Good video, John, and great to see the Parf Guide system worked out so well after the initial hiccups. I'd be very happy with those results! Might be worth adding a small chamfer to the underside of the fence edge so that any loose sawdust on the table doesn't get trapped between the fence and the workpiece and throw the alignment slightly off.
A thing I do with this system just an a idea, is cut a small dust rebate in the bottom of the fence so when you side the mdf around the table up to the fence any mdf dust does not build up against the side of the fence and top of the table creating an inaccurate square. Loving the vids. Great work .
As usual, another brilliant video, just one word of advice from an engineer. When you are measuring with verniers make sure the work you are measuring is fully to the bottom of the jaws. That way you know that you are definitely measuring at 90 degrees to the width. Hope that makes sense, all the same, brilliant video. I have bought the Mk 2 but haven’t got round to my bench yet, all your hints will help me when I do. Keep up the good work 👍👍
This highlights how difficult it can be to make things perfectly square. MDF is inferior fence material because it has a soft fuzzy edge. I would try a rebate along the bottom of the fence to eliminate dust build up, and either hard wood or stout aluminium fence material to help reduce some of the cut to cut variation. That said, this table/fence combination is plenty square enough for cabinet work. Loved the video, thanks.
Hey John, You could put the fence back on the table again using the dogs, then run your saw on the other edge, that way you will have 2 sides dead accurate and you won't have too worry about making sure the fence is set up to the one side.
You're table and dog holes are likely as perfect as you can get. Your variable is probably the saw guide rail. I think the guide rails themselves are the weak link. The variance is well within perfect for woodworking 👍 Really nice build!
Just watched this again after some time as i will be getting the mkII kit soon. Great video and I had forgotten about your super idea for the fence! 👏👏 Had to laugh though when I saw that your solution to the Bosch track saw issue is to buy some additional bench dogs. Mine wouldnhave been to by a Festool track saw 😂😂 (says more about me and fools being parted with their money than it does about you!)
It is possible that your MFT top is perfectly square and any error is caused by sideways slop between the saw and the track. On my set up occasionally I have to tighten up the guide adjusting lugs on the saw base. I also use the UKJ spring clips to keep the guide rail tight to the dogs to stop any drift. Another good honest video by the way.
Brilliant. I've been struggling to work out the sequence for cutting a fence with a side perfectly parallel to the dog holes. Going to try this out today. Thanks!
Ive been messing around with my own custom mft style table and in doing so have looked at specs from almost every mft related product/tool out there. You can pick up a makita track for much cheaper than a festool and your bosch track saw will fit. No more bumping into your dogs!
The TSO quick adapters only work with festool guide rails. Anyone in the market for rails and parallel guides should consider festool rails and TSO parallel guides.
The best thing about a setup like this is flexibility. You can move the fence or the dogs anywhere on the table to accommodate different sizes of work pieces, you can add clamps through the dog holes to hold work pieces anywhere, and there are a lot of different dog hole clamps and fences available for purchase, or DIY.
Really impressed with your math skills 👍 and your safety awareness regarding working with mdf- good job. If you're looking at fences for a table like this, I would definitely look into Benchdogs because they have a system made specifically for guide rails. I damned near ordered one this morning but I have way too much invested in my Incra system. If it wasn't for that, I definitely would have chosen Benchdogs. Further you might want to look into the guide rail hinge system from either Benchdogs or Dashboard (I have the one from Dashboard O M G! 👍) If I see how you're wanting to use this table, then the guide rail dogs are not a viable option. It's great that your dog holes are dead on accurate, but trust me, a guide rail on a good hinge system is definitely the way to go - it's a day/night difference. Great video, looking forward to seeing more of you.
Have a look at Benchdogs uk, they also do a fence using dog holes, but their one has a small section that goes under the rails for small cuts. They also sell dogs with collars, so you can drop the dogs down low to avoid the motor and the collar can be set to not interfere with the base of the saw. :)
Maybe for your sacrificial insert you could remove the bulk of the material with your track saw, then clean it up to final depth with the router. MDF can be hard on router bits.
Good stuff John.😀👍 It is clearly accurate enough for woodworking. I think the calculation is in radians rather than degrees (edit - my bad just rewatched the calc - I see what you did there). It will be interesting to compare your numbers to Peter Parfitt’s tests - I will do that when I get a minute.😉 Peter did two recent tests the first not quite as good as the second - he determined that the saw was a bit too loose on the track and readjusted the friction knobs for the second test which was much improved. Has the Bosch got similar adjustment for the saw to track location?
Improving that error --> You can try re-cutting the same fence after you originally cut it once because the wood can release some stress after the first cut and you may find that the fence becomes more accurate when you do 2 or 3 cuts of the same edge. The less you cut off the edge the less stress released in the wood . A second point is if it is NOT more accurate after 2 cuts you can add a shim the size of the error and re-cut it so it becomes dead accurate. I have an original festool system (TS55) and it does not have the extra back slot like the new festool tracks. Unfortunately, it gives the same issue as the bosch. I am still trying to find a replacement for my tracks as they have a slight bow now but the festool saw is still perfect .
Greetings from Southern Ontario in Canada. Very much enjoying your informative videos. I have been busying myself creating a MFT style bench similar to your incorporating your brilliant sacrificial strip in an 18mm Baltic Birch top. I do not plan to add a router station as I still have a functional Veritas table that is probably 20 or more years old. I have several Mepla XP drawers left over from a kitchen I did for another home many years ago. I sort of collect good hardware incase I may need. I think I found a possible issue if using drawers below the top in the bench. I am therefore enclosing the end of the bench where the drawers will be located. I will install a piece of 3mm Baltic birch above the drawer section so dust will stopped from dropping into drawers. Sláinte
I noticed a couple of times you had to tweak after clamping it down (as if the clockwise twisting moves the board a bit). Maybe If you change the screw clamp to one of the ratchet-type lever clamps you might not have that trouble. In the meantime, move the clamp closer to the track so the board is less likely to pivot about one of the dogs.
just snap the final offcut in half, bring the two ends together and you can feel if they are identical width. Helpful tip if you are on site without a gauge and things are going wonky.
Thank you John! I've been considering the mft system for a while. I was going to go with the Trend router option as it's roughly half the price, but your tutorial, along with others, has convinced me to go with the more expensive option. Thanks for taking the time to share! Best regards from Glasgow and all the best for 2021.
Run the tracksaw down both sides of the fence so you can't put in on 'the wrong way round' so to speak. Both sides parallel to the dog holes and no need for arrows.
Like yourself woodworking is a hobby although I do put it in to practice both at home and for family and friends. Had a old Draper table-saw and replaced it with a New Dewalt one earlier this year. After watching some of your Videos over the past year I kinda think I should have gone for plunge and track system now.
If you make two fences, then you can have both on one side and leave a gap, so you can run blade between gap. :) I just made an 8x4 MFT top, I'm not a woodworker, so much too learn.....
hey john. I noticed u had a little bit of flex under the saw guide. I have a small suggestion if u don't mind me saying. Where u hsave lifted the guide with those pieces of MDF at each side u need to make sure the Saw guid sits perfectly on the cutting surface or u will always have that flex. Maybe I'm way off but I thought I saw that little bit of flex at the time u were making the square cuts? I guess my point should've been those little picecs u use to keep the Guide lifted at each side of ur table need to be the exact sme width as the piece u are cutting, if that makes any sense.. LOL Thee's a guy on UA-cam called Peter Lillard/ 10 Minute Workshop and he uses this system but his guide is a little different but he has his against the wall in his shop. His guide locks up against the wall but he has it fixed in a way so that any thickness of piece to be cut fits. He has some kind of fitting on his Festool saw Guide that allows it to lay falt on the piece he cuts everytime. Sorry mate. That was a gob full of nonsense from me.. LOL Love the look of the MFT work table now
Great demo, thankyou for posting! One question... did you use the same test board for the fence? If so, I'm thinking maybe you compounded _on top of_ the previous dog test?
@@JohnMcGrathManInShed see if it will work on the makita tracks. they are almost the same as festool but the anti tip lip is in the way of some saws. the makita rails are cheaper and the ruber strip is better. they are also 1500mm not 1400mm so it works better for cutting 1220mm sheets
The motor housing of my festool ts55r hits the short parf dog just a bit. Haven’t come to a solution for that, so no system is perfect. Made a large kitchen with that little flaw in the system no problem
OK, but where is the fifth cut? (4 + 1) Four cuts align the material to be formatted into a rectangle, which initialy can be even an irregular trapezoid. The first four cuts just remove the problem of doubts as to the starting material - they isolate from eventual previous shape errors. The fifth cut is the actual measurement cut. I do not want to look like a sticky guy, who is looking for a defect and necessarily wants to find it. But if precision, then let it be precision to the end! Besides, both, used tool (brilliant, simple idea) and the workbench itself make a very positive impression! :))) I like it so much that I'm already thinking how to make a similar one.
Great video John! It's a great bit of kit, but so fecken expensive though! I was considering just getting one but hard to justify the price when there's so many other tools on the list!!
What are ur thoughts on the Bosch Plunge/Track saw John? Are they ok for the money or would u give Makita's Track saw a try one day. I know everybody loves the old Festool but they're nonsense with the cost of them..
I noticed the error was positive in one test and negative in the other. Maybe just which end you measure first, but does it matter? Also, with a fence you have to keep the table very clean to be sure sawdust not get between the work and the fence. Raise the fence a 1/4 inch to let the trash go under it and out of the way. I noticed your out of sequence cuts too.
As I remember trigonometry the ratio of opposite hypotenuse to adjacent is the tangens of the angle not the angle itself. So 0.26 / 699 = 0.00037196, then arcustangens of this (the inverse tangens function, on calculators as 'atan()') is atan(0.00037196) = 0.021311734 rad which is 1.221072388 degrees. Then divided by 4 it is 0.305268097 degree. It is more then 57 TIMES worse than your 0.005327955 degree. Did I make a mistake in my calculations or you are wrong?
Great video as always I got the fence system from benchdogs.co.uk it is have to say so far it is good. they also do a cut off side fence that supports up to blade One thing I would recommend you get is some flag stops for what ever fence you go for as I found they speed up cutting down sheets for smaller parts.
I have the UJK low line fence..... I love the fence but hate the stops. They haven't slipped yet that I'm aware but don't feel as solid as it could be.
Great Video John. Love your channel. Just found it today. ONE QUESTION... Wouldn't it be a good thing to go through with the cut on the fence all the way and use that part for after the cut (to the right as viewed from cutting person. This way you'd have accurate fencing on both sides and therefore more support for any backlash and adding more cutting stability in the workpeice. OR is that a no - no when cutting for a good reason that I'm not aware of. I'm kind of new at this and am getting my CNC in Next Week ... and I'll start building my MFT table shortly (with the CNC).
Yeah a fence on both sides of the cut is better, like I say you can use it as a sacrificial fence an cut straight through it. They are easy make and replace.
Thanks. I'm planning on a project similar to this :) Have you considered just using at Festool rail for the table? Should work fine with the Bosch saws.
I have a question on using a track saw. I got a new circular saw and was going to make a plywood track for it. That got me thinking on how to use it when I am done. In your video you had a big piece of stock and what if you needed a 2 inch piece cut from it. What I have seen is you measure 2 inches from each end and draw a line and put your track up against it and make the cut. Seems to me your piece is not going to be two inches wide but two inches minus the thickness of your saw blade. I saw one video were a piece of stock was screwed 90 degrees to the track on one end. The saw was run over it scoring a cerf line in it. I think you could set your track away from you cut line by the width of the cerf line in the 90 degree piece to get your full two inch piece. Most of the videos using a miter saw caution you to cut on the waste side of your line so your keeper piece will not be short by the width of the blade. You have to keep this in mind when using a table saw also. So how do you use your track saw to get the full width of the piece you need?
I guess you wouldn't use this for breaking down a full sheet, even if it fitted on the table? Over a full 8ft length you would be 0.5mm out (just to mix my measurement units) so you would measure at both ends and use the track without a dog system?
How accurate should the MFT table be? For instance the Festool MFT and such. Reason i ask is i purchased jig to make the grid and was not happy with the accuracy. I could not get past a 6x16 hole layout with out seeing runoff due to the guides locking in the jig had some slop. I might get it to be better if i add around the template guide to tighten the tollerances. But when i contact the manufacture they claim that tables are never accurate its the fence system that makes the accuracy and i was expecting too much even thought there jig was at a premium price off $199. Purchased this one due to UJK was out of stock but now i have one but have not used it yet. This was the response when i gave them the numbers that either the jig was off or the supplied Template guide was off. Hello Cliff. There is a big misconception with MFT tables and tops. The accuracy of a Festool MFT table comes from the actual rails that are part of the table itself. All of the Festool attachments are attached and referenced off of the rails. Not the table. If you think about all the “connections” from the router to the actual hole there are a lot of variables at play Router bit. Bushing to router. Bushing to template. Indexing pin to template. Indexing pin to hole. Locating pins to the template. Locating pins to the workpiece. potential runout in the router collet There has to be sufficient clearance between each of those for them to work. As you add holes, that “stackup” error will grow. The only way to avoid that would be to key off of the same location for each hole. Essentially what a CNC does. You want to make sure that there is no movement in the template when drilling the first holes. The template must be firmly clampled in place. The Festool MFT table is a clamping/work table. Without the additional fence system, it cannot be used to make accurate cuts. Once you install the Fence system, you must calibrate the track to the fence. At no time are the holes a part of that calibration as the holes are only used for clamps and stop etc. Even if done on a CNC, with the movements and wear in MDF/wood, even the Festool table is not very accurate. Check the Festool marketing data and you will not find anything about using the holes to make cuts, only for work holding. The accuracy comes from the MFT table rails.
Regarding the bench dogs fouling the saw, would is be more cost effective to cut a set down to the same hight or just below the height of your track so they clear? I know you mentioned you can buy dedicated dogs that resolve the issue, just wondered if it would be a simpler/cheaper option to modify what you already have? Great video. Have been really enjoying this series 👍👌
@@alland1241 just have a set cut for each standard dimension sheet material... 6/9/12/18 and so on... 🤷♂️ would mean you have options and ready to be used as and when needed. That would be my vote anyway 😅👍
@@ogeoffreys A pair of these would be a hell of a lot easier if your just cutting sheets benchdogs.co.uk/products/mini-guide-rail-dogs-festool-makita-triton the longer ones can be a pain if you don't need the height
Instead of dividing by (4 x 699), would it be more accurate taking the width of each respective cut-off into account (699 x 4 + width cut-off #1 + width cut-off #2 + width cut-off #3)?
It’s really hard to explain but the width of the cutoffs are irrelevant; you can cut off any amount and the results should be the same. Even the last cut could be a very narrow piece. The length of the cuts doesn’t matter either although you do need to know the length of the last piece.
As usual fantastic video. Question my local shop ,(Tufts) only sell the 25mm standard MDF. I guess I could seal it with some sanding sealer. Do you think this would be ok? if not I'll have to look further for moisture resistant. Cheers
Hola, soy de Mexico, me gusta tu trabajo y tengo dos preguntas, que marca y modelo es tu sierra circular? y como es que cuando cortas el mdf no se ve que se marque o ranure la mesa con la sierra? la verdad es que no se alcanza a apreciar en el video. saludos.
This is a great system but can you set up repeatable cuts to any width eg if you want # strips of mdf 43mm wide exactly? I’ve used a track saw for about 10 years now and they are great but if you want small pieces it has to be on the waste side which isn’t ideal. That’s one of the areas where a table saw is better albeit not so portable :)
(Just for fun) It's not a mathematically perfect system anyway as it overlaps one ruler over another when measuring out so will be slightly under 90 degrees but we are talking microns and arcseconds!
@@JohnMcGrathManInShed I did read through your pinned comment when you mentioned the "3 cut" error whilst cutting, but I was referring to when you were doing the measurements of the diagonals towards the end of the video. To me it looks like you rotated the board 180 degrees between measurements, when it should only be 90 degrees
Curious what is considered “close enough”? Jumping through some serious hoops here. Once this piece is assembled into a cabinet (or whatever it will be used for) it will change considerably. Joinery methods, glue, fasteners, variable thickness of the piece itself will all affect the “squareness” of the finished project. Etc, etc, etc. Then, next week it will rain, and the week after that it will be dry and the temperature will rise 15 degrees. These factors will all change that “perceived squareness”. After that we deliver the cabinet to an out of square and out of plumb house to install the cabinet. Not saying that we shouldn’t strive for “perfection” what I am saying, is the customer will never appreciate your efforts, and will never pay for your efforts. Nice job! Close enough! Get to work and make some money! Learn to run a profitable business.
Wrong here. There are imperfections in life, that's a given. But a tighter tolerance beats a lucky fit on any day. If one can get the workpiece down to 0.1mm tolerance, the amount of play afterwards has a much higher probability of staying within "squareness" by eye.
Taking delivery of my Benchdogs 2000mm fence this week. I like it as it has flag-stops, an under rail support, metric scale. Hopefully building 2 mft style tops ( like in the video) but 1200 x 1400 that can be joined together when needed. This way I can take a single unit out on site. Crosscut will be via a Festool rail with magnetic dogs from Sautershop.de. Appreciate the video. I'll be using this method.
I'm not so sure that a 0.26 or 0.010 inch error is very good if you want to joint anything together. A 10 thou gap is quite annoyingly visible & considering my calibrated DeWalt table saw, will cut 1.5 thou or 0.0015" or 0.038mm error in 500mm. I have to say, I'm not positively impressed with your setup.
@@JohnMcGrathManInShed 8x4 sheet set out the same as your own. Going to build a frame on castors to move around the shed. I'm in no rush for it. How much do u think it would cost?
Unless you make all four cuts, I don’t think your results are meaningful because the first edge is your reference measurement edge. Unless the angle between sides #1 and #4 is a perfect 90 degrees, you’re comparing your final cut to an unknown entity.
You might already by aware of them but you might want to look at www.benchdogs.co.uk for their rear fence for a mft. The Woodgrafter channel on youtube has done several reviews of their products.
Matt Estela had the same problem with his Bosch track saw and the dogs (ua-cam.com/video/cfxF-EtfOfA/v-deo.html) unfortunately he only suggested the same solution as you. This is one reason I'm not going to get the bosch track saw.
![3 MFT Tops, 3 MFT jigs [Video 498]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9DhLQPrjnik/mqdefault.jpg)
OK I messed up testing the fence I just noticed, Its more a 3 cut test!!! I turned the board the wrong way for one cut. But it's still square lol
When you're down to fractions of a degree out, it's square enough, you're not sending anything to the moon!
@@nialstewart8263 Inertial measurement Unit on Space Shuttle resolves to 20 arc second, whatever that is in radians. (3600 seconds in a degree).
@@tpobrienjr A quick google gives 0.00555.. degreesfor 20 arc seconds. John's first effort with the bench dogs was better! :-)
@@nialstewart8263 NASA will be on the phone soon! 😂
Actually 5 cuts but you put side 2 against the fence twice. Still square enough to get the jobs done. Nice video.
Why isnt this channel at 500k your one of the best carpentry chanels out there.
some day lol
Good video, John, and great to see the Parf Guide system worked out so well after the initial hiccups. I'd be very happy with those results!
Might be worth adding a small chamfer to the underside of the fence edge so that any loose sawdust on the table doesn't get trapped between the fence and the workpiece and throw the alignment slightly off.
A thing I do with this system just an a idea, is cut a small dust rebate in the bottom of the fence so when you side the mdf around the table up to the fence any mdf dust does not build up against the side of the fence and top of the table creating an inaccurate square. Loving the vids. Great work .
As usual, another brilliant video, just one word of advice from an engineer. When you are measuring with verniers make sure the work you are measuring is fully to the bottom of the jaws. That way you know that you are definitely measuring at 90 degrees to the width. Hope that makes sense, all the same, brilliant video. I have bought the Mk 2 but haven’t got round to my bench yet, all your hints will help me when I do.
Keep up the good work 👍👍
Thanks for the tip
I never know how hard to squeeze when measuring wood
@@vapeurdepisse get a gauge block, and practice measuring it, practice achieving consistent pressure so you get consistent results.
This highlights how difficult it can be to make things perfectly square. MDF is inferior fence material because it has a soft fuzzy edge. I would try a rebate along the bottom of the fence to eliminate dust build up, and either hard wood or stout aluminium fence material to help reduce some of the cut to cut variation. That said, this table/fence combination is plenty square enough for cabinet work. Loved the video, thanks.
Hey John, You could put the fence back on the table again using the dogs, then run your saw on the other edge, that way you will have 2 sides dead accurate and you won't have too worry about making sure the fence is set up to the one side.
You're table and dog holes are likely as perfect as you can get. Your variable is probably the saw guide rail. I think the guide rails themselves are the weak link.
The variance is well within perfect for woodworking 👍
Really nice build!
I just finished my MFT table top using the Parf MK ll GuideSystem. So it great to find this particular video content.
Thank you
Glad it was helpful!
Just watched this again after some time as i will be getting the mkII kit soon. Great video and I had forgotten about your super idea for the fence! 👏👏
Had to laugh though when I saw that your solution to the Bosch track saw issue is to buy some additional bench dogs. Mine wouldnhave been to by a Festool track saw 😂😂 (says more about me and fools being parted with their money than it does about you!)
It is possible that your MFT top is perfectly square and any error is caused by sideways slop between the saw and the track. On my set up occasionally I have to tighten up the guide adjusting lugs on the saw base. I also use the UKJ spring clips to keep the guide rail tight to the dogs to stop any drift. Another good honest video by the way.
Brilliant idea John. I was going to buy a fence but now I’ll make one like yours. You’ve saved me a bunch of cash. Thank you so much. Peter
Very welcome!
Brilliant. I've been struggling to work out the sequence for cutting a fence with a side perfectly parallel to the dog holes. Going to try this out today. Thanks!
Ive been messing around with my own custom mft style table and in doing so have looked at specs from almost every mft related product/tool out there. You can pick up a makita track for much cheaper than a festool and your bosch track saw will fit. No more bumping into your dogs!
The TSO quick adapters only work with festool guide rails. Anyone in the market for rails and parallel guides should consider festool rails and TSO parallel guides.
Great video, and the previous build video. I’m sure this will make my build next week a whole lot better.
The best thing about a setup like this is flexibility. You can move the fence or the dogs anywhere on the table to accommodate different sizes of work pieces, you can add clamps through the dog holes to hold work pieces anywhere, and there are a lot of different dog hole clamps and fences available for purchase, or DIY.
Really impressed with your math skills 👍 and your safety awareness regarding working with mdf- good job.
If you're looking at fences for a table like this, I would definitely look into Benchdogs because they have a system made specifically for guide rails. I damned near ordered one this morning but I have way too much invested in my Incra system. If it wasn't for that, I definitely would have chosen Benchdogs.
Further you might want to look into the guide rail hinge system from either Benchdogs or Dashboard (I have the one from Dashboard O M G! 👍) If I see how you're wanting to use this table, then the guide rail dogs are not a viable option. It's great that your dog holes are dead on accurate, but trust me, a guide rail on a good hinge system is definitely the way to go - it's a day/night difference.
Great video, looking forward to seeing more of you.
What A Fellow Irishman.
And he's a woodworking
And a youtuber
Well Holy God.
Mighty.
New subscribers here
Brother of the hammer here in Kildare. 🔨🔨👍👍
Welcome aboard!
Have a look at Benchdogs uk, they also do a fence using dog holes, but their one has a small section that goes under the rails for small cuts. They also sell dogs with collars, so you can drop the dogs down low to avoid the motor and the collar can be set to not interfere with the base of the saw. :)
I really enjoyed this video. Having just installed my first MFT bench you have given me some good ideas for a decent cross cut setup. Cheers 👍😎🇦🇺
No problem, glad it was helpful
I enjoyed how you explained the 5 cut method. Thanks for this
You are welcome
You could surpass other how to videos with your extended content, skill, and thoroughness
Great job
Glad you think so!
I really like your home made fence, that is exactly what I'm looking for. Thks
Hi John im new to track saw. I brought into bosch and thought i was going mad with my track saw hitting the dogs! Thanks for the clarity.
Glad to help
Nice job demonstrating the MFT accuracy. Thanks for sharing!
No problem!
Maybe for your sacrificial insert you could remove the bulk of the material with your track saw, then clean it up to final depth with the router. MDF can be hard on router bits.
Very interesting. Looking forward to watching how you make the sacrificial insert as I don’t like cutting into my table. Thanks for sharing 👍
You are welcome!
Great video, great ideas. I made a table using the jig and I love it. I have bought some Veritas planning stops that also work amazing for a fence.
Not to shabby John ! I don’t think you can ask for better than that!
Brilliant! Thank you
No problem glad you liked it
Good stuff John.😀👍
It is clearly accurate enough for woodworking.
I think the calculation is in radians rather than degrees (edit - my bad just rewatched the calc - I see what you did there). It will be interesting to compare your numbers to Peter Parfitt’s tests - I will do that when I get a minute.😉
Peter did two recent tests the first not quite as good as the second - he determined that the saw was a bit too loose on the track and readjusted the friction knobs for the second test which was much improved. Has the Bosch got similar adjustment for the saw to track location?
It does you can tighten it onto the track
@@JohnMcGrathManInShed maybe tighten a tadge and see if you can improve?
Improving that error -->
You can try re-cutting the same fence after you originally cut it once because the wood can release some stress after the first cut and you may find that the fence becomes more accurate when you do 2 or 3 cuts of the same edge. The less you cut off the edge the less stress released in the wood . A second point is if it is NOT more accurate after 2 cuts you can add a shim the size of the error and re-cut it so it becomes dead accurate.
I have an original festool system (TS55) and it does not have the extra back slot like the new festool tracks. Unfortunately, it gives the same issue as the bosch. I am still trying to find a replacement for my tracks as they have a slight bow now but the festool saw is still perfect .
Your videos are great. You’ve about got me convinced to build my own.
Glad you are enjoying the content 👍
Greetings from Southern Ontario in Canada. Very much enjoying your informative videos. I have been busying myself creating a MFT style bench similar to your incorporating your brilliant sacrificial strip in an 18mm Baltic Birch top. I do not plan to add a router station as I still have a functional Veritas table that is probably 20 or more years old. I have several Mepla XP drawers left over from a kitchen I did for another home many years ago. I sort of collect good hardware incase I may need.
I think I found a possible issue if using drawers below the top in the bench. I am therefore enclosing the end of the bench where the drawers will be located. I will install a piece of 3mm Baltic birch above the drawer section so dust will stopped from dropping into drawers.
Sláinte
Hi Terry hope all is well in Ontario! thanks for the tip.
I noticed a couple of times you had to tweak after clamping it down (as if the clockwise twisting moves the board a bit). Maybe If you change the screw clamp to one of the ratchet-type lever clamps you might not have that trouble. In the meantime, move the clamp closer to the track so the board is less likely to pivot about one of the dogs.
just snap the final offcut in half, bring the two ends together and you can feel if they are identical width. Helpful tip if you are on site without a gauge and things are going wonky.
Thank you John!
I've been considering the mft system for a while. I was going to go with the Trend router option as it's roughly half the price, but your tutorial, along with others, has convinced me to go with the more expensive option.
Thanks for taking the time to share!
Best regards from Glasgow and all the best for 2021.
You are very welcome, I'm glad it was useful.
Only downside on a MFT jig is the router/bit, it must be 100% in the center of the guide bush.
Run the tracksaw down both sides of the fence so you can't put in on 'the wrong way round' so to speak. Both sides parallel to the dog holes and no need for arrows.
Like yourself woodworking is a hobby although I do put it in to practice both at home and for family and friends. Had a old Draper table-saw and replaced it with a New Dewalt one earlier this year. After watching some of your Videos over the past year I kinda think I should have gone for plunge and track system now.
Worth noting, a track saw is the only way you’re gonna get a perfectly square cut on sheet good ! This is from a guy that has a $3,500 tablesaw !
🤣🤣🤣 I'm not THAT good at maths.
Great video, even better with mistakes, because we all make them
I never make mistakes and I have too many clamps.
Pretty impressive table, John! Really nice! 😃
Maybe I build something like that for me some day!
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
If you make two fences, then you can have both on one side and leave a gap, so you can run blade between gap. :) I just made an 8x4 MFT top, I'm not a woodworker, so much too learn.....
This is brilliant..Can't wait to try it! Thank you!!
You are welcome!
If you put a dog on the waste side of the cut line it might help the piece from rocking about until you get a fence working
If you are only removing a small amount the piece doesn't always reach the dog on the waste side.
@@JohnMcGrathManInShed true, just an idea for now.
hey john. I noticed u had a little bit of flex under the saw guide. I have a small suggestion if u don't mind me saying. Where u hsave lifted the guide with those pieces of MDF at each side u need to make sure the Saw guid sits perfectly on the cutting surface or u will always have that flex. Maybe I'm way off but I thought I saw that little bit of flex at the time u were making the square cuts? I guess my point should've been those little picecs u use to keep the Guide lifted at each side of ur table need to be the exact sme width as the piece u are cutting, if that makes any sense.. LOL
Thee's a guy on UA-cam called Peter Lillard/ 10 Minute Workshop and he uses this system but his guide is a little different but he has his against the wall in his shop. His guide locks up against the wall but he has it fixed in a way so that any thickness of piece to be cut fits. He has some kind of fitting on his Festool saw Guide that allows it to lay falt on the piece he cuts everytime. Sorry mate. That was a gob full of nonsense from me.. LOL
Love the look of the MFT work table now
Good saw for the money
Another good video mate, I have no interest in a mft table but, I still enjoy the video 😃
Great demo, thankyou for posting! One question... did you use the same test board for the fence? If so, I'm thinking maybe you compounded _on top of_ the previous dog test?
Super John!!!
You can use your Bosch Tracksaw with Festool tracks. It’s compatible.
yeah I might look at that
@@JohnMcGrathManInShed see if it will work on the makita tracks. they are almost the same as festool but the anti tip lip is in the way of some saws. the makita rails are cheaper and the ruber strip is better. they are also 1500mm not 1400mm so it works better for cutting 1220mm sheets
The motor housing of my festool ts55r hits the short parf dog just a bit. Haven’t come to a solution for that, so no system is perfect. Made a large kitchen with that little flaw in the system no problem
OK, but where is the fifth cut? (4 + 1) Four cuts align the material to be formatted into a rectangle, which initialy can be even an irregular trapezoid. The first four cuts just remove the problem of doubts as to the starting material - they isolate from eventual previous shape errors. The fifth cut is the actual measurement cut.
I do not want to look like a sticky guy, who is looking for a defect and necessarily wants to find it. But if precision, then let it be precision to the end!
Besides, both, used tool (brilliant, simple idea) and the workbench itself make a very positive impression! :))) I like it so much that I'm already thinking how to make a similar one.
Great video John! It's a great bit of kit, but so fecken expensive though! I was considering just getting one but hard to justify the price when there's so many other tools on the list!!
Yeah Its not cheap but if you make a few tables It would quickly pay for itself
Nice Vid John. x
How can I make donkey ear shooting board to make hexagon boxes much appreciate your help thank you John O’Connell.
Great video John ,thanks
Glad you enjoyed it
What are ur thoughts on the Bosch Plunge/Track saw John? Are they ok for the money or would u give Makita's Track saw a try one day. I know everybody loves the old Festool but they're nonsense with the cost of them..
No dogs were harmed in the making of this video.
I noticed the error was positive in one test and negative in the other. Maybe just which end you measure first, but does it matter? Also, with a fence you have to keep the table very clean to be sure sawdust not get between the work and the fence. Raise the fence a 1/4 inch to let the trash go under it and out of the way. I noticed your out of sequence cuts too.
As I remember trigonometry the ratio of opposite hypotenuse to adjacent is the tangens of the angle not the angle itself. So 0.26 / 699 = 0.00037196, then arcustangens of this (the inverse tangens function, on calculators as 'atan()') is atan(0.00037196) = 0.021311734 rad which is 1.221072388 degrees. Then divided by 4 it is 0.305268097 degree. It is more then 57 TIMES worse than your 0.005327955 degree. Did I make a mistake in my calculations or you are wrong?
God dammit, that fence idea is brilliant and so simple. I was searching so long for a self made alternative. Thank you! All the best form Austria
0.07mm over 699mm or 0.23mm over 2440mm, not bad table must have been made in limerick :)
ha ha ha ha feck off
Great Vid. Excellent money saving here considering the ujk one is expensive. Got to try this tomorrow.
I saw that too. Good work anyway.
Great video as always I got the fence system from benchdogs.co.uk
it is have to say so far it is good. they also do a cut off side fence that supports up to blade
One thing I would recommend you get is some flag stops for what ever fence you go for
as I found they speed up cutting down sheets for smaller parts.
Thanks for the info!
Defo recommend the BenchDogs fence system with flag stops, it’s excellent 👍.
If you marked the ends of the last strip, you would know whether the error angle was plus or minus... Thanks for showing the test.
good point.
What number would you not have been happy at.
Great video. Love the work bench
Not sure, if its close to British standard for square I would be happy.
I have the UJK low line fence..... I love the fence but hate the stops. They haven't slipped yet that I'm aware but don't feel as solid as it could be.
That would be a concern
Great Video John. Love your channel. Just found it today. ONE QUESTION... Wouldn't it be a good thing to go through with the cut on the fence all the way and use that part for after the cut (to the right as viewed from cutting person. This way you'd have accurate fencing on both sides and therefore more support for any backlash and adding more cutting stability in the workpeice. OR is that a no - no when cutting for a good reason that I'm not aware of. I'm kind of new at this and am getting my CNC in Next Week ... and I'll start building my MFT table shortly (with the CNC).
Yeah a fence on both sides of the cut is better, like I say you can use it as a sacrificial fence an cut straight through it. They are easy make and replace.
Definitely get the Parf fence though 👌
Thanks. I'm planning on a project similar to this :)
Have you considered just using at Festool rail for the table? Should work fine with the Bosch saws.
Yeah it's something I'm looking at
I totaly didnt understand your counting of 4 sides cut :) but nice video :)
I have a question on using a track saw. I got a new circular saw and was going to make a plywood track for it. That got me thinking on how to use it when I am done. In your video you had a big piece of stock and what if you needed a 2 inch piece cut from it. What I have seen is you measure 2 inches from each end and draw a line and put your track up against it and make the cut. Seems to me your piece is not going to be two inches wide but two inches minus the thickness of your saw blade. I saw one video were a piece of stock was screwed 90 degrees to the track on one end. The saw was run over it scoring a cerf line in it. I think you could set your track away from you cut line by the width of the cerf line in the 90 degree piece to get your full two inch piece. Most of the videos using a miter saw caution you to cut on the waste side of your line so your keeper piece will not be short by the width of the blade. You have to keep this in mind when using a table saw also. So how do you use your track saw to get the full width of the piece you need?
As you said you have to account for the kerf of the blade. Search for UA-cam video on tricky track saw cuts by Peter Millard.
I guess you wouldn't use this for breaking down a full sheet, even if it fitted on the table?
Over a full 8ft length you would be 0.5mm out (just to mix my measurement units) so you would measure at both ends and use the track without a dog system?
Nice
How accurate should the MFT table be? For instance the Festool MFT and such. Reason i ask is i purchased jig to make the grid and was not happy with the accuracy. I could not get past a 6x16 hole layout with out seeing runoff due to the guides locking in the jig had some slop. I might get it to be better if i add around the template guide to tighten the tollerances. But when i contact the manufacture they claim that tables are never accurate its the fence system that makes the accuracy and i was expecting too much even thought there jig was at a premium price off $199. Purchased this one due to UJK was out of stock but now i have one but have not used it yet.
This was the response when i gave them the numbers that either the jig was off or the supplied Template guide was off.
Hello Cliff. There is a big misconception with MFT tables and tops. The accuracy of a Festool MFT table comes from the actual rails that are part of the table itself. All of the Festool attachments are attached and referenced off of the rails. Not the table. If you think about all the “connections” from the router to the actual hole there are a lot of variables at play
Router bit.
Bushing to router.
Bushing to template.
Indexing pin to template.
Indexing pin to hole.
Locating pins to the template.
Locating pins to the workpiece.
potential runout in the router collet
There has to be sufficient clearance between each of those for them to work. As you add holes, that “stackup” error will grow. The only way to avoid that would be to key off of the same location for each hole. Essentially what a CNC does. You want to make sure that there is no movement in the template when drilling the first holes. The template must be firmly clampled in place.
The Festool MFT table is a clamping/work table. Without the additional fence system, it cannot be used to make accurate cuts. Once you install the Fence system, you must calibrate the track to the fence. At no time are the holes a part of that calibration as the holes are only used for clamps and stop etc.
Even if done on a CNC, with the movements and wear in MDF/wood, even the Festool table is not very accurate. Check the Festool marketing data and you will not find anything about using the holes to make cuts, only for work holding. The accuracy comes from the MFT table rails.
WOW
Regarding the bench dogs fouling the saw, would is be more cost effective to cut a set down to the same hight or just below the height of your track so they clear? I know you mentioned you can buy dedicated dogs that resolve the issue, just wondered if it would be a simpler/cheaper option to modify what you already have? Great video. Have been really enjoying this series 👍👌
depends on the thickness of the sheet you are cutting, if you cut them down for 18mm then tried to cut 6mm you would need to cut them down again
@@alland1241 just have a set cut for each standard dimension sheet material... 6/9/12/18 and so on... 🤷♂️ would mean you have options and ready to be used as and when needed. That would be my vote anyway 😅👍
@@ogeoffreys A pair of these would be a hell of a lot easier if your just cutting sheets benchdogs.co.uk/products/mini-guide-rail-dogs-festool-makita-triton the longer ones can be a pain if you don't need the height
Instead of dividing by (4 x 699), would it be more accurate taking the width of each respective cut-off into account (699 x 4 + width cut-off #1 + width cut-off #2 + width cut-off #3)?
It’s really hard to explain but the width of the cutoffs are irrelevant; you can cut off any amount and the results should be the same. Even the last cut could be a very narrow piece. The length of the cuts doesn’t matter either although you do need to know the length of the last piece.
As usual fantastic video. Question my local shop ,(Tufts) only sell the 25mm standard MDF. I guess I could seal it with some sanding sealer. Do you think this would be ok? if not I'll have to look further for moisture resistant. Cheers
if your workshop is good and dry you should be ok
Be certain to apply finish prior to drilling. Finish in the holes will not permit the dogs to fit.
Hola, soy de Mexico, me gusta tu trabajo y tengo dos preguntas, que marca y modelo es tu sierra circular? y como es que cuando cortas el mdf no se ve que se marque o ranure la mesa con la sierra? la verdad es que no se alcanza a apreciar en el video. saludos.
I can't gey on with mft. All I anted to do is make some racking for my van and it's been a nightmare.
This is a great system but can you set up repeatable cuts to any width eg if you want # strips of mdf 43mm wide exactly? I’ve used a track saw for about 10 years now and they are great but if you want small pieces it has to be on the waste side which isn’t ideal. That’s one of the areas where a table saw is better albeit not so portable :)
You can use waste side jig or make one yourself. Peter Millard has video on tricky track saw cuts that solves the issue.
@@meperson thanks for heads up, his channel is very informative
Old woodworker here, trying to understand the big draw to a MFT as opposed to an old school work bench.
Thoughts?
Can you rip 1x2s using his method?
Have you also purchased the parf repeat stop? What's your take on that accessoiry
Not yet
It should be a 5 cut test, the 5th strip is where the measurement is taken.
Is it possible to put t-track and flag stops to the MDF/devil's wood fence?
you could f you make it thick enough
0.6MM OUT FROM ONE END TO OTHER is that good enough ??? not for me.
Bench dogs UK do a nice fence with flag stop.
I have been checking them out looks like good stuff and plenty of options too!
(Just for fun) It's not a mathematically perfect system anyway as it overlaps one ruler over another when measuring out so will be slightly under 90 degrees but we are talking microns and arcseconds!
Is it me, or at the 17:20 mark on the video, it looks like you rotated the board by 180 degrees, hence you are showing the same measurement twice?
Yes I messed up I rotated the board the wrong way for one cut and cut the same side twice. It's pinned in the first comment on the video.
@@JohnMcGrathManInShed I did read through your pinned comment when you mentioned the "3 cut" error whilst cutting, but I was referring to when you were doing the measurements of the diagonals towards the end of the video. To me it looks like you rotated the board 180 degrees between measurements, when it should only be 90 degrees
@@whatdaf11 I measured it about ten times it's good, believe me if it wasn't square I would be the first to say it.
Curious what is considered “close enough”? Jumping through some serious hoops here. Once this piece is assembled into a cabinet (or whatever it will be used for) it will change considerably. Joinery methods, glue, fasteners, variable thickness of the piece itself will all affect the “squareness” of the finished project. Etc, etc, etc.
Then, next week it will rain, and the week after that it will be dry and the temperature will rise 15 degrees. These factors will all change that “perceived squareness”. After that we deliver the cabinet to an out of square and out of plumb house to install the cabinet.
Not saying that we shouldn’t strive for “perfection” what I am saying, is the customer will never appreciate your efforts, and will never pay for your efforts.
Nice job! Close enough! Get to work and make some money!
Learn to run a profitable business.
Wrong here. There are imperfections in life, that's a given. But a tighter tolerance beats a lucky fit on any day. If one can get the workpiece down to 0.1mm tolerance, the amount of play afterwards has a much higher probability of staying within "squareness" by eye.
Check out the bench dogs guide fence and fence dogs, very good items to add to your mft benchdogs.co.uk/
Taking delivery of my Benchdogs 2000mm fence this week. I like it as it has flag-stops, an under rail support, metric scale. Hopefully building 2 mft style tops ( like in the video) but 1200 x 1400 that can be joined together when needed. This way I can take a single unit out on site. Crosscut will be via a Festool rail with magnetic dogs from Sautershop.de.
Appreciate the video. I'll be using this method.
I'm not so sure that a 0.26 or 0.010 inch error is very good if you want to joint anything together.
A 10 thou gap is quite annoyingly visible & considering my calibrated DeWalt table saw, will cut 1.5 thou or 0.0015" or 0.038mm error in 500mm.
I have to say, I'm not positively impressed with your setup.
Hey john are you making the mft tops to sell instead of me going buying the kit etc. Would be interested in one similar to yours. Aiden in ardmore.
what size are you after? I'm flat out in the run up to Christmas.
@@JohnMcGrathManInShed 8x4 sheet set out the same as your own. Going to build a frame on castors to move around the shed. I'm in no rush for it. How much do u think it would cost?
Unless you make all four cuts, I don’t think your results are meaningful because the first edge is your reference measurement edge. Unless the angle between sides #1 and #4 is a perfect 90 degrees, you’re comparing your final cut to an unknown entity.
Nice Video but please don’t talk so fast. Not everyone comes from England or USA😉👍🏻
Neither does John!you can always watch it at 0.75 speed
You might already by aware of them but you might want to look at www.benchdogs.co.uk for their rear fence for a mft. The Woodgrafter channel on youtube has done several reviews of their products.
I have had a look at their stuff I must get some to try it out.
I thought it was a 5 cut procedure
Did you listen at the start?
Matt Estela had the same problem with his Bosch track saw and the dogs (ua-cam.com/video/cfxF-EtfOfA/v-deo.html) unfortunately he only suggested the same solution as you. This is one reason I'm not going to get the bosch track saw.
It fits on all the other brands track's so if it's a major issue I'll just get a Makita track for it which is identical to the festool
Buy Festool or Makita track and you are done. They fit to Bosch system.