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I agree in principle, but heads, banners, capes, some guns, really benefit from it and it costs you nothing, not even time really. Also matters more if you prime white in stead of black. Now painting on a sprue, while it does look cool, has always seemed like madness to me.
Yeah my philosophy is avoid sub-assembly where possible, but sometimes there's places where sub-assembly actually saves you time and effort - and also there's situations where a part IS visible but a lot harder to reach with a brush when other elements of the model are in the way.
Currently building my kommandos kill team, its going to be the first time i ever paint in sub assembly. Its because all the big weapons get un the way if all the small details they have on thier chests, but the weapons get in the way. You can totally see all the details behind the guns tho. Hopefully it goes well. I enjoy layering and building up smooth transitions, so this will help alot. I am very annoyed about it tho.. i hate it tbh
Can solve his complaint with a black prime and then a white for highlights from light. The dark areas stay dark if you keep it angled from a top ish angle, but still whitens all that you really need to see. Best of both worlds.
Especially if you're painting white armor like heresy World Eaters or an apothecary, because then you're definitely wasting time starting with black to work back up to white. My suggestion is base with your favorite off-white paint, recess shade, then dry brush with pure white.
Better to prime dark and do a prime of a white on top from upper angle (adjustable how bright you make it and at what angle to reach as far into crevises as needed to maintain bright and dark areas.) . Best of both worlds. For yellow, I do a black, then a pink primer, and finish with a white over the pink fairly heavily. The black is just a good start, and is good for the places that you will likely miss in less thorough primes to still be dark. The pink is a technique to use a color that will react to a wash/contrast to change its color and make a nice blend into dark with more depth. In this case, the pink turns orange and gradually turns into bright yellow on the white most primed parts using imperial fist contrast. VERY VERY nice looking.
If you are playing 40k it doesn't really matter since you have hundreds of models and people probably wont notice it but if you are playing kill team models with unpainted bits are very noticeable
Back in the ancient days... like 30 years ago... I used to spray prime the whole sprue and then paint the pieces on the sprue. It was a handy way to paint because you could really assembly line the process. The models were so simple the assembly process wasn’t a problem.
Id hate having to keep in mind where the absolute fk each piece is and how it corrolates to which models to know which needs what. Especially trying to paint in light and stuff while imagining how that pieces angle would be on the actual model... They have them all over the place on modern sprues... Less headache not doing that. xD
Oh, that's a part I hadn't even thought of. Losing the parts as you go along because you no longer have the numbers for the sprue unless you assemble them individually.
the way I do it is if it's a push fit model I'll attach the parts to alligator clips to paint them. if it's a kit that needs gluing then I'll assemble the legs and torso and glue them to the base and then I'll drill a small hole into the stub of the arms and the neck of the head and just friction fit a toothpick in there.
When the weapon is across the chest, i don't do a sub assembly to get the back side of the weapon, I do it for better brush access to the chest, which is very visible
I actually thought you were joking, and described the miniature painting community as a service/favor we did for free, because the manufacturers were to lazy to do it themselves. These days they don’t even remove the models from sprues or take care of the mold lines. It’s like they removed an entire factory and put that on the Players instead. Luckily I love painting, it’s time itself, I have a problem with. There just not enough of it. But it seems you’ve found the Portal of Happyhobbywork and I for one, envy you😂
Almost a year of painting and I had been priming in Grey., switched to black and while I much prefer it, the only problem is that my army scheme using contrast paints for a lot of the cloth. Can't find a color match so I''ve been priming black, then painting the cloth parts white before using contrast. :(
I love the slapchop method of priming, black then a spritz of white for lighting, then some dry brushing the details. Helps colors pop on the white parts, and subtly shades the darker sections. Then again I run pretty thinned paint and do like 2-4 layers for stuff. Absolutely does wonders for contrast, as you said.
More people need to hear this. Paint to your comfort. I even do mini commissions, but when I’m painting 20 marines for myself? All dry bush. Every bit. Sure my titan will get 10 hours of sweaty details, but my 100 identical infantry units can have a blue base and light dusting for pretty lighting.
I agree with what you're saying. I'm painting them as tabletop ready to play the game with, I'm not going for a golden demon so I fully assemble then prime and paint.
Eradicators with the hoses is what I am going to be doing my first sub assembly for. The hoses are annoying to paint around, but everything behind is clearly visible. T.T... Blue tac to cover the contact points so I can still go in and plastic glue them together. I basically fully assembled, but kept the annoying parts separately together, only tagging them back on.
Closest I’ve come to pre-assembling painting is alternate bases. Sticky tack to a crummy/old base, paint, glue to real base. I do, however, prime some things white - my ghosts. And then I do several washes.
I'm glad you mentioned when sub assembly is almost required that's when I do. Sub assembly can also be 80% together paint then put the big peices together
80% or however much is precisely what sub assembly is. Putting the big pieces together after doing them separate is sub assembly in a nut shell. Pre assembly might be what you’re comparing, which is like all bits just off the sprue basically.
Even with contrast paints, unless you’re going for a super bright and happy look, never prime white. Black or I actually prefer a dark gray prime, then drybrush white over the top. If you want the model really bright, or are using really thin, light contrasts, then just go a little heavier with the white drybrush.
100% agree with you. I stopped painting literally everything on my models and focused on the focal points-immediately made the models look so much better and took less time.
90% of my models I prime in grey, because it gives me the abiliity to go up and down darkness wise, The odd thing (Some death guard etc) I prime in colours like Green, Bone, etc. Some I do prime black, It all depends on what the main colour of the model is going to be
I've never until just now painted anything in sub assemblies and just now have elected to do so for my Kill team Vespids. I left the wings off and plan to paint the body seperate from the wings as the wings in some of the poses make for real difficulty getting at the majority of the body. Well that is unless you count Magnetized units "Sub assemblies" I have a now defunct Tyranid Kill team which has 3 fully magnetized Tyranid Warriors in it so If you coun't painting magnetized weapon options seperately as sub assemblies then i guess those count. Other than this case I've always been "You can't see it why bother" type of guy.
I like painting Titanicus titans in sub-assemblies (plates), but 1. you only need four-six titans and 2. not sure if it's required, it's just preference. I've seen people paint titans on sprue and that's madness. How can you clear flash and gap fill if you have already painted?
Whether i use contrast paints or regular acrylics, i still use a white zenithal prime over a black primer. The extra step when priming saves me time by achieving 2 things: 1.) the zenithal makes all the details pop so it's easier for me to see and make sense of the miniature's details. And 2.) i don't have to work as hard or twice as long on paint coverage over a fully black primed miniature. All the parts that don't get hit by the white zenithal are shadows, so i don't have to worry about not painting those parts, and all the light parts easily take on paint making it easy to go from one section to another. All that benefit for just swapping to a different colored can after the first when priming. I highly recommend it.
Ive found uses for all sorts of different color primers. Ive used white primer with a thinned down coat of a regular layer color to get almost the same effect as a contrast paint. I also painted 3800 points of sylvaneth in a matter of days by priming them dark green and drybrushing them with green and white and then adding a few other colors to models more complex than a dryad. Black, i use pretty rarely because for drybrushing speed paint techniques it works better in my opinion to have a darker color close to the hue of your primary color When it comes to leaving out small creases like arm pits and such, it just really depends on the standard youre going for. If you want your models to look good at arms length, lined up on the table, go for it. If you want to occasionally pick them up and just give them a close look just for the sake of it, these little flaws and cut corners can dent your enjoyment.
2 місяці тому+1
I prime black on the sprue so I can more easily do it in big batches. After assembly I quickly put on some black brush-on primer. That covers the visible parts where I cut it from the sprue and also the parts that I didn't hit right with the rattle can. The only sub-assembly I do is the head as I out extra effort into it after realising that a half-finished model already can look good if the head looks good.
That still feels like a lot of effort as for plastic models poly cement is a much better bond but you can't really use it on painted bits, plus you're just spraying loads of bits that don't need paint on them and then having to repaint areas you snipped off. Also how do you deal with mold lines?
2 місяці тому
@@sonicwingnut So far I had no problems using plastic glue on primed frames. After assembling and cleaning a model including mold lines if there are some bad ones you maybe need to re-prime 5-6 places more if its a big model. Slapping some primer over these parts is super quick.
I only really play Kill Team so I'm only painting at most a dozen models for a team. I usually do sub assembly painting for a good portion of the figures. Usually arms, heads and extra bits, just so i don't have to worry about hitting another portion of a model while painting something else and needing to do multiple touch ups. More simplistic factions like necrons where i just prime in leadbelcher and use nuln oil, I fully assemble.
Nearly two years since I started painting. Once i figured out the black primer/white drybrush method I've gotten great results and cut my painting time in half.
While I see your point, and it is a very valid point, for me I mainly use subassembly as a way to help my fat fingering. I seem to hit everything with the brush, and getting some parts out of the way makes it just easier for me. (example - Marines, Arms glued to bolter, torso + legs + backpack...I also have the pads detached, since I paint entire batches of them at a time). I don't leave my vehicles open, instead just glue them shut, and paint them. For black my personal recipe is to start with a dark grey (like Eshin) highlight it with lighter grey, and wash it with a black (to really pickout the joints. For Contrast I prefer to use the "Slapchop" method....prime grey, drybrush white, wash with contrast...done (add a few extra highlights for more "Important" models). Just my own method that I follow.
All good points! I never thought of Base coating it with eshin gray, but I agree with you about washing it black. Occasionally my dry brush will be a little too heavy on the gray and I will have to turn it down with a nuln oil.
It gives me a goal when painting bigger models. Alright today's project is on leg. Tomorrow's is the other leg. Then torso etc etc. Having a goal in mind makes me not want to rush to the final result either.
Painting is my favorite part of the hobby. I don’t stop until I’m completely satisfied because I’m going to look at it up close and I do so somewhat often. They’re also on display when not in use. However I don’t expect anyone else to put themselves through that if it isn’t rewarding to them. If I can tell what they are, they’re completed and you didn’t dip it in a can of wall paint and call it good, I couldn’t care less. I will however care alot if you are someone that tosses their models around and slams them into things because you half assed it and don’t care, then go to treat mine the same way. Then it’s a big issue.
I'm glad you found a hobby that you love! I really don't care for the painting that much. For me it's just getting things table top ready so I can play.
Table ready vs. Gallery ready. There is a difference! Last time I painted stuff on the sprue was in the 90's as a teenager. It was a 1/72nd scale model fighter plane, and they were cockpit details. At the time, I had no nippers, no blu-tac, and the sprue was a convenient small parts holder and all my paint was enamel (so, no priming needed). It worked reasonably well, for just those parts. Otherwise, yeah, total waste of time.
I always paint on the sprue. It streamlines the proces and allows for quick batch painting. I really hate those painting snobs who feel that everything has to be box-art perfect and think that torturing yourself with detail is required.
I agree on most of your points, the amount of time people waste on some stuff is mindblowing to me. But that's also because these people are newbies and are trying to soak all the info out there before having done the hours of work, and they want their stuff to be as perfect as possible first time. I don't think priming white is a scam at all. If painting a mini mostly a light color, priming black is much more of a "waste of time". How many coats of yellow or red or orange would I have to paint over black to get a vibrant color? Instead, prime white, basecoat your main color, done. You can reach every spot of the mini because you can do it as rough as you want to and fast too because you are covering the whole minature and do not have to care about other painted details yet.
I enjoy painting immensely, I have worked as a production artist and I absolutely do not paint things that won't be seen. I also don't prime plastic ;P
Your brilliant, I’ve got so hung up about painting over the years and so stressed that it isn’t GW standard you might have actually distressed me about painting thanks
Here is the thing...most of the push-fit space marines (like the ones in the leviathan box set) almost require you to sub assemble...if you don't you are going to get a crappy result....my philosophy is if you can get away with it assemble then paint, but if you can tell that painting your Aquillla is going to look crappy if you have to dodge the bolter to paint it, then sub assemble
I don't paint details that aren't seen. Hell, I don't even paint eyes, as I think they look too cartoony when painted, and tbh, you can't really see eye detail when the mini is on the table. Instead, I use washes to darken the area or paint monster eyes all red.
Sub-assemblies, generally no but there can be good reason. Black > white primer generally, but there are different painting styles, I wouldn’t knock someone for it Painting on the sprue, you’ve been sniffing too much glue. I paint hard to see areas and probably average 4 hours a mini, but that’s not gonna be for everyone.
@@LetsTalkTabletop I am old and just started painting again after a couple of decades off. I always brush primed. I have been nervous to try spray priming. I really need to get with the times and watch a few videos on spray priming. Sounds like a better way to go. Thanks!
Oh man, when I first started out I was really afraid of the spray primers too, but they save an immense amount of time. You should definitely try them! Just don't get too close to the miniature.
Me right before 5:50 "Idk man, I had to Sub assemble the Glutos model it would have been a nightmare." Blew my mind you named the exact Mini I'm working on atm lol.
Airbrushing, magnetizing, zenithal highlighting and sub-assemblies are some of the most overrated modelling and painting methods. When it comes to models, more often than not I will fill in specific areas with green stuff after assembly as I usually can't be bothered with the the sub-assemblies involved, such as the gaps between chests and weapons, or the gaps between legs and cloak on characters. That being said some models do benefit from sub-assemblies, airbrushing and even magnetizing. Not every model. Some models. These could be tanks with turrets, open-topped vehicles such as land speeders and Ork trukks, or maybe a character model such as Marneus Calgar or one you have converted. Re undercoat - I'm a fan of black undercoats. The only time I will use a white undercoat is if the majority of my army's colour scheme is white or bone, such as White Scars or skeletons. (One of my friends is a fan of the 80s and 90s colour schemes so he undercoats all his models white.
I would not say they are overrated. Sure, putting magtets on anything smaller than a redemptor is stupid, but an airbrush and zenithal will save a lot of time even in the short run. Sub assemblies... well, other than heads, vehicles and otherwise really hard spots, it is usually more problem than worth
I use plastic glue. Which would be impossible with this method with out wasting so much time. I actually had a friend who checked if i painted the underside of capes and robes and really called me a bad miniature painter for not doing that. I do not know if this just how things were back then, but i got that a lot back then. Not so much now though.
I paint in sub-assembly and I use plastic cement. just glue the legs and torso together and then glue the figure to the base. paint the arms head and backpack separately and as long as you don't paint the locations where the parts are going to be glued together the plastic cement still works just fine.
I sub-assembled guardsmen once. Never again. At the end of the day, you're just wasting time and paint. At most, do things that hang off the model like capes and shields separately, so you're not painting in small yet very visible places.
Funny how you speak about yellow and black primer in the same video - the under colour of the yellow base coat will MASSIVLY effect the shade of yellow that you get. Great video thou
light primer for contrast for sure. the problem I have is that I don't decide what I'm using at the priming stage, so I just prime everything white. However a quick coat of contrast in the dark tone of the model all over solves that problem. I only do sub assemblies where it's a big or complicated model and I'm worried I wont be able to reach an area, which is very rarely. The only time I think painting on the sprue is worthwhile is when you are making an art piece out of the sprue itself. I've seen these where the parts are beautifully painted then the whole sprue is framed, like a picture. A waste of a model imo but each to their own.
if you leave a model in subassemblies but decide you want to paint the whole model as one piece, you can always put the rest of it together down the line - a lot harder to disassemble a fully assembled model if you later realize that subassemblies would have made more sense
I like it, just painted Dante today, and it's good. My Lamenters are look terrible to me now, they are ugly. I will dissemble, strip away the paint and repaint it again. I want them perfect, i want to like them, they will be saddest yellowest amd the most lamenting out there
I do typically use white primer, and not with contrast paints. But I find a lot of miniatures tend to be on the dark side, and I prefer mine a bit brighter. And yellow and other colors with not so great coverage work so much better and faster over white than over black primer. That said, I'm about to try slapchop and see how I like that. I'm not quite the target audience for this video I think, since I do like painting, and want to learn to paint to better than tabletop standard. I can certainly see the virtue of getting ones' horde units done in a decent time frame, though! I hope to learn to paint faster as well as better, but at least partly so I can paint a mini in the same amount of time for a better result as well as to get horde units on the table in a reasonable timeframe. Thus far I haven't tried painting in subassemblies (this is about to change) and I often end up just about turning myself inside out trying to reach awkward spaces behind shields and the like and end up with splodges of paint in places I don't want them. This is why I'm about to try subassemblies. I've got some cavalry models with shields and cloaks. Getting at all the awkward spots with everything assembled would be a giant pain. And since they're being christmas gifts, I really want them to look good even from very weird angles at 6 inches away.
My dad and brother always did sub-assembly painting but not on the sprue. Sub-assembly painting makes sense for models you will just leave for display like 1/35th scale tanks or what not. but for playing? i don't bother if the detail isnt big enough. also i don't paint eyes unless that model will be perpetually on display.
Agree with you as far as sub assemblies, but you're wrong about white. Why would I waste ages doing layers of semi-opaque colours that are going to still end up looking muddy when I can get vibrant colours to start and then shade in the shadows, easily? Making things darker is much easier than making thing lighter.
I paint in subassemblies because I'm bad at keeping paint off other bits of the model. If I didn't, I'd spend an hour painting a figure and another hour touching up all the mistakes.
Meh I feel like a lot of the fancier modern models tend to have dynamic poses where their shields/weapons/arms/whatever are just far enough away that leaving their armpit black is liable to stand out. There's also a bunch of models that hold a large weapon like a spear in front of themselves in a position where their arms are also in the way, blocking your paintbrush from properly reaching their chest, or at least making it likely you'll accidently paint the wrong thing, but it won't stop you from seeing their chest. Those you probably want to do in a subassembly, alongside the big complicated stuff. But for something like basic space marine, yeah it probably isn't needed.
Might want to grab a dictionary "scam" isn't a word you get to use for everything you are too lazy too. I understand backlog fatigue but you deal with that by learning to buy less.
Recently I realised that by not finishing building a model, due to the intention of either painting in sub assemblies or magnetising them... all it does is delay the completion of a project. It's an issue around the unrealised potential of the model. Because of obsessing over all of that potentiality, the model is never fully built, never painted, and never magnetised. Which also means it never reaches the table, and by extension I never play a game. I'm tired of that.
I actually forgot to mention that in the video, but I go by the 3-foot rule and that's the standard I paint to. So the close-ups of the miniatures in the video are actually really not flattering compared to the way they look on the board. I like high contrast with black shadows and bright highlights so that they really stand out on the board from 3 ft away. I tell new players that if you look at your miniature at arm's length and it looks good, then it looks good.
I'll paint almost every part of the figure. And yes I subscribe to the "I'll know." way of painting but not to extreme levels. Every thing will get a black primer of paint and at least a basecoat. It doesn't take very much extra time and at least I'll know I didn't leave it gray.
I hate painting so I paint only what I can see. I don't fret over mistakes because most anyone will look at my model is from like 1 meter above the table. Yeah, not losing sleep over painting, that's for sure.
I play death guard and sub assembly a lot of my units because of all the complicated details, but I do agree it is almost never necessary... I just enjoy it (and have OCD :p)
I HATE re-painting rims of bases, waste of time and paint. I use Tamiya tape, or have used humble masking tape does the some F`in job. Once base coated just reused the tape. It usually has enough stick to mask 3 bases. Try it.
Personally, i paint some of my miniatures subassembled bc it is easier for me to paint visibile parts od miniature and to screw up already painted parts with my shaky hands.
Honestly, I never paint my miniatures like on the boxes, I find it boring to copy someone else's artwork. For an example, I have a black Templar 1500 point army and my three colors I have are abandoned black, a light Easter like purple and a Viking purple with silver highlights. My minis actually look better than than plain boring black Templar regular color scheme.
"I'm going to show you my miniatures, none of which were subassembled, not one, and they're going to prove my point" *shows miniature that looks like shit* "well i actually subassembled this one :P"
Hmm…. There’s a lot of angles on this issue (no pun intended). I’ve tried lots of methods and they each have their own benefits and drawbacks, as you pointed out. Personally, I don’t like just black in armpits and back of guns, but I enjoy looking at models closer than tabletop level. In the end, Tabletop standard, regardless of details like armpits, is wonderful and so much better than a table of grey plastic or single color primed only models.
@LetsTalkTabletop I know a hard head when I see one, but to anyone else who might see this: posting a video with the intention of getting validation for your position only makes you look incredibly insecure. If you want to really gain anything, look for contrary oppinions and engage with them. If you can't defend your position, have the decency to conced much like op.
His entire channel is him not understanding why people don't do things as mediocre as he does. I can't understand why he gets engagement but then I realised being wrong and abrasive all the time gets people replying to you.
painting on the sprue is idiotic. I endorse sub assembly painting in a limited number of situations only: when the full model is too fragile when fully assembled (Lady Olynder), too large to paint if fully assembled (Yndrasta), and for display models.
You are missing that different people have different areas of joy in the hobby. My brother in law doesnt play, but has bought models just to paint with annoying level of details. When i paint, i do torso and legs before putting on the arms because it is easy and those missed pits bother me. Your take should be "dont fret about painting, and it is not your job to keep up to the jones" but then you get to the continum of unacceptable to perfect starting with unpainted and going to inside of vehicles painted and let people pick where they are for a fun pole. (And if your looking for more engagement ideas you can make it two poles with what is your standard, and what is the standard that bothers you to play against)
The "i would know that its not painted" argument comes from OCD, and no argument will ever change that ;-P
Plus painting before you glue creates poor adhesion
Absolutely
I agree in principle, but heads, banners, capes, some guns, really benefit from it and it costs you nothing, not even time really. Also matters more if you prime white in stead of black. Now painting on a sprue, while it does look cool, has always seemed like madness to me.
People actually do that?
@@clydemarshall8095 it’s not common in my experience, but I’ve known some that do.
Yeah my philosophy is avoid sub-assembly where possible, but sometimes there's places where sub-assembly actually saves you time and effort - and also there's situations where a part IS visible but a lot harder to reach with a brush when other elements of the model are in the way.
@@clydemarshall8095it's a trend that occurs mostly with single sprew planes. They then frame it as a display piece
Only if you are putting together a few models.
If you are jamming out full armies it’s a waste of time
Currently building my kommandos kill team, its going to be the first time i ever paint in sub assembly. Its because all the big weapons get un the way if all the small details they have on thier chests, but the weapons get in the way. You can totally see all the details behind the guns tho. Hopefully it goes well. I enjoy layering and building up smooth transitions, so this will help alot. I am very annoyed about it tho.. i hate it tbh
You can take my white primer from my cold dead hands.
Can solve his complaint with a black prime and then a white for highlights from light. The dark areas stay dark if you keep it angled from a top ish angle, but still whitens all that you really need to see. Best of both worlds.
Im mid so i go grey which is my comfort zone
I very much advocate for basing white if you know you're painting any bright colors.
Especially if you're painting white armor like heresy World Eaters or an apothecary, because then you're definitely wasting time starting with black to work back up to white.
My suggestion is base with your favorite off-white paint, recess shade, then dry brush with pure white.
@shocker1209081 most yellows will only need one thin coat over white. It would drive you crazy to get a smooth amd bright yellow over black
Better to prime dark and do a prime of a white on top from upper angle (adjustable how bright you make it and at what angle to reach as far into crevises as needed to maintain bright and dark areas.) . Best of both worlds.
For yellow, I do a black, then a pink primer, and finish with a white over the pink fairly heavily. The black is just a good start, and is good for the places that you will likely miss in less thorough primes to still be dark. The pink is a technique to use a color that will react to a wash/contrast to change its color and make a nice blend into dark with more depth. In this case, the pink turns orange and gradually turns into bright yellow on the white most primed parts using imperial fist contrast. VERY VERY nice looking.
If you are playing 40k it doesn't really matter since you have hundreds of models and people probably wont notice it but if you are playing kill team models with unpainted bits are very noticeable
Back in the ancient days... like 30 years ago... I used to spray prime the whole sprue and then paint the pieces on the sprue. It was a handy way to paint because you could really assembly line the process. The models were so simple the assembly process wasn’t a problem.
Madness!!! Lol
Id hate having to keep in mind where the absolute fk each piece is and how it corrolates to which models to know which needs what. Especially trying to paint in light and stuff while imagining how that pieces angle would be on the actual model... They have them all over the place on modern sprues... Less headache not doing that. xD
Yeah building them is intuitive on the older sprues. The new ones you have 3 sprues for a pack of 5 guys with a piece on all the sprues haha
This is a refreshing take on hobby painting. I've never sub assembled either, I always worried about losing parts
Oh, that's a part I hadn't even thought of. Losing the parts as you go along because you no longer have the numbers for the sprue unless you assemble them individually.
the way I do it is if it's a push fit model I'll attach the parts to alligator clips to paint them. if it's a kit that needs gluing then I'll assemble the legs and torso and glue them to the base and then I'll drill a small hole into the stub of the arms and the neck of the head and just friction fit a toothpick in there.
When the weapon is across the chest, i don't do a sub assembly to get the back side of the weapon, I do it for better brush access to the chest, which is very visible
I do it sometimes when there is a cape that’s going to be a pain in the butt. Other than that I totally agree.
Hundred percent agree. We're a miniature painting service and we hardly ever need to work with sub assemblies. We see them as a waste of time.
Validation!!!
I actually thought you were joking, and described the miniature painting community as a service/favor we did for free, because the manufacturers were to lazy to do it themselves. These days they don’t even remove the models from sprues or take care of the mold lines. It’s like they removed an entire factory and put that on the Players instead. Luckily I love painting, it’s time itself, I have a problem with. There just not enough of it. But it seems you’ve found the Portal of Happyhobbywork and I for one, envy you😂
Almost a year of painting and I had been priming in Grey., switched to black and while I much prefer it, the only problem is that my army scheme using contrast paints for a lot of the cloth. Can't find a color match so I''ve been priming black, then painting the cloth parts white before using contrast. :(
Oh, now it sounds like you're doing it the hard way. LOL
I love the slapchop method of priming, black then a spritz of white for lighting, then some dry brushing the details. Helps colors pop on the white parts, and subtly shades the darker sections. Then again I run pretty thinned paint and do like 2-4 layers for stuff. Absolutely does wonders for contrast, as you said.
The only sub assembly painting iv done is the push fit models where i can easily pull a part of to paint hard to reach areas then re-ssemble it.
More people need to hear this. Paint to your comfort. I even do mini commissions, but when I’m painting 20 marines for myself? All dry bush. Every bit. Sure my titan will get 10 hours of sweaty details, but my 100 identical infantry units can have a blue base and light dusting for pretty lighting.
Exactly, paint to your own satisfaction!
I agree with what you're saying. I'm painting them as tabletop ready to play the game with, I'm not going for a golden demon so I fully assemble then prime and paint.
If it's hard to paint, chances are it's hard to see. Best painting advice I've ever received.
Couldn't agree more!
Eradicators with the hoses is what I am going to be doing my first sub assembly for. The hoses are annoying to paint around, but everything behind is clearly visible. T.T... Blue tac to cover the contact points so I can still go in and plastic glue them together. I basically fully assembled, but kept the annoying parts separately together, only tagging them back on.
Closest I’ve come to pre-assembling painting is alternate bases. Sticky tack to a crummy/old base, paint, glue to real base. I do, however, prime some things white - my ghosts. And then I do several washes.
Ah, well the ghost thing makes sense.
I'm glad you mentioned when sub assembly is almost required that's when I do. Sub assembly can also be 80% together paint then put the big peices together
80% or however much is precisely what sub assembly is. Putting the big pieces together after doing them separate is sub assembly in a nut shell.
Pre assembly might be what you’re comparing, which is like all bits just off the sprue basically.
Even with contrast paints, unless you’re going for a super bright and happy look, never prime white. Black or I actually prefer a dark gray prime, then drybrush white over the top. If you want the model really bright, or are using really thin, light contrasts, then just go a little heavier with the white drybrush.
100% agree with you. I stopped painting literally everything on my models and focused on the focal points-immediately made the models look so much better and took less time.
90% of my models I prime in grey, because it gives me the abiliity to go up and down darkness wise, The odd thing (Some death guard etc) I prime in colours like Green, Bone, etc.
Some I do prime black, It all depends on what the main colour of the model is going to be
I've never until just now painted anything in sub assemblies and just now have elected to do so for my Kill team Vespids. I left the wings off and plan to paint the body seperate from the wings as the wings in some of the poses make for real difficulty getting at the majority of the body.
Well that is unless you count Magnetized units "Sub assemblies" I have a now defunct Tyranid Kill team which has 3 fully magnetized Tyranid Warriors in it so If you coun't painting magnetized weapon options seperately as sub assemblies then i guess those count.
Other than this case I've always been "You can't see it why bother" type of guy.
I feel like this is also good to hear for people who are just getting into the hobby and feel daunted by the prospect of painting.
I like painting Titanicus titans in sub-assemblies (plates), but 1. you only need four-six titans and 2. not sure if it's required, it's just preference. I've seen people paint titans on sprue and that's madness. How can you clear flash and gap fill if you have already painted?
Whether i use contrast paints or regular acrylics, i still use a white zenithal prime over a black primer.
The extra step when priming saves me time by achieving 2 things:
1.) the zenithal makes all the details pop so it's easier for me to see and make sense of the miniature's details.
And 2.) i don't have to work as hard or twice as long on paint coverage over a fully black primed miniature.
All the parts that don't get hit by the white zenithal are shadows, so i don't have to worry about not painting those parts, and all the light parts easily take on paint making it easy to go from one section to another. All that benefit for just swapping to a different colored can after the first when priming. I highly recommend it.
Ive found uses for all sorts of different color primers. Ive used white primer with a thinned down coat of a regular layer color to get almost the same effect as a contrast paint. I also painted 3800 points of sylvaneth in a matter of days by priming them dark green and drybrushing them with green and white and then adding a few other colors to models more complex than a dryad. Black, i use pretty rarely because for drybrushing speed paint techniques it works better in my opinion to have a darker color close to the hue of your primary color
When it comes to leaving out small creases like arm pits and such, it just really depends on the standard youre going for. If you want your models to look good at arms length, lined up on the table, go for it. If you want to occasionally pick them up and just give them a close look just for the sake of it, these little flaws and cut corners can dent your enjoyment.
I prime black on the sprue so I can more easily do it in big batches. After assembly I quickly put on some black brush-on primer. That covers the visible parts where I cut it from the sprue and also the parts that I didn't hit right with the rattle can.
The only sub-assembly I do is the head as I out extra effort into it after realising that a half-finished model already can look good if the head looks good.
That still feels like a lot of effort as for plastic models poly cement is a much better bond but you can't really use it on painted bits, plus you're just spraying loads of bits that don't need paint on them and then having to repaint areas you snipped off.
Also how do you deal with mold lines?
@@sonicwingnut So far I had no problems using plastic glue on primed frames. After assembling and cleaning a model including mold lines if there are some bad ones you maybe need to re-prime 5-6 places more if its a big model. Slapping some primer over these parts is super quick.
I only really play Kill Team so I'm only painting at most a dozen models for a team. I usually do sub assembly painting for a good portion of the figures. Usually arms, heads and extra bits, just so i don't have to worry about hitting another portion of a model while painting something else and needing to do multiple touch ups. More simplistic factions like necrons where i just prime in leadbelcher and use nuln oil, I fully assemble.
Nearly two years since I started painting. Once i figured out the black primer/white drybrush method I've gotten great results and cut my painting time in half.
I like to paint Imperial Fists. Priming white is a necessity. For everything else I have grey primer.
While I see your point, and it is a very valid point, for me I mainly use subassembly as a way to help my fat fingering. I seem to hit everything with the brush, and getting some parts out of the way makes it just easier for me. (example - Marines, Arms glued to bolter, torso + legs + backpack...I also have the pads detached, since I paint entire batches of them at a time).
I don't leave my vehicles open, instead just glue them shut, and paint them.
For black my personal recipe is to start with a dark grey (like Eshin) highlight it with lighter grey, and wash it with a black (to really pickout the joints.
For Contrast I prefer to use the "Slapchop" method....prime grey, drybrush white, wash with contrast...done (add a few extra highlights for more "Important" models).
Just my own method that I follow.
All good points! I never thought of Base coating it with eshin gray, but I agree with you about washing it black. Occasionally my dry brush will be a little too heavy on the gray and I will have to turn it down with a nuln oil.
It gives me a goal when painting bigger models. Alright today's project is on leg. Tomorrow's is the other leg. Then torso etc etc. Having a goal in mind makes me not want to rush to the final result either.
Painting is my favorite part of the hobby. I don’t stop until I’m completely satisfied because I’m going to look at it up close and I do so somewhat often. They’re also on display when not in use.
However I don’t expect anyone else to put themselves through that if it isn’t rewarding to them. If I can tell what they are, they’re completed and you didn’t dip it in a can of wall paint and call it good, I couldn’t care less.
I will however care alot if you are someone that tosses their models around and slams them into things because you half assed it and don’t care, then go to treat mine the same way. Then it’s a big issue.
I'm glad you found a hobby that you love! I really don't care for the painting that much. For me it's just getting things table top ready so I can play.
Table ready vs. Gallery ready. There is a difference! Last time I painted stuff on the sprue was in the 90's as a teenager. It was a 1/72nd scale model fighter plane, and they were cockpit details. At the time, I had no nippers, no blu-tac, and the sprue was a convenient small parts holder and all my paint was enamel (so, no priming needed). It worked reasonably well, for just those parts. Otherwise, yeah, total waste of time.
I always paint on the sprue. It streamlines the proces and allows for quick batch painting. I really hate those painting snobs who feel that everything has to be box-art perfect and think that torturing yourself with detail is required.
Madness! 😁
@@LetsTalkTabletop quick, efficient and gets good results. Chill out. 😁
I agree on most of your points, the amount of time people waste on some stuff is mindblowing to me. But that's also because these people are newbies and are trying to soak all the info out there before having done the hours of work, and they want their stuff to be as perfect as possible first time.
I don't think priming white is a scam at all. If painting a mini mostly a light color, priming black is much more of a "waste of time". How many coats of yellow or red or orange would I have to paint over black to get a vibrant color? Instead, prime white, basecoat your main color, done. You can reach every spot of the mini because you can do it as rough as you want to and fast too because you are covering the whole minature and do not have to care about other painted details yet.
Playing with little plastic toy soldiers is also a waste of time, so stop yapping.
I enjoy painting immensely, I have worked as a production artist and I absolutely do not paint things that won't be seen. I also don't prime plastic ;P
Your brilliant, I’ve got so hung up about painting over the years and so stressed that it isn’t GW standard you might have actually distressed me about painting thanks
Glad I could help!
Here is the thing...most of the push-fit space marines (like the ones in the leviathan box set) almost require you to sub assemble...if you don't you are going to get a crappy result....my philosophy is if you can get away with it assemble then paint, but if you can tell that painting your Aquillla is going to look crappy if you have to dodge the bolter to paint it, then sub assemble
I don't paint details that aren't seen. Hell, I don't even paint eyes, as I think they look too cartoony when painted, and tbh, you can't really see eye detail when the mini is on the table. Instead, I use washes to darken the area or paint monster eyes all red.
100% agree
"Sub-Assembly Painting is a Waste of Time" - and then, suddenly, out of nowhere...wild Typhus appears with his flies at the back xD
Sub-assemblies, generally no but there can be good reason.
Black > white primer generally, but there are different painting styles, I wouldn’t knock someone for it
Painting on the sprue, you’ve been sniffing too much glue.
I paint hard to see areas and probably average 4 hours a mini, but that’s not gonna be for everyone.
I will sometimes black prime behind guns and arms before assembly.
Do you spray prime your models? From my experience, you can usually get all those recesses with a spray paint can.
@@LetsTalkTabletop I am old and just started painting again after a couple of decades off. I always brush primed. I have been nervous to try spray priming. I really need to get with the times and watch a few videos on spray priming. Sounds like a better way to go. Thanks!
Oh man, when I first started out I was really afraid of the spray primers too, but they save an immense amount of time. You should definitely try them! Just don't get too close to the miniature.
Me right before 5:50 "Idk man, I had to Sub assemble the Glutos model it would have been a nightmare." Blew my mind you named the exact Mini I'm working on atm lol.
😄😄😄. I'm usually fine with reaching in and painting stuff in the recesses but that model was just too deep to reach the inner stuff well
Is this dude actually wearing a bluetooth earpiece? 😂😂 jesus christ
Guilty as charged brother. 😄
Airbrushing, magnetizing, zenithal highlighting and sub-assemblies are some of the most overrated modelling and painting methods.
When it comes to models, more often than not I will fill in specific areas with green stuff after assembly as I usually can't be bothered with the the sub-assemblies involved, such as the gaps between chests and weapons, or the gaps between legs and cloak on characters.
That being said some models do benefit from sub-assemblies, airbrushing and even magnetizing. Not every model. Some models. These could be tanks with turrets, open-topped vehicles such as land speeders and Ork trukks, or maybe a character model such as Marneus Calgar or one you have converted.
Re undercoat - I'm a fan of black undercoats. The only time I will use a white undercoat is if the majority of my army's colour scheme is white or bone, such as White Scars or skeletons. (One of my friends is a fan of the 80s and 90s colour schemes so he undercoats all his models white.
I would not say they are overrated. Sure, putting magtets on anything smaller than a redemptor is stupid, but an airbrush and zenithal will save a lot of time even in the short run. Sub assemblies... well, other than heads, vehicles and otherwise really hard spots, it is usually more problem than worth
I spure painted a kill team 2018 tau force now I still have half primed spures that are not finished because it was more work than I wanted
I use plastic glue. Which would be impossible with this method with out wasting so much time.
I actually had a friend who checked if i painted the underside of capes and robes and really called me a bad miniature painter for not doing that. I do not know if this just how things were back then, but i got that a lot back then. Not so much now though.
Good grief that person sounds miserable to be around
I paint in sub-assembly and I use plastic cement. just glue the legs and torso together and then glue the figure to the base. paint the arms head and backpack separately and as long as you don't paint the locations where the parts are going to be glued together the plastic cement still works just fine.
I sub-assembled guardsmen once. Never again. At the end of the day, you're just wasting time and paint. At most, do things that hang off the model like capes and shields separately, so you're not painting in small yet very visible places.
Funny how you speak about yellow and black primer in the same video - the under colour of the yellow base coat will MASSIVLY effect the shade of yellow that you get. Great video thou
light primer for contrast for sure. the problem I have is that I don't decide what I'm using at the priming stage, so I just prime everything white.
However a quick coat of contrast in the dark tone of the model all over solves that problem.
I only do sub assemblies where it's a big or complicated model and I'm worried I wont be able to reach an area, which is very rarely.
The only time I think painting on the sprue is worthwhile is when you are making an art piece out of the sprue itself. I've seen these where the parts are beautifully painted then the whole sprue is framed, like a picture. A waste of a model imo but each to their own.
if you leave a model in subassemblies but decide you want to paint the whole model as one piece, you can always put the rest of it together down the line - a lot harder to disassemble a fully assembled model if you later realize that subassemblies would have made more sense
I like it, just painted Dante today, and it's good. My Lamenters are look terrible to me now, they are ugly. I will dissemble, strip away the paint and repaint it again. I want them perfect, i want to like them, they will be saddest yellowest amd the most lamenting out there
I do typically use white primer, and not with contrast paints. But I find a lot of miniatures tend to be on the dark side, and I prefer mine a bit brighter. And yellow and other colors with not so great coverage work so much better and faster over white than over black primer. That said, I'm about to try slapchop and see how I like that.
I'm not quite the target audience for this video I think, since I do like painting, and want to learn to paint to better than tabletop standard. I can certainly see the virtue of getting ones' horde units done in a decent time frame, though! I hope to learn to paint faster as well as better, but at least partly so I can paint a mini in the same amount of time for a better result as well as to get horde units on the table in a reasonable timeframe.
Thus far I haven't tried painting in subassemblies (this is about to change) and I often end up just about turning myself inside out trying to reach awkward spaces behind shields and the like and end up with splodges of paint in places I don't want them. This is why I'm about to try subassemblies. I've got some cavalry models with shields and cloaks. Getting at all the awkward spots with everything assembled would be a giant pain. And since they're being christmas gifts, I really want them to look good even from very weird angles at 6 inches away.
My dad and brother always did sub-assembly painting but not on the sprue. Sub-assembly painting makes sense for models you will just leave for display like 1/35th scale tanks or what not. but for playing? i don't bother if the detail isnt big enough. also i don't paint eyes unless that model will be perpetually on display.
Totally true.
haha hell yeah never that. maybe for some peeps who just love that aspect
Agree with you as far as sub assemblies, but you're wrong about white. Why would I waste ages doing layers of semi-opaque colours that are going to still end up looking muddy when I can get vibrant colours to start and then shade in the shadows, easily? Making things darker is much easier than making thing lighter.
I'm... Wr- ...wro-. wrong? Never heard of it. What language is it? 😁
I paint in subassemblies because I'm bad at keeping paint off other bits of the model. If I didn't, I'd spend an hour painting a figure and another hour touching up all the mistakes.
If I can’t squeeze my brush in there, people won’t squeeze their eyes in there.
Yes!!!
Meh I feel like a lot of the fancier modern models tend to have dynamic poses where their shields/weapons/arms/whatever are just far enough away that leaving their armpit black is liable to stand out. There's also a bunch of models that hold a large weapon like a spear in front of themselves in a position where their arms are also in the way, blocking your paintbrush from properly reaching their chest, or at least making it likely you'll accidently paint the wrong thing, but it won't stop you from seeing their chest.
Those you probably want to do in a subassembly, alongside the big complicated stuff.
But for something like basic space marine, yeah it probably isn't needed.
Might want to grab a dictionary "scam" isn't a word you get to use for everything you are too lazy too. I understand backlog fatigue but you deal with that by learning to buy less.
This comment is a scam. 😘
Recently I realised that by not finishing building a model, due to the intention of either painting in sub assemblies or magnetising them... all it does is delay the completion of a project. It's an issue around the unrealised potential of the model. Because of obsessing over all of that potentiality, the model is never fully built, never painted, and never magnetised. Which also means it never reaches the table, and by extension I never play a game. I'm tired of that.
Unpainted areas that show the flat black primer looks sloppy and unfinished. And EVERYONE notices that shit.
I agree, if done poorly. Ideally the black primer should only be within the recesses of edges to provide shadow. I dry brush so it's not an issue.
I think we were separated at birth!! I one thousand percent agree with this sub assembly crap.
It's a great feeling when your opinion resonates with people! Thanks for watching and thanks for taking the time to comment!
Only miniatures I've painted on the sprue were legions imperialis infantry
Personally I enjoy subassembly painting, but I agree with you on painting on sprue. The mold lines would kill me. X'D
People who paint the soles of their miniatures' shoes also wallpaper the wall behind the closet...😂
people forget that on the table it's at least 2 to 3 feet away from your eyes can't see it, can't notice it
I actually forgot to mention that in the video, but I go by the 3-foot rule and that's the standard I paint to. So the close-ups of the miniatures in the video are actually really not flattering compared to the way they look on the board. I like high contrast with black shadows and bright highlights so that they really stand out on the board from 3 ft away. I tell new players that if you look at your miniature at arm's length and it looks good, then it looks good.
I've painted on the true, but I only base coat everything. Ya know, block everything in.
It worked out fine
I prime black in subs to make sure it’s all black. Then assemble before zenithal
I'll paint almost every part of the figure. And yes I subscribe to the "I'll know." way of painting but not to extreme levels. Every thing will get a black primer of paint and at least a basecoat. It doesn't take very much extra time and at least I'll know I didn't leave it gray.
I hate painting so I paint only what I can see. I don't fret over mistakes because most anyone will look at my model is from like 1 meter above the table. Yeah, not losing sleep over painting, that's for sure.
Over a decade and never sub assembled. Never will.
I play death guard and sub assembly a lot of my units because of all the complicated details, but I do agree it is almost never necessary... I just enjoy it (and have OCD :p)
100% agree on everything you say.
consider this, its my mini and the longer i take painting it the less money i spend a month on the hobby
I HATE re-painting rims of bases, waste of time and paint. I use Tamiya tape, or have used humble masking tape does the some F`in job. Once base coated just reused the tape. It usually has enough stick to mask 3 bases. Try it.
I think your Glutose looks lovely ;)
Hey, thanks!
Personally, i paint some of my miniatures subassembled bc it is easier for me to paint visibile parts od miniature and to screw up already painted parts with my shaky hands.
Build , spray , add detail
painting underneath boots is extremely unfathomably based
Man I wish I could have so little pride in my work that I could justify not painting my own models to a high standard or want to develop a skill
I believe in you!
Subassembly makes it easier to basecoat with airbrush
Honestly, I never paint my miniatures like on the boxes, I find it boring to copy someone else's artwork. For an example, I have a black Templar 1500 point army and my three colors I have are abandoned black, a light Easter like purple and a Viking purple with silver highlights. My minis actually look better than than plain boring black Templar regular color scheme.
Sub-Assembly is killing all the fun of painting.
"I'm going to show you my miniatures, none of which were subassembled, not one, and they're going to prove my point"
*shows miniature that looks like shit*
"well i actually subassembled this one :P"
Hmm…. There’s a lot of angles on this issue (no pun intended). I’ve tried lots of methods and they each have their own benefits and drawbacks, as you pointed out. Personally, I don’t like just black in armpits and back of guns, but I enjoy looking at models closer than tabletop level.
In the end, Tabletop standard, regardless of details like armpits, is wonderful and so much better than a table of grey plastic or single color primed only models.
Yeah I always found sub assembly a total waste of time. You have to ask yourself? Am I painting an army? Or am I painting for a competition?
My guy just redefined "scam" to "thing I don't like because I enjoy painting to a tabletop standard". Okay buddy.
😊
The none-argument emoji of concession.
Lol. Yeah you got me. Now you get one too. 😲
@LetsTalkTabletop
I know a hard head when I see one, but to anyone else who might see this: posting a video with the intention of getting validation for your position only makes you look incredibly insecure. If you want to really gain anything, look for contrary oppinions and engage with them. If you can't defend your position, have the decency to conced much like op.
His entire channel is him not understanding why people don't do things as mediocre as he does. I can't understand why he gets engagement but then I realised being wrong and abrasive all the time gets people replying to you.
Someone with the courage to say what all of us fear to think. Getting a refund on all that 4mil wire as I type.
What do you use 4 mil wire for?
The sub assemblies. Little hole and some wire, stick it in a cork, batta boom. Let’s you paint around the cracks.
painting on the sprue is idiotic. I endorse sub assembly painting in a limited number of situations only: when the full model is too fragile when fully assembled (Lady Olynder), too large to paint if fully assembled (Yndrasta), and for display models.
Do zenithal priming. It's a huge time saver.
I think the biggest scam is showing you all the techniques that will allow you to have minis that look like they were professionally painted.
I fully assemble the models and then paint, but screw not painting my whole model. How dare you suggest otherwise!
I agree but imo black primed models end up to dark for me.
You are missing that different people have different areas of joy in the hobby.
My brother in law doesnt play, but has bought models just to paint with annoying level of details.
When i paint, i do torso and legs before putting on the arms because it is easy and those missed pits bother me.
Your take should be "dont fret about painting, and it is not your job to keep up to the jones" but then you get to the continum of unacceptable to perfect starting with unpainted and going to inside of vehicles painted and let people pick where they are for a fun pole. (And if your looking for more engagement ideas you can make it two poles with what is your standard, and what is the standard that bothers you to play against)