IT BEGINS! The Car Market CRASH Of 2024 | MASSIVE PRICE DROPS
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- Опубліковано 29 бер 2024
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Ray and Zach get their hands on some EXCLUSIVE new info (straight off the presses), and it's a doozy! Most automakers today have decreased average transaction prices (ATPs), some by over 10% in a few months. Could there be a market reset on the horizon, or has it already begun? - Розваги
when the prices were artificially up by 25%, then down 8% is NOTHING
Yep, straight out of the Democrat playbook.
While half the jobs in America were lost due mostly to insane Democrat C19 policies, they brag about "adding" a few hundred thousand jobs in recent months. So, in reality, US unemployment is REMAINS abysmal compared to the Trump administration. _SAVE AMERICA ~ VOTE REPUBLICAN_
Exactly
Yes and some were marked up 40 %
It’s just the start. Prices aren’t going to drastically drop over night.
I mean, I wouldn’t say it’s nothing. We’re talking 90 days here.
12% off a price that raised 50% hard pass
Facts
Depends on what you buy. For example, I just picked up a Civic yesterday for just under 12% off. Since 2018 msrp has gone up 17%. Nowhere near 50%. The problem with people is they bought into too large of vehicle with every single option. Reviewers literally complain ventilated seats not being in Corolla’s. Why is that even a complaint for that segment?
Thats called inflation and new features, you ain't ever going back to pre covid prices
@gamingwitharlen2267 false. It's called crashing the market by NOT buying, and I 100% guarantee you... it happens. Much like shorting a stock but... people keep buying and complaining about high prices. Nobody has ever said Americans are educated smart shoppers.
Yeah, still 38% too high
Keep holding out people. These drops aren’t enough.
"Thousands below market value"... yea, whose market value? Small discounts on way overpriced vehicles doesn't fix the underlying issue.
Agreed!$
Things are worth whatever price someone will pay. As long as people are buying, that's the market price.
Don't buy, and the market price will come down.
Exactly! Who determined that value? Because the dealers and OEM's inflated pricing and called that "market."
I used to trust this channel but its starting to resemble clown show.
@@carlhammill5774 And then you attack the people working for your best interest in typical boomer fashion
Hold the line! Repair what you have and don't buy anything, even used. Nothing will change as long as we keep buying.
Yep. Be smart people!!
lol #holdgamestop to #nobuycar
Exactly!!
@@robertulrich3964 the major difference is that a significant amount of car buyers will be removed from the market by no choice of their own. Either they have leveraged themselves into oblivion or the car prices have just left them behind.
Agree
Cars are still at least 33% overpriced. Average cost of a new car is $47,000. Pure insanity
You could buy a condo for that price in 2014 where I'm from 😂 crazy that cars cost that much now
30% off current MSRP, gets me interested, 40% gets me to your dealer... but 50% off.... gets me to buy. Until then, i am ok with my truck, car and motorcycle... titles in hand with zero debt. They hate us cause they aint us. Debt? Whats that?
HOLD THE LINE!
"No. I'm not interested in trading my truck. If I were, fat chance I'd bring it in here to let you make money off of it. I'd sell it before I got here."
No debt guy, I like it.
My two cars have been paid for years and I am not about to go and get gouged! Haven’t had a car payment in six years! I keep a long time and maintain them meticulously.
@@MrLouislaf Probably obvious to you, but make sure you make a "payment" to yourself, then you can buy your next car cash. Don't care what they say, cash is still king.
I'm getting a moped for future commutes.
Prices have changed guys, just not enough. I'm in the market for a truck. Went to ram because they have the highest discounts. Unfortunately not enough so we didn't make a deal. They went from $62k to $49k. A crew cab 1500 ram V6 should not be no more than $35k. I will continue waiting. Time for manufacturers to suffer for taking advantage of gullible people.
Ram dealers in Texas are wayyyyy out of touch. Every one of them are playing bait & switch with pricing. They advertise low prices then hit you with thousands in dealer adds that are "already on the truck." You tell them that's a deal breaker and they let you walk off the lot every time (in my experience). Sorry, not sorry...I just bought a nice new Silverado a few days ago. Got a really nice discount, high trade allowance, dealer waived their adds with no argument, and 1.9% financing. Congrats Ram! You are driving your customers in to the arms of your competitors. Unreal...
@@SoopaShocka Yeah too bad for Ram. Congrats on your new Silverado those trucks are gorgeous.
I have experienced the exact same thing in Phoenix. I will just keep waiting until they are desperate enough to sell at the price I want. Sales guys go silent when you ask them how much the $88k truck will be worth after I drive it off the lot. Ram 2500 Laramie with 1500 miles is worth $51k, I show them the offer from Carvana and they don’t know what to say.
Was insane that I now consider the prices in 2021 to be cheap for ram. Used to be able to get a 2wd bighorn with the night package and v8 for 43k, now you are looking at 45-50k just for the v6.
@@brooksravenscroft8304 I bet. Massive depreciation in the first 5 years. I'm here in Phoenix as well. I know every vehicle depreciates but those ram trucks will hurt the pocket book bad.
In NJ a 2024 Nissan Frontier Pro-4X, loaded ith all options is $50K+ out the door. I told him "No, your prices are way too high, I'll see you in 6 months"
I would probably get one if it was around 30k. I like the powertrain and think its a solid truck but I'm not paying that much. I figure I'll wait for everything to crash and will pick up a used one few years from now.
@jonsaircond8520 I drive a 2021 Pro-4X loaded all options etc. No payments & the dealership cones to me and says "we can't find a payoff on that truck". Then I tell them "there is none". Then they look at me like dang we just lost a large part of your negotiating power since that note isn't hanging over me head. 😄
You'll see them in 6 months and nothing will have changed.
I’m looking at the same exact truck. Sellers need to come back to reality and get their prices down. The truck is a great deal between $30k-$35 fully loaded. I’m holding out for a few more months. Something has to give
Minnesota is too high as well.
Ray nailed it with the interest rates. A 10% decrease doesn't offset the ludicrous interest rates. A credit score of over 800 gets me an astonishingly high 8% interest rate. This cannot continue. The average monthly payment has broken $700/mo in the US for auto. This is insanity.
Same situation here.
Bought a 2018 Fusion at 0%.
Wife and I both 800+ FICO.
Her car is paid off only 123k miles. Serviced by the book or better at a dealer.
Keeping it to 200k miles or more.
This is where (due to your 800+ FICO score) the vehicle mfr. should step in with 0% to 2.9% APR financing offers.
Actually for us old folks 7-8% interest was normal back in the 70s. It is survivable. Plan and pay cash was the mantra. Worked pretty well.
Dealers and manufacturers have punished car buyers for the past 3 years and now the tables have turned. I sincerely hope buyers continue to hold off on purchases forcing dealers and manufacturers to compete ruthlessly to provide exceptional value to their customers in order to survive.
Say that again!🎉
Why should they survive as a business? They don't deserve it.
I want them to lose trillions and not get no bail out either.
HOLD!!!
I will only buy if they drop prices by 75%
The majority of new cars that's been sitting nearly a year on stealerships rot lot should be automatically depreciating well below MSRP.
Dodge gave 15% off and cleared out the 2023’s. Amazing how that works.
$10,000 off a price inflated by $40,000 is not a deal.
It should be free right?
@@BorderTurretslmao 😂 people forget that our dollar is a shit coin that keeps getting inflated
@@spikeysol Yeah. I agree the cars are overpriced to high hell to include from Toyota and Subaru and inflation means we will never get to correct to pre pandemic. However, I dont expect a car that MSRPs at 30k to suddenly crater to 15k MSRP.
Then these jerks are flaming this channel even though the average transaction price is going down aggressively. Its filled with"WHAHHHHH I WANT 95% OFF!"
@@spikeysolInflation at its worst was only at 7%, these cars went up in price by over 70% on average.
Don't blame inflation.
@@BorderTurretsFree from mark-ups and unwanted add-ons. Yeah.
Be patient everyone….the declines have just started. With employee layoffs and curtailed production and dealers refusing additional inventory, it can only go lower.
One dealer in Henderson Nevada shows over 300 new 2023 vehicles in stock! They aren't selling anything!
Which dealership?
@@Rocnation51 Can't say the name but it's in Valley Auto Mall.
Still WAY too expensive!
Good to see the dealers taking a hit. These are the same guys who wanted premium above-sticker prices from us for the honor of buying a car from them.
Nobody’s taking a hit lol. Maybe the used car market, but new dealers are fine, so long as you aren’t Dodge, because it’s a sh*t brand
I agree. Everything from Stellantis is pretty much crap. Vauxhall and Opel?!?! Seriously? lol I did not even think they were made anymore.
It was f#$% the customer for almost 5 years, now its f@#$ them.
Dodge prices down 12 precent? I would not look at a dodge if the price dropped 75 percent.
Is Dodge now a part of Stellantis? If so, Lee Iacocca and Ricardo Montalban must be rolling over.
As a business, we had less maintenance cost with the Dodge over Ford and Chevy trucks in our fleet of 32 trucks.
They could NOT give me a Dodge product.
The way I laughed at this comment. So true!
@@LifeUser Your claim is completely anecdotal. Stellantis is legendary for its “build quality.” 😂😂😂 Ford leads in recalls, followed by GM and Dodge.
Until interest rates go down the car market is screwed just like the economy!
Y’all need to tell the truth😂
Wait, are you saying the 68,500 XLT 23 F150 is now 63,750?!?!?!!? That's crazy!!!!!!
They can take another $10k off that.
@@shikcheese3234 More like 30k to make even viable.
The last guy is spot on. When people are unsure of the economy and cars went up 50 percent in a short time going down even 25 percent don’t mean jack
40% discount off MSRP is when I will start to get interested.
I’ll tell you who’s happy… Vehicle service shops are keeping the old steel on the road and making a killing at it. I’ll put $5,000 in my older paid off vehicle and get new everything and be very happy
That’s what we’re doing with our ‘04 Ford 250 Super Duty. It’s a regular cab with a 8ft bed, manual windows, no power locks, vinyl floors. It may tick, have a hole in the manifold, a good amount of rust underneath due to living in Wisconsin, peppered with hail dents, and come back w/ 5 OBD2 codes, but we couldn’t find anything better in our area to replace it with for under $15k. It’s a farm/plow truck. We ended up deciding that we’ll just fix it up at some point
We just bought today a 2024 Subaru ascent advertised for $47,868 and we were out the door with all fees/tax at $41,535 thanks to all we have learned from you guys! Thank you!
@TracisGarden- What's sad, is that you think $ 41,535. is a good deal.The base Ascent 7 passenger is $ 34, 395. Doesn't that seem like a lot of money to you ?
@@S.L.S-407 I didn’t buy a base model
@@TracisGarden -I was not implying that you did. I'm just trying to point out that we have gotten so used to being ripped off with excessive prices that we no longer think a $40,000. SUB COMPACT is a lot to spend money on. Which means $47,000 for a mid sized seems as acceptable. : )
Listen up, Ray - lowering from stupidly high prices is still unimpressive
They need to lower another 25% to really begin to get back onto long term trends (settting aside the fluke of recent years)
That isn't a fall. I was looking to buy a new Chevy truck in late 2019. I could have got a base Custom for 19K. Now the same truck is 34K to 36K. When we get back to reasonable price I will get back in the market. Let em go to hell or out of business.
I keep on hearing and reading about massive car price drops....but I never see it!....and as long as people keep buying, prices will never go down.
The prices $ cannot decline fast enough.
Lower average transaction price does not mean prices are coming down. It means that consumers are choosing lower spec vehicles. Most likely because of higher interest rates and the desire to make that payment number work.
Came here to say the same thing. If Chevy is selling more small SUVs and 4 DR passenger cars that that will bring average transaction price down while the Silverado HDs might still be sky-high. We need to see individual model prices.
Shhh, critical thinking skills aren't appreciated in the world anymore
Prices are not really dropping because Dealers paid too much on invoice price from manufacturer.
Stellantis needs to knock off about 40% to start to move the inventory.
I think I've seen a version of this title about 20 times in the last year. This isn't going to happen Car dealers have the backing of the government and know they will never fail. High prices are here to stay just like with everything in the economy right now.
This goes to show Dopes are still buying WAY overpriced cars/trucks. Prices need to go down about another 30% more!!!
Based on? Listen, I think consumers need to start getting real with themselves too. Most of the problem is greed. But prices are only coming down so much. They need to cover actual inflation costs, not to mention the power of the dollar goes down every-time the government pumps more money out. But consumers need to stop demanding every single feature in cars that’s driving prices up. So many reviewers are getting into ENTRY level cars and looking for heated seats, ventilated seats, heated steering wheel, on and on and on. It’s only making vehicles expensive.
@@Michael-ur5qb I almost agree with you BUT prior to pandemic I had option for basic work truck that I could afford to buy to grow my business now I can’t so I don’t. Numbers don’t work. Which also translates to one less employee that would contribute to local community and pay taxes to those he doesn’t know. Also, wife drives a car with options. 3 years later exact same car (same options) 38% more. I’m not demanding more for less corporations supported by our now commander in chief are taking a lot more for bigger profits for less quality…
If one needs to pay $10 for a burger one is not likely to be in the market for a $100,000 new pickup truck.
Yall been saying “IT BEGINS”, “CAR CRASH IS NOW”, or “THIS IS IT” for like 3 years now.
Yet, nothing has changed. Annoying AF
I completely agree. Click bait.
The sky is falling!!!!
these 2 clowns are worthless.
even subarus can be had for 5-10% below msrp right now, which is a far cry from how things were 1-3 years ago
That part… click bait
Guys! Thanks for all the great informative info over the last few years. This has become one of my favorite channels and look forward to the daily update. Keep them coming!! FYI still seeing massive markups at my local Corvette dealer in Socal.
The drops are not enough when set against the inflated MSRPs of the last two years. Add in high interest rates and high insurance rates, and new cars remain unaffordable.
Have you heard of the Fisker? They are an EV company that is in financial trouble. They have a vehicle called the Ocean that had an MSRP of $61,499 two weeks ago and now it is $37,499. A 40% drop in value in just two weeks.😮
A brand-new F250 XL with a 6.8 gas engine is still going for $55,000+ here in Georgia… no noticeable price drop here. Not on that model anyway. I asked if they were selling any lightnings and he said hell no haha.
In Australia that car ranges from $ 175,000 to $220,000 AUD
Just help my son get his 1st car from an Independent used car dealer. Although used vehicles have gone up you can still haggle the price. The indy dealer said many potential buyers can't qualify even with excellent credit because of the high car loan interest rates and buyers can't come up with a bigger downpayment to get their monthly payments more affordable. New car dealerships can keep ALL their now 'year old new vehicles' and go broke before I buy a new car ever again.
Get pre-approved at a local bank or credit union, their loan rates are way better than dealership. I am co-sign my daughter's loan for 7.24 percent, dealership offered me 10.99 but magically was able to match my banks loan terms 😮
You guys have been saying prices are dropping for months and months now, and they ARE NOT coming down. They are either staying steady or up slightly. I check them weekly.
Car prices went up 30% for example, so to discount it 10% is still not enough. So you are right prices have come down, but not to make up the amount of increase.
Said it before and I'll say it again: I agree with Ray's opinion that prices will NEVER go back to 2019 levels. If anyone is crossing their fingers just waiting for those kinds of discounts........not gonna happen.
@@NVRAMboi not sure I agree. In the US market the consumer sets the price. How long can dealers sit with new 2023 vehicles on their lot while the 2024s continue to come in. I mean VW just had some good deals with very low interest rates, like 2% on new models. So if the manufacturers can't reduce the price of the vehicle they will reduce it on the loan. Either way the TCO drops dramatically. I mean 2% vs 4 or 6% is quite a drop. But again if people don't come and buy lot rot will become a large issue. I stopped leasing so the car world lost me from being one of those replace a vehicle every 2 or 3 years. And I am not alone. The buyers are speaking....drop the prices.
You would not know that if you went to a local Dodge dealership in the last 30 days, prices are still stupid high.
I have been holding off buying a new vehicle for over a year. I am very specific on what I am looking for. What I am seeing in Florida is that the dealers are starting to discount the MSRP BUT they are still clinging to their absurd add-ons and crazy "doc fees". I will know they are serious when the add-on's go away, the "doc fees" become reasonable, AND they offer a modest discount on MSRP.
Mobile, Andalusia, Dothan, AL. Bainbridge, Albany, Valdosta, Waycross, GA....etc etc.
"It's 106 miles to Tallahassee , we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses."
"HIT IT."
How day to day everyday your content is the same as yesterday and will be tomorrow. Nothing has really changed since yesterday yet every show is like BREAKING NEWS!!!
agree, all click bait, will just ignore this kind of contents.
Yup. The sky falls on the car market every day 😂
You're not wrong.
I agree. These guys are pitiful
@@brokecryptominertotally agree
In the not to distant past you could pick up an F150 fairly well loaded for about 40 or 45k and ford was giving rebates and 0% financing for 60 months. I think we better get a whole lot closer to that before anyone is going to be buying new.
It's still very early. They'll really start sweating come July.
Not seeing much price drop here where I live. Especially none on the Toyota, Honda and Subaru, and that's the three I'm looking at!
By their numbers, the prices of two of those three went up. So yeah…
Thank you! I really enjoy you two telling the secrets of the auto dealerships and I feel you give me an advantage dealing with them when I buy a car. I don't mind them making a profit but I don't want to get ripped off.
This ⬆️
I’m in the process of trying to buy a used Toyota Corolla. Your help is proving very helpful. Thank you🤗🇨🇦
Lexus prices still holding though which is what im looking for.
Commercials in local dealers in San Antonio were showing 12% and 10% below MSRP for Dodge, Ram and Jeep.
Was looking at a Honda passport, dealership in Chicago is giving 0% Apr but you have to buy the vehicle in Msrp.
Not enough to offset ridiculous prices
Do these numbers also apply to Canada? If not, where could I find that info? Great content BTW!
A furniture store called overstock is closing a store near me and everything is 50% off and store is still full and they trying to clear it out to close it i went there a week later and everything is still there no ones shopping there its still to expensive smh on the other hand a family dollar had a liquidation sale fof 90% off the store was empty in a couple days! Maybe cars need to drop prices more!!!
I think the new tax 500 h and the tx 550 h plus is overpriced. What do you think ?
All the lower prices are cars that Suck
This is very deceiving; it happens every year from December to March. March is the lowest price on cars, and the prices are cyclical.
This markups by all brands were ridiculous
My local Ford dealer has about 50 new trucks in stock and can’t sell them and aren’t offering any discounts. I’ve been in there 3 times over the past few months and they won’t budge. Wild to me
When the lease was up on my 2020 Ranger I shopped it around and got a cheque fot $5000 over residual. The dealer marked it up another $5000 and put it on the lot. That shows prices have gone right out of whack.
Where are these places because here in New York City prices are still very high.
Need assistance: I should pay $31415 2023 Nissan Rogue SV? and/or which hybrid SUV should I purchase? are Hybrid worth the cost?
Unfortunately cars are loaded up with unnecessary crap. Example, staying in your own lane is driving 101 - I don’t need lane assistance. My last 3 vehicles had sun roofs that I never used but were “included” in the trim level.
All the new electronic junk in vehicles drives the prices up, and the more electronics, the more chance for failure. I don't want any of that junk. And I want an actual key to start the vehicle, not a push button start.
It's exactly why a 2024 Mazda3 with a manual transmission is MSRP'd around $30k. Go with an automatic transmission and the price can drop down to the $22-23k range. Mazda put the stick on the "Premium S" trim level ONLY.
This is why I just picked up a base '23 WRX. None of that added crap. Bare bones as hell. If it only got rid of the touch screens it'd be perfect.
I went to my local jeep dealer yesterday that dealership first lowered the msrp 6k but are adding a add on of $1,367.00 to the lowered price, so that dealership is still inflating prices even though they are giving a discount. I left I can wait longer.
Love your channel! Unfortunately I have seen titles like this for the past 3 years....No crash yet..
it's a typical youtube clickbait channel. they're not your friend LOL
@@voodoodisco I guess they make money from the click paint titles
Our family mini van (and our only car) was just totaled by getting rear ended... so we're just stuck in a spot of having to buy asap.... any suggestions?
I didn’t see Lexus on that list?
What was absurd was the price increases a couple of years ago. These price drops barely move the needle for me but highlights just how over priced they were.
That might be the case for all the US except in Miami lol cars are pricey and barely any discounts
Hot selling Honda CRV Sport L is already selling for $1-2k below MSRP in my area. 1 month back, dealers were only selling above MSRP plus accessories
Just spent $2300 in repairs instead of buying a new overpriced auto with outrageous interest rates.
Congratulations. Did similar on a 2005 vehicle back about 5 years ago. The plan has worked fine thus far.
Let’s hope u didn’t waste on it junk 😂
Here in mid Maine, prices have not dropped as much as you think it has for domestic..
You can go to a dodge dealership and get a better price then car edge price
Good trendline. Yes, I am seeing it locally, now. I'll see where we are at in May 2025.
Yes I echo the thoughts on this thread but these prices are nowhere near lower enough. The prices that they were trying to charge were gouging consumers for the last year or more maybe 20% 25%. The sticker prices are crazy high with no justification so 12% I remember going to the dealerships and getting deals under invoice because of the marketing dollars they still had for cars that they wanted to move and those are regularly around 10 or 12% so this is nothing as far as I'm concerned, another guy that posted about holding out what you got yep hold on because it's gonna go
The only changes I've seen over the past 6 months are the removal of market adjustments (additional dealer profit).
WHERE??
Which month is end of quarter? Is it calendar year or financial year?
Don't buy until gets 50% down.
In Toronto Canada still only 5k off Rubicons
Sales guy said still no manufacturer discounts.
Maybe only in the U.S have better discount.
Problem is people still know they are way way overpriced.
Since the pandemic, prices were artificially inflated by over 30%.
Even if they do a markdown- at this point- you’re still overspending due to the higher interest rates.
There’s a tremendous difference between a 3% and a 8%.
A lot of people with trash credit are seeing 10% or higher.
@PassportBrosBusinessClass-If you go back further than the pandemic to the time that Elon Musk and his EV's started showing up you will see what real screwing the consumer is all about. PS if a manufacturers plant is in the USA and happens to be in the same state where you live AND is only a 1/2 hour drive from the lot to the dealership, why is freight $2000+ ?
The high cost of new cars and trucks along with increased insurance cost will keep me driving my older car and fixing items to keep it on the road. Even my mechanic has seen an increase with his clients to keep their vehicles.
Great video guys! I feel sorry for anyone who bought a dodge in December. Ouch.
What’s your prediction for winter sales on trucks??
No, some markets, like the one I live in, smaller city, a 45+ minute drive to the outskirts of where there is more competition and you will pay more but you're used to paying more for everything when there isn't very much competition. And Toyota, you can't even count that brand as competition anymore if you want a lower price because they still aren't making any deals.
You think I can get a deal on a Tucson SEL convenience pkg now ?
no, I have been in the market for buying new cars for months. I bought 3 for the family. Yes they were toyota's and lexus products so they wont go down. However, I truly shopped around and they are all the same prices. My last purchase was March. I am looking at websites in my area and the prices are still the same. Exactly the same with the ridiculous add on's above MSRP. I'm sure it will go down, but haven't seen it.
That's funny cuz I'm seeing Zero movement when it comes to Dodge Ram prices. I leased my Ram in February 2020 with $0 down for 27 months at $380 per month. Now for the same exact truck in 2024 they want me to do a 39-month lease with $1,500 down with a payment of $690 per month
Car dealers in my area are overflowing with new and used cars. That tells me that these cars are still over priced.
Wow-so the door edger guards and nitro fill tires went down from 600 to 530 bucks. Can't wait to get my checkbook out and get out there! Have they dropped the price of the 1200 dollar documentation too or the LoJack. Yeah that'll make me buy. BS BS and more BS!!!
The difference is between transaction price. And posted price very different things.
The end of the quarter is definitely the best time to buy. Just not the end of this quarter or next quarter or the quarter after that. Maybe Q4
This is data on average transaction price of all vehicles sold. Unless we know the exact mix of vehicles sold, it could simply indicate a shift towards lower MSRP vehicles (selling more Civics vs Accords or lower trims vs higher trims) for cash-strapped consumers.
Are some states not doing as well as others?
I don't really consider Stellantis vehicles to be Domestic.
I work at a Hyundai dealership in Indiana, we were selling Palisades for $1000 under invoice this week. Also, Hyundai was offering $1750-$2000 rebates on top of that. There are some very good deals out there to be had.
How the times have changed
Buckle up folks, the car market rollercoaster is finally going DOWN! This is exactly the news I've been waiting for - sounds like Dodge is SLASHING prices (12% drop in 3 months is insane!). Time to call those dealerships and see who's got the best deals
The most expensive car you can buy is the wrong one. I limit my brands to Toyota, Mazda, and Subaru. There are no guarantees in life but these are probably safer bets for long term use.