3 MFT Tops, 3 MFT jigs [Video 498]
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- Опубліковано 26 вер 2024
- [Gifted/Ad**] In this longer video I take a look at three different ways to make your own MFT (MultiFunction Table) tops using the UJK Parf Guide 2 System from Axminster Tools, the Trend MFT/jig and the RS Pro jig from CNC design. Enjoy!
** The UJK Parf Guide 2 was supplied for review by Axminster Tools and Machinery, and the Trend MFT/jig was supplied for review by Trend Tool Technology. I purchased the RS Pro jig myself. I have not been paid to make this video or say nice things about the products.
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Extended version of this video where I go into the pros and cons of each system on my member platforms now. 10minuteworkshop.plus
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Ideally there would be a tool library where you could borrow a parf guide once every few years when you need it.
A tip for the Parf Guide system - you should try and index from the 3mm pilot holes when boring as much as possible. They are quite a bit more accurate. Every time you index off the 20mm holes, the holes you bore have an extremely small error introduced. If you do the entire top like you have done here, those errors compound on each other to something more noticeable. It probably isn't an issue on a small MFT top like you are making here, but when doing a 4x8 sheet (or larger) this is a very serious issue.
The better way is to plan ahead and figure out how to bore the maximum number of holes while indexing only from the 3mm pilots, and only once you're completely finished with that step you go on to bore the rest. This way it's entirely possible that every bored hole is indexed either from good 3mm pilots, or a 20mm hole which was itself indexed off a 3mm pilot.
It's also much better to ensure you have a pin (or indexing dog) on either side of the hole you're boring - the way your'e doing it here (with the indexing dogs both on one side of the hole you're boring) enables quite a lot more deflection and introduces a lot of potential for error.
I also find it essential to clamp down the boring jig for the four corners.
I am amazed how frequently I pull out the Parf Guide system - it really opens up a lot of possibilities for somebody without a CNC!
Yes! I did not do this on my 1st Parf mft 4'x8' clone and ended up about 3/32 -5/32 out of square over the 8' run. Like Peter I checked my squareness with a big precision square (TSO), and within the range of the square cumulative drift is effectively zero, however cut a big 3x7 sheet using 4 cut method and it won't be square. Over the size of average casework, like kitchen cabinets boxes and doors, the drift is not perceptible. But if you need something really precise for large pieces you need to use your method.
Totally agree with your comment here Jim.
Haven't got a Parf guide yet, but plan to in a few months.
Seems to me another accuracy factor is to minimize how many generations of holes you have. Not sure if there's a better word for this but I'm thinking (using Peter's drilling sequence here) the (8?) holes drilled from the original Parf stick placement are 1st gen holes, the perpendicular lines of holes at the ends drilled from the 6-8-10 assembly are 2nd gen holes because they're based off of 1st gen holes, the holes drilled at the rearward long edge are 3rd gen holes because they're based on 2nd gen holes, and the central field holes are 4th gen holes because they're based on 3rd (and 1st) gen holes. Point is you can do your drilling so there are no 4th gen holes which can reduce the cumulative error from having more generations than you need. You can also make many of the 3rd gen holes be 2nd gen, further reducing potential error.
Jim, excellent advice. My parf guide arrives in a couple of days and I did not know the nuances you mentioned. The info and advice is much appreciated.
@@NWGR no problem. I would strongly suggest going back to the catalog of The New Brit Workshop and seeing all Peter has to say about using the system. I picked up most of those tips from him, although some of them I discovered through my own experience with the system.
I was slightly intimidated by the parf system for a year and a half. Maybe I just thought I’d screw it up or there’s no way it’ll work that good. I’m blown away by how easy it is to use and how accurate it is. Made two tops this past week and they are flawless. As square as it can be. I have extremely accurate measuring devices, more accurate than I ever need for woodworking, everything is a go. Can’t say enough about it
That’s great to hear, thank you! 👍
Just gotta mention something I tried and succeeded with yesterday. If you already have an mft top and want to reproduce it on another bench, just use it as a template by laying it in top of new one and using a Fischer wave cutter forstner bit. Can't believe how well it turned out, all for the cost of a 20 quid bit!
The Parf guide is not only good looking, but IMHO is more versatile than the others as you can prepare a surface for the grid without completing the 20mm holes. My process with the Parf guide for a surface where you don’t need all the 20mm holes in every position immediately is to drill a 3mm grid then it is trivial to add 20mm holes if needed. There is no loss of accuracy and the surface can be more useful for other purposes
Yep, should always start with the full grid of 3mm holes. 👌👍
You can use the revision dogs as well. (for later on, 48/32 20 mm offset holes)
Thanks for your work on this Peter. One way to improve the extraction on the Parf dust extractor is to press a piece of very dense closed cell foam, like the packaging foam that comes around many tools etc when shipped, into the slot of the jig that is not being used - it increases the suction on the remaining active one. I think this a Peter Parfit tip from his demo video & it really works.
Thanks for the comparison! I used the parf guide system, on a full sheet of MDF, that took almost a full day and left my trigger finger sore :)
People should be aware though about the UJK dogs; You need to chamfer the holes with the provided chamfer tool as the dogs have a lip on them that fits into it. If that lip sticks up it can dig into the side of your sheet and potentially misalign your cut by a millimeter over the distance between the dogs.
So chamfer the holes and make sure the dogs are correctly seated before making your cut. Or use some other dogs ;)
Thanks! Yes, not a fan of that kind of proprietary-ness in something as simple as a benchdog, and I particularly dislike chamfered holes on a bench! 👍
Thank you for mentioning the chamfer.
@@10MinuteWorkshop Why do you not like chamfered holes?
After spend months investigating the MFT jigs I went with the Parf Mark 2. Yes very expensive in Australia but accurate, repeatable and very high quality.
As you're in Aus, why didn't you give Dave Stanton a bell? He knock them out with a cnc.
Great comparison! I purchased the Parf Guide 2 system this year and used it on a 4x8 sheet of MDF. I like how accurate it was and following the recommendations of the instructions really minimizes and drift. My biggest issue was making sure you get the pins seated correctly in the ruler. Take you time when doing that and things will go great.
Thanks! 👍
I have the Parf mk2 and the advantage you didn't mention in the video is you have the ability to make offset holes so your tracksaw doesn't cut through your holes. Great video, very informative
Thanks, and I'm pretty sure I did mention 'alternative hole layouts' wether the odd angles that Peter seems to love, or offset 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop my apologies Peter you did, I missed it so watched it again
I was lucky enough to invest in a UJK jig before it became double the price and what it retails for now. Been putting MFT holes in every worktop I have ever since.
Brilliant video mate, you should get an award fir dedication to showing mft jigs, that's a lot of holes bored mate fair play
Cheers Dan! 👍
Don't know when I've seen a better explanation of the separate systems.Good stuff!
Thank you! I was aiming at being the standard reference video for all DIY MFTers out there! 👍
Ive been wondering which jig is the best but no one has tested the three versions I’ve been looking at until now. Thank you Peter, you have saved me at least £100!
Give it a few weeks, I might save you a bit more... 🤔
Sounds good. Problem is the saving really means thinking I’ve got money to spend on other goodies for the workshop. Great videos, thanks.
I was looking at all three of these systems and went with the Parf guide as I didn't have a router that would produce consecutive accurate results after some experimenting with router jigs. The Parf system is also easier to store in my small work space it is a bit costly but I figured i'd have it and use it for many years to come and you get two long steel rules that are always handy.
I pondered on different systems for many months. Finally bit the billet and got a Parf guide system. So glad I did. It has tremendous flexibility. When using a Festool track it is ideal to have alternative hole locations so it can do this with ease Whilst I would like a router option I know there would be a time when I would take a knock out the jig and ruin it. So Parf system is my vote.
I just finished a 44”x80” top with the Parf System. Amazing jig, took a while for sure but I did an alternate layout and it it turned out amazing
Great vid Peter! I invested in the Parf Guide 2 system a couple of years ago - I felt the small storage size and long-term dimensional stability of the metal components compared to the MDF alternatives over, say, 25+ years (I’m in my mid 30’s!) was worth the extra initial cost. What blew me away with the UJK kit was the quality of the components- especially the 3mm drill bit and 20mm cutter! Being able to have half-spaced holes meant setting up for my new Bench Dogs Rail Hinge was a breeze too. Another factor was that I felt the UJK system would hold up to wear better than the MDF templates- granted you can adjust with the tape but if the wear isn’t concentric you will end up potentially out of square.
Thanks Colin. Yes, the Parf Guide 2 is a very well put together piece of kit, and having some modest experience with small-volume production and manufacturing, I'm impressed that they can do it for the price they do. As you say, it's a long-term investment that will continue to produce great results for years to come, and with an almost guaranteed resale value if you ever do decide to move it on. No getting around that fact that you're drilling one hole at a time though... 👍 👍
I do like the triangle math of the parf. Elegant if not quick.
Thank you my friend. I’m in the USA and you are Spot On!
Thank you very much for the time and for the effort you put in you videos …
Bob
Awesome content as we have come to expect? I purchased the Parf guide kit and have investigated various alternative hole patterns, mostly through the Britt workshop channel (another awesome channel). I have since put additional holes in my MFT and configured a Paulk work bench with custom holes. These all have additional holes to the main standard pattern. I love the extra functionality and precision of the Parf guide. I will also use this to make jigs that will sit above and below the take surface such as bench vice, etc. One thing I think you did not mention is that the Parf kit comes with a chamfer tool, at least I think it does. I have both the chamfer bit and combo chamfer reamer bit. These are necessary to get the chamfer range of dogs to work, plus after you shellac the MDF you do not need to worry about any build up in the holes or at the chamfer. Very much appreciate your sharing your knowledge. Cheers from Newfoundland Canada.
@6:35 What I found was that using the provided dust shroud impeded dust collection. Probably because of those discs that happen often. What I did was to just leave the hose at the two holes seen @5:31. It seemed to work much better. But the UJK Parf Guide is a BEAST. And it's a lifetime investment as there is nothing that will wear out. And it's so simple to use as well. As for squareness? It's dead nuts accurate.
Thanks for the comparison Peter. I used the Axminster set when I built my version of your portable bench. Definitely a bit spendy but well worth it. I don’t believe I could have done as well with a movable jig. Regarding the “boring” part (I see what you did there), I did not drill the entire top. I add them as needed for the particular task. Saves time initially, and I can stomach (ok rationalize) the cost a bit better using it a few times a year rather than once a year or two. Nice video as usual.
Same here. I went with three worktops with specific set of holes.
First one I made a full grid of 3mm holes, as there are easy and 'fast' drilled. Than I checked were I need dogholes and added them later. Here comes the parfjig to shine. It is easy an accurate to only, make on row of holes rectangular to a nother row, evan on a full sheet.
I justified the high cost with sharing the jig with woodworking friends and preparing worktops for others.
BTW if you don't raise your worktop but put it at a spoilboard, you prevent the spinning disks of MDF
In expanding my skillset from professional green woodworking into a some more accurate shapes, learning what technique I will need to learn and and what kit suits my set up has been easy and fun through watching well over half of your video output. Having spent so much on tools I can't afford to pay to join the support group right now, but just to say a huge thank you for the articulate and well thought out videos.
Thank you for the time and effort to put this piece together. Perfectly explained, huge fan of your work! 😃
Thanks! 👍
I used the Trend jig recently and it worked great. I slowed down my router speed which stopped the burning marks inside the hole. Only issue I had was 2 days later I spotted I missed a hole right in the middle! I've left it like that as a reminder to pay better attention. Thanks for the great videos.
Thanks Paul! Yes, figured it had to be a speed thing - either too fast on the plunge or too fast on the router! 👍
Great video, as always. I probably need to go watch it again.
I do wish decent CNC service for wood was available more widely in the States, or even just the Cnc’d tops. I have an idea for a rather nonstandard top I’d like to make… but I’m not sure I’m competent to manage it without a CNC. Guess I’ll have to convince the wife to buy me a CNC…
Before anyone jumps in to plunging 20mm holes I'd recommend doing a test first. I tried this and although the cutter diameter was 20mm the hole size I ended up with was more like 20.2 which is useless for an MFT. I never did get to the bottom of the issue, it could have been cutter runout or down to the router bearings. Woodworker beware.
Actuallym the Festool 'standard' for MFT holes is 20.2mm - that's a topic for another video entirely! But yes, I've been collecting 20mm bits for a while, and overwhelmingly the difference 'between them' is down to router run-out. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Hi Peter, so what bit is the most accurate for 20mm then? I'm planning on making my MFT with your method over the next few weeks so it would be great to be able to get the right bit first time.
@@1larfinboy I got a 20mm resharpen down to 19.85mm and this gives a really tight fit.
@@1larfinboy This is not from Peter but I have a few 20mm router bits and I have found that the best for MDF holes is the Trend, which is the one that Peter used. My tests are not scientific, just make a hole and try it. The bench dogs I use are the Benchdogs UK Quad Dogs which have the expanding rubber rings. However, the bit with the Parf Guide system is a tighter fit. As Peter says, first try the bit on a scrap piece.
In the instructions trend recommend reducing the cutter RPM for this application, which in conjunction with peck drilling the holes, reduces vibration and therefore the production of oversized holes.
I’m a huge fan of the trend jig as it’s so much faster then messing about with rulers, pins, pegs, drill bits and other numerous paraphernalia which is easily lost and more time-consuming to replace or maintain when compared with one router one router bit, with the included extraction that is also clearer whilst working.
With parf guide you can also make holes in 30 degree pattern to each other when others are 90 or 45 degree. Parf guide is the most versatile if you need that option.
As I mentioned in the vid under 'alternative holes patterns and spacing' 👍
Fantastic timing Peter, I am about to embark on my own MFT top for my newly acquired garage which I am converting to a workshop. I am however, attempting to create the MFT top with no purchased guides or jigs, but have opted to try and make my own jig, starting out with a piece of Meccano to provide regularly spaced accurate holes.
Throughout my research, I've found no justified reason for the 96mm centres, so I think I will opt for 100mm for easier math.
Thanks again for all of your content, you are one of the main inspirations for me to try and cross over into the woodworking industry whilst in my mid 30's and with a family, so the regular apprenticeship route is not feasible for me at this time.
Pleasure, glad it was helpful. No reason not to make your own, just be fastidious in your marking and your maths. No reason for 96mm centres, other than compatibility with existing hardware eg benchdogs quad hinge, or MFT dogs in a rail square. 👍
I tried the old mark 1 parf guide system but quickly sold it as it was slow & a complete mess, as you said in the vid. Didn't lose too much money on it as they're popular & easy to sell on. Now use the RS pro CNC jig (I splashed out & got the ply one for longevity) & find it miles faster & easier to use & it's a bargain compared to anything else. Can't argue with the accuracy of either. At the end of the day the accuracy of whatever comes out of my workshop starts with my cutting table.
Great comparrison Peter, probably not much between all three in terms of accuracy but I'm probably a bit biased as I bought the UJK Parf Guide Mkll system over a year ago and loved it when boring out 191 dog holes in my new workbench which has a side apron as well full of dog holes.
I also used the facility of boring some "offset" holes which allows for taller dogs to be placed in such a postion that your plunge saw track doesn't end up running straight across the middle of a column of holes when its up against the dogs to keep it square.
UJK (Axminster Tools) also now sell "retrospective dogs" which are a 20mm dogs with a 3mm hole pre-drilled in the center so you can re-fit the rulers with the pins in the correct holes to allow you to accurate bore offset 20mm dog holes, quite useful if you decide you need them at a later date.
Yes it's quite a bit more expensive and a bit slower, but if you are doing lots of bench tops I think it might last considerably longer than the other two, possibly 😁
The Systainer is a great idea, but you still need somewhere to keep the "Parf Sticks" where they won't get damaged, so working on an idea for that at the moment.
Look forward to the next video, keep up the great work.
Thanks Colin! Yes, the steel rules are a blessing and a curse. Handy to have and useful outside of the parf guide - as are the benchdogs and forstner bit - but a pain to keep! 🤷♂️👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop I mulled over the parf stick storage problem for a while - defineitly something you want to protect. Eventually I came up with a solution I'm pretty proud of - they fit perfectly into a piece of electrical trunking/conduit (I think it was 40mmx16mm for B&Q). I cut it about 30mm longer than the sticks, added two end caps and a batton (~30x10mm) to keep it stiff.
Heh Peter, 50 v 7 minuets no brainer if you have the £1K of Festool kit and you are in business knocking the MFT3 tops out of for cash but I suppose for most of us one two or maybe even three MFT3 tops are plenty so buying one already made from a CNC company for £40ish, it varies, may be the best way to go as they are readily available from a few sources. The comparison video here is just first class and excellent if you are in that zone of making your own with or without the flexibility you have alluded to here. Brilliant and super clear Peter thanks for sharing.
Thanks David! 👍
Very good vids. You pre, live, overdub, and post narrate very effective. And you don't feel compelled to use guitar power chord tracks. Nice.
your videos made me venture down the MFT route and they have been a gamechanger. i am still using my initial 50 quid with 4 alu dogs one although has been flipped over and oiled again now.
for anyone wondering if its a route worth taking i'd say go for it. you can always buy one and use a template bit to make more which i did when i got mine. i made a couple of smaller tops that i use as extensions or i can sit my chop saw on a base with dogs easily as i rarely use it. makes it super stable and can place where i need it most. plus use dogs for clamping stop blocks etc
Hi Peter, I bought the Trend 20mm x 25 x ½” router bit to drill some dog holes in 18mm MDF using my Benchdogs hinge jig and I too had scorching. Initially I had the router speed too high and the heat generation melted the MDF glue and caused serious tear out inside the bore. I reduced the router speed to minimum and that stopped the tear out but I still had some scorching. So instead I purchased a Festool 20mm x 25 x 8mm spiral upcut cutter (I had to get a Leigh ½” x 8mm collet reducer too) and that gives much cleaner cuts, slight burning at top speed and completely burn free at minimum speed. The cutter is slightly more expensive than the Trend one and you have the additional cost of the collet reducer, but I think the much superior performance is well worth the total increase of £13. An additional benefit is improved dust extraction, which is a real bonus for me because I have a De Walt router which has, at best, awful dust control.
Thanks Steve. Yes, I use the Festool bit myself, nice but, but slightly oversized for most regular dogs. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Hi Peter, I agree though the Trend 20mm router bit creates similarly oversized dog holes as the Festool bit. Only the Parf Guide cutter creates a tight fit. But since even tight fit dog holes get a bit sloppy over time I tend to use dogs that tighten into the dog hole, which also avoids the need to use star knobs to lock the dogs in place. Steve
Not really in the spirit of this video, but worth pointing out that if you live on mainland UK, you can have an MFT replacement top for £75, delivered, including 6 bench dogs, from RS Pro CNC. There are other cheaper offerings on Ebay, including birch ply and the ubiquitous (on 10MW!) MR MDF, but I haven’t tried them. Can recommend the RS Pro CNC top however, came fast and well-packaged, and is on a factory-second Axminster MFT table, so I have an MFT setup for less than £150, although I do need to build a base for it
A point that I've laboured over in every video that I've done about MFTs - and that's a fair few - is that it's cheaper to buy an MFT top from CNC Designs - nee RS - than it is to make your own **provided all you want is a single, standard-size MFT top from MRMDF or Birch ply** Want something in a different material, or in a different size, or more than one, then these jigs can start to make sense. I bought my MFT top from Rick in Wrexham when I did my backyard budget MFT build, cost ~£75 including the top. 👍
I know it’s not cheap and beyond a lot of peoples budgets, but I have a Shaper Origin Handheld CNC. At £2500 it’s not cheap but you can do so much with it. Once you supply it with the SVG codes, you can MFT any board accurately to any hole design in one go. It part pays for its self in making all those expensive jigs, dogs bench squares, excessive router bits etc…etc. worth a review if you can get your hands on one.
Let's just say that most folks think the Parf guide is expensive at £200, and leave it at that! 👍
Peter i love watching your videos. Keep ip up bro.
Thanks! 👍
Come on Peter, let's see the ultimate DIY setup marking up with a rule and pencil and drilling out with a forstner bit! Maybe a a printed template at a push 😉
I pretty much did that when I made my plywood reference square, so it’s entirely doable, yes. 👍
Nice 1 Peter 👍 well presented and very fair assessments. Nice to see how interactive your channel is with viewers suggestions....big nod to you.
Thanks Jesse! 👍
I have 40cm of work surfaces all round. , Parf UKJ Park 2 you can use the rulers to make some mad setups, I've got my shed from side to side and end to end MFT's and all square.
Another very interesting video. I bought my MFT top from Rick at CNC Design in Wrexham three years ago and it has lasted me well. All their products are incredible value for money and the RS Pro jig is no exception and I think if I was in the market for a jig, to make a new top, them it would be the one that I would go for. Why pay oodles of dosh more for a smart shiny set, when all you want to do is drill a set of accurate holes in a sheet of MDF and from your test it seems the best value for money and very easy to use!
You can do a 30-60 degree grid with the parfguide system, which is also 90 degrees. That's my reason I bought the PGS.
I bought the parf guide system to make the Dzve Stanton bench as it gives off set and halfway hole.
Thanks for the breakdown, Peter! I ended up getting the Trend jig, and wanted to make people aware of a potential “gotcha” with regards to the bit.
Trend seems to make at least two 20mm router bits - the C030CX1/2TC, which is the one you’ve got linked, produced 20.2mm holes for me and some other people in the Amazon reviews. It also has only a 25mm cutting depth, which was just barely long enough for my router/guide bush combo to plunge through 18mm stock.
The C030DX1/2TC bit is specifically called out by trend as being suitable for mft top production, and presumably not oversized (I’m still waiting on mine to arrive from across the pond to confirm). It also has a 40mm depth of cut, offering more flexibility for material thicknesses.
All that to say - you may want to change your Amazon link to point to the C030DX1/2TC bit.
Thanks! The bit isn't the issue, it's the router. I'll have more on this soon. 👍
Thank you.
Great review as usual. I wish I moved as quickly as you do 😂. It’s the parf guide for me.
Thanks Michael, glad it was helpful! 👍
Personally I love the CNC designs jig, I have used it twice so far and each time it has been spot on.
Good product and great value. I found it quite tiring to use - all those little circular motions of the router - and surprisingly, slower than the trend to do a full top. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Very true, however I also used the handle holes to make larger ones around the edge for clamping holes to give more flexibility,
With those hip movements you should be on strictly come dancing 🤣.
Thanks for the review, very helpful.
Haha! Pretty sure I’d be out in the first round Dafydd! 😂
If you have a router buy the latter two. if you don't, buy the parfitt. The CNC jig being made of MDF will mean it could be affected by moisture or compression. The CNC is £45 but there's £15 postage on that. glad you have done this as was just about to purchase one. Think I will get CNC and varnish it!
The CNC designs jig is MRMDF, you'll have to take it in the shower with you for moisture to affect it. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Thanks Peter, good to know. That's the one I will get.
Nice about the parf system is that its easy to add off grid holes near the back edge to attach or reference the back fence giving some extra work space on the table. Extra holes are available to have 32 or 48 mm spacings.
Thanks, yes - I think I mentioned the alternative hole layouts and positions. 👍👍
Love this review. Now I need to purchase in US.
Would love to see all three boards stacked on top of each other, just to see if they all lined up. Cheers.
∆ This!
If I did that I’d get someone whining that I hadn’t used enough benchdogs, or I should do it with different ones at the top, or that I hadn’t used the correct benchdogs etc.. etc.. 🤷♂️
@@10MinuteWorkshop I hear you, but did they line up??
Hey Peter, good video comparison as usual. The interesting bit for me was the Trend jig. As we have had a conversation before before, I found that a 20mm bit cut a hole which was bigger than 20mm as you get a fraction of a wobble when you plunge down. Had the 20mm precision ground, for a fiver, to 19.85mm cuts a great dog hole now. For my guide I am using Bosches version of the LR32.
Another key point, which I found out the hard way, is use decent MDF. MR definitely as the smallest changes in the air humidity means dogs get stuck when the MDF swells just a fraction 🙈
Cheers Doug! That's a good price for a small but precise grind like that! 👌
@@10MinuteWorkshop agreed Peter, I did buy the 20mm bit from the company and they priced it as a resharpening
The best Peter, love your videos 👍
Great video! I guess the cnc design jig is the best for me. It is more easier to find a 1/2 inch bit with 2-3 inch length. Although it is slow, I don’t need to make dog holes frequently.
cracking on with the "boring" part, man I love puns hahahaha.
😆
Pretty interesting systems, Peter! 😃
Thanks a lot for all the comparison!
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Thanks, you too!
Excellent information, thank you
Hi Peter, you might want to check the accuracy over the distance of the top. Like a fence. My money would be on the part system!! Great videos as always. Thanks.
Oh, I have; there’s no discernible difference between any of the three tops. 👍
Peter hi, I have been a fan of yours for years and learnt a great deal from your great content. After watching your review I placed an order for the MFT temple and dogs for £ 95 on 16.02.2024. I sent a message straight after I placed the order because there was no acknowledgement of the order. I am still waiting to hear from the company. There is no phone number to ring!! I have no idea how to get a response from CNC Design? Who runs a company in 2024 without a telephone contact!!! I hope I haven't been conned because that would be a real shame since I assumed I was dealing with a reputable firm. I hope you can help. Best regards
Hi. I purchased the jig referenced here from CNC Design approx 2 years ago, and linked to it in the description as a convenience. But that’s the extent of my involvement with the company, as a customer. I’m sorry you haven’t had an experience that met your expectations, but using the information on the CNC Designs website and doing a quick google search for the company name ‘RS CNC Ltd’ brought up an immediate phone number. Hope that helps. P
I have the both the RS pro jig and the Parf mk2 system, I wasn't impressed with the RS pro jig. I ended up making 4 mft tops with it and each one the holes got progressively worse with slop, despite making sure the guide bush was a good fit. So i ended up biting the bullet and buying the Parf system which was better, but as you said a lot slower.
Interesting, thanks! Yes, I was surprised how much effort the RS jig too - those little circular motions were quite wearing, and whilst I had no issues, I did wonder if they'd cause problems with the jig moving, or the holes in the jig wearing. Good to hear the Parf guide is doing the business for you. 👍
When using the template and router did you make sure the bit was centered in the guide bushing? I have an OF1400 and to my surprise it was nowhere near centered.
One thing to add is the ability of the Parf system, but seemingly not the other two, to create isometric layouts and offset holes. May appeal to some.
Thanks! I really did mention the 'alternative hole layouts' that the Parf guide is capable of. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop I definitely heard you say that, amusing how many people have mentioned it. I've been looking at this for over two years, and was about to spring for the cheapest decent looking premade top, which is Trunkworks at $125 delivered in the US. But I checked and with a slight discount for the holiday I could get the Parf MKII, spring clips and tall dogs for them for well under $300. I think the flexibility and accuracy of this system wins out, when I make my third or fourth custom one it will have payed for itself, and it looks like it will last a long time. After all I invested in a Festool and rails, might as well give it a chance to work right. Thanks as always for great vids!
Thanks Peter, I was just about to buy the trend and watching your review really helped.
My pleasure! Glad it helped! 👍
Great video as always Peter, many thanks. I would be very interested to see another one on more jigs to do the odd alternative hole, if such a selection exists. For those times when you could just do with another hole right there. In particular, centre to two standard holes & centre to four standard holes. I would be hard pressed to justify the cost of the UJK Parf Guide 2 for a couple of holes. Your thoughts on the best way to go about it accurately with other standard kit would be interesting to.
Thanks Milo. You might want to watch this space - or join the member channel at 10minuteworkshop.plus - free signup at the moment, paid tiers won't start until August - as there might be a member video out in the next couple of weeks that will be of interest. 👍
Interesting I made mine without any of these products and the current state of the AUD makes purchases from the UK very exxy. I did mine in 4 goes because as you said it's very boring. One thing that does make a big difference is cleaning the bit after each 30 or so holes the glues in MDF and plywood really gunk things up. There must be a technical term for "gunk things up".
Hey gunk things up works for me!
I have the Mk1 Part Guide & it has served very well, but I can now feel a minuscule amount of wear in the rulers. The Mk2 is far superior as the drill never touches the ruler when drilling the 3mm holes. I contacted Axminster to see if an upgrade kit would be offered for Mk1 owners, which seems a reasonable proposition. Sadly they were not interested & I will, eventually, have a jig in pristine condition with worn rulers.
That’s a great shame, and thanks for raising the topic. I’ve never had my hands on a Parf 1 guide, I didn’t realise that the drilling procedure was different, though I do recall Peter Parfitt saying that the Mk2 was better engineered. I believe Axminster still sell the Mk1, so perhaps the rules are available as a spare part? If you use it enough you’ll end up with the same issue of course, but if it extends the value of your initial investment for a few more years it may be worth enquiring into? Let me know how you get on. Best, Peter
Great stuff Peter - as always!
Thanks! 👍
It would be interesting to hear some comments on applying a finish to a mft top. Some say no, yet I see a lot of tops with some kind of finish, perhaps spray polyurathane.
I’ve used all kinds of finishes, and never really found a difference between them. A finish will,generally make glue and paint spills easier to clean, and may help keep the top looking decent. 👍 I talk about it a little more in the DIY MFT video here - Ikea Curtain track DIY MFT [video 487] - ua-cam.com/video/223QALIbnRc/v-deo.html
What I have never worked out is why someone doesn’t hire out parf guides.
Nothing stopping you if you think it’s a good idea. Personally, I think there are far too many small components to keep track of, an easily damaged and not especially hard-wearing bit to factor in the replacement of, and long, thin, awkward to transport steel rulers to worry about. I’d be interested to hear what would you be prepared to pay for a weeks rental? 🤔
@@10MinuteWorkshop Clearly not many do, as I would have rented one by now to make a top.
They all look good Peter ,but the second i think was the best,just think making it a little larger and adding two more holes that ran in a 45 one at the bottom and one in the 90 degree corner then you could use all 10 holes,but then using a CNC would allow you to just repeat the drilling over and over and over...lol,couldnt help but notice you have a few extras now ,i see a sale coming one your webstore
Thanks Syd! Oh, Inhave a few other MFT projects planned, pretty sure they’ll all get used up! 😂👍
Peter, WoodPeckers USA, makes a jig similar to the Trend unit which uses a slightly undersized guide bushing and 1/2-inch router bit. This allows it to be used to drill both the 20-mm and 3/4-inch holes. You can buy it in three setups, for the 3/4-inch, the 20-mm, or a combination with both. I used it to drill a top out of Medium Density Overlay plywood in the 3/4-inch holes, that accommodate the standard 3/4 dogs, and accesories available in the US. Which I already have quite a few of. When/If the holes wear and get loose, I can then redo them to 20-mm. (MDO is plywood sold in the US for use as exterior sign panels, and concrete forms. It has phenolic surfaces, is very water resistant, and wears quite well. My experience with it is that it is very durable, and right now costs about the same as MR MDF at my local yard.)
Great info, thanks Randall! 🙌👍
I too have the WoodPeckers jig, and have had nothing but trouble with it. Main annoyance is that if there is the slightest bit of wood dust inside the hole/s in the phenolic template it makes the hole/s undersized, so you have to polish each hole between holes to get the dust off & it sticks in there very well. And if your vac doesn't catch ALL the dust as you cut the hole you get the same problem but you can't see it while you are cutting the hole. I got both the 3/4" and the 20mm bushings in my kit and the end result is that the 20mm guide makes roughly 3/4" holes and the 3/4 guide is even smaller. This may also prove to be the case with the CNC template. I'm looking at the Trend, but may have to pony up for the UJK Parf jig even if it is nearly twice the price.
Very good!
If I may ask,” We’re you able to measure the accuracy , hole to hole”?
Thank you for sharing not only your time, sharing your talent.
Bob
USA
Thanks! No - measuring to a fraction of a mm or degree is beyond my simple skills. I can take a triangle that’s been precision machined on a CNC that cost more than your car and mine together and check for square both on the edges and using the dog holes on 96mm centres, and I can make cuts over longer distances bearing against dogs in the holes and again, check for squareness. If it satisfies those simple tests, it’s ‘square enough’ for me, and as any engineer will tell you, there’s no such thing as square, just varying degrees of out of square! Thanks! Peter
12:32 if those small holes around the perimeter were 20mm and properly placed, you could use all ten of the holes for drilling all the time. And, the jig would be lighter
Except they're not, and you can't. And I'm sure the OEM would argue that they're properly placed for what they're meant to do... 🤷♂️ 👍
love my UJK system . I first bought WoodPeckers system and it was horribly off. I compounded fast with its template using 1/2 bit and template guide the larger you made the top. Ill have to get one of the Trend systems much faster. The UJK is nice but takes alot of time. The only down fall i see that can effect the routing systems is if you dont pre center your template guides on your router base perfect.
Yes, centring the guide bush with a mandrel is essential. 👍
Thanks Peter! How about using a new MFT top as a full size template?
You can, but it’s fiddly to do. I bought one to do that way back - before MFT jigs or affordable CNCs were a thing - and it’s a tight radius to copy with a flush trim bit, and surprisingly time-consuming. 🤷♂️👍
It is the best option imo, and 100% accurate. With a template 30mm holes and a 20 mm bit & guidebush it must be 100% centered and is not easy to do and stay centered all the way.
surely the trend jig with a slight modification could have the dog holes outside the 10 - so you have 10 avalable all the time
If only they made it big enough to allow for that. 🤷♂️
That looks like an interesting set of jigs, though the cheap Welsh one looks like a stand out star particularly at the budget end.
Yes, very good value. 👍
I did my mft style with the benchdog precision square by itself
I feel the simplicity of the Parf system was a little misleading as without the Festool drill system I’ve seen videos where it seems a real hassle with any other brand of drill.
I was going to suggest that the Trend jig could be rotated 90 degrees but I see that you have answered that quoting Trends guidance notes
For the 3rd jig, although supplied with a smaller router bit, would a 20mm router bit and bush not have been easier and quicker
As a mouldy oldie new to woodworking I have just made my top without a jig. Being careful in the layout, some initial routings were prone to a bit of wander but as it went on I was getting perfect fits for the orange ukj guides using no more than a dog and a trend router. I intend to work out how I will use it before having a second attempt and hopefully a near perfect top using my system
Any drill with a hex chuck will do - Bosch, Milwaukee, Makita etc… Dor the RS jig, it needs a 30mm guide bush and 12.7mm bit: substitute a 20mm bit and you’ll need a different guide bush. Or a different jig. 🤷♂️
Hmm... I would worry that my plunge router axis is not 100% centered in the bushing. Error would be doubled when you re-orient the top around.
That’s why you use a centring mandrel.
I have same problem, is not accurate at all, even with center tool(s)....MDF cutted board with holes made by a router template under a CNC and give a pile of dust, so not good at all......Used the Parf MKII and was much better, not perfect but for 99%.
I have the RS CNC jig and have now made 4 'standard' MFT tops with it 2 for myself and 2 for mates, can't really fault it especially at the price, made me wonder though if it would be possible to use a sized to fit bush and a 20mm router bit with it (as per the Trend) instead of the recommended 1/2" bit, would it retain the accuracy (with the 1/2" bit it's perfect, btw), feel an experiment coming on, great review Peter
Thanks John! Yes, indeed; let’s just say I’ll be taking the less ones learned from this experience forwards with me… 🤔👍
Love your work 👍
The thing that pushed me to the Parf system was the ease with which you could do in-between holes.
I am considering a new top. MRMDF or Trycora. I have had problems with damp as I use mine out doors as well as the work shop.
What do you do with all the old tops. Sell them💷💷. Once again very informative for those that need to keep making tips for site work. Speed and ease every time. Cheers.
They’ll either be used for future MFT projects or given away to channel members. One of the perks of membership! 👌👍
Great video Peter (as always 👍) I've had the RS jig for years now, back then it was £30 I think. And it works just as you said. Still got the same top I made (although it's time to change it now) so from my perspective I don't see the point of spending more money on something that you will not use that often and where all three options gave the same results. I would actually be inclined to get that Trend jig as it offer few more options and you can just use a 20mm bit. So for sure much quicker and easier. Plus it doesn't take that much space when stored.
Again great video 👍
Thanks Tomasz! Yes, a straight plunge with a 20mm bit is definitely faster; I was concerned the circular motion with the RSPro jig would cause potential movement issues, turns out the only issue was the need for concentration! 😂👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop hmm the motion on the RS jig can be a bit annoying and obviously it will take those few seconds more. But in the end it does the job. But if I were to choose a new one I would for sure go with the Trend one.
Hi you did forget to mention that the parf guide system can also do 30 degree and 60 degree mft tops which are very useful
No, I really didn't forget to mention 'alternative hole patterns and spacing' thanks. 👍
Did you do any squareness tests using the holes in the Benchdogs Precision Triangle. I find that that is a very exacting test. I prefer the UJK system as it should minimise or avoid cumulative error. It is possible to do a 20,21,29 triangle using the 32mm holes, making the triangle closer to an isosceles triangle.
No, completely forgot that you can do that with the benchdogs triangle! 🤷♂️
Sorry Peter, but I thought this review was full of holes. Luckily, not so your methodology nor analysis. All very balanced and as helpful as ever. I bought into a CNC cut slab following one of your earlier videos, but if choosing here I'd go for the Trend option as it seems to hit the sweet spot between cost and convenience. All the best.
Thanks Norman! 😂 👍
I've got the parf mark ii. I made an mft-style work top using a full sheet of plywood. One half was accurate and the other half was a bit off. User error? Probably. It took me quite a while to finish it.
I've been thinking about having a cnc shop make for me a large template out of 3/8" polycarbonate, maybe 30" x 40" with 30mm holes, 96mm on center.
I think the parf system has an inherent flaw. You place the rulers on top of each other in the triangle corner which slightly changes the length and therefore the position of the holes. This will accumulate if you need to make a full sheet.
@@gilad_paz
In my opinion what you're saying isn't an issue. Plus, to counter any possible effect the bending of the top ruler might have I shimmed it level, just to be sure. I used shims that were the same thickness of the bottom ruler and along the entire length. Again, I don't think that should be an issue. As I said, one side is perfect, the other side is off.
My issue is it took a long time. I'm a finish carpenter and I have plenty of patience to do detailed work, and the parf mark ii is good, it takes too long in my opinion.
@@gilad_paz
I'd bet that if I did it again I'd get it just about perfect, I'm not sure I have the patience. On the other hand how often do I need to make a new top? Every couple of years?
@@ThekiBoran thanks for your reply. I still think there may be a problem. No mater how you shim, seems to me there will always be at least on of the 3 rulers that will not be equally distanced from the sheet you are working on, on both of its ends. At least one end will be closer to the sheet then the other. Also, if you rais two ends of a ruler then maybe other issues will arise, and still another ruler will not be completly paralel to the sheet.
@@gilad_paz
It's been a year since I used the parf mark ii but it only has 2 rulers.
At first I was just going to buy a replacement MFT top, and use it as a template... with a flush cut router bit. And just use dogs to register it as I extend the grid. Then use the Parf reemer to _exact-ify_ the holes.
Do you see any issue with this? Maybe just wear on the original holes from the bearing? Thankyou.
No, no issues with this; best to screw the tops together, rather than clamp them or use dogs to register, and you really need to concentrate so’s not to mess up - that small circular motion is really awkward and doesn’t get any easier on repeat. My only question would be why bother, unless you need several or odd sizes or hole patterns, especially with MFT tops being a commodity?
I'd sooner pay 2x the price of a retail MFT top than use that UKJ parf system of tedium. It's ingenious, but no one stopped to think about the complete process, or they'd have realized it's an absolute waste of time.
Who says your getting older? I've never seen you move so quickly. Great review.
😂 Thanks! 👍
I guess there is 4th method. First, we need in FreeCad draw grid for board. Convert file to CNC Router suitable format and find CNC Router service and drill 3m holes. After we can drill holes.
If you’re going to get a CNC to drill 3mm holes why not just get them to drill the 20mm holes? 🤷♂️
@@10MinuteWorkshop in my town, drilling 3m holes are cheaper than drilling 20mm holes. And purpose of using CNC Router is get right dimensions for me.
Why am I paying 160 dollars or in some cases nearly 300 for a drill jig I'm making my own great vid though.
With the Tend jig, how do you not end up routing out the jig holes? Looks like you are just plunging down without any guide and you can’t possibly be accurately centered on every hole every time, thereby cutting at least a thin arc every time into the jig and ruining it after just a few cuts in each hole. Maybe there is some kind of guide? But I never saw it even after repeat watching. Thx!
The trend jig requires the use a 30mm guide bushing on the router to keep it centered in the holes.
Man drills lots of holes and makes smash hit UA-cam video. It’d never go viral on TikTok though.
Thanks for sharing Peter. I’m still minded to buy a ready-made MFT top though, even with the cheapest jig by the time you have added in the cost of the bit and the MDF slab, its cheaper to buy one that someone else has CNC’d (as long as you can accept a standard size MFT of course).
Haha, this is about as far from a smash hit as you’ll get Geoffrey! And at the risk of stating the obvious, it’s a video about MFT jigs & templates, for the folks who’ve already decided that’s the way to go for them, and just need a bit of advice about which system would be best to put their money into. 👍👍
A question on both of the router-based methods - how can you possibly get the guide bushing *perfectly* centered so rotation of the router doesn't introduce any error? I suppose if you try to keep the router in the same orientation for each hole, the error will be quite small indeed. It does look like you got a great result with all three methods!
You centre the guide bush with a mandrel. Works very well. 👍
I was wondering how the routing was working too. You just ‘plunged’ into the routing without showing how it was working. Why wasn’t the router bit routing into the jig and making it slightly larger with each plunge?