern Greek literature was give a spotlight too. We have so many amazing poets and writers; Elytis, Cavafy, you name it. All with fabulous narratives and poems that grasp onto such pure senses of life. I wish more people appreciated and saw how modern Greece has value and our culture wasn't overshadowed by the past.
Once again, the specter of white supremacy rears its ugly head. This notion of Greeks being rendered extinct and supplanted by what some consider a 'dirtier,' 'tainted' people traces back to the 1800s, notably illustrated by the ideas of Fallmerayer. It wasn't until the late 1940s that Greeks began to be widely recognized as white. The myth of Greek extinction gained further traction following Greece's liberation from the Ottomans. Europeans had long appropriated the ancient Greeks as their own, viewing them as a foundation for the white world's historical legitimacy. However, with the sudden emergence of a nation identifying as Greek, rightfully claiming its ancient history, efforts were made to disassociate them.
The notion that ancient and modern Greeks are distinct peoples reflects a white supremacist ideology, suggesting that their lineage has been 'tainted' through contact with other ethnicities, thus altering their essence. However, the concept of a people unified by blood is inherently supremacist. The ancient Greeks did not conceive of 'Greekness' as inherent in blood or skin color. As Isocrates observed in the 5th century in his 'Panegyricus,' Greeks were defined by a shared culture and language. These cultural and linguistic elements have naturally evolved over time, as language and culture always do. Even in the 5th century, they were not static. Therefore, 'Greekness' transcends biological lineage or physical appearance. Going with the logic of the white supremacists the ancient Greeks themselves where not Greek.
@@uonigiroyou took it from my mouth, well said
yeah, it's like Ancient Chinese and Modern Mandarin aren't the same thing too, and a lot of Chinese can't read the texts, and the pronunciations are probably already lost.
I've heard the term "Hellenophile" used to refer to people like this - academics who are obsessed with classical antiquity and don't care for the extant people who inherited their cultures
Ah yes:
The Yaas-sification of Greek myths.
this deserves many more views. as an actual greek person thank you for being respectul and actually knowledgeable about our history. i loved your video so so much. the last quote made me cry
wow, this means so much💜💜 thank you so much, I'm so glad you enjoyed it
I’m half Greek and this video helps to decide what book to read.
really loved your essay! i like how you addressed how ancient greek myth and religion is used as an 'easy' backdrop, without considering the cultural significance of the myth!
that being said, one of my favourite mythological retellings is an adaptation of medea called 'savage beasts' by rani selvarajah. it's set in the mid 1700s where medea is from calcutta and jason is british. it charts their relationship from beginning to end, and it uses the new context to comment on colonialism in india and south africa. for me at least, any anachronism is less glaring as it takes place neither in ancient greece nor the modern day, without losing sense of euripides' intensity.
That book sounds fantastic!! I'm very drawn to mythic retellings which explore the ideas and themes of a myth in a new setting. Adding it to my reading list💛
Bruh that's kinda cringe, not you, but the retelling you mentioned
@@JustAGuySlayingDragons how is it cringe? think of it like hadestown and how orpheus and eurydices story were reframed into a sorta industrial setting. or for non-greek myth examples, the lunar chronicles with fairy tales in a scifi setting. its just another way to retell the story.
Reminds me of the Romeo & Juliet movie with Leonardo DiCaprio where it was pseudo modern and they used handguns in place of swords. Shockingly decent movie
Thank you for the rec! I’m Indian and a greek myth lover but never heard of this one! Adding it to my tbr immediately
Wow you were able to say what I’ve been trying to put into words for so long in such an insightful and interesting way, I loved this video!
I'm so glad! Thank you so much💕
As a lifelong fan of Greek Mythology writing a thesis on the topic for my history focus, please reupload this. It is a phenomenal video, and I’m unsure why it’s become a listed video. You’ve done fantastic research and make incredible points
It's listed now. She probably got a lot of hate for not conforming to the narrative.
The main issue with the genre is as you pointed out, the rampant cultural exploitation of ancient greece, and in similar vein, norse mythology as well. Our modern views cause us to lose our perspective of the reasons behind these ancient myths and we start to view them as an continuation of our own culture on which we can impose our ideas. We feel like these ancient European cultures are ours to be done with as we will, even though there are little actual connection between the cultures.
An excellent, thought-evoking video that touches on the hypocrisy of mythological rewriting, without attacking the authors at all. A fresh breeze for sure in a normally very polarized genre.
To be fair, that's always been the history of mythology. The Ancient Greek playwrights were 'appropriating' their culture's oral religious myths. In turn, the Romans reinterpreted the Greek myths to suit their purposes. The Medieval world did the same, then the Renaissance, and so on. Modern women writers are following a long and time-honoured legitimate tradition.
Could you explain what you mean when you say hypocrisy? In what way have they claimed something they don't live up to? They have not claimed to tell the ”true” story in any way, just their own version.
@@aliciabergman1252 I can't answer the specific question you asked, but I think that there's a problem when the retellings are the only version that we're exposed to. There's a risk of reinterpretations becoming the originals, and knowledge being lost over time. For example, I grew up with a version of the Persephone myth where Persephone picks a flower in a field that opens up a stairwell into the underworld and she willingly descends, becomes trapped after eating the pomegranate seeds, and becomes a powerful Queen of Hades and goddess of her own. I've seen this retelling and similar versions around the internet claiming that they're older versions of the myth and that the abduction part was added as Ancient Greece became more patriarchal; I haven't found a single modern academic source arguing for this though. I haven't found an Ancient Greek source for that version of the story either-- it's very likely that this version of Persephone's abduction was created during the mid-20th century as a feminist reclaiming of myth and history. These recenterings of women in myth were important for empowering women and it's a great story about claiming your power in life's darkest circumstances, but now 50-60 years later we're repeating it as if it's a fact that this is an Ancient Greek story.
@@perilouspigeon6613 isn’t that just the nature of stories, changing over time? For those wanting to know the originals they are available but overall stories change to reflect the time we live in. It’s a whole other thing entirely claiming to show ”the true story” of a historical event or person imo. The older version of Cinderella had very dark parts that have been cut out from most of the adaptations, they serve a purpose (mainly punishing the stepsisters) but are today viewed as too disturbing for children. I see nothing wrong with that so long as the original is available. As long as you’ve saved the family recipe that’s been passed down for generations nothing is lost by changing some ingredients when you want to make it💕
@aliciabergman1252 Family recipe??? Girl that's not your family though? And that's the point
Classicist Jean menzies (on UA-cam as Jean's Thoughts) has a great video essay about the origins of the modern perception of Hades and Persephone as a romance trope came from I loved especially how she traced back the history of the way that story has been told and retold across the centuries.
She similarly takes umbridge with the way Demeter is flatted to shrill helicopter mom in modern retellings.
name of video please!!
edit: I think i have found it but still let me know in case if you see this
Yeah she got kidnapped and raped by hades and then tricked into having to stay married to him and to visit him every year for months at a time
@@grimreapergal It's called "Why Hades and Persephone Aren't The Cute Couple You Think They Are"
Will check that out thanks even if I probably know a third of it already.
@@grimreapergal is shit video to be honest! she doesn´t mention that Persephone his the biggest dedicated to mariage, none of the sources of relationship after the marriage like Lucian Dialogues of Dead, she just said what everyone knows
I think you make excellent points here that must be considered and understood by responsible readers. I do also, however, think that "reclaiming" the voices of "lost" women isn't so much about filling in the blank for narratives that never were (because, as you point out, they WERE there all along) so much as it is a reclamation of the myth teller's identity. I'm coming at this as a folklorist, not a Classicist, so bear with me because I approach them from a different theoretical framework.
If retellings now are entirely too feminist, then retellings in the postmodern era have been entirely too patriarchal because these ancient stories have been told primarily by men in the past several centuries. Pat Barker isn't writing in response to the ancient source material, she is writing in response to how Achilles has been adapted and his story retold by 20th and 21st century men. This inference is strengthened by the fact that the majority of her novels are not Greek retellings at all, but novels written in or about the 20th century. She is clearly a feminist author whose agenda is to claim the right to tell old stories in a way that represents her ideas, but in that regard she's cut from the same cloth as Margaret Atwood. Basically, from a folkloristic framework, feminist retellings are totally justified so long as they are genuinely intended to convey some truth that informs the audience about a communal identity and value system.
Madeleine Miller, Natalie Haynes, Jennifer Saint, etc on the other hand are all authors who deal almost entirely in Greek retellings. They all benefit from each other's works and haven't deviated from their focuses because Greek retellings are their bread and butter. Therein lies the rub. While some of these authors are really good, it's pretty obvious between their debuts and their follow up novels that they are writing feminist retellings because that is what publishers want to sell. I'm thinking of the difference between Song of Achilles and Circe, the latter of which didn't seem to have the same passion as the first (I have not read The Women of Troy by Barker yet, but it may also disappoint). There is no dearth of mythological characters to pull from, and I imagine that re-imagining these narratives from their perspectives is endlessly fascinating as a writer. But... eventually this means the narratives are voided of any meaning. They cease to offer opportunities for perspective, whether that is an 8th century BCE or 21st century CE perspective, because "feminist retelling" is what sells and what publishers demand even when it contradicts the original myth, the values of the readers, the intent of the writers, or disrespects the culture of origin. This brings up the next point: is it ethical to profit off these stories, or are they so old that they're truly ubiquitous?
I think this is a great question, but I don't think it's all that simple to answer because our conceptualization of colonialism comes out of postmodern thought and while useful, is problematic in its own right because it disregards (at least in this case) the long history of cultural/ethnic dissemination in Europe. I 100% agree that authors from Greece should be at the forefront of the genre. I also 100% agree that Victorian Hellenism was SUPER problematic and that Greece has been torn to shreds in the name of misappropriation in the modern era. However, I feel like we're veering dangerously close into essentialism if we're going to dismiss all Greek retellings that aren't written by Greeks because we can't pinpoint the exact motivation behind the dissemination of Greek culture to non-Greeks. Was the Greek teacher enslaved in Rome wrong to teach the Roman children about his culture, or were the slaves who heard the stories wrong to pass along those stories that they overheard from a fellow slave?
The fact of the matter is that these stories have existed in the European psyche for so long that we can't fairly project a postcolonial interpretation on the intent of ancient people whose histories and narratives are incomplete (I mean, I would KILL to read Euhemerus or Pytheas of Massalia). It's really impossible to parse out what has been taken and what has been offered in good faith. I think the conclusion of Cosgrove's article leaves us with as few answers as we started with, but a fine compromise to consider, "we should be thoughtful and humble, listening and approaching any culture’s myths with a healthy dose of respect, even dread and wonder." I think these authors do that, but I think it's fair to place responsibility on them and their publishers to draw attention to Greek writers, and we as the audience need to seek those authors out.
Anyway, seriously... great video. I'm only sending you an essay because I think you've posed an intriguing argument that got my little myth-loving heart racing and I love the dialogue.
@@nony_mation Oh, no doubt! But what we define as "feminist" also changes over time as we critically reconsider its basic premises and found new schools of thought. I think it's fine to call things out and debate whether something is beneficial from a universally feminist approach, I suppose. It's also fine to suggest that ideas from a bygone era are are feminist even if the source of that cultural artifact would not understand the concept and may even argue against it, but then feminist criticism also has to come on a case by case basis and disagreement in method needs to be acknowledged. Discussions like this are great because they're based on ethics and not objectivity.
Love your thoughts here.
I’m an ex-medieval historian and have read plenty of medieval re-tellings of Greek myths, and they are all reflections of the values of their respective times and cultures. The same goes for these stories. They’re flawed in their own ways and although many readers probably won’t go on to seek the original material, some will. I think they’re a brilliant gateway.
This is an excellent comment, thank you so much for that interesting read!
@@lemueljr1496 I wish people would not be so blithe at the idea of changing definitions. While language does change, it is a natural evolution over time, while these changes in the definition of feminism seem to be based on what gets the current crop of academics some attention. Someone writes a paper and suddenly a word no longer means equality, it means supremacy. I am so sick of being told that a particular "wave" of opinion has overcome opinion havers and we all must agree a word doesn't mean what we grew up thinking it did. This isn't like science, where our schooling was inadequate to explain complexity, so it dumbed everything down to the point its all wrong.
Just as feminism is emptied of meaning when it is used wrongly/clumsily for the purpose of making money, academia loses its integrity and authority when theses are created to make media ripples and secure position.
as a Greek American girl who grew up on these myths, the thing that leaves the worst taste in my mouth is when retellings ignore, or worse seem outright hostile to, the culture that these stories sprung from. As much as people seem to like to think that Greek myths are an island of their own, untethered to any real tangible culture, the fact is that while the same deities aren’t widely worshipped anymore, modern Greece is the continuation of ancient Greece, and if you take the time to look, many superstitions and old habits have carried over from the old days. I love seeing people be so invested in a part of my culture, but it pains me that they only seem to like it when it’s divorced from that culture entirely.
Fascinating take! I do wonder what she thinks about the game Hades, which personifies all of the characters (they aren't just cardboard cutouts with functions) and advances the stories of those characters. I really loved it, as the people in the game felt like real people and most of their actions made a lot of sense.
Gosh, I wish I knew more about video games and was able to discuss it! I've only ever heard good things about Hades (one of my lecturers practically built an entire course around it lol.) Maybe video games will prove to be better than novels at retelling Greek myth in a truly unique way.
In a similar way, I knew the video was focused on literature, but I kept hoping for her take on the musical Hadestown because it's such an interesting mix of the topics discussed: interpreting the themes and characters from Greek myths into more modern contexts and with modern concerns in mind vs. respecting the original heart of the stories and the purposes they served, and why they continue to resonate (specifically when it comes to tragedies).
@@katealexandra8960I would say Hades is the best “feminist retelling” (putting that in heavy quotes because it’s not what I would call it, but it’s what others have) of mythology because it actually gives agency to the female characters and documents much of the ugly familial history the gods had together, both male and female. For example, Persephone is shaped out to be someone who wanted to stay with Hades because of the fact she didn’t feel at home on Mount Olympus, but then eventually chose to leave after the presumed death of her son. It erases a lot of the SA connotations of the Greek myth for a more modern approach of estrangement from her husband. Supergiant also went through the effort of making sure the gods weren’t related to each other like they are in Greek myth, since familial incest among the gods was used to justify the same thing in real Ancient Greek culture. (Also it’s just weird)
Especially for Hades II!!!
hades and hadestown are the only greek mythology adaptions i genuinely enjoy lol
Thank you for making such a detailed and articulate video essay which perfectly demonstrates the ick many of us Classics academics feel around the current Greek Retellings trend. Sometimes the academic community struggles with coming across as snobbish around retellings and that is such a shame, because myths are meant to be adapted and retold, they are a wonderfully elastic medium. The issue with BookTok retellings is that so many of them seem reductive, and instead of adding to the complex tapestry of mythology, reduce the characters to paper-thin Modern tropes.
"Feminist retelling." What was once an interesting idea on subverting old tropes is now a cliché trope itself for the writer to turn their AO3 stories they wrote while in college into published novels. Nothing against AO3 as a lurker 👀 for the site. I've just read enough stories on there to be able to spot the similarities between them and these BookTok Greek retellings.
I’m currently reading Circe and the reason why i love it is because it’s literally as it says it is: a retelling of her life. No added drama or emotions or anything, just detailed and descriptive retellings of her life. That’s it. And that’s why i love it so much.
bizarre that small yet relevant to interests video was shown to me by the vile yutub spirits but you are a good analyst, Ms. Alexandra. I do not feel misled.
haha, glad the algorithm's working well! Thank you so much😊
So glad this video was in my feed.. I remember thinking I wasn't interested in greek myth for years because I'd ever seen these kinds of re-tellings where everyone the authors try to imitate an ancient voice but fall flat because they fail to realise what makes things like greek myth and Shakespeare stand the test of time is because they resonate to an emotional core.
I remember reading Medea in highschool and being absolutely absorbed in it. I wrote an essay with ease, as I had so much to say. The pain, grief, intelligence, fury in Medea still stuns me to this day, because I've never seen a character more relatable. Smart women, who despite the mistreatment they receive, end up being their own worst enemy because they self sabotage in a misguided sense of justice and honour.
Then, we had to read some articles on Medea and if it were feminist and... I was not impressed. So many, and i do cringe saying this, but missed the point of Medea.
It was so ironic to me that in order to 'fix' Medea, so many of them made her a damsel in distress or stripped her of her agency. It still gets me how someone could read when Medea is offered her happy ending, and she rejects it because she decides an ending wherein Jason is happy is not one she can tolerate, and they couldnt feel such dread and catharsis. The fact that Medea is so cruel and in the wrong, yet so sympathetic and filled with pain, a character whom you root for but scream to beg for her not to do what she plans, seems pretty feminist to me already.
And the worst criticism that drives me mad, "Medea is anti feminist because shes a vindictive harpy who kills her kids and that's a misogynistic stereotype". Like, yes! But no! Yes, the wicked harpy who kills her kids is a misogynistic stereotype, very often when a writer wants an audience to hate a woman, she'll make them a bad mother, because a woman's maternal success reflects her worth a person.
But, one; mothers do kill their children. It can be portrayed in a misogynistic light, but mothers do in fact kill their kids, so the very act of portraying it is not inherently sexist.
Two; She gets away with it. She is not punished for this act, instead she is given a ride and a safe place to flee to, while her ex-husband is now in ruins.
Three; The killing of the children is thematic!! Obviously!! By thematic I dont mean allegory or metaphor, I just mean that we're meant to look at how this act effects the themes of the play rather than the logic of it.
Okay I could write a whole new essay on it, but to put ut bluntly; Medea killing her kids represented Medea killing a part of herself and killing the love that Jason had once given her. Yes, she kills her kids but her kids are not actual kids, they are devices to aid a plot.
Medea is a play that asks us to see how grief and abuse has made a woman cruel and coniving and asks us to sympathise with her, and see her win. Idk man, if that isn't feminist, at the very least on a "feminist catharsis" level then i do not care for what is.
Her killing the kids ultimately falls on Jason, who upended his own happiness and legacy because...? Medea wasn't a "real" Greek woman? Medea gave up EVERYTHING to help Jason, naturally she'd sacrifice everything again once he turned on her.
I could see Jason and Medea as a tale of a husband's fall into a dangerous rabbit hole (a la Q Anon) and his wife's traits that he originally fell in love with (including and especially her flaws) come back to bite him.
I read feminist retellings back in the 90's. MZB wrote a retelling of the Illiad, and Kerry Greenwood (the Phryne Fisher author) wrote a series of feminist retellings that included books based on Medea, Elecktra and Cassandra. There were probably feminist retellings before then, but I went to uni in the early 90's, so that's when I first read them.
and some much better than the current crop :) I did read Firebrand but not Kerry's.
MZB did a feminist retelling of Arthur too that was heavily marketed for a decade. But the modern retellers are smart not to bring her name up lol
You can't right a modern feminist retelling on Medea she is basically the main female girl boss in her story despite it being a tragedy she was thought to have a somewhat happy ending.
@@dylanwright9927 it's unfortunate that she did basically the only feminist retelling of Arthur. I mean what else is there. and she was so right about morgan being demonized, I see the queen of Avalon (heaven), a psychopomp to the land beyond the veil being killed by the male heroes, a 2d manipulative witch who is more evil than every man and am horrified.
Also, the begetting of Mordred, originally Merlin disguised Arthur as Lot to sleep with Morgause. Nowadays it's the opposite so that a man has no culpability and Morgan is a r-pist of a helpless powerless... king
Noo, why is this video unlisted... Pls don't do this, *this is a great video everyone should see it*
It founds its way into my feed, so I think it's not unlisted anymore
Loved this! Wasn’t expecting to get such great insight and perspectives tonight from what was to me a random video on my feed from a smaller channel. Got hooked by an interesting title and enjoyed every minute of it. I really hope your channel blows up.
Wow, thank you so much! So glad you enjoyed it💛
One reason i actually really like the hades and Persephone myth is because of Demeter. Maybe I'm missing them, but I i haven't read many myths that offers this perspective on something that actually happened. It's hard to describe. Like daughters were married off, or kidnapped, or both back then. There must have been actual women like Demeter, who tried their best to make sure their daughters were safe. Idk, it feels like she's giving a voice to a more conmon experience than a glorious warrior or fair princess. Especially since it isn't a modern retelling.
Although a modern story isnspired(not a retelling) would be pretty cool
I would read the shit out of a book that framed Hades and Persephone as an arranged marriage without Demeter's blessing, and that she worked her ass off to get nullified as a result. Honestly, a lot of the story as told already lends itself to a lot of lawyerly wrangling. Like, where the fuck did pomegranate seeds come in? That's so pointlessly arbitrary that it feels like it's from a set of rules we weren't told about.
@@Duiker36 So from what I remember and understand, once you eat something in the underworld you're bound to that realm.
I'm pretty sure in the story, Demeter is just upset she doesn't have her daughter's companionship.
Greek gods are consistently chill ❄ about their conflicts. So it makes sense it is not seeing her daughter that is her actual reason for being angry.
Thank you for this video. It's actually quite healing for me.
As a Greek woman, I feel like I've been gaslit a lot of my life about my own connection to my ancestors stories, to the point as if the connection doesn't exist at all. The elitism exists and it's not just in academia. I'm considered off-white to white people and too white to be POC but we as a culture, as a society, and even in our looks can differ from city to city... Greece is such a complex, colourful, and beautiful place that when I describe such a difference to the pristine white marble illusion that non-Greeks are used to I am shut down immediately. It is incredibly frustrating.
I walk into these books shops and get interested in the Greek titles only to see non-Greek names attached and realise that my history is currently a fashionable trend that can be monetized by everyone else but Greeks. But if Greeks try to monetize off our own culture, there is a particular stereotype thrust upon us... But that's a rant for another day...
Look, As a Brazilian, I say that classical literature was imposed on us through colonization. Obviously it wasn't the Greeks' fault, but Greek Literature was imposed as parameters for our literature, so I think it's fair that we can retell them
@@octaviohenrique6079 I'm not saying we shouldn't just venting a frustration
I have some bad news bud, you’re white
Imma be real, I wish Irish mythology generated the same interest. We at best see some stuff featuring stories about fairies and the actual extremely rich mythology cycles get short shrift. I'd spend decent money to see someone's take on queen maeve if it was well written
@@roflcopterIIII would also be glad if Queen Medb got a feminist retelling where she whooped Cu Chulainn's stupid ass, although that's just my personal feeling about the Ulster Cycle in general: it's an unbelievably frustrating read about violent dudes doing violent things, but such is to be expected from the literature of a society that depended on war for survival. I guess a really good retelling of the Ulster Cycle would navigate how the kings and warriors really feel about having to engage in all these conflicts because it's their duty to their people
As someone who has grown up and completed their education in Italy, it’s interesting to see that these stories are the gateaway for younger generation to connect with Greek mythology. The Odyssey and the Iliad are both part of the compulsory education in high school, and I don’t see why other Western countries, or countries influenced by ancient Greek culture, wouldn’t incorporate them in their curricula as well. I enjoy modern - sometimes bastardised - versions, but as you mentioned in the video it’s so important to understand the context and relevance of these Myths. Thank you for this super interesting video!
Yeah the first time I interacted with Greek mythology was hades and persephone in acting lessons when I was 8
In Bulgaria, the Iliad, the Oddysey and other Ancient Greek works are part of the highschool curriculum as well. :)
Apologies if you mention this in the video, I’m only about 6 minutes in, give or take, but it’s very strange to me how none of the writers of “feminist” retelling ever focus on a play about women, that could be seen as proto feminist, The Trojan Women.
yes or Demeter. Even Madeline's Miller's next work is apparently focusing on Hades & Persephone rather than Demeter. I just find it so odd.
A thousand ships, the first book talked about, does. the afterword clearly states that trojan women was one of the main sources. Also used are Hecabe, the oddyssey, the aeneid, heroides, the orestia, iphigenia in aulis... I don't think Haynes' writing deserves to be put in the same category as the yassified Greek myths otherwise discussed. It makes me mistrust the rest of the video.
Also Euripides Helen? Like I know it is not as ancient and as hence is not considered "canon" myth but someone has definitely tried to show an alternate point of view of the Trojan War from Helen's perspective
What about Antigone. You could just about rewrite the play as a novella, copying the dialogue verbatim, and you would be writing about the most "feminist" story possible. Antigone is a tremendously compelling character explicitly bucking her traditional place in society to stand up for herself, her family and her rights against the king (her uncle Creon) and in the process laying down the foundational case for natural law and the rule of law that remain central to the definition of "western" politics to this day. Add her care for her father in Oedipus at Colonnus and you have a very complex, admirable and sympathetic character.
@@manicpixiedreambuoy ???? dude what.
omg i loved this. love your presentation style, really feels like an essay while being accessible and interesting! you have a gift :) as an ancient history major myself i really resonate with this!
before i started studying, i thought i might make translations of Greek myths or retellings myself. but since studying and growing up a little more, i realise how much richer my retellings of my own people's stories would be! i have mainly irish and aboriginal australian heritage, and would LOVE to be a part of keeping their mythologies living and breathing for new generations.
if i'd seen this video back in high school, it might have prompted me to that thought much sooner! theres a real a kind but honest message underpinning your video!!
im not usually a commentor in this capacity but seeing a small creator with such a talent for this compelled me hahaha. anyways all that to say LOVED IT YOURE GREAT YOUR ACCENT IS VERY SOOTHING MWAH MWAH HOPE YOU ARE WELL
oh my gosh, thank you!!🥰This means so much! So glad this video's finding an ancient historian audience💕
Wow, wow I really appreciate this video essay! I can't believe that you said that they are 'out of your wheelhouse', this was beautifully done with clear evidence, quotes, and we can all tell you really put effort and thought into this. I also really loved that you were direct about what you didn't support/enjoy about novels, too often people try to skirt around their true opinions so that they don't offend anyone.
I can't imagine all the research and time it took to put this together, and as someone who studied classics, I really appreciate the time and care you took to discuss this topic!
Great video, and I'm glad people do see it the same way. It always bothered me how people took Greek culture and ran with it, like it was some media franchise fandom. I am Indian, so my immediate comparison is if people outside India started writing the same kind of stories for Indian mythology. Which to be clear does happen, and even in parallel with historic hellenophilia...there was a a fevered interest in Indian culture in Europe around the same time, some of which gave rise to international Indian cultural perception today (ie hippies).
Anyways, my point is that, as an Indian in the modern day with a passion for the Indian classics, I want to be able to engage with those classics in a healthy way (no nationalism, religious dogma, etc.). But I also want to avoid the exploitative vibe of modern engagement with Greek mythology. This video helped clarify some of my thoughts here. Thanks!
werenr hippies based on the roma people?
From the poems and interpretations I read when I was younger, Helen wasn’t even the true cause of the war. It was in fact Aphrodite, who promised Paris “the hand of the most beautiful woman in the world” during a beef with Athena and Hera (Maybe not Hera) in which Paris was chosen to arbitrate who was the goddess most fair. Helen was already married, but Aphrodite was true to her word and sent her son Eros to shoot Helen with an arrow and change her affections. A war happened because Aphrodite wanted a silly apple (that was admittedly cursed by Eris, goddess of chaos and discord)
Starting a war over a pretty face is a misandrist story not a misogynist one. Eris is the cause but she's the personification of strife so that doesn't mean much (not (k)Chaos that's an unrelated purely neutral force in Greek thought).
The epithet "the face that launched a thousand ships" is from Christopher Marlowe, a contemporary of Shakespeare. Honestly not sure whether or not Haynes knows that.
Huh, I never heard that version before from a version that I heard she just kidnapped her which caused a war I think or I'm just misremembering.
@@washada In a way the Iliad perfectly represents how wars are started: Over a frankly minor incident which all parties blow way out of proportions (The trojans had the option of handing over Helen back to Menelaus but were too proud and saw that as caving in to demands from a greece king) with both having a network of alliances and even godly(foreign) support on every side which turned in the heads of the leaders supposed easy win into a mess of a war that left everyone devastated.
Me: Ugh I’m so sick of stories about Hades and Persephone
Also me: One of my favourite video games is Hades and one of my favourite musicals is Hadestown
those work because they are not centered around them. Hades and Persephone do not work as a lead romance couple. They work as side characters.
You are so real for this comment
Hadestown is about Orpheus and Eurydice ft. Hades and Persephone
Also Hadestown DOES give agency to the women in the myths, which is what a lot of those retellings lack. Persephone is described as having chosen to go with Hades, and their relationship is strained BECAUSE he is trying to strip her of the agency she has in leaving and coming back, because he fears she won’t come back. Same with the Orpheus and Eurydice storyline - there she chooses to go to Hadestown as a means of survival instead of dying by accident. Hadestown generally isn’t trying to just be some sort of modern progressive retelling, it more so modernizes those stories so that their points and ideas are clearer to a more modern audience.
I do agree with you for the most part, however I am not sure how I feel about the cultural appropriation considering that Greek mythology has inspired culture all over Europe for the past 2 and a half thousand or so years. No, of course that does not justify the British stealing from the pantheon or lord Byron “signing” archeological sites, but given that some of the greatest poets of my home country have been inspired by Greek and Roman mythology almost 300 years ago and given the general interconnection of European cultures especially in what used to be the Roman Empire, I am not sure that this argument is as straightforward as it is presented here. I would be glad to be corrected though and will surely read the article you cited in the video!
Yeah, takes like this always come across to me as well meaning, but helplessly trapped in the dystopian hell of modern late stage capitalism. And I feel like they miss the point of *why* certain forms of cultural appropriation are considered bad, when that’s going to be compared to remixing a 2.5 thousand year old myth that has already been part of the cultural lineage of where you currently are since… well, in a sense, at least the Ancient Romans. I mean, unless you live in Greece, I guess.
What bothers me is that these modern tellings don't use the archeological information that we have, but the original myth-tellers didn't have access to. Demeter and Persephone are from the Bronze Age, mentioned in Linear B, and Hades is notably absent. The "original" myth is of Mother Nature and her daughter, Death. We have insight from Mycenaean Greece on how this myth evolved, especially that the men came into this cycle later in history. The Lady was the scary force from the Underworld, her husband was added to the story later on. The inherent conflict in the relationship between life and death and a mother and daughter has so much material for storytelling, but we're stuck on running away from home to marry a goth man mommy disapproves of.
i'm so glad this ended up on my feed, thank you for putting into words a feeling i had for the past years, since myth retellings became popular. I love greek mythology since i was a child, thanks to a book by Thomas Bulfinch that was on my father's shelf, the years went on and i started to get in contact with Homer, Euripides (i love Medea, she's so complex and well written, it truly amazed me), Sophocles, Aeschylus, Sappho... All of them wrote complex characters, capable of good and bad things all the same, and it took me by surprise how all of those retellings seemed to justify the bad things the main character did, or put the blame on someone else, sometimes other women, sometimes women who had nothing to do with it, which was always strange to me. I hate how modern books made Demeter a villain, Homeric Hymn to Demeter is a beautiful piece about a mother searching for her daughter, it's also about grief, about loss, and love. When a daughter got married she went to her husband's house, never to see her parents or home ever again, Demeter getting to reunite her daughter again it's sweet, a happy ending, but now she's a toxic mother, a helicopter mom, the villain of Hades and Persephone's story. Anyway, I could talk about it forever and say more examples, but in the end I just wish they would write the characters as complex beings, because they are, and that's what's beautiful and interesting about them
I've been confused on why demeter is always portrayed as a bad mother but not just that I've been eriously confused with hades and persophnes sorry wondering were they ever actually in love or just some made up thing
@@SiYennaScreams Hades and Persephone were kinda pushed towards one another by Zeus... it was an arranged marriage.
Persephone was kidnapped, so it's understable that Demeter would freak out...
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Read the ''Homeric Hymn to Demeter'' by Homero.
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Also recomend the video (''Miscellaneous Myths: Hades and Persephone'') by ''Overly Sarcastic Productions''
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Regardless of what it started, it's still one of the healthiest relationship in Greek mythology.
Still ... don't kidnap your future wife.
The thing with the letters Penelope's writing to Odysseus is maybe based on the Heroides by Ovid, which is a series of fictional letters by women from ancient Greek myths (and Sappho, the only historical figure there). And one of them is written by Penelope to Odysseus, so there is some precedent for that kind of thing happening in ancient times (albeit ancient Rome, not Greece).
I've noticed this absolute explosion of interest in mythology in the last few years. It's definitely been popping up in Urban Fantasy & videogames. I've loved mythology & folklore & fairytales since I was a little girl. I saw the old Harryhausen films Jason & the Argonauts & 7th Voyage of Sinbad & all the beautiful sculptures & vases in a Time Life Book about Ancient Greece & was hooked. I also had my mom's HS & college books about classic Greek Mythology. So I was pretty familiar with a lot of tales never having read an actual translation of the Illiad/Odyssey ( honestly I tried to listen to the book on tape & the 400th time feasting & praise to Grey eyed Athena was mentioned I got bored so I understand why most people are familiar with some version of a retelling) One thing I did learn is that many of these myths are inter connected & overlap & are much more complex than any Encyclopdia of Collected Classic Myths can really convey. I also have a keen interest in ancient history so I wanted to understand the cultural significance since I personally do not think you can take art out of context of its time & culture. I was an applied art major & that required a solid grounding in art history. Anyways, the only "feminist" retellings I ever read was The Mists of Avalon(Arthurian Legend) & The Firebrand ( Troy) which I really enjoyed because they read like historical fiction from the female characters POV. I guess I don't mind modern retellings per se but I don't think they need to be modern feminist critiques of the societies from which the myths originated since so many of the myths are a critique themselves or loaded with social commentary already. Or do people think the Illiad is pro war & toxic masculinity? What about The Trojan Women by Euripides( I did read that in my mythology class lol) It's pretty female focused iirc.
Most of the people who think the Iliad as pro war and pro toxic masculinity are barely veiled White Supemecists reading their values into the Iliad not feminists criticising a dead culture for its values.
While Myths of Avalon is more critiqued for its author's vile ideas outside of the book so nobody talks about the actual work any more.
FINALLY, some good fucking Penelope takes!
Seriously though, this is an absolutely phenomenal video essay. This type of historicizing and comparative analysis is essential to conversations surrounding contemporary myth retellings. I really want to commend your work-as a former Classics major I can’t tell you how many conversations I’ve had on this exact topic, and it can be hard to articulate, but you do such a great job of covering multiple areas of criticism and being firm yet fair in your analysis. The conclusion almost made me tear up, genuinely. Can’t wait to watch the follow up video, although first I have to go reread Emily Wilson :)
I have no idea why Penelope fans have such a hate boner for Odysseus. For starters, he's, like, the one guy in Ancient Greek mythology who DIDN'T cheat on his wife!
@@jennyji9723 I can't tell if you're being serious or not but Odysseus very much did cheat on his wife. that was a pretty significant thing that happened.
Thank you for your points on Hades and Persephone retellings! They always bothered me for that reason; when trying to make them more "feminist," they usually reduce Demeter's character to a shallow, possessive nag, instead of... a powerful woman who uses her agency to get her daughter back from the man who abducted her? It's a weird trade-off; to make the "romance" more palatable, they always end up sacrificing the element of a familial bond between the female characters, their emotions, and their autonomy.
The whole point of the hymn to Demeter is Demeter.
Women were second-class citizens, barely considered human, especially in Athens. So when a man asked for a woman in marriage, only the father or older brother mattered. Not the mother, not the daughter.
Once Zeus agrees to Hades' request, Kore becomes Hades' wife, by law.
When Hades...lies with her, Kore becomes Persephone.
She is no longer Kore, of her father Zeus: she is Persephone, of her husband Hades.
That's how it was back then.
Demeter retaliating, having power over the situation, demanding and raging, was something most women back then were unable to do.
I'm sure it was cathartic for the mothers.
This was one of the biggest reasons why I kinda hate lore Olympus. It claims to be “feminist” retelling but the writer’s internalized misogyny does seep through A LOT. Almost all the female characters who aren’t Persephone get villainized.
One character who I’m surprised isn’t a big character for retellings is Hera. Now that’s a character who, from everything I understand, is completely vilified for reacting to her husbands various crimes and infidelities. She seems to be every misogynist stereotype about “controlling ball and chain wives”, even when her husband is actually a cheater and rapist. The goddess of marriage and women, portrayed time and time again as evil, controlling, yet also hysterical and weak and completely inept at stopping her husband from doing anything. It “feels” like the implicit moral there is that she shouldn’t ever be mad or try to assert any power, merely submit and allow Zeus to do what he wants. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s the reactionary sentiment that *feels* inherent in Hera’s tales. Yet we get retelling of Persephone, wherein the girl actually wants to be kidnapped and the mother is demonized for being against it. Wild.
Jennifer Saint has a book coming
out later this month about Hera
Excellent point. Hera's story ought to be that of a Medea on steroids - but a Cassandra-like impotent one as well!
Well, Hera usually reacted by punishing the person Zeus cheated on her WITH (or who kept secrets for her husband out of fear of his wrath, like Echo--or their children, like trying to kill Heracles as an infant), rather than her husband himself. If anything, Hera's reactions were enforcing the patriarchal standard of "when a man can't keep it in his pants, the woman is responsible", which we still see the bitter fruits of today.
And then there's things like throwing her baby son off a mountain because she thought he was ugly.
I was about to say the same thing Hera's reactions were brutal and abusive toward the women to have been violated by her husband. None of the gods were particularly nice people. They were driven by their passions, lust, rage and revenge often pointed at completely unwilling and relatively innocent humans. they were the personification of the brutality of life and not whole and functioning adults with the capacity for reason and rationality
and ironically, Hera's practically a protagonist of the illiad
You pulled this right out of my mind and put it as eloquently as possible I love you
I don’t think I’ve seen a video that deserved an instant subscribe in a long time, but THIS IS CERTAINLY ONE OF THEM. From research to analysis to presentation, this is magnificent! Thanks for making it!
im not usually one for video essays (feel like they usually lack the nuance), but clicked on this one anyways, and im so pleasantly surprised!! so good, so interesting.i thought i was going to cry, its just beautiful !!
and at some point i was even a bit skeptical of your position (when you started talking about what right we have of re-telling these myths - thought you were going to be a bit conservative. but tradition is something that is alive and it suffers change and its ok to do retellings. but the lack of respect we see sometimes for something ... its a religion !! people believed and prayed to these gods, maybe is just mythology for us, but it was religion and it was also history and it was ethics and so much more !! and i feel like that is way to often forgotten), but you expressed what i felt in a way i could never do !! just beautiful, really !! (also loved the music you put in the background, good choice ahahah)
literally came BACK to this video because I was happy to see the views practically double over the day. This is a very beautiful video and I am glad to see it get the attention it deserves.
I liked this video essay. I do however have an issue with terms like cultural appropriation because a lot of ideas of cultural belonging are rooted in highly problematic nationalist ideas. "Greek" mythology is an anachronism in itself. Most of the myths we know are either Athenian or Thebeian, generally ranging from the Classical period to the early Roman period (with Homer being a clear exception, being from the Archaic period). These myths changed rapidly in both time and space, similar to how culture changes. Direct cultural lineage (and this is not just Greek nationalism, a lot of nationalisms are guilty of this) is an 18th and 19th century narrative that allowed nationalist movements to rally around a perceived shared history.
Hello Kankri
Yeah, it's a total buzzword and is frequently misused by the internet. Sad.
YES. Thank you! It was hard for me not to feel like some of this (excellent) video's last points were boiling down to: if not by-blood Greek, don't tell ancient, ancient stories that almost everyone knows regardless of nationality. It was starting to feel a little essentialist, and it made me uncomfortable. Of course, all people have a right to their culture's stories. Of course, people from those cultures should ideally take the forefront in the telling of their culture's stories. But at this point, I feel as though its a fair thing to say that ancient Greek myths (acknowledging everything you just said about the accuracy of that term) are Greek stories, AND they are wider cultural stories, and thus they belong both to their founding country, and to everyone else who reads/listens/is inspired by them.
Greek mythology was also basically invented by creating a new category called 'Orphism' to contain all the contradictory or aesthetically ugly parts of classical literature and give them an origin in foreign influence and ideas about cultural degeneracy. What we call 'Greek' mythology is a heavily curated group of 'canonical classics' designed by Racists to split the world into 'the rational west with its unique powers of abstract thought and self control' and 'the irrational east capable of only sleep walking into their own subjection'.
So the Hermaphrodite Primal Principle of the Orphic Theogyny was compared to the hybrid animals of Egyptian and Assyrian art as proof that entire peoples could suffer from having 'confused minds' while the heteronormative primal couples of Hesiod were used as a sign of the rationality of the heteronormativity being forced on various peoples in both Europe and their colonies as part of 'modernisation'. The hybrid beasts of other myths were okay as long as buff but not too tanned men were painted as hacking them apart, with Chiron and Pan about the only figures able to escape this since at least they had human heads and masculine beards.
@@AC-dk4fp very interesting. Thanks for posting this.
This is exactly what my hang up is with a lot of people engaging with greek mythology and retelling is a modern day polytheist and an archaeology student. People fail to recognise these stories are REAL HISTORY and part of an actual real culture and people that DID exist! And they dont handle it with the respect and nuance it therefore deserves--moreover the religion isnt dead either! That is to say, I enjoyed this video and the light you shed onto this subject!
No rep for my boi Euripides? He was doing this before it was cool
He is my boy
@@nony_mation Really? I haven't heard that. I try to be distrustfull of any Library of Alexandria narrative, seeing as most of it is so distanced and interested, but please let me know your source.
Every time somebody tries to “feminize” Penelope I want to bash my head into a brick wall. I have literally gushed about Penelope in the Odyssey with my friends and her parallel with Odysseus as a character, even down to her character points of cleverness and guile. In the Odyssey, Penelope is the one who gives Odysseus’s travels any merit at all. Her steadfast and uncompromising actions, not giving in to her suitors? If she hadn’t done that, Odysseus’s ten years of literally going to “hell” and back trying to get back to her would be null and void. And therefore, Penelope’s actions make the Odyssey satisfying as a story and, for Odysseus, worth everything he went through to return to her. It reinforces that Odysseus and Penelope are of one heart and soul, that their passion, drive, and faithfulness to each other mirror one another up until the end and make their reunion that much more powerful. All in all, Penelope is at the very heart of the Odyssey.
I’ve also had almost this exact conversation about Helen as she was portrayed in the Iliad as well! To make it all the worse, the Trojan war was essentially started by Eris pitting Hera, Aphrodite, and Athena against each other. It’s also made very unclear if Aphrodite enchanted Helen to go with Paris or even if she had any choice to begin with. Yet, even if she had no choice, she spends the Iliad mourning the role she had in the war’s beginning. She comes across as not only a sympathetic figure, but a tragic and incredibly lonely one.
Penelope is challenging her circumstances, while Helen allows herself to become a victim of hers. It’s a beautiful, powerful foil between the two.
There is another side the Greece and Colonization issue you ignored, the Ancient did Colonialism long before they were victimized by it. They had colonies all over the Mediterranean even before Alexander The Great's conquests. The New Testament was written in Greek because of the products of Greek Imperialism. Rome started emulating Greece and worshiping their gods long before they conquered any of Greece because of of the Greek colonies of Italy being centers of culture there.
John Stewart Mil who was a leading Abolitionist and Anti-Racist of his time absolutely had a point that of western society descends from Greece not just those who might descend from them more genealogically. We English speakers don't even need to go back 1 Thousand years for the English speaking world become totally Alien to us, and most of us still worship the same God, the Hellenes of the Aegean stopped worshiping the Olympians longer then that ago. Modern Zeus worshipers are Neo-Pagans, they have no actual continuity with the Ancient Religions and are essentially based on modern Greek Mythology Fan Fiction just as much the wanna be Druids.
The Roman Empire in the East essential became Greek, so no Roman Mistreatment of Greece when they first conquered it has any connection to the afflictions of modern Greece. The Greeks who have been victims of Colonialism have been Christian Greek Greek Orthodox not Pagan who literally believe in the old Mythology, from the Fourth Crusade being done by Roman Catholics to centuries of Muslim Oppression. A more Secularly minded modern Greek identifying with Pagan Culture is just as both Valid and Silly as any pretentious Victorian doing so.
Going to another you mentioned, complaining about character talking in ways you find to inherently modern, specially in the context of imagining an Ancient Greek woman to have complained about Gender Double Standards, I consider another way modern people tell on themselves. In the 17th Century Novel Don Quixote there is a scene where a female exactly that, she gives a long rant that is in a modern novel set in the 1600s would absolutely criticized for sounding to modern. I have no doubt that in the Ancient World too plenty of women were thinking and sometimes saying these kinds of things, it just wasn't written down.
Agree
Egyptians and Persians did the same way before Greeks. There isno Greek imperialism you are talking about because Greeks did not have Kings. The New Testament was written in Greek at a time that Greeks were already enslaved by Romans for several hundreds of years.
Colonization does not equal colonialism and certainly isnot the same as Roman and British colonization and imperialism.
@@ThePythonfan the Greeks colonized a lot of places, and many of them had kings. It was not united at the time - each city-state had their own colonies.
Why you are being hostile to neo-pagans so much?
@@ThePythonfan Alexander, his father, Diadochi and their descendants - all were colonizers/aggressive imperialists and are considered kings. It is undeniable that Hellenism had a huge influence in late Judaism and early Christianity (hell, even the word synagogue, as well as the concept of it are inherently Greek). Such an influence would not have been possible, if there was no conquest of Middle East/Egypt after the fall of the Persian Empire.
Please, please, PLEASE make more video essays about literature! I love these deep dives and your voice is AMAZING!
Thanks for these well-taken observations. The one line in Silence of the Girls that lost me was when one of the men, seated, slaps his knees and says, 'Right, I'd better go.' More Tring than Troy.
I really appreciated the video. However, I struggle with any assertion that story belongs only to the culture in which it was first told. Writers tell stories because they are human, not because they are in love with their own culture and need people across the world to authentically understand it.
I’m far more deeply perturbed by some comments that advise people not to engage creatively with stories from any other culture than ‘their own’. I don’t believe it will do us any good as a species and as a global community to erect echo chambers above ‘our cultures’ and insulate them from each other. For a start, doing so is inherently prescriptive and risks flattening and, actually, self-colonising whatever one perceives to be one’s ‘own culture’.
That the big business of profitable storytelling is in the hands of relatively few people on earth, many of whom come from a handful of linked urban centres built upon the establishments which colonised the world, is certainly a big problem.
I think it is down to people like this video’s creator to point to that, and down to everyone to learn authentically about stories from elsewhere.
I do *not* think that, once we’ve learned about those stories, we should never engage with them, propogate them or use them to advance our and others’ understandings of the world. That sort of cultural tribalism will wreck our sense of shared humanity.
nobody's trying to gatekeep stories--all people ask is to be respectful. I can't just take the story of Eros and Psyche and turn it into a romcom, because then it's not the story of eros and psyche. We need to engage in those stories, but be respectful of where they came from. If I have no knowledge of Egyptian culture and mythology, if I tell a story of the goddess Isis, I am appropriating something I think is cool rather than honoring the story itself. This video is about how the poor engagement with mythology can in a sense ruin its memory and bastardize it. And ideally, the loudest voices and the most prominent storytellers should be those these stories come from, since they have a personal and historical connection to them. I can tell a "retelling" of a Greek tale that's spot on and respectful to the source material, but I will never have that ethos that a Greek who has studied the tales of their ancestors has. Kate is talking about making sure the origins of these myths aren't silenced by voices that bastardize something that doesn't belong to them
The world is already an echo chamber. Different cultures already exist within those echo chambers. However, Hollywood and American entertainment has done something extremely problematic. They refused to understand that what are simply a bunch of exotic myths to them might have a much more deeper cultural relevance to the people from whom they originated. It's a matter of perspective and not every culture or even every human being has the same perspective on the cultural/religious/spiritual value others attach to their history, art, literature and mythology. I am not Greek but as a non American myself, I can understand that Americanizing something beautiful but foreign to suit the American palette by completely removing its authentic essence to ensure it's not too much for the American audience is not something most cultures appreciate. Specially when it's done in an insensitive or thoughtless manner.
This isn't limited to Greece. For centuries the portrayal of foreign cultures in American movies and literature has been extremely stereotypical and bigoted. White men and women have played Arab and Persian princes and princesses to death. Those cultures have long been portrayed (both in literature and cinema) as inferior. The same applies to the Chinese and Japanese people and the entire African continent. American culture doesn't place the same value on giving an almost sacred or certainty extremely respected space to some of the most iconic masterpieces in the history of our cultures. For most Americans (obviously not all), these literary gems and characters are different and attractive because they offer not just literary masterpieces but unique ones as well yet the same people are eager to strip them off of their uniqueness and cultural relevance to make it just a generic American romance and I cannot convince people who ignore how often this happens about how dismissive and disrespectful it is.
@@aamnahere6250 couldn't have said it better myself. The original commenter came off as really ignorant and honestly... american
I do not think the original commenter is "ignorant", both of you have a point.
The retelling of stories by different cultures is their natural evolution, but making sure to respect the originals and perserve them and their core essence is ALSO extremely important!
We can't lock stories to only be told by certain people, but what we can do is to promote a culture that emphisizes research into source material and meaningful reconstruction and reuse of the old stories.
@@_b_e_a_n_s_ As someone from a group who experiences different forms of cultural appropriation (due to different circumstances), you nailed this perfectly & I related to this despite being from a completely different culture than Greeks LMAO
Such a beautiful and thought provoking video! I have often felt at ease with these retelling and never quite been able to articulate why - but you’ve managed to explain it in a much more eloquent way than I ever could!
I have often felt, something that you touched on in the video, that because the source of these myths comes from a male generated narrative and history, there is no true way to make them feminist. We cannot ever fully detach the myth from its male history, and will thus the result is female characters either written purely in opposition to the existing male narrative, or written alongside it. I argue neither of these is the true female voice!
YES THANK YOU! I’m so tired of people trying to deny or worse romanticize stories and myths with patriarchal origins. It almost like trying to erase history and gaslight us into thinking we would live better in a time before the civil rights and feminist movements.
This video was awesome to watch, and it really put words to a frustration I've had when trying to get my high school students interested in texts like The Odyssey. I hope you keep making videos like this!
This was a really terrific video, well done. So often when I talk to younger women who profess an interest in Greek mythology I am struck by how superficial their knowledge is - invariably this is because they have never read any actual period works, but are only familiar with modern retellings and with the interpretation of Greece in American pop culture. Something which is particularly lacking is knowledge of historical and cultural context - these tales simply cannot be properly understood without at least some understanding of the world into which they were written, which, as you say, fundamentally differs to the modern world. It is also particularly baffling that in this age of feminist retellings that so many remain ignorant of the works of playwrights such as Euripedes and Seneca, who focus women in plenty of their plays, both as heroes and as villains.
That is I think the real problem - people today not being intellectually curious enough to experience anything other than a modernized rework that has been modernized and sanitized so they can see themselves and their current lives in it easily, rather than being challenged to see the past on its own merits.
I've quite glad I got this video before you unlisted it. As someone who taught AP Language as well as other high school levels of English wherein we'd read epic poems, I find this an interesting companion piece (even outside of Greek mythology; something like Grendel with respects to Beowulf, for example) and would absolutely consider using this as a source for students to respond critically to.
Thank you for your work.
I'm not sure I'd blame the war on Helen so much as I'd blame it on Athena, Hera, and Aphrodite dragging Paris into their argument.
This whole video is a YES! Loved it all the way through. Thank you for making it and sharing it with all of us. It should make waves, be seen by everybody. Hope you'll get to the large audience you deserve.